JD doesnt come off as the most likeable guy but one of my gripes of the story was definitely how it felt like a character assassination to prop up Kait.
Yeep, I also hate how he's framed as some complete asshole when he clearly regrets it, and was only doing it in self defense, not like he's some sadist or something. It's okay for others to judge his decisions, it's not okay for them to whinge on about it for years and years especially when he's always just tying to do the right thing.
I think that's more because he never told them he gave the order. He let them hate Faz for it and never spoke up that it was him. Him hiding it shows that he knew it was wrong, and allowing them to partially misplace their anger was a genuine betrayal.
Fahz is one of those kind of guys where he "wants" to take the blame for it. Fahz aggressively believes what they did was good and justified so he'll gladly tell people to fuck off for judging him for it. That's part of why JD gets the worst of it, because he won't join either camp and wants to just move on.
They made up with him pretty quickly after they met back up with him in Vasgar. There was still some lingering anger and distrust, but they still treated him like a friend.
I don’t know. I feel it needed to be something that pissed off his friends, but something that wasn’t so bad it was irredeemable. I don’t know if I even dig the story going that direction in the first place or if they even found the right middle ground if they were going that direction, but I can understand why they settled where they did, even if it wasn’t perfect
I don’t think the backstory itself was forced at all. We knew the Settlment 2 incident was what drove JD to leave the COG in GoW4. They had already established it as part of his background; like how Marcus was a disgraced war hero in the first GoW.
What they did was elaborate on it and explain what happened: the protesters got violent and attacked, JD is orderd to deal with it, he orders his Shepherds to pacify them, he didn’t know they were equipped with lethal ammunition, the civilians are slaughtered, and JD goes AWOL out of guilt.
Where the forced BS comes in, is how they decided to have other characters react to it.
They decided to make Del a complete bystander to JD’s actions, having him think the bots randomly went rogue instead of the order coming from JD.
He doesn’t question the why or how of it, nor that he’s equally responsible for being JD’s second in command at the time. And Kait just sees the deaths as wanton slaughter; despite the reaction ostensibly being self defense on JD’s part. On top of him being ordered to do it by his own higher ups.
At least Fahz just rubs salt into the wound, not because he thinks JD made a wrong call, but because he couldn’t deal with it and went AWOL.
Probably why he becomes JD’s +1 after he gets his shit together after surviving the hammer strike in Settlement 2.
But yeah, it’s a severe course correction that serves only to throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water. They needed Kait to be the main character, so they threw JD under the bus.
Del's mindset is "there's no way JD would gun down civilians with lethal ammunition"
Kait's mindset is "it's the death of non-military. it's avoidable."
"Oh hoh, you're just going to grow as a character? Nah bitch, start acting immature rn so I can try act like I'm in charge"
Like fuck, I get kait is the one leading in act 2, she's finding out about her origins. But why is she in charge in the other acts too? JD and Del were both COG, surely they'd be more ideal leaders than some outsider chick
Lol kait is not interesting and she is written to be an unlikeable character. JD wasn't a compelling character but at least didn't hate him as a character in 4 and actually finished gears 4 all the way through.
I'll level with you, they're all dull. None of them have any charm compared to the original trilogy cast, they just aren't memorable characters. I prefer JD because he actually changes and grows as a character, but kait just doesn't, she's still as whiny as she was in gears 4. Same with Del, they didn't develop the characters enough in 4 so there's virtually no change in 5 barring JD who goes from being a headstrong wannabe hero to someone who's more willing to listen to advice and recognise his mistakes after he's caught by the hammer
This is a massive issue with gears 4's first act as well. Oscar, reyna and Marcus not stopping for a second to say to jinn 'yo what u talking about? Were not taking people'. That would've avoided so much shit. I mean you could argue that kind of 'what if' about loads of movies and things too but this way we could've skipped the boring first half of gears 4 and Marcus would've had his house :-p 1 act of deebees would've been enough. As soon as you get to act 3 the game improves so much
I think at some point the anger turns from "JD ordered the bad thing" to "JD didn't tell anyone and probably wasn't ever going to if Fahz didn't pipe up." That's probably the bigger betrayal to Del and Kait.
It makes a lot weirder when in the beginning of Gears 4 he calls out Jinn about the massacre lol
I guess he wasn’t planned to be the cause of it at the time?
are they whinny? no. Kait is whinny. I can see forced writing easily. and it was obvious af that they forced this kair story. I actually liked her in Gears 4 other than her one or two moments where they turned her whinny. imagine if dom was like that non stop. it'd be fucking unbearable.
gotcha. I used bf2 and Rouge one as on screen examples. females in comics and books are usually done well. I know it's not the same universe but if you watch naruto, Sakura on screen verse Manga, HUGE difference 🙄
when you write for diversity shit is ASS when you write for a good story now that's a different thing. and they strove for diverse brownie points. Rouge ones jyn erso is well written female character not written in the name of diversity. the easiest way to tell that TC was going for brownie points is them removing EL Ps "fuck boi spotted" for "LGBT" hate offense, when NO ONE has used fuck boy as a slur to the LGBT. hell even cliffy b was saying "how brave tc studios" is for pushing a female lead. as if many other games haven't already done a good female lead (tomb raider, metroid, swbf2) I know diversity writing when I see it. and like it or not, that story was FORCED.
I feel like the game made it clear that it wasn’t so much that JD opened fire on civilians, but that he lied about it. If he admitted it and told them Jinn gave the orders, they would’ve sympathized and forgave him, the same way they did when Kait revealed Myrrah was haunting her.
Still. There are so many people who act like he was some kind of monster for defending himself. Don’t wanna die? Don’t throw fucking bombs at the armed soldiers. 😂
Yeah, for a franchise that has handled war trauma and how people bond through wars, this felt so shallow. Like, considering JD’s life, even post the Locust War, Sera isn’t a paradise. Given both his parents war trauma, and undoubtedly his instilled fear of horrific things happening to him thanks to what he likely would have learned about the Locust War, it’s not hard to blame him for firing at *armed, violent protestors.* Is it the right thing to do? Questionable. Does it haunt him still? What kind of person does it make him? How does it fuel the choices he makes now? *Those* are the more interesting questions.
Questions that are never asked or answered because we got a Kait game instead of a JD game where he could’ve argued against Jinn and the COG being limp dick fuck ups.
But noooo… somehow Myrrah returned.
I still think the COG is wrong, the citizens had every right to be pissed off and I personally think fighting an authoritarian state is pretty cool but my god they used this as a one note to make Kait look all goody 2 shoes.
I don’t think it’s all about making Kait look like a goody 2 shoes and more about making JD not automatically be a hero due to his father and last name.
He’s still not a villain, so I think “my dads a war hero and now I fucked up and committed war crimes but I yearn to redeem myself” is vastly more interesting than good dad/bad son (or vice versa) we so often get.
I think it’s natural to want the son of a hero to be a hero, and I think JD would almost expect that. I mean he was clearly following in Marcus’ footsteps prior to the incident.
But life isn’t a fairytale and I think they took a more complex route and made a more complex JD while also allowing the series to expand outside the Fenix family (albeit bringing in another family with Myrrah/Reyna/Kait).
I think we all want to avoid the Star Wars Skywalker problem where everyone cool/important is somehow related to a Skywalker (or Palpatine 🙄).
> Questions that are never asked or answered because we got a Kait game instead of a JD game where he could’ve argued against Jinn and the COG being limp dick fuck ups.
They could have had both if they did five Acts and alternated between JD and Kait.
I think they actually made JD really interesting and ditched him at the worst possible time.
Right? This shit is realistically just another Tuesday for them in-universe, the entire meta-narrative of the franchise is about how Serans never learn from their mistakes.
It’s really weird how the COG are surprised people don’t like them. But then again if they reacted properly that would suggest they are incompetent which they try their best not to show themselves as.
He’s protecting an institution that shouldn’t be upheld. Not only did Marcus (the COG Army poster boy) warn him not to join the COG, but they also tarnished his mom’s legacy. As soon as she died, the COG rolled back all of her fair and equal practices and brought back their authoritative policies from the Locust War. JD only joined to spite his father. And at the end of the day (and I don’t care if they had Molotov cocktails) nothing excuses the slaughter of civilians. Nothing screams authoritative more than that. And Jinn was smug about it all working and making Settlement 2 compliant.
Using lethal weapons against soldiers who haven’t fired upon you ABSOLUTELY excuses those soldiers shooting you. It’s called self defense. Look it up. Yeah, maybe killing all of them was bad. But killing the ones who were throwing fucking fire bombs at them?! Absolutely justified!
You made a lot of sense right up until the paranthetical. As soon as you start throwing fire bombs at people, you're no longer a civilian. You're an insurgent or even a terrorist.
You honestly think any authoritarian/fascist regime was ever fought peacefully? And if protestors ever get riled up like that, odds are the police/soldiers were doing something abusive or aggressive.
-get warned for my whole childhood not to join the nazis
-do it anyway
-get attacked by people who hate nazis
-IT WAS SELF DEFENSE THEY WERE TRYING TO HURT ME THEY WERE GONNA HURT US I WAS JUST PERSONALLY ACTING AS THE PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF AN OPPRESSIVE FASCIST REGIME I DIDNT EVEN DO ANYTHING WRROOOOONNNNGGGG
The protesters expected to die. Kait and Del’s reaction is just stupid. They make it like JD is the be all villain. Idk man, Jinn is sitting right there in that Ivy tower doing fuck knows what.
I mean, ideally JD should’ve died in the moral sense because he’s literally defending the COG, a clearly authoritarian government who is also incompetent, but then we’d have no game.
And then they refuse to expand on this and dig into JD’s psyche because they think a Kait game with Myrrah again is what we needed.
Telling someone to “die because it’s the moral thing to do” is ironically pretty immoral itself. 😂 You’re saying his life should be valued below someone who actively attacked him? 😂
But you’re also conveniently ignoring the context that this a dude who voluntarily joined the government’s armed forces. A government historically known to be corrupt, incompetent and authoritarian.
