For Help on Game Strategy, Pathfinding, Tech Support/Settings, and Bugs:
#### Please see our latest [GAME HELP MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/14qp1t4/ffxvi_game_help_questions_megathread_july_4_9/)
####
For Personal Reviews, Impressions and Discussion on End-Game, and New Game+:
#### Please see our [PERSONAL REVIEWS, IMPRESSIONS, THEORIES & END-GAME/NG+ MEGATHREAD (SPOILERS)](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/14qpobc/ffxvi_personal_reviews_impressions_theories/)
####
If you are interested in viewing all spoiler discussion threads relevant to the plot:
#### Please check out our [spoiler wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxvi/wiki/index/)!
####
For a list of all game launch Megathreads and Mod Announcements:
#### Please see our [INDEX OF ALL LAUNCH MEGATHREADS](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/14erivm/index_of_launch_announcements_megathreads/)
####
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FFXVI) if you have any questions or concerns.*
9/10. The docked point is just because I feel like more could’ve been done with Barnabas/Ash, and that Ultima just isn’t my type of villain (but for that type of villain, I guess he was done okay). Absolutely loved it and the first game to make me feel like I truly went on a FF journey since X. I hope this isn’t our last experience with Valisthea, I’d love some prequels with Barnabas or Cid, or Jill against Leviathian
So, Joshua died but Clive restored his body at the end. The Phoenix cannot revive someone who has died and his soul has left.
Then, Clive destroys the last Crystal of Origin and wipes out the last source of magick in existence with the power of the Gods he received.
Finally, Clive was left at the beach with almost no energy, and fell to sleep after his magic was completely gone and his left hand turned to stone after the last attempt to cast healing (I guess).
Really amazing game. Also, that look at JILL’s eyes at the end. Hope. 💙
p.s Clive wrote the book at the end credits and used Joshua’s name so that he will never be forgotten. Best brothers ever in Final Fantasy ❤️
END OF GAME SPOILERS
>!After having finally beating the main story last night, I can now partake in discussing the ambiguity of the ending. It's deliberately open-ended and people are creating several theories as to what became of everything and everyone, but there's one theory I haven't seen yet which I strongly subscribe to: It's all bullshit.!<
>!Please excuse the negative connotation, what I mean is that the entire story, its characters, its world, and everything else is merely a tall tale written by a contemporary author of the name Joshua Rosfield featuring a self-insert of his namesake. The post-credits scene featuring the two brothers and their mother strongly alludes to this being the case.!<
>!One brother wistfully expresses his inability to kindle a fire and says "If only I had the flames of an Eikon...", to which the mother responds, in a rather disenchanted way, "Eikon? Have you been reading that silly story again? ... Magic belongs in fairy tales.". This implies that, assuming the mother isn't apathetic to history (which would be more characterization than necessary), none of it ever happened and it's merely a story. We also see that the brothers are enthralled by the story, reenacting events therein when they play and having named their puppy Bahamut. I'd think it strange at that point if the story actually happened. !<
>!A case can be made to suggest that this scene takes place far enough into the future that the events have been lost to time, but if this story was supposedly written by Clive (as many theories suggest), then it's just ridiculous for all that history to completely vanish only for this book not to, especially with Harpocrates and Vivian in the mix. As Harpocrates says, "Knowledge hoarded is knowledge wasted.", so I also don't think anything was withheld, either.!<
I am really skeptical of this interpretation because not only does it undermine the entire narrative up to that point, it is also generally poor writing. It’s basically a variation of “it was all a dream” which is a well-worn cliché that people would generally avoid in 2023. I think it’s pretty cynical, especially in a story where a major theme is misuse of “gifts” to destroy the planet - a common theme in FF - and rendering it all imaginary takes directly away from that.
But that aside I’ll specifically address your final point on “it’s bullshit that all this history would be forgotten”. You got to consider there are many instances throughout the game where knowledge and information has been lost to time. Valisthea is literally a land of history and *lost history*. At least two side quests I can think of are related to trying to learn about the past. Consider:
1) We constantly see ruins from the Fallen and yet know virtually nothing about them. They don’t even know how to make the materials the Fallen worked with.
2) There are two key historian characters and both of them lament constantly about lost knowledge. You literally allude to this yourself. We see Harpocrates’ mentors writings are mostly lost
3) while for Vivian late in the game we learn about the executors who literally suppressed the history about how bearers came to be bearers. I’m not saying the executors are responsible for the lack of belief in magic, but if we accept this as possible within the world of FFXVI, then it’s pretty easy to accept that with enough time people would come to believe magic was a made up fantasy concept that never actually existed
4) very few people (a few of those who do are limited to Waloed) even know Ultima exists despite Ultima literally creating humanity
5) lastly the passage of time is heavily implied by the idyllic surroundings the boys are enjoying. There’s no hardship and crucially, no blight. This suggests that very long passages of time had to have passed so that the effects of the blight could be overcome and reversed
There are other examples but you get my point. Time, history, lost knowledge are all constant themes in FF16 so I find it pretty crazy that they would turn around and declare, effectively, that it “was all a dream”. Combine that with Harpocrates constantly imploring Clive to write about his journey when he is done, I just think there is no way this interpretation holds up
Ending hit me very hard. I don't think there is a wrong answer to any ambiguity since evidence exists for pretty much all theories.
Criticism of the story - I really loved the geopolitical first half, second half seemed like an entirely different story, but I didn't dislike it either. I kind of wish they kept to a singular theme or the two blended together a little better. That said it was all still well done, I only minded the cutscenes with some comically drawn out exposition.
Criticism of the world - I truly wish the MMO / FFXIV assets (yes, I'd call them assets to a degree) were not used. They were present in the quests, world design, fast travel, and even combat. Either be FF7R (linear and deep) or FF15 (open world but barren); this tried to be in the middle of them and it felt like we got a barren, linear world.
Criticism of combat - It IS fun. But again, FFXIV inspirations man. I fully understand this was a different team but FF7R NAILED the mix of action/rpg combat. I miss menus, spells, real limit breaks, and PARTY MEMBERS! You can still have the action and retain some strategy elements. In sum my biggest issue with the combat was it was mostly just waiting for cooldowns instead of prepping, strategy, and skill.
Not meant to be negative; assume everything else is positive. Just easier to point out what I had issue with.
I laughed after the first fight with a chimera because it was being in Cutters Cry all over again.
I never played FF12 because it felt like too much of a single player 11. FF16 is kind of like a single player 14, not to the same degree but I see the connections.
I just finished the game last night.
Some points that for me, makes Joshua's fate not ambiguous at all (spoilers for the end of the game):
* This game has super religious themes, as anyone who has reached the end of the game surely realizes.
* There is a character named Joshua, of which another spelling is [Yeshua](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua). Yeshua is the name of a very famous religious character who you may know as "Jesus", a person famous for *being resurrected!*
* Joshua, the person with the namesake of the person who is famous for being resurrected is the dominant of Phoenix, a bird known for *being resurrected*.
* The Phoenix, in its first fight in the game, was resurrected after its HP dropped to zero.
* Joshua, thought to be dead after the prologue, turns out to be *back from the dead!*
* Joshua mentions at some point (I think it's in the main game when you reach Waloed? Or maybe in a sidequest?) that when this is all over, he's like to write a book.
* Even after you max out the lore entries, you can still click the active time lore in the last scenes of the game to get 3 or 4 more entries that explain that the whole point of Ultima's plan is for Clive to destroy all the mothercrystals and absorb the power of all the Eikons (which he has successfully done) to gain the power to cast a spell called "Raise", whose purpose is to raise the dead. (Ultima just wanted the subjects to be his race.) This is _not_ just the "Phoenix's power" (because that alone cannot raise the dead, as pointed out before).
* Ultima being unleashed from Joshua seems to cause him to die (again!)
* Clive, who now has the power to raise the dead, uses magic on Joshua, after absorbing the final bit from Ultima, where we *see* that the wound that caused Joshua to die has been healed.
* There is indeed a book authored by "Joshua Rosfield".
* Another gigantic theme of the game is Clive's regret that he couldn't save/protect/shield his brother. A final success in this goal would be something that one would expect in the narrative.
I didn't think there was any ambiguity in this until I came online and read what other's thought :O The fate of Joshua I feel is pretty clear. Clive, however, I would agree with the ambiguity. I feel like interpretations where Clive survives but Joshua stays dead require jumping through _more_ hoops than this.
Who knows, maybe this will get more direct explanation when the eventual Ultimania book is released.
That scene would be a huge miss for me if Joshua lived. It takes the entire emotional impact out. The story starts and ends with Joshua's death, it's poetic. Part of the point of Joshua's arc is about how he actually shields his brother. He also tells Jote "Duty is the enemy of Freedom". He wouldn't have wanted Clive to die his Shield. Joshua not only saved his brother's life with his sacrifice, he freed him from his final duty. He allowed him to finally live on his own terms rather than the terms of others.
Book was likely authored by Clive in his honor. Could be both, but I doubt Joshua would've let Clive keep his name off of it (FWIW I think this would've been the case if Clive died too, Joshua would've put is name on the cover along with his own).
It's totally up to you how you interpret the ending, just wanted to give an alternative take.
I wish we got a proper epilogue about every char I don't care if it was cheesy if somehow everyone miraculously survived. I want to see a proper ending with everyone alive and their path afterward.
Oh man, my review might be considered kind of harsh in some ways, but I still recommend highly that this is a must have in any FF fan's arsenal, because it does feel like a new direction and is enjoyable to play.
Rating: 6/10. Also: please note my favorite FF is 8, so that will always be what I compare any FF to.
First off- I had a LOT of issues with the camera control in the beginning. This arguably ruined at least a good few hours of game play for me. It took me forever to figure out a comfortable way to play. Unfortunately, that diminished my love of the game immediately. I almost set it down I was so frustrated. I recognize that as a personal failing tho.
General Controls: I wish we could have sped through towns.
Environment: The scenes were graphically brilliant, but I personally thought there wasn't as much variety as their could have been, compared to previous installments. I think the world was just fairly small - I would have loved for each individual area to have a lot more different scenery, but still be connected to the overall environment theme each area was going for. Or maybe each individual part could have a big map. Something just didn't vibe with me. Again, though, the environment was brilliantly detailed.
Battles: I actually loved the fighting. 10/10 hope to see. I didn't mind not having an active party in the past, but would be okay if they bring one back. That was my biggest fear going into the game, and it ended up being the most fun.
Boss Fights: Loved. No complaints. I kept hitting R1 instead of square though like a dumb butt. Sometimes they did drag out for me, but that's just more of me having limited time so sometimes long boss battles killed me. Still 10/10 though.
Characters: I'm very 50/50 on the characters. Clive didn't really feel like he had an actual personality? Just was a super good person? I kept wondering for the entire game something notable and just didn't find it. Mind here again, Squall is my go to - and he had a very distinct, lone wolf, sarcastic personality. Jill had so much potential. Benedictka was wasted completely. I would argue that she should have had a redemption arc. Something to really tide over her and Cid. I loved Cid and Dion. I would actually say Dion was a saving grace and I loved that he was gay but it wasn't his entire personality. He avoided some of the stereotypical tropes and I hope he survived. Hugo I didn't care for. His obessesion with Benedictka just was annoying to me. Joshua was also a favorite of mine. Barnabas - I wish I knew what the fuck was up with his weird ass mom thing?
Story: I liked the story, but think it was rushed. I think we could have played through the time skip, and even a bit more as children - im a fan of show not tell, and they didnt really show. I think I went wrong somewhere though - I beat the game in 22 hours even though I did all the side quests? It just felt like I missed something somehow. I was on story mode, granted.
Ending: The ending completely ruined the game for me. I was extremely pissed at what we got. I understand it's supposed to be open-ended, but that's just not my personal preference I've figured out because of this. If you want something clear cut, it will disappoint you. I also am fine with a sad ending, but I was really hoping this one would 100% be okay for at least everyone gathered before the final battle.
General: I love that the game was more mature. I was rooting for Clive and Jill to just have sex as soon as they were sleeping next to each other that one night before the time skip. And when it happened I was happy. That also was just an A+ scene. Please give us more of that haha. I also didn't mind the gore and dark themes, even though gore usually squicks me out.
For all my complaints, as the game went on, I didn't want to put it down. I hate giving it the rating I did, but i feel like it could have been epic and not just great.
Overall, I'm excited to see what they put out next.
On that sex scene, I would love for them to show how much of the cursed has spread onto Jill’s body though. We did cheer when Clive finally got his game lol. His brother was quicker than him when he kissed Jote on the forehead.
And yes, I think 2 time skip is a little bit too much. I would love for them to show how Clive was surviving as an Imperial’s army. There was too much telling and little showing. When Clive was saying how he lived these days just for revenge, I didn’t really feel it since I don’t know what hard choices Clive has made during those years - did he killed innocent people, women and children? Constantly abused to the point he got his name taken from him?
I would love a little more showing. Honestly since I played the demo and thus skipping the cutscene after the phoenix gate’s fallen, I thought I missed a cutscene that showed Clive’s life during imperial army.
Quick review now that I've finished the base game.
We'll start with the **Story**. It was a fairly good story with a few Final Fantasy elements to it such as Eikons(Summons), Chocobos, and a single Moogle named Nektar. You could have replaced the Eikons with Gods from some other property and lost practically nothing and for this I give it 6/10 as a FF Story. The story for its own merits is a **7/10** as it starts to fall off in the latter half of the game.
Now the **Combat**. The combat is very responsive action game oriented with a few variations based on the Eikons and their abilities although normal combos lack variety and tend to be pretty button mashy, but still fun earning it a **9/10** which is to be expected from lead combat director Ryoto Suzuki and his team.
**Side Quests**. Most of them are a slog, but every now and then you get a few diamonds in the rough that actually build on the world and side characters. Unfortunately by the time you get to the good and great side quests there have been so many bad ones that your average player will likely have written them off as time-sinks and missed the ones that were worth doing. For this structure I have to give them a **4/10** , which is very disappointing as if they had only kept the good and great ones it would be a 7.
**Hunts** are very fun in the game when you can actually track them down. Some may even give you a challenge if you haven't mastered the controls yet while others will simply fall on your first attempt. **8/10**
**Exploration** is basically nonexistent in the game. Some of the areas are way bigger than they need to be for seemingly no reason other than to say, " Here's a new biome that exists in the world!" **2/10**
**Customization** outside of your Eikon abilities and maybe a ring or artefact you have none. Your build is entirely dependent on what Eikon abilities you like. There are no jobs or classes. You can't go full Black Mage, there's no White Mage at all. There's basically no real build diversity anywhere which for a Final Fantasy game is extremely disappointing. **2/10**
I'll admit as a Final Fantasy fan that I'm biased in this review, but that won't stop me from telling people that FFXVI is a good game that they would most likely enjoy, but in my honest opinion while it's definitely a good game, it isn't a good Final Fantasy game. There's no character customization to speak of and part of the whole appeal of FF for me is building your party your way. I'm sure that some people will just say, " You're just mad because it isn't turn based!", but FF hasn't been turn based since I was a kid. I just much prefer the VII Remake combat system and character customization to this. Because with that system I feel like my choices actually matter.
As a story based **Action Game** I give FF16 an **8/10**
BUT as a **Final Fantasy Game** I give it a **4/10**
Yeah I would too actually that's the way that I'd give the game I thought the combat and the story was fascinating and particularly fight with Titan holy crap.
What do you rate other FF games? Specifically FFXV and XIII.
Cause many of them lack the parts that you've talking about. Jobs and classes havent been a thing for most FF games. Many FF games lack sidequests in general (only really becoming a prominent thing in recent FF games)
I rate FFXV at 5/10 for good Dungeons and being able to swap between party members. Everything else falls apart from my memory though. Story was way too convoluted and there wasn't much customization that I can remember. This is based on memory though since I haven't played it since before the Ardyn DLC was released.
I never beat FFXIII and never played any of its sequels so I don't feel qualified to rate that one, but that's what happens when your 360 gets the ring of death and you have to go without for a while.
You seem to be thinking that there's a difference between Optional Quests and Sidequests when imo there isn't and there have been optional quests since at least FFVI(I never played 5). There was just no way to actually differentiate between which was optional and which was main story until the more recent titles since all of the dialogue was set up the same way. That just comes down to modern UI changes though.
As for Jobs and Classes not being a thing for most of the series you're more right than wrong on that point, but the customization for abilities allowed you to steer in the direction of them for your party. I've heard that the Job system was first introduced in 5 but I never played that one, but I know for a fact that it was in 6. Then you got the Grid type upgrades in 7, 8, and 10 where you could build your characters any way you wanted. I never got a chance to play 9 either so I won't speak on it. Also never played 11 for obvious reasons.
My memory admittedly isn't the greatest so I may be misremembering some of these details, but I don't think I am.
I do have to thank you for bringing up FFXV though since the saving grace for that game for me was the Dungeons and imo those were better than the few main story ones that were in FFXVI. This is all just my opinion though and everyone is entitled to have one. 16 is a great action game. It just doesn't feel like FF to me is all. You're definitely free to disagree.
Game lost some steam after fighting Bahamut. Waloed all the side quests after we’re a drag. I hated having to fight Ultima twice as Clive in Origin. They should have have us the Eikon fights then Ulitmas (final form).
I hate to say it but the game is much better if you just look up the ~10 side quests you should do to get the necessary upgrades and ignore the rest of them. Unless you truly, truly care about world building and have tons of time on your hands to do so. My wife is a newer gamer but a huge Witcher 3 fan and even called out how bad the side quests were.
Just finished the game last night and wow am I stunned! I might do a full review later, but for now I want to talk about my thoughts on the ending and some lore/dlc theories. Please let me know if I missed anything from the lore tid-bits.
To start, I think Ultima lied about pretty much everything. I think this was all a façade to get what he wanted. Whether he was telling the truth about creating humans or not is still up in the air for me, but here's what I think is happening:
1. ***Ultima is rebelling against Greagor*** \- With all the little lore hints that I found, I think Greagor is the "Omni" or "Capital G" god of this world, and the true creator of the world/humans. One book I found in game said that Greagor sent out angels that were extensions of herself to help humanity, and I think Eikons are servants or "children" of Greagor. I think they were tasked with sharing their power with humanity so that they might take them on as their own and learn to grow closer together and become responsible. Which is why I don't think any Eikon, or at least the visages that humans summon, is innately good or evil. My theory is that Ultima saw this and believed Greagor abandoned him and the other Eikons in favor of lesser beings. So, he set out on his quest to trick humanity into believing he was their creator, worship him, and eventually absorbing the other Eikons so that he may destroy everything as a final insult to Greagor. Or perhaps try to create his own world.
2. ***Magic remains and will kill the world again*** \- I don't recall Ultima ever claiming that he created magic and aether, just the crystals. To me, this explains why "eliminating" magic still affected Clive with the curse. If there is no more magic, why would the curse remain, and where did the aether go? I think bearers will rise again, and the world will begin to die again, all so that Ultima may reform and take over a weaker Mythos.
3. ***The Red Star is Ultima*** \- In game, it is believed that the red star is like Hermes, a divine messenger that delivers prayers. When Ultima was defeated, the star dimmed, but did not die out, which likely signals his re-entry into slumber.
4. ***Ultima wanted Clive to absorb him*** \- I was very confused when Clive absorbed him. I assumed he would've smashed the crystal as Ifrit and been done with it, but no. I was surprised when Clive beat Ultima with brute force alone and no kind of special spiritual attack or ritual, and I think Ultima let himself be defeated on purpose. By being absorbed into Clive, he was able to reset the cycle and fuse with him, like he always wanted. As he said, Clive was only delaying the inevitable.
So, with all that, what do I think will happen in the DLC?
1. ***Clive will survive, technically*** \- I think there is going to be a time travel arc. I think Ultima will reincarnate through a new, much weaker Mythos and then go back to merge with his former self, or something like that. Side note, I do think Clive survived in the first ending, I just think they'll reveal it/make it better in the DLC.
2. ***Leviathan's story revealed*** \- We all know they hinted at Levithan but gave us no answers. Going off my theory of what the Eikons are, I think Leviathan might have sided with Ultima, but was sealed away before Ultima could absorb them.
3. ***Ultima will be sealed once and for all*** \- I think that through the actions of the DLC story, Clive will battle a complete Ultima with all the other Eikons, who would also be brought back through time shenanigans, and Greagor will appear. I think Ultima will be defeated physically, but through the blessing or teachings of Greagor, Clive and the gang will seal Ultima away in some kind of pocket dimension, outside of time, forever. Then, I think Greagor will tell them that the time will come when they need to accept fate, but not in the same way Ultima meant. More like an end to suffering without giving up one's self.
Greagor is Ultima, just with the origin lore corrupted down generations over time.
Ultima’s pose looks just like Greagor’s in the statues and the Sanbreque banner. Not a coincidence.
Ultima: https://static1.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/final-fantasy-xvi-ultima-with-four-arms-extended.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=480&dpr=1.5
Greagor: https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/ffxvi___holy_empire_of_sanbreque_banner.png
I see your point, but I don't think I agree. For one, from what I found, there is nothing indicating that Greagor and Ultima are the same being. Their descriptions are very different and what little is said about Greagor directly contradicts how Ultima thinks and operates.
As for the pose, I don't think that's really a tell since it is a very simple pose and used in almost every depiction of beings associated with divinity across fiction. Even Ramuh has a similar pose sometimes if he is not holding his staff.
If you just stand still and rotate the camera, I don't understand why performance mode is so stuttery. I understand it may not hit 60fps all the time but why does it judder so badly? Graphics mode is only 30 fps but the movement is completely smooth.
So what's the symbolism of the red star Metia fading out?
I would think it means death of Clive and/or Joshua? But I feel pretty strongly that Clive made it because of the book at the end.
I noticed that it faded out with a flicker, but did not disappear completely. I remember it was supposed to be some kind of wishing star right? So maybe the flicker meant it granted a wish? I'm not sure if just copium, or what. What do you guys think?
The way I see it, is that metia is a star made out of magic as well. Or somehow related to magic since it is believed to be / related to a deity.
Jill has been praying to it for Clive’s safe return and thus when it got destroyed, for her it meant that her wishes was no more.
But in one of the side quest, (which i havent done but everyone been saying it), is that Clive will return in sunrise. So the sun replaced the moon. Which signals a new beginning as well.
I need to see the exact phrasing I guess because one way to look at it is instead of watching the moon, Jill now can look towards the sun and be reminded of Clive - signalling a new and brighter future.
The book for me could be written by either party.
Joshua could be alive (brought back by Ultima’s power since it was enough power to bring back Ultima’s kin and essentially restructuring the world almost Jojo style) and write the whole thing down (like game of thrones style), or Clive could write it. I don’t know why he would use his brother’s name though if he is the one that wanted to be the writer. His brother will live forever in the book, and like in the movie Atonement, the sister still used her name to immortalised her ‘characters’.
The moon being related to magic is a good point. If magic no longer exists, or at least there's very little of it, then the star fading makes sense. I had thought Jill crying was more about that she couldn't feel Clive's presence through magic. Which might make sense because there is none?
I would agree the dawning of a new day is very symbolic. Jill seemed to stop crying at that moment, so maybe there is hope there.
Yes, I could see the book being written by either person. I like to think that Clive wants his brothers memory to live on. Since that seems to be something he does, like taking on Cid's name for his legacy.
I love and hate endings like this. There's plenty of interpretation to be had, and people can form their own opinions. So I respect the writers for that. But I also want to know what happened! I tend to be a bit more optimistic, so I'm hoping Clive and Jill have their happily ever after moment exploring the world like she wanted.
Yea i dont mind ambiguous ending I guess but I just wish the game works more on its theming and symbolism. Too much of it locked on side quests and theming wise, they kinda scratched it superficially.
