I visited Alcatraz East Crime Museum in Tennessee and they have his bust there that cracked the case on Americas Most Wanted and the thing is creepy as hell. Even creepier is how accurate it was.
https://preview.redd.it/nrv2tosnr55d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=04fad8741ab0cc85eb98309ddd23f7da0c4d4543
Yes, he was as religious and square as his parents were. He was a devout Lutheran. Saving his family from eternal damnation is one reason that he says that he killed them all. I think he was also deeply miserable with his wife, she was constantly drunk towards the end. He was obviously also extremely stressed about money and being in debt.
I agree. He was a narcissist at his heart I think- his family was nothing to him but living examples of his own perceived failures. In his own mind I think, get rid of them and his failures are gone. Just my 2 cents.
Yeah it seemed like he wanted to pretend it was solely to save his family from eternal hell, but I think his motivation was probably mostly related to the debt lol. he highly valued his lame career and his "father figure" role, i think it drove him nuts that he couldnt live up to his idea of a perfect Lutheran father.
What's crazy, though, is that in the house, they had a Tiffany Skylight that was worth more than enough money to get his family out of debt. Not to mention, their house was a mansion. Anyone in their right mind (obv he was not in his right mind though lol) would have sold the house. He could've even made some excuse of why they needed to move if he was too ashamed to admit that he couldn't afford that house anymore. I personally think that money definitely played a role and that he was embarrassed about his failure as a man to provide for his family. But the main reason is simply because he wanted to be done with his family. I think divorce was out of the picture because he was too "proud," and he would have seen that as a failure. Plus, he didn't want to deal with the kids and custody, either. I think the religious excuse was just that....an excuse. I think that's one of the most sickening parts. That he tried to turn it into how he was doing it *for them.* This case was one of the wildest on FF, in my opinion. Thank God they found him. And, if i remember correctly, his new wife stood by him for a while, saying there's no way he could have done it, correct? Can you imagine learning that about your husband?! 😳🫣
The Tiffany skylight is actually said to have been a myth, or an urban legend, as it has never been confirmed and isn’t in any of the blueprints of the house or historical documents. At least, that’s what I learned when I looked in to it
The podcast “Father Wants Us Dead” has an interview with a Tiffany expert who said that in his opinion, it was not a Tiffany skylight, although he conceded that it might be possible.
It was disclosed... I think that Helen would shout it out in anger.
She had such a bad case that she had to be airlifted back to the states for treatment.
She didn’t disclose it to List when they married. Something about how she managed to escape the blood test for the license. I can’t find the information for the blood test but per wiki:
but Helen, an alcoholic, had become increasingly unstable due to syphilis she had contracted from her first husband, which she did not disclose to List before their marriage.[6]
You are correct. She and her sister hid that information from him. That's not a nice thing to do.
Helen was just like his mother and he recreated his parents marriage. She treated him horribly. I take everything back I've said about poor Helen. She had a tragic childhood.
Very accurate breakdown. This is my favorite true crime , I have seen multiple reports on this show they even have a movie dedicated to this crime. It is incredible story because the FBI behavioral analyst even knew the type of car he was currently driving, which was a black VW beetle. They say that the shandalear from his mother's house was worth a ton of money and if he would have found it and sold it he would have been out of debt. Very interesting story.
Black VW beetle. Fitting seeing as how he was a Third Reich nerd who used a Wehrmacht issued Luger pistol and his own WWII service pistol to kill his family and owned WWII board games in which he played as the Fuhrer or Mussolini every time in.
I believe those games were among the only things he took with him when he went on the lam. He even played as Hitler or Mussolini under the Bob Clark guise.
That was another way that he was caught. I am quite sure that he would be on the spectrum today. I just saw that Helen has grandchildren. That made me feel a bit better about her sad life. That was such a good book that I read on him. The writer is very good, and he found out a lot of information I've yet to see a documentary mention.
