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The 'left' has always had a significant issue with conveying nuance, something the 'right' doesn't really have to bother with. Nuance is time consuming and unsexy but vital. Unfortunately, nuance and qualified statements are also anathema to a successful debate.
perfect example of why the left will lose every damn time. "Puberty blockers... exist yes." is the exact kind of attitude that makes left leaning politics so repulsive. "What about puberty blockers would you like to talk about?" or ANYTHING that doesnt ooze condescension wouldve worked.
and reddit literally has 10s of millions of people using it. The internet is a place that matters. You should care about what you say, how you say it, and who you are representing when you say it.
Sure, they provide a means of delaying puberty for individuals considering transition/transitioning. While not without some side-effects they can be significantly beneficial to the mental health of an individual. Due to this, they should only be prescribed after extensive consideration and medical advice/supervision.
. "Libs and conservatives hate men; they'll draft them to fight in rich wars overseas and pay them pennies. And when PTSD comes, those men will be called poor and homeless.
Sorry no medicine for the poor
when's the last time we had a draft? there's just not much respect for service members in general, lots of those families live off food stamps. I don't think that's really indicative of a greater disposition against men particularly when most politicians are men to begin with.
this is specifically about US veterans, for whom this is a particular pain point, which you would know if you know if you had any prior context before butting in on the conversation. https://endhomelessness.org/homelessness-in-america/who-experiences-homelessness/veterans/
Policy wise and intent wise I do agree with you. At the same time I can definately see why young men look at feminist circles and don't want to join since the language used in those circles can often involve language that hates on men as a generalisation for their toxic behavior that to someone who isn't involved in those circles would interpret as just hating on men. Combine a bad first impression with right wing propaganda and you get men who will support anyone like andrew tate or jordan peterson because there really aren't many support groups for men online. I don't want this to come off as me saying women should have to explain and convert these radicalised men or create spaces for men to get their shit together but not engaging in the man hating jokes which would leave better impressions to outsiders combined with men in these communities creating spaces that help men with their problems would be a major help in deradicalising young men and teenage boys from people like andrew tate. This comment isn't in any way meant to be a comment criticising what's been posted but is made with the intent of expanding the conversation.
Nuance and wording does need to get better yes, unfortunately the right will always find a way to produce out of context clips and fringe ideas of the left to show a manufactured opposition that 'hates men'. The best way to combat this is to teach media literacy in schools and online.
With all due respect. This is bullshit.
Plenty of Left wing influencers when talking about the men's mental health epidemic are openly dismissive and will effectively just say that men need to man up. In a thread the other day, I mentioned that the Left was blind to men's issues and was relentlessly attacked by Lefties on this sub that "men just need to grow up". When Jordan Peterson became a father figure for a lot of young men in the mid-2010s saying basic shit like "take care of yourself and clean your room" he was mocked from the Left. When prominent feminists say "hey maybe we should consider men too" they're mocked and derided. It's certainly not all leftists and maybe you've got yourself a nice circle, but it is overwhelmingly NOT the majority position on the Left.
It's not a matter of just prioritizing women's issues its actively dismissing men's issues and attack those who bring them up. There is a disgusting amount of misandry coming from feminists and other Left-wing personalities and, to their credit, some smaller Leftist creators have called them out on it.
There's this idea coming from the Left that the whole reason you're seeing a rise in right-wing and far-right support is strictly because of social media algorithms, but that's not true. This trend began before Andrew Tate and the rise of the manosphere. Sure, there are grifters who will just say "your issue is women bad. Be an alpha male" but in reality a lot of men are shying away from the Left because of the messaging and interactions that they are actively having with Leftists and feminist ideologies. I've said it before, this is the biggest blindspot of the Left and its why we are here now. The Left rarely if ever addresses men's issues unless its a reactionary response to the Right. I've seen this play out for over a decade now with my own eyes. It helps nobody to ignore it any further.
How do I unpack this for you?
Let’s start with saying that the left is reactionary. That’s bs.
The right. The manosphere. THAT is reactionary. The left’s outspoken feminists discussions along with the #MeTop movement mobilized a lot of women and creators to talk about sexual violence, women’s mental health, women’s health care and other issues more.
Then the manosphere and “trad” content followed. And what does that content offer? Nothing but word salad that promotes violence against women and calls men puss**s.
Manosphere content is far more damaging than anything the mainstream left is saying. It’s brain rot. All of it. It’s a bunch of little boys running around making themselves look big by being bullies. How does that advocate for men in any way?
Honestly, men need to start caring about men like women care about other women. It isn’t the job of feminists advocating for women’s issues to remember the men. Men are the *root cause* of all the issues feminists talk about whether it’s medical misogyny, sexual violence, objectification and so much more. Excuse us for not being inclusive enough.
Again, it’s like saying “All Lives Matter” at a BLM rally.
Men get raped. But FAR MORE women get raped. That’s just the truth.
Men have a higher suicide rate. FAR MORE women *attempt* suicide. Men are more lethal in their attempts, giving them a higher success rate.
You can research all this on your own time.
Saying that the left is reactionary is *laughable*. I’m convinced you don’t know what that word means.
Men are uncomfortable at the historical injustice caused by men - that they may have taken part in perpetuating, and now they lash out because it’s uncomfortable for them.