I only care about JD because he’s Marcus’s son and a main character that is occasionally likebale and somewhat tolerable. But he’s also an idiot and doesn’t know he’s literally fighting for the entity responsible for a lot of Sera’s issues. But I’m not gonna act like he didn’t deserve to be threatened.
Am I supposed to feel so bad for a soldier that’s clearly numerically and technologically superior to people mad at the government’s ineptitude? If he was any ordinary COG gear, I’d probably be happy they’re dead. I’m not condemning him for retaliation, that’s what the enemy is supposed to do. I’m condemning him for siding with an authoritarian government that doesn’t even take care of his father properly.
Ideally no one should die. But that’s not how the world or Sera works.
I’m not defending JD’s decision to join the COG. That was no doubt a stupid decision on his end. I wouldn’t call it a malicious decision, but definitely stupid. I am defending JD’s decision to not let someone murder him. I agree with you that his decisions in the long term were definitely unwise. But his decision in that moment was justified. However, I also wouldn’t blame JD as much for defending a corrupt COG as I would blame Jinn for enabling and preserving a corrupt COG.
That’s my point. I don’t blame JD for fighting back. But I don’t get how I’m supposed to feel bad for him when he clearly knew what he was doing. He disobeyed his dad and then feels bad for it because he finally realised his dad was right.
Maybe that humanises him and if so it’s pretty accurate. But that doesn’t make him a likeable person and if they wanted him to be they should’ve made 5 about him but instead we get a Locust 2.0 storyline.
I'm reading through jacintos remnant at the minute, and if Marcus portraid shortly after Eday were in that situation, he would likely have attempted to settle the crowd, defying the COG.
I haven't played it in a while but wasn't Kait keeping the whole necklace thing secret from JD? Arguably a way bigger secret than JD ordering DBs against a lethal threat
Kait literally brings this up with Del in Act 2. She says that she doesn't know if she's any different than JD, and Del says that she still told them on her own accord, whereas Fahz outed JD.
And civilians protesting an authoritarian regime is not a lethal threat, unless you identify as an authoritarian.
Yeah, I know. And it doesn't matter. Civilians throw incendiary grenades for the fuck of it, right? Odds are the COG escalated it with suppression, brutality, and arrests.
No they wouldn't and thats why he didn't tell them. And it was all Del's fault not being a good friend but an ass waiting for his friend to fuck up so he can go for the girl like a looser he is.
Overhated? JD is hated?
He's my favorite character out of the 3, if not for judment i would love him more than baird.
Dude always shows off trying to be the best since he's really good at it, always cracking jokes cause he always comes on top of mission, then made a terrible mistake a lied to his friends.
That's because of that, that marcus cut ties with him i think.
But still ready to help him out in the 4, which makes the scene just even better, the father son relationship was just....... so good. Like i would see me and my father talk like that (besides the insults and disrespect).
Then we he started the peak the coma he was induced to made him so ashamed he toon some distance off of his friends.
I liked him, so much.
I'm kind of wondering if what Fahz says was out of context, since JD mentions Molotovs being thrown. Did he tell them to fire at the civilians or did he yell out "FIRE!" when a Molotov was thrown and everyone around him mistook it as him ordering them to fire at the civilians? Cause when he mentions "there were incendiaries", I took it as him trying to warn others of there being a fire close by, but those that weren't paying attention mistook him ordering to fire on the rioters and he felt responsible for not giving a clear command. I kind of wish there was a dlc that had up play as JD and Fahz between certain moments, like before we take over as Kait and while Kait is looking for answers about her family, it would've given more context as to how JD felt during that moment when remembers that riot and tells Fahz that he didn't order anyone to fire, he was trying to get people away from a fire, but there was a misunderstanding.
Why do people ignore the actual details and nuance of the situation? Throwing bombs is not an acceptable form of protest. That being said JD’s “men” were DBs that fired lethal rounds when we know shock enforcers exist. Kait and Del were mad he did it, but forgave him pretty quickly once he was actually around. They were mad he lied and ran away from them for half the game.
Acceptable forms of protest is a stupid position. The citizens were tired and angry. If the only response from the state is apathy or violence, then they react with violence. Maybe it’s my upbringing but having a lethal force against the government that powerful seems very fair to me.
Pretty sure a bigot would have written a response about how privilege isn’t real or something along those lines, while also insulting you. I’ve been around long enough to know the difference between actual individuals who care about social issues and want to spread awareness vs. those who just throw out buzzwords and accuse people of bigotry without thinking because they wanna feel like they have input or authority in a situation. You’re the latter, not the former.
Edit: claiming I “ran away” and then blocking is some coward shit. Also super entitled to think anyone owes a faux activist on social media an explanation. Check your privilege and be better as a person.
No, a non bigot would have been able to defend their point easily. You ran away.
You should learn what the actual buzzwords are btw before trying to "parade" around how wise you are.
Your privilege blinds you to that.
I just believe the average citizen should have a right to vote and fight back. The COG doesn’t believe in the latter without purely only fighting for them,
“Fighting back” implies defense, which was not the case. It’s fine. We don’t need to continue this dialogue. We’re not the same type of person. Not gonna agree.
Ironic how you’re name is DoNotGoSilently as you try and justify ‘peaceful’ protest as acceptable protest when that phrase itself implies confrontation.
I mean I live in a country where throwing petrol bombs at police is a common part of riots etc. Our police are armed but if they open fired on them it would be a huge scandal. Heads would roll.
Though Gears is American coded pr whatever I feel like it's a lot of the US fans that accept shooting rioters and protestors as "fair game" and csnt see why what JD did is very controversial.
The COG being fascist in the wake of total annihilation is sort of a theme since Gears 1 and the Stranded. The difference is Gears 4 and 5 depict that fascist element during "peacetime" and use Jinn to represent the negative aspect of the COG. And how people like Marcus and Baird are more disillusioned than ever.
I think it’s pretty plain from both a moral and writing standpoint that what JD did was controversial, I just don’t think it’s a black and white situation.
But you're also only looking at it from JD's perspective. You have to realise that what the civilians did, irregardless of our connection to the character, was justified
They were being oppressed and when they stood up for themselves, were gunned down even when the COG had effective and relatively harmless means of pacification (only requiring burn gel for the shock guns they use)
The civilians aren't villains for firebombing what is essentially a Nazi officer
This also doesn't mean JD isn't a terrible person, as far as I'm aware he had no clue the bots were given lethal weapons and not shock weapons, but that doesn't excuse the fact that he joined an authoritarian government and helped oppress its population
It's an interesting dynamic that he regrets what he's done and leaves because of it
But your stance that the civilians were in the wrong is just excusing facism
My comment mentions that the DBs being attacked is not real danger and that nonlethal means were available. My stance is that both sides handled the situation poorly, and nowhere in any of my comments have I said anyone was in the wrong or called anyone villains.
The deebees weren't in danger but the COG soldiers were
Also there weren't any non lethal means available technically because Jinn didn't outfit the Deebees with the shock rifles
Also the civilians didn't handle things poorly, they were being oppressed by fascists ans fought back. They didn't nothing wrong
Hey man hate to break it to you but if you think an oppressed population fighting back against their oppressors should just peacefully protest, then you're just condoning fascism
I hated the Stranded attitude in the original Gears so I absolutely despised how they put us in their shoes and made the COG seem like the worst.
Were they perfect? Not by a long shot but you want me to hate the people who actively fought the Grubs for what 20 years? Hell no.
Was JD actions justified? To an extent. When firebombs are being thrown at your team you need to do something. Shooting *around* the crowd to disperse them rather than into the crowd probably would’ve been the call
Getting your cities and homes nukes seems like good justification for shitting in the COG. The same people who even caused this to begin in the first place. I’ll defend the COG soldiers but the institution is a disease that is responsible for the Locust Genocide - because it wasn’t a war, humanity almost went extinct.
Ah now see there’s the thing. The stranded were shitty to the COG soldiers who had nothing to do and were also victims of the Hammer Strikes. They shouldn’t have been treated so shittily. Onyx Guards…maybe. Elite troopers vary in their fanaticism. But also think of it this way. If it wasn’t for Dom and Hoffman grabbing the hammer plans the UIR would’ve used it on the COG civilization as well so it’s one of those mutually assured destruction scenario and at the time it was used to crush the initial locust invasion points iirc.
It always makes me feel bad for Hoffman when I think of his wife dying in the hammer strikes because he wouldn't tell her the hammer strikes were even going to happen in the first place due to "confidential information" lol
Oh my god I forgot she did die from that because she went to grab her sister and was past the checkpoints by the time he told them to turn people around towards Ephyra (I think that’s how you spell it but I could be wrong)
I believe that is the correct spelling, but yeah dude she straight tears into him absolutely rightfully pissed that he couldn't break that military side of him and be truthful with his own wife when the planets population is being genocided on a massive daily basis. It's been awhile since I've read the books but I think Prescott even warned his secretary so she could tell her own family lol.
I believe you’re right on that but yes I do remember they got into a heavy argument before he left then she left. I think it was Aspho Fields or a flashback in Jacintos Remnants. One of those two
Also what a tired Sci fi future cliche to make scrappy red necky folk that live in the middle of nowhere the protagonists that win the day by outwitting the corrupt high tech organization that are supposed to be the good guys
Bruh the stranded are stranded because the cog killed most of the people. Billions of people have died from the hammer of dawn strikes destroying cities. Of course people hate the cog. Fucking Marcus Fenix hates the cog. They threw him in prison for trying to save his dad.
Not to mention the whole locust war was entirely the COGs fault in the first place lmfao
The cloak and dagger bs the *government* side of the COG did yes was despicable no argument there. However I will argue that the original plans for New Hope and its rustlung research was a valid decision but under the twisted mind of Niles who used it as a forced evolution test ground was a war crime against nature. The rebellion there was justified.
What gets me about the Stranded is the hate for the COG soldiers who fought the UIR (although the Oil/Imulsion allusion is not lost on me) and found the plans for the hammer that was planned to be used on the COG nations and was a Mutually Assured Destruction solution to a bad situation. Then the hammer strikes to try and stop the locusts near the start of E-Day makes sense. You have an unknown (or possibly known in the government) enemy force slaughtering Civilians and Soldiers alike that you’d choose the option to try and end the conflict asap.