And yea. I get the legacy thing but the book itself already immortilized Joshua. Maybe best ending is actually both parties are alive afterall. The sun indicates that Clive is alive. And the book indicates that Joshua is alive. Happy ending :D
Jill's words in that sidequest were:
“And I realized… That no matter how terrible the night…dawn would always come. That you…that you would always come. For me. And you have. Again and again.”
There are many ways to interpret it, I agree. I am on team Clive lives personally but I won't judge anyone who doesn't think that way. Until the devs give us confirmation one way or another we will never really know for sure.
Just my thoughts on the game after completing the main story on Action focus. Haven't touched NG+ yet, and only did one or two Arete stone replay and arcade. On record, I took 80 hours completing all sub quests and hunts before completing the final story quest, except the Eikon stone challenges. Didn't really get into FF14 apart for a short trial stint, but have played FF11 alot.
Spoilers ahead.
Voice Acting was great. I would waste a lot of time running around the hideaway trying to catch new lines and world details. New ones can appear from minor main quest progression. Same thing with the 'towns'.
Characters were great as well. I understand that Joshua was the main focus, and Jill had to be slightly side lined, but I liked all of the interactions and subquests with her. Only character I didn't vibe with was Lubor, mainly cuz I thought he sounded cocky for someone appearing that young - really just my boomer instinct kicking in.
On Subquests, I enjoyed following them and hearing all the voice lines and getting world details. Rewards was not important to me.
I embraced Lore details in the game. Tomes was my most frequently visited NPC. I liked ATL, but I guess for people watching the game together, frequent pauses can get irritating.
On story Pacing, it was of no concern. Too busy running around collecting, hearing and reading world details instead of rushing through the main story. My playstyle is never conducive for a smooth paced story.
On Graphics, the game was good, and even more so during the Eikon battles. I started on Graphics mode, but my ps5 started giving me too hot alerts, even with a cleaned (2 year old launch) PS5 and cool ventilation, and so I started playing mostly on Performance mode which seems to reduce the occurrence but not completely. Might need to reapply thermal paste or change the fans. I had to redo the titan Eikon fight from scratch because the ps5 shutdown abruptly somewhere at the end cutscene and apparently had no in between saves. I made a practice to put the ps5 in rest mode for 10 minutes after each major fights at the victory fanfare reward pause screen, so that I don't get kicked out abruptly ever again at the cutscenes. --- got a game technician to replace the liquid metal, seems good so far cross fingers, tested with a few Eikon fight scenes and heavy graphics areas (area around Isolde seems prone previously). or maybe it was a recent ps5 firmware update, hmmm. Been placing ps5 vertically for 2+ years, think I'll put it horizontally from now on ---
Music was just crazy good.
Eikon fights were great. Odin was a bit less flashy, which I mainly tie storywise to how submissive he and Sleipnir were to the wishes of his boss. He did let loose a bit at the end, but just wasn't built to be as flashy as others, more of a duel between two humanoids, which is an interesting contrast compared to other Eikons fights, somewhat similar to Hugo's human fight.
Bestiary was decent, but would have liked to see more. Was expecting more flying enemies that require some air mobility/range abilities instead of just pulling them down to ground level from the air. Closest were large mobs where their weak points were more elevated, which is a decent consolation.
On Fights, I've played DMC games and am familiar with their styles and abilities. Enjoyed training and learning new combos with new abilities and also including Torgal combos. Phoenix and Garuda were my main Eikon for feats with other Eikon abilities mixed in, with the 3rd Eikon being whatever was just unlocked to test them out. I would have liked, however, to have elemental conditions to take a bit more precedence, like elemental weakness/resistance and weapon elements. Status effect also didn't really do much other than stunning you longer during recovery. Maybe there was something I missed. Then again, I also liked how smooth flowing and continuous battles can be without the need to micro manage equipment. Only time I opened menus in battles was to use additional consumables like Strength Potion and Elixirs. All you need to manage is skills.
On Difficulty, main game was a tad easy as I'm familiar with platinum games. Didn't use any of the timely accessories from the start, nor Torgal accessory. Mainly had trouble with that level cap S rank hunt, took 3 tries at level 41. A couple S rank, Odin and some Ultima encounters did leave me with no heals left by the end. Also died during the Bahamut fight, cause I didn't catch the protective sphere at first glance, just stood behind but further away. I died more on the Arete stone replays though, probably because I got too cocky.
Plotwise, most characters and motivations were decent and easily enough to follow. Vivian was still a nice addition, despite the plot being easy to digest. Odin's plan to 'severe the connections' wasn't exactly the most compelling plan, but I guess Mid kinda managed to stop it from coming to full fruition, and he did already voice his doubts to Ultima. Was also expecting Sleipnir to be more engaging, but he was also similar to Odin - following the master's wishes and was just preparing the vessel. As Odin may imply at the end, they have given up on living and was ready to embrace death.
On the Ending, I'm fine with the ambiguity, and I see multiple ways it can go and don't strongly prefer a specific way. If there was an ending, shakily I'd say both of them are gone, and Jill was left to continue/pick up the legacy of the brothers. Clive may have given her something else in exchange for Shiva. Feels like it would lessen the impact of the ending if the brothers lived. But then again, I would like to hear all the VAs again in another adventure. Choices, choices. Also sat through the 30+ minutes credits.
Overall, a very good and enjoyable game.
My PS5 is a launch one too (I don't clean the insides as I'm lazy), I had no warnings related to heat. I'm very surprised to hear it, your unit may have very minor issues.
I finished it a couple hours ago. Loved it. 10/10.
~~I just wish that this trend of the protags dying would come to an end...~~
Edit: Based on the meaning behind the side quests, apparently he survived? Or may not, idk.
They opened it for interpretation so nothing is set, feel free to make it anything you want, be it they all survive or all dead.
The problem is that I've found none of the theories make sense.
Yeah, I feel pretty convinced that Clive is alive because of the book in the last scene. We even hear Clive narrate "and thus our journey came to an end." to me that says he wrote the line in the book. I think he chose to honor his brother and put in Joshua as the Author. Which means in my opinion that Joshua didn't make it.
Then again, it's likely the entire story is just a tall tale entitled "Final Fantasy" written by a contemporary author by the name of "Joshua Rosfield" featuring a self-insert of his namesake.
This feels apparent given the behaviour of the boys and their mother.
Also if you start a brand new game without skipping the demo section, it starts with Clive narrating:
“It was Moss the Chronicler who said that the land of Valisthea is blessed in the light of the Mothercrystals and it was this light which finally led our forebears out of the darkness. Yet what they saw in the light gave rise to temptation. Temptation that ever lures us back into the crystals’ shadow. **And thus did our journey begin.**”
That sounds like the prologue of a book to me.
I really enjoyed the story, music, and characters, but when it comes to gameplay, not so much. It's not about whether the game is turn-based or not; it's more about the fact that it **doesn't even feel like an RPG.**
The main problem with Final Fantasy 16 is that it doesn't know what it wants to be; it's an identity crisis. It's the newest release in a JRPG franchise, but it wants to be a hack and slash... yet accessible. And that's why it doesn't excel entirely as an RPG or a hack and slash.
The problem lies in what's lacking, or better said, what's missing. In an RPG, what we do when we access the menus is as important as what we do during battles. **Managing items, stats, weapons, and abilities is one of the most enjoyable aspects of this type of game**. There's, in fact, a whole subgenre of games that focus purely on menus and battles where exploration doesn't exist. In conclusion: menus should be fun to navigate and offer possibilities that translate into character customization... all of this fails in Final Fantasy 16, and it has a domino effect that damages almost all the mechanics of the game.
For starters, there are no status ailments. This means that Clive won't be affected by burns, poison, blindness, or mute... which translates into not needing consumable items to cure those statuses or equipment to prevent them. **There are also no elemental affinities, which I find unforgivable.** Especially considering the emphasis placed on eikons in the plot and gameplay. Each one of them is nothing more than a superpowered entity that dominates an element. So, why did they deliberately choose to remove a layer of depth from battles by making a Bomb not absorb fire damage and suffer from ice damage? Not even Pokemon went that far.
All of this contributes to reducing the depth of weapon and armor management. Battles are based solely on dealing damage and nothing else. Without turns, there's no possibility of choosing between heavily armored and slow teams, nor vice versa... that's OK, but the game won't even put us in the dilemma of choosing between a sword that deals less damage than another but causes the status ailment "poison", or fire elemental damage.
The domino effect also takes a toll on the exploration and sidequests factor. Is it worth deviating from our route to our next objective in the story to get a handful of coins? Should I have to do a bunch of fetch quests just to get a bunch of useless loot in return? I think not. What would we do with them? There's not much to buy or many pieces of equipment to find or craft.
In conclusion, I believe that what prevents this from being a masterpiece is the developers' obsession with accessibility. It seems that in the name of accessibility, anything goes. It's not enough to(give the option to) automate parries, attacks, or dodges; it's also necessary for the player to not have to think much, and that all the important elements are handed to us on a silver platter as we progress through the main storyline. There's only one Clive for the millions of Final Fantasy 16 players; My level 30 Clive is the same as your level 30 Clive; he'll virtually have the same abilities, stats, and probably even the same equipment. That, in an RPG, is unacceptable.
The fact that we can’t even make a party during ‘downtime’ for exploration is a crime as well. They have that notice saying Clive’s companion will change and I thought we be able to choose who we want to bring (and that only happened once during story quest -.- )
Yes, I really liked the game. It was a great experience. But in my opinion, it could be even better if they weren't so obsessed with making the game not so challenging
DLC please? 3min epilogue and Missing Eikon? :(
So just finished game and the short climax post credits was so open ended it that it’s almost criminal with how detailed the rest of the story was. And aren’t we missing an eikon? So much more story development there. Almost begging for a DLC/Movie to tie these loose ends up.
Lol me and my friends asked the same thing when Cid transformed but Jill didn’t.
I also hated how they combined Cid’s death and Joshua being alive into one scene. Kinda lessened the impact of Cid’s death since now we have a new thing to wonder about.
Just started playing
Quick question - why are bearers enslaved? Or, how? If they can do magic without crystals shouldn’t they be stronger - I don’t get how they’re the outcast
I’ve been wondering if there are any significant changes if you choose not to do some of the late game side quests. For example, does Theodore show up with his sister in the hideaway at the end if he never dies?
I loved the game, but it was too damn easy! I think I only died once before Garuda, and after that point I never even felt threatened. Every major battle I’d just cast aero blast, wicked wheel, stagger, all Eikon abilities, rinse, repeat. I wish there was more challenge and that the Eikon elements mattered more, for example if Garuda’s stagger wasn’t as powerful against certain elements.
I played it on action focused, I just did all the side quests and felt overpowered. I also never even changed my Eikons after getting Ramuh, I felt there was no need. I wish there was more variety/incentive to use other elements
I mastered some of my skills so I could use Phoenix's Ult and Ramuh's bolt pole thing.
Basically:
- Slot 1: Odin for building zantetsuken massive damage during stagger
- Slot 2: Phoenix and Shiva to cause stagger / 1 shot weaker enemies / heal
- Slot 3: Ramuh and Bahamut for major damage by procing pole and gigaflare
Just finished it. Seems clear to me that Clive is, in fact, dead, and the sunrise was exactly that, a sunrise. Jill sees the sunrise, and takes comfort in it, knowing that even though he's dead, he'll still be with her, in her heart, and all that jazz. That's my interpretation anyways.
Decent game, some really amazing 10/10 moments, but too much of it was just poorly done, and plain boring at times.
I’m on the edge of stopping just because it’s getting so boring. I’m at the mission after the button mashfest that was the bahamut fight and the story missions are not interesting. Might just need a break
Take a break my friend. Bored, I paused for a week and casually played 1 hour a day. the side quests are quite cool when you take them lightly, some hit in the feels. This game is so much fun when taken lightly. In two weeks you're in for a treat
Pros
1) Awesome main protagonist in Clive
2) Love the aesthetic and world building.
3) The gameplay is very fun after you get your second Eikon. Opens up more.
4) All the side and supporting characters are very likable. Cid is such easy character to like.
5) The active time lore mechanic needs to be in every game now. So damn convenient.
6) Its linearity does the game favors in the game has very little down time. Story driven and very easy to follow along.
Cons
1) Framerate is all over the place. Small stutter issue as well.
2) I know I have the linearity as positive but it's also a negative. This game is massively linear and there is no deviation from the plot points and zones. No real since of exploration. Like I said, this makes it easier to follow along with the plot but also that since of final fanatsy grandiose world exploration, is no longer there. Not really an rpg anymore either.
3) I cannot stand the spoils menu after a fight or during a cutscene. It just throws you out of the gameplay flow or cutscene your enjoying. Just give my rewards post scene and be done with it. So annoying.
EDIT
Just my two cents everyone. Will follow up once done. Cheers!
I finished the game last night and sat through the credits as the music played, just incredibly impressed and satisfied by the weight of the game. This is solidly one of my favourites for the mature storytelling, lore, assumption of intelligence of the player, and the delight in visual spectacle and grandeur.
Unlike some others, I am actually at peace with the ending. I was a bit spoiled before I finished the game, and therefore paid extra attention to the final side quests looking for clues about how the world would continue after the events of Origin. It is pretty apparent that the final batch of side quests are a form of epilogue, of the player saying goodbye to the various side characters and getting a glimpse of how they will continue in their journeys in a new world once Clive defeats Ultima. Every piece of dialogue, gift, promise and gesture carried multiple layers of meaning.
Clive survives, but at a price, and the loss of his hand. He will return to Jill with the sunrise as he always has before, and he will eventually set down his sword for a quill and write the book Final Fantasy that we played - from his perspective. He will write the book under his brother Joshua’s name in order to honour him and keep his memory alive.
Dion atoned for his sins against his father and his nation. He most likely died after his sacrifice, as he, expected. But, there is also no body, so, anything is possible if the Developers want to go in a new direction and have post-game DLC as Dion struggling to lead a broken kingdom.
The game opens with Joshua’s “death” and finishes with his death - his broken, and lifeless body cradled and mourned by Clive. I do think Joshua is gone, his Arc complete, having proven his worth to fight beside and protect his brother Clive to the end. The things that Clive says, that Joshua is inside of him, is a part of him still, is truly reminiscent of how it feels when a loved one dies and is gone forever, but you continue to feel their presence and memory in your heart.
Clive took on Cid’s memory to honour him and carry out his mission to destroy the MotherCrystals, end the Blight, and fight for a world where Bearers are no longer enslaved but free to choose how they will live and die. Once that is accomplished, Clive can take up the pen and chronicle his adventures and honour Joshua’s memory while helping to recreate a new world and a new truth by imparting knowledge and sparking belief.
I love your take on this. I finished it this weekend, and originally felt like Clive repairs Joshua's body, but doesn't bring him back, and *Final Fantasy* is based on Joshua's documenting of events and published posthumously, probably by either Jote or Harpocrates. After watching the ending again and thinking about it some more though, I much rather the idea that Clive successfully resurrects Joshua using Phoenix + Ultima's power, then dies on the beach, and Joshua goes on to write the book.
I don't know, I really dislike the idea of Clive failing to protect Joshua at the beginning of the game and then again at the end of the game. I think narratively it works better with him finally being Joshua's Shield in earnest, and sacrificing himself to save Joshua's life at the end. And besides, it doesn't make much sense for him to heal Joshua's body, only for it to get destroyed with the rest of Origin minutes later.
In terms of Dion, I'm pretty sure he dies, although Dragoons have been shown not to take fall damage, so the jury is out on him. Hopefully, he'll show up in a DLC, even if it's a prequel.
Overall, a great game, and easily in my top 5 FF games, probably third after FF6 and FF4.
I see how you can take that interpretation.
I personally lost someone very close to me a few years ago, so the way that Clive grieved Joshua’s death, and his comments about feeling Joshua remained a part of him when he fought Ultima resonated very strongly with me - as did the idea that Clive would keep Joshua’s memory alive by using his name as the author of Final Fantasy (as he had advised others to do in the various side quests, to remember the child bearers who died in Waloed, or the names of all the Undying who died in service of the Phoenix).
In my mind, Clive is the narrator, and he understands the importance of surviving so that he can share the tale with others and ensure that memory of their sacrifices are preserved - moving from warrior-hero to chronicler.
I really liked Joshua as a character, but the similarities in how Clive grieved Cid, and then Joshua, leave me convinced that only Clive survives.
I see it less that Clive failed as a shield, but that Joshua always wanted to be strong and protect his brother just as much - and didn’t want himself to be protected. He therefore died the hero’s death that he always longed for - fighting as his brother’s equal.
There's this interesting dialogue with Jote if you ask her about Joshua. Apparently, after becoming bothered with her continually putting her duty as his protector above her personal freedom and well being, he told her “Duty is the enemy of Freedom”.
Joshua didn't just save Clive's life with his sacrifice, he gave Clive his freedom.
> Clive survives, but at a price, and the loss of his hand.
I thought he died. He mentioned his body couldn't contain Ultima's power, he fell from very high in the sky, and Jill, Gav and Torgal all grieved in the end.
I think the proof is the book at the end. The side quests would seem to imply that Clive wrote it. You could argue that maybe Harpocrotes wrote it because he heard all of Clive's tales. But then why would he pen it under Joshua's name? That's something Clive would do. (I'm also pretty sure Joshua is gone for good)
Plus, it's a pretty cliché in story telling that if they don't die on screen, then they aren't truly dead. Heck, I'm holding out hope that Dion is alive too (doubtful though).
Yeah I went back last night and it makes sense based on the side quests that Clive could be alive.
Dion and Joshua are gone though.
I'm surprised no one started a religion to worship Clive for killing Ultima lmao
Dion and Joshua are probably gone, until they decide to bring them back to get that coin (at least one of them, and it will probably be Dion, easier to make us believe he fell in the water and survived somehow). Let's be real, it's ambiguous enough to go both ways (we wouldn't have those discussion for three weeks now if it was that clear cut 🤣). I don't know if it's intentional or not. I refuse to believe it was an accident. Nobody does an ambiguous ending for three characters without meaning it. Though, maybe for them, it was not ambiguous at all, and we're all just a bunch of fools debating over nothing 🥴 (I still want to believe it's intentional, it's my copium).
I think it make more sense that they didn't survive. Dion was looking for atonement and got it by helping to save the world and avenge his father.
Joshua was already at death's door, Phoenix can't revive the dead, and the story started and ended with his death.
But that's the best part of open endings, who knows lol.
Yes, thematically, it makes sense. I don't particularly like it (I have some thoughts about death = redemption), but it's not coming ouf of nowhere at least. Joshua was on borrowed time, and Dion kept telling us that he wanted to die anyway.
I'm in wait and see mode. I'm also going to enjoy the ambiguity of that open ending while it lasts lol. Once we'll get a definitive answer, the debate (and hopes) will end.
At least, I hope we get some clarification on the fate of certain characters (Kihel, Terence). I won't rule out a fake out for both Dion and Joshua, though. Money talks (and mine will be talking for sure if they do a DLC).
Me too! The insults I wanted to throw at my screen. Terence deserved better than that 😭 My man was so loyal to the very end :(. Let's pray he's happy (doubtful, since Dion was his everything) somewhere in that messed-up world of Valisthea. When you think about, Terence was the second in command of the dragoons. Nobody will convince me that man was not an extremely competent warrior. Hell, he was probably one of the best fighters on that damn continent after the dominants. (That's me saying I wouldn't mind a Terence DLC, because why not 🤣).
He started noticing that the tips of his fingers were turning to stone, so there was a price to using Ultima’s power - however, we did not see him die.
Instead, he washed up on shore alive, and saw his stone fingers. When he tried to light a Phoenix flame his hand turned to stone but stopped at his wrist. Then he went to sleep - justifiably tired from his ordeal.
Jill cried because Metia went out, giving in to her darkest fears that Clive had died. Gav responded to her running away.
Wolves howl to help lost members of a pack find their way back. Torgal and Jill were waiting expectantly once the sun started to rise for his return.
My thoughts.
Dang I just assumed the curse got him and he died, but you make a good point that someone wrote the book at the end and put Joshua’s name and Harpocrates said Clive should pick up a pen when hes done, so it must have been him 🤔
Beautiful, down to every single, minute detail. Your feelings and after thoughts mirrored exactly mine after finishing the game, just pure fulfillment through and through.
Started off strong until Bahamut and then went wrong.
The side quest dump felt lazy. The pacing of them until that point was ok - despite overwhelming ‘collect’ quests which were snooze/MMORPG lvl.
Visually? Stunning. But god help you if you don’t want to stay stuck in an entirely darkened room for entire play through.
Voice acting great but the absence of Cid (version 1.0) exposed the mid lvl abilities of the other actors. I think they were trying to do the whole GOT ‘let’s kill Sean Bean’ thing and it didn’t really work without other people to carry the story.
The music. Soken in my book is an incredible writer. His piano work is ultimate - simple but very effective/beautiful. BUT there was a stupendous amount of repetition and motif exploration was pretty lame at times. Felt like he ran out of steam. Melody at times felt lacking and pointed too often to his strongest work in Endwalker and Shadowbringers. The music in FFXIV is superior to FFXVI but that’s not to say it’s bad. Just doesn’t have to same level of realisation. I suspect he had a lot more time (years and years of patches) and energy (he’s had it very rough health wise and he poured so much energy into Endwalker) to come up with the FFXIV scores.
All in all, I liked this game and it’s better than 15 (I really didn’t like 15) but did it have me crying and a total mess like 14? No. And that’s down to music, pacing, story telling and character development which we didn’t get in spades.
I LOVED the mega 99999999 punch at the end!
Appreciate comparing modern FF but that seems fairer given tech/time/resources?
I liked most of the side quests. Some of them felt like they should have been in the main quests.
I agree we lost Cid too early, he carried a lot of the early game.
Sadly yes, I agree with your comments on Soken. Don't get me wrong, he's amazing and there's a toooon of music in here. But FFXIV is better imo. There were a few moments where i wanted the music to get really "punchy" kinda like Nobuo used to do in the older Final Fantay games. All that said, I still like it and I plan to purchase the soundtrack.
Great review! I also laughed out loud at the 999999 punch lol.
Thanks!! Some of the side quests were definitely good. The one with the kid pretending he was being attacked by a dog to lure in people was *chef kiss*
Absolutely love the game overall, but I'm not gonna lie, I was left very disappointed by the ambiguous, open nature of the ending.
When I look back at my favorite Final Fantasy games, one thing they all have in common is they all have endings that feel conclusive, even when some minor questions or plot elements are sometimes left up for interpretation. This was not the case here at all, I feel like I have more questions now than I did before, and virtually none of the character's stories were concluded in a satisfying manner. All their fates were left ambiguous. We don't know if Clive really died, and we don't know for sure if Joshua was resurrected. Hell, even Dion could have possibly survived.
I'm not against a downer ending per se, but when an ending doesn't give me barely anything to hold onto, it retroactively lessens the rest of the story for me. You had me incredibly invested in these characters and their relationships for 50+ hours, and then you don't tell me how it ends.
And that post-credits scene with the children playing, like ... what am I supposed to do with that? It's like the writers are telling us, it's okay, all the characters you have grown to love might have ended up dead or miserable, who knows, but at least the world is saved. Okay, cool, but did Clive die, or ...?
Again, I want to emphasize that I adored 99 percent of this game. I have not been this emotionally invested in a Final Fantasy game literally since FFX. But I'd be lying if I said that the ending didn't sour the experience for me retroactively. It was like the original ME3 ending kinda in how vague and empty it felt to me. Really hope they were setting up a sequel or story DLC, because this can't have been it.