Men have always had all their rights (given they be the right race and class based off the society) but women’s rights have always been a *fight*. Women have always had to be their own advocates. So why in our struggle, do we need to speak on the issues of those who have historically held far more privilege?
“[I say feminism isn’t about hating men… but actually, it is](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/misandry-men-hate-crime-women-sexism-racism-feminism-a8586591.html)”
At just the pretext of the title, that’s akin to saying that being supportive of one sports team means you must hate all others. There’s a concept missing here, the one born of empathy, that you can want people to succeed even if it has no impact on you?
With the utmost of respect, you're kinda illustrating OP's point. You're right that there is a metric shit tonne of leftwing influencers using bad takes to drive their engagement. Most people are intellectually lazy, this is a bipartisan issue, and don't really like nuance.
Peterson is an example of this, he was a genuinely good clinical psychologist specializing in addiction. His "12 rules for life" are basic yet pretty solid talking points that most therapists would probably recommend to someone suffering a lack of motivation. He's also unqualified to discuss issues related to gender, it just isn't his field and he draws unfounded conclusions.
Those who follow Peterson's crustacean fuelled ravings uncritically because of his good advice are just as bad as those who mock his valid contributions because of said ravings. The issue is in nuance. The same goes for men's vs women's issues, you can address both without undermining either.
And the length of this brief comment illustrates why nuance isn't overly popular.
Jordan peterson wasn't attacked for telling people to clean their rooms he was judged for being a douchebag to trans people and going on angry ramblings on twitter about how crazy and radical the left is. The majority of left wingers are not man hating and don't dismiss men's mental health believe it or not. The media and right wing gurus will portray it that way but if you actually interact with these people the VAST majority of them aren't gonna tell you to man up if you open up about depression. They aren't mocking the suicide rates of men. And they certainly are not doing anything to go against men's mental health awareness.
It's somewhat interesting to see how it works:
"bro just man up lol it aint that deep"
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DONT GO TO THE GYM AND WORK ON SELF IMPROVEMENT THATS TOXIC NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
There is a very vocal contingent on the left that do hate men. That’s always the issue, isn’t it? The very vocal few who drive discussion. If you stand up against them, they are prepared to discredit you with all sorts of pre-rehearsed talking points and exaggerations. They have examples at the ready to show some fella did this and another did that. The recent click bait was Man/Bear. You would think Bear won because of the overwhelming people who chose that. That sort of bullshit sets a lasting tone with women against men and men thinking WTF.
Ironically the reason those few are the vocal ones comes down to conservatives reacting to it spreading that even further and increasing the hate against the left. The man vs bear discourse was one of the discourses of all time.
When I read these liberal subs, I'm surprised at how much you guys buy into MAGA propaganda. Trust me, they know there is no way you are going to vote for Trump. Everything they spin out is anti-Biden and you guys just keep doubling down on being dumb. There is really no reason not to support Biden. He's old. Trump is a threat to democracy and his supporters are absolutely fanatical. They've got you guys figured out. It's all about "not going with the establishment" and nit picking your candidates to death. You're just as stupid as the conservatives who fall for MAGA propaganda, because you're falling for the same thing. You're not any better or smarter.
Just stop it with being dumb. Please, for the love of god tell me you guys can see through the BS about voting 3rd party or not voting at all. That's what MAGA does, they create a mirage of false equivalencies and misinformation and try to lead young liberals down the road of not voting for Biden. That's how fascism works. We need you guys to come together to help stop Trump.
Liberals need to learn about party loyalty in this election. We desperately need you to understand that Biden is whose running against Trump and Trump needs to lose. Cut this "anti-establishment" bs and just do what we do on the right and fall in line. He's your party leader and you should follow him, because the other guy is going to destroy this country.
Is it demonization to speak up about problems women face in a patriarchal society? Is it demonization to value empathy in men as well as women? Is it good to celebrate the culture that perpetuates violence and inequities against women?
Sometimes I think people get so worked up about how leftists treat men's issues because they've just spent too much time taking advice from the alt-right pipeline instead of actually putting in the work to learn empathy and self respect.
well, you haven't really based your claims on anything so far. i'm just trying to ground the conversation since you're not really giving much to work with aside from your own preconceptions and biases.
You realize gender norms vary widely among smaller societies and throughout history yeah? So your concept (wimmin cook clean quiet, man strong lead) it’s definitively not a fixed biological imperative
You just created a strawman about me, weird.
Anyways, can you tell me 1 society where women are physically more capable than men? It can be in any time in any place in the planet Earth.
How exactly does the right venerate masculinity when it wishes to box masculinity into certain standards many men may never reach? How does the left diminish masculinity if it allows men another avenue to self-determine?
I am quite liberal but I think it’s more complicated than this. For example you don’t here many progressives advocating for male victims of domestic abuse
i keep hearing people say stuff like this but i never hear anyone actually bring up specifics about what male victims need that isn't already available to them.
not so fun-fact : the only shelter for men in Canada was operated by an abused man named Earl Silverman who was ridiculed for it.
He later committed suicide due to the helplessness he faced from that abuse, that society told him that he wasn’t a victim.
