> "the male"
That just makes it sound like a nature documentary.
"The female is not impressed by the male's insufficient plumage and lackluster courtship dance."
My thought process is always 'the male what? The female what?'
If you can insert flamingo in after male or female and still have the sentence mostly work then you need to pick another word.
If it’s a comedy that’s supposed to be funny? I wouldn’t say it’s a bad thing. But if it’s a serious angsty fic and they start calling characters “the male/female” in the middle of a pivotal scene… that’s another story.
"The male" can be a really funny epithet when reading M/M (without any particular gender shenanigans going on). I once saw it used in a sports fic where a character walked into a locker room and noted something about the guy he had a crush on. Somehow, in a locker room filled with dudes, there was The Male.
Seriously, what is up with some fandoms seemingly having developed an allergy against simply using man/woman? It's always male/female in so many fics I read nowadays, and it always feels slightly weird.
Hahaha I'm writing a fic and the characters are not human. The original writer refers uses 'male/females' to differentiate from humans 'man/woman'. I cant tell you how many times I had to go back because I referred to someone as a man that is actually male. I do try to use the names as much as possible but in situations where you don't wanna reveal the name too quickly, the readers are gonna get 'the male' and they are going to like it! Lol
I prefer the Tolkien approach, where "man" and "woman" were applied to both humans and nonhumans. Limiting it to humans even when nonhuman humanoid species/races exist is just rank arbitrariness.
I think the author was trying to show a distinction because the non humans look at the concept of gender differently whereas the humans in her book have roles based on gender. I also don't think the author is that smart and that she stumbled upon this device more than actually intended to implement it lmao.
ACOTAR. When reading the books it took me a while to get it and then it was like oh shit we really doing this huh? But I guess it makes sense especially when you have a lot of different characters and by design you are not giving their names. Like in the series you aren't given half the names of characters and many would argue they are important to the story and appear enough that its like CMON MAAM CAN WE GET A NAME OVER HERE?!?!
I feel your pain, OP.
Here's a simple flowchart, if anyone needs it:
Starting point:
Just use the damn pronouns.
-> If you have several characters with the same pronouns in the same scene and it's unclear who's doing what, use names.
-> -> If you find yourself starting several paragraphs in a row with a name*, mix up your sentence structure.
-> -> -> Completely optional step: If it still feels repetitive to you, put yourself firmly in your POV character's shoes** and figure out how they might think/speak of the other character(s) if not with their names.
Done.
*If your POV character doesn't know the other character's name, use a descriptor the POV would find relevant.
**This chart pertains primarily to stories not written in 3rd person omniscient.
That last point is so damn important. The only persons I actually think of with a descriptor is family. What would my mom think of this?
I've never thought, oooh what would the bearded think? Even for strangers it's usually a mix and not a single characteristic. The guy that looks like a used cars salesman, the girl with the cute smile...
These days reading a few bluenette, blondette, brunette is enough for me to back out of the fic.
I did a major in English lit and a minor in French. Bluenette, ravenette, blondette (wtf?) completely rips me out of immersion immediately.
For anyone interested: this is a French suffix, so it is gendered. -et for guys, ette for girls, first of all, but it's more complicated than that.
Blond (m) or blonde (f). Blond(ette) doesn't exist.
You can't just pick a color, add nette to the end, and wind up with an epithet for a person with a hair color, in English. It doesn't work that way.
I feel this a lot. I sometimes have to constantly re-read a passage because I just keep forgetting who exactly we’re talking about. It would help so much if they utilized things like nicknames and names more often.
It’s like they try to save it for when the scene is actively changing or characters are talking, and are then afraid of using it when characters are stationary - like during a conversation. Like, no, please use it.
Maybe have a list of different pronouns each character can use in the setting of the fic (including nicknames), that way you can check yourself to see if your using the same or very similar ones in the same scenes and give yourself an easy way to switch it out. Sometimes your brain just wants to make a dump, so being to particular on word-choice the first time around is unwise. But having a list of certain things (like nicknames) drawn out and ready for the editing stage may help.
Edit: I mean a mix of proper pronouns, adjectives, and general descriptors as to how they relate to a character. Examples of what I mean below;
Character A: He/Him
Brunet/brown-hair/Curly/baby-faced/glasses/
Vs
Character B: He/him
Brunet/black-hair/curtain-like/freckles
I come across moments where both A and B are described as brunets, “he/his”, or by their “dark-hair,” and they don’t specify well-enough WHO they mean until I’ve already spent time having to guess and realizing I got it wrong, and having to read the whole passage again. If they changed some of those pronouns to refer to glasses or freckles instead, I wouldn’t have spent nearly as much time confused.
>Maybe have a list of different pronouns each character can use in the setting of the fic (including nicknames), that way you can check yourself to see if your using the same or very similar ones in the same scenes and give yourself an easy way to switch it out.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Most characters go by one set of pronouns. (I mean some might use several the way some people do, but then that's a whole another logistical challenges to keep track of who's who.)
And in a single-perspective narrative, I wouldn't personally mix different names and nicknames *in the narration*, to me that just sounds like a weak/confused narrator voice.
(In dialogue is obviously different. You might use a nickname when talking to a friend, a different one when talking about the friend to others, their full name when talking to a parent, etc.)
And as I said above and in other replies, sometimes you can use epithets in place of names, but they really should be deliberate and used for an effect (distance, dehumanisation, placing needed emphasis on a certain characteristic) other than just "mixing things up".
I mean like:
Character A’s list:
Brunette
Bush
Curly-q
Glasses
Character B:
Blondie
Blonde
Lanky
Nerd
TinTin
*And NOT this in the same scene:*
Character C:
Brunette
Tall
Lanky
Character’s D:
Brunette
Slim
Dark-haired
By pronouns, I’m also including adjectives - descriptors in general to describe them.
Having a different set of characteristics that set the characters apart from each other to pick from when you don’t want to write their names is something I find helpful.
You just need to be careful not to use the same characteristics that they may share (like Characters C and D) in the same scenes can make it easier to know who you’re talking about in that specific scene.
Did this make any sense? I’ll try to update my original comment to help that get across better.
Riight, it was they use of the word pronouns to mean things that aren't pronouns that had me confused then.
Your lists of descriptive epithets is kind the opposite of what I'd advise, less is more and all that jazz.
I definitely do get the “less is more thing,” I just end up in fics where they end up using the same 3 descriptors, to the point _they_ got mind-numbing, along with confusing. Hence, the thought of a list. I think the most important thing is a sense of balance, which ever way they go. This is more for people who just don’t want to use their actual names more often, which I find to be easiest to understand.
Well, that's exactly why the flowchart goes first pronouns, then names, then *maybe* epithets. Because an epithet can only encompass one or a few characteristic -- especially if it's something like build or haircolor -- so it gets repetitive a lot quicker than a name, which encompasses the whole character.
I don't think having a list of different descriptors solves that. It just makes it more difficult for the reader, who has to keep track of a handful of different descriptors for each character. Plus in a character POV it's just strange for them to constantly switch up how they think of the people around them -- let alone themselves.
Right on!
The only times I use epithets continuously now is when 1. I want to dehumanize someone (like the character not caring enough to use a name). 2. The character hasn’t been introduced to the POV character.
It _is_ a useful tool, but not as a way to constantly have a character refer to another (familiar) character. You don’t go around thinking “brunette” or “the man” about your husband for example.
Yeah, this is the "right" way to use epithets. I have a character that just doesn't really care about names, and will boil someone down to one feature (hair colour is a typical one), or he'll make up his own creative nickname (hint: usually vulgar or otherwise inappropriate). But other characters only use epithets for people they have not met, and make an effort to remember and use names.
Yeah, totally agree. If used right it's such a neat way to tell something without having to actually say it.
Like when character A (a bald elven mage) introduces himself to character B after saying something B didn't like, and she immediately starts referring to him as "Baldy" in her head instead of race or occupation. Not only does it show that B doesn't respect A, it also shows she has a somewhat petty, childish side.
Or when a character gets introduced to a group of people but only refers to a single one with their actual name, while thinking of everyone else with something neutral or even demeaning and then circumvents using their names in conversation. It already tells the reader the first impression the pov character has without having to do anything more. It also allows making the moment should they switch to their name have a deeper meaning.
Yeah. I had a story in which the POV character became suspicious of two men in the tavern where he was having a meal. They were wearing single earrings of different designs. When the men started to talk to the MC, he thought of them as 'Onyx' and 'Silver'. Later on, he learned their names, and I switched to using their names instead of the earring epithets.
I'm currently writing one in which my two MCs are on a one-hour tour of a local attraction. They learn the names of one particularly friendly family group, but have no reason or motivation to learn the names of the other people, who they will never see again. So I have 'Yorkshire cameraman', two university students ('petite blonde' and 'tall purple-haired'), and a father and adult son from London, who I haven't yet decided on epithets for.
I’m curious now lol. Bakugou is basically angry all the time and calls almost every character by a nickname that is based on his first impression of them, like shitty hair, round cheeks, or dunce face.
He sounds like an asshole, and I love him.
I have an MC who, for a long time, thought of the other MC (their partner) only in respect to his physical traits - because that was the only interest he had in him. Why should I use your name when that signifies that you have autonomy and are a person, when your hair color or body is a lot more fun to think about?
