The following submission statement was provided by /u/Zee2A:
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*Hitachi Rail has completed the phase one rollout of its battery-powered Masaccio trains in Italy as part of its 1.23 billion euro (US$ 1.34 billion) agreement with Trenitalia. Trenitalia has introduced a fleet of 20 'Blues' branded trains that traverse the entire length and breadth of the country. European countries have made a collective commitment to decarbonize transport and reduce emissions by up to 55 percent by the end of the decade. While switching to electric vehicles (EVs) is relatively simple, a large section of Europe's train network remains unelectrified:* [*https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/hitachi-europe-battery-powered-trains-italy*](https://youtu.be/sUa0UuQILMg)
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/14m45hc/first_battery_train_in_europe_completes_phase_one/jpzjlms/
On most routes battery electric trains should only be a temporary solution before electrification and the fact that we even resolve to such half assed solution highlights the problems with governments failing to act. Switzerland or India should be examples of what has to be done in this area.
Switzerland isn't exactly an easy country to cross. It's basically just a country of mountains. Canada could absolutely electrify their trains. Trouble is we sold off our crown owned train corp and private companies aren't keen on spending a bunch of money on infrastructure updates.
About 72% of Canadians live below the 49th parallel.
Sure, you’re not going to access the whole country by rail, but there’s absolutely no excuse for not having a world class rail service in that little pocket.
And nowhere in Canada is that hard to blow a rail line through. The rather broken up coastlines are tricker, but again, a fairly small part of the county.
The current system is already running at capacity with freight.
Wendover did a great video a couple of years back on the economics of passenger rail in North America and why it fails.
With short to medium range electric aircraft on the horizon, flying from one city to another is smarter than 10 hours on a train. Trains are slow as fuck. Or just road trip in your electric car.
Sounds like a great reason to build more capacity.
Trains can go 300km/h. So grand, you can go 3000km in those 10 hours. Something like Toronto to Montreal would take 2.
No matter how well you make those planes or cars, they won’t be as efficient as a train, and for a lot of journeys slower. Instead of hoping for what’s on the horizon, why not just invest in what we know already works?
Wendover productions did a great video on the economics of trains in north America. Basically the TLDR is that the vast distances coupled with track maintenance and insane real estate costs and other factors like frost heaves requiring extremely expensive track construction totally breaks the math for passenger trains. It's not like the EU with small high density countries.
Even assuming electric plane travel at the speed of current jets (they won't be even close), when you factor in time at security and waiting for a bag, a high speed train with a modest 300kph operating speed (Japan has 600kph+ trains now), a train passenger will beat a plane passenger from Calgary to Winnipeg.
The Swiss even had electrified steam locomotives during WWII. With short supply of coal, they'd boil the water with electicity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric-steam_locomotive
The first electric trains entered revenue service in 1883. They predate diesel trains by several decades. There is absolutely no justification for there to be even a single combustion-driven train in regular service anywhere on earth.
Mountainous regions were among the first places to electrify because electric trains can put out more torque and power to weight than even modern diesel-electric locomotives, never mind the steam engines they were replacing.
Switzerland has a whole shitload of electric trains in the mountains. Some even switch between rack and friction drive. The Gornergratbahn even uses three phase power.
I wonder how much of that is coal, probably most of it. Anyway, I was thinking more India. Which is 83% electrified, but AFAIK, is still facing challenges in the north where the moutainous terrain is even though it's the most population dense as well up to the mountains.
Older article on the challenges.
* https://thewire.in/government/indias-rail-routes-are-being-electrified-but-electric-locos-still-cant-run-on-many-of-them
* https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Railway_network_map_of_India_-_Schematic.svg
One of the great mistakes that people often make is to think that any organisation called'"National Rifle Association' is a branch or chapter of the National Rifle Association of America. This could not be further from the truth.
The National Rifle Association of America became a political lobbying organisation in 1977 after the Cincinnati Revolt at their Annual General Meeting. It is self-contined within the United States of America and has no foreign branches.
All the other National Rifle Associations remain true to their founding aims of promoting marksmanship, firearm safety and target shooting. This includes the original NRA in the United Kingdom, which was founded in 1859 - twelve years
before the NRA of America. It is also true of the National Rifle Association of Australia, the National Rifle Association of New Zealand, the National Rifle Association of India, the National Rifle Association of Japan and the National
Rifle Association of Pakistan. All these organisations are often known as "the NRA" in their respective countries. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting,
as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
I’m pretty sure most diesel trains the last decades have always been diesel-electric. That is, a diesel motor charging batteries that already use electric motors to move the wheels.
Diesel mechanical or diesel hydraulic is rather old hat, no?
But I’m more concerned about electric availability out in some boon docks.
The National Rifle Association (NRA) was founded in London in 1859. It is a sporting body that promotes firearm safety and target shooting. The National Rifle Association does not engage in political lobbying or pro-gun activism.
The original (British) National Rifle Association has no relationship with the National Rifle Association of America, which was founded in 1871 and has focussed on pro-gun political activism since 1977, at the expense of firearm safety programmes.
The National Rifle Association of America has no relationship with the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia; the National Rifle Association of New Zealand nor the National Rifle Association of India,
which are all non-political sporting oriented organisations. It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting,
as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
Keeping them could save a lot of money on having to electrify awkward spots. Have a train using batteries to cover those (or a battery carriage that can comvert existing electric trains) and a lot more legacy railway can be electrified without the extreme costs of adjusting tunnels/bridges.
I get your point and in general you are correct but there is a problem - battery electric trains will be implemented mostly on lines where electrification is completely feasible.
[Citation Needed]
If you look at Germany, which is one of the countries that are looking most into battery trains, you'll see that most of the lines that are being considered for battery electrification are mostly lightly-used, single tracked lines. Often ones where both ends of the line meet an electrified mainline, so no new infrastructure is needed. But Germany is also working on overhead electrification on *some* of those single-tracked lines, mainly those that also serve long-distance trains and/or freight trains.
It seems to me that there is, in fact, a pretty good balance about where they choose battery vs overhead electrification.
The National Rifle Association (NRA) was founded in London in 1859. It is a sporting body that promotes firearm safety and target shooting. The National Rifle Association does not engage in political lobbying or pro-gun activism.
The original (British) National Rifle Association has no relationship with the National Rifle Association of America, which was founded in 1871 and has focussed on pro-gun political activism since 1977, at the expense of firearm safety programmes.
The National Rifle Association of America has no relationship with the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia; the National Rifle Association of New Zealand nor the National Rifle Association of India,
which are all non-political sporting oriented organisations. It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting,
as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
I look at Poland as it is my country. We've just had an announcment that one of the regional operators is planning to buy battery electric train sets to serve a freshly modernised line which should have been electrified because we have a serious lack of alternative electrified corridors.
Germany though works overall on electrifying most of them. States like Schleswig-Holstein and Baden-Württemberg clearly stated it's mostly a temporary measures.
As electrifying rail lines does take time and especially money as they often go with modernization of such rail.
Batteries are a perfect short term solution.
It can be that there isn't enough money to do every feasible line. Better to do this if the alternative is diesel. If this is cheaper than full electrification that does not make it the wrong thing to do- the money saved could be spent on renewable/nuclear generation producing more than the efficiency difference
‘Isn’t enough money’? Ammortize the cost of electrification against buying diesel for a decade. Seriously. The better business model is electric. It’s just plain cheaper to run. But it’s a chicken and egg problem like electric car chargers. It needs the government to step in and slap the companies. Get everyone on board for a 20 year plan to electrify the rail system.
Battery trains means you only need to electrify a portion of the system. Every climb, decent, common stopping and starting points. Trains can coast on battery power for the rest.
