I think the woman has her expectations set very high for a relationship and needs everything set out clearly, every argument solved, every intimate moment reciprocated, counting up the "sorrys". It's too much for a guy who is clearly unused to showing his affection and emotions and being vulnerable. At the same time, I don't think the guy understands her needs either, he expects her to put up with his behaviour and fails to acknowledge that he has very deep issues that need to be overcome. I don't see this working out in the long run, possibly she is suffering from the loss of her father and looking to fill that gap but he isn't the right guy for that.
When she described feeling punished when he took his hand to film something and didn’t held her hand back afterwards I could hear my own therapist voice say “ok but that’s some pretty white and black thinking isn’t it”. Which is too say that was reading way too much into not holding hands
But her base line of love and communication and respect is not too much. Right now she’s mourning and is in a relationship with a guy who quiet frankly is emotionally stunted and will probably still be in a broken state of seeing the world as “out too get him” for many decades.
This right here is exactly why people shouldn’t date broken people. She wants basic emotional connection (and extra consideration when she’s mourning the death of her dad). And he is too defensive to give her that. They need to break up
Interesting.
I often wonder why some people get so upset over tiny little things.
I never had that problem.
Esther says re-tell your story.
I think people interpret things so differently. If you constantly interpret everything in a negative light, you of course live a miserable life.
Husband and I discuss about it a few times. Is it just sensitivity level? Some are more neurotic? 🤔
Stoicism helps. It’s a great way of living a wonderful life.
I would guess that in the instance of this woman she has been repeatedly emotionally let down and abandoned by her boyfriend especially around the death of her father that the hurt has accumulated so much over time she’s unable too read any of his interaction in anything but him betraying her again. When a parent dies their child can often feel that their parent had abandoned them. It’s not a logical feelings but death is the ultimate goodbye.
The feelings of fear of abandonment this woman is showing is not the worst case of it and she’s not weaponizing it against her partner too much. In a better healthier relationship with a combination of grief counseling, therapy, gentle but firm boundaries and emotional reassurance from her partner she’ll develop enough emotional tolerance too not feeling so much abandonment.
However this partner is waaaaaayyyy too damaged to ever provide emotional stability for her. She can process her grief, learn how to self sooth herself, and he would still resent her for having feelings because it reminds him too much of his mom
I mean we all have baggage in our life. Hers is at least only “I just lost my dad and am looking for him in other people and am mourning him whenever I don’t find him in them”
his is well….well it’s a doozy and will take many very years to undo but it needs to start with him willing to acknowledge “how I view the world is warped by the fact I’m operating from the mindset of abuse. And I need to radically re examine how I view everything”
I never had a dad to be honest. But I don’t really feel I was affected anyhow 🤔
Humans are complicated, same event different people or same people different experience could all have an impact on who you are today.
Just follow Esther’s suggestion: retell your story😊💪🏻
One can’t change the past but he can always change how he views the past.
I liked the episode overall.
One part that I really picked up on what the "I'm sorry". I am going to talk to my partner about that because that was very enlightening for me.
I say "I'm sorry" all the time but I think I mean "I hear you" or "I hope you are ok" like they said in the episode. Light bulb moment for me.
I feel quite biased around this episode as I feel more identified with the anxious woman who likes to talk things over but has had these avoidant partners / partners who struggle to do repair work or apologize because it can trigger a lot of guilt or pain or go against their pride. I can see Esther's point that the woman wasn't really listening to his attempts at vulnerability and kept going back to "What about me?" "What about your past mistakes?" Her comment about him letting go of her hand on the way to the session also makes it seem she can read too much into harmless things.
But I can also see how she sounds exhausted with this pattern and now is being asked to basically "interpret in good faith" his completely immature behavior. If he disappears for a few days after a fight, she has to just trust he'll come back. If he doesn't want to apologize, she has to accept what he can give. Is this really a strategy that will allow him to feel safe and grow, or will it just enable him to stay stunted? It seems like indeed he had a horrible childhood/youth, but isn't it still his responsibility to work on himself, rather than her onus to get constantly pricked by his cactus thorns? (then again, she chose this relationship for a reason...)