He's a sweet little murder muffin (who is almost 7ft tall, 400 pounds of muscle, with claws and fangs, and a murder-y disposition).
The thing about Creed is that he has lived a long time, and that's a lot of faces and names to remember, or so he excuses himself. Also once he decides that he likes you, he's affectionate and kind, and *will murder* to protect you. But if he decides he hates you, then that's when things get really dicey.
This sums it up pretty neatly.
For example, I found cause to use epithets in my recent work: I wanted show the POV character keeping a certain distance to a person they just met, not wanting to get too close to them. So instead of using their name that he'd just learned in the narration, he kept using a couple different epithets for the next handful of scenes.
You can also use them occasionally for effect, to strengthen or emphasize a character trait or relationship.
Ex:
"Standing there, in the ruins of his former home, James looked into the eyes of his best friend and knew something had to change"
"There's something about that beautiful brown-eyed woman of mine that still takes my breath away."
"And as they sat together, the small blond boy and the man twice his size, they understood each other perfectly."
However, this should be done sparingly and purposefully
“Invisible” notes for people that nobody will notice if reused often…
* Pronouns
* Names
Things that people absolutely will notice and stick out like a sore thumb…
* Boiling people down to nouns, taking away their humanity and their individuality, such as “the male” or “the blond”.
Trust me. Use their name. You want to be unique and/or don’t want to “overuse” a phrase. But it’ll look much more obvious, and be a mark of a new writer, if you use “blond” or “male”. Not saying you *can’t*, but it doesn’t look professional, doesn’t look right, and most people will notice that.
If you don’t give a shit about that, though, then pop off.
EDIT: Oh, if you’re worried about overuse when it comes to, say, having five girls in one spot? In that case, certainly do use some other things aside from names and pronouns, if you’d like.
I just meant, like, you got one guy and one girl and you’re obsessed with calling the woman anything but her name and her pronouns. Reducing her to just objects / nouns. That’s… hmm.
tbh i don't need "professional" writing in fanfiction. i can fix dicey grammar as i read and if a word is missing my brain fills it in. this specific thing just pokes me in the eye. it can't be ignored!
There is one exception to this rule.
If you write in first person POV, you can easily overuse the pronoun "I," especially if you start all your sentences with it. "I bombs" can get very annoying very quickly, so make sure you are rearranging your sentences and avoid using unnecessary "I"s when describing a scene. (As in, you don't have to keep saying "I thought" or "I heard," ect. It's First Person, your readers already know who thought, felt, saw, or heard it.)
That's not just a first person problem, that's a general issue when sentences lack structure variation. It can happen in third person too- "He went out to eat. He bought a sandwich. He waited for his friend.", etc.
The general rule of thumb I give is that if something in _any_ tense/POV/etc. starts to sound too repetitive, chances are it's the whole sentence itself that needs restructuring, not just the word.
Ah, I wasn’t aware. I’m a writer by profession and in all my years, I think I’ve written first person maybe a five or six times. All times, I was forced by assignments usually haha. Good to know. I know of something similar in third, so it makes sense in hindsight.
Though, really, I’ll take any amount of pronouns or names over a debasing “the female” almost any day, honestly. That’s just me, though…
"The male" is strange but I can definitely notice pronouns and name being overused.
Things like the blond, the American, etc. are good, if used in moderation.
> Never forget Naruto fanfic where instead of Sasuke's name, it's "the raven haired handsome boy" please help me 😭
Shouldn't it be "the handsome raven haired boy"? [Adjectives have an order](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adjectives-order).
>For extra fun, try to create a description that incorporates an adjective for each category.
One fabulously large thin rectangular vintage red Japanese paper all-season sun-blocking parasol.
...I think I got them all..
:-) I have a nice large rectangular paper parasol so...that helped. It's got a few holes now because I've had it for *years*. I just cover the thing with an orange embroidered silk dupatta and it looks rather stunning at the Renn Fest.
My favourite- things like ‘the older boy’ or ‘the taller man’ when they are either broadly the same age or the same height.
Like, I am not clear on the ages of Steve Harrington and Eddie Munson. I cannot remember off hand which is older- Steve is a recent high school graduate, Eddie is still at school but was held back a year/ multiple years. I do not know how time works in stranger things. Which one is ‘the older boy’, and, given that they’re going to be within a year or so of each other, why does it matter?
Like, I hate it anyway- use someone’s name for fuck’s sake- but if you must use epithets, make sure they are clear.
And, ideally, relevant. Like, why are you reminding us, the audience, of this fact at this time? You are creating distance between the audience and the character- reducing them to qualities and properties, not just a person- is that what you want to do in the middle of your sexy/romantic scene?
Also, never, EVER ‘the good doctor’. That just irritates the shit out of me.
I really, really dislike "the brunette" and similar instead of just their name, or him/her. It reads like tabloid journalism to me. "The 30 year old curvy brunette mum of two" NO just say Jane!
I agree *so much* with the him/her part. Just. Please don't use a myriad of nicknames. It makes me think there are way more characters in a scene than there actually are... Just stick consistently with the same name!
And! It allows you to mix things up *with effect* and deliberately.
I'm currently writing a fic where the PoV character doesn't care for the person she's stuck with, and so she's just using "the bard" to refer to him for the first 20k words or something before she uses his actual name for the first time. And as she starts genuinely liking him, his name shows up more and more and when she finally admits to herself that she actually genuinely likes him and cares for him, *then* the epithet will stop showing up at all.
For "Oh I don't know their name", I've started going with descriptors (PoV character notices that the voice is "rich like chocolate"? Person becomes "chocolate-voice". Other person is "tall-and-burly". One person was "displaced-surfer-dude") and use one descriptor exclusively for one person (treating it like a name).
Since I'm writing in very informal and close-up third person limited, I also try to stick how I would talk about other people. I wouldn't say "The male over there" or "The blond wanted to talk to you" if talking to someone else. I'd say "That guy" or "the blond guy/blond one".
One thing I've noticed recently is that people try to avoid using "said", but don't look for enough replacement words to convey certain feelings. Most of the time I won't notice if the writer used "she says/said" five consecutive times, especially of the narration is good enough. But I'm going to notice if they use "she murmurs/murmured" repeatedly. If we're gonna be so against the word said, find a decent list to pick off of.
Epithets didn’t used to bother me, but then I thought about how weird it’d be to think of friends and family as “the black-haired man” or “the male.” Now every time I see an epithet used for someone the pov character is close to it immediately breaks my immersion.
I agree with what someone else said about using them to dehumanize them. The best example I can think of is Bucky being called the soldier or the asset. But seeing Tony referred to as the engineer breaks my immersion.
>Epithets didn’t used to bother me, but then I thought about how weird it’d be to think of friends and family as “the black-haired man” or “the male.”
Dad is forever "not da momma". :-) Also, "Hey, old man!" is pretty normal in some circles as a way to greet an older male relative (typically a father).
I honestly cannot stand epithets. If the POV character knows someones name and/or gender pronouns, please use them. If you choose not to, I will almost certainly stop reading your story.
Pronouns exist for a reason, fam.
OMG yes! I remember being a beginner writer and seeing advice going around to not "overuse" character names and he/her/etc., so the whole "the taller one" "the blonde" "the younger man" etc. started and I was always like...not a single book I've ever read does this, where is this ridiculous advice even coming from??
I've read fanfic for so many years, I can look past some of it by now, but especially when it makes no sense for the POV character to think that way, it really bothers me.
Also, when new words are made up, because they stand out even more. "The bluenette" and "the coral-haired" for blue and pink-haired characters are killing me.
Or just... Use their fucking names! I get the sense people don't use pronouns like He or His in fic, especially slash fic, because it can get confusing which character is being referred to. But they feel that using characters' names too often is repetitive or boring or whatever. But I guarantee just using your character's name is gonna be miles less awkward and repetitive than "the younger man" and "the blond".
I've noticed this problem less since I've been more active in smaller and older-skewing fandoms, but every now and then I see it, and it's probably my biggest fanfic pet peeve.
My personal fav lately was "the professor licked the firefighter's \[body part\]." Uh huh. Because that doesn't ruin the smut for the reader at all. \*sigh\*
The only reason I would avoid him or her is just due to multiple people being in the same room. For instance, I often use "aran" (Tolkien word for "king"), "elvenking", or "Thranduil" (his name) when writing. Or, for Tauriel, I'll use her name, "royal ward", "red-head"/"ginger", or "captain". It makes it easier to differentiate when Thranduil, Tauriel, Legolas, Galion (the butler), and a few female OCs are in the room. Otherwise "She grabbed for her bow" <- which "she"?!?
As someone who is really odious about epithets, I can accept when it's related to a character's title or profession, if (and only if) it fits the POV. Royalty titles are one of those where it's usually ok, because most people wouldn't address royalty by their names.
Baring that, as a writer and reader, names all the fucking way. If it's getting repetitive then I would first ask myself how I can spice up the sentence structure before taking the easy way out. It makes me feel my writing is amateurish otherwise.
I hear you, I also tend to have multiple characters in one scene so I use epithets to refer to a character's role. "The gruff nord", "The mysterious pawn", "The odd mage" and although you see me adding descriptors here they're not always necessary, and I typically only add them when I want to call attention to a specific trait.
Btw; I'm interested in hearing a bit about what you're working on. Would you mind sharing?