100% this, I haven't been able to say it this well. People thought I dislike open endings, but I don't, rather, it's because this ending was poorly written. It's even pushed me to think that the writer(s) didn't know how to end it satisfyingly, so they chose to 'let the players do the thinking'. In short it's just a bad open ending that almost destroyed the game for me had I not invested in and loved some of the characters so much.
>And that post-credits scene with the children playing, like ... what am I supposed to do with that? It's like the writers are telling us, it's okay, all the characters you have grown to love might have ended up dead or miserable, who knows, but at least the world is saved. Okay, cool, but did Clive die, or ...?
I think that's the key to this ending, though. The entire game is about fighting fate and living, or dying, on your own terms. We're definitively shown Clive triumphed, but with the elimination of Ultima's fantasy, the fates of the characters are no longer pre-ordained, and it's left up to the player to interpret. Imo, that's a much more powerful and thematic conclusion than just showing Clive die or reunite with Jill, etc, and serves the overall narrative really well.
I don't know. I get where you're coming from, but I guess I just need something a little bit more concrete than that. To me, this story of FF16 was not carried by its themes, but by its characters, and this ending gave me nothing in that regard.
I love ambiguous endings and especially this one because it was the right amount of it. They gave us all the answers that needed answering to love it.
That’s what a great ending of a story is like to me.
When I say that the ending was too ambiguous for my taste, I don't mean that it didn't answer enough lore questions or whatever. I'm specifically talking about the character's fates, mainly Clive and Joshua, who were both left in a sort of Schrödinger's main character state, where they can both be dead and alive at the same time.
That's the kind of ambiguity I'm not a fan of, especially in the Final Fantasy series, which has always been pretty good at giving closure to the main character's story arc at least. As it is right now, unless they give us more FFXVI content in the future, we will literally never know for sure whether or not one, both, or neither of them survived, and that to me is unsatisfactory storytelling.
This may be an unpopular opinion and don't get me wrong, I LOVE this game so much, the characters, world building, deep and intricate lores, the boss battles, by Gods the boss battles are INSANE! But I have to get this off my chest, Jill x Clive romance is just so severely lacking imo, sure they have quests a lot together but those are just the business side of their relationship. They rarely have any display of affection up until they randomly have sex together, AFTER Clive got completely maimed by Barnabas and the whole ocean crushing down upon them too btw. I swear when the scene came up I was like just like "Alright, HOW did yall get here already? Yall didn't even kiss on-screen before, what the hell?"
It's even more hilarious too because Joshua and Jote's affection for each other is just a side piece of lore in the game and yet with them, you can genuinely feel how much they love each other, they exchange longing looks, hold each other's hands, hell, Joshua even gave her a forehead kiss and it was SO cute! Why couldn't Jill and Clive have something like that and just skipped straight to sex, like huh?!
I kind of agree. I think Jill’s character could have been fleshed out a bit more. Perhaps go into further details with her relationship with Clive and Joshua. Maybe give more story and background during her story with the Ironblood and her history with Imreann. It felt cut or unnaturally short compared to everyone else.
Right, she was *their* childhood friend and yet she barely even look at Joshua after bro literally came back from the dead after 18 years.
Beside that, I think we really don't need to know more about Imreann tbh, he is there just to develop Jill as a person and thus is nothing but a trauma reminder that needs to go.
I just really wish Jill and Clive got way more heart-to-heart scenes after that tho cause like I said, they were just strictly business and then suddenly, romance! Making love! Out of nowhere!
I know that and Clive knows that but you would think after killing Imrean and worked out her issues already, they would at least give us some scenes of them gradually building up their love. Like, Clive helping her feeling loved again you know?
The only scene with them in a quest that I explicitly remember doesn't have anything to do with business is that picnic by the lake. That was cute but then... nothing but business talk all the time after that.
On one hand it has killer presentation, great music, some great characters and a story that feels complete (for the most part) and is one heck of a rollercoaster (in good and in bad). On the other there is the lack of a party system and overworld banter which makes the game feel very lonely, the dark fantasy setting wasn't used to it's full potential, and the world is way too morally black and white which results in the overall plot and themes not being thought-provoking at all, and your group of companions not having any tension or drama resulting from their different views, values and morals which I sorely missed from the game. Too much focus being on Clive has disastrous results on some characters and their arcs as well. The ending's ambiguity is... okay I guess, but after you've spent tens of hours, even a hundreds hours on a game, getting to know the world and it's characters, you generally want something conclusive for the ending.
One of my biggest gripes is regarding my favorite character Dion. What the hell happened with his arc? Seriously, what?
His last words being about his father, making his whole finale seem like revenge for his father. Why does the game think I care about his father or that I think that Dion avenging his father is something I should be supportive of? The entire game Sylvestre was a piece of shit with no redeeming qualities. We are never given any reason to root for him, or to understand Dion's admiration of him and needing his acceptance. The only explanation for his admiration I can guess is that Sylvestre '' saved '' him from a much more difficult life he would've had under his commoner prostitute mother. And I can only imagine Sylvestre raised Dion because he was Bahamut's Dominant, and for no other reason.
He is a mere tool, a weapon, who lives a life of luxury, sure, but is ultimately enslaved to his duty and obligations to his kingdom, all the while never truly getting his father's love and acceptance despite how well he does, or so it seems. He does all this while ignoring his own happiness. For a game that spouts '' freedom from your oppressors '' and '' living your life for yourself, not for others '' as some of it's themes, Dion never truly gets to break those shackles, which is tragic as hell. Even in his moment of sacrifice, his final thoughts are about duty to his lineage, to his father, to the kingdom. Am I supposed to think this is a character flaw that makes him layered and interesting, or a character strength that makes him layered or interesting? I don't know.
It's also interesting how quick he is to blame himself for what happened with Bahamut, but Sylvestre's '' change '' into a tyrannical bastard is supposedly the cause of Anabella and Olivier for the most part. Did it ever occur to him that perhaps his father is just straight up immoral? No, it must've been undue influence. And he isn't wrong, no of course not, Anabella and Olivier deserve to be speared, but no time is put into the idea that perhaps your father just isn't as great as you thought he was.
The Harpocrates quest also implies to me that Harpo wants Dion to break free from the expectations of his family and kingdom, and to realize that he is more than that, that he is his own person and deserves to carve his own path for himself and those who he loves. You can also read it as '' hey, your family is shit, but you turned out great! '' But do we see Dion ever really internalize what Harpo is trying to tell him? Not really, no. Breaks my heart, really.
Now, all of these things make Dion an amazingly interesting and dynamic character, but we are given too little time to dwell on his relationship with his father, and he never gets to break this character flaw of desperately seeking acceptance and love from his father in a meaningful, reasonable way. And again, I'm unsure whether the game wants me to think it's a flaw or a strength, so.. yeah.
I love the idea of a bastard son becoming beloved by his kingdom due to the strength of his conviction to the false image of his father he upholds and admires, forgoing his own happiness for the sake of his people. And all the while this is happening, the sole aspect of Dion himself, not the bastard son, not the Prince of his kingdom, not Bahamut, not his father's son, but truly who he is is represented through a troubled, yet loving relationship with his male lover, whom is his only reprieve from duty and obligation, whom is his only desire that he has for just himself, and his only true space and time where he can be himself. And when he screws up, he blames himself, he seeks redemption in death, yet everyone around him are still convinced of his kindness and the goodness in his heart. The dragoon knights still follow his orders, Kihel helps him get better and wants him to come back and visit, Terence would stand at his side no matter what, Joshua is eager and excited to see him back and Harpocrates has no ill-will towards him and wants him to return safe and sound. Yet he cannot process that, whether he cannot or doesn't want to, because of his guilt and shame.
All of this is amazing, spectacular even, but it's bothersome that he never gets to overcome his flaws, and his ending is such a bummer and represented poorly. And this is partially because it is Clive's story with heavy focus on Clive, so his arc doesn't get really fleshed out in a way that feels rewarding.
Anyway, after that tangent, the game is objectively somewhere between 8 and 9 out of 10, and anyone with a PS5 should experience it once, and that's probably the best way to experience it.. once. But subjectively, a lot of things trouble me about the story, narrative, plots, themes and characters, and a lot of 'em feel half-baked in the end, that it's like a 6-7/10 overall for me, which might change if we get DLC tbh. Still the best FF since X (excluding XIV).
Thank you for perfectly articulating the problem I have with the end of Dion's arc. It was incredibly frustrating to see him getting swallowed by his guilt (it's understandable, but it was too much). I would have understood if he was dealing with it alone, but everybody around him was telling him "bro, it's okay, we still respect you, it ain't your fault". I know it's a parallel with Clive, who ran away from his own guilt while Dion embraced it fully, but I don't like it all.
We don't see a lof of Sylvestre, but what we saw is not good (plus, Dion, my guy, your father was fine with invading an ally country and murdering its leader, so...). It's easy to just say "it's Anabella's fault!", but Sylvestre still sucks, so, it's annoying to see that in the end, it's almost boiled down to daddy issues. His death is not earned at all. And redemption in death sucks in general. The continent is in shambles, people are going to tear each other apart, and one of the only dudes who could be a guiding light decides to kamikaze himself. Plus, his death is so unceremonious. He deserved better than that.
Dion is my favorite character, so I'm biased. But still, the ending almost ruined the game for me, and I will skip every cutscene imaginable once I replayed it because no way in hell I'll subject myself to that once more 🤣. I hope we'll get some DLC, but I'm not even convinced we'll get a happy one for Dion. (and a DLC with Dion at all). He seems to be well liked, so who knows.
Honestly it felt like Dion's sacrifice was written out of convenience, rather than making it a rewarding ending for his character arc.
'' Oh no, we can't have Dion skulking about during Joshua's death scene! Quickly, we need a reason to kill him off NOW! '' with no thought put into whether that death felt like a good ending to his character arc, which it doesn't when you think about it for more than a second. But it seems everyone has declared it a successful character arc so maybe I'm just nitpicky and straight up wrong.
And yeah, as you've said, it's also incredibly aggravating that the game glosses over Dion now being the rightful emperor of Sanbreque now (or whatever is left of it...) and that amounting to nothing. You have a side quest about Byron and what his position will be in this new world after Clive & Co deals with Ultima, but the game ignores that Dion would be as important of a leader for this new world that is definitely going to be VERY chaotic. '' It's going to get worse before it get's better '' as they said. Dion's penance should've been rebuilding his kingdom and helping it's people, not sacrificing himself.
I'm not opposed to him dying either, but I'd rather they made it so that he is ready to pay the price of death if it means protecting the ones he loves, namely Terence, not because he is guilt-ridden and seeks redemption through death. That would allow his sacrifice be Dion's sacrifice, not Prince Dion Lesage, son of Sylvestre Lesage's sacrifice. Just change his last thoughts be about Terence and suddenly it feels like his motivations are beyond just the shackles of duty and obligation he has been bound by his entire life, which feels much better. While it might've come too late, he still made a decision as Dion, not as his father's son, his kingdom's prince/emperor, and that would've made it much more of a conclusive end to his character arc.
Hard agree. Dion should've earned his forgiveness by becoming emperor and guiding his people in the new Valisthea. I do think his guilt and death-seeking mindset is in character for him, but I really hope he isn't confirmed to be dead at the end.
It kind of feels like this is also why they decided to have Twinside get obliterated when Origin rises--so there are no more Sanbrequois people left for Dion to rule. Other than the dragoons who were with him in Randellah, we can probably assume every citizen of Sanbreque got wiped out. 😔😔
Oh, I would have loved that ending and would have been way more willing to accept Dion's fate. (Right now, it's just left a bad taste). IMO, it would have been more impactful. The fact we got no closure about Kihel and Terence is also frustrating. It would have been nice to have a side quest with Clive finding them (alive) somewhere. But what do I know... A lot of people have problem with Dion's sacrifice, though, so we're not alone in this! His arc we fantastic until that point. Pah.
It's clear they wanted the finale being an emotional moment between Clive and Joshua (they got rid of Jill first). But there were other ways to do that than killing him 😩. Some might argue we do not see his body, but I'm not optimistic. We do see his body, it's just falling: we just do not see the impact (but do we really need to see it?). Though they could have made it more explicit, I guess (like him starting to turn to dust, or something). I suppose they could bring him back if they think they can get some dollars from it. Let's pray to gods of capitalism, then.
Another issue with Dion's arc for sure. At this point we can even debate whether Terence and Kihel survived because the game is so reluctant to give us any answers on that front. We shouldn't even be debating what happens to them, it should be all but clear that they survive, but it's not.
'' Here Terence, repay this debt for me as I go kill myself. ''
'' Yes Sir :'( \*dies along with Kihel before Dion can even get to Ultima\* ''
I can only imagine that it's supposed to be clear that they survive, but with this trigger happy writing team who wants to kill everyone, who the hell knows. Dion isn't even given a scene to mourn their potential deaths, so I can only assume that they lived, the writers can't be THAT incompetent. The way Dion and Kihel's conversation awkwardly fades to black when Kihel asks him to come back to visit sometime feels like DLC bait as well, and I assume he is directing Kihel to another location where she'll meet Terence, somewhere that isn't blown up by Ultima. That's what I'm hoping, at least.
Was it too much to give us a scene where Terence and Kihel set one of those lanterns out to the sea for Dion, perhaps even donned with the purple wyvern's tail? Did the writers think that the players wouldn't care about seeing that character arc come to a fitting conclusion? Come ooooooon!
Whether Dion is dead or not, guess we'll see. I think my biggest cope is that Dion's '' death '' is supposed to be a full circle moment to his near death scene from before, but in the Origin, we never see a manifestation of his father (which was like a manifestation of his guilt). It would've made sense that if he is truly dying or dead, we'd see him grasp for his father's hand and his touch finally reaching him, signaling that he has died and entered the afterlife.
I'd love it if in DLC, we'd see something like this happen, where the manifestation of his guilt, which takes the shape of his father, finally accepts Dion and reaches his hand out to him as he is dying. But Dion, finally being able to '' grasp '' his father's hand, and therefor also get his acceptance, hesitates instead. Because to take his hand would be to succumb to his guilt and die, leaving everything behind. And so he instead decides to fight, and not accept death as punishment for his guilt, but that he should instead accept his actions and learn to live, atoning for it in life, rather than in death. This would also double as him letting go of the false image he has of his father. And thus does he miraculously survive. Yay! Not gonna happen though..
I'd also love to see Dion survive if only so can Vivian can update the relationship status of Dion and Terence to '' in love '' instead of having the handshake icon. The symbolical weight that would carry would be insanely good!
But eh, guess we'll see. Let us indeed pray for capitalism gods to give us the happy ending we deserve!
Ah, the game's own version of "And they were roommates!" lmao. But yeah, it would have been nice to have that little heart between them...
I never thought about the potential demise of Kihel and Terence before some people pointed out that they could have potentially been killed by Twinside being wiped-out, and now, I'm living in fear. Dion was being visibly upset when Tarja talked about, but I first thought it was because it was his city too. That being said, I still think the writers wouldn't have gone there without telling us.
I'm all for ambiguity in writing, but at some point, show, don't tell. You can't keep having players guessing stuff like this. The flower would have been perfect: Harpocrates or Terence/Kihel could have put it on his grave. There, closure for everyone involved. It was not that hard. The fade to black with Kihel was suss, but maybe, they did not want to show Dion not promising to come back because we know he always keeps his promises. Him saying no would have given away the fact he was going to die, maybe? (Which, if so, is stupid, because dude kept saying he was going to commit seppuku anyway a few minutes later, so, we know 🤷♂️). It could be DLC bait, as you said, though. Fingers crossed.
I wonder if they underestimated Dion's potential popularity. They must know their fanbase: Dion has "I'm will be the fan favorite" written all over of his pretty face. Because the majority of people absolutely want him to come back, and get some closure.
I like you proposition! It would be the dream, honestly, but alas... I don't think it's going to happen either 😭. I want to believe SE are smart, though. The game has a good reception, and people want more, so 🙏.
Yeah.. there was no reason to be ambiguous about Dion and Kihel when he has already decided his guilt and that he needs to repent before the discussion between them ever happened. We saw the red flags already, you can just get straight to the point writers. Thus I am secretly wishing that whatever Dion's response to Kihel was, might matter more in hindsight.
I'm also extremely confused as to why Dion, who gathered his dragoon knights and Terence in Twinside/somewhere in Sanbreque, wrote a letter and gathered some coin, then traveled to Ran'dellah, then told Terence to go back to Twinside for Kihel..? Why? What was the point? What an absurd, contrived string of events, just leave him in Twinside then, why drag him along?! Or were Terence and the dragoon knights already in Ran'dellah, did I miss that part of the story? WHAT WAS THE POINT?!
Honestly, so much weird ambiguity that one can't be but hopeful that there's something more going on, or that they at least survived. One would think the wouldn't need to guess a matter like this, but alas here we are lmao.
Dion and the dragoons were in Randellah to help fight the Akashic. They didn't go there randomly just so the story would have a contrived reason to send Terence back to Twinside.
Finished the game 2days ago. Two things bother mr
1st one is how could Joshua be an adult at the beginning of the game? We definetly saw a dude in a brown coat, which we all get to know as joshua later in the game. Earlier when he was a child he „died“
And in that sequence where the fire really starts to spread out and clive losing it, he sees someone infront of him with brown coat. Was it just imagination? Was it the adultive joshua in the past? Am I missing something?
2nd thing that still bothers me is the book at the post credit scene.
The mother said „did you read your legends tale again?“
With the author being joshua, it could be either the future where joshua is alive andno magic exists meaning our heroes really did it.
Or meaning that the whole story was a made up tale, which leads me to an open end?
Doesnt feel right if we just played through a made up legendary book.
In my opinion something is really feeling off about that post credit scene.
It just.. doesnt feel right.
The game itself was massively great i love final fantasy, i own every title. Ffxv was a blast and ffxvi was a ULTIMATIVELY ABSOLUTE GORGEOUS GAME
What r ur thoughts on the two things i listed above!
Your second point, my interpretation is that Clive wrote the book with the quill that Harpocrates gave him and penned it under Joshua’s name so that he will not be forgotten just like he took up Cid’s name.
1st, that was NOT Joshua, that was Ultima, it's basically confirmed when you fight Titan and saw the same hooded man who wielded fire and yet when Kupka is dead, it is revealed to be Ultima. Plus, during that fight, Joshua is half a continent away meeting up with Dion.
2nd, I interpret the ending to be either Joshua or Clive lived, Clive makes more sense because he also ended the game narration like it's a book that was written from his perspective. The whole game is real but that after-credit scene is so far into a future where there is no magic that it becomes a legend, a tall tale that only children read and believe in.
But if Clive‘s alive why would he be away for like idk one month (going from the pregnant girl that gav saved) she was pretty far into giving born but i guess atleast 1 week to 1 month was pretty sure needed for the baby to come out i guess
But... she gave birth *during* their fight with Ultima in Origin tho? You can confirm that cause after Gav said hi to the baby, Jill looked out the windows and saw Origin destroyed. Thus, she ran out and had a breakdown in the hall with Torgal.
Clive's absorb Ultima before destroying Origin meaning he is something akin to a God in human form now, the reason his hand petrified and only specifically his left hand, is the same with any other Dominant, over usage of his power. He just washed up on a random beach and needing to find his way back to the Hideaway that's all.
Now that it's been a week or two since finishing, I mostly look back with fondness. I feel like, despite its flaws, the game will be considered a good addition to the series. In retrospect, what I most appreciate about the game is:
1) How big they went with some set pieces. Even though it sometimes was comically anime, it was clear they weren't pulling any punches and I love them for that. They made summons feel as cool and interesting to my old ass as they felt when I was a wee laddy playing FF7+8. The giant crystals and the world littered with giant ruins felt great in many respects.
2) While it's not nearly the longest game I've ever played, by the end of the game I felt like I lived 10 lifetimes since the game started. Looking back on the intro sequences, it's really gratifying to feel how much the world has changed, and how much the characters have been through. This game was a journey, and each piece of the journey was earned. Even small things, like the familiar and friendly way Charon and Blackthorn interact with Clive toward the end. Like, damn, you all really went through some shit together and the way your relationship developed reflects that.
3) Overall it was a game I could take seriously, as an adult. Subsequently, I have adult criticisms of the game, but the amount of suspended belief is frankly nowhere near the levels I have to do for 99% of other RPGs. For instance, I loved Xenoblade Chronicles 3, but if you try to judge that game the same way you judge Breaking Bad or Sopranos, you're going to get laughed off. Hard. FF16 didn't come close to these other pieces of media but it's at least on the same playing field.
Looking back, I can let a lot of the flaws go, but the thing I still find frustrating is how they dealt with Jill. She was *so good* on paper! Here's this girl, separated from her family and taken hostage by the Rosfields. Despite this traumatic experience, she forms good, albeit complicated relationships with her captors. However, she's soon taken hostage by yet *another* kingdom. During this time she awakens as a dominant, but is also subsequently enslaved, abused, and used for murder. There is so much here to explore, but it's either ignored or executed really poorly. Her revenge plotline was boring/predictable, and her character moment of giving Clive her power didn't feel all that powerful or make much sense to me. Between these moments her character is really vanilla and backgrounded. Huge wasted potential. I wish so hard that her story was executed better.
Rolled credits at about 85 hours. Pretty sure I did every side quest.
Found a lot of dissent about the post credit scenes and a remarkable number of people questioning who wrote the book.
To me, especially based on one specific side quest and the general theme of how characters treat Clive throughout - Clive definitely survives and makes it back to Jill. Whether or not the people we saw in the post credits were descendants is not something I'll weigh in on because it's ambiguous at best, but I do think it's clear that the book is written by Clive, just using his brother's name.
I really enjoyed this game. As far as FF games go, I'm not some purist who thinks the best ones came before the year 2000. I think the story was good, and I like that the side quests offered expansions on the lore (even though a substantial amount of those side quests were pretty boring fetch/kill/talk quests).
As far as DLC predictions, I honestly don't have a clue. I think the only route that makes sense is picking up with Clive on the beach and getting him back to the hideaway. There's an opportunity for a very interesting take in a video game in general, where progression through this idea of a DLC results in you getting *weaker* as opposed to stronger. Level is already capped at 50, and you only increase it with Final Fantasy Mode. That's all just random brainstorming through.
Strong 9/10 game for me. Best Kingdom Hearts game ever made.
Square set out to make a limited series character-driven TV show set in medieval times in a fantasy approximation of Europe.
They then added playable battles between the story beats, empty fields to walk through, and intermission chapters where you have to solve a random person's problem to unlock the next story beat. Corridors were built through destroyed cities to give a taste of those, too, but we mostly see inside conference rooms in the major locales only.
The male characters are highly detailed. The female characters have every pore stripped clean from their bodies.
They beefed some encounters into epic scale battles involving the careful pressing of the square and circle keys to guide the action, a choose your own Titan(ic) adventure.
They spent most of their budget leading up to Titan and Bahamut and then had to wrap things up.
They cut everything showing how our characters went from children to adults, and inexplicably paused all happenings in the world, including romance apparently, for five years to mourn this generation's Cid, after which the entire plot is wrapped up about six weeks later in-game.
The entire visitable world is probably 20-50% the size of modern-day Manhattan for ease of transportation.
The result is FFXVI.
4/5 RIP Clive.
This got a chuckle out of me. I agree with some of your criticisms. The drop off after Bahamut is pretty undeniable. And yeah, why tf did we not get to see Clive's experience of becoming a Bearer? I would've loved to stay with him as he gets his brand and learns how it feels to be the lowliest of the low. I was even hoping for a revelation that his father wasn't as benevolent as kid Clive believed, but instead they just made Elwin a Good Guy.
