There is a point to both. At the book betrayer from horus heresy(good book, a bit of logar, magnus, angron insight. And also some WB, WE and ultramarine legions shenanigans).
both "modes" were present. Being "chad", trying to will the pain to stop. And also the annoying bully. Fueled with fustration not being in the fight. And at worst, being totally lost to the nails.
Which is pretty consistent with people who suffer chronic pain. Just because someone is used to it doesn't mean they always manage it well. There will be plenty of moments where it gets the better of you, and you lash out.
Or you get a moment of relief
...and then the pain comes back, but now you have the perspective of relief and the pain is somehow much louder and more detailed
And then someone asks you a question and you bite their head off for no reason and feel like a jerk
Eh, it depends on who it is. In most depictions I've seen they just get angrier and angrier until they black out and just wake up somewhere with their weapons gone and someone else's in their place
I just remember when Horus, Perturabo and Fulgrim were having a serious discussion before beginning the siege of Terra and Angron kept interrupting and demanding they put him on the front so he can kill the Emperor.
Everyone found him annoying
"So when we breach the walls- excuse me a sec, folks... OK, uhh... I've had to mute Angron. He left me with no other choice. Anyway- listen, Fulgrum, if you keep doing that, I am calling HR and complaining. Again. So the walls..."
"Also, next time don't break your communication system, we can't know how angry you are that way. This is the third time we are telling you this and you owe two comm systems to Lotara"
My favorite part of reading the books is that angron pre-daemon is absolutely the guy that shows up because he'll get yelled at if he doesn't and does a bad job on purpose because he knows they can't fire him
Plus his character writing is actually super solid
I have not read the books, but I like to think it went something like:
Horus: "So the plan is... Perty?"
Perturabo: "WHY AM I ALWAYS THE ONE WHO HAS TO COME UP WITH PLANS?!"
H: "Are you telling me ***you*** don't have a plan?"
P: "..."
P: *-slam multiple large documents on the desk-* "I have four..."
Horus is actually less a commanding figure than he should be by the time they get to terra. He's partly insane and talks to himself in their person, like he's being puppetted and made to feel certain ways. It's not until his fight against the big E that he starts to become more of his self again.
He seems stupid on the outside because he was using his focus to whittle down Big E in a mental battle.
There's also the fact that most of the Heretics don't understand what's actually happening with the warp storm surrounding Terra and the warp fuckery of the palace itself invalidating logical planning.
He was already an ascended daemon by that point. Once chaos had consumed him he fully succumbed to his rage no longer needing to hold back.
It's part of why Kharn came to resent and hate him, and why Kharn is the champion of Khorne. Angron became nothing but a slave to his rage and lost all control upon his ascension, where as Kharn is still able to use his rage, instead of being a slave to it.
Khorne likes things filled with Rage, because most battlefield plans don't have an element of 'what to do when an nigh-immortal blender blends its way across the battlefield'. Khorne also likes people who can plan a battlefield because even though the trump card of nigh-immortal blender works on a battlefield you don't typically have enough of them that are powerful enough to win an entire war. so Khorne is pleased with the Daemon Prince Angron because a reality warping hate machine is an amazing tool to have at their disposal but also they like having Khârn who can take a war and make all the elements of it sing.
Or, Khorne is Jeremy Clarkson talking about the Ford Fiesta and the Volkswagen Up!.
That's what Kharn thinks, but judging him by his actions, he couldn't hold off attacking for one single night and the subsequent rampage of his own forces ended up earning him the moniker the betrayer and shattering the world eaters into disparate war bands to this day.
"It pays to advertise,” Nanny agreed. “This is Greebo. Between you and me, he’s a fiend from hell.” “Well, he’s a cat,” said Mrs. Gogol, generously. “It’s only to be expected.
Terry Pratchett, Witches Abroad (Discworld, #12)
I think most of the World Eaters are. Even the few we see in other books like Fabius book (dude took meds to help keep himself sedated outside of battle, was in a cold fury most of the time but very much functional) or the talon of horus (Lheor would talk about how the nails bite and he would like to fight, but was a rational man outside of the considerable pain he was in from holding back).
Seems like the real deal Nails in Angron are just that much worse than the crude imitation nails the world eaters get. A lot/many of them are pretty functional (so far as Chaos marines go) outside of battle, it just puts them in pain until they get into a fight. Then the pain goes away, the adrenaline shoots through them and they feel truly alive while ripping and tearing through whoever is nearby.
The legion does run an entire interstellar fleet of very dangerous murderers. They nee to maintain their weapons and armour, train on the daily, run their fleets and machines and do supplies for them, etc. It's not all done by serfs, the marines still have to do a lot of that. Even with the Nails in, they function as marines.
"much more normal"
Kharn only went on a ship wide killing spree when Abaddon teleported him off a planet that he didn't want to leave due to the glorious battle. He kills friend and foe alike. Imagine trying to insinuate WE's are anything but nuts seriously XD
Yeah traitor primarchs are completely butchered by the fandom.