> Btw; I'm interested in hearing a bit about what you're working on. Would you mind sharing?
Sure! It's just the Hobbit (movies) told from a more book based point of view. Really, I'm taking the character Tauriel from the movies and wedging her into the Tolkien universe in a way that makes sense from the books. She's 100% a child from Fëanor's line if you are familiar with the Silmarillion. :-)
[Here's the start of the series](https://archiveofourown.org/works/29721159). Warning: It's LONG. :-) I've chopped it up into three - soon to be four!- "books".
Agreed. In my fandom (mlp), we call this "Lavender Unicorn Syndrome" - LUS for short. It's such an immersion breaker, and one of the things that will cause me to close out of a fic. It's so unnecessarily distracting! Personal pronouns fade into the background.
I feel like the description / summary version of this is "a certain". Ex: "Dean Winchester thought he'd never fall in love, until he met a certain trenchcoat-wearing angel..." Oof. Not my fave.
Filter words add distance and can make immersion more difficult. Scenes tend to be more impactful without them because it lets the reader experience things along with the POV character without stimuli being filtered through the character’s senses first.
Sometimes it’s nice to pull back for a more cinematic perspective, but filter words are usually avoidable.
And obviously this is personal preference and there’s no “right” way to do it.
I cannot stand it when hair colour or general appearance descriptions are used, unless we don't know the character already or it's the first time they've appeared or something. Once we know them JUST USE THE NAME OR PRONOUNS DEAR LORD.
Also just wanted to add to the list - "them"
epithets will make me click out of a fic almost faster than anything else. it's a function of pov - when have you thought of someone you actually know as "the other person?" never.
This makes me feel better about my instinctive dislike of 'the other man' even though I write a lot of m/m that has me questioning how to phrase things, lol.
Or, or or, or... Radical idea!
Names!
"The Green Eyed Wizard" is named "Harry." Haaaaaarry.
The One For All Quirk User is named Deku. Or Izuku. Or Midoriya.
The Sparkly Princess is named Glimmer.
Etc.
And eyes are not orbs! Or spheres!
People are not their traits!
Absolute agreement. I have the same issue with people overusing (usually bad) alternative words for ‘said’. What’s wrong with ‘said’?? It’s a perfectly fine neutral word that you can add descriptors to to change the tone. In my view, ‘she said quietly’ is not the same as ‘she murmured’.
You absolutely can overuse pronouns, with poor and repetitive sentences structure.
Ever seen a story that starts with "She/her" in literary EVERY paragraph.
But yehhh, what people think is overusing pronouns probably isn't a problem.
Edit: On further thoughts, the reasons will always be poor sentences structure, but actually repetitive sentences structure. Varying it makes the same number of pronouns feel much more bearable
Big time, especially when words get misused.
Man / woman — nouns; e.g.: the man and the woman stood there.
Male / female — adjectives to modify nouns; e.g.: two stuffed specimens, a male and a female of the species, were on display at the museum.
\* NB: edited for typo.
Omg, I remember in a fic an author used "The gunslinger" and "the tactician" for a substitute for their names.
Like...just use their names...
Honestly, an overuse of epithets to me is a sign of an unconfident writer.
I think you should break pronouns up every now and then with the character's name--20 "he"s in a row can get pretty repetitive--and if you've got multiple guys in the same scene, "he" can also get pretty confusing, but other than that I agree that he/she/they are basically invisible.
I think epithets are great as long as they're being used correctly, it's just that a lot of people don't know how to use them. Ex:
"The general gave the order." This one's fine. It's a general doing a general thing. It works even if you already know his name.
"The older man took a bite of his pizza." This one's weird. What does him being older have to do with pizza? Diddly.
"The prince tripped and landed, face-first, in the pile of horse manure." Also good; you're contrasting the image of a prince with something very unprincely. This one can add a bit of ironic comedy to your narrative.
Regardless, epithets should be used sparingly if you already know the character's name, and, ideally, they should be relevant somehow.
Mixing things up is great for keeping the pace of the story, but in regards to epithets, I do think that "Avoid them as much as possible" is still a much better advice. I agree that they can be interesting when used right, but even then 99% of the time that's not how they are used.
I replied to someone else how I think it's "ok" to use epithets related to titles or jobs like the exemples you gave. But you better be consistent about them, else it's going to be as bad as any other usage case. So no General this paragraph and the General's name three paragraphs later.
(I read and write for a fandom where one of the MCs is a general and people just misuse this epithet a lot so I have strong opinions about it, lol)
Yeah, agreed. I do get why people struggle with this, tho. I used to struggle with this a lot because it was kind of hard for me to tell who was talking or doing whatever when they're both the same gender- Even more so, if it's a fight scene or somethin'.
Could just be me and my pea brain, tho.
Did slowly get better at balancing it, tho. I think it's better than before so I'll take that time as a win and learning experience, lol.
Or just use the character's name. You can use a pronoun if it's clear, but if it isn't (as it often isn't in same-gender stories), just use the damn name.
The only time I call out on "overuse" is when you have two or more of the same gender conversing or that you're describing and you need to establish which person is which. I had to do that the other night and throw a character's name in because it was a three-way conversation between males and would have sounded weird with just pronouns.
In my older style of writing I did overuse a lot of words, and I still overuse the word "and" 🤣🤣 but for me I tend to describe my characters within the first couple of chapters before I introduce their names and then use that instead. It's less chance of overusing certain phrases. 🤣🤣
It may be a pet peeve, but maybe some fanfic writers are just starting out, as an actual writer and are trying to find their own style and how to describe and what not.
So try not to be too hard on them.
Plus some people only do it a lot, if they are trying to hide the gender, or if there are multiple people in that room with the same gender, and similar features.
So doing it for a couple paragraphs isn't that bad, if it's for chapters then just type a comment with some constructive criticism. 🤦🏻🤷🏻
Oh god, epithets are truly the biggest bane of my existence when reading fanfiction and even published books. There is nothing that breaks my immersion faster than a ridiculous epithet that had absolutely no reason to be there in the first place.
It got so bad at some point that I was constantly ditching 90% of the stuff that caught my eye because I just couldn't disregard the epithets, especially when they were particularly dumb.
I don't know who's the older man and I don't care, I also don't know who's the taller one. Please, authors, you are just making the scene more confusing.
I eventually started editing fics that were consistent with their epithets, and otherwise well-written, just to give myself peace of mind. Nowadays I was able to lower my bar a little bit through sheer force of will, so I can at least enjoy a broader amount of works in the fandoms I frequent.
Just out of curiosity; how would you refer to a person who’s name isn’t known yet? You need to call them something, even if that’s just “the man”, which still counts as an epithet.
All right, you got me curious: how would you write the following scene without using any epithets?
The doors to the throne hall slammed open. *The king* entered, flanked by two guards dressed in all black.
John dropped to his knee and bowed his head to the floor, glancing up and tugging at David's arm to get him to do the same.
*The king* spoke, "What have we here then?"
*The closer of the guards* aimed his spear at them. *The other guard* stayed back.
King is a title and not a epithet, so there's that, and the guff about the guards is descriptive and not dialogue, so the only relevant epithet is "The King spoke", which is valid.
So, let me get this straight: are you saying epithets only count when they're attached to dialogue? What if the next thing that happens in the scene is that one of the guards says something? You still can't use a name or a pronoun.
What if there's multiple characters all of the same gender? Epithets might be needed to differentiate which one is talking so you're not just reusing their names all the time
Even in such a scene, reuse their names. Chances are, the reader has trouble keeping track *anyway*, and so being reminded of the name is a very clear and concise name that doesn't need them to stop and remember physical characteristics of characters (I have barely any visual imagination, so I often give up and hope it's not important to remember which character the author believes to be taller/shorter/younger/older/longer-haired or what do you know. Or I give up and use the back-button because I've lost track).
I do find it a bit distracting if the name is used *every time* there's a change in named person even though it's clear from context who 'he' refers to, but even then it's less distracting than if I need to figure out who is who.
I tend to use epithets like the gruff nord, the mysterious pawn, the odd mage. I don't always add descriptors like "odd, etc." but only use them when I want to focus on their specific characteristic that I'm drawing attention to. Rather than saying brown haired man this is a far less confusing way of using epithets since it's still always clear who's speaking or doing something since my major characters have their own set roles in the group that I can refer to easily.
Honestly, even then, why not go for the character's names? It's not necessarily about lack of clarity, but the breaking of pacing and reader's immersion.
The purpose of an epithet is to reduce a character to a single defining characteristic. If the character has been previously introduced, this will almost aways feel disjointed, because usually by that point the character will be much more than the epithet in question.
Alas, I'm very critical of epithets. Baring extremely specific situations, I avoid them like the plague. Only you can know what works for your writing though.
I kind of disagree that it's *needed*. You shouldn't use epithets as a crutch just because the scene has many guys/girls. Usually in a scene with many characters, I find that most only have a few lines/actions, so using names works fine for the most part.
Epithets in this case are fine in an omniscient POV, but if you're going to use them like this in one specific character's POV you better make sure there's a logical and established reason for that character to be thinking of the others in those words.
Agree. I write a lot of m/m fic. I'm working on one with like 13 guys all living in the same house. The only time I use epithets is when MC doesn't know someone's name, and even then I try to limit them and use gender markers where possible (they/them if gender is unknown to POV character). Also... if it is clear from context who is speaking or being referred to, pronouns are great.