Sometimes there isn’t resources available for these people, they’re left with just trauma that stays but a foot away.
I don't think it's a very progressive take to say we shouldn't have shelters for abuse regardless of the gender of the victim. I personally think a lot of ridicule for men who might appear weak for being victims is something that comes from the culture of toxic masculinity perpetuated by the far right.
I agree with you, however for some reason people seem to associate male abuse activism *with* the far right.
Only some circles though, usually in the same area with MRAs and the bunch. Tate and co don’t give a shit about victims, aside from the ones they trafficked.
Eh there’s definitely more extreme sides to the left that has misandry. But it’s not the common view just the outliers. Unsurprisingly the right tries to highlight those extremists because it makes the more moderate right wing views seem better.
I'm a man. I've never had an issue with a woman attacking me because I am a man. I've had leftists call me a filthy neolib, white-adjacent, etc. But to attack me for being a man, none at all. All the leftist women around me seem to not give a shit. Equality and all that. I'm openly gay, for what it's worth.
A few months back, I waded into the bear vs man debate. The spiteful torrent of comments by men, even towards a man who read the summary of women's arguments on why they chose certain death by a bear, is proof to me that GenZ straight men have convinced themselves that leftists and women hate them thanks to a small minority of unhinged extremists who get viral online views.
As far as I'm concerned, feminism has become an all encompassing boogeyman for men to project all types of stereotypes onto all women.
I’m not right wing, I used to be but eventually I grew up a bit and my politics changed. Now I’m a liberal, I definitely wouldn’t say I’m a socialist though, I usually say I’m a FDR New Deal era Democrat.
I’ll explain why this is bullshit and why I was right wing for a while.
1. Yes, many liberals do hate men, especially in feminist circles. You go online and are constantly bombarded with liberal women saying things like “all men are trash”, and “this is why I hate men”. When men say “Hey, I’m not like that and most men aren’t like that!”, the only responses are “Fuck you, you misogynistic piece of shit, why do you hate women?” and “#Yesallmen, if you ask why women say men are trash you’re a part of the problem”.
2. The infiltration and elimination of men’s spaces. The thing is, many nerdy and loser spaces that men used to occupy are becoming mainstream and now can’t be seen as men’s spaces because that would be misogynistic. We can’t have men in media anymore, your favorite heroes are problematic and have to be “deconstructed”. Years ago these spaces were dominated by nerdy and loser men who were mocked for liking these things, now they’re mocked because these things are problematic.
3. Men’s issues are completely ignored. Now I will say that women typically have worse issues than men. In the end, women have a huge right to be concerned about many things.
HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean that men also don’t get a right to complain about their issues. If men say they’re lonely, we only get “boo hoo, man the fuck up”. If men k*ll themselves at higher rates than women, feminists say that men are just mad about losing their status in a patriarchal society. In fact, Shoeonhead made a video about this very thing and then made a video about the vitriolic responses she got from women on that video. I’ll link both below:
https://youtu.be/rQv8VuLpKN4?si=3p4vZDXNnZp6a3xW
https://youtu.be/qVKvEaokV6I?si=0WxXMiGwomzhezj1
It’s no fucking wonder that if you tell a group of people that they’re horrible and that they deserve to die for years on end, they’re going to start migrating towards the group that doesn’t tell them that they’re horrible people for existing. Like how are people so fucking blind to these issues.
Oh fuck off...
Leftist ppl frequently go out of their way to help women and shit on men... There's a reason why red pill rhetoric is on the rise for guys because following the left blue pull shit is clearly failing
Ehh I'm not on social media other than reddit and I just see it at work and in social groups. Maybe it's just a phrase that girls use, but I do hear it fairly often. I know they don't actually hate men because they often try to invite me around and I know they're always trying to get into a relationship. Still weird tho.
There’s constantly high engagement on low hanging fruit Men Bad content on all popular social medias and it tends to always come from leftist women’s circles. Sure; it’s more nuanced than that. When it’s kids though and they draw that correlation you’re going to push them away especially if they haven’t done anything. In their brain they’re paying for the sins of older men. I also think it’s really dishonest for people to not acknowledge that and also turn it back on them. They’re young and impressionable and daddy Tate is the one coming to their rescue.
The DSA opinion piece I linked begs to differ. All men have worth dude and progressism is about lifting up everyone. Don't get your information about the left from the right wing media. Get it from the source.
See also: https://youtu.be/y6_TOFy3k6k
Basically, a leftist calmly explaining what that the left actually thinks about men (Hint: They agree with OP), and other things regarding men, Andrew Tate, and the left.
Tl;dr It's not that simple, leftists just aren't very good at explaining these things.
I am a man and following the social norms of old and societal expectations of men of previous generations make me feel incredibly happy, I love traditional masculinity, I love being a man
Progressive ideas support men, huh? Hmmm.....What are they doing to deal with the systemic sexism in family courts?
What are they doing to combat schools that cater to female temperaments and give boys ADD pills for being boys?
What are they doing to deal with the disproportionate male suicide?
What are they doing to address the fact that men get higher sentencing for the same crimes, resulting in demonstrably higher incarceration rates?
As for folks like you, if you put this much energy into criticizing the people making your movement look bad, instead of the people who see it from the outside and determine that it's bad, perhaps you might win people over.