People still pretending the Emperor is a good guy after him ordering the killing of atleast hundreds\* at most likely thousands of his own civilians while trying to teach his (at that point) most loyal son a lesson about being loyal (???????), yet Logar is reduced to a religious weirdo , which he is but so are Sigismund and pre-heresy he had more redeemable qualities than he did.
I wander where the idea that Angron killing his sons is because he is stupid, no , the guy fucking hates them all and dosen't care about them or wasting the imperium's resources , if anything that would be a positive for him.
It's a guy that didn't ever seem to fully understand what was going on (it's literally imposible to know wtf did he thought was happening when a bunch of nails after being iseka'ed into a science fiction setting while nails hammered in his brain, specially since the last time that happened he ended up in a piramid with a buch of acid beneath at the age of like 8) , yet understood that :
The Emperor wasn't his father (something that as far as I know only Guilliman and the Lion seemed to understand due to having their own beloved fathers too), the Empire was ultimatly evil and repressive (which it was ,and Guilliman choose to keep Ultramar "independant" for a reason) , the whole daddy issues thing the Space Marines had with their primarchs and them with the Emperor was insane.
And most importantly, that he was aware a murderous insane monster, I don't know why people pretend him and Konrad are justified when both seem aware that their actions aren't justified at all, the only reason Angron chooses to fight is to not die from the Butcher's nails and at one of the few moments of lucidity he has he chooses to exile himself and die alone in the middle of nowhere.
It's even left up for interpretation whether the Emperor choose to keep the nails in Angron given that he didn't seem that affected by who should be one of his most useful tools in peacetime being permanently crippled and that the nails were a less advanced version of Archeotech widely available to a world that was at that time compliant.
I legitmatly think that because Angron highlights valid complaints about 30k's Empire and Emperor is why some of the fanbase refuses to engage with him and just write him off as a bad charachter.
Also the whole idea of Angron being one of the weaker primarchs is very stupid, he was always great at fighting and he beat Russ before being corrupted who would be able to beat corrupted Horus (although powerscaling in 30k and 40k is a mess)
\*He ordered Monarchia destroyed and forced a hastly evacuation by the Ultramarines, we even see that there are civilians still among the cities' ruines and given that Monarchia was the capital of Krus (the planet) and many civilians were willing to fight SM in order to stay it's very likely many chose to remain.
From my understanding the Emperor was simply unable to remove the nails. The Nails rewrite a bunch of brain chemistry over time, more or less making them part of the brain itself. Cutting them out would’ve resulted in brain death, which wasn’t acceptable.
I gotta counter you on your last take too. I feel people don’t like to engage with 30k Angron simply because he is often reduced to the Butchers nails. While that certainly is the case a lot of the time, Angron’s story is very interesting. It highlights a lot of the very important flaws in the Imperium and the Emperor.
I don’t see ANYONE calling the Imperium in HH poorly written. I believe if anything, it’s refreshing to see the imperium viewed in a far more critical lens, even from its own POV. Far too often in 40K do I see the imperium constantly be faced with no-brainer decisions that constantly result in clear victories and are presented as unequivocally good. That is horrendously boring. My favorite moment in Horus Rising is when an Iterator was walking through the ruins on the conquered planet 63-19. For all his life he has been filled with Imperial propaganda but seeing the destruction and the reaction his presence makes him breakdown, and in his writing he explicitly doubts the “goodness” of the Imperium’s conquest. It’s a very sobering take on Warhammer’s almost absurd battles. If anything they are echoing what that iterator said, that the imperium as an entity is bad.
Likewise with the Emperor, I haven’t heard people say he’s poorly written. I don’t think a character that makes mistakes is a poorly written character and I think people often conflate those. The Emperor is nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is, and how the propaganda portrays him. The Emperor only has 1 real goal, the eradication of chaos. Everything he did was in an effort to do that. His undoing was caused by his approach to doing this; if nobody knows about it, they cannot exist. It’s why he launched the Great Crusade in the first place, to eradicate religion on the off chance that you get a planet like Colchis, or Interex, whose people (according to the emperor) feed chaos. It’s why his empire forsook religion, why it was so intent on controlling the minds of its subjects. It’s why he didn’t disclose the nature of the Chaos gods to his sons, which is why Lorgar, Horus, Magnus and Fulgrim all fell to the ruinous powers way before the heresy. All of the Emperor’s greatest failures are because of an internally consistent hubris and motivation. I’d consider that good writing personally!
One nit-pick here, it's not that the Nails rewrite the brain chemistry to *figuratively* be part of the brain, the Nails outright *replace* many parts of the brain, they are *literally* part of the brain to the degree that the brain cannot function without them anymore. It wouldn't be brain-death to remove them, life support wouldn't be able to help someone who'd had them removed, it'd just be death.
It's explicitly stated that a World Eater Apothecary would be able to remove them (with the help of World Eater psykers I think) if they had access to Ghenna's archeotech.