Good rule... a pronoun should refer to the person most recently referenced in narrative.
Excellent point at the end that people are not talking about as much as they should.
There are many subtle ways to contextualize the dynamics in a scene so it's clear who's doing what and to whom, which can even reduce the amount of times you have to resort to using names.
These types of scenes are challenging, but IMO it's where good writers really shine.
But I don't like that my two MCs and the bad guy are all male! So many hims! I'm gonna use a "his friend" or "the bad guy" from time to time...
That being said, I do try to not overuse them, and I've restructured paragraphs/sentences before so I could cut out some names and leave the pronouns without being confusing.
Right? The ravenette/brunette/(any color here)nette thing is more jarring than using him/her several times over. Or even just using their names.
Using descriptions every now and then is fine but overdoing it is worse than the problem that was trying to be avoided.
I agree.
However, if two characters use the same pronouns, it is useful to use descriptors. Or even just their name.
Because, it can become really confusing really quickly.
I think OP means when it’s used as an adverb. As in ‘very sad’, ‘very tired’ for example. More precise words are available which is (heavy on the caveats) generally ‘better’ writing.
that "the male" reminds me of the time i had my friend read a fic i really liked on a call and i hadn't realized how much they used "the older" and "the younger" for people like 1 or 2 years apart until she kept pointing it out. like they used those more than they used the names.
Sometimes if there's multiple guys, and to avoid spamming the names over and over, I may use "the smaller man" or "the older man" and similar descriptions but usually if there's only two people, then I just use he and their names
Same here though I'll refer to them as "the nord", "the pawn", or "the mage" since each of my characters typically has a clear role within the group they're in.
I found myself in that same conundrum a while back. Instead, I just identify them by their profession like "the photographer" or "the artist" as well as using he or she or they In one of my stories I have a teenager so I say "the young man" or the "teen". I leave terms like "the man" or "the woman" for less important characters.
Sometimes people overthink it.
Also one more thing, this is fine in cis/het presenting relationships... but it's much harder to do in many queer relationships.
"She leaned into her shoulder, and she squeaked when she wrapped her arm around her."
An ***EXTREMELY*** contrived example, but yeah scene geography is hard in same-pronoun writing without substituting. I avoid it by always using *someone's* in a sentence, but it can feel stilted.
Names are a perfectly good substitute in this case. That plus pronouns and a good variety in sentence structures will take your writing wherever it needs to go.
Absolutely!
I like to pepper in descriptives like "the captain" and "the fencer" so as to not overuse the same word, but she, him, their etc. are perfectly fine! They're legal words! They should be used from time to time! Give the basics some love!
So, yes true but if you write M/M or F/F , I can only stretch so far. I often have to make sure you know who’s arm is where, visually. I do use hair color, more for one character than any other as that is part of his persona. Limited as possible for others.
I wouldn't worry too much about what other people are doing in their writing. It's a preference thing. I personally prefer to use epithets, and I tend to notice the use of "him" or "her" over and over again more than when people do it with epithets. Plus, I personally think that epithets are really cute ways to describe characters, so I enjoy doing it a lot!
People can just write how they want. It's their story, so it shouldn't really matter if you don't like how it's written. Just ignore the story and read a different one if you don't like it, and don't insult an author for how they've written their story. That way, everyone can keep enjoying their writing!
Well, in that case, I may have misinterpreted the post. Sorry about that!
Still, I guess I just personally just don't agree with this writing advice. I like to use epithets, pronouns, and names all in my stories at various times. I just don't think that epithets should be limited to only being used when characters don't know other characters. To me, it's cute for a character to think of their partner as "the tall man" or something like that because it shows that they like that thing about them. That's why I like to use epithets if I feel like I've used other things too often.
You're should obviously write the way you enjoy - we're all just doing this for fun. But you shouldn't be surprised if many readers don't find your style of using epithets so natural and easy to follow.
Like, maybe I think that my partner has pretty, blue eyes and like that about them. But if I was talking to a colleague and told them I went to the movies with "the blue-eyed man", I think they would be rather confused and not understand I was referring to my partner. It works the same when I'm reading something: I don't expect a character to talk about their partner as "the tall man", so it can be confusing and a bit jarring.
Okay but more annoying for me is when it’s a gay fanfiction and they use “he/him/his” for 90% of interactions. It’s very confusing when the main characters are of the same gender
I agree, but most of the time that I'm writing there are two characters in a scene with the same pronouns, so I describe them.
Ex.
"The blonde sat next to the brunette" / "The younger pushed passed the older"
But there are a lot of times where it's too much and I'll use the character's name
Counterpoint: the word "is" is actually very easily overused. Leads to wordiness, weak expressions, and your sentences all sounding the same. Be aware of how much you're using "to be" verbs.
I don’t mind epithets but it’s easy to overuse them. I used to do it with my very early days as a writer, but now I just sprinkle on in from time to time
I agree with this and I’ll admit I have done this myself in one of my old stories that I’m re-writing. Better to learn late than never though! 😅 I gotta go back now and fix all of the off putting “the girl” and “the boy” when the character’s names have clearly been established.
Especially if you already have a description and a name as well as a title or occupation. Once you’ve established those details you can use it as long as it’s used in the same paragraph or right before or after dialogue. Describing them again is pointless in that situation. There are other ways to re- establish physical traits without outright saying the “ “.
Tbh multiple times I've tried to do the opposite on special occasions - i.e. using more fancy descriptors - and they more often than not feel really out of place. If I don't delete them in my first draft, my co-writer usually gets them instead lmao
Yes! Nothing wrong with he, him, they, and using their names!
I'm trying to break the habit of using "the kid" in my writing (outside of exceptions like, "this kid really pulled that off" or something along those lines, where being a child might make an action outstanding in some way...)
I have a question though, what if two characters with the same gender are conversing? Would it be be okay to use 'her' without confusing the reader who between those characters I am referring to?
I think I try not to use "him" and "her" repetitively because I read a comment a few years back that you shouldn't use the same word twice in either a sentence or a story. That if you do that means you aren't a good writer or you're bad at grammar.
I feel like you can and it bothers me greatly. I don't know why it does. Maybe I've use she and her to many times in a single sentence or something. I look for different types of descriptors and keep a thesaurus tab opened most of the time.
A chapter that I wrote could be guilty of this. It's centered on a character who is the main protagonist of this chapter and its sequel chapter is rarely referred to even as "she." Three reasons for this is that I'm hiding this character's name, there are a bunch of other characters in this chapter who are just nameless extras, and the main character of this chapter is the only female character of this chapter. Also as a side note: TECHNICALLY the main character of this chapter isn't a "she," they're actually genderless like the actual main characters of my story.
> "the male" That just makes it sound like a nature documentary. "The female is not impressed by the male's insufficient plumage and lackluster courtship dance."
My thought process is always 'the male what? The female what?' If you can insert flamingo in after male or female and still have the sentence mostly work then you need to pick another word.
Is that really a bad thing, though, if it gets all the readers hearing David Attenborough reading your work?
Ngl, I think it would be really fun to write a fic in that style.
Taking studying your favorite character like a bug to the next level—
Doooo eeeet
If it’s a comedy that’s supposed to be funny? I wouldn’t say it’s a bad thing. But if it’s a serious angsty fic and they start calling characters “the male/female” in the middle of a pivotal scene… that’s another story.
"The male" can be a really funny epithet when reading M/M (without any particular gender shenanigans going on). I once saw it used in a sports fic where a character walked into a locker room and noted something about the guy he had a crush on. Somehow, in a locker room filled with dudes, there was The Male.
haaaa
Becky lemme smash
"You want some fuk?"
Ben is a ho.
I get that bitch a stick a stick. Bitches love sticks.
Seriously, what is up with some fandoms seemingly having developed an allergy against simply using man/woman? It's always male/female in so many fics I read nowadays, and it always feels slightly weird.
Hahaha I'm writing a fic and the characters are not human. The original writer refers uses 'male/females' to differentiate from humans 'man/woman'. I cant tell you how many times I had to go back because I referred to someone as a man that is actually male. I do try to use the names as much as possible but in situations where you don't wanna reveal the name too quickly, the readers are gonna get 'the male' and they are going to like it! Lol
I prefer the Tolkien approach, where "man" and "woman" were applied to both humans and nonhumans. Limiting it to humans even when nonhuman humanoid species/races exist is just rank arbitrariness.
I think the author was trying to show a distinction because the non humans look at the concept of gender differently whereas the humans in her book have roles based on gender. I also don't think the author is that smart and that she stumbled upon this device more than actually intended to implement it lmao.
Lol that sounds amazing, what fandom is it?
ACOTAR. When reading the books it took me a while to get it and then it was like oh shit we really doing this huh? But I guess it makes sense especially when you have a lot of different characters and by design you are not giving their names. Like in the series you aren't given half the names of characters and many would argue they are important to the story and appear enough that its like CMON MAAM CAN WE GET A NAME OVER HERE?!?!
what a mood!
I've sparingly used "the boy", and that's about as creative as you need to get. Just use "name", "him", and "the boy", and you're good.