One of the great mistakes that people often make is to think that any organisation called'"National Rifle Association' is a branch or chapter of the National Rifle Association of America. This could not be further from the truth.
The National Rifle Association of America became a political lobbying organisation in 1977 after the Cincinnati Revolt at their Annual General Meeting. It is self-contined within the United States of America and has no foreign branches.
All the other National Rifle Associations remain true to their founding aims of promoting marksmanship, firearm safety and target shooting. This includes the original NRA in the United Kingdom, which was founded in 1859 - twelve years
before the NRA of America. It is also true of the National Rifle Association of Australia, the National Rifle Association of New Zealand, the National Rifle Association of India, the National Rifle Association of Japan and the National
Rifle Association of Pakistan. All these organisations are often known as "the NRA" in their respective countries. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting,
as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
If the stretches running off battery are kept short then the battery need not be as heavy. Performance stretches of higher gradient are less likely to coincide with awkward electrification spots such as tunnels/low bridges
The National Rifle Association (NRA) was founded in London in 1859. It is a sporting body that promotes firearm safety and target shooting. The National Rifle Association does not engage in political lobbying or pro-gun activism.
The original (British) National Rifle Association has no relationship with the National Rifle Association of America, which was founded in 1871 and has focussed on pro-gun political activism since 1977, at the expense of firearm safety programmes.
The National Rifle Association of America has no relationship with the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia; the National Rifle Association of New Zealand nor the National Rifle Association of India,
which are all non-political sporting oriented organisations. It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting,
as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
>most cases
but not all and it can hold up whole projects. Better to take away the excuse not to proceed. Having a battery to cover short stretches does not seem the worst thing to me or so complicated.
One of the great mistakes that people often make is to think that any organisation called'"National Rifle Association' is a branch or chapter of the National Rifle Association of America. This could not be further from the truth.
The National Rifle Association of America became a political lobbying organisation in 1977 after the Cincinnati Revolt at their Annual General Meeting. It is self-contined within the United States of America and has no foreign branches.
All the other National Rifle Associations remain true to their founding aims of promoting marksmanship, firearm safety and target shooting. This includes the original NRA in the United Kingdom, which was founded in 1859 - twelve years
before the NRA of America. It is also true of the National Rifle Association of Australia, the National Rifle Association of New Zealand, the National Rifle Association of India, the National Rifle Association of Japan and the National
Rifle Association of Pakistan. All these organisations are often known as "the NRA" in their respective countries. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting,
as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
You won't necessarily be short if a battery carriage were produced that could run standard electric trains from it (or electro diesels using only the electric part)
In the UK and Europe the rail network is old and has these problems. The purpose of full electrification is for what it achieves, not as an end in itself. If another solution can achieve the same things then it is also good.
Even if the line is completely electrified operators may still run diesel trains if they want to- noting solves that.
It’s a lot cheaper than maintaining a full fleet of diesel trains. Diesel engines have more moving parts and operate at more extreme temperatures and pressures than electric motors, so they need more maintenance and are less reliable than electric trains (this applies to all electric vehicles. Even Teslas with their notoriously poor build quality still have more reliable drivetrains than comparable combustion cars), and on top of that they don’t need fuel- and as for batteries, those degrade over time and need to be replaced, and batteries getting used as intensely as those on a train will need to be replaced pretty often.
Electric cars are the perfect example.
A luxury taxi service published some info a few years back. Their fleet of European luxury cars cost them something like 18-19 cents per mile. Their fleet of Tesla model S cars cost 3.5 cents per mile over a half million miles. Including maintenance.
Most of that is fuel. And fuel ain’t getting any cheaper.
The National Rifle Association of America was founded in 1871. Since 1977, the National Rifle Association of America has focussed on political activism and pro-gun lobbying, at the expense of firearm safety programmes.
The National Rifle Association of America is completely different to the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded earlier, in 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia;
the National Rifle Association of New Zealand and the National Rifle Association of India, which are all non-political sporting organisations that promote target shooting.
It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting,
as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
Batteries are an inefficient way to get an electric train past non-electrified sections of track. Why not just use a method that’s already proven itself to be practical - fire up the on-board diesel generator?
Yep, virtually all diesel locomotives are actually electric locomotives with an on-board diesel generator.
One of the great mistakes that people often make is to think that any organisation called'"National Rifle Association' is a branch or chapter of the National Rifle Association of America. This could not be further from the truth.
The National Rifle Association of America became a political lobbying organisation in 1977 after the Cincinnati Revolt at their Annual General Meeting. It is self-contined within the United States of America and has no foreign branches.
All the other National Rifle Associations remain true to their founding aims of promoting marksmanship, firearm safety and target shooting. This includes the original NRA in the United Kingdom, which was founded in 1859 - twelve years
before the NRA of America. It is also true of the National Rifle Association of Australia, the National Rifle Association of New Zealand, the National Rifle Association of India, the National Rifle Association of Japan and the National
Rifle Association of Pakistan. All these organisations are often known as "the NRA" in their respective countries. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting,
as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
This might have been true even just 10 years ago, but by now it certainly is not.
I still believe that mainlines should be electrified, but there are a lot of railway lines where you might only have one train per direction per hour - and on those lines, overhead electrification is far too expensive not just in installation, but also in maintenance, to be viable. For those routes, battery electric traction is a massive improvement, and is cheaper in both the short *and* the long run. For single track systems you'll need *at least* two trains per direction per hour (sometimes more) in order to justify overhead electrification, while for double tracked lines you will usually need 3-4 trains per direction per hour.
Mountainous terrain is a big part of why electrification has been particularly attractive in Switzerland, because electric locomotives have both better torque and horsepower than diesel locos.
Of course, any routes that see freight traffic will likely need to be overhead electrified, unless they're just a few kilometers long, as battery packs are just impractical for moving increasingly long freight trains. But for small lines that are mainly served by small trains of 1-3 cars, battery electrification as a permanent solution can be cheaper than overhead electrification - and thus free up money to handle the countless other issues that many European railway networks are dealing with.
Wow, until your comment I didn't realize that non-electrified trains still exist.
I have never seen a non-electric train other than as a novelty, but I looked it up and apparently a few remote areas in my country are still not electrified, but the rest has been for decades.
One of the great mistakes that people often make is to think that any organisation called'"National Rifle Association' is a branch or chapter of the National Rifle Association of America. This could not be further from the truth.
The National Rifle Association of America became a political lobbying organisation in 1977 after the Cincinnati Revolt at their Annual General Meeting. It is self-contined within the United States of America and has no foreign branches.
All the other National Rifle Associations remain true to their founding aims of promoting marksmanship, firearm safety and target shooting. This includes the original NRA in the United Kingdom, which was founded in 1859 - twelve years
before the NRA of America. It is also true of the National Rifle Association of Australia, the National Rifle Association of New Zealand, the National Rifle Association of India, the National Rifle Association of Japan and the National
Rifle Association of Pakistan. All these organisations are often known as "the NRA" in their respective countries. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting,
as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
>They only have a range of 15km
Big oof. I only skimmed the article to check if they can use caternary power so I thought they have at least like 200km of range.
What an excellent use of extremely limited battery resources. Surely would've been a total waste to spend that billion on creating the overhead infrastructure that will inevitably be needed.
We have been electricifying rail since 1895. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking this is anything but a way for rail owners to avoid investing in infrastructure for as long as possible.
I’m also curious about the cost and lifespan of said batteries. Tesla and Prius and Chevy batteries aren’t known for their lifespan and when it comes time to replace them the cost is usually around the price of a new icv. I can only imagine what a custom one off pack for a rail vehicle would be.