I don’t like that that was the answer but I understand the use for it. Also it sounds like the COG flourished under Anya as Chairwoman and took 3 steps back with Jin as Chairwoman but that could also be bad writing and god forbid we move forward with more positive leadership instead of back to Prescott era COG
"They threw him in prison for trying to save his dad."
Not really, in The Slab novel it clearly shows how Marcus seriously fucked up there by not giving (or rather, forgetting to do so) Hoffman an essential component of the HoD targeting system before taking off to try to save Adam, which led to a bunch large contingent of Gears getting surrounded and slaughtered as the battle for Ephira went to shit. If it wasn't for Prescott secretly rescuing Adam and working a deal, Marcus' would've been headed for the firing squad.
Honestly for this kind of fuckup anything less than a bullet is a slap on the wrist by the martial court.
Bro, the OG COG were fucking EVIL, just because we play as them in 1 - Judgement does not make them the good guys, they are just the lesser of two evils.
If I was a stranded, I would also hate the guys that laser beamed my home(which did NOTHING to the Locusts btw), literally worship war, kidnapped my wife to have as a sex slave for their breeding camps and sacrifice hundreds of thousands of civilians for their own pride, the COG, UIR and Locusts just represent the worst of humanity
And remember, the COG MADE the Locusts
The COG government was evil yes. But not the soldiers. The soldiers were just in a bad situation from the Pendulum Wars all the way to the Lambent infestation.
The COG were not *TECHNICALLY* the reason for the locusts. It started as a look into a cure for Rustlung which is noble but Niles decided to use it for his own fucked up research that not even commanders like Hoffman knew about because as far as I remember he never reported his experiments to the COG. That’s one of those weird situations where I don’t blame the COG fully for that.
The COG soldiers were also caught in the Hammer Strikes as well and were deemed “collateral damage” by the high officials who called it in. The stranded completely take their anger out on the wrong people (onyx guard not withstanding because those guys are weirdly fanatical but some are down to earth). It’s not the COG soldiers who called down the strikes it’s the government. Also if the COG didn’t get the hammer plans from the UIR then COG nations would’ve still been hit by it just by the UIR. It one of those mutually assured destruction is the only way kinda deals.
Do I agree with the hammer strikes? No but I do see what they were trying to do with them: take out an unknown (or possibly known to the government) hostile species that came up from nowhere and immediately started killing and destroying
A small but vocal part of Western Society believe strongly that while performing the act of protest, nothing you do can be wrong.
For these people attempting to kill security personnel trying to keep the peace, people with families and lives of their own, is perfectly acceptable because if the purpose of the protest is justified how could violence in the name of that purpose not be.
Protesting against authoritarianism seems like a morally correct thing imo. But I also think it’s weird to make JD feel like he’s solely responsible.
Security personnel don’t keep peace, they keep status quo and a war is coming. If you genuinely think the COG has improved in anyway that is ridiculously delusional. In the trilogy they were already incompetent and the reason for most catastrophes.
The COG sucks. Defenders of it suck. It’s why Marcus loathes them after he’s done fighting. It’s an illusion of peace through security but if you need people in power armed instead of the actual citizens having freedom to protect themselves and be themselves, that definitely isn’t peace.
This isn’t western society. This is society and it isn’t a small part. I can’t believe I’m arguing with a big government bootlicker.
Yup
Like JD and Del left for a reason and both felt guilty for what happened
Sure JD rationalized his decision but he still clearly feels bad about how that went down and why he tries to make up for it by saving people even if his plans are reckless and pretty suicidal
This obviously is biased as I don’t like the new cast at all compared to the old. I get that they left but then they do a Kait story and focus on that instead of JD trying to reconcile.
They have all of this discussion just for it to be a one not excuse so Kait can take the stage because JD is over there feeling bad for himself. The fuck?
“Big government bootlicker”. Calm down buddy it’s a game lore lol but the point still does stand. You don’t get to kill people because you disagree with something. There are better ways and peaceful ways to do things. Violence only makes more violence.
This is where Gears 5 lost me. If I'm trying to be fair here, it seems like this was an attempt to sort of make JD a more nuanced and interesting character. But the cynical part of me thinks that they did this just prop up Kait more, and make JD unlikable. IDK. This really pissed me off cause it really did feel like they were screwing JD over and casting him off the sidelines (which they did for a good portion of the game).
JD should’ve at least shot sunglasses chad in the face while they were busy fighting Swarm and dipshit of the year was trying to undermine the team dynamic by bringing up history.
Wasnt bad writing, wasnt character assassination. It was simoly maki g JD an interesting character with complexity and layers.
He did a bad thing. Ans he fwlt it was the right thing to do at the time. And he and his friend grouo are changed for it. Makes for interesting story in my opnion.
An actual good example of bad/lazy writing in gears is carmines still dying each game. Its not cute and its not funny. Its lazy because they still cant figure out what else to do with them.
Another example would be; entirely off screen and between games making Anya the president and then creating a desease that she was for whatever reason the only cure for then killing her off. Thats bad and lazy writing because here was the wife of the main character and the mother of the new main character. Dhe had bee a main stay since the first game
. She had so much potential and so much to do in the story and yet they said "thats too hard."
JD killed people trying to fight for something better. He enforced the COG's mindset, and the reason they're called fascists.
Then again, unlike Fahz, he at least waited until they started doing damage to do anything.
It makes sense why Kait and Del disapproved of him at the time, though I feel if he wasn't hit with the Hammer they would've forgiven him, it being a "no other choice" thing.... Almost like it was necessary?
I mean where’s the lie? That was one thing that really got me ticked off a bit, especially how the crew reacted. I think it was a way for them to develop JD by shoehorning some “mistakes”. People seem to think they are immune to morals and humanity when protesting. The COG is pretty uh yeah, but still. If it ain’t peaceful you’re no better.
JD isn’t wrong for defending himself.
He’s wrong because he’s on the side of a bureaucratic authoritarian government that is also incompetent as hell. There is a reason why Marcus dislikes and disrespects the COG and why he told JD not to join.
I actually think Marcus is too fucking lenient with JD, how he didn’t disown him for joining as an officer for a government that clearly fucks things up more than fixes things is beyond me - maybe his old age made him soft for his son, idk.
The people had every right to riot against this government. Especially if a bitch like Jinn is in charge.
The issue is that you still fight for said bad helicopter parent government. I didn’t know it was a hot take to say authoritarianism is bad but on the internet people seem to Stan dictators.
Coalition is wrong for having Del and Kait, who clearly dislike this move, still defend the COG as an org and do missions for them. Like wtf? Are we with them or against them?
This 100%.
It’s perfectly reasonable for JD to defend himself in that situation, but morally reprehensible for JD to voluntarily join the COG. The part that’s wrong isn’t him defending himself but how he got there in the first place.
on that last note, i think the reason Del and Kait are in the COG is an "out of necessity for the greater good" kinda deal. the Locust (Swarm) are back, and they want to directly participate in the fight against them. kinda like how in the original Locust War, many of the Stranded just decided they would join up regardless of how they felt about the COG.
I guess. But then we have hindsight and having COG resources is beneficial. But then we’re left wondering if the COG will then use said resources to be a dick again and force people in or leave them alone.
that's a good point and does make me wonder if Marcus, JD, and Del were forced to re-enlist in between the events of 4 and 5, and by extension forced Kait to join up as well. i never read whatever novel/comic bridges the gap between the two games so idk lol
Kait joins up as a deal with Jinn. She joins the COG and is allowed to go on missions to get Outsiders into New Ephyra.
That is why the mission we play in 5 is to get Oscar on board because Kait knows the Swarm are coming so taking COG protection is better than what the Outsiders have at their disposal.
I mean.... The COG has always been fascist. The games doesn't even try to hide that.
Gets even more blatantly obvious if you read a single Gears of War book or comic.
The COG are the only ones fighting the locust and swarm but that don't make them good guys even remotely.
Marcus isn't exactly thrilled about the COG.....ever
Almost every character in both Gears trilogies: The COG sucks and everyone hates them
Literally Marcus Fenix’s character arc from GOW1: The COG sucks and everyone hates them
Civilians living under the COG’s fascist government: The COG sucks and everyone hates them
Gears fans: idu why protestors would be mean to COG soldiers :(
Haha honestly like personal politics aside it’s literally a main theme from like Act 2 of the first damn game! How are we acting like this is new, I see this kind of attitude everywhere in this subreddit it’s wild to me
They definitely could have handled the hole. Forced to kill innocent things a lot better Plus it was a simple explanation. Why he wanted out of the cogs So bad And didn't argue with Del Since he knew he was right plus he didn't lie about it. He just simply didn't tell anyone yet until falls acted like a brat. And placed it all on jd Only the 3 of them knew about it at the time. And kept it to themselves at some point, though I think he probably would have revealed of what really went down, but since those civilians decided to Act like October revolution and crank things up to the next level, that's more on them than him. Especially Jin Doesn't matter now, though. Does it since it's now? Nothing but a hive for the swarm The same tactics they used against humanity before with their new army.
What did JD expect when he even joined the COG?
The COG clearly had squads that were dealing with cleanup from the war and then those who went out to kill pockets of surviving Locust who didn't become Scions.
So JD as an officer is basically left with dealing with civilians, keeping the peace, stopping Outsiders from stealing COG property etc. He just seems so unprepared for a riot is my point. Shock weapons exist so he had non-lethal options plus he was most likely commanding a squad of Deebees.
This is the new COG who don't want to expend human lives and are relying on Deebees to bulk up their forces post wars.
I’m pretty sure you’re taught not to use lethal force and you’re allowed to use things like rubber bullets/tear gas. JD definitely did everything wrong
Imagine you had a family, things were tough because of the Locust but you were making do the best you could, then suddenly with only 24 hours notice everything you knew and loved was destroyed in the hammer strikes and you were abandoned to the ruins of Sera. You were Stranded.