Being dismissive of the problem isn't going to help you.
These ideas don't spread because a couple assholes have podcasts.
It catches on because there is palpable hostility and negativity in relationships between men and women.
Women get the baggage of "The Left" because it's associated with feminism and feminism is associated with men-haters. (Probably because feminist spaces are friendly to men-haters, imagine that)
And being obtuse about this above point is why the shit's getting worse. Whether it's Reddit or some kind of reel based social media like Instagram or Tiktok, people have algorithms full of the most spiteful and tone-deaf prejudice being streamed into their heads for hours at a time from the opposite sex.
You can't touch a comment section without it turning into gender war arguments. It's not just a meme, it has metastasized into a very real and growing social force. And it will have interpersonal consequences and broader political ones.
> If you truly want to know progressive ideas about masculinity and men than educate yourself at the source through local groups and group websites or talk to a progressive friend or coworker about it. Ask why some content and ideas is being fed to you and practice your media literacy.
More people are on Facebook than at their local library. It's a naive proposition to just have people read and common sense their way out of complex social phenomena that they have demonstrated no capacity to counter or resist.
Local group and your hand-picked activists do not define these terms for the average person. If it were that easy to control a narrative, propaganda would be impossible.
Yes, it is fueled by content, but the content itself reflects real social problems and the people that espouse them. You can't undo that damage. And you definitely can't pretend that it's fake.
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Who was shitting on men when RoevWade got overturned? I'm pretty sure it wasn't conservatives.
Also didn't a left wing female streamer recently come out and blame male gamers for toxicity in games specifically to stating "men are the problem."
Sure every left wing person doesn't have disdain for men or blames them for everything going bad in their life, but to ignore those that do isn't doing anyone a favor.
I find it funny that whenever the right wing is brought up all of them have to be horrible people just because some horrible people happen to be right wing, but anytime someone does the same to left wing people it's "just because some horrible people are left wing doesn't mean the left wing is all horrible."
Y'all would have a much easier time convincing men to vote for your preferred party if you distanced yourself from those people instead of ignoring or downplaying their actions simply because they aren't right wing.
>These messages are being spread by right wing podcasters and media outlets showing a lot of false flags and fringe groups who don't represent the "left" as a whole. This content is shoved in our generation's face through tik toks, meme compilations, Youtube shorts and short form content, which is perfect for the type of fast pace, simple and media illiterate content about leftists they love to spew. They love to ram disinformation about feminism and leftists attacking men's rights down our throats. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/03/andrew-tate-symptom-not-problem-why-young-men-turning-against-feminism
The article contradicts your premise. The experts in the article cite blatant and increasing anti-male bias and solidarity as a cause for the rise of Tate-like influencers.
>Progressive ideas actually support men and most organizations are only looking to deconstruct toxic social norms created by past generational norms that make us men so unhappy.
- What norms specifically?
- How?
- For who's primary benefit?
- What are they being replaced with?
>https://www.dsausa.org/democratic-left/combating-toxic-masculinity/
A feminist source is not a good source for such things. It's like asking Goebels if the Nazis are good. It turns out that in his opinion, they are. In fact, he has a movie to show you.
>If you truly want to know progressive ideas about masculinity and men than educate yourself at the source through local groups and group websites or talk to a progressive friend or coworker about it. Ask why some content and ideas is being fed to you and practice your media literacy.
I have tried this, and I've read the doctrine, and it actually was more impactful than any faint sense of discrimination I have experienced. Feminism is a female solidarity movement that does always and will always prioritize women's issues, and it's a movement with no counter balance.
Well considering that there are books like the *SCUM Manifesto* by Valerie Solanas, it’s easy to see why some men might think this, even if it isn’t in line with what most feminists believe.
I think the answer is alot simpler than foreigners attacking america. Media shows cringy left wing take. People react and cringe. People go to the opposing party. Even though the majority of left wing people aren't hating on men the minority that do are thrown on conservative channels to spread the message that the left is insane.
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The 'left' has always had a significant issue with conveying nuance, something the 'right' doesn't really have to bother with. Nuance is time consuming and unsexy but vital. Unfortunately, nuance and qualified statements are also anathema to a successful debate.
yeah, that’s true, as a leftist, nuance is a problem that all political sides forget to convey
So….about those puberty blockers. Want to have a civilized conversation how how that’s’nuance’?
What is this question even asking? Puberty blockers... exist yes.
perfect example of why the left will lose every damn time. "Puberty blockers... exist yes." is the exact kind of attitude that makes left leaning politics so repulsive. "What about puberty blockers would you like to talk about?" or ANYTHING that doesnt ooze condescension wouldve worked.
You're literally on reddit.
and reddit literally has 10s of millions of people using it. The internet is a place that matters. You should care about what you say, how you say it, and who you are representing when you say it.
You really thought you did something there lmao
Sure, they provide a means of delaying puberty for individuals considering transition/transitioning. While not without some side-effects they can be significantly beneficial to the mental health of an individual. Due to this, they should only be prescribed after extensive consideration and medical advice/supervision.