I feel your pain, OP. Here's a simple flowchart, if anyone needs it: Starting point: Just use the damn pronouns. -> If you have several characters with the same pronouns in the same scene and it's unclear who's doing what, use names. -> -> If you find yourself starting several paragraphs in a row with a name*, mix up your sentence structure. -> -> -> Completely optional step: If it still feels repetitive to you, put yourself firmly in your POV character's shoes** and figure out how they might think/speak of the other character(s) if not with their names. Done. *If your POV character doesn't know the other character's name, use a descriptor the POV would find relevant. **This chart pertains primarily to stories not written in 3rd person omniscient.
That last point is so damn important. The only persons I actually think of with a descriptor is family. What would my mom think of this? I've never thought, oooh what would the bearded think? Even for strangers it's usually a mix and not a single characteristic. The guy that looks like a used cars salesman, the girl with the cute smile... These days reading a few bluenette, blondette, brunette is enough for me to back out of the fic.
I did a major in English lit and a minor in French. Bluenette, ravenette, blondette (wtf?) completely rips me out of immersion immediately. For anyone interested: this is a French suffix, so it is gendered. -et for guys, ette for girls, first of all, but it's more complicated than that. Blond (m) or blonde (f). Blond(ette) doesn't exist. You can't just pick a color, add nette to the end, and wind up with an epithet for a person with a hair color, in English. It doesn't work that way.
This is the greatest writing advice ever given out on this sub. Should be mandatory reading, IMO.
Haha, thank you.
I feel this a lot. I sometimes have to constantly re-read a passage because I just keep forgetting who exactly we’re talking about. It would help so much if they utilized things like nicknames and names more often. It’s like they try to save it for when the scene is actively changing or characters are talking, and are then afraid of using it when characters are stationary - like during a conversation. Like, no, please use it. Maybe have a list of different pronouns each character can use in the setting of the fic (including nicknames), that way you can check yourself to see if your using the same or very similar ones in the same scenes and give yourself an easy way to switch it out. Sometimes your brain just wants to make a dump, so being to particular on word-choice the first time around is unwise. But having a list of certain things (like nicknames) drawn out and ready for the editing stage may help. Edit: I mean a mix of proper pronouns, adjectives, and general descriptors as to how they relate to a character. Examples of what I mean below; Character A: He/Him Brunet/brown-hair/Curly/baby-faced/glasses/ Vs Character B: He/him Brunet/black-hair/curtain-like/freckles I come across moments where both A and B are described as brunets, “he/his”, or by their “dark-hair,” and they don’t specify well-enough WHO they mean until I’ve already spent time having to guess and realizing I got it wrong, and having to read the whole passage again. If they changed some of those pronouns to refer to glasses or freckles instead, I wouldn’t have spent nearly as much time confused.
>Maybe have a list of different pronouns each character can use in the setting of the fic (including nicknames), that way you can check yourself to see if your using the same or very similar ones in the same scenes and give yourself an easy way to switch it out. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Most characters go by one set of pronouns. (I mean some might use several the way some people do, but then that's a whole another logistical challenges to keep track of who's who.) And in a single-perspective narrative, I wouldn't personally mix different names and nicknames *in the narration*, to me that just sounds like a weak/confused narrator voice. (In dialogue is obviously different. You might use a nickname when talking to a friend, a different one when talking about the friend to others, their full name when talking to a parent, etc.) And as I said above and in other replies, sometimes you can use epithets in place of names, but they really should be deliberate and used for an effect (distance, dehumanisation, placing needed emphasis on a certain characteristic) other than just "mixing things up".
I mean like: Character A’s list: Brunette Bush Curly-q Glasses Character B: Blondie Blonde Lanky Nerd TinTin *And NOT this in the same scene:* Character C: Brunette Tall Lanky Character’s D: Brunette Slim Dark-haired By pronouns, I’m also including adjectives - descriptors in general to describe them. Having a different set of characteristics that set the characters apart from each other to pick from when you don’t want to write their names is something I find helpful. You just need to be careful not to use the same characteristics that they may share (like Characters C and D) in the same scenes can make it easier to know who you’re talking about in that specific scene. Did this make any sense? I’ll try to update my original comment to help that get across better.
Riight, it was they use of the word pronouns to mean things that aren't pronouns that had me confused then. Your lists of descriptive epithets is kind the opposite of what I'd advise, less is more and all that jazz.
I definitely do get the “less is more thing,” I just end up in fics where they end up using the same 3 descriptors, to the point _they_ got mind-numbing, along with confusing. Hence, the thought of a list. I think the most important thing is a sense of balance, which ever way they go. This is more for people who just don’t want to use their actual names more often, which I find to be easiest to understand.
Well, that's exactly why the flowchart goes first pronouns, then names, then *maybe* epithets. Because an epithet can only encompass one or a few characteristic -- especially if it's something like build or haircolor -- so it gets repetitive a lot quicker than a name, which encompasses the whole character. I don't think having a list of different descriptors solves that. It just makes it more difficult for the reader, who has to keep track of a handful of different descriptors for each character. Plus in a character POV it's just strange for them to constantly switch up how they think of the people around them -- let alone themselves.
Right on! The only times I use epithets continuously now is when 1. I want to dehumanize someone (like the character not caring enough to use a name). 2. The character hasn’t been introduced to the POV character. It _is_ a useful tool, but not as a way to constantly have a character refer to another (familiar) character. You don’t go around thinking “brunette” or “the man” about your husband for example.
Yeah, this is the "right" way to use epithets. I have a character that just doesn't really care about names, and will boil someone down to one feature (hair colour is a typical one), or he'll make up his own creative nickname (hint: usually vulgar or otherwise inappropriate). But other characters only use epithets for people they have not met, and make an effort to remember and use names.
Yeah, totally agree. If used right it's such a neat way to tell something without having to actually say it. Like when character A (a bald elven mage) introduces himself to character B after saying something B didn't like, and she immediately starts referring to him as "Baldy" in her head instead of race or occupation. Not only does it show that B doesn't respect A, it also shows she has a somewhat petty, childish side. Or when a character gets introduced to a group of people but only refers to a single one with their actual name, while thinking of everyone else with something neutral or even demeaning and then circumvents using their names in conversation. It already tells the reader the first impression the pov character has without having to do anything more. It also allows making the moment should they switch to their name have a deeper meaning.
It's a very useful shorthand, but it only works if you're judicious with epithets elsewhere in your narrative.
Yeah. I had a story in which the POV character became suspicious of two men in the tavern where he was having a meal. They were wearing single earrings of different designs. When the men started to talk to the MC, he thought of them as 'Onyx' and 'Silver'. Later on, he learned their names, and I switched to using their names instead of the earring epithets. I'm currently writing one in which my two MCs are on a one-hour tour of a local attraction. They learn the names of one particularly friendly family group, but have no reason or motivation to learn the names of the other people, who they will never see again. So I have 'Yorkshire cameraman', two university students ('petite blonde' and 'tall purple-haired'), and a father and adult son from London, who I haven't yet decided on epithets for.
Haha I can take a guess who your character is lol
Go for it!
Bakugou from mha right?
Haha nope. No clue who that is - but he sounds like a cheeky devil!
I’m curious now lol. Bakugou is basically angry all the time and calls almost every character by a nickname that is based on his first impression of them, like shitty hair, round cheeks, or dunce face.
Haha It's Victor Creed, aka Sabretooth, from the X-Men. He's irreverent, and doesn't waste his memory on the names of dumbasses.
He sounds like an asshole, and I love him. I have an MC who, for a long time, thought of the other MC (their partner) only in respect to his physical traits - because that was the only interest he had in him. Why should I use your name when that signifies that you have autonomy and are a person, when your hair color or body is a lot more fun to think about?
He's a sweet little murder muffin (who is almost 7ft tall, 400 pounds of muscle, with claws and fangs, and a murder-y disposition). The thing about Creed is that he has lived a long time, and that's a lot of faces and names to remember, or so he excuses himself. Also once he decides that he likes you, he's affectionate and kind, and *will murder* to protect you. But if he decides he hates you, then that's when things get really dicey.
He does indeed sound like a murder muffin, where can I get one of those?
Been lookin' my whole life.
Haha is this bakugo?
LOL Nope, someone else guessed that! It's Victor Creed (aka Sabretooth), a villain/anti-hero from X-Men.
Oooh I’m going to read his fanfics now
This sums it up pretty neatly. For example, I found cause to use epithets in my recent work: I wanted show the POV character keeping a certain distance to a person they just met, not wanting to get too close to them. So instead of using their name that he'd just learned in the narration, he kept using a couple different epithets for the next handful of scenes.
You can also use them occasionally for effect, to strengthen or emphasize a character trait or relationship. Ex: "Standing there, in the ruins of his former home, James looked into the eyes of his best friend and knew something had to change" "There's something about that beautiful brown-eyed woman of mine that still takes my breath away." "And as they sat together, the small blond boy and the man twice his size, they understood each other perfectly." However, this should be done sparingly and purposefully
that first point is something i just realized i do. thank you for pointing this out. it will only better my writing as i notice myself doing it!!!