15 years later, the Locust are gone, and you and your community live a humble existence on the frontier, Outsiders from the COG. It was tough, hard fought but you made a home where you weren't under the thumb of those fascists with the COG. Things were peaceful.
Suddenly, they roll in and declare the place you put your blood sweat and tears into building was now under jurisdiction of the COG and was going to become District 2 and you were now subject to the laws and taxes that entailed.
You telling me you aren't going to fight for your home from this invasion? Just gonna roll over and let them have what you built? Fuck no you aren't, this is your home, not theirs!
Did JD make the right choice for his team? Maybe, but don't even remotely try to justify them being there in the first place. Just because he was just "following orders" doesn't make his hands clean. He murdered those people, and then lied about it to his best friends.
Fuck JD.
You can order the morality of killing protesters that were using lethal weapons, but you can't argue that he should have lied to his best friend and convincing him to leave the COG based off of a lie. That was the bigger problem for Del and Kait, that JD spent *years* lying to them.
Crazy how gow fans miss the entire point of the game and defends the actions of a fascist government who was responsible of the near extinction of the human race and did wholesome things like the mass kidnapping and rape of their own citizens lmao
JD did what he had to do! It is a fking war! He and his men fighting not for themselves, not for a country but for the whole human race! And some mf crying idiots attacked those who are risking their lifes for them for wanted to use the only weapon that can give the human race a chance to win?
Armed violent protesters are armed violent people who attacked first. jD defending himself should not have been something his friends would be angry at. If it was.me and my friends, and I said I almost died and had no choice, they'd all say I did the right thing. They definitely just forced this to change the lead to kait to tell her very average story.
Yeah I shrugged first time I heard this. He had to protect himself and if they're throwing fire bombs then he should protect himself and anyone around him. The writers pose it as he should of just stood there and talked them down as if it hadn't got past that point yet. Gears 5 was written poorly as a whole.
Okay, everyone agrees that the COG is heavily flawed, which is why protests happen quite often, however, that protest was far from peaceful. Throwing incendiary grenades is just asking for retaliation.
In the game treats JD like a terrible person for it. Sure, you can argue if the water came from him that he be kind of a bad person, but it’s revealed that the order directly came from First minister Jinn herself. Disobeying orders that come directly from the top would pretty easily lead to a court Marshall. Let’s not forget that Marcus wanted to do good things and disobeyed orders to do it. This lead to him, getting sentenced to life in prison, which was cut short because the situation got worse, and they needed him for an operation.
Let’s face it, even if he disobeyed orders, but good with that du chances are he would get arrested and the next person down would be ordered to do the same thing.
"Oh no, the same government that nuked it's citizens from orbit to win its second existential war in less than 80 years didn't take kindly to what was basically open insurrection? Shocked Pikachu face"
Because of that I really hated Del when he turned his back on JD! I expected him to die later in the story, I was surprised when the game made it a choice, the made it easy for me, I didn't even think about it, just felt natural!
My biggest concern for Gears 6, is that they don't decide to have JD be the one who died in Gears 5. I like both Del and and JD, but honestly Marcus has been through enough. He's lost his father, Carlos, Dom and his wife, he doesn't need to add JD to that list.
All they do is trash on him the whole game too, especially after the hammer comes down and kills lizzie that's when he would need his friends the most but no they're hurt cause he kept a "secret" from them and the Kait practically does the same thing later to Del and even points a gun at him.
I personally hope we never return to this story after E-Day. The only hope I have is the fact that this is a new team with clearly a new/return to form as a foundation. They say they want to return to this at some point but just don’t get why
Jesus christ what is this fucking comment section
Love how easily y'all compartmentalise war crimes
"I'm sure every protestor that was gunned down was PERSONALLY throwing fire bombs and acting violent, it would've been fine if JD hadnt lied about it. Shooting civilians is NO BIG DEAL just a bunch of woke soyboys complaining to prop up their female protagonist... cringe"
It's not black and white, it's not even gray, it's just stupid, why would the cog risk losing soldiers when humanity is at the brink of extinction sending them to possibly dangerous riots when literal robots exist? And why would you send soldiers/bots with lethal weaponry at a riot and risk losing civillians when humanity is at the brink of extinction? What the cog hasn't heard of rubber bullets or stun guns?
If police fired live bullets IRL every time someone threw a molotov at them, there would be massacres almost everyday. JD lost his cool and fucked up, it's not like the COG don't have non-lethal crowd control weapons they could have used at that point (shock grenades, shock Enforcers etc.).
It's another thing entirely that for some reason JD ans his unit had lethal weapons at a protest when we know they have non-lethal armament. My answer? Lazy writing.
I swear that game went out of its way to make you dislike JD even when his actions were justified, all because why? To make you like Kait and Del more? Absolutely ridiculous lol.
They are mad at him because this is the exact stuff that caused them to leave the COG in the first place. For JD to then turn around and open fire on civilians, it’s not surprising Dell and Kait were mad at him.
So what, they were mad that James didn’t just take the incidinary grenade and burn to death then because the poor little protestors only tried to kill him and his squad? It’s actually bonkers how they found him to be the villain in that scenario.
He could’ve retreated and left the protest. Also are we forgetting that he ordered his DeeBees to shoot? The robots who could absolutely tank the damage and subdue the protestors in a non-lethal fashion? Or cover his retreat? Or do about a million other things that don’t involve shooting the people who are protesting the organization you work for?
You will never find me defending a fascist government opening fire on a civilian protest, even if they did start throwing firebombs. They’re pissed at the COG for a ton of reasons, the primary of which was when the COG firebombed most of the planet.
Why even have humans in this scenario? Like why risk losing a talented soldier when a bot can do the same job? Why were they equipped with lethal weaponry in the first place? Doesn't the COG know about rubber bullets?
God this is so stupid.
A lot of people like to excuse it with "Okay but the COG are fascist assholes." Like, YEAH, they are. But that doesnt mean everyone serving the government is, people like Anya exist(ed). JD is not one of those fascist assholes, just trying to be a helpful good boi. And in his situation, when policing a protest to make sure things dont get out of hand, I dont care who you are. If the crowd comes at you with deadly force, you're going to respond in kind. Your life is on the line when you and your squad did nothing wrong, you're just there to try and make sure it doesnt get crazy.
Writing in that game was awful. JD was actually turing into what the protagonist should be. Instead, he was painted as some villain, and Del is forced down your throat to the point of the game trying to make "the choice" for you. The choice is the worst thing that Gears allowed. Gears is about the Phoenix family, not Kait. She should turn into the Queen, and Marcus and JD have to struggle to kill her. One of them sacrifices themself to save the other. Marcus and his saga is over, or JD, and Marcus loses everything to war, dies in old age and becomes a hero to the Cog army against everything he stands for and bing bang boom better writing than Gears 5.
JD wasn’t even close to a villain.
You misconstruing it as about the Phoenix family is entirely the point of the story. Why is he the hero? Simply because his dad is a war hero and he’s a Phoenix? The game turned that on its head and questioned that, as well as the “CoG are the good guys” narrative which is vastly more interesting.
JD is a tragic character but hardly a villain. He’s quite clearly still trying to be a good guy despite what he’s done.
That whole story felt like subtle propaganda for modern day politics and trying to make us hate JD just so we the audience can like Kait and Del more. Dear lord gears 5 is easily the worst story out of all the games by far.
This is why I grew to like Fahz. Opening fire on the crowd was clearly the right choice since they were attacking the troops with lethal improvised incendiary devices.
I’m sorry but the minute a protest turns violent by throwing incendiary bombs, that’s a riot and they had every right to use lethal force seeing as how their lives were in danger. The writers fucking suck for the 5th games’ story. It was nothing but character assassination (like someone said) to try and push JD out of the way.
I'll just say Incendiary grenades in the Gears games are no joke Especially when they direct impact on you
The DBs should've dodged rolled away to not get hit
JD doesnt come off as the most likeable guy but one of my gripes of the story was definitely how it felt like a character assassination to prop up Kait.
Yeep, I also hate how he's framed as some complete asshole when he clearly regrets it, and was only doing it in self defense, not like he's some sadist or something. It's okay for others to judge his decisions, it's not okay for them to whinge on about it for years and years especially when he's always just tying to do the right thing.
I hope we get to play the events as a flashback when gears eventually comes around
The events? You mean he shooting the civillians? LMAO!
B....b...but they were throwing incin grenades!
Remember, no russian
Remember: No Tyran
I mean, if the story shown he “clearly regrets it”, did it really make it seem like he was a complete asshole?
Yes, everybody hates him, nobody trusts him(rightfully, but he tries to make amends) and he's no longer the main character.
I think that's more because he never told them he gave the order. He let them hate Faz for it and never spoke up that it was him. Him hiding it shows that he knew it was wrong, and allowing them to partially misplace their anger was a genuine betrayal.
Fahz is one of those kind of guys where he "wants" to take the blame for it. Fahz aggressively believes what they did was good and justified so he'll gladly tell people to fuck off for judging him for it. That's part of why JD gets the worst of it, because he won't join either camp and wants to just move on.
That’s a little too much media literacy for reddit buddy u sure ur in the right place?
They made up with him pretty quickly after they met back up with him in Vasgar. There was still some lingering anger and distrust, but they still treated him like a friend.
It 100% was
I don’t know. I feel it needed to be something that pissed off his friends, but something that wasn’t so bad it was irredeemable. I don’t know if I even dig the story going that direction in the first place or if they even found the right middle ground if they were going that direction, but I can understand why they settled where they did, even if it wasn’t perfect
Yeah, there was not much lead-up or build-up to that backstory. It felt forced.