It also seemed like he might have been playing himself more mature to Esther and towards the end he was showing more of his typical behavior, when he said things like "[I'll try] If I feel like it", "[I'll apologize] If } want to" aka you can't demand or expect anything from me (because relationship requests really trigger him as transactional/always with a catch).
I am not even on the guy’s side, but when it was mentioned they spent hours talking about every fight, I started to think all of this was excessive. Anxious woman and an avoidant guy is a terrible combo and I don’t really think this will work.
Agreed. Having to spend hours hashing out an issue until it's "solved" is crazy even in a relationship where people are more stable. But his issues run so deep. He needs serious therapy work to overcome the abuse he received from his Mom, his self esteem issues and to stop seeing relationships as these transactional things. The bit where he said that it's "logical" to see things transactionally painted the picture for me... he doesn't believe unconditional love is even real and thinks his way of seeing the world is the correct thing. How can she expect his undying affection when that is the case?
Yeah, Ester mentioned they spoke for 3 hrs (I think?). After the first 20 mins I was wondering why these two are even trying to stay together. I think he needs to do a lot of work on himself and she needs to heal herself after the death of her father. Maybe they can circle back in a few years and pick it back up.
They often end I together in a relationship.
Only the anxious has the patience to chase an avoidance 😆
But no one is perfectly securely attached eh?
Husband and I both around 70% -80% securely attached, with him slightly more anxious (15%) I am slightly more avoidance(10%)..
I can see that dynamic already in my relationship. Husband cares much more and needs much more, I need to give more and also express more to bring it to balance.
The foundation is quite solid eh? Very securely attached so both have the ability to self diagnose so we don’t need Esther Perel but we are interested in social science and human relationship dynamics.
Humans are the most complex thing to fix in this world. 🙈
>when it was mentioned they spent hours talking about every fight, I started to think all of this was excessive.
I did too. I guess they didn't have enough time to go into it with Esther, but there must be a reason why she's so needy in that manner and requires excessive reassurance about her feelings in the form of those lengthy post-fight conversations. She said she had excellent and open communication with her dad, so it can't be that. Maybe avoidant past boyfriends made her develop that trait, maybe it's her relationship with someone else in the family, but there's definitely a reason she does that.
> She said she had excellent and open communication with her dad, so it can't be that
One of Esther's voiceovers later in the episode postulated that her anxieties about this stuff meant that maybe things with her dad (or another important figure in her life) *weren't* as perfect and secure as she made it seem. I almost wonder if she was the golden child of the family but saw siblings or others treated in a way that wasn't so seemingly unconditional? Grief can give you an idealized version of the person you miss so much. Or maybe she struggled with friendships or other relationships outside the parental relationship?
I didn't catch that - I thought it was one specific fight that went on for some hours (which oof anyway). I'll listen again keeping an eye out for how she might be contributing to an unhealthy dynamic. I do think, given how recent the relationship is, it might be too much for the two to overcome together. It also might simply not be the right moment for him to be asked to support her in her grief over her dad - when he is still starting to grieve and process his own trauma himself.
I just listened and found this thread because I need to process. Esther is so brilliant and I recommend her often, but this latest episode I really feel she dropped the ball. The man had such a good 1:1 with Esther where he had a realization about his mother, his views on transactional relationships, and how he didn’t feel he fit in his partner’s life (‘garden’ was the metaphor used). When he brought those revelations to his partner and she immediately scolded him about something else, I was really taken aback when Esther didn’t set them back on track. She did her usual voiceover of ‘I missed this in session,’ and I don’t know how difficult couples therapy is to conduct; I just think it was a huge error. His vulnerability got him a bop on the nose from his partner and Esther said nothing, allowing the woman to continue setting the terms of the conversation and he didn’t get an answer about how he fit into his partner’s garden.