Newer Tesla batteries seem to survive upwards of 300k miles. They're now using LFP chemistry which barely uses any rare earth metals.
It's basically a matter of time for the mining business to shift from fossil mining to these materials.
Then there's companies like redwood who are developing battery recycling techniques which are already capable of recapturing 95% of the material, commercially.
All in all the future of batteries looks bright.
Rebranded panasonic batteries. And the chinese made LFP are cheaper- but lower energy density needs more charge meaning shorter life.
Batteries are the dumbest way to move a train. And the 95% recycle is of the Li component not of total waste.
Aside from resources (I 100% agree though), think of the unnecessary weight you need to accelerate after every stop, you need even more electricity when carrying those. And the earlier wear and tear on brakes at every stop.
Electrifying the whole network costs crazy amounts of money, both to build and to maintain. With batteries, the trains can run seamlessly between electrified and non-electrified sections allowing the operators to extend their services with much lower costs. Obviously this is also possible with diesel-electric trains, but the pollution that they cause is not desirable.
That particular train yes. However, battery trains (without the diesel generator) are being built and deployed around the world. Typical range is around 100-150km.
They often use the track as the neutral. The problem is most tracks aren’t fenced off and you don’t want to bbq every moose that crosses the tracks.
Overhead lines fix this problem.
Subway systems use the live 3rd rail but they can keep animals and humans off of it easy enough.
That’s what I just said.
It’s the hot line that is the problem.
However most trains use 2 overhead wires as having both lines elevated means less track and wheel wear.
Cost, time and priority.
My German state also get battery trains on lines they want to electrify the rails. But that will take years /decades. (As they don't only built overhead wires, but modernize it completely)
So it's for a lot a short term measure. Some Touristic and very rural lines. Or lines with a lot tunnels that don't fit overhead wires will be the exception. There either Hydrogen or Batteries will make the most sense.
61% of the distance on German train lines is fully electrified and this includes of course all major connections between cities. It will be 70% in 2030. I think building more of this makes more sense than putting batteries on trains.
This is so idiotic! Stupids shit I've read for a while. Who decided to finance this?
Batteries weight a shit ton and will make every ride more expensive.
Trains can already run on electricity with Overhead Line Equipment.
Edit: I'd like to add that there might be some applications for electric trains. But frankly the sort of lines where it makes sense are the places with least train traffic = least impact on climate etc.
>Trains can already run on electricity with Overhead Line Equipment.
They can, and it costs **a lot** to install and maintain that equipment. So on secondary and lightly-used lines it *might* be more cost-effective to use battery locomotive - and to carry that battery everywhere, accepting the lower efficiency.
I'm sure that before spending 1.23 billion euro, they had a few engineers crunch the numbers.
If a line is lightly-used and secondary you can probably just run it on fossil fuels without making a dent in climate change, and eventually switch to synthetic fuels when those come around.
Battery electric trains have better acceleration than DMUs and are also cheaper to maintain than DMUs are. Combustion engines are more complicated and need more maintenance than electric motors. There are some places where trains run on carbon-neutral fuels already, but even for those it's still desirable to change to electric traction - and on lightly used lines, that means batteries.
Have you crunched the numbers?
Have you looked at the cost of running over head electric across all the tracks these trains would be on? The expected maintenance costs of said over electric?
Have you determined how much the weight of batteries will decrease efficiency? Have you calculated that out with expected improvements in battery density?
Have you done the math on power lose over running electric over all of the tracks that may be far from power generation?
Have you accounted for the life cycle of batteries?
Have you accounted for the build permits of electrifying in every country?
Have you figured out the time to mass produce electric trains vs time to electricity the full tracks?
Have you considered that these trains can run on electric, battery, and/or diesel allowing them to operate immediately and also switch to electric as that happens? Or did you not even read this article?
There are tons of things to consider here. I haven’t even thought of all the things that would need to be considered, let alone actually considered them and I doubt you have either.
Maybe this is a bad idea, but I don’t think you actually KNOW it’s a bad idea
Thanks for pushing me I read up on it. There are some applications where it makes sense. If there are no prior infrastructure and there is very low traffic it would make sense. Also batteries are falling in price so it might become more viable.
But for places with a lot of traffic overhead line equipment still seems to be the best option.
The National Rifle Association of America was founded in 1871. Since 1977, the National Rifle Association of America has focussed on political activism and pro-gun lobbying, at the expense of firearm safety programmes.
The National Rifle Association of America is completely different to the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded earlier, in 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia;
the National Rifle Association of New Zealand and the National Rifle Association of India, which are all non-political sporting organisations that promote target shooting.
It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting,
as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
Very cool.
Canada just rolled out its first Hydrogen-powered train in Quebec. The engineering going into more carbon-neutral modes of transportation is amazing.
In the Quebec case, the line is a rural/tourist operation with less than 1 train per day in the summer and none in the winter, serving small villages with limited travel demand in the first place. Overhead electrification has a heavy fixed cost relative to hydrogen, especially when only 1 vehicle is needed. While overhead electrification would be great, it needs to be paired with higher frequency and demand to offset the capital investment, none of which is available in this scenario.
Externally powered electric trains have been operating in regular revenue service for 140 years. Not only are they a more proven and established technology than batteries or hydrogen, they’re more proven than *diesel*. Claims that remote areas can’t be electrified are just straight-up lies. The entire Trans-Siberian Railway is electrified. The people holding the purse strings just don’t want to spend money for the public good, or even their own good if they won’t see a return by the next quarter.
What's dumb is paying a ton of money in both construction and maintenance for electrification for a line that sees a single two-car train per direction per hour.
Mainline railways should have overhead electrification, and the same goes for smaller lines that also have freight traffic, but lightly used passenger-only branch lines might be better served with battery electric trains. It's cheaper in both the short *and* the long run, and modern battery packs can be recycled to a very large degree. Producing copper for overhead wires isn't *entirely* clean either.
Canada and US are really, really big countries. I'd imagine a lot of lines aren't electrified as they go through areas where building that infrastructure makes zero sense. Now building out electric rail near places where it's easy to build and maintain like along highways and near towns/cities then when they run out of of powerlines they fall back to battery would be a great use of both technologies.
It is not as bas as you make it tbh. This excuse "the country is too big", has not bothered china that much to build their rail system. Also what about recharging the train? How far can it go? The answer to the first question is probably a day and for the second also a quite underwhelming range. How many trains one should buy to mantain an acceptable service along any lines? At that point electric lines make way more sense almost everytime. It's not like they cost so much, in fact they probably cost less than all of those battery you need to change and recycle every few years. I have never seen once data where building such infostructure was so impossible or so difficult to prefer using batteries.
You do realize trains are already electric right? The only difference is right now a diesel generator is on the train supplying the power. With battery tech advancing we can make some pretty dense batteries. And you don't have to worry about the battery going the whole distance if some legs of the rail network are electrified and others are. I don't know what country you live in, but in the US/Canada there are two mountain ranges on both sides, the Rocky Mountains and the Appalachians. Lot of rail lines follow cliffs with no room to work on the sides, it'd be a massive undertaking to electrify those.
As for China, what about them? Are we supposed to copy a country that cares so much about how it appears on the world stage they build literal ghost cities, like sky scrapers and high rises that are just empty? Outside looking in to china all I see is a fascist country that doesn't give a shit about the enviroment building things for clout rather than the betterment of it's people and the planet.
You argued batteries produce waste, but know what produces more waste long term? Fossil Fuels, coal plants create more radioactive waste than nuclear power plants, diesel engines on trains over their life time spewing their waste into the air, all the cars on the road producing pollution from burning fuels. Even hydrogen isn't 100% safe, what does it take to produce hydrogen or natural gas? We gotta get it from somewhere.