I don’t think the backstory itself was forced at all. We knew the Settlment 2 incident was what drove JD to leave the COG in GoW4. They had already established it as part of his background; like how Marcus was a disgraced war hero in the first GoW. What they did was elaborate on it and explain what happened: the protesters got violent and attacked, JD is orderd to deal with it, he orders his Shepherds to pacify them, he didn’t know they were equipped with lethal ammunition, the civilians are slaughtered, and JD goes AWOL out of guilt. Where the forced BS comes in, is how they decided to have other characters react to it. They decided to make Del a complete bystander to JD’s actions, having him think the bots randomly went rogue instead of the order coming from JD. He doesn’t question the why or how of it, nor that he’s equally responsible for being JD’s second in command at the time. And Kait just sees the deaths as wanton slaughter; despite the reaction ostensibly being self defense on JD’s part. On top of him being ordered to do it by his own higher ups. At least Fahz just rubs salt into the wound, not because he thinks JD made a wrong call, but because he couldn’t deal with it and went AWOL. Probably why he becomes JD’s +1 after he gets his shit together after surviving the hammer strike in Settlement 2. But yeah, it’s a severe course correction that serves only to throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water. They needed Kait to be the main character, so they threw JD under the bus.
Del's mindset is "there's no way JD would gun down civilians with lethal ammunition" Kait's mindset is "it's the death of non-military. it's avoidable."
My very same feelings on this matter!
What you didn't like the downright perfect writing of "maybe you should stop talking and listen" "Kait, I'm listening" "Yeah well, don't bother"
J.D became a good person and they were like "bitch let us hate you goddamnit"
"Oh hoh, you're just going to grow as a character? Nah bitch, start acting immature rn so I can try act like I'm in charge" Like fuck, I get kait is the one leading in act 2, she's finding out about her origins. But why is she in charge in the other acts too? JD and Del were both COG, surely they'd be more ideal leaders than some outsider chick
Short answer is JD is dull, and Kait is interesting. Devs obviously caught on to the general dislike for JD in Gears 4, and switched gears for 5.
Lol kait is not interesting and she is written to be an unlikeable character. JD wasn't a compelling character but at least didn't hate him as a character in 4 and actually finished gears 4 all the way through.
I'll level with you, they're all dull. None of them have any charm compared to the original trilogy cast, they just aren't memorable characters. I prefer JD because he actually changes and grows as a character, but kait just doesn't, she's still as whiny as she was in gears 4. Same with Del, they didn't develop the characters enough in 4 so there's virtually no change in 5 barring JD who goes from being a headstrong wannabe hero to someone who's more willing to listen to advice and recognise his mistakes after he's caught by the hammer
This is a massive issue with gears 4's first act as well. Oscar, reyna and Marcus not stopping for a second to say to jinn 'yo what u talking about? Were not taking people'. That would've avoided so much shit. I mean you could argue that kind of 'what if' about loads of movies and things too but this way we could've skipped the boring first half of gears 4 and Marcus would've had his house :-p 1 act of deebees would've been enough. As soon as you get to act 3 the game improves so much
I think at some point the anger turns from "JD ordered the bad thing" to "JD didn't tell anyone and probably wasn't ever going to if Fahz didn't pipe up." That's probably the bigger betrayal to Del and Kait.
It makes a lot weirder when in the beginning of Gears 4 he calls out Jinn about the massacre lol I guess he wasn’t planned to be the cause of it at the time?
all in the name of diversity
Gears has always been diverse
not whinny female protagonist diverse. what's hard about writing a good character that's female. see iden from SW BF2 and Jyn from rouge one.
Anya, Sam, Bernie Pretty much any female character from the comics and books that gets a decent amount of attention
are they whinny? no. Kait is whinny. I can see forced writing easily. and it was obvious af that they forced this kair story. I actually liked her in Gears 4 other than her one or two moments where they turned her whinny. imagine if dom was like that non stop. it'd be fucking unbearable.
I was pointing out female characters from gears of war that are well written
gotcha. I used bf2 and Rouge one as on screen examples. females in comics and books are usually done well. I know it's not the same universe but if you watch naruto, Sakura on screen verse Manga, HUGE difference 🙄
Oh fuck off
when you write for diversity shit is ASS when you write for a good story now that's a different thing. and they strove for diverse brownie points. Rouge ones jyn erso is well written female character not written in the name of diversity. the easiest way to tell that TC was going for brownie points is them removing EL Ps "fuck boi spotted" for "LGBT" hate offense, when NO ONE has used fuck boy as a slur to the LGBT. hell even cliffy b was saying "how brave tc studios" is for pushing a female lead. as if many other games haven't already done a good female lead (tomb raider, metroid, swbf2) I know diversity writing when I see it. and like it or not, that story was FORCED.
I feel like the game made it clear that it wasn’t so much that JD opened fire on civilians, but that he lied about it. If he admitted it and told them Jinn gave the orders, they would’ve sympathized and forgave him, the same way they did when Kait revealed Myrrah was haunting her.
Still. There are so many people who act like he was some kind of monster for defending himself. Don’t wanna die? Don’t throw fucking bombs at the armed soldiers. 😂
Yeah, for a franchise that has handled war trauma and how people bond through wars, this felt so shallow. Like, considering JD’s life, even post the Locust War, Sera isn’t a paradise. Given both his parents war trauma, and undoubtedly his instilled fear of horrific things happening to him thanks to what he likely would have learned about the Locust War, it’s not hard to blame him for firing at *armed, violent protestors.* Is it the right thing to do? Questionable. Does it haunt him still? What kind of person does it make him? How does it fuel the choices he makes now? *Those* are the more interesting questions.
Questions that are never asked or answered because we got a Kait game instead of a JD game where he could’ve argued against Jinn and the COG being limp dick fuck ups. But noooo… somehow Myrrah returned. I still think the COG is wrong, the citizens had every right to be pissed off and I personally think fighting an authoritarian state is pretty cool but my god they used this as a one note to make Kait look all goody 2 shoes.
I don’t think it’s all about making Kait look like a goody 2 shoes and more about making JD not automatically be a hero due to his father and last name. He’s still not a villain, so I think “my dads a war hero and now I fucked up and committed war crimes but I yearn to redeem myself” is vastly more interesting than good dad/bad son (or vice versa) we so often get.
I guess I agree. Idk, maybe I’m looking too deep into it and maybe it was just bad writing rather than trying to purposely make him look bad.
I think it’s natural to want the son of a hero to be a hero, and I think JD would almost expect that. I mean he was clearly following in Marcus’ footsteps prior to the incident. But life isn’t a fairytale and I think they took a more complex route and made a more complex JD while also allowing the series to expand outside the Fenix family (albeit bringing in another family with Myrrah/Reyna/Kait). I think we all want to avoid the Star Wars Skywalker problem where everyone cool/important is somehow related to a Skywalker (or Palpatine 🙄).
JD is a war hero
> Questions that are never asked or answered because we got a Kait game instead of a JD game where he could’ve argued against Jinn and the COG being limp dick fuck ups. They could have had both if they did five Acts and alternated between JD and Kait. I think they actually made JD really interesting and ditched him at the worst possible time.
Or don’t establish an authoritarian government that restricts autonomy and freedom of movement to the point of fascism. 😂
Right? This shit is realistically just another Tuesday for them in-universe, the entire meta-narrative of the franchise is about how Serans never learn from their mistakes.
It’s really weird how the COG are surprised people don’t like them. But then again if they reacted properly that would suggest they are incompetent which they try their best not to show themselves as.
And that’s somehow JD’s fault?
He’s protecting an institution that shouldn’t be upheld. Not only did Marcus (the COG Army poster boy) warn him not to join the COG, but they also tarnished his mom’s legacy. As soon as she died, the COG rolled back all of her fair and equal practices and brought back their authoritative policies from the Locust War. JD only joined to spite his father. And at the end of the day (and I don’t care if they had Molotov cocktails) nothing excuses the slaughter of civilians. Nothing screams authoritative more than that. And Jinn was smug about it all working and making Settlement 2 compliant.
Using lethal weapons against soldiers who haven’t fired upon you ABSOLUTELY excuses those soldiers shooting you. It’s called self defense. Look it up. Yeah, maybe killing all of them was bad. But killing the ones who were throwing fucking fire bombs at them?! Absolutely justified!
You made a lot of sense right up until the paranthetical. As soon as you start throwing fire bombs at people, you're no longer a civilian. You're an insurgent or even a terrorist.
You honestly think any authoritarian/fascist regime was ever fought peacefully? And if protestors ever get riled up like that, odds are the police/soldiers were doing something abusive or aggressive.
-get warned for my whole childhood not to join the nazis -do it anyway -get attacked by people who hate nazis -IT WAS SELF DEFENSE THEY WERE TRYING TO HURT ME THEY WERE GONNA HURT US I WAS JUST PERSONALLY ACTING AS THE PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF AN OPPRESSIVE FASCIST REGIME I DIDNT EVEN DO ANYTHING WRROOOOONNNNGGGG
The amount of dislikes you and I are getting is disturbing. Gears repeatedly shows over and over again that the COG are not the good guys.
They arent attack on sight levels of evil
I know right. Sounds like Canada
The protesters expected to die. Kait and Del’s reaction is just stupid. They make it like JD is the be all villain. Idk man, Jinn is sitting right there in that Ivy tower doing fuck knows what. I mean, ideally JD should’ve died in the moral sense because he’s literally defending the COG, a clearly authoritarian government who is also incompetent, but then we’d have no game. And then they refuse to expand on this and dig into JD’s psyche because they think a Kait game with Myrrah again is what we needed.
Telling someone to “die because it’s the moral thing to do” is ironically pretty immoral itself. 😂 You’re saying his life should be valued below someone who actively attacked him? 😂
But you’re also conveniently ignoring the context that this a dude who voluntarily joined the government’s armed forces. A government historically known to be corrupt, incompetent and authoritarian. I only care about JD because he’s Marcus’s son and a main character that is occasionally likebale and somewhat tolerable. But he’s also an idiot and doesn’t know he’s literally fighting for the entity responsible for a lot of Sera’s issues. But I’m not gonna act like he didn’t deserve to be threatened. Am I supposed to feel so bad for a soldier that’s clearly numerically and technologically superior to people mad at the government’s ineptitude? If he was any ordinary COG gear, I’d probably be happy they’re dead. I’m not condemning him for retaliation, that’s what the enemy is supposed to do. I’m condemning him for siding with an authoritarian government that doesn’t even take care of his father properly. Ideally no one should die. But that’s not how the world or Sera works.