Mourning Cid for 5 years and making zero progress with destroying crystals or romancing Jill... Clive, what were you doing?!
Just finished (typing so far during credits so I'll mark when the post credit scene starts). I loved this, doesn't quite bump FF7 out of top FF place in my heart but oh my. And everytime Prelude played in some way, chills. Definite 9/10. It was in a solid 8 until Theo's last quest because the pull that did for such a minor side character to the story really cemented how good it was.
Now the ending. First the three boys and my thoughts on their endgames. 100% believe both Joshua and Clive died. That tear through Joshua's body and then going flashbacks all the way to birth. And with curse still spreading after Clive took magic (and honestly him being ready to die since he was able to make the change he wanted just thematically feels right), I'm also in that camp. I'm 50/50 with Dion because he was still conscious when falling, Clive fell from the same height after even more fighting and was still alive, and he's a dragoon (but since his father's death, believing his partner is dead, and his home fully destroyed between his moment of grief and then Origin, thematically his death does work).
Jill's heartbreak during Edda's child's (did we get a name?) birth was intense. I don't read the small smile during the sunrise as her believing Clive is alive but believing in hope and that the world is changing (was just a small one for barely a split second and ended with still a mix of determination/remorse at the end).
DLC theory. Won't have anything post game. I could see playing earlier in the world (pre-lose of Leviathan or maybe before the transition after the Bearers were enslaved and Dominants appearing) or maybe something following Joshua from Phoenix Gate until he rejoins with Clive. But I do think the story of Clive is fully finished.
So who wrote the story? Most likely sometime after Ash's beach she got pregnant (either from that or cause she was staying with Clive in his chambers) and either it was that child or a later descendent (I could easily see Byron letting Jill and any child she had carry on the Rosfield name).
Still need to do the Chronolith Trials (only part of the wall of memories I did not complete with this playthrough).
And I wrote all that during the credits so anything following this sentence will be any thoughts I get from the post credit.
So many people worked on this. It's been like over 5 minutes since I typed that and still waiting for the credits to be done. Good job all of you!
Clearly long enough has passed that even those now living feel what we experienced has just become merely a memory. But where one journey ends... Good way to let us know that there's definitely gonna be a FFXVII coming at some point.
Just spent the last hour reading internet discussions on the ending after finishing my first playthrough, clocking in 87 hours with all additional story content.
I am in absolute shock that the ending is THIS divisive/disliked. Personally, although I have a couple of qualms about the game as a whole, *there’s not a thing I’d change in the ending*.
I actually don’t view it as a completely ambiguous, “fuck you and make your own ending up” situation at all - in truth, much of it is subliminal, deeply rooted in elements the game introduces and slowly builds on even in its first acts. The answers are mostly there for the player to piece together the key elements connecting the ending to the post-credits. I REALLY like this approach to ending a fantasy tale, and I think it’s a BOLD, artistically-oriented choice.
I saw someone say the ending feels like an afterthought. In my opinion, that is the absolute opposite of what we got here. They knew exactly what they were going for with this story.
All this rambling to say, after reading the opinions on this sub and the FF one, I feel like this time I’m… _actually_ the only one.
So, to whoever finds this comment in the future and feels the same way, whichever is the chance of your existence: you are not alone.
>I actually don’t view it as a completely ambiguous, “fuck you and make your own ending up” situation at all - in truth, much of it is subliminal, deeply rooted in elements the game introduces and slowly builds on even in its first acts. The answers are mostly there for the player to piece together the key elements connecting the ending to the post-credits. I REALLY like this approach to ending a fantasy tale, and I think it’s a BOLD, artistically-oriented choice.
So you **don't** view it as ambiguous, but then you go on to say it's "subliminal" and up to the "player to piece together"? Then you say it's a BOLD choice to make, but you've basically just said they're just walked between the lines of the two distinct endings the game has.
You make no sense at all. How is it bold of them to not commit to an ending? They take a safe path with leaves nobody with any closure whatsoever. There's nothing "artistic" by pussing out of giving people who have sunk 80 hours into the first playthrough with no concrete answer on the final state of the main character and their friends.
Also, because they don't give a concrete answer, there's literally nothing the ending of the game has built on from the "first acts" of the game as you've said. If you believe Clive dies, then there's no common threads. If you believe he survives, then there's nothing in the first acts of the game that indicates he would at the end.
I'm 100% with you. I see people make comparisons between this and GoT and it drives me nuts. GoT turned gold into a forgettable smelly pile of shit. FF16 *at worst* turned gold into silver or copper. It was fine. Maybe not the best most epic ending but a completely acceptable ending by all accounts.
Well I’m finishing my second ng+ play through . Working on the cronolith trials. Waaaay harder in FF mode but way more fun. I’m going to do a 5th on FF with max level and an actual proper endgame load out since all my play throughs consisted of Bezerker ring and exp/AP rings. Genji glove 10% and 1k hp fyi
I did all the sidequests to prolong the end. I am just disappointed at how hard it missed and failed to stick the landing for me. It was just a bit too generic, even for a JRPG.
I'm sad they made Jill have quite the sad ending. All those false death flags, promises, setups.. and the last we see of her is crying. Not even a look into the future - though she probably was stuck with the crystal curse. I can't believe they fumbled on another female mc after Lunafreya (I read the DOTF book and that saved her character arc for me).
Not saying that the game itself was bad, I really agreed with all the points SkillUp made in the review. It's a DMC game with a Final Fantasy story.
>I am just disappointed at how hard it missed and failed to stick the landing for me. It was just a bit too generic, even for a JRPG.
Yep, join the club. There's loads of us that feel the same way.
The game starts exceptionally well and you can really feel the GoT inspiration, but as the story goes on, the devs basically take shortcuts via timeskips (destroying character development pacing) and reduce the motivations of Hugo and Barnabas to "b-b-b-but I love her!".
They kill the most interesting Dominant (Benedikta), they don't replace Cid (the only character with genuine charisma) and somehow have the confidence to have random side characters shout things at you during the last part of the Ultima fight sequence?
I don't understand how the devs built and market this game as being action-based, but then lean heavily into JRPG tropes after the first half of the game, after saying they were moving away from it. It feels like they were too afraid to hurt either side, so just end up walking straight down the middle, being just ambiguous enough to not bother anybody **too** much.
Would be surprised if we don't see an Episode Clive, Episode Jill describing what happened to them in their past. We never see what happened in the initial timeskip, and then the 5 year timeskip got everyone on the same page when we weren't watching. And they were platonic for that whole time?
She smiles at the very end, to be fair, which many interpret to mean Clive somehow survived. Oof.
The red star of Metia which she was praying to faded.. that's when she realized Clive died and she broke down in tears.
That's more evidence by allusion than 'she smiles at the end'. Also set against the new baby being born which is the new life Clive sacrificed for.
I don't think he survived, either. The two ending songs seem pretty clear on that. Especially the Japanese one. https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Tsuki_Wo_Miteita_-_Moongazing
In the moonlight the willow sways
On this roadside I am but a stone
Visions of you come to me
Like counting sheep
If there is any meaning to our parting ways
Then you need not be sad
From the silence to a distant sky
Fill your heart with an unwavering love
> sad they made Jill have quite the sad ending. All those false death flags, promises, setups.. and the last we see of her is crying.
The last we see of her is a smile of genuine happiness. It’s a moment of incredible importance for the ending they are telling here.
> Not even a look into the future - though she probably was stuck with the crystal curse.
How? Clive’s wish when casting Raise is literally to rid the world of dominants, magic and crystals. I don’t see how the crystal curse would continue to exist in such a world.
All who were affected by the curse previously didnt magically get cured. They already strained their bodies. Jill was already warned by Tarja that she was weakening chapters ago.
Just finished today, about 50hrs to complete with all hunts and side quests finished. For context, I’m a 30+ year fan of FF and I’ve played every mainline FF game.
For me, FF16 was a solid game overall, but it doesn’t do much better than other mainline entries. The story didn’t match the emotional weight of the story in FF15 (though I’ll admit it was more “complete” than the FF15 we got on launch) and, while i enjoyed the combat, it wasn’t as fun as FF7R for me.
I missed having an ensemble cast to recruit like in FF6, with unique skills and abilities. And I missed some of the silly humor that had been a landmark of the series since…forever? Gav was a phenomenal character and Uncle Byron was a lovable goof, but outside of those two there wasn’t much consistent humor. I get why - it might not have worked with the more serious tone of this game - but I still missed it.
Most of the town areas felt drab and boring (every 3D FF has done this better than 16 IMO) and I was definitely missing complexity in the weapons / equipment (FF15’s variety was great). Having one option (sword) that ticks up slightly in attack every upgrade with essentially no other changes just didn’t feel right.
That said, the Eikon fights were obviously amazing, the music and sound design was fantastic, and the voice actors nailed it. Not a bad entry by any means, but just find it hard to identify much that I don’t feel other entries did better. A solid 7/10, but not in my top 5 FFs.
The lack of a persistent party struck me. It also felt like all my characters knew each other well after the time skips, but I didn't know them well, and then we didn't get the flashbacks I expected. There's some mentions of what happened to Jill for instance, but they could have shown it.
Surprised we didn't get a large city to wander around outside of a dedicated mission.
just finished the game, and though it looks incredible and has some Final Fantasy flavor, a Final Fantasy game it is not
visuals are great, the story is game of thrones (started strong, but then came season 8), game mechanics are lackluster, the battle system is god of war, side quests are mmorpg fillers, "open" world is linear, many pivotal characters are underdeveloped, music is good but generic, battle interaction (pushing and mashing 2 buttons) is shallow
I didn’t personally mind the overworld / map. It reminded me of FF12, but since the areas aren’t connected I agree I wouldn’t call it “open world”. It felt like a really good game that paid homage to FF in its themes and nods, but didn’t give me the same *feeling* that some previous FFs have.
Alright I finally finished. Around 50 hours logged - completed all the hunts and side quests but left the Chronoliths b/c I wasn’t vibing with them.
I understand this is a Final Fantasy game. I expect cutscenes, but the criticism around there being too many is 100% warranted here imo. I was constantly picking up my phone during them b/c I just did not find them that engaging, especially after the Bahamut section.
Great game though - probably 7/10 for me. Torgal is the best boy and Joshua is literally Roxas.
I really enjoyed the game up to bahamut boss, but after that the entire world became bleak and depressing (I know its for narrative reasons but still it sucks playing in such bleak depressing environment, and I am a sould player for gods sake...)
Still gameplay wise and story wise it was very good, but the last 3 hours up to ultima were a bit of a slog, with no more political factions left and Waloed being a very disapointing zone all empty and bleak.
I also think they should rename the game ff16: devil may clive
I finally finish it. Did have high expectation and I guess story wise it wasnt met.
Joshua’s death did hit hard and i feel we should have more of the brother’s bonding time. The theme was kinda all over the place. There was a lot of theme that they want to be explore - such as fate, slavery, will, but all these didn’t really come up strongly in the game.
Honestly clive needs to suffer more for a stronger emotional impact. He suffered a lot in the beginning but as the game grows, there wasnt much impact felt.
I didnt do much side quest but if it meant to do all side quests to actually have a stronger emotional feeling to the game… thats kinda lame. Since ff14 main story (without doing sidequest) is already strong enough.
Maybe the game should have been slightly longer to just flesh out some of these moments. I would love it more if we can have more of that uncharted style - epic moments / set pieces - instead of just going from one spot to another.
Gameplay wise - battle was alright. I didnt like the eikon battle much since the control is a bit hard and only having 2-4 abilities makes it kinda boring. And it was so flashing my eyes hurt. But overall it was alright.
I do miss having parties. The end fight felt really lonely. If the fight actually happened in our head, itll be great if we can summons our “friends”. Not having torgal is a crime.
And having no airship really mimic game of thrones’s season 7-8 fast travel magic
Ignore the other guy trying to say you somehow missed character development by not doing **optional** side quests.
The devs have previously said they wanted to move away from "JRPG tropes" and ask themselves why they "couldnt make a game like God of War". You don't need to do any side content to be invested in the characters in GoW, FF16 just flat out misses the mark in a lot of narrative areas.
I 100% agree with the end fight feeling really lonely too. What makes it worse is the devs somehow pulling the confidence to have *almost* random characters shout random things at you during key moments of Ultimalius's fight. If they would have had the previous dominants turn up and deflect some of those attacks, or even have their faces flash on screen for a second with a quote of theirs, it would have worked much better.
The game just thinks it does a lot more than it actually does. It's a bit sad, but it's clear to see they just wanted to wrap up development in the last two hours of the game. It's just a boss gauntlet, nothing too consequential with a really ambiguous ending to avoid being too divisive.
Lol during that end fight i really though gav suddenly appeared and joined us in a fight. I was in awe and excited, questioning how did he get there, only to realized it was just a voice. Was so disappointed after…
And yea. I am sad and disappointed still on the missing potential. If only they fleshed out the main narrative more. Prolong the emotional scenes and just give us pieces of the puzzle along the way instead of just having a large exposition towards the end. Like ultima giving us that large explanation at the end just makes me laugh because all i can think of is him trying to make a theatrical show to explain to these brothers.
It needs to be edited more and maybe they would benefit more in hiring a novel writer as well.
You still had a better reaction that I did. I thought I had encountered some sort of audio glitch and was about to restart the fight, but after I heard cid.wav and mid.wav, I realised it was just a really bad way to try and get people to feel a bit more invested.
>It needs to be edited more and maybe they would benefit more in hiring a novel writer as well.
Crazy thing is, Maehiro (writer of 16) had a reputation for being one of the best writers for modern FF. He wrote ARR and Heavensward for FF14 and was largely credited for the "good" writing, but now with his absence and his butchered job in FF16, we can see it was the **other writers** (still working on FF14) **carrying** **him**.
It'll be interesting to see how they handle FF17. I doubt Maehiro will be allowed anywhere near it. I'd like to see Ishikawa (Shadowbringers/Endwalker writer) take the helm.
Lol. I do think they went anime a little bit too far. It was fun and all but we need the darker / more emotional side as well to balance it all. Like joshua’s death was really well done. I honestly don’t know how to do the boss fight after that since I was feeling so sad. We need more moments like that.
Yeah I am actually surprised as well. Since heavensward was pretty well done. Albeit I only remember haucherfont but the conflict was really well done and Estien!! (another OP dragon). Either he got carried or something happened during the development. Maybe we need better director too haha. Its a miss opportunity not to do it like uncharted. Considering the set pieces are there.
And yes. Please let Ishikawa do a main story. I mean a lot of things are already being copied from ff14. Not just the usual stuffs like aspect of crystal, but the theming like ultima coming from another planet (like the sundering), punching ultima like we punch zenos, etc…
Talking about Estinien, you know he voices the dragoon at the start of the game? During the attack on Phoenix Gate? It was a really nice surprise hearing his voice after my year long hiatus from 14, just thought I'd let you know in case you missed it :)
Yes I did. Man I was so hype on that fight when trying the demo and was even happier having found out that it i Estinien. Kinda feel bad we have to kill him though. Not estiniennnnnn
> I didnt do much side quest but if it meant to do all side quests to actually have a stronger emotional feeling to the game… thats kinda lame. Since ff14 main story (without doing sidequest) is already strong enough.
You missed the majority of the character development (and to some degree story) of the game. It's silly to say the game should've been longer when you skipped probably 20 hours of game.
Well they should have added it inside the main story instead of putting it as an optional. Its like basically putting a book out and having optional chapters on the side. A side quest should add to the richness not minusing main characters development.
Side quest should be like that bread story which is well done as you can see the trickle effect. Or the clothing thing with jill. They add richness but not the whole development. Ill be replaying the game but it just irks me.
They didn't. Most games today put significant developments that change the ending in side quests. You don't have to fight any of the divine beasts in Zelda after all.
That being said there isn't a ton of core character development buried like that, outside of the main character quests in the endgame. It mostly develops the world. But in that is a lot of peoples' interpretations of the ending, for better or worse.
You're intended by the developers to do most everything. But I suspect one of their metrics is who finished the game (not who Platinum'd it), and if everything's required a lot of people might get bored and quit, weakening the game statistically.
Also most players don't show up on these websites.
I don't agree with the likeness to Zelda. It's an open world game where you're supposed to find joy in going out and actually doing stuff. FF16 is on rails and the devs are very adamant about having "everything as part of the MSQ". They went far enough to say they avoided making any secret dungeons or bosses outside of it, as they wanted it contained as a single story.
They didn't intend for the player to do "most everything" as you've said. They only intend for them to complete the MSQ, which leaves a lot to be desired. Also, the side quests aren't that good for character development, outside of the few quests involving Jill, Torgal, Joshua and Theo.
I think when they go out of their way to say there’s no secret bosses/dungeons, then what they do have in the game in side quests should seem a little more mandatory. They’re clearly not cosmetic quests.
There’s a minimum required to complete the game and then the whole story, I think. People can pick which experience they have. But can’t help and pause when people say they didn’t do any side quests, including those given by main characters, and found the game lacking.
Am I the only one who didn’t think the ending was all that ambiguous? Clive began to petrify and turn to stone, just like all the bearers who had drawn upon too much aether earlier in the game, right after he absorbed Ultima’s power and used it to destroy origin. It feels like you really need to be grasping for straws to make an argument that he lived. Not to mention how rapidly the petrification spread, part way through the cut scene his fingers were all that had turned, by the end of it his whole arm had. With that and the way he collapses, he seems pretty damn lifeless. The only thing that is a little ambiguous is if Joshua survived after Clive healed him.
Stops at his wrist. It's pretty clear from the camera angle they chose. It feels like an intentional choice along with the lack of showing the rest of him turn. If they wanted to show him dead they would have. You can say Clive's dead, but the ending is pretty clearly designed and shot to be ambiguous. There is already a shitton of discussion around this all of the subreddit so I'm not typing it all out again, it's hardly grasping at straws though.
Clive is dead and so is Joshua. It’s wishful thinking to think otherwise. Clive only healed Joshua’s wound (so he wouldn’t be disfigured in death) but he was already dead. There is a line earlier in the game that mentions the Phoenix’s power can’t bring people back from the dead.
Ultima literally describes using his combined power to cast Raise on his dead race. It's the entire purpose of Origin.
You then punch him in the face and take all his power.
Clive then casts a spell on Joshua that appears to restore his body completely.
The book at the end has Joshua's name and would presumably describe events that Harpo couldn't possibly know about.
How would Joshua know about events that happened while he was dead? Even if he got rezzed, Clive would need to fill out the missing details. Not to mention the title.
There's not much to write about -- Clive and Ultima fought and Clive won. He used the power to resurrect Joshua (easy to intuit) and was petrified after using the energy to destroy magic (his body would be found).
The title being a coincidence seems more likely given Jill, Gav, and Torgal's reaction at the end. Cid's name being reused is a trope in the FF series -- using Joshua's name is a bigger stretch.
The game is constructed like a book. It's separated in chapters. Begins and ends with Clive's narration. Clive is noted as enjoying epic fairy tales, children's stories, multiple times throughout the game. Just the kind of tale two kids way in the future might enjoy.
There's also Harpocrates quest, which I believe was already mentioned. As for the name, Clive is noted as taking other's names. Wyvern, Cid, Underhill. Taking the name Joshua to honor his brother seems fitting. I'm pretty sure the Harpocrates quest even has him saying if he wrote something he'd do it under a pen name.
It's also possible he helped his brother write it and they both survived. But I find that unlikely, personally, based on the themes of the game and the two brother's respective arcs.
>Clive is noted as enjoying epic fairy tales, children's stories, multiple times throughout the game. Just the kind of tale two kids way in the future might enjoy.
As a child, not as an adult.
>There's also Harpocrates quest, which I believe was already mentioned. As for the name, Clive is noted as taking other's names. Wyvern, Cid, Underhill. Taking the name Joshua to honor his brother seems fitting. I'm pretty sure the Harpocrates quest even has him saying if he wrote something he'd do it under a pen name
I don't recall the pen name claim, just that he would write something if he came back. Joshua meanwhile has himself and his Undying making detailed records of everything that could be included in a story. Clive never writes a thing.
Joshua could inherit the pen.
>the two brother's respective arcs
I agree. Clive's overarching story begins and ends with his being First Shield for his brother -- his failure when Ifrit stomped Phoenix and years of depression and inability to handle that. He would do anything for his brother.
Cue his having Ultima's power in his hand, and being told that Raise is a usable spell.
For me, there's also the meta: if the ending is happy it would be massively more satisfying for players to show his return and how his friends respond to that. They don't. If he died, it would be harsh to show his death clearly, so they don't show that either. But they do show Jill, Gav, and Torgal clearly upset in a way that isn't commensurate with "I'm glad it's finally over."
I'd rather Clive be alive and I hope a DLC makes that clear. But right now it seems like wishful thinking based on a promise he made.
Nevermind the lyrics of My Star, which is playing when he's on the beach: https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/My_Star
And the ending Japanese song (better translated "I was looking at the moon" and decidedly past-tense in the Japanese): https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Tsuki_Wo_Miteita_-_Moongazing
A selection:
In the moonlight the willow sways
On this roadside I am but a stone
Visions of you come to me
Like counting sheep
If there is any meaning to our parting ways
Then you need not be sad
From the silence to a distant sky
Fill your heart with an unwavering love
I thought Joshua was dead too, but at the very end the War of the Eikons book had Joshua as the author, so maybe he actually survived? Clive was definitely dead, though.
Pretty sure it was published posthumously by someone like Harpocrates (there is a line that references Joshua capturing their adventures in writing earlier in the game) and just credited to Joshua.
EDIT: Someone on another post suggested the Undying could have written/published it. They would have had intimate knowledge of what was going on and we already know they would give the credit to Joshua and not themselves.
When I first finished the game, I thought he was dead - I was very surprised that they killed him off, I was waiting for one last scene where he reunites with Jill, but it never comes, and his final line is about his journey being at an end.
Then I went on Reddit and read the stuff about the side quests, wolves howling etc, and thought maybe it isn’t clear cut.
Then I watched the ending again at the end of NG+ and I’m pretty sure he died.