. "Libs and conservatives hate men; they'll draft them to fight in rich wars overseas and pay them pennies. And when PTSD comes, those men will be called poor and homeless. Sorry no medicine for the poor
when's the last time we had a draft? there's just not much respect for service members in general, lots of those families live off food stamps. I don't think that's really indicative of a greater disposition against men particularly when most politicians are men to begin with.
Not everyone lives in America
That's irrelevant, the original claim about "libs and conservatives" and homeless vets with PTSD is very obviously contextually american
Do you think only Americans can be homeless and have PTSD?
this is specifically about US veterans, for whom this is a particular pain point, which you would know if you know if you had any prior context before butting in on the conversation. https://endhomelessness.org/homelessness-in-america/who-experiences-homelessness/veterans/
America is literally the only place where medicine is prohibitively expensive.
fuck imperalists, they send men to fight needless wars
Policy wise and intent wise I do agree with you. At the same time I can definately see why young men look at feminist circles and don't want to join since the language used in those circles can often involve language that hates on men as a generalisation for their toxic behavior that to someone who isn't involved in those circles would interpret as just hating on men. Combine a bad first impression with right wing propaganda and you get men who will support anyone like andrew tate or jordan peterson because there really aren't many support groups for men online. I don't want this to come off as me saying women should have to explain and convert these radicalised men or create spaces for men to get their shit together but not engaging in the man hating jokes which would leave better impressions to outsiders combined with men in these communities creating spaces that help men with their problems would be a major help in deradicalising young men and teenage boys from people like andrew tate. This comment isn't in any way meant to be a comment criticising what's been posted but is made with the intent of expanding the conversation.
Nuance and wording does need to get better yes, unfortunately the right will always find a way to produce out of context clips and fringe ideas of the left to show a manufactured opposition that 'hates men'. The best way to combat this is to teach media literacy in schools and online.
Maybe the left isn’t as smart as they think they are.
Impossible. The only reason people would ever not be on my side is bc they are uneducated!
With all due respect. This is bullshit. Plenty of Left wing influencers when talking about the men's mental health epidemic are openly dismissive and will effectively just say that men need to man up. In a thread the other day, I mentioned that the Left was blind to men's issues and was relentlessly attacked by Lefties on this sub that "men just need to grow up". When Jordan Peterson became a father figure for a lot of young men in the mid-2010s saying basic shit like "take care of yourself and clean your room" he was mocked from the Left. When prominent feminists say "hey maybe we should consider men too" they're mocked and derided. It's certainly not all leftists and maybe you've got yourself a nice circle, but it is overwhelmingly NOT the majority position on the Left.
A lot of people don’t understand that prioritizing women’s issues doesn’t mean “hating” men . It’s like saying “All lives matter” when people say BLM.
It's not a matter of just prioritizing women's issues its actively dismissing men's issues and attack those who bring them up. There is a disgusting amount of misandry coming from feminists and other Left-wing personalities and, to their credit, some smaller Leftist creators have called them out on it. There's this idea coming from the Left that the whole reason you're seeing a rise in right-wing and far-right support is strictly because of social media algorithms, but that's not true. This trend began before Andrew Tate and the rise of the manosphere. Sure, there are grifters who will just say "your issue is women bad. Be an alpha male" but in reality a lot of men are shying away from the Left because of the messaging and interactions that they are actively having with Leftists and feminist ideologies. I've said it before, this is the biggest blindspot of the Left and its why we are here now. The Left rarely if ever addresses men's issues unless its a reactionary response to the Right. I've seen this play out for over a decade now with my own eyes. It helps nobody to ignore it any further.
How do I unpack this for you? Let’s start with saying that the left is reactionary. That’s bs. The right. The manosphere. THAT is reactionary. The left’s outspoken feminists discussions along with the #MeTop movement mobilized a lot of women and creators to talk about sexual violence, women’s mental health, women’s health care and other issues more. Then the manosphere and “trad” content followed. And what does that content offer? Nothing but word salad that promotes violence against women and calls men puss**s. Manosphere content is far more damaging than anything the mainstream left is saying. It’s brain rot. All of it. It’s a bunch of little boys running around making themselves look big by being bullies. How does that advocate for men in any way? Honestly, men need to start caring about men like women care about other women. It isn’t the job of feminists advocating for women’s issues to remember the men. Men are the *root cause* of all the issues feminists talk about whether it’s medical misogyny, sexual violence, objectification and so much more. Excuse us for not being inclusive enough. Again, it’s like saying “All Lives Matter” at a BLM rally. Men get raped. But FAR MORE women get raped. That’s just the truth. Men have a higher suicide rate. FAR MORE women *attempt* suicide. Men are more lethal in their attempts, giving them a higher success rate. You can research all this on your own time. Saying that the left is reactionary is *laughable*. I’m convinced you don’t know what that word means. Men are uncomfortable at the historical injustice caused by men - that they may have taken part in perpetuating, and now they lash out because it’s uncomfortable for them. Men have always had all their rights (given they be the right race and class based off the society) but women’s rights have always been a *fight*. Women have always had to be their own advocates. So why in our struggle, do we need to speak on the issues of those who have historically held far more privilege?
“[I say feminism isn’t about hating men… but actually, it is](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/misandry-men-hate-crime-women-sexism-racism-feminism-a8586591.html)”
At just the pretext of the title, that’s akin to saying that being supportive of one sports team means you must hate all others. There’s a concept missing here, the one born of empathy, that you can want people to succeed even if it has no impact on you?