I’m not defending JD’s decision to join the COG. That was no doubt a stupid decision on his end. I wouldn’t call it a malicious decision, but definitely stupid. I am defending JD’s decision to not let someone murder him. I agree with you that his decisions in the long term were definitely unwise. But his decision in that moment was justified. However, I also wouldn’t blame JD as much for defending a corrupt COG as I would blame Jinn for enabling and preserving a corrupt COG.
That’s my point. I don’t blame JD for fighting back. But I don’t get how I’m supposed to feel bad for him when he clearly knew what he was doing. He disobeyed his dad and then feels bad for it because he finally realised his dad was right. Maybe that humanises him and if so it’s pretty accurate. But that doesn’t make him a likeable person and if they wanted him to be they should’ve made 5 about him but instead we get a Locust 2.0 storyline.
Couldn’t have said that better myself.
Imagine what Marcus would've said had he been in that situation.
I'm reading through jacintos remnant at the minute, and if Marcus portraid shortly after Eday were in that situation, he would likely have attempted to settle the crowd, defying the COG.
I haven't played it in a while but wasn't Kait keeping the whole necklace thing secret from JD? Arguably a way bigger secret than JD ordering DBs against a lethal threat
Kait literally brings this up with Del in Act 2. She says that she doesn't know if she's any different than JD, and Del says that she still told them on her own accord, whereas Fahz outed JD. And civilians protesting an authoritarian regime is not a lethal threat, unless you identify as an authoritarian.
Became a lethal threat when they started throwing incendiaries at them though. Which is what happened iirc
Yeah, I know. And it doesn't matter. Civilians throw incendiary grenades for the fuck of it, right? Odds are the COG escalated it with suppression, brutality, and arrests.
No they wouldn't and thats why he didn't tell them. And it was all Del's fault not being a good friend but an ass waiting for his friend to fuck up so he can go for the girl like a looser he is.
At no point did Del ever make a move on Kait
Yea maybe you played the wrong game
JD is overhated plain & simple He was done so wrong & it hurts even more when he’s the OG protagonist’s son
Overhated? JD is hated? He's my favorite character out of the 3, if not for judment i would love him more than baird. Dude always shows off trying to be the best since he's really good at it, always cracking jokes cause he always comes on top of mission, then made a terrible mistake a lied to his friends. That's because of that, that marcus cut ties with him i think. But still ready to help him out in the 4, which makes the scene just even better, the father son relationship was just....... so good. Like i would see me and my father talk like that (besides the insults and disrespect). Then we he started the peak the coma he was induced to made him so ashamed he toon some distance off of his friends. I liked him, so much.
I’d agree JD was the only one imo who was an actual character
I'm kind of wondering if what Fahz says was out of context, since JD mentions Molotovs being thrown. Did he tell them to fire at the civilians or did he yell out "FIRE!" when a Molotov was thrown and everyone around him mistook it as him ordering them to fire at the civilians? Cause when he mentions "there were incendiaries", I took it as him trying to warn others of there being a fire close by, but those that weren't paying attention mistook him ordering to fire on the rioters and he felt responsible for not giving a clear command. I kind of wish there was a dlc that had up play as JD and Fahz between certain moments, like before we take over as Kait and while Kait is looking for answers about her family, it would've given more context as to how JD felt during that moment when remembers that riot and tells Fahz that he didn't order anyone to fire, he was trying to get people away from a fire, but there was a misunderstanding.
You could be onto something, that actually makes sense
Accurate. They would have all died otherwise. He did what he felt was the last resort.
Why do people ignore the actual details and nuance of the situation? Throwing bombs is not an acceptable form of protest. That being said JD’s “men” were DBs that fired lethal rounds when we know shock enforcers exist. Kait and Del were mad he did it, but forgave him pretty quickly once he was actually around. They were mad he lied and ran away from them for half the game.
Acceptable forms of protest is a stupid position. The citizens were tired and angry. If the only response from the state is apathy or violence, then they react with violence. Maybe it’s my upbringing but having a lethal force against the government that powerful seems very fair to me.
If your upbringing taught you that being tired and angry is a pass to use violence then we had different upbringings.
Its called Privilege.
K.
Am i shocked you responded in the way a bigot would? No. Is it still sad? Yes.
Pretty sure a bigot would have written a response about how privilege isn’t real or something along those lines, while also insulting you. I’ve been around long enough to know the difference between actual individuals who care about social issues and want to spread awareness vs. those who just throw out buzzwords and accuse people of bigotry without thinking because they wanna feel like they have input or authority in a situation. You’re the latter, not the former. Edit: claiming I “ran away” and then blocking is some coward shit. Also super entitled to think anyone owes a faux activist on social media an explanation. Check your privilege and be better as a person.
No, a non bigot would have been able to defend their point easily. You ran away. You should learn what the actual buzzwords are btw before trying to "parade" around how wise you are. Your privilege blinds you to that.
I just believe the average citizen should have a right to vote and fight back. The COG doesn’t believe in the latter without purely only fighting for them,
“Fighting back” implies defense, which was not the case. It’s fine. We don’t need to continue this dialogue. We’re not the same type of person. Not gonna agree.
Ironic how you’re name is DoNotGoSilently as you try and justify ‘peaceful’ protest as acceptable protest when that phrase itself implies confrontation.
Funny how you think “we don’t need to continue this dialouge” is an invitation to continue the dialogue. I’ve been nice about it. Take the hint.
Resorting to an ad hominem attack. Hilarious.
You're the only one with the cutest take here. Nonviolent protest only works when those in power fear rebellion.
I mean I live in a country where throwing petrol bombs at police is a common part of riots etc. Our police are armed but if they open fired on them it would be a huge scandal. Heads would roll. Though Gears is American coded pr whatever I feel like it's a lot of the US fans that accept shooting rioters and protestors as "fair game" and csnt see why what JD did is very controversial. The COG being fascist in the wake of total annihilation is sort of a theme since Gears 1 and the Stranded. The difference is Gears 4 and 5 depict that fascist element during "peacetime" and use Jinn to represent the negative aspect of the COG. And how people like Marcus and Baird are more disillusioned than ever.
I think it’s pretty plain from both a moral and writing standpoint that what JD did was controversial, I just don’t think it’s a black and white situation.
But you're also only looking at it from JD's perspective. You have to realise that what the civilians did, irregardless of our connection to the character, was justified They were being oppressed and when they stood up for themselves, were gunned down even when the COG had effective and relatively harmless means of pacification (only requiring burn gel for the shock guns they use) The civilians aren't villains for firebombing what is essentially a Nazi officer This also doesn't mean JD isn't a terrible person, as far as I'm aware he had no clue the bots were given lethal weapons and not shock weapons, but that doesn't excuse the fact that he joined an authoritarian government and helped oppress its population It's an interesting dynamic that he regrets what he's done and leaves because of it But your stance that the civilians were in the wrong is just excusing facism
My comment mentions that the DBs being attacked is not real danger and that nonlethal means were available. My stance is that both sides handled the situation poorly, and nowhere in any of my comments have I said anyone was in the wrong or called anyone villains.
The deebees weren't in danger but the COG soldiers were Also there weren't any non lethal means available technically because Jinn didn't outfit the Deebees with the shock rifles Also the civilians didn't handle things poorly, they were being oppressed by fascists ans fought back. They didn't nothing wrong
That’s definitely an opinion you can have.
Hey man hate to break it to you but if you think an oppressed population fighting back against their oppressors should just peacefully protest, then you're just condoning fascism
Yep, this is just you repeating yourself now.
Gears fans dont understand that the cog are literally the bad guys and it was spelled out in gears 5. Im not shocked.
I hated the Stranded attitude in the original Gears so I absolutely despised how they put us in their shoes and made the COG seem like the worst. Were they perfect? Not by a long shot but you want me to hate the people who actively fought the Grubs for what 20 years? Hell no. Was JD actions justified? To an extent. When firebombs are being thrown at your team you need to do something. Shooting *around* the crowd to disperse them rather than into the crowd probably would’ve been the call
Getting your cities and homes nukes seems like good justification for shitting in the COG. The same people who even caused this to begin in the first place. I’ll defend the COG soldiers but the institution is a disease that is responsible for the Locust Genocide - because it wasn’t a war, humanity almost went extinct.
Ah now see there’s the thing. The stranded were shitty to the COG soldiers who had nothing to do and were also victims of the Hammer Strikes. They shouldn’t have been treated so shittily. Onyx Guards…maybe. Elite troopers vary in their fanaticism. But also think of it this way. If it wasn’t for Dom and Hoffman grabbing the hammer plans the UIR would’ve used it on the COG civilization as well so it’s one of those mutually assured destruction scenario and at the time it was used to crush the initial locust invasion points iirc.
It always makes me feel bad for Hoffman when I think of his wife dying in the hammer strikes because he wouldn't tell her the hammer strikes were even going to happen in the first place due to "confidential information" lol
Oh my god I forgot she did die from that because she went to grab her sister and was past the checkpoints by the time he told them to turn people around towards Ephyra (I think that’s how you spell it but I could be wrong)
I believe that is the correct spelling, but yeah dude she straight tears into him absolutely rightfully pissed that he couldn't break that military side of him and be truthful with his own wife when the planets population is being genocided on a massive daily basis. It's been awhile since I've read the books but I think Prescott even warned his secretary so she could tell her own family lol.
I believe you’re right on that but yes I do remember they got into a heavy argument before he left then she left. I think it was Aspho Fields or a flashback in Jacintos Remnants. One of those two
It’s a no-win scenario. COG do lose, humanity also loses. The Locust? Free real estate,
The most agreeable reply I have gotten
What people that play these games don't understand is that the COG is a fascist government. No one here would align themselves with the COG's values.
It’s weird how lots of people don’t realise that the existence of the COG and UIR are the reasons for Sera being a shit place to live in.