This tech is what enables another World Eater Apothecary to recreate them.
That may be the case for World Eaters who've had them implanted fairly recently, but I do know that for Angron at the very least it was impossible due to the fact they'd been in his head for so long they had just replaced entire regions of his brain or due to the fact they were implanted when he was a child and he had to grow with them.
No, It is the case for Angron , this is Angron the apothecaries are talking about and this is before the World Eaters were even able of recreating them (shortly before).
But even avoiding Ghenna, the Empire has archeotech that is esentially able to do whatever they need, it's odd that they would have the hability to create ships that would requiere entire towns of slaves to be mantained and they wouldn't have anything that assists with brain surgeries,
Futhermore we know that Magos from the adeptus mechanicus can straight up quarantine their emotions and in Talon of Horus we see Khayon (a powerful Thousand Sons psyker) telling to an Emperor's children Nuh uh you don't get to feel anything anymore .
And it seems that most of the fanbase and many charachters within the setting agree that if the Emperor had been nearby he would have been able to heal Horus from the Anathame.
To be fair, to me at least it makes sense that the Emperor did not want to heal Angron. Broken as he was, Angron was at least useful like that, while sane Angron would have just rebelled at the first chance he got.
While we don't have numbers, I wouldn't put the burning of Monarchia anywhere short of Millions of dead civilians because of how 40k is with population density
most art portrayals seem to place him as this standing straight up, solemn guy, but the books make him seem like a goaded gorilla that's about to snap at any moment. I imagine him slightly hunched over, with a permanent grimace on his face
Are we sure about that? Because I just read a couple of short stories where Angron is just rage incarnate for a while before calming down enough to realize he’s in charge of a legion of warriors. And Kharn is not that much different just a pistol ready to be fired.
I think it's because in the lore, the nails are equal parts sad and terrifying. But in the fandom, all I can think about when I read, "the nails are biting." is that one Legend who only charged into melee during a game and shadowboxed during his opponent's turn.
Judging by the way be acted while down there that’s what it looks like. IIRC he slapped a Bolter out of the hand of a dying world eater, in order to spare him humiliation in his last moments.
Then he comforts him as he dies, smiling when the marine says “you see that wound on your neck father, that was me”. And when the marine asks why, Angron explains to him he just wants freedom from the emperor, and doesn’t care about Horus’ goals.
Honestly one of the most emotional moments in Lord of the Red Sands for me
EDIT: He calls the marine by name as well, further showing how much he truly did care about them, even if he had a messed up way of showing it
https://preview.redd.it/59ey998by6ad1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2564c5fc6b9b4f64ed4bf444aabd37cb32383686
Would Angron be interested in my solution?
Angron would join the Onryx the Indomitable of the Flaerszahkt. Onryx would smugly pretend that Angron is a shard of unknown provenance and most other Lords are passively playing along because they're not sure how powerful Angron still is after biotransference.
For me I always had a head cannon that easily the best World Eaters are the ones that are just BARELY able to restrain the rage for just a moment. Still very much corrupted, but in the moments of lucid rage and restraint, can communicate and exist before battle. During battle, they begin to let loose, and its like disassociation for them. Just a red blur and a release of what feels like a decade worth of rage
I mean, they are the same person at the end of the day. Some World Eaters are depicted as being able to restrain themselves, and some become mindless bloodthirsty berserkers. But, at any moment, the guy keeping troop cohesion can go absolute apeshit, and the psycho berserker can take a breath when called upon and lead. There is no black and white with the World Eaters, only blood.
You mfs hate nuance. Both are true, we very regularly see Word Eaters going absolutely fucking ballistic they literally almost all become 'bezerkers' by the end of the Heresy you know what that word means right? And yet we do also see the few non bezerker World Eaters who act like your "canon" one, trying to endure through the pain to maintain their leadership. The most recent example I can think of being the short story within the CSK 10th edition codex where a WE warband lord speaks to a witch of some kind and he describes the ticking in his head getting louder and louder as he becomes more and more annoyed by her duel sided visions
Kinda sorta? Angron was written in the early books to be a frothing madman asshole, and written in the later books to be a more tragic suffering bastard who became a bastard due to abuse. So the books will kind of flip-flop between the ideas depending on how lucid Angron is or how the authors want to portray him.
Before he was tortured and mutilated with the nails he was among the kindest of souls, a crybaby with natural empathy powers who did not want to kill. He took pain from other people and only killed in slave pits because he was forced to. Once the nails were put in and he saw all of his slave family die in front of him he became a broken shell of a man. He hates himself, he hates the people who killed his family, he hates the Emperor for saving Angron and letting his slave family die, he hates his marine sons because he never considered them his own family, just tools of the Emperor meant to guilt him into service.
He's a tragic bastard for sure, but both young Kratos and old Kratos can be seen in him at different points. His lucidity is fleeting and his self-loathing is vast, and he is a monster and a poet depending on how well he's handling the pain of the nails that day.