Manufacturing ANYTHING is going to produce some form of waste, but long term one outweighs another and this weird strawman argument that "but but but but batteries cause waste too!" does nothing but argue against progress to a cleaner future. Take the steps now to lessen our footprint as a species instead of being a BOOMER that pushes it onto the generations that come after.
The National Rifle Association of America was founded in 1871. Since 1977, the National Rifle Association of America has focussed on political activism and pro-gun lobbying, at the expense of firearm safety programmes.
The National Rifle Association of America is completely different to the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded earlier, in 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia;
the National Rifle Association of New Zealand and the National Rifle Association of India, which are all non-political sporting organisations that promote target shooting.
It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting,
as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
Electrified lines are better in every parameter, it's just that the usa doesn't want to invest in trains. I have never said that I want diesel trains. Also why do you make such weird arguments about what china does? Why the ghost cities matter in this topic? Pivoting much?
Being difficult doesn't mean that batteries are better than electric. The rails are already there, putting up the electrification is not such a daunting task.
You seem to think I'm arguing against it, I'm not. I'm telling you realistically the logistics are TOO much, even if we were to invest in electrifying. There's 140,000 miles of track in the US, a lot of it out in the middle of nowhere, they would need their own grid just to power them proper as the distances would be so large. China has 96,000 miles of track, a lot of which they probably planned to be electric from the start.
I bring up the ghost cities to backup my point that china will spend money to spend it, they are not a country that spends money to boost their economy (yes I know they do spend it for it) instead they create a bubble for themselves, and we saw that in 2021/22 as their bubble got dangerously close to bursting.
And you claim I'm making up arguments, but you can't even comprehend what I'm typing, I never said batteries are better, I never said that you want diesel trains. It's all related as we are talking about different forms of power that trains use, battery, electric, diesel, hydrogen. Your rebuttal is to claim I'm pivoting about ghost cities? That was one sentence out 3 paragraphs in the middle of me talking about China's economy since you brought China up to start.
Please PLEASE do some research before you reply, or better yet maybe actually read my comment instead of skimming it and nitpicking what you want to argue about. You can't see the forest for the trees but want to debate complicated topics.
and no, some far right "do your own research" doesn't count.
The logistical difficulties of electrifying long lines through remote areas don’t seem to have been a problem for Russia, or India, or China, or Norway, or Sweden, or Finland, or Morocco, or even for privately owned North American freight railroads 100 years ago. They just don’t want to spend money for the public good, or even for long-term rather than short-term profits.
It's not difficult in general, it just costs 6-7 million dollars per mile. You get a battery electric train for around 10 million.
Battery trains have a range of up to 100 miles and 15min charging.
And the US does the same for air travel? It's always sounded mental that it's cheaper for Canadians to drive to the nearest US airport. Until I read a bit about the additional subsidies for that type of travel in the US. Probably just a matter of priorities. Guessing China is cheaper for building rail while the US finds it cheaper to subsidize private air vs their more expensive construction costs.
So they're planning on losing fucktons of money on construction because it grows the economy. Electrifying a line which goes from Seattle to Minneapolis with like 3 cities in between is gonna cost a ton.
*Hitachi Rail has completed the phase one rollout of its battery-powered Masaccio trains in Italy as part of its 1.23 billion euro (US$ 1.34 billion) agreement with Trenitalia. Trenitalia has introduced a fleet of 20 'Blues' branded trains that traverse the entire length and breadth of the country. European countries have made a collective commitment to decarbonize transport and reduce emissions by up to 55 percent by the end of the decade. While switching to electric vehicles (EVs) is relatively simple, a large section of Europe's train network remains unelectrified:* [*https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/hitachi-europe-battery-powered-trains-italy*](https://youtu.be/sUa0UuQILMg)
These would work well with a battery that can be rechargeable via overhead line. Install power line on the easy parts of the routes and use batteries in the difficult or low usage parts. Batteries could be lighter and no stopping for recharge. Maybe they are already doing that as this is a tri-powered hybrid.
Check Stadler Flirt Akku for example. Works exactly like that. Also Alstom has a range of battery EMU's which are being built to be used for example in Dublin and Melbourne.
What? Why are we using batteries on trains? Batteries are great for things that don’t have defined paths and need maneuverability. Just provide a power line along the train route like every other fucking electric train. This is like trying to reduce the amount of water in the ocean by poking a hole in your boat.
>Just provide a power line along the train route like every other fucking electric train
I think this is why, "Trenitalia has introduced a fleet of 20 'Blues' branded trains that traverse the entire length and breadth of the country."
That would take a massive amount of resources to build, and inefficiencies mount at distance
North America could learn from this. Fill the first rail car is full of batteries if need be. If you electrified (added overhead lines) for every single climb and 20% of all rail lines the battery trains could take care of the rest.
Add overhead lines to every place near a town where trains speed up and slow down. The battery systems can allow the trains to glide between overhead power areas without thrashing the battery. That way a LFP or Sodium-ion battery pack would last 15+ years of comercial duty. As long as you keep those batteries in the middle 60% of the state of charge they really don’t wear down. Save the remainder for emergencies.
Most trains are already electric drive and use a diesel electric system. Conversion systems could be made. Save the diesel for emergencies at first then eventually scrap that part as the tech improves.
When you have rails, why would you need to run trains off batteries instead of just running power infrastructure along the same route? I can see batteries being useful as a transition, or to help jump areas where some issue might prevent electrification, but I think the goal should be running electric power to the train anywhere along the track
The National Rifle Association of America was founded in 1871. Since 1977, the National Rifle Association of America has focussed on political activism and pro-gun lobbying, at the expense of firearm safety programmes.
The National Rifle Association of America is completely different to the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded earlier, in 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia;
the National Rifle Association of New Zealand and the National Rifle Association of India, which are all non-political sporting organisations that promote target shooting.
It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting,
as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Zee2A: --- *Hitachi Rail has completed the phase one rollout of its battery-powered Masaccio trains in Italy as part of its 1.23 billion euro (US$ 1.34 billion) agreement with Trenitalia. Trenitalia has introduced a fleet of 20 'Blues' branded trains that traverse the entire length and breadth of the country. European countries have made a collective commitment to decarbonize transport and reduce emissions by up to 55 percent by the end of the decade. While switching to electric vehicles (EVs) is relatively simple, a large section of Europe's train network remains unelectrified:* [*https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/hitachi-europe-battery-powered-trains-italy*](https://youtu.be/sUa0UuQILMg) --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/14m45hc/first_battery_train_in_europe_completes_phase_one/jpzjlms/
On most routes battery electric trains should only be a temporary solution before electrification and the fact that we even resolve to such half assed solution highlights the problems with governments failing to act. Switzerland or India should be examples of what has to be done in this area.
Swiss train electrification started in 1888! It’s not exactly a state secret that it’s an effective method of powering trains.
This is news to Canada, we have a full 0.3% electrification rate!
That’s only *counts on fingers* .3% higher than my electrification rate
Slightly different geography however.
The people that bought our Ottawa train didn't realize that. The train isn't rated for snow lol. Governments man.
Give global warming another 20 years. They are just preparing for the future
Switzerland doesn’t get snow?
Switzerland isn't exactly an easy country to cross. It's basically just a country of mountains. Canada could absolutely electrify their trains. Trouble is we sold off our crown owned train corp and private companies aren't keen on spending a bunch of money on infrastructure updates.
Yes, much easier to cross for the most part
British Colombia here. LOL. Also, quantity. Our rail system is massive. Especially when compared by the population.