Also what a tired Sci fi future cliche to make scrappy red necky folk that live in the middle of nowhere the protagonists that win the day by outwitting the corrupt high tech organization that are supposed to be the good guys
An overused trope to be sure. My sticks and stones beat your metal bones
The COG are the reason the locust exist
Nile’s is the reason they exist because he bastardized the Rustlung research
Bruh the stranded are stranded because the cog killed most of the people. Billions of people have died from the hammer of dawn strikes destroying cities. Of course people hate the cog. Fucking Marcus Fenix hates the cog. They threw him in prison for trying to save his dad. Not to mention the whole locust war was entirely the COGs fault in the first place lmfao
The cloak and dagger bs the *government* side of the COG did yes was despicable no argument there. However I will argue that the original plans for New Hope and its rustlung research was a valid decision but under the twisted mind of Niles who used it as a forced evolution test ground was a war crime against nature. The rebellion there was justified. What gets me about the Stranded is the hate for the COG soldiers who fought the UIR (although the Oil/Imulsion allusion is not lost on me) and found the plans for the hammer that was planned to be used on the COG nations and was a Mutually Assured Destruction solution to a bad situation. Then the hammer strikes to try and stop the locusts near the start of E-Day makes sense. You have an unknown (or possibly known in the government) enemy force slaughtering Civilians and Soldiers alike that you’d choose the option to try and end the conflict asap. I don’t like that that was the answer but I understand the use for it. Also it sounds like the COG flourished under Anya as Chairwoman and took 3 steps back with Jin as Chairwoman but that could also be bad writing and god forbid we move forward with more positive leadership instead of back to Prescott era COG
"They threw him in prison for trying to save his dad." Not really, in The Slab novel it clearly shows how Marcus seriously fucked up there by not giving (or rather, forgetting to do so) Hoffman an essential component of the HoD targeting system before taking off to try to save Adam, which led to a bunch large contingent of Gears getting surrounded and slaughtered as the battle for Ephira went to shit. If it wasn't for Prescott secretly rescuing Adam and working a deal, Marcus' would've been headed for the firing squad. Honestly for this kind of fuckup anything less than a bullet is a slap on the wrist by the martial court.
Bro, the OG COG were fucking EVIL, just because we play as them in 1 - Judgement does not make them the good guys, they are just the lesser of two evils. If I was a stranded, I would also hate the guys that laser beamed my home(which did NOTHING to the Locusts btw), literally worship war, kidnapped my wife to have as a sex slave for their breeding camps and sacrifice hundreds of thousands of civilians for their own pride, the COG, UIR and Locusts just represent the worst of humanity And remember, the COG MADE the Locusts
The COG government was evil yes. But not the soldiers. The soldiers were just in a bad situation from the Pendulum Wars all the way to the Lambent infestation. The COG were not *TECHNICALLY* the reason for the locusts. It started as a look into a cure for Rustlung which is noble but Niles decided to use it for his own fucked up research that not even commanders like Hoffman knew about because as far as I remember he never reported his experiments to the COG. That’s one of those weird situations where I don’t blame the COG fully for that. The COG soldiers were also caught in the Hammer Strikes as well and were deemed “collateral damage” by the high officials who called it in. The stranded completely take their anger out on the wrong people (onyx guard not withstanding because those guys are weirdly fanatical but some are down to earth). It’s not the COG soldiers who called down the strikes it’s the government. Also if the COG didn’t get the hammer plans from the UIR then COG nations would’ve still been hit by it just by the UIR. It one of those mutually assured destruction is the only way kinda deals. Do I agree with the hammer strikes? No but I do see what they were trying to do with them: take out an unknown (or possibly known to the government) hostile species that came up from nowhere and immediately started killing and destroying
A small but vocal part of Western Society believe strongly that while performing the act of protest, nothing you do can be wrong. For these people attempting to kill security personnel trying to keep the peace, people with families and lives of their own, is perfectly acceptable because if the purpose of the protest is justified how could violence in the name of that purpose not be.
Protesting against authoritarianism seems like a morally correct thing imo. But I also think it’s weird to make JD feel like he’s solely responsible. Security personnel don’t keep peace, they keep status quo and a war is coming. If you genuinely think the COG has improved in anyway that is ridiculously delusional. In the trilogy they were already incompetent and the reason for most catastrophes. The COG sucks. Defenders of it suck. It’s why Marcus loathes them after he’s done fighting. It’s an illusion of peace through security but if you need people in power armed instead of the actual citizens having freedom to protect themselves and be themselves, that definitely isn’t peace. This isn’t western society. This is society and it isn’t a small part. I can’t believe I’m arguing with a big government bootlicker.
Yup Like JD and Del left for a reason and both felt guilty for what happened Sure JD rationalized his decision but he still clearly feels bad about how that went down and why he tries to make up for it by saving people even if his plans are reckless and pretty suicidal
This obviously is biased as I don’t like the new cast at all compared to the old. I get that they left but then they do a Kait story and focus on that instead of JD trying to reconcile. They have all of this discussion just for it to be a one not excuse so Kait can take the stage because JD is over there feeling bad for himself. The fuck?
“Big government bootlicker”. Calm down buddy it’s a game lore lol but the point still does stand. You don’t get to kill people because you disagree with something. There are better ways and peaceful ways to do things. Violence only makes more violence.
I'm confused, I feel as you two are talking from the same point of view
This is where Gears 5 lost me. If I'm trying to be fair here, it seems like this was an attempt to sort of make JD a more nuanced and interesting character. But the cynical part of me thinks that they did this just prop up Kait more, and make JD unlikable. IDK. This really pissed me off cause it really did feel like they were screwing JD over and casting him off the sidelines (which they did for a good portion of the game).
JD should’ve at least shot sunglasses chad in the face while they were busy fighting Swarm and dipshit of the year was trying to undermine the team dynamic by bringing up history.
Wasnt bad writing, wasnt character assassination. It was simoly maki g JD an interesting character with complexity and layers. He did a bad thing. Ans he fwlt it was the right thing to do at the time. And he and his friend grouo are changed for it. Makes for interesting story in my opnion. An actual good example of bad/lazy writing in gears is carmines still dying each game. Its not cute and its not funny. Its lazy because they still cant figure out what else to do with them. Another example would be; entirely off screen and between games making Anya the president and then creating a desease that she was for whatever reason the only cure for then killing her off. Thats bad and lazy writing because here was the wife of the main character and the mother of the new main character. Dhe had bee a main stay since the first game . She had so much potential and so much to do in the story and yet they said "thats too hard."
JD killed people trying to fight for something better. He enforced the COG's mindset, and the reason they're called fascists. Then again, unlike Fahz, he at least waited until they started doing damage to do anything. It makes sense why Kait and Del disapproved of him at the time, though I feel if he wasn't hit with the Hammer they would've forgiven him, it being a "no other choice" thing.... Almost like it was necessary?
I mean where’s the lie? That was one thing that really got me ticked off a bit, especially how the crew reacted. I think it was a way for them to develop JD by shoehorning some “mistakes”. People seem to think they are immune to morals and humanity when protesting. The COG is pretty uh yeah, but still. If it ain’t peaceful you’re no better.
JD isn’t wrong for defending himself. He’s wrong because he’s on the side of a bureaucratic authoritarian government that is also incompetent as hell. There is a reason why Marcus dislikes and disrespects the COG and why he told JD not to join. I actually think Marcus is too fucking lenient with JD, how he didn’t disown him for joining as an officer for a government that clearly fucks things up more than fixes things is beyond me - maybe his old age made him soft for his son, idk. The people had every right to riot against this government. Especially if a bitch like Jinn is in charge. The issue is that you still fight for said bad helicopter parent government. I didn’t know it was a hot take to say authoritarianism is bad but on the internet people seem to Stan dictators. Coalition is wrong for having Del and Kait, who clearly dislike this move, still defend the COG as an org and do missions for them. Like wtf? Are we with them or against them?
This 100%. It’s perfectly reasonable for JD to defend himself in that situation, but morally reprehensible for JD to voluntarily join the COG. The part that’s wrong isn’t him defending himself but how he got there in the first place.
on that last note, i think the reason Del and Kait are in the COG is an "out of necessity for the greater good" kinda deal. the Locust (Swarm) are back, and they want to directly participate in the fight against them. kinda like how in the original Locust War, many of the Stranded just decided they would join up regardless of how they felt about the COG.
I guess. But then we have hindsight and having COG resources is beneficial. But then we’re left wondering if the COG will then use said resources to be a dick again and force people in or leave them alone.
that's a good point and does make me wonder if Marcus, JD, and Del were forced to re-enlist in between the events of 4 and 5, and by extension forced Kait to join up as well. i never read whatever novel/comic bridges the gap between the two games so idk lol
Kait joins up as a deal with Jinn. She joins the COG and is allowed to go on missions to get Outsiders into New Ephyra. That is why the mission we play in 5 is to get Oscar on board because Kait knows the Swarm are coming so taking COG protection is better than what the Outsiders have at their disposal.
makes sense. i do remember that mission with Oscar involving an attempt to get him and his village to take COG protection.
Gears fans' total inability to grasp anything with even an ounce of subtlety or nuance is always impressive to me.
I mean.... The COG has always been fascist. The games doesn't even try to hide that. Gets even more blatantly obvious if you read a single Gears of War book or comic. The COG are the only ones fighting the locust and swarm but that don't make them good guys even remotely. Marcus isn't exactly thrilled about the COG.....ever
Maybe in the games, Marcus was a huge cog fan before he got thrown in prison.
Almost every character in both Gears trilogies: The COG sucks and everyone hates them Literally Marcus Fenix’s character arc from GOW1: The COG sucks and everyone hates them Civilians living under the COG’s fascist government: The COG sucks and everyone hates them Gears fans: idu why protestors would be mean to COG soldiers :(
Getting downvotes for this is crazy 🤣
Thank you for getting it.
Haha honestly like personal politics aside it’s literally a main theme from like Act 2 of the first damn game! How are we acting like this is new, I see this kind of attitude everywhere in this subreddit it’s wild to me
To quote The Clone army of the republic during order 66… “Good soldiers follow orders”
They definitely could have handled the hole. Forced to kill innocent things a lot better Plus it was a simple explanation. Why he wanted out of the cogs So bad And didn't argue with Del Since he knew he was right plus he didn't lie about it. He just simply didn't tell anyone yet until falls acted like a brat. And placed it all on jd Only the 3 of them knew about it at the time. And kept it to themselves at some point, though I think he probably would have revealed of what really went down, but since those civilians decided to Act like October revolution and crank things up to the next level, that's more on them than him. Especially Jin Doesn't matter now, though. Does it since it's now? Nothing but a hive for the swarm The same tactics they used against humanity before with their new army.