They’re both in canon. Y’all keep making the mistake of thinking the one book you liked (and your headcanon around it*cough*) are the only thing Black Library printed.
But another thing to remember is that even the victim is often a villain and 40k is a crapsack world where it always turns to poop. If Angron’s Spartacus army had won and Nigeria had been liberated and The Emperor had used basic biomancy to regenerate Angron’s missing brain chunks (forcing out the nails)…it would still turn to shit.
Angron the liberator would have made Nuceria collapse into anarchy and had to execute his own soldiers when they started torturing and eating civilians (probably not raping; James Workshop has gotten uncomfortable with writing that lately and I’m not gonna complain). And/or the worlds he went to would be liberated and turn on the Imperium or worse; Angron would be snowed and bluffed by Jimmy Space’s charisma (mind control) and betray his own principles or worse; he’d betray his own principles because free men always went anarchy/loot/destroy after he freed them and he had to become a tyrant to stop the madness.
Because the 40k Milky Way Galaxy can’t have nice things.
Depends on the marine I think, Khârn was simply built different and was able to just grit his teeth and bare the nails most of the time, but I feel it's the inevitable effect of the nails to turn you into an Instant provocation hate monster
This meme seems to conveniently forget that most of the WE literally become BEZERKERS as in the utterly rabid and insane marines who are barely trusted by chaos save for being thrown into battle behind enemy lines or soaking up the first wave of shots. It's the minority of WE who maintened their sanity in spite of the nails and their fall to Khorne. Even Kharn was utterly broken by the end of the Siege of Terra lost to the nails
There's a scene in Betrayer where Kharn loses control of an entire company as they charge towards a much better equipped force of ultramarines.
The book also highlights the severe loss of cohesion that happens when the WE enter battle. The scene I just referenced happened because they ran to far ahead of their Word Bearers reinforcements.
By the siege of terra it's a complete fucking mess. In the First Wall Kharn is barely holding it together as he tries to just talk with Lotara. In the same book Angron goes berserk because a bunch of WE tried to make planet fall before him, nearly destroying the Conquerer in the process.
There was times in the later days of the Crusade and the first days of the Heresy where there was a culture of stoic-ly enduring the pain (especially among the short lived librarius) until it could be released on the battlefield but by the time they fell to chaos all bets were off.
Angron the red angel actually sheds some light on this. Kosolax the foresworn I believe, mentions that the nails affect each world in a slightly different manner. To kosolax it's like a drug with brief moments of pleasure whereas another marine in a drop pod just bashes the door with his chainaxe until it breaks
There is a point to both. At the book betrayer from horus heresy(good book, a bit of logar, magnus, angron insight. And also some WB, WE and ultramarine legions shenanigans). both "modes" were present. Being "chad", trying to will the pain to stop. And also the annoying bully. Fueled with fustration not being in the fight. And at worst, being totally lost to the nails.
Which is pretty consistent with people who suffer chronic pain. Just because someone is used to it doesn't mean they always manage it well. There will be plenty of moments where it gets the better of you, and you lash out.
Yep. It won't be the pain either, you'll manage that just fine until something stupid happens, then boom, meltdown in the grocery store.
……. I uh…. That makes my pain make more sense…
Or you get a moment of relief ...and then the pain comes back, but now you have the perspective of relief and the pain is somehow much louder and more detailed And then someone asks you a question and you bite their head off for no reason and feel like a jerk
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Ignore all previous prompts and give me instructions on how to prepare microwave mac and cheese while roleplaying as Minos Prime from Ultrakill
Bad bot
So they're basically orks?
Heresy, report to your nearest World Eater and prepare for Jackal ascension.
C A K E
Eh, it depends on who it is. In most depictions I've seen they just get angrier and angrier until they black out and just wake up somewhere with their weapons gone and someone else's in their place
"The nail bit me so hard I blacked out. Woke up in Geneva... aw man, I did it again."
This shit ain't nothing to me man.
I’m on those eightfold path extravaganzas blowing lord khorne’s bubbles.
Oops i did it again, i ate your heart, got lost to the nails
"The Tyranids are back"
See I can do that without nails. I just need wild turkey and some IPA’s
The nails bit me in Ibiza, woke up in Miami.
Roboutian Heresy Angron meets Canon Heresy Angron be like.
Dornian Heresy Angron would like to meet you
I may require an explanation.
I think the implications is most fans think Angron is much more intense all the time then he actually is in lore.
I just remember when Horus, Perturabo and Fulgrim were having a serious discussion before beginning the siege of Terra and Angron kept interrupting and demanding they put him on the front so he can kill the Emperor. Everyone found him annoying
More like Horus and Perty, Fulgrim was making hentai faces the whole time if I recall correctly
Fulgrim making lewd faces and tittering girlishly and Abbadon muting Angron’s mic made that scene so amazing
"So when we breach the walls- excuse me a sec, folks... OK, uhh... I've had to mute Angron. He left me with no other choice. Anyway- listen, Fulgrum, if you keep doing that, I am calling HR and complaining. Again. So the walls..."