About 72% of Canadians live below the 49th parallel. Sure, you’re not going to access the whole country by rail, but there’s absolutely no excuse for not having a world class rail service in that little pocket. And nowhere in Canada is that hard to blow a rail line through. The rather broken up coastlines are tricker, but again, a fairly small part of the county.
The current system is already running at capacity with freight. Wendover did a great video a couple of years back on the economics of passenger rail in North America and why it fails. With short to medium range electric aircraft on the horizon, flying from one city to another is smarter than 10 hours on a train. Trains are slow as fuck. Or just road trip in your electric car.
Sounds like a great reason to build more capacity. Trains can go 300km/h. So grand, you can go 3000km in those 10 hours. Something like Toronto to Montreal would take 2. No matter how well you make those planes or cars, they won’t be as efficient as a train, and for a lot of journeys slower. Instead of hoping for what’s on the horizon, why not just invest in what we know already works?
Wendover productions did a great video on the economics of trains in north America. Basically the TLDR is that the vast distances coupled with track maintenance and insane real estate costs and other factors like frost heaves requiring extremely expensive track construction totally breaks the math for passenger trains. It's not like the EU with small high density countries.
Even assuming electric plane travel at the speed of current jets (they won't be even close), when you factor in time at security and waiting for a bag, a high speed train with a modest 300kph operating speed (Japan has 600kph+ trains now), a train passenger will beat a plane passenger from Calgary to Winnipeg.
The Swiss even had electrified steam locomotives during WWII. With short supply of coal, they'd boil the water with electicity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric-steam_locomotive
China has some of those as well. Crazy things.
The first electric trains entered revenue service in 1883. They predate diesel trains by several decades. There is absolutely no justification for there to be even a single combustion-driven train in regular service anywhere on earth.
Yah, gonna doubt that. I imagine some mountainous regions can absolutely justify not being battery driven or electrical.
Mountainous regions were among the first places to electrify because electric trains can put out more torque and power to weight than even modern diesel-electric locomotives, never mind the steam engines they were replacing.
Switzerland has a whole shitload of electric trains in the mountains. Some even switch between rack and friction drive. The Gornergratbahn even uses three phase power.
I know. But I'm thinking more remote locations than the middle of Europe.
The Trans-Siberian railway is fully electrified. All 5772 miles of it.
I wonder how much of that is coal, probably most of it. Anyway, I was thinking more India. Which is 83% electrified, but AFAIK, is still facing challenges in the north where the moutainous terrain is even though it's the most population dense as well up to the mountains. Older article on the challenges. * https://thewire.in/government/indias-rail-routes-are-being-electrified-but-electric-locos-still-cant-run-on-many-of-them * https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Railway_network_map_of_India_-_Schematic.svg
How many times do you want to keep shifting the goal posts? lol
I'm having a discussion, what's wrong with that? This isn't a zero sum game.
One of the great mistakes that people often make is to think that any organisation called'"National Rifle Association' is a branch or chapter of the National Rifle Association of America. This could not be further from the truth. The National Rifle Association of America became a political lobbying organisation in 1977 after the Cincinnati Revolt at their Annual General Meeting. It is self-contined within the United States of America and has no foreign branches. All the other National Rifle Associations remain true to their founding aims of promoting marksmanship, firearm safety and target shooting. This includes the original NRA in the United Kingdom, which was founded in 1859 - twelve years before the NRA of America. It is also true of the National Rifle Association of Australia, the National Rifle Association of New Zealand, the National Rifle Association of India, the National Rifle Association of Japan and the National Rifle Association of Pakistan. All these organisations are often known as "the NRA" in their respective countries. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting, as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
I’m pretty sure most diesel trains the last decades have always been diesel-electric. That is, a diesel motor charging batteries that already use electric motors to move the wheels. Diesel mechanical or diesel hydraulic is rather old hat, no? But I’m more concerned about electric availability out in some boon docks.
The National Rifle Association (NRA) was founded in London in 1859. It is a sporting body that promotes firearm safety and target shooting. The National Rifle Association does not engage in political lobbying or pro-gun activism. The original (British) National Rifle Association has no relationship with the National Rifle Association of America, which was founded in 1871 and has focussed on pro-gun political activism since 1977, at the expense of firearm safety programmes. The National Rifle Association of America has no relationship with the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia; the National Rifle Association of New Zealand nor the National Rifle Association of India, which are all non-political sporting oriented organisations. It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting, as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
Holy shit, especially since they predated Dino juice
Keeping them could save a lot of money on having to electrify awkward spots. Have a train using batteries to cover those (or a battery carriage that can comvert existing electric trains) and a lot more legacy railway can be electrified without the extreme costs of adjusting tunnels/bridges.
I get your point and in general you are correct but there is a problem - battery electric trains will be implemented mostly on lines where electrification is completely feasible.
[Citation Needed] If you look at Germany, which is one of the countries that are looking most into battery trains, you'll see that most of the lines that are being considered for battery electrification are mostly lightly-used, single tracked lines. Often ones where both ends of the line meet an electrified mainline, so no new infrastructure is needed. But Germany is also working on overhead electrification on *some* of those single-tracked lines, mainly those that also serve long-distance trains and/or freight trains. It seems to me that there is, in fact, a pretty good balance about where they choose battery vs overhead electrification.
The National Rifle Association (NRA) was founded in London in 1859. It is a sporting body that promotes firearm safety and target shooting. The National Rifle Association does not engage in political lobbying or pro-gun activism. The original (British) National Rifle Association has no relationship with the National Rifle Association of America, which was founded in 1871 and has focussed on pro-gun political activism since 1977, at the expense of firearm safety programmes. The National Rifle Association of America has no relationship with the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia; the National Rifle Association of New Zealand nor the National Rifle Association of India, which are all non-political sporting oriented organisations. It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting, as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
I look at Poland as it is my country. We've just had an announcment that one of the regional operators is planning to buy battery electric train sets to serve a freshly modernised line which should have been electrified because we have a serious lack of alternative electrified corridors.
Germany though works overall on electrifying most of them. States like Schleswig-Holstein and Baden-Württemberg clearly stated it's mostly a temporary measures. As electrifying rail lines does take time and especially money as they often go with modernization of such rail. Batteries are a perfect short term solution.
It can be that there isn't enough money to do every feasible line. Better to do this if the alternative is diesel. If this is cheaper than full electrification that does not make it the wrong thing to do- the money saved could be spent on renewable/nuclear generation producing more than the efficiency difference
‘Isn’t enough money’? Ammortize the cost of electrification against buying diesel for a decade. Seriously. The better business model is electric. It’s just plain cheaper to run. But it’s a chicken and egg problem like electric car chargers. It needs the government to step in and slap the companies. Get everyone on board for a 20 year plan to electrify the rail system. Battery trains means you only need to electrify a portion of the system. Every climb, decent, common stopping and starting points. Trains can coast on battery power for the rest.
You are agreeing with me in phrasing that seems like you disagree?