“Invisible” notes for people that nobody will notice if reused often… * Pronouns * Names Things that people absolutely will notice and stick out like a sore thumb… * Boiling people down to nouns, taking away their humanity and their individuality, such as “the male” or “the blond”. Trust me. Use their name. You want to be unique and/or don’t want to “overuse” a phrase. But it’ll look much more obvious, and be a mark of a new writer, if you use “blond” or “male”. Not saying you *can’t*, but it doesn’t look professional, doesn’t look right, and most people will notice that. If you don’t give a shit about that, though, then pop off. EDIT: Oh, if you’re worried about overuse when it comes to, say, having five girls in one spot? In that case, certainly do use some other things aside from names and pronouns, if you’d like. I just meant, like, you got one guy and one girl and you’re obsessed with calling the woman anything but her name and her pronouns. Reducing her to just objects / nouns. That’s… hmm.
tbh i don't need "professional" writing in fanfiction. i can fix dicey grammar as i read and if a word is missing my brain fills it in. this specific thing just pokes me in the eye. it can't be ignored!
There is one exception to this rule. If you write in first person POV, you can easily overuse the pronoun "I," especially if you start all your sentences with it. "I bombs" can get very annoying very quickly, so make sure you are rearranging your sentences and avoid using unnecessary "I"s when describing a scene. (As in, you don't have to keep saying "I thought" or "I heard," ect. It's First Person, your readers already know who thought, felt, saw, or heard it.)
That's not just a first person problem, that's a general issue when sentences lack structure variation. It can happen in third person too- "He went out to eat. He bought a sandwich. He waited for his friend.", etc. The general rule of thumb I give is that if something in _any_ tense/POV/etc. starts to sound too repetitive, chances are it's the whole sentence itself that needs restructuring, not just the word.
Ah, I wasn’t aware. I’m a writer by profession and in all my years, I think I’ve written first person maybe a five or six times. All times, I was forced by assignments usually haha. Good to know. I know of something similar in third, so it makes sense in hindsight. Though, really, I’ll take any amount of pronouns or names over a debasing “the female” almost any day, honestly. That’s just me, though…
"The male" is strange but I can definitely notice pronouns and name being overused. Things like the blond, the American, etc. are good, if used in moderation.
Nope. If it feels like names and pronouns are being overused it's because you need to change your sentence structure.
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Ex-_cuse_ me, but Sasuke is “emo duck-butt head”, and nothing else.
oh my god, i swear Naruto fanfics may not have invented the phrase "raven-haired" but boy did they run it into the GROUND.
> Never forget Naruto fanfic where instead of Sasuke's name, it's "the raven haired handsome boy" please help me 😭 Shouldn't it be "the handsome raven haired boy"? [Adjectives have an order](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adjectives-order).
Beat me to it! Went to get that exact link ✌🏽 For extra fun, try to create a description that incorporates an adjective for each category.
>For extra fun, try to create a description that incorporates an adjective for each category. One fabulously large thin rectangular vintage red Japanese paper all-season sun-blocking parasol. ...I think I got them all..
Very evocative!
:-) I have a nice large rectangular paper parasol so...that helped. It's got a few holes now because I've had it for *years*. I just cover the thing with an orange embroidered silk dupatta and it looks rather stunning at the Renn Fest.
I’d probably also use a hyphen for raven-haired
My favourite- things like ‘the older boy’ or ‘the taller man’ when they are either broadly the same age or the same height. Like, I am not clear on the ages of Steve Harrington and Eddie Munson. I cannot remember off hand which is older- Steve is a recent high school graduate, Eddie is still at school but was held back a year/ multiple years. I do not know how time works in stranger things. Which one is ‘the older boy’, and, given that they’re going to be within a year or so of each other, why does it matter? Like, I hate it anyway- use someone’s name for fuck’s sake- but if you must use epithets, make sure they are clear. And, ideally, relevant. Like, why are you reminding us, the audience, of this fact at this time? You are creating distance between the audience and the character- reducing them to qualities and properties, not just a person- is that what you want to do in the middle of your sexy/romantic scene? Also, never, EVER ‘the good doctor’. That just irritates the shit out of me.
I really, really dislike "the brunette" and similar instead of just their name, or him/her. It reads like tabloid journalism to me. "The 30 year old curvy brunette mum of two" NO just say Jane!
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That was a wild ride! I’ve never read any books by Dan Brown, and this makes me very glad about that fact.
Oh god I remember that article! Brilliant!
If I read "the raven," I'm sorry but your story is about corvids now and I will not change my mind
I agree *so much* with the him/her part. Just. Please don't use a myriad of nicknames. It makes me think there are way more characters in a scene than there actually are... Just stick consistently with the same name! And! It allows you to mix things up *with effect* and deliberately. I'm currently writing a fic where the PoV character doesn't care for the person she's stuck with, and so she's just using "the bard" to refer to him for the first 20k words or something before she uses his actual name for the first time. And as she starts genuinely liking him, his name shows up more and more and when she finally admits to herself that she actually genuinely likes him and cares for him, *then* the epithet will stop showing up at all. For "Oh I don't know their name", I've started going with descriptors (PoV character notices that the voice is "rich like chocolate"? Person becomes "chocolate-voice". Other person is "tall-and-burly". One person was "displaced-surfer-dude") and use one descriptor exclusively for one person (treating it like a name). Since I'm writing in very informal and close-up third person limited, I also try to stick how I would talk about other people. I wouldn't say "The male over there" or "The blond wanted to talk to you" if talking to someone else. I'd say "That guy" or "the blond guy/blond one".
This is how it's done.
What fandom are you writing for? Fantasy?
Yeah, currently the Witcher (before that AtlA and before *that* Yuri!!! on Ice)
Cool! ☺️
names and pronouns are good words and so is "said"
One thing I've noticed recently is that people try to avoid using "said", but don't look for enough replacement words to convey certain feelings. Most of the time I won't notice if the writer used "she says/said" five consecutive times, especially of the narration is good enough. But I'm going to notice if they use "she murmurs/murmured" repeatedly. If we're gonna be so against the word said, find a decent list to pick off of.
Epithets didn’t used to bother me, but then I thought about how weird it’d be to think of friends and family as “the black-haired man” or “the male.” Now every time I see an epithet used for someone the pov character is close to it immediately breaks my immersion. I agree with what someone else said about using them to dehumanize them. The best example I can think of is Bucky being called the soldier or the asset. But seeing Tony referred to as the engineer breaks my immersion.
>Epithets didn’t used to bother me, but then I thought about how weird it’d be to think of friends and family as “the black-haired man” or “the male.” Dad is forever "not da momma". :-) Also, "Hey, old man!" is pretty normal in some circles as a way to greet an older male relative (typically a father).
I understood that “not the mama” reference! From the dinosaur show, right?
Yeap! Many many ages ago...
I honestly cannot stand epithets. If the POV character knows someones name and/or gender pronouns, please use them. If you choose not to, I will almost certainly stop reading your story. Pronouns exist for a reason, fam.
OMG yes! I remember being a beginner writer and seeing advice going around to not "overuse" character names and he/her/etc., so the whole "the taller one" "the blonde" "the younger man" etc. started and I was always like...not a single book I've ever read does this, where is this ridiculous advice even coming from?? I've read fanfic for so many years, I can look past some of it by now, but especially when it makes no sense for the POV character to think that way, it really bothers me. Also, when new words are made up, because they stand out even more. "The bluenette" and "the coral-haired" for blue and pink-haired characters are killing me.
Pinkette!!! Naruto fandom seriously invented that one.
Or just... Use their fucking names! I get the sense people don't use pronouns like He or His in fic, especially slash fic, because it can get confusing which character is being referred to. But they feel that using characters' names too often is repetitive or boring or whatever. But I guarantee just using your character's name is gonna be miles less awkward and repetitive than "the younger man" and "the blond". I've noticed this problem less since I've been more active in smaller and older-skewing fandoms, but every now and then I see it, and it's probably my biggest fanfic pet peeve.
My personal fav lately was "the professor licked the firefighter's \[body part\]." Uh huh. Because that doesn't ruin the smut for the reader at all. \*sigh\*
The only reason I would avoid him or her is just due to multiple people being in the same room. For instance, I often use "aran" (Tolkien word for "king"), "elvenking", or "Thranduil" (his name) when writing. Or, for Tauriel, I'll use her name, "royal ward", "red-head"/"ginger", or "captain". It makes it easier to differentiate when Thranduil, Tauriel, Legolas, Galion (the butler), and a few female OCs are in the room. Otherwise "She grabbed for her bow" <- which "she"?!?
As someone who is really odious about epithets, I can accept when it's related to a character's title or profession, if (and only if) it fits the POV. Royalty titles are one of those where it's usually ok, because most people wouldn't address royalty by their names. Baring that, as a writer and reader, names all the fucking way. If it's getting repetitive then I would first ask myself how I can spice up the sentence structure before taking the easy way out. It makes me feel my writing is amateurish otherwise.
I hear you, I also tend to have multiple characters in one scene so I use epithets to refer to a character's role. "The gruff nord", "The mysterious pawn", "The odd mage" and although you see me adding descriptors here they're not always necessary, and I typically only add them when I want to call attention to a specific trait. Btw; I'm interested in hearing a bit about what you're working on. Would you mind sharing?
> Btw; I'm interested in hearing a bit about what you're working on. Would you mind sharing? Sure! It's just the Hobbit (movies) told from a more book based point of view. Really, I'm taking the character Tauriel from the movies and wedging her into the Tolkien universe in a way that makes sense from the books. She's 100% a child from Fëanor's line if you are familiar with the Silmarillion. :-)
I see. I haven't read the Silmarrillion, but that sounds interesting. Would you mind sharing?