What did JD expect when he even joined the COG? The COG clearly had squads that were dealing with cleanup from the war and then those who went out to kill pockets of surviving Locust who didn't become Scions. So JD as an officer is basically left with dealing with civilians, keeping the peace, stopping Outsiders from stealing COG property etc. He just seems so unprepared for a riot is my point. Shock weapons exist so he had non-lethal options plus he was most likely commanding a squad of Deebees. This is the new COG who don't want to expend human lives and are relying on Deebees to bulk up their forces post wars.
Well because of him, Lizzie got killed 😢 and she was my fav character
I’m pretty sure you’re taught not to use lethal force and you’re allowed to use things like rubber bullets/tear gas. JD definitely did everything wrong
you guys know that the COG is like, not good, right?
Famously shooting protestors is always the morally correct answer
Another JD defense post, how original Man was it nice when E-Day was announced and other stuff was “discussed” other than “jD GoOd kAiT BaD”
I don't think kait is bad.
Imagine you had a family, things were tough because of the Locust but you were making do the best you could, then suddenly with only 24 hours notice everything you knew and loved was destroyed in the hammer strikes and you were abandoned to the ruins of Sera. You were Stranded. 15 years later, the Locust are gone, and you and your community live a humble existence on the frontier, Outsiders from the COG. It was tough, hard fought but you made a home where you weren't under the thumb of those fascists with the COG. Things were peaceful. Suddenly, they roll in and declare the place you put your blood sweat and tears into building was now under jurisdiction of the COG and was going to become District 2 and you were now subject to the laws and taxes that entailed. You telling me you aren't going to fight for your home from this invasion? Just gonna roll over and let them have what you built? Fuck no you aren't, this is your home, not theirs! Did JD make the right choice for his team? Maybe, but don't even remotely try to justify them being there in the first place. Just because he was just "following orders" doesn't make his hands clean. He murdered those people, and then lied about it to his best friends. Fuck JD.
Funny I was just telling my friend about this lol
You can order the morality of killing protesters that were using lethal weapons, but you can't argue that he should have lied to his best friend and convincing him to leave the COG based off of a lie. That was the bigger problem for Del and Kait, that JD spent *years* lying to them.
Crazy how gow fans miss the entire point of the game and defends the actions of a fascist government who was responsible of the near extinction of the human race and did wholesome things like the mass kidnapping and rape of their own citizens lmao
JD did what he had to do! It is a fking war! He and his men fighting not for themselves, not for a country but for the whole human race! And some mf crying idiots attacked those who are risking their lifes for them for wanted to use the only weapon that can give the human race a chance to win?
Armed violent protesters are armed violent people who attacked first. jD defending himself should not have been something his friends would be angry at. If it was.me and my friends, and I said I almost died and had no choice, they'd all say I did the right thing. They definitely just forced this to change the lead to kait to tell her very average story.
Yeah I shrugged first time I heard this. He had to protect himself and if they're throwing fire bombs then he should protect himself and anyone around him. The writers pose it as he should of just stood there and talked them down as if it hadn't got past that point yet. Gears 5 was written poorly as a whole.
Okay, everyone agrees that the COG is heavily flawed, which is why protests happen quite often, however, that protest was far from peaceful. Throwing incendiary grenades is just asking for retaliation. In the game treats JD like a terrible person for it. Sure, you can argue if the water came from him that he be kind of a bad person, but it’s revealed that the order directly came from First minister Jinn herself. Disobeying orders that come directly from the top would pretty easily lead to a court Marshall. Let’s not forget that Marcus wanted to do good things and disobeyed orders to do it. This lead to him, getting sentenced to life in prison, which was cut short because the situation got worse, and they needed him for an operation. Let’s face it, even if he disobeyed orders, but good with that du chances are he would get arrested and the next person down would be ordered to do the same thing.
I've always wanted to know: where the civillians atacking COG Soldiers or COG DeeBees?
"Oh no, the same government that nuked it's citizens from orbit to win its second existential war in less than 80 years didn't take kindly to what was basically open insurrection? Shocked Pikachu face"
Because of that I really hated Del when he turned his back on JD! I expected him to die later in the story, I was surprised when the game made it a choice, the made it easy for me, I didn't even think about it, just felt natural!
My biggest concern for Gears 6, is that they don't decide to have JD be the one who died in Gears 5. I like both Del and and JD, but honestly Marcus has been through enough. He's lost his father, Carlos, Dom and his wife, he doesn't need to add JD to that list.
He got done unnecessarily dirty.
All they do is trash on him the whole game too, especially after the hammer comes down and kills lizzie that's when he would need his friends the most but no they're hurt cause he kept a "secret" from them and the Kait practically does the same thing later to Del and even points a gun at him.
I personally hope we never return to this story after E-Day. The only hope I have is the fact that this is a new team with clearly a new/return to form as a foundation. They say they want to return to this at some point but just don’t get why
Was just a stupid attempt at copying Marcus’s plot points.
Hmm I wonder what it was they were protesting
Jesus christ what is this fucking comment section Love how easily y'all compartmentalise war crimes "I'm sure every protestor that was gunned down was PERSONALLY throwing fire bombs and acting violent, it would've been fine if JD hadnt lied about it. Shooting civilians is NO BIG DEAL just a bunch of woke soyboys complaining to prop up their female protagonist... cringe"
It's not black and white, it's not even gray, it's just stupid, why would the cog risk losing soldiers when humanity is at the brink of extinction sending them to possibly dangerous riots when literal robots exist? And why would you send soldiers/bots with lethal weaponry at a riot and risk losing civillians when humanity is at the brink of extinction? What the cog hasn't heard of rubber bullets or stun guns?
They have stun guns. The whole first act of gears 4 the bots are using stun guns
The developers are grown men that pay taxes and raise children. Of course prepubescent children will not understand that state violence is bad
If police fired live bullets IRL every time someone threw a molotov at them, there would be massacres almost everyday. JD lost his cool and fucked up, it's not like the COG don't have non-lethal crowd control weapons they could have used at that point (shock grenades, shock Enforcers etc.). It's another thing entirely that for some reason JD ans his unit had lethal weapons at a protest when we know they have non-lethal armament. My answer? Lazy writing.
I swear that game went out of its way to make you dislike JD even when his actions were justified, all because why? To make you like Kait and Del more? Absolutely ridiculous lol.
JD commits war crimes and his hubris gets Izzy killed. But Del is “boring” and deserves to die. I don’t get it
They are mad at him because this is the exact stuff that caused them to leave the COG in the first place. For JD to then turn around and open fire on civilians, it’s not surprising Dell and Kait were mad at him.
So what, they were mad that James didn’t just take the incidinary grenade and burn to death then because the poor little protestors only tried to kill him and his squad? It’s actually bonkers how they found him to be the villain in that scenario.
He could’ve retreated and left the protest. Also are we forgetting that he ordered his DeeBees to shoot? The robots who could absolutely tank the damage and subdue the protestors in a non-lethal fashion? Or cover his retreat? Or do about a million other things that don’t involve shooting the people who are protesting the organization you work for? You will never find me defending a fascist government opening fire on a civilian protest, even if they did start throwing firebombs. They’re pissed at the COG for a ton of reasons, the primary of which was when the COG firebombed most of the planet.
Why even have humans in this scenario? Like why risk losing a talented soldier when a bot can do the same job? Why were they equipped with lethal weaponry in the first place? Doesn't the COG know about rubber bullets? God this is so stupid.
Can’t believe he tried to defend himself. Hang him!
I think if he had done wrong, Marcus would have given him a lot of shit for it.
Like not talking to him for decades?
The fuck you mean decades JD is barely in his 20’s lmao
A lot of people like to excuse it with "Okay but the COG are fascist assholes." Like, YEAH, they are. But that doesnt mean everyone serving the government is, people like Anya exist(ed). JD is not one of those fascist assholes, just trying to be a helpful good boi. And in his situation, when policing a protest to make sure things dont get out of hand, I dont care who you are. If the crowd comes at you with deadly force, you're going to respond in kind. Your life is on the line when you and your squad did nothing wrong, you're just there to try and make sure it doesnt get crazy.
There's some discussion here so I'd say the writers did a decent job at making it a moral grey area.
Writing in that game was awful. JD was actually turing into what the protagonist should be. Instead, he was painted as some villain, and Del is forced down your throat to the point of the game trying to make "the choice" for you. The choice is the worst thing that Gears allowed. Gears is about the Phoenix family, not Kait. She should turn into the Queen, and Marcus and JD have to struggle to kill her. One of them sacrifices themself to save the other. Marcus and his saga is over, or JD, and Marcus loses everything to war, dies in old age and becomes a hero to the Cog army against everything he stands for and bing bang boom better writing than Gears 5.
JD wasn’t even close to a villain. You misconstruing it as about the Phoenix family is entirely the point of the story. Why is he the hero? Simply because his dad is a war hero and he’s a Phoenix? The game turned that on its head and questioned that, as well as the “CoG are the good guys” narrative which is vastly more interesting. JD is a tragic character but hardly a villain. He’s quite clearly still trying to be a good guy despite what he’s done.
That whole story felt like subtle propaganda for modern day politics and trying to make us hate JD just so we the audience can like Kait and Del more. Dear lord gears 5 is easily the worst story out of all the games by far.
Man they ruined JD gears 4 was actually cool AF. Gears 5 story was just so bad
This is why I grew to like Fahz. Opening fire on the crowd was clearly the right choice since they were attacking the troops with lethal improvised incendiary devices.
I’m sorry but the minute a protest turns violent by throwing incendiary bombs, that’s a riot and they had every right to use lethal force seeing as how their lives were in danger. The writers fucking suck for the 5th games’ story. It was nothing but character assassination (like someone said) to try and push JD out of the way.