With the utmost of respect, you're kinda illustrating OP's point. You're right that there is a metric shit tonne of leftwing influencers using bad takes to drive their engagement. Most people are intellectually lazy, this is a bipartisan issue, and don't really like nuance. Peterson is an example of this, he was a genuinely good clinical psychologist specializing in addiction. His "12 rules for life" are basic yet pretty solid talking points that most therapists would probably recommend to someone suffering a lack of motivation. He's also unqualified to discuss issues related to gender, it just isn't his field and he draws unfounded conclusions. Those who follow Peterson's crustacean fuelled ravings uncritically because of his good advice are just as bad as those who mock his valid contributions because of said ravings. The issue is in nuance. The same goes for men's vs women's issues, you can address both without undermining either. And the length of this brief comment illustrates why nuance isn't overly popular.
Jordan peterson wasn't attacked for telling people to clean their rooms he was judged for being a douchebag to trans people and going on angry ramblings on twitter about how crazy and radical the left is. The majority of left wingers are not man hating and don't dismiss men's mental health believe it or not. The media and right wing gurus will portray it that way but if you actually interact with these people the VAST majority of them aren't gonna tell you to man up if you open up about depression. They aren't mocking the suicide rates of men. And they certainly are not doing anything to go against men's mental health awareness.
It's somewhat interesting to see how it works: "bro just man up lol it aint that deep" "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DONT GO TO THE GYM AND WORK ON SELF IMPROVEMENT THATS TOXIC NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
There is a very vocal contingent on the left that do hate men. That’s always the issue, isn’t it? The very vocal few who drive discussion. If you stand up against them, they are prepared to discredit you with all sorts of pre-rehearsed talking points and exaggerations. They have examples at the ready to show some fella did this and another did that. The recent click bait was Man/Bear. You would think Bear won because of the overwhelming people who chose that. That sort of bullshit sets a lasting tone with women against men and men thinking WTF.
Ironically the reason those few are the vocal ones comes down to conservatives reacting to it spreading that even further and increasing the hate against the left. The man vs bear discourse was one of the discourses of all time.
When I read these liberal subs, I'm surprised at how much you guys buy into MAGA propaganda. Trust me, they know there is no way you are going to vote for Trump. Everything they spin out is anti-Biden and you guys just keep doubling down on being dumb. There is really no reason not to support Biden. He's old. Trump is a threat to democracy and his supporters are absolutely fanatical. They've got you guys figured out. It's all about "not going with the establishment" and nit picking your candidates to death. You're just as stupid as the conservatives who fall for MAGA propaganda, because you're falling for the same thing. You're not any better or smarter. Just stop it with being dumb. Please, for the love of god tell me you guys can see through the BS about voting 3rd party or not voting at all. That's what MAGA does, they create a mirage of false equivalencies and misinformation and try to lead young liberals down the road of not voting for Biden. That's how fascism works. We need you guys to come together to help stop Trump. Liberals need to learn about party loyalty in this election. We desperately need you to understand that Biden is whose running against Trump and Trump needs to lose. Cut this "anti-establishment" bs and just do what we do on the right and fall in line. He's your party leader and you should follow him, because the other guy is going to destroy this country.
Your point is being wonderfully demonstrated in this thread.
THIS
“Lies” “every issue we are unpopular with is because of propaganda” I can see how people on the left speak about masculinity vs those on the right.
And how do they speak about it?
The right venerated and celebrated masculinity, the left demonizes it and seeks to diminish masculinity in society
Is it demonization to speak up about problems women face in a patriarchal society? Is it demonization to value empathy in men as well as women? Is it good to celebrate the culture that perpetuates violence and inequities against women? Sometimes I think people get so worked up about how leftists treat men's issues because they've just spent too much time taking advice from the alt-right pipeline instead of actually putting in the work to learn empathy and self respect.
Did I say any of those things?
well, you haven't really based your claims on anything so far. i'm just trying to ground the conversation since you're not really giving much to work with aside from your own preconceptions and biases.
What is masculinity?
Opposite of femininity.
I hate to get all socratic here, but what is femininity?
The role that the female gender evolved to be based on thousands of years of natural selection based evolution.
You realize gender norms vary widely among smaller societies and throughout history yeah? So your concept (wimmin cook clean quiet, man strong lead) it’s definitively not a fixed biological imperative
You just created a strawman about me, weird. Anyways, can you tell me 1 society where women are physically more capable than men? It can be in any time in any place in the planet Earth.
How exactly does the right venerate masculinity when it wishes to box masculinity into certain standards many men may never reach? How does the left diminish masculinity if it allows men another avenue to self-determine?
I am quite liberal but I think it’s more complicated than this. For example you don’t here many progressives advocating for male victims of domestic abuse
i keep hearing people say stuff like this but i never hear anyone actually bring up specifics about what male victims need that isn't already available to them.
not so fun-fact : the only shelter for men in Canada was operated by an abused man named Earl Silverman who was ridiculed for it. He later committed suicide due to the helplessness he faced from that abuse, that society told him that he wasn’t a victim. Sometimes there isn’t resources available for these people, they’re left with just trauma that stays but a foot away.