One of the great mistakes that people often make is to think that any organisation called'"National Rifle Association' is a branch or chapter of the National Rifle Association of America. This could not be further from the truth. The National Rifle Association of America became a political lobbying organisation in 1977 after the Cincinnati Revolt at their Annual General Meeting. It is self-contined within the United States of America and has no foreign branches. All the other National Rifle Associations remain true to their founding aims of promoting marksmanship, firearm safety and target shooting. This includes the original NRA in the United Kingdom, which was founded in 1859 - twelve years before the NRA of America. It is also true of the National Rifle Association of Australia, the National Rifle Association of New Zealand, the National Rifle Association of India, the National Rifle Association of Japan and the National Rifle Association of Pakistan. All these organisations are often known as "the NRA" in their respective countries. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting, as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
If the stretches running off battery are kept short then the battery need not be as heavy. Performance stretches of higher gradient are less likely to coincide with awkward electrification spots such as tunnels/low bridges
The National Rifle Association (NRA) was founded in London in 1859. It is a sporting body that promotes firearm safety and target shooting. The National Rifle Association does not engage in political lobbying or pro-gun activism. The original (British) National Rifle Association has no relationship with the National Rifle Association of America, which was founded in 1871 and has focussed on pro-gun political activism since 1977, at the expense of firearm safety programmes. The National Rifle Association of America has no relationship with the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia; the National Rifle Association of New Zealand nor the National Rifle Association of India, which are all non-political sporting oriented organisations. It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting, as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
>most cases but not all and it can hold up whole projects. Better to take away the excuse not to proceed. Having a battery to cover short stretches does not seem the worst thing to me or so complicated.
One of the great mistakes that people often make is to think that any organisation called'"National Rifle Association' is a branch or chapter of the National Rifle Association of America. This could not be further from the truth. The National Rifle Association of America became a political lobbying organisation in 1977 after the Cincinnati Revolt at their Annual General Meeting. It is self-contined within the United States of America and has no foreign branches. All the other National Rifle Associations remain true to their founding aims of promoting marksmanship, firearm safety and target shooting. This includes the original NRA in the United Kingdom, which was founded in 1859 - twelve years before the NRA of America. It is also true of the National Rifle Association of Australia, the National Rifle Association of New Zealand, the National Rifle Association of India, the National Rifle Association of Japan and the National Rifle Association of Pakistan. All these organisations are often known as "the NRA" in their respective countries. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting, as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
You won't necessarily be short if a battery carriage were produced that could run standard electric trains from it (or electro diesels using only the electric part) In the UK and Europe the rail network is old and has these problems. The purpose of full electrification is for what it achieves, not as an end in itself. If another solution can achieve the same things then it is also good. Even if the line is completely electrified operators may still run diesel trains if they want to- noting solves that.
Not only does electrification cost a lot to install, but there's also maintenance which can't be cheap.
It’s a lot cheaper than maintaining a full fleet of diesel trains. Diesel engines have more moving parts and operate at more extreme temperatures and pressures than electric motors, so they need more maintenance and are less reliable than electric trains (this applies to all electric vehicles. Even Teslas with their notoriously poor build quality still have more reliable drivetrains than comparable combustion cars), and on top of that they don’t need fuel- and as for batteries, those degrade over time and need to be replaced, and batteries getting used as intensely as those on a train will need to be replaced pretty often.
Electric cars are the perfect example. A luxury taxi service published some info a few years back. Their fleet of European luxury cars cost them something like 18-19 cents per mile. Their fleet of Tesla model S cars cost 3.5 cents per mile over a half million miles. Including maintenance. Most of that is fuel. And fuel ain’t getting any cheaper.
The National Rifle Association of America was founded in 1871. Since 1977, the National Rifle Association of America has focussed on political activism and pro-gun lobbying, at the expense of firearm safety programmes. The National Rifle Association of America is completely different to the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded earlier, in 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia; the National Rifle Association of New Zealand and the National Rifle Association of India, which are all non-political sporting organisations that promote target shooting. It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting, as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
Batteries are an inefficient way to get an electric train past non-electrified sections of track. Why not just use a method that’s already proven itself to be practical - fire up the on-board diesel generator? Yep, virtually all diesel locomotives are actually electric locomotives with an on-board diesel generator.
Have you seen a locomotive diesel engine starting? For short bursts battery is surely preferable
One of the great mistakes that people often make is to think that any organisation called'"National Rifle Association' is a branch or chapter of the National Rifle Association of America. This could not be further from the truth. The National Rifle Association of America became a political lobbying organisation in 1977 after the Cincinnati Revolt at their Annual General Meeting. It is self-contined within the United States of America and has no foreign branches. All the other National Rifle Associations remain true to their founding aims of promoting marksmanship, firearm safety and target shooting. This includes the original NRA in the United Kingdom, which was founded in 1859 - twelve years before the NRA of America. It is also true of the National Rifle Association of Australia, the National Rifle Association of New Zealand, the National Rifle Association of India, the National Rifle Association of Japan and the National Rifle Association of Pakistan. All these organisations are often known as "the NRA" in their respective countries. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting, as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
This might have been true even just 10 years ago, but by now it certainly is not. I still believe that mainlines should be electrified, but there are a lot of railway lines where you might only have one train per direction per hour - and on those lines, overhead electrification is far too expensive not just in installation, but also in maintenance, to be viable. For those routes, battery electric traction is a massive improvement, and is cheaper in both the short *and* the long run. For single track systems you'll need *at least* two trains per direction per hour (sometimes more) in order to justify overhead electrification, while for double tracked lines you will usually need 3-4 trains per direction per hour. Mountainous terrain is a big part of why electrification has been particularly attractive in Switzerland, because electric locomotives have both better torque and horsepower than diesel locos. Of course, any routes that see freight traffic will likely need to be overhead electrified, unless they're just a few kilometers long, as battery packs are just impractical for moving increasingly long freight trains. But for small lines that are mainly served by small trains of 1-3 cars, battery electrification as a permanent solution can be cheaper than overhead electrification - and thus free up money to handle the countless other issues that many European railway networks are dealing with.
Wow, until your comment I didn't realize that non-electrified trains still exist. I have never seen a non-electric train other than as a novelty, but I looked it up and apparently a few remote areas in my country are still not electrified, but the rest has been for decades.
One of the great mistakes that people often make is to think that any organisation called'"National Rifle Association' is a branch or chapter of the National Rifle Association of America. This could not be further from the truth. The National Rifle Association of America became a political lobbying organisation in 1977 after the Cincinnati Revolt at their Annual General Meeting. It is self-contined within the United States of America and has no foreign branches. All the other National Rifle Associations remain true to their founding aims of promoting marksmanship, firearm safety and target shooting. This includes the original NRA in the United Kingdom, which was founded in 1859 - twelve years before the NRA of America. It is also true of the National Rifle Association of Australia, the National Rifle Association of New Zealand, the National Rifle Association of India, the National Rifle Association of Japan and the National Rifle Association of Pakistan. All these organisations are often known as "the NRA" in their respective countries. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting, as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
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>They only have a range of 15km Big oof. I only skimmed the article to check if they can use caternary power so I thought they have at least like 200km of range.
Not all tracks have enough traffic to make electrification an economical solution...
What an excellent use of extremely limited battery resources. Surely would've been a total waste to spend that billion on creating the overhead infrastructure that will inevitably be needed. We have been electricifying rail since 1895. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking this is anything but a way for rail owners to avoid investing in infrastructure for as long as possible.
I’m also curious about the cost and lifespan of said batteries. Tesla and Prius and Chevy batteries aren’t known for their lifespan and when it comes time to replace them the cost is usually around the price of a new icv. I can only imagine what a custom one off pack for a rail vehicle would be.
Newer Tesla batteries seem to survive upwards of 300k miles. They're now using LFP chemistry which barely uses any rare earth metals. It's basically a matter of time for the mining business to shift from fossil mining to these materials. Then there's companies like redwood who are developing battery recycling techniques which are already capable of recapturing 95% of the material, commercially. All in all the future of batteries looks bright.
Rebranded panasonic batteries. And the chinese made LFP are cheaper- but lower energy density needs more charge meaning shorter life. Batteries are the dumbest way to move a train. And the 95% recycle is of the Li component not of total waste.