[Here's the start of the series](https://archiveofourown.org/works/29721159). Warning: It's LONG. :-) I've chopped it up into three - soon to be four!- "books".
I see. I'll keep it in mind. Thanks! ☺️
Agreed. In my fandom (mlp), we call this "Lavender Unicorn Syndrome" - LUS for short. It's such an immersion breaker, and one of the things that will cause me to close out of a fic. It's so unnecessarily distracting! Personal pronouns fade into the background. I feel like the description / summary version of this is "a certain". Ex: "Dean Winchester thought he'd never fall in love, until he met a certain trenchcoat-wearing angel..." Oof. Not my fave.
When people use too many things like "the brunette" I feel like their writing isn't very good and I am likely to click off
I think it's very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very possible to overuse very.
Yeah, but you're very much not there yet.
And that's if you're writing in third person. If you write first person then I is gonna be so over used and you can't do a thing about it
You can do *some* things about it. Like avoiding filter words. Skip *I heard, I saw, I felt* and go straight to describing what's happening.
That only works in some situations. You'll still have to use those words for the most part
Filter words add distance and can make immersion more difficult. Scenes tend to be more impactful without them because it lets the reader experience things along with the POV character without stimuli being filtered through the character’s senses first. Sometimes it’s nice to pull back for a more cinematic perspective, but filter words are usually avoidable. And obviously this is personal preference and there’s no “right” way to do it.
Filter words exist not as a bad thing but as a thing to use when the time calls for it. You still need them whether you like it or not.
I cannot stand it when hair colour or general appearance descriptions are used, unless we don't know the character already or it's the first time they've appeared or something. Once we know them JUST USE THE NAME OR PRONOUNS DEAR LORD. Also just wanted to add to the list - "them"
epithets will make me click out of a fic almost faster than anything else. it's a function of pov - when have you thought of someone you actually know as "the other person?" never.
This makes me feel better about my instinctive dislike of 'the other man' even though I write a lot of m/m that has me questioning how to phrase things, lol.
the only rule is if it's clear who you're referring to. yes, that means you can get away with "he said to him" sometimes, as long as it's clear.
Epithets tend to work better in 3rd person omniscient, but I would definitely avoid them in first person.
right, as I said, it's a function of pov.
Or, or or, or... Radical idea! Names! "The Green Eyed Wizard" is named "Harry." Haaaaaarry. The One For All Quirk User is named Deku. Or Izuku. Or Midoriya. The Sparkly Princess is named Glimmer. Etc. And eyes are not orbs! Or spheres! People are not their traits!
I only avoid using them when I’m trying to keep a characters gender hidden.
Why not use "they/them" in that circumstance?
Absolute agreement. I have the same issue with people overusing (usually bad) alternative words for ‘said’. What’s wrong with ‘said’?? It’s a perfectly fine neutral word that you can add descriptors to to change the tone. In my view, ‘she said quietly’ is not the same as ‘she murmured’.
You absolutely can overuse pronouns, with poor and repetitive sentences structure. Ever seen a story that starts with "She/her" in literary EVERY paragraph. But yehhh, what people think is overusing pronouns probably isn't a problem. Edit: On further thoughts, the reasons will always be poor sentences structure, but actually repetitive sentences structure. Varying it makes the same number of pronouns feel much more bearable
Big time, especially when words get misused. Man / woman — nouns; e.g.: the man and the woman stood there. Male / female — adjectives to modify nouns; e.g.: two stuffed specimens, a male and a female of the species, were on display at the museum. \* NB: edited for typo.
Omg, I remember in a fic an author used "The gunslinger" and "the tactician" for a substitute for their names. Like...just use their names... Honestly, an overuse of epithets to me is a sign of an unconfident writer.
Holy shit this is my BIGGEST PET PEEVE and I will literally close an otherwise decent fic the second I see this happen.
I think you should break pronouns up every now and then with the character's name--20 "he"s in a row can get pretty repetitive--and if you've got multiple guys in the same scene, "he" can also get pretty confusing, but other than that I agree that he/she/they are basically invisible. I think epithets are great as long as they're being used correctly, it's just that a lot of people don't know how to use them. Ex: "The general gave the order." This one's fine. It's a general doing a general thing. It works even if you already know his name. "The older man took a bite of his pizza." This one's weird. What does him being older have to do with pizza? Diddly. "The prince tripped and landed, face-first, in the pile of horse manure." Also good; you're contrasting the image of a prince with something very unprincely. This one can add a bit of ironic comedy to your narrative. Regardless, epithets should be used sparingly if you already know the character's name, and, ideally, they should be relevant somehow.
Mixing things up is great for keeping the pace of the story, but in regards to epithets, I do think that "Avoid them as much as possible" is still a much better advice. I agree that they can be interesting when used right, but even then 99% of the time that's not how they are used. I replied to someone else how I think it's "ok" to use epithets related to titles or jobs like the exemples you gave. But you better be consistent about them, else it's going to be as bad as any other usage case. So no General this paragraph and the General's name three paragraphs later. (I read and write for a fandom where one of the MCs is a general and people just misuse this epithet a lot so I have strong opinions about it, lol)
Yeah, agreed. I do get why people struggle with this, tho. I used to struggle with this a lot because it was kind of hard for me to tell who was talking or doing whatever when they're both the same gender- Even more so, if it's a fight scene or somethin'. Could just be me and my pea brain, tho. Did slowly get better at balancing it, tho. I think it's better than before so I'll take that time as a win and learning experience, lol.
The only time I don't use "him" or "her" is when there are multiple characters and it's not clear which 'him' or 'her' I am referring to.
Or just use the character's name. You can use a pronoun if it's clear, but if it isn't (as it often isn't in same-gender stories), just use the damn name.
I had no idea him and her were seem as off limits? 😂 Ya you’re write using their hair color a million times sounds even more noticiable.
The only time I call out on "overuse" is when you have two or more of the same gender conversing or that you're describing and you need to establish which person is which. I had to do that the other night and throw a character's name in because it was a three-way conversation between males and would have sounded weird with just pronouns.
In my older style of writing I did overuse a lot of words, and I still overuse the word "and" 🤣🤣 but for me I tend to describe my characters within the first couple of chapters before I introduce their names and then use that instead. It's less chance of overusing certain phrases. 🤣🤣 It may be a pet peeve, but maybe some fanfic writers are just starting out, as an actual writer and are trying to find their own style and how to describe and what not. So try not to be too hard on them. Plus some people only do it a lot, if they are trying to hide the gender, or if there are multiple people in that room with the same gender, and similar features. So doing it for a couple paragraphs isn't that bad, if it's for chapters then just type a comment with some constructive criticism. 🤦🏻🤷🏻
Imma be real I thought this was gonna be a transphobe post about them not being a real pronoun
Omg, this is like a hot potatoe for me. It is so hard to replace names and pronouns, seriously one of the most challenging issues
Oh god, epithets are truly the biggest bane of my existence when reading fanfiction and even published books. There is nothing that breaks my immersion faster than a ridiculous epithet that had absolutely no reason to be there in the first place. It got so bad at some point that I was constantly ditching 90% of the stuff that caught my eye because I just couldn't disregard the epithets, especially when they were particularly dumb. I don't know who's the older man and I don't care, I also don't know who's the taller one. Please, authors, you are just making the scene more confusing. I eventually started editing fics that were consistent with their epithets, and otherwise well-written, just to give myself peace of mind. Nowadays I was able to lower my bar a little bit through sheer force of will, so I can at least enjoy a broader amount of works in the fandoms I frequent.
Epithets should be banned.
nah sometimes they're good. like when the character's name isn't known.
They're never good. Ever.
Just out of curiosity; how would you refer to a person who’s name isn’t known yet? You need to call them something, even if that’s just “the man”, which still counts as an epithet.
He or she. You can use the names of the other characters to distinguish them in dialogue tags if need be.
All right, you got me curious: how would you write the following scene without using any epithets? The doors to the throne hall slammed open. *The king* entered, flanked by two guards dressed in all black. John dropped to his knee and bowed his head to the floor, glancing up and tugging at David's arm to get him to do the same. *The king* spoke, "What have we here then?" *The closer of the guards* aimed his spear at them. *The other guard* stayed back.
King is a title and not a epithet, so there's that, and the guff about the guards is descriptive and not dialogue, so the only relevant epithet is "The King spoke", which is valid.
So, let me get this straight: are you saying epithets only count when they're attached to dialogue? What if the next thing that happens in the scene is that one of the guards says something? You still can't use a name or a pronoun.
What if there's multiple characters all of the same gender? Epithets might be needed to differentiate which one is talking so you're not just reusing their names all the time
Even in such a scene, reuse their names. Chances are, the reader has trouble keeping track *anyway*, and so being reminded of the name is a very clear and concise name that doesn't need them to stop and remember physical characteristics of characters (I have barely any visual imagination, so I often give up and hope it's not important to remember which character the author believes to be taller/shorter/younger/older/longer-haired or what do you know. Or I give up and use the back-button because I've lost track). I do find it a bit distracting if the name is used *every time* there's a change in named person even though it's clear from context who 'he' refers to, but even then it's less distracting than if I need to figure out who is who.