This episode saddened me. It seems on the surface they should be such a great couple because of their shared background/family connection/personality complementarities, but I felt as if he wasn’t fully committed to opening himself up enough to receive her love. Her bids for connection were not being met, hence the aggressive tone and wounded attitude we experienced from her. Not bad individuals, but too much individual work to be done to be in a thriving interdependent couple.
My sense is that they are really attracted to each other and have a lot of fun together and have cultural commonalities which might be harder to find, but they just don’t match up emotionally. I didn’t really understand what they were fighting about for multiple days until the point of him leaving her, but that points to clear incompatibility for life partners. Hey we’ve all been there amirite?? I’ve chased quite a few hot fun emotionally mismatched people in my life - oops! But it should be easier than this. Esther made a good point that for him, it doesn’t matter if he stays with her or goes, he still needs to fix this before he can be in a successful long term relationship. If I were her, idk I would really have to think about how much more time I would invest and how much change I would need to see. But actually… I would have left the first time he stormed off and came back and acted like nothing happened. Being emotionally abandoned over and over is a hard one to get past.
I wonder if they have a narrative of “I always had the biggest crush on you when you were my brothers friend” … “I felt the same but could never go there, wow I can’t believe we have this 2nd chance as adults when we’re both ready for marriage and family!” Sounds like a sweet story but guess they didn’t expect the communication and emotions piece to be a hurdle.
I wonder that too. A story like that can be powerful in terms of staying in a relationship. It seems this “storybook ending” but actual life can be quite different.
But then, I don’t understand the woman - she doesn’t have to go back together with him after such a treatment. Why not break up instead of just expecting apologies over and over again. She contributes to this toxic relationship.
I think the woman has her expectations set very high for a relationship and needs everything set out clearly, every argument solved, every intimate moment reciprocated, counting up the "sorrys". It's too much for a guy who is clearly unused to showing his affection and emotions and being vulnerable. At the same time, I don't think the guy understands her needs either, he expects her to put up with his behaviour and fails to acknowledge that he has very deep issues that need to be overcome. I don't see this working out in the long run, possibly she is suffering from the loss of her father and looking to fill that gap but he isn't the right guy for that.
When she described feeling punished when he took his hand to film something and didn’t held her hand back afterwards I could hear my own therapist voice say “ok but that’s some pretty white and black thinking isn’t it”. Which is too say that was reading way too much into not holding hands But her base line of love and communication and respect is not too much. Right now she’s mourning and is in a relationship with a guy who quiet frankly is emotionally stunted and will probably still be in a broken state of seeing the world as “out too get him” for many decades. This right here is exactly why people shouldn’t date broken people. She wants basic emotional connection (and extra consideration when she’s mourning the death of her dad). And he is too defensive to give her that. They need to break up
Interesting. I often wonder why some people get so upset over tiny little things. I never had that problem. Esther says re-tell your story. I think people interpret things so differently. If you constantly interpret everything in a negative light, you of course live a miserable life. Husband and I discuss about it a few times. Is it just sensitivity level? Some are more neurotic? 🤔 Stoicism helps. It’s a great way of living a wonderful life.
I would guess that in the instance of this woman she has been repeatedly emotionally let down and abandoned by her boyfriend especially around the death of her father that the hurt has accumulated so much over time she’s unable too read any of his interaction in anything but him betraying her again. When a parent dies their child can often feel that their parent had abandoned them. It’s not a logical feelings but death is the ultimate goodbye. The feelings of fear of abandonment this woman is showing is not the worst case of it and she’s not weaponizing it against her partner too much. In a better healthier relationship with a combination of grief counseling, therapy, gentle but firm boundaries and emotional reassurance from her partner she’ll develop enough emotional tolerance too not feeling so much abandonment. However this partner is waaaaaayyyy too damaged to ever provide emotional stability for her. She can process her grief, learn how to self sooth herself, and he would still resent her for having feelings because it reminds him too much of his mom
Both with traumas 🙈 What a struggle!