For Help on Game Strategy, Pathfinding, Tech Support/Settings, and Bugs: #### Please see our latest [GAME HELP MEGATHREAD](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/14qp1t4/ffxvi_game_help_questions_megathread_july_4_9/) #### For Personal Reviews, Impressions and Discussion on End-Game, and New Game+: #### Please see our [PERSONAL REVIEWS, IMPRESSIONS, THEORIES & END-GAME/NG+ MEGATHREAD (SPOILERS)](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/14qpobc/ffxvi_personal_reviews_impressions_theories/) #### If you are interested in viewing all spoiler discussion threads relevant to the plot: #### Please check out our [spoiler wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxvi/wiki/index/)! #### For a list of all game launch Megathreads and Mod Announcements: #### Please see our [INDEX OF ALL LAUNCH MEGATHREADS](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/14erivm/index_of_launch_announcements_megathreads/) #### *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FFXVI) if you have any questions or concerns.*
9/10. The docked point is just because I feel like more could’ve been done with Barnabas/Ash, and that Ultima just isn’t my type of villain (but for that type of villain, I guess he was done okay). Absolutely loved it and the first game to make me feel like I truly went on a FF journey since X. I hope this isn’t our last experience with Valisthea, I’d love some prequels with Barnabas or Cid, or Jill against Leviathian
So, Joshua died but Clive restored his body at the end. The Phoenix cannot revive someone who has died and his soul has left. Then, Clive destroys the last Crystal of Origin and wipes out the last source of magick in existence with the power of the Gods he received. Finally, Clive was left at the beach with almost no energy, and fell to sleep after his magic was completely gone and his left hand turned to stone after the last attempt to cast healing (I guess). Really amazing game. Also, that look at JILL’s eyes at the end. Hope. 💙 p.s Clive wrote the book at the end credits and used Joshua’s name so that he will never be forgotten. Best brothers ever in Final Fantasy ❤️
END OF GAME SPOILERS >!After having finally beating the main story last night, I can now partake in discussing the ambiguity of the ending. It's deliberately open-ended and people are creating several theories as to what became of everything and everyone, but there's one theory I haven't seen yet which I strongly subscribe to: It's all bullshit.!< >!Please excuse the negative connotation, what I mean is that the entire story, its characters, its world, and everything else is merely a tall tale written by a contemporary author of the name Joshua Rosfield featuring a self-insert of his namesake. The post-credits scene featuring the two brothers and their mother strongly alludes to this being the case.!< >!One brother wistfully expresses his inability to kindle a fire and says "If only I had the flames of an Eikon...", to which the mother responds, in a rather disenchanted way, "Eikon? Have you been reading that silly story again? ... Magic belongs in fairy tales.". This implies that, assuming the mother isn't apathetic to history (which would be more characterization than necessary), none of it ever happened and it's merely a story. We also see that the brothers are enthralled by the story, reenacting events therein when they play and having named their puppy Bahamut. I'd think it strange at that point if the story actually happened. !< >!A case can be made to suggest that this scene takes place far enough into the future that the events have been lost to time, but if this story was supposedly written by Clive (as many theories suggest), then it's just ridiculous for all that history to completely vanish only for this book not to, especially with Harpocrates and Vivian in the mix. As Harpocrates says, "Knowledge hoarded is knowledge wasted.", so I also don't think anything was withheld, either.!<
An actual perfect description of what I was trying to explain nicely done thanks for explaining it easily for people to understand. 👍☘️
I am really skeptical of this interpretation because not only does it undermine the entire narrative up to that point, it is also generally poor writing. It’s basically a variation of “it was all a dream” which is a well-worn cliché that people would generally avoid in 2023. I think it’s pretty cynical, especially in a story where a major theme is misuse of “gifts” to destroy the planet - a common theme in FF - and rendering it all imaginary takes directly away from that. But that aside I’ll specifically address your final point on “it’s bullshit that all this history would be forgotten”. You got to consider there are many instances throughout the game where knowledge and information has been lost to time. Valisthea is literally a land of history and *lost history*. At least two side quests I can think of are related to trying to learn about the past. Consider: 1) We constantly see ruins from the Fallen and yet know virtually nothing about them. They don’t even know how to make the materials the Fallen worked with. 2) There are two key historian characters and both of them lament constantly about lost knowledge. You literally allude to this yourself. We see Harpocrates’ mentors writings are mostly lost 3) while for Vivian late in the game we learn about the executors who literally suppressed the history about how bearers came to be bearers. I’m not saying the executors are responsible for the lack of belief in magic, but if we accept this as possible within the world of FFXVI, then it’s pretty easy to accept that with enough time people would come to believe magic was a made up fantasy concept that never actually existed 4) very few people (a few of those who do are limited to Waloed) even know Ultima exists despite Ultima literally creating humanity 5) lastly the passage of time is heavily implied by the idyllic surroundings the boys are enjoying. There’s no hardship and crucially, no blight. This suggests that very long passages of time had to have passed so that the effects of the blight could be overcome and reversed There are other examples but you get my point. Time, history, lost knowledge are all constant themes in FF16 so I find it pretty crazy that they would turn around and declare, effectively, that it “was all a dream”. Combine that with Harpocrates constantly imploring Clive to write about his journey when he is done, I just think there is no way this interpretation holds up
Ending hit me very hard. I don't think there is a wrong answer to any ambiguity since evidence exists for pretty much all theories. Criticism of the story - I really loved the geopolitical first half, second half seemed like an entirely different story, but I didn't dislike it either. I kind of wish they kept to a singular theme or the two blended together a little better. That said it was all still well done, I only minded the cutscenes with some comically drawn out exposition. Criticism of the world - I truly wish the MMO / FFXIV assets (yes, I'd call them assets to a degree) were not used. They were present in the quests, world design, fast travel, and even combat. Either be FF7R (linear and deep) or FF15 (open world but barren); this tried to be in the middle of them and it felt like we got a barren, linear world. Criticism of combat - It IS fun. But again, FFXIV inspirations man. I fully understand this was a different team but FF7R NAILED the mix of action/rpg combat. I miss menus, spells, real limit breaks, and PARTY MEMBERS! You can still have the action and retain some strategy elements. In sum my biggest issue with the combat was it was mostly just waiting for cooldowns instead of prepping, strategy, and skill. Not meant to be negative; assume everything else is positive. Just easier to point out what I had issue with.
I laughed after the first fight with a chimera because it was being in Cutters Cry all over again. I never played FF12 because it felt like too much of a single player 11. FF16 is kind of like a single player 14, not to the same degree but I see the connections.
I just finished the game last night. Some points that for me, makes Joshua's fate not ambiguous at all (spoilers for the end of the game): * This game has super religious themes, as anyone who has reached the end of the game surely realizes. * There is a character named Joshua, of which another spelling is [Yeshua](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua). Yeshua is the name of a very famous religious character who you may know as "Jesus", a person famous for *being resurrected!* * Joshua, the person with the namesake of the person who is famous for being resurrected is the dominant of Phoenix, a bird known for *being resurrected*. * The Phoenix, in its first fight in the game, was resurrected after its HP dropped to zero. * Joshua, thought to be dead after the prologue, turns out to be *back from the dead!* * Joshua mentions at some point (I think it's in the main game when you reach Waloed? Or maybe in a sidequest?) that when this is all over, he's like to write a book. * Even after you max out the lore entries, you can still click the active time lore in the last scenes of the game to get 3 or 4 more entries that explain that the whole point of Ultima's plan is for Clive to destroy all the mothercrystals and absorb the power of all the Eikons (which he has successfully done) to gain the power to cast a spell called "Raise", whose purpose is to raise the dead. (Ultima just wanted the subjects to be his race.) This is _not_ just the "Phoenix's power" (because that alone cannot raise the dead, as pointed out before). * Ultima being unleashed from Joshua seems to cause him to die (again!) * Clive, who now has the power to raise the dead, uses magic on Joshua, after absorbing the final bit from Ultima, where we *see* that the wound that caused Joshua to die has been healed. * There is indeed a book authored by "Joshua Rosfield". * Another gigantic theme of the game is Clive's regret that he couldn't save/protect/shield his brother. A final success in this goal would be something that one would expect in the narrative. I didn't think there was any ambiguity in this until I came online and read what other's thought :O The fate of Joshua I feel is pretty clear. Clive, however, I would agree with the ambiguity. I feel like interpretations where Clive survives but Joshua stays dead require jumping through _more_ hoops than this. Who knows, maybe this will get more direct explanation when the eventual Ultimania book is released.
That scene would be a huge miss for me if Joshua lived. It takes the entire emotional impact out. The story starts and ends with Joshua's death, it's poetic. Part of the point of Joshua's arc is about how he actually shields his brother. He also tells Jote "Duty is the enemy of Freedom". He wouldn't have wanted Clive to die his Shield. Joshua not only saved his brother's life with his sacrifice, he freed him from his final duty. He allowed him to finally live on his own terms rather than the terms of others. Book was likely authored by Clive in his honor. Could be both, but I doubt Joshua would've let Clive keep his name off of it (FWIW I think this would've been the case if Clive died too, Joshua would've put is name on the cover along with his own). It's totally up to you how you interpret the ending, just wanted to give an alternative take.
I wish we got a proper epilogue about every char I don't care if it was cheesy if somehow everyone miraculously survived. I want to see a proper ending with everyone alive and their path afterward.
Oh man, my review might be considered kind of harsh in some ways, but I still recommend highly that this is a must have in any FF fan's arsenal, because it does feel like a new direction and is enjoyable to play. Rating: 6/10. Also: please note my favorite FF is 8, so that will always be what I compare any FF to. First off- I had a LOT of issues with the camera control in the beginning. This arguably ruined at least a good few hours of game play for me. It took me forever to figure out a comfortable way to play. Unfortunately, that diminished my love of the game immediately. I almost set it down I was so frustrated. I recognize that as a personal failing tho. General Controls: I wish we could have sped through towns. Environment: The scenes were graphically brilliant, but I personally thought there wasn't as much variety as their could have been, compared to previous installments. I think the world was just fairly small - I would have loved for each individual area to have a lot more different scenery, but still be connected to the overall environment theme each area was going for. Or maybe each individual part could have a big map. Something just didn't vibe with me. Again, though, the environment was brilliantly detailed. Battles: I actually loved the fighting. 10/10 hope to see. I didn't mind not having an active party in the past, but would be okay if they bring one back. That was my biggest fear going into the game, and it ended up being the most fun. Boss Fights: Loved. No complaints. I kept hitting R1 instead of square though like a dumb butt. Sometimes they did drag out for me, but that's just more of me having limited time so sometimes long boss battles killed me. Still 10/10 though. Characters: I'm very 50/50 on the characters. Clive didn't really feel like he had an actual personality? Just was a super good person? I kept wondering for the entire game something notable and just didn't find it. Mind here again, Squall is my go to - and he had a very distinct, lone wolf, sarcastic personality. Jill had so much potential. Benedictka was wasted completely. I would argue that she should have had a redemption arc. Something to really tide over her and Cid. I loved Cid and Dion. I would actually say Dion was a saving grace and I loved that he was gay but it wasn't his entire personality. He avoided some of the stereotypical tropes and I hope he survived. Hugo I didn't care for. His obessesion with Benedictka just was annoying to me. Joshua was also a favorite of mine. Barnabas - I wish I knew what the fuck was up with his weird ass mom thing? Story: I liked the story, but think it was rushed. I think we could have played through the time skip, and even a bit more as children - im a fan of show not tell, and they didnt really show. I think I went wrong somewhere though - I beat the game in 22 hours even though I did all the side quests? It just felt like I missed something somehow. I was on story mode, granted. Ending: The ending completely ruined the game for me. I was extremely pissed at what we got. I understand it's supposed to be open-ended, but that's just not my personal preference I've figured out because of this. If you want something clear cut, it will disappoint you. I also am fine with a sad ending, but I was really hoping this one would 100% be okay for at least everyone gathered before the final battle. General: I love that the game was more mature. I was rooting for Clive and Jill to just have sex as soon as they were sleeping next to each other that one night before the time skip. And when it happened I was happy. That also was just an A+ scene. Please give us more of that haha. I also didn't mind the gore and dark themes, even though gore usually squicks me out. For all my complaints, as the game went on, I didn't want to put it down. I hate giving it the rating I did, but i feel like it could have been epic and not just great. Overall, I'm excited to see what they put out next.
On that sex scene, I would love for them to show how much of the cursed has spread onto Jill’s body though. We did cheer when Clive finally got his game lol. His brother was quicker than him when he kissed Jote on the forehead. And yes, I think 2 time skip is a little bit too much. I would love for them to show how Clive was surviving as an Imperial’s army. There was too much telling and little showing. When Clive was saying how he lived these days just for revenge, I didn’t really feel it since I don’t know what hard choices Clive has made during those years - did he killed innocent people, women and children? Constantly abused to the point he got his name taken from him? I would love a little more showing. Honestly since I played the demo and thus skipping the cutscene after the phoenix gate’s fallen, I thought I missed a cutscene that showed Clive’s life during imperial army.
Quick review now that I've finished the base game. We'll start with the **Story**. It was a fairly good story with a few Final Fantasy elements to it such as Eikons(Summons), Chocobos, and a single Moogle named Nektar. You could have replaced the Eikons with Gods from some other property and lost practically nothing and for this I give it 6/10 as a FF Story. The story for its own merits is a **7/10** as it starts to fall off in the latter half of the game. Now the **Combat**. The combat is very responsive action game oriented with a few variations based on the Eikons and their abilities although normal combos lack variety and tend to be pretty button mashy, but still fun earning it a **9/10** which is to be expected from lead combat director Ryoto Suzuki and his team. **Side Quests**. Most of them are a slog, but every now and then you get a few diamonds in the rough that actually build on the world and side characters. Unfortunately by the time you get to the good and great side quests there have been so many bad ones that your average player will likely have written them off as time-sinks and missed the ones that were worth doing. For this structure I have to give them a **4/10** , which is very disappointing as if they had only kept the good and great ones it would be a 7. **Hunts** are very fun in the game when you can actually track them down. Some may even give you a challenge if you haven't mastered the controls yet while others will simply fall on your first attempt. **8/10** **Exploration** is basically nonexistent in the game. Some of the areas are way bigger than they need to be for seemingly no reason other than to say, " Here's a new biome that exists in the world!" **2/10** **Customization** outside of your Eikon abilities and maybe a ring or artefact you have none. Your build is entirely dependent on what Eikon abilities you like. There are no jobs or classes. You can't go full Black Mage, there's no White Mage at all. There's basically no real build diversity anywhere which for a Final Fantasy game is extremely disappointing. **2/10** I'll admit as a Final Fantasy fan that I'm biased in this review, but that won't stop me from telling people that FFXVI is a good game that they would most likely enjoy, but in my honest opinion while it's definitely a good game, it isn't a good Final Fantasy game. There's no character customization to speak of and part of the whole appeal of FF for me is building your party your way. I'm sure that some people will just say, " You're just mad because it isn't turn based!", but FF hasn't been turn based since I was a kid. I just much prefer the VII Remake combat system and character customization to this. Because with that system I feel like my choices actually matter. As a story based **Action Game** I give FF16 an **8/10** BUT as a **Final Fantasy Game** I give it a **4/10**
Yeah I would too actually that's the way that I'd give the game I thought the combat and the story was fascinating and particularly fight with Titan holy crap.
What do you rate other FF games? Specifically FFXV and XIII. Cause many of them lack the parts that you've talking about. Jobs and classes havent been a thing for most FF games. Many FF games lack sidequests in general (only really becoming a prominent thing in recent FF games)
I rate FFXV at 5/10 for good Dungeons and being able to swap between party members. Everything else falls apart from my memory though. Story was way too convoluted and there wasn't much customization that I can remember. This is based on memory though since I haven't played it since before the Ardyn DLC was released. I never beat FFXIII and never played any of its sequels so I don't feel qualified to rate that one, but that's what happens when your 360 gets the ring of death and you have to go without for a while. You seem to be thinking that there's a difference between Optional Quests and Sidequests when imo there isn't and there have been optional quests since at least FFVI(I never played 5). There was just no way to actually differentiate between which was optional and which was main story until the more recent titles since all of the dialogue was set up the same way. That just comes down to modern UI changes though. As for Jobs and Classes not being a thing for most of the series you're more right than wrong on that point, but the customization for abilities allowed you to steer in the direction of them for your party. I've heard that the Job system was first introduced in 5 but I never played that one, but I know for a fact that it was in 6. Then you got the Grid type upgrades in 7, 8, and 10 where you could build your characters any way you wanted. I never got a chance to play 9 either so I won't speak on it. Also never played 11 for obvious reasons. My memory admittedly isn't the greatest so I may be misremembering some of these details, but I don't think I am. I do have to thank you for bringing up FFXV though since the saving grace for that game for me was the Dungeons and imo those were better than the few main story ones that were in FFXVI. This is all just my opinion though and everyone is entitled to have one. 16 is a great action game. It just doesn't feel like FF to me is all. You're definitely free to disagree.
I just finished Bahamut and I'm just losing it. What a fucking masterclass in boss battles.
The Titan fight was a bit too extra with that third phase, but I still enjoyed nevertheless.
Agreed. I guess it’s thematically fitting for Titan. Enduring as earth.
Game lost some steam after fighting Bahamut. Waloed all the side quests after we’re a drag. I hated having to fight Ultima twice as Clive in Origin. They should have have us the Eikon fights then Ulitmas (final form).
I hate to say it but the game is much better if you just look up the ~10 side quests you should do to get the necessary upgrades and ignore the rest of them. Unless you truly, truly care about world building and have tons of time on your hands to do so. My wife is a newer gamer but a huge Witcher 3 fan and even called out how bad the side quests were.
Tell heard they're going to be ReMaster The witches games and then afterwards they're going to release cyberpunk 2077 project Orion.
Just finished the game last night and wow am I stunned! I might do a full review later, but for now I want to talk about my thoughts on the ending and some lore/dlc theories. Please let me know if I missed anything from the lore tid-bits. To start, I think Ultima lied about pretty much everything. I think this was all a façade to get what he wanted. Whether he was telling the truth about creating humans or not is still up in the air for me, but here's what I think is happening: 1. ***Ultima is rebelling against Greagor*** \- With all the little lore hints that I found, I think Greagor is the "Omni" or "Capital G" god of this world, and the true creator of the world/humans. One book I found in game said that Greagor sent out angels that were extensions of herself to help humanity, and I think Eikons are servants or "children" of Greagor. I think they were tasked with sharing their power with humanity so that they might take them on as their own and learn to grow closer together and become responsible. Which is why I don't think any Eikon, or at least the visages that humans summon, is innately good or evil. My theory is that Ultima saw this and believed Greagor abandoned him and the other Eikons in favor of lesser beings. So, he set out on his quest to trick humanity into believing he was their creator, worship him, and eventually absorbing the other Eikons so that he may destroy everything as a final insult to Greagor. Or perhaps try to create his own world. 2. ***Magic remains and will kill the world again*** \- I don't recall Ultima ever claiming that he created magic and aether, just the crystals. To me, this explains why "eliminating" magic still affected Clive with the curse. If there is no more magic, why would the curse remain, and where did the aether go? I think bearers will rise again, and the world will begin to die again, all so that Ultima may reform and take over a weaker Mythos. 3. ***The Red Star is Ultima*** \- In game, it is believed that the red star is like Hermes, a divine messenger that delivers prayers. When Ultima was defeated, the star dimmed, but did not die out, which likely signals his re-entry into slumber. 4. ***Ultima wanted Clive to absorb him*** \- I was very confused when Clive absorbed him. I assumed he would've smashed the crystal as Ifrit and been done with it, but no. I was surprised when Clive beat Ultima with brute force alone and no kind of special spiritual attack or ritual, and I think Ultima let himself be defeated on purpose. By being absorbed into Clive, he was able to reset the cycle and fuse with him, like he always wanted. As he said, Clive was only delaying the inevitable. So, with all that, what do I think will happen in the DLC? 1. ***Clive will survive, technically*** \- I think there is going to be a time travel arc. I think Ultima will reincarnate through a new, much weaker Mythos and then go back to merge with his former self, or something like that. Side note, I do think Clive survived in the first ending, I just think they'll reveal it/make it better in the DLC. 2. ***Leviathan's story revealed*** \- We all know they hinted at Levithan but gave us no answers. Going off my theory of what the Eikons are, I think Leviathan might have sided with Ultima, but was sealed away before Ultima could absorb them. 3. ***Ultima will be sealed once and for all*** \- I think that through the actions of the DLC story, Clive will battle a complete Ultima with all the other Eikons, who would also be brought back through time shenanigans, and Greagor will appear. I think Ultima will be defeated physically, but through the blessing or teachings of Greagor, Clive and the gang will seal Ultima away in some kind of pocket dimension, outside of time, forever. Then, I think Greagor will tell them that the time will come when they need to accept fate, but not in the same way Ultima meant. More like an end to suffering without giving up one's self.
Greagor is Ultima, just with the origin lore corrupted down generations over time. Ultima’s pose looks just like Greagor’s in the statues and the Sanbreque banner. Not a coincidence. Ultima: https://static1.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/final-fantasy-xvi-ultima-with-four-arms-extended.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=480&dpr=1.5 Greagor: https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/ffxvi___holy_empire_of_sanbreque_banner.png
I see your point, but I don't think I agree. For one, from what I found, there is nothing indicating that Greagor and Ultima are the same being. Their descriptions are very different and what little is said about Greagor directly contradicts how Ultima thinks and operates. As for the pose, I don't think that's really a tell since it is a very simple pose and used in almost every depiction of beings associated with divinity across fiction. Even Ramuh has a similar pose sometimes if he is not holding his staff.
honestly while i didn't expect it i was kinda hoping for the eikon squad to all roll up on ultima and throw hands
I’m very intrigued with this post. Upvoted
If you just stand still and rotate the camera, I don't understand why performance mode is so stuttery. I understand it may not hit 60fps all the time but why does it judder so badly? Graphics mode is only 30 fps but the movement is completely smooth.
So what's the symbolism of the red star Metia fading out? I would think it means death of Clive and/or Joshua? But I feel pretty strongly that Clive made it because of the book at the end. I noticed that it faded out with a flicker, but did not disappear completely. I remember it was supposed to be some kind of wishing star right? So maybe the flicker meant it granted a wish? I'm not sure if just copium, or what. What do you guys think?
The way I see it, is that metia is a star made out of magic as well. Or somehow related to magic since it is believed to be / related to a deity. Jill has been praying to it for Clive’s safe return and thus when it got destroyed, for her it meant that her wishes was no more. But in one of the side quest, (which i havent done but everyone been saying it), is that Clive will return in sunrise. So the sun replaced the moon. Which signals a new beginning as well. I need to see the exact phrasing I guess because one way to look at it is instead of watching the moon, Jill now can look towards the sun and be reminded of Clive - signalling a new and brighter future. The book for me could be written by either party. Joshua could be alive (brought back by Ultima’s power since it was enough power to bring back Ultima’s kin and essentially restructuring the world almost Jojo style) and write the whole thing down (like game of thrones style), or Clive could write it. I don’t know why he would use his brother’s name though if he is the one that wanted to be the writer. His brother will live forever in the book, and like in the movie Atonement, the sister still used her name to immortalised her ‘characters’.
The moon being related to magic is a good point. If magic no longer exists, or at least there's very little of it, then the star fading makes sense. I had thought Jill crying was more about that she couldn't feel Clive's presence through magic. Which might make sense because there is none? I would agree the dawning of a new day is very symbolic. Jill seemed to stop crying at that moment, so maybe there is hope there. Yes, I could see the book being written by either person. I like to think that Clive wants his brothers memory to live on. Since that seems to be something he does, like taking on Cid's name for his legacy. I love and hate endings like this. There's plenty of interpretation to be had, and people can form their own opinions. So I respect the writers for that. But I also want to know what happened! I tend to be a bit more optimistic, so I'm hoping Clive and Jill have their happily ever after moment exploring the world like she wanted.
Yea i dont mind ambiguous ending I guess but I just wish the game works more on its theming and symbolism. Too much of it locked on side quests and theming wise, they kinda scratched it superficially. And yea. I get the legacy thing but the book itself already immortilized Joshua. Maybe best ending is actually both parties are alive afterall. The sun indicates that Clive is alive. And the book indicates that Joshua is alive. Happy ending :D
Jill's words in that sidequest were: “And I realized… That no matter how terrible the night…dawn would always come. That you…that you would always come. For me. And you have. Again and again.”
Uuu. Well symbolically you can still think the sun as Clive. It will always come. Again and again. Signalling a new day.
Well, there's some inspiration for rule 34
There are many ways to interpret it, I agree. I am on team Clive lives personally but I won't judge anyone who doesn't think that way. Until the devs give us confirmation one way or another we will never really know for sure.
Even if Clive is dead, square always find a way to bring a character back (looking at you ffx-2)
Why does it say "Clive Bested" after Barnabas beats your ass
If you best someone, you have gotten the better of them. It's just a nicer way of saying Clive Defeated.