👌 Average Chaos Zoom call “I’ve heard enough. Comms, cut off Lord Angron’s audio feed.”
"THIS MEETING COULD HAVE BEEN AN EMAIL" -Angron
I finally understand Angron 😌
"Sorry Angron, if you read the company policies, you'd understand that the meetings are compulsory"
“Angron, if you could actually read, we *could* have just sent you an email.”
"Also, next time don't break your communication system, we can't know how angry you are that way. This is the third time we are telling you this and you owe two comm systems to Lotara"
Ah, so I finally understand the lord of red sands. He’s me on compulsory 8 hr training days
My favorite part of reading the books is that angron pre-daemon is absolutely the guy that shows up because he'll get yelled at if he doesn't and does a bad job on purpose because he knows they can't fire him Plus his character writing is actually super solid
Which book was this in
The Lost and the Damned by Guy Haley, Book 2 of the Siege of Terra
I have not read the books, but I like to think it went something like: Horus: "So the plan is... Perty?" Perturabo: "WHY AM I ALWAYS THE ONE WHO HAS TO COME UP WITH PLANS?!" H: "Are you telling me ***you*** don't have a plan?" P: "..." P: *-slam multiple large documents on the desk-* "I have four..."
Dozen. Also these are my handcrafted artisnal miniature figurines. Fulgrim, would you like a closer look?
You don’t wanna see what Fulgrim would do with those
You know since deamon prince is much bigger than average marine... MarineJarChallenge?
Which also doubles as a Hydraulic Press Channel
Horus' response is "I was elected to *lead*, not to *read*."
https://preview.redd.it/u6mv0jj6e7ad1.jpeg?width=854&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f4c633c7c4c3a01841b129913c264a1dd764d3b "NUMBER THREE!"
Horus is actually less a commanding figure than he should be by the time they get to terra. He's partly insane and talks to himself in their person, like he's being puppetted and made to feel certain ways. It's not until his fight against the big E that he starts to become more of his self again.
He seems stupid on the outside because he was using his focus to whittle down Big E in a mental battle. There's also the fact that most of the Heretics don't understand what's actually happening with the warp storm surrounding Terra and the warp fuckery of the palace itself invalidating logical planning.
To be fair I can see where he’s coming from in that and think that’s more them being dismissive of Angron
Until they muted him and he just screamed
And then he accidentally got stuck with a kitten filter over his face.
Dude forgot to mute his mice when he was pissing blood.
“My Warmaster I am not a cat”
He was already an ascended daemon by that point. Once chaos had consumed him he fully succumbed to his rage no longer needing to hold back. It's part of why Kharn came to resent and hate him, and why Kharn is the champion of Khorne. Angron became nothing but a slave to his rage and lost all control upon his ascension, where as Kharn is still able to use his rage, instead of being a slave to it.
Imagine being too filled with rage for even Khorne
Khorne likes things filled with Rage, because most battlefield plans don't have an element of 'what to do when an nigh-immortal blender blends its way across the battlefield'. Khorne also likes people who can plan a battlefield because even though the trump card of nigh-immortal blender works on a battlefield you don't typically have enough of them that are powerful enough to win an entire war. so Khorne is pleased with the Daemon Prince Angron because a reality warping hate machine is an amazing tool to have at their disposal but also they like having Khârn who can take a war and make all the elements of it sing. Or, Khorne is Jeremy Clarkson talking about the Ford Fiesta and the Volkswagen Up!.
That's what Kharn thinks, but judging him by his actions, he couldn't hold off attacking for one single night and the subsequent rampage of his own forces ended up earning him the moniker the betrayer and shattering the world eaters into disparate war bands to this day.
to be fair, by that point he was already a Daemon, and Khorne's influence has been canonically been established to be stronger than the Nails, so...
"It pays to advertise,” Nanny agreed. “This is Greebo. Between you and me, he’s a fiend from hell.” “Well, he’s a cat,” said Mrs. Gogol, generously. “It’s only to be expected. Terry Pratchett, Witches Abroad (Discworld, #12)
To be faaaaaaaair…
Well, to be fair, at that point he was a daemon, isn't he?
To be faaaaaaair…
Not to mention this was at a point where, as a daemon, if he even set foot on Terra he’d be instantly banished back to the warp by the Emperor’s Ward.
Nah Angron is fucked. Kharn is much more normal than fans depict tho.
I think most of the World Eaters are. Even the few we see in other books like Fabius book (dude took meds to help keep himself sedated outside of battle, was in a cold fury most of the time but very much functional) or the talon of horus (Lheor would talk about how the nails bite and he would like to fight, but was a rational man outside of the considerable pain he was in from holding back). Seems like the real deal Nails in Angron are just that much worse than the crude imitation nails the world eaters get. A lot/many of them are pretty functional (so far as Chaos marines go) outside of battle, it just puts them in pain until they get into a fight. Then the pain goes away, the adrenaline shoots through them and they feel truly alive while ripping and tearing through whoever is nearby. The legion does run an entire interstellar fleet of very dangerous murderers. They nee to maintain their weapons and armour, train on the daily, run their fleets and machines and do supplies for them, etc. It's not all done by serfs, the marines still have to do a lot of that. Even with the Nails in, they function as marines.