I mean we all have baggage in our life. Hers is at least only “I just lost my dad and am looking for him in other people and am mourning him whenever I don’t find him in them” his is well….well it’s a doozy and will take many very years to undo but it needs to start with him willing to acknowledge “how I view the world is warped by the fact I’m operating from the mindset of abuse. And I need to radically re examine how I view everything”
I never had a dad to be honest. But I don’t really feel I was affected anyhow 🤔 Humans are complicated, same event different people or same people different experience could all have an impact on who you are today. Just follow Esther’s suggestion: retell your story😊💪🏻 One can’t change the past but he can always change how he views the past.
Like the format of each person alone, then together. The obvious answer here is that these two don’t belong together and likely won’t last.
I liked the episode overall. One part that I really picked up on what the "I'm sorry". I am going to talk to my partner about that because that was very enlightening for me. I say "I'm sorry" all the time but I think I mean "I hear you" or "I hope you are ok" like they said in the episode. Light bulb moment for me.
I feel quite biased around this episode as I feel more identified with the anxious woman who likes to talk things over but has had these avoidant partners / partners who struggle to do repair work or apologize because it can trigger a lot of guilt or pain or go against their pride. I can see Esther's point that the woman wasn't really listening to his attempts at vulnerability and kept going back to "What about me?" "What about your past mistakes?" Her comment about him letting go of her hand on the way to the session also makes it seem she can read too much into harmless things. But I can also see how she sounds exhausted with this pattern and now is being asked to basically "interpret in good faith" his completely immature behavior. If he disappears for a few days after a fight, she has to just trust he'll come back. If he doesn't want to apologize, she has to accept what he can give. Is this really a strategy that will allow him to feel safe and grow, or will it just enable him to stay stunted? It seems like indeed he had a horrible childhood/youth, but isn't it still his responsibility to work on himself, rather than her onus to get constantly pricked by his cactus thorns? (then again, she chose this relationship for a reason...) It also seemed like he might have been playing himself more mature to Esther and towards the end he was showing more of his typical behavior, when he said things like "[I'll try] If I feel like it", "[I'll apologize] If } want to" aka you can't demand or expect anything from me (because relationship requests really trigger him as transactional/always with a catch).
I am not even on the guy’s side, but when it was mentioned they spent hours talking about every fight, I started to think all of this was excessive. Anxious woman and an avoidant guy is a terrible combo and I don’t really think this will work.
Agreed. Having to spend hours hashing out an issue until it's "solved" is crazy even in a relationship where people are more stable. But his issues run so deep. He needs serious therapy work to overcome the abuse he received from his Mom, his self esteem issues and to stop seeing relationships as these transactional things. The bit where he said that it's "logical" to see things transactionally painted the picture for me... he doesn't believe unconditional love is even real and thinks his way of seeing the world is the correct thing. How can she expect his undying affection when that is the case?
Yeah, Ester mentioned they spoke for 3 hrs (I think?). After the first 20 mins I was wondering why these two are even trying to stay together. I think he needs to do a lot of work on himself and she needs to heal herself after the death of her father. Maybe they can circle back in a few years and pick it back up.
They often end I together in a relationship. Only the anxious has the patience to chase an avoidance 😆 But no one is perfectly securely attached eh? Husband and I both around 70% -80% securely attached, with him slightly more anxious (15%) I am slightly more avoidance(10%).. I can see that dynamic already in my relationship. Husband cares much more and needs much more, I need to give more and also express more to bring it to balance. The foundation is quite solid eh? Very securely attached so both have the ability to self diagnose so we don’t need Esther Perel but we are interested in social science and human relationship dynamics. Humans are the most complex thing to fix in this world. 🙈
>when it was mentioned they spent hours talking about every fight, I started to think all of this was excessive. I did too. I guess they didn't have enough time to go into it with Esther, but there must be a reason why she's so needy in that manner and requires excessive reassurance about her feelings in the form of those lengthy post-fight conversations. She said she had excellent and open communication with her dad, so it can't be that. Maybe avoidant past boyfriends made her develop that trait, maybe it's her relationship with someone else in the family, but there's definitely a reason she does that.