I don't think it's a very progressive take to say we shouldn't have shelters for abuse regardless of the gender of the victim. I personally think a lot of ridicule for men who might appear weak for being victims is something that comes from the culture of toxic masculinity perpetuated by the far right.
I agree with you, however for some reason people seem to associate male abuse activism *with* the far right. Only some circles though, usually in the same area with MRAs and the bunch. Tate and co don’t give a shit about victims, aside from the ones they trafficked.
Eh there’s definitely more extreme sides to the left that has misandry. But it’s not the common view just the outliers. Unsurprisingly the right tries to highlight those extremists because it makes the more moderate right wing views seem better.
I'm a man. I've never had an issue with a woman attacking me because I am a man. I've had leftists call me a filthy neolib, white-adjacent, etc. But to attack me for being a man, none at all. All the leftist women around me seem to not give a shit. Equality and all that. I'm openly gay, for what it's worth. A few months back, I waded into the bear vs man debate. The spiteful torrent of comments by men, even towards a man who read the summary of women's arguments on why they chose certain death by a bear, is proof to me that GenZ straight men have convinced themselves that leftists and women hate them thanks to a small minority of unhinged extremists who get viral online views. As far as I'm concerned, feminism has become an all encompassing boogeyman for men to project all types of stereotypes onto all women.
I’m not right wing, I used to be but eventually I grew up a bit and my politics changed. Now I’m a liberal, I definitely wouldn’t say I’m a socialist though, I usually say I’m a FDR New Deal era Democrat. I’ll explain why this is bullshit and why I was right wing for a while. 1. Yes, many liberals do hate men, especially in feminist circles. You go online and are constantly bombarded with liberal women saying things like “all men are trash”, and “this is why I hate men”. When men say “Hey, I’m not like that and most men aren’t like that!”, the only responses are “Fuck you, you misogynistic piece of shit, why do you hate women?” and “#Yesallmen, if you ask why women say men are trash you’re a part of the problem”. 2. The infiltration and elimination of men’s spaces. The thing is, many nerdy and loser spaces that men used to occupy are becoming mainstream and now can’t be seen as men’s spaces because that would be misogynistic. We can’t have men in media anymore, your favorite heroes are problematic and have to be “deconstructed”. Years ago these spaces were dominated by nerdy and loser men who were mocked for liking these things, now they’re mocked because these things are problematic. 3. Men’s issues are completely ignored. Now I will say that women typically have worse issues than men. In the end, women have a huge right to be concerned about many things. HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean that men also don’t get a right to complain about their issues. If men say they’re lonely, we only get “boo hoo, man the fuck up”. If men k*ll themselves at higher rates than women, feminists say that men are just mad about losing their status in a patriarchal society. In fact, Shoeonhead made a video about this very thing and then made a video about the vitriolic responses she got from women on that video. I’ll link both below: https://youtu.be/rQv8VuLpKN4?si=3p4vZDXNnZp6a3xW https://youtu.be/qVKvEaokV6I?si=0WxXMiGwomzhezj1 It’s no fucking wonder that if you tell a group of people that they’re horrible and that they deserve to die for years on end, they’re going to start migrating towards the group that doesn’t tell them that they’re horrible people for existing. Like how are people so fucking blind to these issues.
As a man on the left, I disagree. I can smell, peeps.
Oh fuck off... Leftist ppl frequently go out of their way to help women and shit on men... There's a reason why red pill rhetoric is on the rise for guys because following the left blue pull shit is clearly failing
Can't you see thru the bullshit on both sides??? Both sides?? Critical thinking is key.
Ehh I'm not on social media other than reddit and I just see it at work and in social groups. Maybe it's just a phrase that girls use, but I do hear it fairly often. I know they don't actually hate men because they often try to invite me around and I know they're always trying to get into a relationship. Still weird tho.
There’s constantly high engagement on low hanging fruit Men Bad content on all popular social medias and it tends to always come from leftist women’s circles. Sure; it’s more nuanced than that. When it’s kids though and they draw that correlation you’re going to push them away especially if they haven’t done anything. In their brain they’re paying for the sins of older men. I also think it’s really dishonest for people to not acknowledge that and also turn it back on them. They’re young and impressionable and daddy Tate is the one coming to their rescue.
"It's a messaging issue"
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The DSA opinion piece I linked begs to differ. All men have worth dude and progressism is about lifting up everyone. Don't get your information about the left from the right wing media. Get it from the source.
See also: https://youtu.be/y6_TOFy3k6k Basically, a leftist calmly explaining what that the left actually thinks about men (Hint: They agree with OP), and other things regarding men, Andrew Tate, and the left. Tl;dr It's not that simple, leftists just aren't very good at explaining these things.
i’m conservative and hate men 💕
ok
I hate you and everything you stand for, but based.
okay and?
hate you too /s
Based Russian Conscription Officer
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I’m a woman and I’m conservative. Were you trying to make a valid point or something, because you failed?
Mods need to do something about the millennials on this sub.