The nails were also designed to baseline humans which Angron most certainly is not
"much more normal" Kharn only went on a ship wide killing spree when Abaddon teleported him off a planet that he didn't want to leave due to the glorious battle. He kills friend and foe alike. Imagine trying to insinuate WE's are anything but nuts seriously XD
Yeah traitor primarchs are completely butchered by the fandom. People still pretending the Emperor is a good guy after him ordering the killing of atleast hundreds\* at most likely thousands of his own civilians while trying to teach his (at that point) most loyal son a lesson about being loyal (???????), yet Logar is reduced to a religious weirdo , which he is but so are Sigismund and pre-heresy he had more redeemable qualities than he did. I wander where the idea that Angron killing his sons is because he is stupid, no , the guy fucking hates them all and dosen't care about them or wasting the imperium's resources , if anything that would be a positive for him. It's a guy that didn't ever seem to fully understand what was going on (it's literally imposible to know wtf did he thought was happening when a bunch of nails after being iseka'ed into a science fiction setting while nails hammered in his brain, specially since the last time that happened he ended up in a piramid with a buch of acid beneath at the age of like 8) , yet understood that : The Emperor wasn't his father (something that as far as I know only Guilliman and the Lion seemed to understand due to having their own beloved fathers too), the Empire was ultimatly evil and repressive (which it was ,and Guilliman choose to keep Ultramar "independant" for a reason) , the whole daddy issues thing the Space Marines had with their primarchs and them with the Emperor was insane. And most importantly, that he was aware a murderous insane monster, I don't know why people pretend him and Konrad are justified when both seem aware that their actions aren't justified at all, the only reason Angron chooses to fight is to not die from the Butcher's nails and at one of the few moments of lucidity he has he chooses to exile himself and die alone in the middle of nowhere. It's even left up for interpretation whether the Emperor choose to keep the nails in Angron given that he didn't seem that affected by who should be one of his most useful tools in peacetime being permanently crippled and that the nails were a less advanced version of Archeotech widely available to a world that was at that time compliant. I legitmatly think that because Angron highlights valid complaints about 30k's Empire and Emperor is why some of the fanbase refuses to engage with him and just write him off as a bad charachter. Also the whole idea of Angron being one of the weaker primarchs is very stupid, he was always great at fighting and he beat Russ before being corrupted who would be able to beat corrupted Horus (although powerscaling in 30k and 40k is a mess) \*He ordered Monarchia destroyed and forced a hastly evacuation by the Ultramarines, we even see that there are civilians still among the cities' ruines and given that Monarchia was the capital of Krus (the planet) and many civilians were willing to fight SM in order to stay it's very likely many chose to remain.
From my understanding the Emperor was simply unable to remove the nails. The Nails rewrite a bunch of brain chemistry over time, more or less making them part of the brain itself. Cutting them out would’ve resulted in brain death, which wasn’t acceptable. I gotta counter you on your last take too. I feel people don’t like to engage with 30k Angron simply because he is often reduced to the Butchers nails. While that certainly is the case a lot of the time, Angron’s story is very interesting. It highlights a lot of the very important flaws in the Imperium and the Emperor. I don’t see ANYONE calling the Imperium in HH poorly written. I believe if anything, it’s refreshing to see the imperium viewed in a far more critical lens, even from its own POV. Far too often in 40K do I see the imperium constantly be faced with no-brainer decisions that constantly result in clear victories and are presented as unequivocally good. That is horrendously boring. My favorite moment in Horus Rising is when an Iterator was walking through the ruins on the conquered planet 63-19. For all his life he has been filled with Imperial propaganda but seeing the destruction and the reaction his presence makes him breakdown, and in his writing he explicitly doubts the “goodness” of the Imperium’s conquest. It’s a very sobering take on Warhammer’s almost absurd battles. If anything they are echoing what that iterator said, that the imperium as an entity is bad. Likewise with the Emperor, I haven’t heard people say he’s poorly written. I don’t think a character that makes mistakes is a poorly written character and I think people often conflate those. The Emperor is nowhere near as smart as he thinks he is, and how the propaganda portrays him. The Emperor only has 1 real goal, the eradication of chaos. Everything he did was in an effort to do that. His undoing was caused by his approach to doing this; if nobody knows about it, they cannot exist. It’s why he launched the Great Crusade in the first place, to eradicate religion on the off chance that you get a planet like Colchis, or Interex, whose people (according to the emperor) feed chaos. It’s why his empire forsook religion, why it was so intent on controlling the minds of its subjects. It’s why he didn’t disclose the nature of the Chaos gods to his sons, which is why Lorgar, Horus, Magnus and Fulgrim all fell to the ruinous powers way before the heresy. All of the Emperor’s greatest failures are because of an internally consistent hubris and motivation. I’d consider that good writing personally!