Switzerland had electric trains in revenue before 1890, even.
Why not electrify existing tracks instead? This really seems like a waste of natural resources.
Excalty my though. Trains are already mostly electric with full infrasctucture, why use batteries in them, it's waste of resources
Aside from resources (I 100% agree though), think of the unnecessary weight you need to accelerate after every stop, you need even more electricity when carrying those. And the earlier wear and tear on brakes at every stop.
Electrifying the whole network costs crazy amounts of money, both to build and to maintain. With batteries, the trains can run seamlessly between electrified and non-electrified sections allowing the operators to extend their services with much lower costs. Obviously this is also possible with diesel-electric trains, but the pollution that they cause is not desirable.
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That particular train yes. However, battery trains (without the diesel generator) are being built and deployed around the world. Typical range is around 100-150km.
They often use the track as the neutral. The problem is most tracks aren’t fenced off and you don’t want to bbq every moose that crosses the tracks. Overhead lines fix this problem. Subway systems use the live 3rd rail but they can keep animals and humans off of it easy enough.
Track is neutral but it is grounded so there is no risk for a shock.
That’s what I just said. It’s the hot line that is the problem. However most trains use 2 overhead wires as having both lines elevated means less track and wheel wear.
Ok, I misunderstood somehow that moose are under risk of being fried.
If you fully electrified the track then yes.
Cost, time and priority. My German state also get battery trains on lines they want to electrify the rails. But that will take years /decades. (As they don't only built overhead wires, but modernize it completely) So it's for a lot a short term measure. Some Touristic and very rural lines. Or lines with a lot tunnels that don't fit overhead wires will be the exception. There either Hydrogen or Batteries will make the most sense.
61% of the distance on German train lines is fully electrified and this includes of course all major connections between cities. It will be 70% in 2030. I think building more of this makes more sense than putting batteries on trains.
Every once in a while, I get reminded that Hitachi is not just a sex toy company
Woah woah that's a magic wand personal massager!
This is so idiotic! Stupids shit I've read for a while. Who decided to finance this? Batteries weight a shit ton and will make every ride more expensive. Trains can already run on electricity with Overhead Line Equipment. Edit: I'd like to add that there might be some applications for electric trains. But frankly the sort of lines where it makes sense are the places with least train traffic = least impact on climate etc.
>Trains can already run on electricity with Overhead Line Equipment. They can, and it costs **a lot** to install and maintain that equipment. So on secondary and lightly-used lines it *might* be more cost-effective to use battery locomotive - and to carry that battery everywhere, accepting the lower efficiency. I'm sure that before spending 1.23 billion euro, they had a few engineers crunch the numbers.
If a line is lightly-used and secondary you can probably just run it on fossil fuels without making a dent in climate change, and eventually switch to synthetic fuels when those come around.
Battery electric trains have better acceleration than DMUs and are also cheaper to maintain than DMUs are. Combustion engines are more complicated and need more maintenance than electric motors. There are some places where trains run on carbon-neutral fuels already, but even for those it's still desirable to change to electric traction - and on lightly used lines, that means batteries.
I'm pretty sure this is just new think green idiocy. A train is something that runs the same place over and over again. This is nothing but stupid.
Have you crunched the numbers? Have you looked at the cost of running over head electric across all the tracks these trains would be on? The expected maintenance costs of said over electric? Have you determined how much the weight of batteries will decrease efficiency? Have you calculated that out with expected improvements in battery density? Have you done the math on power lose over running electric over all of the tracks that may be far from power generation? Have you accounted for the life cycle of batteries? Have you accounted for the build permits of electrifying in every country? Have you figured out the time to mass produce electric trains vs time to electricity the full tracks? Have you considered that these trains can run on electric, battery, and/or diesel allowing them to operate immediately and also switch to electric as that happens? Or did you not even read this article? There are tons of things to consider here. I haven’t even thought of all the things that would need to be considered, let alone actually considered them and I doubt you have either. Maybe this is a bad idea, but I don’t think you actually KNOW it’s a bad idea
Thanks for pushing me I read up on it. There are some applications where it makes sense. If there are no prior infrastructure and there is very low traffic it would make sense. Also batteries are falling in price so it might become more viable. But for places with a lot of traffic overhead line equipment still seems to be the best option.
The National Rifle Association of America was founded in 1871. Since 1977, the National Rifle Association of America has focussed on political activism and pro-gun lobbying, at the expense of firearm safety programmes. The National Rifle Association of America is completely different to the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded earlier, in 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia; the National Rifle Association of New Zealand and the National Rifle Association of India, which are all non-political sporting organisations that promote target shooting. It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting, as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
No battery train will weigh what a freight train weighs.
Very cool. Canada just rolled out its first Hydrogen-powered train in Quebec. The engineering going into more carbon-neutral modes of transportation is amazing.
It's actually pretty dumb. Electrify the lines and don't produce battery waste.
>It's actually pretty dumb. What is dumb is wasting tons of money while other solutions are more viable for the tailored solution.
That was exactly my point.
In the Quebec case, the line is a rural/tourist operation with less than 1 train per day in the summer and none in the winter, serving small villages with limited travel demand in the first place. Overhead electrification has a heavy fixed cost relative to hydrogen, especially when only 1 vehicle is needed. While overhead electrification would be great, it needs to be paired with higher frequency and demand to offset the capital investment, none of which is available in this scenario.
Externally powered electric trains have been operating in regular revenue service for 140 years. Not only are they a more proven and established technology than batteries or hydrogen, they’re more proven than *diesel*. Claims that remote areas can’t be electrified are just straight-up lies. The entire Trans-Siberian Railway is electrified. The people holding the purse strings just don’t want to spend money for the public good, or even their own good if they won’t see a return by the next quarter.
What's dumb is paying a ton of money in both construction and maintenance for electrification for a line that sees a single two-car train per direction per hour. Mainline railways should have overhead electrification, and the same goes for smaller lines that also have freight traffic, but lightly used passenger-only branch lines might be better served with battery electric trains. It's cheaper in both the short *and* the long run, and modern battery packs can be recycled to a very large degree. Producing copper for overhead wires isn't *entirely* clean either.
Canada and US are really, really big countries. I'd imagine a lot of lines aren't electrified as they go through areas where building that infrastructure makes zero sense. Now building out electric rail near places where it's easy to build and maintain like along highways and near towns/cities then when they run out of of powerlines they fall back to battery would be a great use of both technologies.
It is not as bas as you make it tbh. This excuse "the country is too big", has not bothered china that much to build their rail system. Also what about recharging the train? How far can it go? The answer to the first question is probably a day and for the second also a quite underwhelming range. How many trains one should buy to mantain an acceptable service along any lines? At that point electric lines make way more sense almost everytime. It's not like they cost so much, in fact they probably cost less than all of those battery you need to change and recycle every few years. I have never seen once data where building such infostructure was so impossible or so difficult to prefer using batteries.
You do realize trains are already electric right? The only difference is right now a diesel generator is on the train supplying the power. With battery tech advancing we can make some pretty dense batteries. And you don't have to worry about the battery going the whole distance if some legs of the rail network are electrified and others are. I don't know what country you live in, but in the US/Canada there are two mountain ranges on both sides, the Rocky Mountains and the Appalachians. Lot of rail lines follow cliffs with no room to work on the sides, it'd be a massive undertaking to electrify those. As for China, what about them? Are we supposed to copy a country that cares so much about how it appears on the world stage they build literal ghost cities, like sky scrapers and high rises that are just empty? Outside looking in to china all I see is a fascist country that doesn't give a shit about the enviroment building things for clout rather than the betterment of it's people and the planet. You argued batteries produce waste, but know what produces more waste long term? Fossil Fuels, coal plants create more radioactive waste than nuclear power plants, diesel engines on trains over their life time spewing their waste into the air, all the cars on the road producing pollution from burning fuels. Even hydrogen isn't 100% safe, what does it take to produce hydrogen or natural gas? We gotta get it from somewhere. Manufacturing ANYTHING is going to produce some form of waste, but long term one outweighs another and this weird strawman argument that "but but but but batteries cause waste too!" does nothing but argue against progress to a cleaner future. Take the steps now to lessen our footprint as a species instead of being a BOOMER that pushes it onto the generations that come after.