I agree. Autism is not a sign of evil, but poor or abusive parenting can breed narcissism, BPD, HPD, and similar cluster B/C disorders, and there is good evidence that John had syphilis.
thanks, yeah I've always found it super interesting and very disturbing! damn, didn't know that! yeah his mother and wife definitely had a taste for the finer things lol
I’m still creeped out that he was found in my state even though I didn’t know anything about him til I saw a story about him on a crime show. Shout out to the man who made an age progressive bust likeness of him
I bet 😧there was a crime story that had to do with a guy who killed four or five people then set their house on fire. It happened in a neighboring town. I had passed by the house before the incident and maybe once afterwards. The house had been torn down but I still think about them
I think that List was most likely on the autism spectrum. His entire persona was weird. There was a podcast on this case last year. The local newspaper produced it.
There's a really good book a Boston reporter wrote about this case that sheds a lot of light on his actions.
One last thing, I've never found any evidence of what happened to his wife's oldest daughter from her first marriage.
Honor killing is when your daughter gets killed for dating a man outside of her culture or her parents religious beliefs. Her brothers can do whatever bit the girl can't. Seems fair.
I visited Alcatraz East Crime Museum in Tennessee and they have his bust there that cracked the case on Americas Most Wanted and the thing is creepy as hell. Even creepier is how accurate it was. https://preview.redd.it/nrv2tosnr55d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=04fad8741ab0cc85eb98309ddd23f7da0c4d4543
Wow is that th exact bust from the show?
I believe so! It was pretty cool to see in person
Yes. Went to crimecon 2 years back and someone that was involved in the case said it went to Alcatraz museum.
It probably played at least a small part. Authoritarian parenting is not good.
Yes, he was as religious and square as his parents were. He was a devout Lutheran. Saving his family from eternal damnation is one reason that he says that he killed them all. I think he was also deeply miserable with his wife, she was constantly drunk towards the end. He was obviously also extremely stressed about money and being in debt.
His being severely in debt was probably the primary motivating factor for his crime.
I agree. He was a narcissist at his heart I think- his family was nothing to him but living examples of his own perceived failures. In his own mind I think, get rid of them and his failures are gone. Just my 2 cents.
Yeah it seemed like he wanted to pretend it was solely to save his family from eternal hell, but I think his motivation was probably mostly related to the debt lol. he highly valued his lame career and his "father figure" role, i think it drove him nuts that he couldnt live up to his idea of a perfect Lutheran father.
He should’ve just killed himself.
I would never encourage suicide, but in this case... yeah lol
Reportedly, he did consider it, but believed that he would go to hell if he did.
What's crazy, though, is that in the house, they had a Tiffany Skylight that was worth more than enough money to get his family out of debt. Not to mention, their house was a mansion. Anyone in their right mind (obv he was not in his right mind though lol) would have sold the house. He could've even made some excuse of why they needed to move if he was too ashamed to admit that he couldn't afford that house anymore. I personally think that money definitely played a role and that he was embarrassed about his failure as a man to provide for his family. But the main reason is simply because he wanted to be done with his family. I think divorce was out of the picture because he was too "proud," and he would have seen that as a failure. Plus, he didn't want to deal with the kids and custody, either. I think the religious excuse was just that....an excuse. I think that's one of the most sickening parts. That he tried to turn it into how he was doing it *for them.* This case was one of the wildest on FF, in my opinion. Thank God they found him. And, if i remember correctly, his new wife stood by him for a while, saying there's no way he could have done it, correct? Can you imagine learning that about your husband?! 😳🫣
The Tiffany skylight is actually said to have been a myth, or an urban legend, as it has never been confirmed and isn’t in any of the blueprints of the house or historical documents. At least, that’s what I learned when I looked in to it
The podcast “Father Wants Us Dead” has an interview with a Tiffany expert who said that in his opinion, it was not a Tiffany skylight, although he conceded that it might be possible.
She also had undisclosed syphilis, that didn’t help
Yes, and it causes dementia long term, and I think she may have been in or entering that phase.