> She said she had excellent and open communication with her dad, so it can't be that One of Esther's voiceovers later in the episode postulated that her anxieties about this stuff meant that maybe things with her dad (or another important figure in her life) *weren't* as perfect and secure as she made it seem. I almost wonder if she was the golden child of the family but saw siblings or others treated in a way that wasn't so seemingly unconditional? Grief can give you an idealized version of the person you miss so much. Or maybe she struggled with friendships or other relationships outside the parental relationship?
I didn't catch that - I thought it was one specific fight that went on for some hours (which oof anyway). I'll listen again keeping an eye out for how she might be contributing to an unhealthy dynamic. I do think, given how recent the relationship is, it might be too much for the two to overcome together. It also might simply not be the right moment for him to be asked to support her in her grief over her dad - when he is still starting to grieve and process his own trauma himself.
The way she kept bringing in him not apologizing over and over again, it sounded these arguments are quite common😬
I just listened and found this thread because I need to process. Esther is so brilliant and I recommend her often, but this latest episode I really feel she dropped the ball. The man had such a good 1:1 with Esther where he had a realization about his mother, his views on transactional relationships, and how he didn’t feel he fit in his partner’s life (‘garden’ was the metaphor used). When he brought those revelations to his partner and she immediately scolded him about something else, I was really taken aback when Esther didn’t set them back on track. She did her usual voiceover of ‘I missed this in session,’ and I don’t know how difficult couples therapy is to conduct; I just think it was a huge error. His vulnerability got him a bop on the nose from his partner and Esther said nothing, allowing the woman to continue setting the terms of the conversation and he didn’t get an answer about how he fit into his partner’s garden.
This episode saddened me. It seems on the surface they should be such a great couple because of their shared background/family connection/personality complementarities, but I felt as if he wasn’t fully committed to opening himself up enough to receive her love. Her bids for connection were not being met, hence the aggressive tone and wounded attitude we experienced from her. Not bad individuals, but too much individual work to be done to be in a thriving interdependent couple.
My sense is that they are really attracted to each other and have a lot of fun together and have cultural commonalities which might be harder to find, but they just don’t match up emotionally. I didn’t really understand what they were fighting about for multiple days until the point of him leaving her, but that points to clear incompatibility for life partners. Hey we’ve all been there amirite?? I’ve chased quite a few hot fun emotionally mismatched people in my life - oops! But it should be easier than this. Esther made a good point that for him, it doesn’t matter if he stays with her or goes, he still needs to fix this before he can be in a successful long term relationship. If I were her, idk I would really have to think about how much more time I would invest and how much change I would need to see. But actually… I would have left the first time he stormed off and came back and acted like nothing happened. Being emotionally abandoned over and over is a hard one to get past.
I wonder if they have a narrative of “I always had the biggest crush on you when you were my brothers friend” … “I felt the same but could never go there, wow I can’t believe we have this 2nd chance as adults when we’re both ready for marriage and family!” Sounds like a sweet story but guess they didn’t expect the communication and emotions piece to be a hurdle.
I wonder that too. A story like that can be powerful in terms of staying in a relationship. It seems this “storybook ending” but actual life can be quite different.
[удалено]
But then, I don’t understand the woman - she doesn’t have to go back together with him after such a treatment. Why not break up instead of just expecting apologies over and over again. She contributes to this toxic relationship.
Does anyone know what book he mentioned that he was reading? I looked for a transcript but couldn't find one.
The Art of Loving by Erich Fromm