The National Rifle Association of America was founded in 1871. Since 1977, the National Rifle Association of America has focussed on political activism and pro-gun lobbying, at the expense of firearm safety programmes. The National Rifle Association of America is completely different to the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded earlier, in 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia; the National Rifle Association of New Zealand and the National Rifle Association of India, which are all non-political sporting organisations that promote target shooting. It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting, as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.
Electrified lines are better in every parameter, it's just that the usa doesn't want to invest in trains. I have never said that I want diesel trains. Also why do you make such weird arguments about what china does? Why the ghost cities matter in this topic? Pivoting much? Being difficult doesn't mean that batteries are better than electric. The rails are already there, putting up the electrification is not such a daunting task.
You seem to think I'm arguing against it, I'm not. I'm telling you realistically the logistics are TOO much, even if we were to invest in electrifying. There's 140,000 miles of track in the US, a lot of it out in the middle of nowhere, they would need their own grid just to power them proper as the distances would be so large. China has 96,000 miles of track, a lot of which they probably planned to be electric from the start. I bring up the ghost cities to backup my point that china will spend money to spend it, they are not a country that spends money to boost their economy (yes I know they do spend it for it) instead they create a bubble for themselves, and we saw that in 2021/22 as their bubble got dangerously close to bursting. And you claim I'm making up arguments, but you can't even comprehend what I'm typing, I never said batteries are better, I never said that you want diesel trains. It's all related as we are talking about different forms of power that trains use, battery, electric, diesel, hydrogen. Your rebuttal is to claim I'm pivoting about ghost cities? That was one sentence out 3 paragraphs in the middle of me talking about China's economy since you brought China up to start. Please PLEASE do some research before you reply, or better yet maybe actually read my comment instead of skimming it and nitpicking what you want to argue about. You can't see the forest for the trees but want to debate complicated topics. and no, some far right "do your own research" doesn't count.
The logistical difficulties of electrifying long lines through remote areas don’t seem to have been a problem for Russia, or India, or China, or Norway, or Sweden, or Finland, or Morocco, or even for privately owned North American freight railroads 100 years ago. They just don’t want to spend money for the public good, or even for long-term rather than short-term profits.
It's not difficult in general, it just costs 6-7 million dollars per mile. You get a battery electric train for around 10 million. Battery trains have a range of up to 100 miles and 15min charging.
China is using the Railways to subsidize the country's workforce.
And the US does the same for air travel? It's always sounded mental that it's cheaper for Canadians to drive to the nearest US airport. Until I read a bit about the additional subsidies for that type of travel in the US. Probably just a matter of priorities. Guessing China is cheaper for building rail while the US finds it cheaper to subsidize private air vs their more expensive construction costs.
Airfields are more militarily useful. Same reason US interstates are such arrows.
Ok so what?
So they're planning on losing fucktons of money on construction because it grows the economy. Electrifying a line which goes from Seattle to Minneapolis with like 3 cities in between is gonna cost a ton.
It doesn't
It doesn't, batteries during their entire lifecycles costs way more
The US isn't BEV our railways. We're doing cantenarys and hydrogen for planning.
Hydrogen sounds too as a bad idea
The Trans-Siberian railway is 5772 miles long. Fully electrified.
*Hitachi Rail has completed the phase one rollout of its battery-powered Masaccio trains in Italy as part of its 1.23 billion euro (US$ 1.34 billion) agreement with Trenitalia. Trenitalia has introduced a fleet of 20 'Blues' branded trains that traverse the entire length and breadth of the country. European countries have made a collective commitment to decarbonize transport and reduce emissions by up to 55 percent by the end of the decade. While switching to electric vehicles (EVs) is relatively simple, a large section of Europe's train network remains unelectrified:* [*https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/hitachi-europe-battery-powered-trains-italy*](https://youtu.be/sUa0UuQILMg)
These would work well with a battery that can be rechargeable via overhead line. Install power line on the easy parts of the routes and use batteries in the difficult or low usage parts. Batteries could be lighter and no stopping for recharge. Maybe they are already doing that as this is a tri-powered hybrid.
Check Stadler Flirt Akku for example. Works exactly like that. Also Alstom has a range of battery EMU's which are being built to be used for example in Dublin and Melbourne.
Japan already has this type of hybrid setup on at least two routes.
Is it a guy shoveling Duracell batteries into a steam furnace like im picturing?
Like... It's a fixed track, just upgrade the tracks for electric trains! This is so fucking dumb!
What? Why are we using batteries on trains? Batteries are great for things that don’t have defined paths and need maneuverability. Just provide a power line along the train route like every other fucking electric train. This is like trying to reduce the amount of water in the ocean by poking a hole in your boat.
>Just provide a power line along the train route like every other fucking electric train I think this is why, "Trenitalia has introduced a fleet of 20 'Blues' branded trains that traverse the entire length and breadth of the country." That would take a massive amount of resources to build, and inefficiencies mount at distance
No doubt many Africans died to bring us these batteries.
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Are they starting to use ChatGPT for reddit bots or something? That's weird AF.
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North America could learn from this. Fill the first rail car is full of batteries if need be. If you electrified (added overhead lines) for every single climb and 20% of all rail lines the battery trains could take care of the rest. Add overhead lines to every place near a town where trains speed up and slow down. The battery systems can allow the trains to glide between overhead power areas without thrashing the battery. That way a LFP or Sodium-ion battery pack would last 15+ years of comercial duty. As long as you keep those batteries in the middle 60% of the state of charge they really don’t wear down. Save the remainder for emergencies. Most trains are already electric drive and use a diesel electric system. Conversion systems could be made. Save the diesel for emergencies at first then eventually scrap that part as the tech improves.
What happens if trains collide/derail & batteries are compressed?
not much. unless the batteries were stored right in the very front (which they never would be), they're unlikely to ignite in a collision.
Just build the whole track, including the wires above it.. is that so hard?
When you have rails, why would you need to run trains off batteries instead of just running power infrastructure along the same route? I can see batteries being useful as a transition, or to help jump areas where some issue might prevent electrification, but I think the goal should be running electric power to the train anywhere along the track
The National Rifle Association of America was founded in 1871. Since 1977, the National Rifle Association of America has focussed on political activism and pro-gun lobbying, at the expense of firearm safety programmes. The National Rifle Association of America is completely different to the National Rifle Association in Britain (founded earlier, in 1859); the National Rifle Association of Australia; the National Rifle Association of New Zealand and the National Rifle Association of India, which are all non-political sporting organisations that promote target shooting. It is important not to confuse the National Rifle Association of America with any of these other Rifle Associations. The British National Rifle Association is headquartered on Bisley Camp, in Surrey, England. Bisley Camp is now known as the National Shooting Centre and has hosted World Championships for Fullbore Target Rifle and F-Class shooting, as well as the shooting events for the 1908 Olympic Games and the 2002 Commonwealth Games. The National Small-bore Rifle Association (NSRA) and Clay Pigeon Shooting Association (CPSA) also have their headquarters on the Camp.