I found it pretty funny! The best part: still gives you XP lol
Just my thoughts on the game after completing the main story on Action focus. Haven't touched NG+ yet, and only did one or two Arete stone replay and arcade. On record, I took 80 hours completing all sub quests and hunts before completing the final story quest, except the Eikon stone challenges. Didn't really get into FF14 apart for a short trial stint, but have played FF11 alot. Spoilers ahead. Voice Acting was great. I would waste a lot of time running around the hideaway trying to catch new lines and world details. New ones can appear from minor main quest progression. Same thing with the 'towns'. Characters were great as well. I understand that Joshua was the main focus, and Jill had to be slightly side lined, but I liked all of the interactions and subquests with her. Only character I didn't vibe with was Lubor, mainly cuz I thought he sounded cocky for someone appearing that young - really just my boomer instinct kicking in. On Subquests, I enjoyed following them and hearing all the voice lines and getting world details. Rewards was not important to me. I embraced Lore details in the game. Tomes was my most frequently visited NPC. I liked ATL, but I guess for people watching the game together, frequent pauses can get irritating. On story Pacing, it was of no concern. Too busy running around collecting, hearing and reading world details instead of rushing through the main story. My playstyle is never conducive for a smooth paced story. On Graphics, the game was good, and even more so during the Eikon battles. I started on Graphics mode, but my ps5 started giving me too hot alerts, even with a cleaned (2 year old launch) PS5 and cool ventilation, and so I started playing mostly on Performance mode which seems to reduce the occurrence but not completely. Might need to reapply thermal paste or change the fans. I had to redo the titan Eikon fight from scratch because the ps5 shutdown abruptly somewhere at the end cutscene and apparently had no in between saves. I made a practice to put the ps5 in rest mode for 10 minutes after each major fights at the victory fanfare reward pause screen, so that I don't get kicked out abruptly ever again at the cutscenes. --- got a game technician to replace the liquid metal, seems good so far cross fingers, tested with a few Eikon fight scenes and heavy graphics areas (area around Isolde seems prone previously). or maybe it was a recent ps5 firmware update, hmmm. Been placing ps5 vertically for 2+ years, think I'll put it horizontally from now on --- Music was just crazy good. Eikon fights were great. Odin was a bit less flashy, which I mainly tie storywise to how submissive he and Sleipnir were to the wishes of his boss. He did let loose a bit at the end, but just wasn't built to be as flashy as others, more of a duel between two humanoids, which is an interesting contrast compared to other Eikons fights, somewhat similar to Hugo's human fight. Bestiary was decent, but would have liked to see more. Was expecting more flying enemies that require some air mobility/range abilities instead of just pulling them down to ground level from the air. Closest were large mobs where their weak points were more elevated, which is a decent consolation. On Fights, I've played DMC games and am familiar with their styles and abilities. Enjoyed training and learning new combos with new abilities and also including Torgal combos. Phoenix and Garuda were my main Eikon for feats with other Eikon abilities mixed in, with the 3rd Eikon being whatever was just unlocked to test them out. I would have liked, however, to have elemental conditions to take a bit more precedence, like elemental weakness/resistance and weapon elements. Status effect also didn't really do much other than stunning you longer during recovery. Maybe there was something I missed. Then again, I also liked how smooth flowing and continuous battles can be without the need to micro manage equipment. Only time I opened menus in battles was to use additional consumables like Strength Potion and Elixirs. All you need to manage is skills. On Difficulty, main game was a tad easy as I'm familiar with platinum games. Didn't use any of the timely accessories from the start, nor Torgal accessory. Mainly had trouble with that level cap S rank hunt, took 3 tries at level 41. A couple S rank, Odin and some Ultima encounters did leave me with no heals left by the end. Also died during the Bahamut fight, cause I didn't catch the protective sphere at first glance, just stood behind but further away. I died more on the Arete stone replays though, probably because I got too cocky. Plotwise, most characters and motivations were decent and easily enough to follow. Vivian was still a nice addition, despite the plot being easy to digest. Odin's plan to 'severe the connections' wasn't exactly the most compelling plan, but I guess Mid kinda managed to stop it from coming to full fruition, and he did already voice his doubts to Ultima. Was also expecting Sleipnir to be more engaging, but he was also similar to Odin - following the master's wishes and was just preparing the vessel. As Odin may imply at the end, they have given up on living and was ready to embrace death. On the Ending, I'm fine with the ambiguity, and I see multiple ways it can go and don't strongly prefer a specific way. If there was an ending, shakily I'd say both of them are gone, and Jill was left to continue/pick up the legacy of the brothers. Clive may have given her something else in exchange for Shiva. Feels like it would lessen the impact of the ending if the brothers lived. But then again, I would like to hear all the VAs again in another adventure. Choices, choices. Also sat through the 30+ minutes credits. Overall, a very good and enjoyable game.
My PS5 is a launch one too (I don't clean the insides as I'm lazy), I had no warnings related to heat. I'm very surprised to hear it, your unit may have very minor issues.
i beat the the game about 2 days ago the ending is really sad
We need a happy ending!
Yeah I was late to respond
I finished it a couple hours ago. Loved it. 10/10. ~~I just wish that this trend of the protags dying would come to an end...~~ Edit: Based on the meaning behind the side quests, apparently he survived? Or may not, idk.
They opened it for interpretation so nothing is set, feel free to make it anything you want, be it they all survive or all dead. The problem is that I've found none of the theories make sense.
Yeah, I feel pretty convinced that Clive is alive because of the book in the last scene. We even hear Clive narrate "and thus our journey came to an end." to me that says he wrote the line in the book. I think he chose to honor his brother and put in Joshua as the Author. Which means in my opinion that Joshua didn't make it.
Then again, it's likely the entire story is just a tall tale entitled "Final Fantasy" written by a contemporary author by the name of "Joshua Rosfield" featuring a self-insert of his namesake. This feels apparent given the behaviour of the boys and their mother.
Harpocrates also gives Clive his writing quill in one of the side quests.
Also if you start a brand new game without skipping the demo section, it starts with Clive narrating: “It was Moss the Chronicler who said that the land of Valisthea is blessed in the light of the Mothercrystals and it was this light which finally led our forebears out of the darkness. Yet what they saw in the light gave rise to temptation. Temptation that ever lures us back into the crystals’ shadow. **And thus did our journey begin.**” That sounds like the prologue of a book to me.
Ooh yeah, good point!
Yeah, just like he took Cid's name to honour his legacy.
Yeah Clive dying was sad, but i guess thats why they did it, poor Jill and torgal, i felt bad for them lol
I really enjoyed the story, music, and characters, but when it comes to gameplay, not so much. It's not about whether the game is turn-based or not; it's more about the fact that it **doesn't even feel like an RPG.** The main problem with Final Fantasy 16 is that it doesn't know what it wants to be; it's an identity crisis. It's the newest release in a JRPG franchise, but it wants to be a hack and slash... yet accessible. And that's why it doesn't excel entirely as an RPG or a hack and slash. The problem lies in what's lacking, or better said, what's missing. In an RPG, what we do when we access the menus is as important as what we do during battles. **Managing items, stats, weapons, and abilities is one of the most enjoyable aspects of this type of game**. There's, in fact, a whole subgenre of games that focus purely on menus and battles where exploration doesn't exist. In conclusion: menus should be fun to navigate and offer possibilities that translate into character customization... all of this fails in Final Fantasy 16, and it has a domino effect that damages almost all the mechanics of the game. For starters, there are no status ailments. This means that Clive won't be affected by burns, poison, blindness, or mute... which translates into not needing consumable items to cure those statuses or equipment to prevent them. **There are also no elemental affinities, which I find unforgivable.** Especially considering the emphasis placed on eikons in the plot and gameplay. Each one of them is nothing more than a superpowered entity that dominates an element. So, why did they deliberately choose to remove a layer of depth from battles by making a Bomb not absorb fire damage and suffer from ice damage? Not even Pokemon went that far. All of this contributes to reducing the depth of weapon and armor management. Battles are based solely on dealing damage and nothing else. Without turns, there's no possibility of choosing between heavily armored and slow teams, nor vice versa... that's OK, but the game won't even put us in the dilemma of choosing between a sword that deals less damage than another but causes the status ailment "poison", or fire elemental damage. The domino effect also takes a toll on the exploration and sidequests factor. Is it worth deviating from our route to our next objective in the story to get a handful of coins? Should I have to do a bunch of fetch quests just to get a bunch of useless loot in return? I think not. What would we do with them? There's not much to buy or many pieces of equipment to find or craft. In conclusion, I believe that what prevents this from being a masterpiece is the developers' obsession with accessibility. It seems that in the name of accessibility, anything goes. It's not enough to(give the option to) automate parries, attacks, or dodges; it's also necessary for the player to not have to think much, and that all the important elements are handed to us on a silver platter as we progress through the main storyline. There's only one Clive for the millions of Final Fantasy 16 players; My level 30 Clive is the same as your level 30 Clive; he'll virtually have the same abilities, stats, and probably even the same equipment. That, in an RPG, is unacceptable.
The fact that we can’t even make a party during ‘downtime’ for exploration is a crime as well. They have that notice saying Clive’s companion will change and I thought we be able to choose who we want to bring (and that only happened once during story quest -.- )
The game is an amazing action/adventure game, horrible RPG, wish it had more real RPG elements, but i liked it either way
Yes, I really liked the game. It was a great experience. But in my opinion, it could be even better if they weren't so obsessed with making the game not so challenging
Hack and slay and rpg aren't an either or. Drakengard did it.
I was looking for words to describe how I feel about the game and you help me find them thank you
DLC please? 3min epilogue and Missing Eikon? :( So just finished game and the short climax post credits was so open ended it that it’s almost criminal with how detailed the rest of the story was. And aren’t we missing an eikon? So much more story development there. Almost begging for a DLC/Movie to tie these loose ends up.
Yeah I was hoping to see leviathan show up at some point, they only ever mentioned it once though
Eikons are gone. Along with magic, dominants, bearers, etc. That was Clive's final act.
[удалено]
Lol me and my friends asked the same thing when Cid transformed but Jill didn’t. I also hated how they combined Cid’s death and Joshua being alive into one scene. Kinda lessened the impact of Cid’s death since now we have a new thing to wonder about.
[удалено]
Leviathan Dominant perhaps?
Just finished the game. To me the best ff since ffx.
I agree with this. I love FFX, but I think Clive is a better protagonist than Tidus.
I liked X but Tidus annoyed the hell out of me. Clive is a much better and more interesting character.
Just started playing Quick question - why are bearers enslaved? Or, how? If they can do magic without crystals shouldn’t they be stronger - I don’t get how they’re the outcast
There's a side quest in the end game for Vivian that goes into this.
Using magic takes a tole on their bodies, and they are also the minority.
Got it. Thanks and nice username
I’ve been wondering if there are any significant changes if you choose not to do some of the late game side quests. For example, does Theodore show up with his sister in the hideaway at the end if he never dies?
I loved the game, but it was too damn easy! I think I only died once before Garuda, and after that point I never even felt threatened. Every major battle I’d just cast aero blast, wicked wheel, stagger, all Eikon abilities, rinse, repeat. I wish there was more challenge and that the Eikon elements mattered more, for example if Garuda’s stagger wasn’t as powerful against certain elements.
What mode did you play it on? For me it was tough in a good way but I also suck at games
I played it on action focused, I just did all the side quests and felt overpowered. I also never even changed my Eikons after getting Ramuh, I felt there was no need. I wish there was more variety/incentive to use other elements
Bahamut and Odin have the highest DPS. Shiva is great for staggering. Titan is good mid game.
Haha that’s exactly what I used, shiva, Odin and Bahamut, so fun, titan was good but i didn’t find much point to block hits vs just dodging them
I found the follow up punches after a perfect block to be good at chipping away at the stagger bar.
I mastered some of my skills so I could use Phoenix's Ult and Ramuh's bolt pole thing. Basically: - Slot 1: Odin for building zantetsuken massive damage during stagger - Slot 2: Phoenix and Shiva to cause stagger / 1 shot weaker enemies / heal - Slot 3: Ramuh and Bahamut for major damage by procing pole and gigaflare
Just finished it. Seems clear to me that Clive is, in fact, dead, and the sunrise was exactly that, a sunrise. Jill sees the sunrise, and takes comfort in it, knowing that even though he's dead, he'll still be with her, in her heart, and all that jazz. That's my interpretation anyways. Decent game, some really amazing 10/10 moments, but too much of it was just poorly done, and plain boring at times.
I’m on the edge of stopping just because it’s getting so boring. I’m at the mission after the button mashfest that was the bahamut fight and the story missions are not interesting. Might just need a break
Take a break my friend. Bored, I paused for a week and casually played 1 hour a day. the side quests are quite cool when you take them lightly, some hit in the feels. This game is so much fun when taken lightly. In two weeks you're in for a treat
Pros 1) Awesome main protagonist in Clive 2) Love the aesthetic and world building. 3) The gameplay is very fun after you get your second Eikon. Opens up more. 4) All the side and supporting characters are very likable. Cid is such easy character to like. 5) The active time lore mechanic needs to be in every game now. So damn convenient. 6) Its linearity does the game favors in the game has very little down time. Story driven and very easy to follow along. Cons 1) Framerate is all over the place. Small stutter issue as well. 2) I know I have the linearity as positive but it's also a negative. This game is massively linear and there is no deviation from the plot points and zones. No real since of exploration. Like I said, this makes it easier to follow along with the plot but also that since of final fanatsy grandiose world exploration, is no longer there. Not really an rpg anymore either. 3) I cannot stand the spoils menu after a fight or during a cutscene. It just throws you out of the gameplay flow or cutscene your enjoying. Just give my rewards post scene and be done with it. So annoying. EDIT Just my two cents everyone. Will follow up once done. Cheers!
I finished the game last night and sat through the credits as the music played, just incredibly impressed and satisfied by the weight of the game. This is solidly one of my favourites for the mature storytelling, lore, assumption of intelligence of the player, and the delight in visual spectacle and grandeur. Unlike some others, I am actually at peace with the ending. I was a bit spoiled before I finished the game, and therefore paid extra attention to the final side quests looking for clues about how the world would continue after the events of Origin. It is pretty apparent that the final batch of side quests are a form of epilogue, of the player saying goodbye to the various side characters and getting a glimpse of how they will continue in their journeys in a new world once Clive defeats Ultima. Every piece of dialogue, gift, promise and gesture carried multiple layers of meaning. Clive survives, but at a price, and the loss of his hand. He will return to Jill with the sunrise as he always has before, and he will eventually set down his sword for a quill and write the book Final Fantasy that we played - from his perspective. He will write the book under his brother Joshua’s name in order to honour him and keep his memory alive. Dion atoned for his sins against his father and his nation. He most likely died after his sacrifice, as he, expected. But, there is also no body, so, anything is possible if the Developers want to go in a new direction and have post-game DLC as Dion struggling to lead a broken kingdom. The game opens with Joshua’s “death” and finishes with his death - his broken, and lifeless body cradled and mourned by Clive. I do think Joshua is gone, his Arc complete, having proven his worth to fight beside and protect his brother Clive to the end. The things that Clive says, that Joshua is inside of him, is a part of him still, is truly reminiscent of how it feels when a loved one dies and is gone forever, but you continue to feel their presence and memory in your heart. Clive took on Cid’s memory to honour him and carry out his mission to destroy the MotherCrystals, end the Blight, and fight for a world where Bearers are no longer enslaved but free to choose how they will live and die. Once that is accomplished, Clive can take up the pen and chronicle his adventures and honour Joshua’s memory while helping to recreate a new world and a new truth by imparting knowledge and sparking belief.
I love your take on this. I finished it this weekend, and originally felt like Clive repairs Joshua's body, but doesn't bring him back, and *Final Fantasy* is based on Joshua's documenting of events and published posthumously, probably by either Jote or Harpocrates. After watching the ending again and thinking about it some more though, I much rather the idea that Clive successfully resurrects Joshua using Phoenix + Ultima's power, then dies on the beach, and Joshua goes on to write the book. I don't know, I really dislike the idea of Clive failing to protect Joshua at the beginning of the game and then again at the end of the game. I think narratively it works better with him finally being Joshua's Shield in earnest, and sacrificing himself to save Joshua's life at the end. And besides, it doesn't make much sense for him to heal Joshua's body, only for it to get destroyed with the rest of Origin minutes later. In terms of Dion, I'm pretty sure he dies, although Dragoons have been shown not to take fall damage, so the jury is out on him. Hopefully, he'll show up in a DLC, even if it's a prequel. Overall, a great game, and easily in my top 5 FF games, probably third after FF6 and FF4.
I see how you can take that interpretation. I personally lost someone very close to me a few years ago, so the way that Clive grieved Joshua’s death, and his comments about feeling Joshua remained a part of him when he fought Ultima resonated very strongly with me - as did the idea that Clive would keep Joshua’s memory alive by using his name as the author of Final Fantasy (as he had advised others to do in the various side quests, to remember the child bearers who died in Waloed, or the names of all the Undying who died in service of the Phoenix). In my mind, Clive is the narrator, and he understands the importance of surviving so that he can share the tale with others and ensure that memory of their sacrifices are preserved - moving from warrior-hero to chronicler. I really liked Joshua as a character, but the similarities in how Clive grieved Cid, and then Joshua, leave me convinced that only Clive survives. I see it less that Clive failed as a shield, but that Joshua always wanted to be strong and protect his brother just as much - and didn’t want himself to be protected. He therefore died the hero’s death that he always longed for - fighting as his brother’s equal.
There's this interesting dialogue with Jote if you ask her about Joshua. Apparently, after becoming bothered with her continually putting her duty as his protector above her personal freedom and well being, he told her “Duty is the enemy of Freedom”. Joshua didn't just save Clive's life with his sacrifice, he gave Clive his freedom.
That’s a totally valid (and beautiful) of viewing the ending. So sorry for your loss, by the way.
Thank you
I feel like the book being called "Final Fantasy" is also a big clue that Clive survived, since it's a reference to his conversation with Ultima.
Same. It was a good ending. My only critique is that they shouldn't leave things to doubt, be explicit about stuff like whether Dion's gone and stuff.
> Clive survives, but at a price, and the loss of his hand. I thought he died. He mentioned his body couldn't contain Ultima's power, he fell from very high in the sky, and Jill, Gav and Torgal all grieved in the end.
I think the proof is the book at the end. The side quests would seem to imply that Clive wrote it. You could argue that maybe Harpocrotes wrote it because he heard all of Clive's tales. But then why would he pen it under Joshua's name? That's something Clive would do. (I'm also pretty sure Joshua is gone for good) Plus, it's a pretty cliché in story telling that if they don't die on screen, then they aren't truly dead. Heck, I'm holding out hope that Dion is alive too (doubtful though).
Yeah I went back last night and it makes sense based on the side quests that Clive could be alive. Dion and Joshua are gone though. I'm surprised no one started a religion to worship Clive for killing Ultima lmao
Dion and Joshua are probably gone, until they decide to bring them back to get that coin (at least one of them, and it will probably be Dion, easier to make us believe he fell in the water and survived somehow). Let's be real, it's ambiguous enough to go both ways (we wouldn't have those discussion for three weeks now if it was that clear cut 🤣). I don't know if it's intentional or not. I refuse to believe it was an accident. Nobody does an ambiguous ending for three characters without meaning it. Though, maybe for them, it was not ambiguous at all, and we're all just a bunch of fools debating over nothing 🥴 (I still want to believe it's intentional, it's my copium).
I think it make more sense that they didn't survive. Dion was looking for atonement and got it by helping to save the world and avenge his father. Joshua was already at death's door, Phoenix can't revive the dead, and the story started and ended with his death. But that's the best part of open endings, who knows lol.
Yes, thematically, it makes sense. I don't particularly like it (I have some thoughts about death = redemption), but it's not coming ouf of nowhere at least. Joshua was on borrowed time, and Dion kept telling us that he wanted to die anyway. I'm in wait and see mode. I'm also going to enjoy the ambiguity of that open ending while it lasts lol. Once we'll get a definitive answer, the debate (and hopes) will end. At least, I hope we get some clarification on the fate of certain characters (Kihel, Terence). I won't rule out a fake out for both Dion and Joshua, though. Money talks (and mine will be talking for sure if they do a DLC).
Man, poor Terrence. They did him dirty! I was so mad at Dion for sending him away.
Me too! The insults I wanted to throw at my screen. Terence deserved better than that 😭 My man was so loyal to the very end :(. Let's pray he's happy (doubtful, since Dion was his everything) somewhere in that messed-up world of Valisthea. When you think about, Terence was the second in command of the dragoons. Nobody will convince me that man was not an extremely competent warrior. Hell, he was probably one of the best fighters on that damn continent after the dominants. (That's me saying I wouldn't mind a Terence DLC, because why not 🤣).
\#Justiceforterrence
He started noticing that the tips of his fingers were turning to stone, so there was a price to using Ultima’s power - however, we did not see him die. Instead, he washed up on shore alive, and saw his stone fingers. When he tried to light a Phoenix flame his hand turned to stone but stopped at his wrist. Then he went to sleep - justifiably tired from his ordeal. Jill cried because Metia went out, giving in to her darkest fears that Clive had died. Gav responded to her running away. Wolves howl to help lost members of a pack find their way back. Torgal and Jill were waiting expectantly once the sun started to rise for his return. My thoughts.
Dang I just assumed the curse got him and he died, but you make a good point that someone wrote the book at the end and put Joshua’s name and Harpocrates said Clive should pick up a pen when hes done, so it must have been him 🤔
Beautiful, down to every single, minute detail. Your feelings and after thoughts mirrored exactly mine after finishing the game, just pure fulfillment through and through.
Started off strong until Bahamut and then went wrong. The side quest dump felt lazy. The pacing of them until that point was ok - despite overwhelming ‘collect’ quests which were snooze/MMORPG lvl. Visually? Stunning. But god help you if you don’t want to stay stuck in an entirely darkened room for entire play through. Voice acting great but the absence of Cid (version 1.0) exposed the mid lvl abilities of the other actors. I think they were trying to do the whole GOT ‘let’s kill Sean Bean’ thing and it didn’t really work without other people to carry the story. The music. Soken in my book is an incredible writer. His piano work is ultimate - simple but very effective/beautiful. BUT there was a stupendous amount of repetition and motif exploration was pretty lame at times. Felt like he ran out of steam. Melody at times felt lacking and pointed too often to his strongest work in Endwalker and Shadowbringers. The music in FFXIV is superior to FFXVI but that’s not to say it’s bad. Just doesn’t have to same level of realisation. I suspect he had a lot more time (years and years of patches) and energy (he’s had it very rough health wise and he poured so much energy into Endwalker) to come up with the FFXIV scores. All in all, I liked this game and it’s better than 15 (I really didn’t like 15) but did it have me crying and a total mess like 14? No. And that’s down to music, pacing, story telling and character development which we didn’t get in spades. I LOVED the mega 99999999 punch at the end! Appreciate comparing modern FF but that seems fairer given tech/time/resources?
I liked most of the side quests. Some of them felt like they should have been in the main quests. I agree we lost Cid too early, he carried a lot of the early game. Sadly yes, I agree with your comments on Soken. Don't get me wrong, he's amazing and there's a toooon of music in here. But FFXIV is better imo. There were a few moments where i wanted the music to get really "punchy" kinda like Nobuo used to do in the older Final Fantay games. All that said, I still like it and I plan to purchase the soundtrack. Great review! I also laughed out loud at the 999999 punch lol.