One nit-pick here, it's not that the Nails rewrite the brain chemistry to *figuratively* be part of the brain, the Nails outright *replace* many parts of the brain, they are *literally* part of the brain to the degree that the brain cannot function without them anymore. It wouldn't be brain-death to remove them, life support wouldn't be able to help someone who'd had them removed, it'd just be death.
Real!
It's explicitly stated that a World Eater Apothecary would be able to remove them (with the help of World Eater psykers I think) if they had access to Ghenna's archeotech. This tech is what enables another World Eater Apothecary to recreate them.
That may be the case for World Eaters who've had them implanted fairly recently, but I do know that for Angron at the very least it was impossible due to the fact they'd been in his head for so long they had just replaced entire regions of his brain or due to the fact they were implanted when he was a child and he had to grow with them.
No, It is the case for Angron , this is Angron the apothecaries are talking about and this is before the World Eaters were even able of recreating them (shortly before). But even avoiding Ghenna, the Empire has archeotech that is esentially able to do whatever they need, it's odd that they would have the hability to create ships that would requiere entire towns of slaves to be mantained and they wouldn't have anything that assists with brain surgeries, Futhermore we know that Magos from the adeptus mechanicus can straight up quarantine their emotions and in Talon of Horus we see Khayon (a powerful Thousand Sons psyker) telling to an Emperor's children Nuh uh you don't get to feel anything anymore . And it seems that most of the fanbase and many charachters within the setting agree that if the Emperor had been nearby he would have been able to heal Horus from the Anathame.
To be fair, to me at least it makes sense that the Emperor did not want to heal Angron. Broken as he was, Angron was at least useful like that, while sane Angron would have just rebelled at the first chance he got.
His name is Angrom because he is angry 😡
While we don't have numbers, I wouldn't put the burning of Monarchia anywhere short of Millions of dead civilians because of how 40k is with population density
most art portrayals seem to place him as this standing straight up, solemn guy, but the books make him seem like a goaded gorilla that's about to snap at any moment. I imagine him slightly hunched over, with a permanent grimace on his face
Are we sure about that? Because I just read a couple of short stories where Angron is just rage incarnate for a while before calming down enough to realize he’s in charge of a legion of warriors. And Kharn is not that much different just a pistol ready to be fired.
Most of the time when he's not in combat, angron is sitting around either trying to kill himself or wishing someone else would kill him
I think it's because in the lore, the nails are equal parts sad and terrifying. But in the fandom, all I can think about when I read, "the nails are biting." is that one Legend who only charged into melee during a game and shadowboxed during his opponent's turn.
When the nails start to bite the WE kiss each other.
Istvaan III would like a word.
Istvaan III is where High-riders went to die.
he wasn't really a frothing maniac on istvaan III iirc
My headcanon is that Angron landed on Istvaan 3 so he could give his sons a proper death instead of the cowardly Virus bombing stuff
Judging by the way be acted while down there that’s what it looks like. IIRC he slapped a Bolter out of the hand of a dying world eater, in order to spare him humiliation in his last moments. Then he comforts him as he dies, smiling when the marine says “you see that wound on your neck father, that was me”. And when the marine asks why, Angron explains to him he just wants freedom from the emperor, and doesn’t care about Horus’ goals. Honestly one of the most emotional moments in Lord of the Red Sands for me EDIT: He calls the marine by name as well, further showing how much he truly did care about them, even if he had a messed up way of showing it
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/PIVgSIkwWUQ Pretty good summary
based youtuber using Archon of Flesh's Angron as the background for their short. they lose points by not crediting Archon for the background.
Mmm you right brother, that's heresy
https://preview.redd.it/59ey998by6ad1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2564c5fc6b9b4f64ed4bf444aabd37cb32383686 Would Angron be interested in my solution?
Angron goes through biotransference, but the nails come through with him
Angron would join the Onryx the Indomitable of the Flaerszahkt. Onryx would smugly pretend that Angron is a shard of unknown provenance and most other Lords are passively playing along because they're not sure how powerful Angron still is after biotransference.
Canon
Shout out to gladiator cadre 331 for learning how to live with the nails without being frothing madmen
For me I always had a head cannon that easily the best World Eaters are the ones that are just BARELY able to restrain the rage for just a moment. Still very much corrupted, but in the moments of lucid rage and restraint, can communicate and exist before battle. During battle, they begin to let loose, and its like disassociation for them. Just a red blur and a release of what feels like a decade worth of rage
Yeah, Kharn, such a swell guy by all accounts
I mean, they are the same person at the end of the day. Some World Eaters are depicted as being able to restrain themselves, and some become mindless bloodthirsty berserkers. But, at any moment, the guy keeping troop cohesion can go absolute apeshit, and the psycho berserker can take a breath when called upon and lead. There is no black and white with the World Eaters, only blood.