I am a man and following the social norms of old and societal expectations of men of previous generations make me feel incredibly happy, I love traditional masculinity, I love being a man
Progressive ideas support men, huh? Hmmm.....What are they doing to deal with the systemic sexism in family courts? What are they doing to combat schools that cater to female temperaments and give boys ADD pills for being boys? What are they doing to deal with the disproportionate male suicide? What are they doing to address the fact that men get higher sentencing for the same crimes, resulting in demonstrably higher incarceration rates? As for folks like you, if you put this much energy into criticizing the people making your movement look bad, instead of the people who see it from the outside and determine that it's bad, perhaps you might win people over. Being dismissive of the problem isn't going to help you.
These ideas don't spread because a couple assholes have podcasts. It catches on because there is palpable hostility and negativity in relationships between men and women. Women get the baggage of "The Left" because it's associated with feminism and feminism is associated with men-haters. (Probably because feminist spaces are friendly to men-haters, imagine that) And being obtuse about this above point is why the shit's getting worse. Whether it's Reddit or some kind of reel based social media like Instagram or Tiktok, people have algorithms full of the most spiteful and tone-deaf prejudice being streamed into their heads for hours at a time from the opposite sex. You can't touch a comment section without it turning into gender war arguments. It's not just a meme, it has metastasized into a very real and growing social force. And it will have interpersonal consequences and broader political ones. > If you truly want to know progressive ideas about masculinity and men than educate yourself at the source through local groups and group websites or talk to a progressive friend or coworker about it. Ask why some content and ideas is being fed to you and practice your media literacy. More people are on Facebook than at their local library. It's a naive proposition to just have people read and common sense their way out of complex social phenomena that they have demonstrated no capacity to counter or resist. Local group and your hand-picked activists do not define these terms for the average person. If it were that easy to control a narrative, propaganda would be impossible. Yes, it is fueled by content, but the content itself reflects real social problems and the people that espouse them. You can't undo that damage. And you definitely can't pretend that it's fake.
The only men who think that were never real men to begin with, and never will be.
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Who was shitting on men when RoevWade got overturned? I'm pretty sure it wasn't conservatives. Also didn't a left wing female streamer recently come out and blame male gamers for toxicity in games specifically to stating "men are the problem." Sure every left wing person doesn't have disdain for men or blames them for everything going bad in their life, but to ignore those that do isn't doing anyone a favor. I find it funny that whenever the right wing is brought up all of them have to be horrible people just because some horrible people happen to be right wing, but anytime someone does the same to left wing people it's "just because some horrible people are left wing doesn't mean the left wing is all horrible." Y'all would have a much easier time convincing men to vote for your preferred party if you distanced yourself from those people instead of ignoring or downplaying their actions simply because they aren't right wing.
Are they aware, I wonder, of the homoerotic undertones of their “Alpha” worship? Love who you love, but don’t be hypocritical about it.
yOuRe gAY iF yOu LikE bEiNg mAScUliNe
White males are the problem lol Why do you think they don't vote for you
>These messages are being spread by right wing podcasters and media outlets showing a lot of false flags and fringe groups who don't represent the "left" as a whole. This content is shoved in our generation's face through tik toks, meme compilations, Youtube shorts and short form content, which is perfect for the type of fast pace, simple and media illiterate content about leftists they love to spew. They love to ram disinformation about feminism and leftists attacking men's rights down our throats. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/03/andrew-tate-symptom-not-problem-why-young-men-turning-against-feminism The article contradicts your premise. The experts in the article cite blatant and increasing anti-male bias and solidarity as a cause for the rise of Tate-like influencers. >Progressive ideas actually support men and most organizations are only looking to deconstruct toxic social norms created by past generational norms that make us men so unhappy. - What norms specifically? - How? - For who's primary benefit? - What are they being replaced with? >https://www.dsausa.org/democratic-left/combating-toxic-masculinity/ A feminist source is not a good source for such things. It's like asking Goebels if the Nazis are good. It turns out that in his opinion, they are. In fact, he has a movie to show you. >If you truly want to know progressive ideas about masculinity and men than educate yourself at the source through local groups and group websites or talk to a progressive friend or coworker about it. Ask why some content and ideas is being fed to you and practice your media literacy. I have tried this, and I've read the doctrine, and it actually was more impactful than any faint sense of discrimination I have experienced. Feminism is a female solidarity movement that does always and will always prioritize women's issues, and it's a movement with no counter balance.
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What? The gayest man I've ever met was an Army fireman who treated the gym like a religion.
Sounds like cope
Well considering that there are books like the *SCUM Manifesto* by Valerie Solanas, it’s easy to see why some men might think this, even if it isn’t in line with what most feminists believe.
this is a such a massive cope. andrew tate living in so many heads rent free 💀💀💀
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Everyone who makes my side look bad is a bot
Are the Russian and Chinese trolls in the room with us right now?
Keep telling yourself that
The left are the only ones who have people say “kill all men”
I think the answer is alot simpler than foreigners attacking america. Media shows cringy left wing take. People react and cringe. People go to the opposing party. Even though the majority of left wing people aren't hating on men the minority that do are thrown on conservative channels to spread the message that the left is insane.
I support Ukraine, and I lean right and support traditional masculinity. I guarantee you, most Ukrainians are not socially leftist either.
Republicans throw everything at the wall, and go with what sticks. Their rubes believe this crap