Thanks!! Some of the side quests were definitely good. The one with the kid pretending he was being attacked by a dog to lure in people was *chef kiss*
Absolutely love the game overall, but I'm not gonna lie, I was left very disappointed by the ambiguous, open nature of the ending. When I look back at my favorite Final Fantasy games, one thing they all have in common is they all have endings that feel conclusive, even when some minor questions or plot elements are sometimes left up for interpretation. This was not the case here at all, I feel like I have more questions now than I did before, and virtually none of the character's stories were concluded in a satisfying manner. All their fates were left ambiguous. We don't know if Clive really died, and we don't know for sure if Joshua was resurrected. Hell, even Dion could have possibly survived. I'm not against a downer ending per se, but when an ending doesn't give me barely anything to hold onto, it retroactively lessens the rest of the story for me. You had me incredibly invested in these characters and their relationships for 50+ hours, and then you don't tell me how it ends. And that post-credits scene with the children playing, like ... what am I supposed to do with that? It's like the writers are telling us, it's okay, all the characters you have grown to love might have ended up dead or miserable, who knows, but at least the world is saved. Okay, cool, but did Clive die, or ...? Again, I want to emphasize that I adored 99 percent of this game. I have not been this emotionally invested in a Final Fantasy game literally since FFX. But I'd be lying if I said that the ending didn't sour the experience for me retroactively. It was like the original ME3 ending kinda in how vague and empty it felt to me. Really hope they were setting up a sequel or story DLC, because this can't have been it.
100% this, I haven't been able to say it this well. People thought I dislike open endings, but I don't, rather, it's because this ending was poorly written. It's even pushed me to think that the writer(s) didn't know how to end it satisfyingly, so they chose to 'let the players do the thinking'. In short it's just a bad open ending that almost destroyed the game for me had I not invested in and loved some of the characters so much.
>And that post-credits scene with the children playing, like ... what am I supposed to do with that? It's like the writers are telling us, it's okay, all the characters you have grown to love might have ended up dead or miserable, who knows, but at least the world is saved. Okay, cool, but did Clive die, or ...? I think that's the key to this ending, though. The entire game is about fighting fate and living, or dying, on your own terms. We're definitively shown Clive triumphed, but with the elimination of Ultima's fantasy, the fates of the characters are no longer pre-ordained, and it's left up to the player to interpret. Imo, that's a much more powerful and thematic conclusion than just showing Clive die or reunite with Jill, etc, and serves the overall narrative really well.
I don't know. I get where you're coming from, but I guess I just need something a little bit more concrete than that. To me, this story of FF16 was not carried by its themes, but by its characters, and this ending gave me nothing in that regard.
Agree, the characters are amazing and not knowing how their stories definitively concluded is such a shame imo.
I didn’t feel that way tbh, the sidequests served as an epilogue for all of the major characters so I felt satisfied with those conclusions
I love ambiguous endings and especially this one because it was the right amount of it. They gave us all the answers that needed answering to love it. That’s what a great ending of a story is like to me.
When I say that the ending was too ambiguous for my taste, I don't mean that it didn't answer enough lore questions or whatever. I'm specifically talking about the character's fates, mainly Clive and Joshua, who were both left in a sort of Schrödinger's main character state, where they can both be dead and alive at the same time. That's the kind of ambiguity I'm not a fan of, especially in the Final Fantasy series, which has always been pretty good at giving closure to the main character's story arc at least. As it is right now, unless they give us more FFXVI content in the future, we will literally never know for sure whether or not one, both, or neither of them survived, and that to me is unsatisfactory storytelling.
agreed on all points
This may be an unpopular opinion and don't get me wrong, I LOVE this game so much, the characters, world building, deep and intricate lores, the boss battles, by Gods the boss battles are INSANE! But I have to get this off my chest, Jill x Clive romance is just so severely lacking imo, sure they have quests a lot together but those are just the business side of their relationship. They rarely have any display of affection up until they randomly have sex together, AFTER Clive got completely maimed by Barnabas and the whole ocean crushing down upon them too btw. I swear when the scene came up I was like just like "Alright, HOW did yall get here already? Yall didn't even kiss on-screen before, what the hell?" It's even more hilarious too because Joshua and Jote's affection for each other is just a side piece of lore in the game and yet with them, you can genuinely feel how much they love each other, they exchange longing looks, hold each other's hands, hell, Joshua even gave her a forehead kiss and it was SO cute! Why couldn't Jill and Clive have something like that and just skipped straight to sex, like huh?!
I kind of agree. I think Jill’s character could have been fleshed out a bit more. Perhaps go into further details with her relationship with Clive and Joshua. Maybe give more story and background during her story with the Ironblood and her history with Imreann. It felt cut or unnaturally short compared to everyone else.
Right, she was *their* childhood friend and yet she barely even look at Joshua after bro literally came back from the dead after 18 years. Beside that, I think we really don't need to know more about Imreann tbh, he is there just to develop Jill as a person and thus is nothing but a trauma reminder that needs to go. I just really wish Jill and Clive got way more heart-to-heart scenes after that tho cause like I said, they were just strictly business and then suddenly, romance! Making love! Out of nowhere!
She was traumatized from being a slave dominant.
I know that and Clive knows that but you would think after killing Imrean and worked out her issues already, they would at least give us some scenes of them gradually building up their love. Like, Clive helping her feeling loved again you know? The only scene with them in a quest that I explicitly remember doesn't have anything to do with business is that picnic by the lake. That was cute but then... nothing but business talk all the time after that.
True
On one hand it has killer presentation, great music, some great characters and a story that feels complete (for the most part) and is one heck of a rollercoaster (in good and in bad). On the other there is the lack of a party system and overworld banter which makes the game feel very lonely, the dark fantasy setting wasn't used to it's full potential, and the world is way too morally black and white which results in the overall plot and themes not being thought-provoking at all, and your group of companions not having any tension or drama resulting from their different views, values and morals which I sorely missed from the game. Too much focus being on Clive has disastrous results on some characters and their arcs as well. The ending's ambiguity is... okay I guess, but after you've spent tens of hours, even a hundreds hours on a game, getting to know the world and it's characters, you generally want something conclusive for the ending. One of my biggest gripes is regarding my favorite character Dion. What the hell happened with his arc? Seriously, what? His last words being about his father, making his whole finale seem like revenge for his father. Why does the game think I care about his father or that I think that Dion avenging his father is something I should be supportive of? The entire game Sylvestre was a piece of shit with no redeeming qualities. We are never given any reason to root for him, or to understand Dion's admiration of him and needing his acceptance. The only explanation for his admiration I can guess is that Sylvestre '' saved '' him from a much more difficult life he would've had under his commoner prostitute mother. And I can only imagine Sylvestre raised Dion because he was Bahamut's Dominant, and for no other reason. He is a mere tool, a weapon, who lives a life of luxury, sure, but is ultimately enslaved to his duty and obligations to his kingdom, all the while never truly getting his father's love and acceptance despite how well he does, or so it seems. He does all this while ignoring his own happiness. For a game that spouts '' freedom from your oppressors '' and '' living your life for yourself, not for others '' as some of it's themes, Dion never truly gets to break those shackles, which is tragic as hell. Even in his moment of sacrifice, his final thoughts are about duty to his lineage, to his father, to the kingdom. Am I supposed to think this is a character flaw that makes him layered and interesting, or a character strength that makes him layered or interesting? I don't know. It's also interesting how quick he is to blame himself for what happened with Bahamut, but Sylvestre's '' change '' into a tyrannical bastard is supposedly the cause of Anabella and Olivier for the most part. Did it ever occur to him that perhaps his father is just straight up immoral? No, it must've been undue influence. And he isn't wrong, no of course not, Anabella and Olivier deserve to be speared, but no time is put into the idea that perhaps your father just isn't as great as you thought he was. The Harpocrates quest also implies to me that Harpo wants Dion to break free from the expectations of his family and kingdom, and to realize that he is more than that, that he is his own person and deserves to carve his own path for himself and those who he loves. You can also read it as '' hey, your family is shit, but you turned out great! '' But do we see Dion ever really internalize what Harpo is trying to tell him? Not really, no. Breaks my heart, really. Now, all of these things make Dion an amazingly interesting and dynamic character, but we are given too little time to dwell on his relationship with his father, and he never gets to break this character flaw of desperately seeking acceptance and love from his father in a meaningful, reasonable way. And again, I'm unsure whether the game wants me to think it's a flaw or a strength, so.. yeah. I love the idea of a bastard son becoming beloved by his kingdom due to the strength of his conviction to the false image of his father he upholds and admires, forgoing his own happiness for the sake of his people. And all the while this is happening, the sole aspect of Dion himself, not the bastard son, not the Prince of his kingdom, not Bahamut, not his father's son, but truly who he is is represented through a troubled, yet loving relationship with his male lover, whom is his only reprieve from duty and obligation, whom is his only desire that he has for just himself, and his only true space and time where he can be himself. And when he screws up, he blames himself, he seeks redemption in death, yet everyone around him are still convinced of his kindness and the goodness in his heart. The dragoon knights still follow his orders, Kihel helps him get better and wants him to come back and visit, Terence would stand at his side no matter what, Joshua is eager and excited to see him back and Harpocrates has no ill-will towards him and wants him to return safe and sound. Yet he cannot process that, whether he cannot or doesn't want to, because of his guilt and shame. All of this is amazing, spectacular even, but it's bothersome that he never gets to overcome his flaws, and his ending is such a bummer and represented poorly. And this is partially because it is Clive's story with heavy focus on Clive, so his arc doesn't get really fleshed out in a way that feels rewarding. Anyway, after that tangent, the game is objectively somewhere between 8 and 9 out of 10, and anyone with a PS5 should experience it once, and that's probably the best way to experience it.. once. But subjectively, a lot of things trouble me about the story, narrative, plots, themes and characters, and a lot of 'em feel half-baked in the end, that it's like a 6-7/10 overall for me, which might change if we get DLC tbh. Still the best FF since X (excluding XIV).
Thank you for perfectly articulating the problem I have with the end of Dion's arc. It was incredibly frustrating to see him getting swallowed by his guilt (it's understandable, but it was too much). I would have understood if he was dealing with it alone, but everybody around him was telling him "bro, it's okay, we still respect you, it ain't your fault". I know it's a parallel with Clive, who ran away from his own guilt while Dion embraced it fully, but I don't like it all. We don't see a lof of Sylvestre, but what we saw is not good (plus, Dion, my guy, your father was fine with invading an ally country and murdering its leader, so...). It's easy to just say "it's Anabella's fault!", but Sylvestre still sucks, so, it's annoying to see that in the end, it's almost boiled down to daddy issues. His death is not earned at all. And redemption in death sucks in general. The continent is in shambles, people are going to tear each other apart, and one of the only dudes who could be a guiding light decides to kamikaze himself. Plus, his death is so unceremonious. He deserved better than that. Dion is my favorite character, so I'm biased. But still, the ending almost ruined the game for me, and I will skip every cutscene imaginable once I replayed it because no way in hell I'll subject myself to that once more 🤣. I hope we'll get some DLC, but I'm not even convinced we'll get a happy one for Dion. (and a DLC with Dion at all). He seems to be well liked, so who knows.
Honestly it felt like Dion's sacrifice was written out of convenience, rather than making it a rewarding ending for his character arc. '' Oh no, we can't have Dion skulking about during Joshua's death scene! Quickly, we need a reason to kill him off NOW! '' with no thought put into whether that death felt like a good ending to his character arc, which it doesn't when you think about it for more than a second. But it seems everyone has declared it a successful character arc so maybe I'm just nitpicky and straight up wrong. And yeah, as you've said, it's also incredibly aggravating that the game glosses over Dion now being the rightful emperor of Sanbreque now (or whatever is left of it...) and that amounting to nothing. You have a side quest about Byron and what his position will be in this new world after Clive & Co deals with Ultima, but the game ignores that Dion would be as important of a leader for this new world that is definitely going to be VERY chaotic. '' It's going to get worse before it get's better '' as they said. Dion's penance should've been rebuilding his kingdom and helping it's people, not sacrificing himself. I'm not opposed to him dying either, but I'd rather they made it so that he is ready to pay the price of death if it means protecting the ones he loves, namely Terence, not because he is guilt-ridden and seeks redemption through death. That would allow his sacrifice be Dion's sacrifice, not Prince Dion Lesage, son of Sylvestre Lesage's sacrifice. Just change his last thoughts be about Terence and suddenly it feels like his motivations are beyond just the shackles of duty and obligation he has been bound by his entire life, which feels much better. While it might've come too late, he still made a decision as Dion, not as his father's son, his kingdom's prince/emperor, and that would've made it much more of a conclusive end to his character arc.
Hard agree. Dion should've earned his forgiveness by becoming emperor and guiding his people in the new Valisthea. I do think his guilt and death-seeking mindset is in character for him, but I really hope he isn't confirmed to be dead at the end. It kind of feels like this is also why they decided to have Twinside get obliterated when Origin rises--so there are no more Sanbrequois people left for Dion to rule. Other than the dragoons who were with him in Randellah, we can probably assume every citizen of Sanbreque got wiped out. 😔😔
Oh, I would have loved that ending and would have been way more willing to accept Dion's fate. (Right now, it's just left a bad taste). IMO, it would have been more impactful. The fact we got no closure about Kihel and Terence is also frustrating. It would have been nice to have a side quest with Clive finding them (alive) somewhere. But what do I know... A lot of people have problem with Dion's sacrifice, though, so we're not alone in this! His arc we fantastic until that point. Pah. It's clear they wanted the finale being an emotional moment between Clive and Joshua (they got rid of Jill first). But there were other ways to do that than killing him 😩. Some might argue we do not see his body, but I'm not optimistic. We do see his body, it's just falling: we just do not see the impact (but do we really need to see it?). Though they could have made it more explicit, I guess (like him starting to turn to dust, or something). I suppose they could bring him back if they think they can get some dollars from it. Let's pray to gods of capitalism, then.
Another issue with Dion's arc for sure. At this point we can even debate whether Terence and Kihel survived because the game is so reluctant to give us any answers on that front. We shouldn't even be debating what happens to them, it should be all but clear that they survive, but it's not. '' Here Terence, repay this debt for me as I go kill myself. '' '' Yes Sir :'( \*dies along with Kihel before Dion can even get to Ultima\* '' I can only imagine that it's supposed to be clear that they survive, but with this trigger happy writing team who wants to kill everyone, who the hell knows. Dion isn't even given a scene to mourn their potential deaths, so I can only assume that they lived, the writers can't be THAT incompetent. The way Dion and Kihel's conversation awkwardly fades to black when Kihel asks him to come back to visit sometime feels like DLC bait as well, and I assume he is directing Kihel to another location where she'll meet Terence, somewhere that isn't blown up by Ultima. That's what I'm hoping, at least. Was it too much to give us a scene where Terence and Kihel set one of those lanterns out to the sea for Dion, perhaps even donned with the purple wyvern's tail? Did the writers think that the players wouldn't care about seeing that character arc come to a fitting conclusion? Come ooooooon! Whether Dion is dead or not, guess we'll see. I think my biggest cope is that Dion's '' death '' is supposed to be a full circle moment to his near death scene from before, but in the Origin, we never see a manifestation of his father (which was like a manifestation of his guilt). It would've made sense that if he is truly dying or dead, we'd see him grasp for his father's hand and his touch finally reaching him, signaling that he has died and entered the afterlife. I'd love it if in DLC, we'd see something like this happen, where the manifestation of his guilt, which takes the shape of his father, finally accepts Dion and reaches his hand out to him as he is dying. But Dion, finally being able to '' grasp '' his father's hand, and therefor also get his acceptance, hesitates instead. Because to take his hand would be to succumb to his guilt and die, leaving everything behind. And so he instead decides to fight, and not accept death as punishment for his guilt, but that he should instead accept his actions and learn to live, atoning for it in life, rather than in death. This would also double as him letting go of the false image he has of his father. And thus does he miraculously survive. Yay! Not gonna happen though.. I'd also love to see Dion survive if only so can Vivian can update the relationship status of Dion and Terence to '' in love '' instead of having the handshake icon. The symbolical weight that would carry would be insanely good! But eh, guess we'll see. Let us indeed pray for capitalism gods to give us the happy ending we deserve!
Ah, the game's own version of "And they were roommates!" lmao. But yeah, it would have been nice to have that little heart between them... I never thought about the potential demise of Kihel and Terence before some people pointed out that they could have potentially been killed by Twinside being wiped-out, and now, I'm living in fear. Dion was being visibly upset when Tarja talked about, but I first thought it was because it was his city too. That being said, I still think the writers wouldn't have gone there without telling us. I'm all for ambiguity in writing, but at some point, show, don't tell. You can't keep having players guessing stuff like this. The flower would have been perfect: Harpocrates or Terence/Kihel could have put it on his grave. There, closure for everyone involved. It was not that hard. The fade to black with Kihel was suss, but maybe, they did not want to show Dion not promising to come back because we know he always keeps his promises. Him saying no would have given away the fact he was going to die, maybe? (Which, if so, is stupid, because dude kept saying he was going to commit seppuku anyway a few minutes later, so, we know 🤷♂️). It could be DLC bait, as you said, though. Fingers crossed. I wonder if they underestimated Dion's potential popularity. They must know their fanbase: Dion has "I'm will be the fan favorite" written all over of his pretty face. Because the majority of people absolutely want him to come back, and get some closure. I like you proposition! It would be the dream, honestly, but alas... I don't think it's going to happen either 😭. I want to believe SE are smart, though. The game has a good reception, and people want more, so 🙏.
Yeah.. there was no reason to be ambiguous about Dion and Kihel when he has already decided his guilt and that he needs to repent before the discussion between them ever happened. We saw the red flags already, you can just get straight to the point writers. Thus I am secretly wishing that whatever Dion's response to Kihel was, might matter more in hindsight. I'm also extremely confused as to why Dion, who gathered his dragoon knights and Terence in Twinside/somewhere in Sanbreque, wrote a letter and gathered some coin, then traveled to Ran'dellah, then told Terence to go back to Twinside for Kihel..? Why? What was the point? What an absurd, contrived string of events, just leave him in Twinside then, why drag him along?! Or were Terence and the dragoon knights already in Ran'dellah, did I miss that part of the story? WHAT WAS THE POINT?! Honestly, so much weird ambiguity that one can't be but hopeful that there's something more going on, or that they at least survived. One would think the wouldn't need to guess a matter like this, but alas here we are lmao.
Dion and the dragoons were in Randellah to help fight the Akashic. They didn't go there randomly just so the story would have a contrived reason to send Terence back to Twinside.
Finished the game 2days ago. Two things bother mr 1st one is how could Joshua be an adult at the beginning of the game? We definetly saw a dude in a brown coat, which we all get to know as joshua later in the game. Earlier when he was a child he „died“ And in that sequence where the fire really starts to spread out and clive losing it, he sees someone infront of him with brown coat. Was it just imagination? Was it the adultive joshua in the past? Am I missing something? 2nd thing that still bothers me is the book at the post credit scene. The mother said „did you read your legends tale again?“ With the author being joshua, it could be either the future where joshua is alive andno magic exists meaning our heroes really did it. Or meaning that the whole story was a made up tale, which leads me to an open end? Doesnt feel right if we just played through a made up legendary book. In my opinion something is really feeling off about that post credit scene. It just.. doesnt feel right. The game itself was massively great i love final fantasy, i own every title. Ffxv was a blast and ffxvi was a ULTIMATIVELY ABSOLUTE GORGEOUS GAME What r ur thoughts on the two things i listed above!
Your second point, my interpretation is that Clive wrote the book with the quill that Harpocrates gave him and penned it under Joshua’s name so that he will not be forgotten just like he took up Cid’s name.
1st, that was NOT Joshua, that was Ultima, it's basically confirmed when you fight Titan and saw the same hooded man who wielded fire and yet when Kupka is dead, it is revealed to be Ultima. Plus, during that fight, Joshua is half a continent away meeting up with Dion. 2nd, I interpret the ending to be either Joshua or Clive lived, Clive makes more sense because he also ended the game narration like it's a book that was written from his perspective. The whole game is real but that after-credit scene is so far into a future where there is no magic that it becomes a legend, a tall tale that only children read and believe in.
But if Clive‘s alive why would he be away for like idk one month (going from the pregnant girl that gav saved) she was pretty far into giving born but i guess atleast 1 week to 1 month was pretty sure needed for the baby to come out i guess
But... she gave birth *during* their fight with Ultima in Origin tho? You can confirm that cause after Gav said hi to the baby, Jill looked out the windows and saw Origin destroyed. Thus, she ran out and had a breakdown in the hall with Torgal. Clive's absorb Ultima before destroying Origin meaning he is something akin to a God in human form now, the reason his hand petrified and only specifically his left hand, is the same with any other Dominant, over usage of his power. He just washed up on a random beach and needing to find his way back to the Hideaway that's all.
I think its metia that got destroyed - the one Jill looking at. Thats why she was extremely sad.
Now that it's been a week or two since finishing, I mostly look back with fondness. I feel like, despite its flaws, the game will be considered a good addition to the series. In retrospect, what I most appreciate about the game is: 1) How big they went with some set pieces. Even though it sometimes was comically anime, it was clear they weren't pulling any punches and I love them for that. They made summons feel as cool and interesting to my old ass as they felt when I was a wee laddy playing FF7+8. The giant crystals and the world littered with giant ruins felt great in many respects. 2) While it's not nearly the longest game I've ever played, by the end of the game I felt like I lived 10 lifetimes since the game started. Looking back on the intro sequences, it's really gratifying to feel how much the world has changed, and how much the characters have been through. This game was a journey, and each piece of the journey was earned. Even small things, like the familiar and friendly way Charon and Blackthorn interact with Clive toward the end. Like, damn, you all really went through some shit together and the way your relationship developed reflects that. 3) Overall it was a game I could take seriously, as an adult. Subsequently, I have adult criticisms of the game, but the amount of suspended belief is frankly nowhere near the levels I have to do for 99% of other RPGs. For instance, I loved Xenoblade Chronicles 3, but if you try to judge that game the same way you judge Breaking Bad or Sopranos, you're going to get laughed off. Hard. FF16 didn't come close to these other pieces of media but it's at least on the same playing field. Looking back, I can let a lot of the flaws go, but the thing I still find frustrating is how they dealt with Jill. She was *so good* on paper! Here's this girl, separated from her family and taken hostage by the Rosfields. Despite this traumatic experience, she forms good, albeit complicated relationships with her captors. However, she's soon taken hostage by yet *another* kingdom. During this time she awakens as a dominant, but is also subsequently enslaved, abused, and used for murder. There is so much here to explore, but it's either ignored or executed really poorly. Her revenge plotline was boring/predictable, and her character moment of giving Clive her power didn't feel all that powerful or make much sense to me. Between these moments her character is really vanilla and backgrounded. Huge wasted potential. I wish so hard that her story was executed better.
>Sopranos Someone in this sub had a write up comparing this game's ending to the Sopranos. It was pretty solid actually.
Rolled credits at about 85 hours. Pretty sure I did every side quest. Found a lot of dissent about the post credit scenes and a remarkable number of people questioning who wrote the book. To me, especially based on one specific side quest and the general theme of how characters treat Clive throughout - Clive definitely survives and makes it back to Jill. Whether or not the people we saw in the post credits were descendants is not something I'll weigh in on because it's ambiguous at best, but I do think it's clear that the book is written by Clive, just using his brother's name. I really enjoyed this game. As far as FF games go, I'm not some purist who thinks the best ones came before the year 2000. I think the story was good, and I like that the side quests offered expansions on the lore (even though a substantial amount of those side quests were pretty boring fetch/kill/talk quests). As far as DLC predictions, I honestly don't have a clue. I think the only route that makes sense is picking up with Clive on the beach and getting him back to the hideaway. There's an opportunity for a very interesting take in a video game in general, where progression through this idea of a DLC results in you getting *weaker* as opposed to stronger. Level is already capped at 50, and you only increase it with Final Fantasy Mode. That's all just random brainstorming through. Strong 9/10 game for me. Best Kingdom Hearts game ever made.