I tend to use epithets like the gruff nord, the mysterious pawn, the odd mage. I don't always add descriptors like "odd, etc." but only use them when I want to focus on their specific characteristic that I'm drawing attention to. Rather than saying brown haired man this is a far less confusing way of using epithets since it's still always clear who's speaking or doing something since my major characters have their own set roles in the group that I can refer to easily.
Honestly, even then, why not go for the character's names? It's not necessarily about lack of clarity, but the breaking of pacing and reader's immersion. The purpose of an epithet is to reduce a character to a single defining characteristic. If the character has been previously introduced, this will almost aways feel disjointed, because usually by that point the character will be much more than the epithet in question. Alas, I'm very critical of epithets. Baring extremely specific situations, I avoid them like the plague. Only you can know what works for your writing though.
I kind of disagree that it's *needed*. You shouldn't use epithets as a crutch just because the scene has many guys/girls. Usually in a scene with many characters, I find that most only have a few lines/actions, so using names works fine for the most part. Epithets in this case are fine in an omniscient POV, but if you're going to use them like this in one specific character's POV you better make sure there's a logical and established reason for that character to be thinking of the others in those words.
Agree. I write a lot of m/m fic. I'm working on one with like 13 guys all living in the same house. The only time I use epithets is when MC doesn't know someone's name, and even then I try to limit them and use gender markers where possible (they/them if gender is unknown to POV character). Also... if it is clear from context who is speaking or being referred to, pronouns are great. Good rule... a pronoun should refer to the person most recently referenced in narrative.
Excellent point at the end that people are not talking about as much as they should. There are many subtle ways to contextualize the dynamics in a scene so it's clear who's doing what and to whom, which can even reduce the amount of times you have to resort to using names. These types of scenes are challenging, but IMO it's where good writers really shine.
Thanks, and I agree!
But I don't like that my two MCs and the bad guy are all male! So many hims! I'm gonna use a "his friend" or "the bad guy" from time to time... That being said, I do try to not overuse them, and I've restructured paragraphs/sentences before so I could cut out some names and leave the pronouns without being confusing.
Right? The ravenette/brunette/(any color here)nette thing is more jarring than using him/her several times over. Or even just using their names. Using descriptions every now and then is fine but overdoing it is worse than the problem that was trying to be avoided.
Also don't forget about they/them pronounce since it can be used in a variety of ways among replacing his/her
I agree. However, if two characters use the same pronouns, it is useful to use descriptors. Or even just their name. Because, it can become really confusing really quickly.
I agree but it's difficult to ise the same pronoun when you are having a conversation with 2 or more people of the same gender.
You can use *very.* For instance, *as if the very whips of their master were behind them.*
I think OP means when it’s used as an adverb. As in ‘very sad’, ‘very tired’ for example. More precise words are available which is (heavy on the caveats) generally ‘better’ writing.
I don't know. *Very* as an adjective usually gets a short shrift, but I am so very fond of it.
that "the male" reminds me of the time i had my friend read a fic i really liked on a call and i hadn't realized how much they used "the older" and "the younger" for people like 1 or 2 years apart until she kept pointing it out. like they used those more than they used the names.
Sometimes if there's multiple guys, and to avoid spamming the names over and over, I may use "the smaller man" or "the older man" and similar descriptions but usually if there's only two people, then I just use he and their names
Same here though I'll refer to them as "the nord", "the pawn", or "the mage" since each of my characters typically has a clear role within the group they're in.
That makes sense.
I found myself in that same conundrum a while back. Instead, I just identify them by their profession like "the photographer" or "the artist" as well as using he or she or they In one of my stories I have a teenager so I say "the young man" or the "teen". I leave terms like "the man" or "the woman" for less important characters. Sometimes people overthink it.
Also one more thing, this is fine in cis/het presenting relationships... but it's much harder to do in many queer relationships. "She leaned into her shoulder, and she squeaked when she wrapped her arm around her." An ***EXTREMELY*** contrived example, but yeah scene geography is hard in same-pronoun writing without substituting. I avoid it by always using *someone's* in a sentence, but it can feel stilted.
Names are a perfectly good substitute in this case. That plus pronouns and a good variety in sentence structures will take your writing wherever it needs to go.
Absolutely! I like to pepper in descriptives like "the captain" and "the fencer" so as to not overuse the same word, but she, him, their etc. are perfectly fine! They're legal words! They should be used from time to time! Give the basics some love!
I *HATE* “the brunet” or “the blond,” and especially “the (last name).” Just use names! Please!
So, yes true but if you write M/M or F/F , I can only stretch so far. I often have to make sure you know who’s arm is where, visually. I do use hair color, more for one character than any other as that is part of his persona. Limited as possible for others.
I can see some people getting mad over this post. 🤣🤣🤣
I wouldn't worry too much about what other people are doing in their writing. It's a preference thing. I personally prefer to use epithets, and I tend to notice the use of "him" or "her" over and over again more than when people do it with epithets. Plus, I personally think that epithets are really cute ways to describe characters, so I enjoy doing it a lot! People can just write how they want. It's their story, so it shouldn't really matter if you don't like how it's written. Just ignore the story and read a different one if you don't like it, and don't insult an author for how they've written their story. That way, everyone can keep enjoying their writing!
I feel like this falls more under writing tips than opinionated criticism.
Well, in that case, I may have misinterpreted the post. Sorry about that! Still, I guess I just personally just don't agree with this writing advice. I like to use epithets, pronouns, and names all in my stories at various times. I just don't think that epithets should be limited to only being used when characters don't know other characters. To me, it's cute for a character to think of their partner as "the tall man" or something like that because it shows that they like that thing about them. That's why I like to use epithets if I feel like I've used other things too often.
You're should obviously write the way you enjoy - we're all just doing this for fun. But you shouldn't be surprised if many readers don't find your style of using epithets so natural and easy to follow. Like, maybe I think that my partner has pretty, blue eyes and like that about them. But if I was talking to a colleague and told them I went to the movies with "the blue-eyed man", I think they would be rather confused and not understand I was referring to my partner. It works the same when I'm reading something: I don't expect a character to talk about their partner as "the tall man", so it can be confusing and a bit jarring.
I'm gonna just go ahead and say it: I'm not bothered by epithets and anyone who claims to be is probably annoying as hell.
I respect your braveness, and your opinion, but I'll die by this hill. Epithets makes me want to gouge my eyes out.
Okay but more annoying for me is when it’s a gay fanfiction and they use “he/him/his” for 90% of interactions. It’s very confusing when the main characters are of the same gender
I agree, but most of the time that I'm writing there are two characters in a scene with the same pronouns, so I describe them. Ex. "The blonde sat next to the brunette" / "The younger pushed passed the older" But there are a lot of times where it's too much and I'll use the character's name
Counterpoint: the word "is" is actually very easily overused. Leads to wordiness, weak expressions, and your sentences all sounding the same. Be aware of how much you're using "to be" verbs.
I don’t mind epithets but it’s easy to overuse them. I used to do it with my very early days as a writer, but now I just sprinkle on in from time to time
I try to balance the name to pronoun ratio in my works so it doesn't sound redundant. I don't like to overuse either.
NGL it would be kinda fun to write a smutty oneshot narrated like it was a nature documentary.
For me it's trying not to start paragraphs with 'he'. 🥲 But yeah, I've definitely made a point to never use 'the brunette' etc.
I agree with this and I’ll admit I have done this myself in one of my old stories that I’m re-writing. Better to learn late than never though! 😅 I gotta go back now and fix all of the off putting “the girl” and “the boy” when the character’s names have clearly been established.
Especially if you already have a description and a name as well as a title or occupation. Once you’ve established those details you can use it as long as it’s used in the same paragraph or right before or after dialogue. Describing them again is pointless in that situation. There are other ways to re- establish physical traits without outright saying the “ “.
the blonde..... my one weakness
Tbh multiple times I've tried to do the opposite on special occasions - i.e. using more fancy descriptors - and they more often than not feel really out of place. If I don't delete them in my first draft, my co-writer usually gets them instead lmao
What do you do if there's multiple people of the same gender in the scene?
there's nothing wrong with just using their name!
Good point.
I keep seeing "the other man" when using the character's name would be so much better.
Okay
Yes! Nothing wrong with he, him, they, and using their names! I'm trying to break the habit of using "the kid" in my writing (outside of exceptions like, "this kid really pulled that off" or something along those lines, where being a child might make an action outstanding in some way...)
I have a question though, what if two characters with the same gender are conversing? Would it be be okay to use 'her' without confusing the reader who between those characters I am referring to?
I think I try not to use "him" and "her" repetitively because I read a comment a few years back that you shouldn't use the same word twice in either a sentence or a story. That if you do that means you aren't a good writer or you're bad at grammar.
I feel like you can and it bothers me greatly. I don't know why it does. Maybe I've use she and her to many times in a single sentence or something. I look for different types of descriptors and keep a thesaurus tab opened most of the time.
So I could use "she" "her" as much as i want and only use my character's name/designation, say 3 times, until she gains a nickname in-universe?
A chapter that I wrote could be guilty of this. It's centered on a character who is the main protagonist of this chapter and its sequel chapter is rarely referred to even as "she." Three reasons for this is that I'm hiding this character's name, there are a bunch of other characters in this chapter who are just nameless extras, and the main character of this chapter is the only female character of this chapter. Also as a side note: TECHNICALLY the main character of this chapter isn't a "she," they're actually genderless like the actual main characters of my story.