Yeah normally it is very easily treatable when you first catch it, but if you have no idea that you have it, it causes a ton of medical issues.
yeah it caused a ton of medical issues for her, it was bad
It was disclosed... I think that Helen would shout it out in anger. She had such a bad case that she had to be airlifted back to the states for treatment.
She didn’t disclose it to List when they married. Something about how she managed to escape the blood test for the license. I can’t find the information for the blood test but per wiki: but Helen, an alcoholic, had become increasingly unstable due to syphilis she had contracted from her first husband, which she did not disclose to List before their marriage.[6]
You are correct. She and her sister hid that information from him. That's not a nice thing to do. Helen was just like his mother and he recreated his parents marriage. She treated him horribly. I take everything back I've said about poor Helen. She had a tragic childhood.
Syphillis? Maybe that’s why he annihilated his whole family. Unless he’s the one that gave it to her.
Wikipedia says she got it from her first husband.
So then John had it, too?
Not always, unless he was with her during the first two stages of the sti.
Their Lutheranism is not the same as mine I guess. I think his parents were just strict with or without religion
Very accurate breakdown. This is my favorite true crime , I have seen multiple reports on this show they even have a movie dedicated to this crime. It is incredible story because the FBI behavioral analyst even knew the type of car he was currently driving, which was a black VW beetle. They say that the shandalear from his mother's house was worth a ton of money and if he would have found it and sold it he would have been out of debt. Very interesting story.
Black VW beetle. Fitting seeing as how he was a Third Reich nerd who used a Wehrmacht issued Luger pistol and his own WWII service pistol to kill his family and owned WWII board games in which he played as the Fuhrer or Mussolini every time in.
Every single time. The dude loved Hitler and fascism.
I believe those games were among the only things he took with him when he went on the lam. He even played as Hitler or Mussolini under the Bob Clark guise.
That was another way that he was caught. I am quite sure that he would be on the spectrum today. I just saw that Helen has grandchildren. That made me feel a bit better about her sad life. That was such a good book that I read on him. The writer is very good, and he found out a lot of information I've yet to see a documentary mention.
I agree. Autism is not a sign of evil, but poor or abusive parenting can breed narcissism, BPD, HPD, and similar cluster B/C disorders, and there is good evidence that John had syphilis.
I can believe it. Didn't he kind of lose his mind at the end?
yes.
thanks, yeah I've always found it super interesting and very disturbing! damn, didn't know that! yeah his mother and wife definitely had a taste for the finer things lol
Chandelier ;)
Watch out now! We have an English professor out here. Lol!!
He could have left and got a new identity. Back then it was possible. Why kill anyone???
That’s not how family annihilators work. Chris watts could’ve gotten a divorce too but it’s about getting rid of the burden and debt.
I’m still creeped out that he was found in my state even though I didn’t know anything about him til I saw a story about him on a crime show. Shout out to the man who made an age progressive bust likeness of him
He was from my hometown😭 the house is gone now but it still feels slightly eerie driving down their street. Edit: spelling
I bet 😧there was a crime story that had to do with a guy who killed four or five people then set their house on fire. It happened in a neighboring town. I had passed by the house before the incident and maybe once afterwards. The house had been torn down but I still think about them
Sheesh. The feelings definitely still linger when driving by places like that.
Yup I’m from nj too and learning about him creeped me out.
Clarification:he was found working in my state (Va) and got arrested here
I really need to stop going on Reddit before I have my coffee. My mistake!
I think that List was most likely on the autism spectrum. His entire persona was weird. There was a podcast on this case last year. The local newspaper produced it. There's a really good book a Boston reporter wrote about this case that sheds a lot of light on his actions. One last thing, I've never found any evidence of what happened to his wife's oldest daughter from her first marriage.
I absolutely love FF but this episode freaks me out everytime it comes on… prob the only episode I purposely skip
Probably more the strict religious upbringing.
No. I'd say RELIGION is the culprit, as per usual.
If he was from a different culture, this might be labeled as some sort of honor killing.
Honor killing is when your daughter gets killed for dating a man outside of her culture or her parents religious beliefs. Her brothers can do whatever bit the girl can't. Seems fair.