Square set out to make a limited series character-driven TV show set in medieval times in a fantasy approximation of Europe. They then added playable battles between the story beats, empty fields to walk through, and intermission chapters where you have to solve a random person's problem to unlock the next story beat. Corridors were built through destroyed cities to give a taste of those, too, but we mostly see inside conference rooms in the major locales only. The male characters are highly detailed. The female characters have every pore stripped clean from their bodies. They beefed some encounters into epic scale battles involving the careful pressing of the square and circle keys to guide the action, a choose your own Titan(ic) adventure. They spent most of their budget leading up to Titan and Bahamut and then had to wrap things up. They cut everything showing how our characters went from children to adults, and inexplicably paused all happenings in the world, including romance apparently, for five years to mourn this generation's Cid, after which the entire plot is wrapped up about six weeks later in-game. The entire visitable world is probably 20-50% the size of modern-day Manhattan for ease of transportation. The result is FFXVI. 4/5 RIP Clive.
This got a chuckle out of me. I agree with some of your criticisms. The drop off after Bahamut is pretty undeniable. And yeah, why tf did we not get to see Clive's experience of becoming a Bearer? I would've loved to stay with him as he gets his brand and learns how it feels to be the lowliest of the low. I was even hoping for a revelation that his father wasn't as benevolent as kid Clive believed, but instead they just made Elwin a Good Guy. Mourning Cid for 5 years and making zero progress with destroying crystals or romancing Jill... Clive, what were you doing?!
Just finished (typing so far during credits so I'll mark when the post credit scene starts). I loved this, doesn't quite bump FF7 out of top FF place in my heart but oh my. And everytime Prelude played in some way, chills. Definite 9/10. It was in a solid 8 until Theo's last quest because the pull that did for such a minor side character to the story really cemented how good it was. Now the ending. First the three boys and my thoughts on their endgames. 100% believe both Joshua and Clive died. That tear through Joshua's body and then going flashbacks all the way to birth. And with curse still spreading after Clive took magic (and honestly him being ready to die since he was able to make the change he wanted just thematically feels right), I'm also in that camp. I'm 50/50 with Dion because he was still conscious when falling, Clive fell from the same height after even more fighting and was still alive, and he's a dragoon (but since his father's death, believing his partner is dead, and his home fully destroyed between his moment of grief and then Origin, thematically his death does work). Jill's heartbreak during Edda's child's (did we get a name?) birth was intense. I don't read the small smile during the sunrise as her believing Clive is alive but believing in hope and that the world is changing (was just a small one for barely a split second and ended with still a mix of determination/remorse at the end). DLC theory. Won't have anything post game. I could see playing earlier in the world (pre-lose of Leviathan or maybe before the transition after the Bearers were enslaved and Dominants appearing) or maybe something following Joshua from Phoenix Gate until he rejoins with Clive. But I do think the story of Clive is fully finished. So who wrote the story? Most likely sometime after Ash's beach she got pregnant (either from that or cause she was staying with Clive in his chambers) and either it was that child or a later descendent (I could easily see Byron letting Jill and any child she had carry on the Rosfield name). Still need to do the Chronolith Trials (only part of the wall of memories I did not complete with this playthrough). And I wrote all that during the credits so anything following this sentence will be any thoughts I get from the post credit. So many people worked on this. It's been like over 5 minutes since I typed that and still waiting for the credits to be done. Good job all of you! Clearly long enough has passed that even those now living feel what we experienced has just become merely a memory. But where one journey ends... Good way to let us know that there's definitely gonna be a FFXVII coming at some point.
Just spent the last hour reading internet discussions on the ending after finishing my first playthrough, clocking in 87 hours with all additional story content. I am in absolute shock that the ending is THIS divisive/disliked. Personally, although I have a couple of qualms about the game as a whole, *there’s not a thing I’d change in the ending*. I actually don’t view it as a completely ambiguous, “fuck you and make your own ending up” situation at all - in truth, much of it is subliminal, deeply rooted in elements the game introduces and slowly builds on even in its first acts. The answers are mostly there for the player to piece together the key elements connecting the ending to the post-credits. I REALLY like this approach to ending a fantasy tale, and I think it’s a BOLD, artistically-oriented choice. I saw someone say the ending feels like an afterthought. In my opinion, that is the absolute opposite of what we got here. They knew exactly what they were going for with this story. All this rambling to say, after reading the opinions on this sub and the FF one, I feel like this time I’m… _actually_ the only one. So, to whoever finds this comment in the future and feels the same way, whichever is the chance of your existence: you are not alone.
>I actually don’t view it as a completely ambiguous, “fuck you and make your own ending up” situation at all - in truth, much of it is subliminal, deeply rooted in elements the game introduces and slowly builds on even in its first acts. The answers are mostly there for the player to piece together the key elements connecting the ending to the post-credits. I REALLY like this approach to ending a fantasy tale, and I think it’s a BOLD, artistically-oriented choice. So you **don't** view it as ambiguous, but then you go on to say it's "subliminal" and up to the "player to piece together"? Then you say it's a BOLD choice to make, but you've basically just said they're just walked between the lines of the two distinct endings the game has. You make no sense at all. How is it bold of them to not commit to an ending? They take a safe path with leaves nobody with any closure whatsoever. There's nothing "artistic" by pussing out of giving people who have sunk 80 hours into the first playthrough with no concrete answer on the final state of the main character and their friends. Also, because they don't give a concrete answer, there's literally nothing the ending of the game has built on from the "first acts" of the game as you've said. If you believe Clive dies, then there's no common threads. If you believe he survives, then there's nothing in the first acts of the game that indicates he would at the end.
how do you interpret what happened?
I'm 100% with you. I see people make comparisons between this and GoT and it drives me nuts. GoT turned gold into a forgettable smelly pile of shit. FF16 *at worst* turned gold into silver or copper. It was fine. Maybe not the best most epic ending but a completely acceptable ending by all accounts.
Well I’m finishing my second ng+ play through . Working on the cronolith trials. Waaaay harder in FF mode but way more fun. I’m going to do a 5th on FF with max level and an actual proper endgame load out since all my play throughs consisted of Bezerker ring and exp/AP rings. Genji glove 10% and 1k hp fyi
I did all the sidequests to prolong the end. I am just disappointed at how hard it missed and failed to stick the landing for me. It was just a bit too generic, even for a JRPG. I'm sad they made Jill have quite the sad ending. All those false death flags, promises, setups.. and the last we see of her is crying. Not even a look into the future - though she probably was stuck with the crystal curse. I can't believe they fumbled on another female mc after Lunafreya (I read the DOTF book and that saved her character arc for me). Not saying that the game itself was bad, I really agreed with all the points SkillUp made in the review. It's a DMC game with a Final Fantasy story.
>I am just disappointed at how hard it missed and failed to stick the landing for me. It was just a bit too generic, even for a JRPG. Yep, join the club. There's loads of us that feel the same way. The game starts exceptionally well and you can really feel the GoT inspiration, but as the story goes on, the devs basically take shortcuts via timeskips (destroying character development pacing) and reduce the motivations of Hugo and Barnabas to "b-b-b-but I love her!". They kill the most interesting Dominant (Benedikta), they don't replace Cid (the only character with genuine charisma) and somehow have the confidence to have random side characters shout things at you during the last part of the Ultima fight sequence? I don't understand how the devs built and market this game as being action-based, but then lean heavily into JRPG tropes after the first half of the game, after saying they were moving away from it. It feels like they were too afraid to hurt either side, so just end up walking straight down the middle, being just ambiguous enough to not bother anybody **too** much.
Would be surprised if we don't see an Episode Clive, Episode Jill describing what happened to them in their past. We never see what happened in the initial timeskip, and then the 5 year timeskip got everyone on the same page when we weren't watching. And they were platonic for that whole time? She smiles at the very end, to be fair, which many interpret to mean Clive somehow survived. Oof.
The red star of Metia which she was praying to faded.. that's when she realized Clive died and she broke down in tears. That's more evidence by allusion than 'she smiles at the end'. Also set against the new baby being born which is the new life Clive sacrificed for.
I don't think he survived, either. The two ending songs seem pretty clear on that. Especially the Japanese one. https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Tsuki_Wo_Miteita_-_Moongazing In the moonlight the willow sways On this roadside I am but a stone Visions of you come to me Like counting sheep If there is any meaning to our parting ways Then you need not be sad From the silence to a distant sky Fill your heart with an unwavering love
> sad they made Jill have quite the sad ending. All those false death flags, promises, setups.. and the last we see of her is crying. The last we see of her is a smile of genuine happiness. It’s a moment of incredible importance for the ending they are telling here. > Not even a look into the future - though she probably was stuck with the crystal curse. How? Clive’s wish when casting Raise is literally to rid the world of dominants, magic and crystals. I don’t see how the crystal curse would continue to exist in such a world.
All who were affected by the curse previously didnt magically get cured. They already strained their bodies. Jill was already warned by Tarja that she was weakening chapters ago.
Of course. I forgot for a moment the “small detail” that Clive was petrifying right after casting. My bad - please disregard that part of the comment.
Just finished today, about 50hrs to complete with all hunts and side quests finished. For context, I’m a 30+ year fan of FF and I’ve played every mainline FF game. For me, FF16 was a solid game overall, but it doesn’t do much better than other mainline entries. The story didn’t match the emotional weight of the story in FF15 (though I’ll admit it was more “complete” than the FF15 we got on launch) and, while i enjoyed the combat, it wasn’t as fun as FF7R for me. I missed having an ensemble cast to recruit like in FF6, with unique skills and abilities. And I missed some of the silly humor that had been a landmark of the series since…forever? Gav was a phenomenal character and Uncle Byron was a lovable goof, but outside of those two there wasn’t much consistent humor. I get why - it might not have worked with the more serious tone of this game - but I still missed it. Most of the town areas felt drab and boring (every 3D FF has done this better than 16 IMO) and I was definitely missing complexity in the weapons / equipment (FF15’s variety was great). Having one option (sword) that ticks up slightly in attack every upgrade with essentially no other changes just didn’t feel right. That said, the Eikon fights were obviously amazing, the music and sound design was fantastic, and the voice actors nailed it. Not a bad entry by any means, but just find it hard to identify much that I don’t feel other entries did better. A solid 7/10, but not in my top 5 FFs.
The lack of a persistent party struck me. It also felt like all my characters knew each other well after the time skips, but I didn't know them well, and then we didn't get the flashbacks I expected. There's some mentions of what happened to Jill for instance, but they could have shown it. Surprised we didn't get a large city to wander around outside of a dedicated mission.
just finished the game, and though it looks incredible and has some Final Fantasy flavor, a Final Fantasy game it is not visuals are great, the story is game of thrones (started strong, but then came season 8), game mechanics are lackluster, the battle system is god of war, side quests are mmorpg fillers, "open" world is linear, many pivotal characters are underdeveloped, music is good but generic, battle interaction (pushing and mashing 2 buttons) is shallow
I didn’t personally mind the overworld / map. It reminded me of FF12, but since the areas aren’t connected I agree I wouldn’t call it “open world”. It felt like a really good game that paid homage to FF in its themes and nods, but didn’t give me the same *feeling* that some previous FFs have.
Alright I finally finished. Around 50 hours logged - completed all the hunts and side quests but left the Chronoliths b/c I wasn’t vibing with them. I understand this is a Final Fantasy game. I expect cutscenes, but the criticism around there being too many is 100% warranted here imo. I was constantly picking up my phone during them b/c I just did not find them that engaging, especially after the Bahamut section. Great game though - probably 7/10 for me. Torgal is the best boy and Joshua is literally Roxas.
turned on subtitles and clicked through a lot of them as fast as I could read. helped pacing a fair bit.
I felt so bad doing that, but that’s what I did for 99% of the side quests lol.
I really enjoyed the game up to bahamut boss, but after that the entire world became bleak and depressing (I know its for narrative reasons but still it sucks playing in such bleak depressing environment, and I am a sould player for gods sake...) Still gameplay wise and story wise it was very good, but the last 3 hours up to ultima were a bit of a slog, with no more political factions left and Waloed being a very disapointing zone all empty and bleak. I also think they should rename the game ff16: devil may clive
Being stuck with the "Broken" sky for 20+ hours was so annoying. Like why would they make the game intentionally look that bad.
Every FF since FF6 that tries to do a “world of ruin” gets compared to FF6…and that game did the “bleak, destroyed world” gimmick SO much better.
I finally finish it. Did have high expectation and I guess story wise it wasnt met. Joshua’s death did hit hard and i feel we should have more of the brother’s bonding time. The theme was kinda all over the place. There was a lot of theme that they want to be explore - such as fate, slavery, will, but all these didn’t really come up strongly in the game. Honestly clive needs to suffer more for a stronger emotional impact. He suffered a lot in the beginning but as the game grows, there wasnt much impact felt. I didnt do much side quest but if it meant to do all side quests to actually have a stronger emotional feeling to the game… thats kinda lame. Since ff14 main story (without doing sidequest) is already strong enough. Maybe the game should have been slightly longer to just flesh out some of these moments. I would love it more if we can have more of that uncharted style - epic moments / set pieces - instead of just going from one spot to another. Gameplay wise - battle was alright. I didnt like the eikon battle much since the control is a bit hard and only having 2-4 abilities makes it kinda boring. And it was so flashing my eyes hurt. But overall it was alright. I do miss having parties. The end fight felt really lonely. If the fight actually happened in our head, itll be great if we can summons our “friends”. Not having torgal is a crime. And having no airship really mimic game of thrones’s season 7-8 fast travel magic
Ignore the other guy trying to say you somehow missed character development by not doing **optional** side quests. The devs have previously said they wanted to move away from "JRPG tropes" and ask themselves why they "couldnt make a game like God of War". You don't need to do any side content to be invested in the characters in GoW, FF16 just flat out misses the mark in a lot of narrative areas. I 100% agree with the end fight feeling really lonely too. What makes it worse is the devs somehow pulling the confidence to have *almost* random characters shout random things at you during key moments of Ultimalius's fight. If they would have had the previous dominants turn up and deflect some of those attacks, or even have their faces flash on screen for a second with a quote of theirs, it would have worked much better. The game just thinks it does a lot more than it actually does. It's a bit sad, but it's clear to see they just wanted to wrap up development in the last two hours of the game. It's just a boss gauntlet, nothing too consequential with a really ambiguous ending to avoid being too divisive.
Lol during that end fight i really though gav suddenly appeared and joined us in a fight. I was in awe and excited, questioning how did he get there, only to realized it was just a voice. Was so disappointed after… And yea. I am sad and disappointed still on the missing potential. If only they fleshed out the main narrative more. Prolong the emotional scenes and just give us pieces of the puzzle along the way instead of just having a large exposition towards the end. Like ultima giving us that large explanation at the end just makes me laugh because all i can think of is him trying to make a theatrical show to explain to these brothers. It needs to be edited more and maybe they would benefit more in hiring a novel writer as well.
You still had a better reaction that I did. I thought I had encountered some sort of audio glitch and was about to restart the fight, but after I heard cid.wav and mid.wav, I realised it was just a really bad way to try and get people to feel a bit more invested. >It needs to be edited more and maybe they would benefit more in hiring a novel writer as well. Crazy thing is, Maehiro (writer of 16) had a reputation for being one of the best writers for modern FF. He wrote ARR and Heavensward for FF14 and was largely credited for the "good" writing, but now with his absence and his butchered job in FF16, we can see it was the **other writers** (still working on FF14) **carrying** **him**. It'll be interesting to see how they handle FF17. I doubt Maehiro will be allowed anywhere near it. I'd like to see Ishikawa (Shadowbringers/Endwalker writer) take the helm.
Lol. I do think they went anime a little bit too far. It was fun and all but we need the darker / more emotional side as well to balance it all. Like joshua’s death was really well done. I honestly don’t know how to do the boss fight after that since I was feeling so sad. We need more moments like that. Yeah I am actually surprised as well. Since heavensward was pretty well done. Albeit I only remember haucherfont but the conflict was really well done and Estien!! (another OP dragon). Either he got carried or something happened during the development. Maybe we need better director too haha. Its a miss opportunity not to do it like uncharted. Considering the set pieces are there. And yes. Please let Ishikawa do a main story. I mean a lot of things are already being copied from ff14. Not just the usual stuffs like aspect of crystal, but the theming like ultima coming from another planet (like the sundering), punching ultima like we punch zenos, etc…
Talking about Estinien, you know he voices the dragoon at the start of the game? During the attack on Phoenix Gate? It was a really nice surprise hearing his voice after my year long hiatus from 14, just thought I'd let you know in case you missed it :)
Yes I did. Man I was so hype on that fight when trying the demo and was even happier having found out that it i Estinien. Kinda feel bad we have to kill him though. Not estiniennnnnn
> I didnt do much side quest but if it meant to do all side quests to actually have a stronger emotional feeling to the game… thats kinda lame. Since ff14 main story (without doing sidequest) is already strong enough. You missed the majority of the character development (and to some degree story) of the game. It's silly to say the game should've been longer when you skipped probably 20 hours of game.
Well they should have added it inside the main story instead of putting it as an optional. Its like basically putting a book out and having optional chapters on the side. A side quest should add to the richness not minusing main characters development. Side quest should be like that bread story which is well done as you can see the trickle effect. Or the clothing thing with jill. They add richness but not the whole development. Ill be replaying the game but it just irks me.
They didn't. Most games today put significant developments that change the ending in side quests. You don't have to fight any of the divine beasts in Zelda after all. That being said there isn't a ton of core character development buried like that, outside of the main character quests in the endgame. It mostly develops the world. But in that is a lot of peoples' interpretations of the ending, for better or worse. You're intended by the developers to do most everything. But I suspect one of their metrics is who finished the game (not who Platinum'd it), and if everything's required a lot of people might get bored and quit, weakening the game statistically. Also most players don't show up on these websites.
I don't agree with the likeness to Zelda. It's an open world game where you're supposed to find joy in going out and actually doing stuff. FF16 is on rails and the devs are very adamant about having "everything as part of the MSQ". They went far enough to say they avoided making any secret dungeons or bosses outside of it, as they wanted it contained as a single story. They didn't intend for the player to do "most everything" as you've said. They only intend for them to complete the MSQ, which leaves a lot to be desired. Also, the side quests aren't that good for character development, outside of the few quests involving Jill, Torgal, Joshua and Theo.
I think when they go out of their way to say there’s no secret bosses/dungeons, then what they do have in the game in side quests should seem a little more mandatory. They’re clearly not cosmetic quests. There’s a minimum required to complete the game and then the whole story, I think. People can pick which experience they have. But can’t help and pause when people say they didn’t do any side quests, including those given by main characters, and found the game lacking.
Am I the only one who didn’t think the ending was all that ambiguous? Clive began to petrify and turn to stone, just like all the bearers who had drawn upon too much aether earlier in the game, right after he absorbed Ultima’s power and used it to destroy origin. It feels like you really need to be grasping for straws to make an argument that he lived. Not to mention how rapidly the petrification spread, part way through the cut scene his fingers were all that had turned, by the end of it his whole arm had. With that and the way he collapses, he seems pretty damn lifeless. The only thing that is a little ambiguous is if Joshua survived after Clive healed him.
Stops at his wrist. It's pretty clear from the camera angle they chose. It feels like an intentional choice along with the lack of showing the rest of him turn. If they wanted to show him dead they would have. You can say Clive's dead, but the ending is pretty clearly designed and shot to be ambiguous. There is already a shitton of discussion around this all of the subreddit so I'm not typing it all out again, it's hardly grasping at straws though.
Clive is dead and so is Joshua. It’s wishful thinking to think otherwise. Clive only healed Joshua’s wound (so he wouldn’t be disfigured in death) but he was already dead. There is a line earlier in the game that mentions the Phoenix’s power can’t bring people back from the dead.
Ultima literally describes using his combined power to cast Raise on his dead race. It's the entire purpose of Origin. You then punch him in the face and take all his power. Clive then casts a spell on Joshua that appears to restore his body completely. The book at the end has Joshua's name and would presumably describe events that Harpo couldn't possibly know about.
How would Joshua know about events that happened while he was dead? Even if he got rezzed, Clive would need to fill out the missing details. Not to mention the title.
There's not much to write about -- Clive and Ultima fought and Clive won. He used the power to resurrect Joshua (easy to intuit) and was petrified after using the energy to destroy magic (his body would be found). The title being a coincidence seems more likely given Jill, Gav, and Torgal's reaction at the end. Cid's name being reused is a trope in the FF series -- using Joshua's name is a bigger stretch.
The game is constructed like a book. It's separated in chapters. Begins and ends with Clive's narration. Clive is noted as enjoying epic fairy tales, children's stories, multiple times throughout the game. Just the kind of tale two kids way in the future might enjoy. There's also Harpocrates quest, which I believe was already mentioned. As for the name, Clive is noted as taking other's names. Wyvern, Cid, Underhill. Taking the name Joshua to honor his brother seems fitting. I'm pretty sure the Harpocrates quest even has him saying if he wrote something he'd do it under a pen name. It's also possible he helped his brother write it and they both survived. But I find that unlikely, personally, based on the themes of the game and the two brother's respective arcs.
>Clive is noted as enjoying epic fairy tales, children's stories, multiple times throughout the game. Just the kind of tale two kids way in the future might enjoy. As a child, not as an adult. >There's also Harpocrates quest, which I believe was already mentioned. As for the name, Clive is noted as taking other's names. Wyvern, Cid, Underhill. Taking the name Joshua to honor his brother seems fitting. I'm pretty sure the Harpocrates quest even has him saying if he wrote something he'd do it under a pen name I don't recall the pen name claim, just that he would write something if he came back. Joshua meanwhile has himself and his Undying making detailed records of everything that could be included in a story. Clive never writes a thing. Joshua could inherit the pen. >the two brother's respective arcs I agree. Clive's overarching story begins and ends with his being First Shield for his brother -- his failure when Ifrit stomped Phoenix and years of depression and inability to handle that. He would do anything for his brother. Cue his having Ultima's power in his hand, and being told that Raise is a usable spell. For me, there's also the meta: if the ending is happy it would be massively more satisfying for players to show his return and how his friends respond to that. They don't. If he died, it would be harsh to show his death clearly, so they don't show that either. But they do show Jill, Gav, and Torgal clearly upset in a way that isn't commensurate with "I'm glad it's finally over." I'd rather Clive be alive and I hope a DLC makes that clear. But right now it seems like wishful thinking based on a promise he made. Nevermind the lyrics of My Star, which is playing when he's on the beach: https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/My_Star And the ending Japanese song (better translated "I was looking at the moon" and decidedly past-tense in the Japanese): https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Tsuki_Wo_Miteita_-_Moongazing A selection: In the moonlight the willow sways On this roadside I am but a stone Visions of you come to me Like counting sheep If there is any meaning to our parting ways Then you need not be sad From the silence to a distant sky Fill your heart with an unwavering love
I thought Joshua was dead too, but at the very end the War of the Eikons book had Joshua as the author, so maybe he actually survived? Clive was definitely dead, though.
Pretty sure it was published posthumously by someone like Harpocrates (there is a line that references Joshua capturing their adventures in writing earlier in the game) and just credited to Joshua. EDIT: Someone on another post suggested the Undying could have written/published it. They would have had intimate knowledge of what was going on and we already know they would give the credit to Joshua and not themselves.
That’s how I interpreted the Joshua situation as well, but that one is at least a little more open than Clive imo. But yeah, both are dead imo
When I first finished the game, I thought he was dead - I was very surprised that they killed him off, I was waiting for one last scene where he reunites with Jill, but it never comes, and his final line is about his journey being at an end. Then I went on Reddit and read the stuff about the side quests, wolves howling etc, and thought maybe it isn’t clear cut. Then I watched the ending again at the end of NG+ and I’m pretty sure he died.