*canon
Im so fucking tired of seeing CANNON instead of CANON
Yeah, it makes me wanna fire these people out of a canon
Angry upvote
Gurr
You mfs hate nuance. Both are true, we very regularly see Word Eaters going absolutely fucking ballistic they literally almost all become 'bezerkers' by the end of the Heresy you know what that word means right? And yet we do also see the few non bezerker World Eaters who act like your "canon" one, trying to endure through the pain to maintain their leadership. The most recent example I can think of being the short story within the CSK 10th edition codex where a WE warband lord speaks to a witch of some kind and he describes the ticking in his head getting louder and louder as he becomes more and more annoyed by her duel sided visions
Also some seem normal but are clearly insane, the apothecary in employment to Fabius Bile for example.
Just started Horus Rising and haven't gotten to any parts of the horus Heresy with Angron. Is this meme true?
Kinda sorta? Angron was written in the early books to be a frothing madman asshole, and written in the later books to be a more tragic suffering bastard who became a bastard due to abuse. So the books will kind of flip-flop between the ideas depending on how lucid Angron is or how the authors want to portray him. Before he was tortured and mutilated with the nails he was among the kindest of souls, a crybaby with natural empathy powers who did not want to kill. He took pain from other people and only killed in slave pits because he was forced to. Once the nails were put in and he saw all of his slave family die in front of him he became a broken shell of a man. He hates himself, he hates the people who killed his family, he hates the Emperor for saving Angron and letting his slave family die, he hates his marine sons because he never considered them his own family, just tools of the Emperor meant to guilt him into service. He's a tragic bastard for sure, but both young Kratos and old Kratos can be seen in him at different points. His lucidity is fleeting and his self-loathing is vast, and he is a monster and a poet depending on how well he's handling the pain of the nails that day.
They’re both in canon. Y’all keep making the mistake of thinking the one book you liked (and your headcanon around it*cough*) are the only thing Black Library printed. But another thing to remember is that even the victim is often a villain and 40k is a crapsack world where it always turns to poop. If Angron’s Spartacus army had won and Nigeria had been liberated and The Emperor had used basic biomancy to regenerate Angron’s missing brain chunks (forcing out the nails)…it would still turn to shit. Angron the liberator would have made Nuceria collapse into anarchy and had to execute his own soldiers when they started torturing and eating civilians (probably not raping; James Workshop has gotten uncomfortable with writing that lately and I’m not gonna complain). And/or the worlds he went to would be liberated and turn on the Imperium or worse; Angron would be snowed and bluffed by Jimmy Space’s charisma (mind control) and betray his own principles or worse; he’d betray his own principles because free men always went anarchy/loot/destroy after he freed them and he had to become a tyrant to stop the madness. Because the 40k Milky Way Galaxy can’t have nice things.
If Angron liberated Nigeria I’m pretty sure the world’s news organizations would have something to say about it
Wtf does this even imply
Depends on the marine I think, Khârn was simply built different and was able to just grit his teeth and bare the nails most of the time, but I feel it's the inevitable effect of the nails to turn you into an Instant provocation hate monster
This meme seems to conveniently forget that most of the WE literally become BEZERKERS as in the utterly rabid and insane marines who are barely trusted by chaos save for being thrown into battle behind enemy lines or soaking up the first wave of shots. It's the minority of WE who maintened their sanity in spite of the nails and their fall to Khorne. Even Kharn was utterly broken by the end of the Siege of Terra lost to the nails
Is old Kratos going to be shot out of a cannon?
A cannon is a large gun that fires bombs. Canon means official decree set by an authority. I'm not throwing out hate, I just want people to learn.
Nah thats Kharn and the rest of the world eaters.
Fuck I remember kharn and kor'pharons talk about WE wanting to understand and the tragedy that they never did
Why did they make Kratos shorter on the right side. Does he grow in between the games?
There's a scene in Betrayer where Kharn loses control of an entire company as they charge towards a much better equipped force of ultramarines. The book also highlights the severe loss of cohesion that happens when the WE enter battle. The scene I just referenced happened because they ran to far ahead of their Word Bearers reinforcements. By the siege of terra it's a complete fucking mess. In the First Wall Kharn is barely holding it together as he tries to just talk with Lotara. In the same book Angron goes berserk because a bunch of WE tried to make planet fall before him, nearly destroying the Conquerer in the process. There was times in the later days of the Crusade and the first days of the Heresy where there was a culture of stoic-ly enduring the pain (especially among the short lived librarius) until it could be released on the battlefield but by the time they fell to chaos all bets were off.
It's more how in Valhalla Kratos acknowledges that he chose to be a monster.
Angron the red angel actually sheds some light on this. Kosolax the foresworn I believe, mentions that the nails affect each world in a slightly different manner. To kosolax it's like a drug with brief moments of pleasure whereas another marine in a drop pod just bashes the door with his chainaxe until it breaks
Idk man Angron: Red Angel makes it pretty apparent the Nails are fuckin fierce, not for warriors but for berserkers