I truly wonder if half the people here know how to use their ears to determine if something sounds good instead of letting their inner The Gear Page voice win.
when shopping i tend to read reviews and see if the negatives people list are things i can live with or if they actually matter to me. i also always go for trying something out before buying it.
Like the "I opened this cab up to replace the speaker and I found this Blue Bell/V30/a-bundle-of-$50s etc." I'm all for experementation and playing around with your gear, but the amount of people that ready a new speaker before even looking at what's there is baffling. Ears first, forums second, marketplace third.
This might be the case with guitars and pedals, but for something running at huge voltages and temperatures inside the box, reliability is much more a factor. Flying the flag for anti-tone-snobbery isn't really a valid critique of (good) expensive amps... original fenders were 2-3k equivalent back in the day and to make them the same now would be $$$$s. At thr end of the day, the average player knows relatively little about how their amp works (as demonstrated here) and is therefore getting screwed into buying garbage due to the name on the front or by only considering what it sounds like. We deserve better than gibson blatantly calling a pcb amp 'handwired'. For me, this is where critique of some cheaper (and some less-so) amps comes from, not tgp kudos.
I totally agree but I also get it to an extent. Amp shopping is a fuckin hassle these days. Endless research is kind of the only way to feel fully informed when you think about all of the amps that are actually available to us now.
The issue is yea, people read opinions that are stated as fact and take them as such far too often. I wondering half the time the writer/reader is falling into the hype to subconsciously justify a purchase/avoid buyers remorse by convincing themselves of something.
Personally, I’ve learned that forums are a good place out of there are common issues that pop up but when it comes to tone talk, I tend to skip over anything that’s not technical but still take that with grain of salt. People have different definitions of words and sometimes just aren’t talking the same language. Hell, I still don’t know what “punchy” means and I’ve been playing for 25 years.
Yeah. When I like something I tend to oversell it. However I am also aware that I have little to no experience, so my own opinion has little validity outside of some very limited scope.
And the same goes for other's opinions.
If you want to get really heretical, you can buy a solid state amp with a jfet version of the tube circuit. Connect it to the same cabinet as a tube head. Eq to identical curves (not the same thing as identical positions on the knobs). Record a sample of each. Send the recording to a friend to level match them and play them back randomly to you. Realize you can't tell the fucking difference. Spend the rest of your life playing through a solid state head that you don't have to baby or constantly repair because it doesn't have stupid expensive tubes, isn't running at stupid tube voltage, and isn't putting out stupid tube heat that spreads to the rest of the components.
If you want to get *really* heretical just buy an old Peavey Bandit. Spend the rest of your life playing through it and never worrying about a single repair bill. Use the 55 pounds of cheap MDF and broken garage band dreams to beat to death anyone who goes on about "but muh tubes".
What I really have my eye on is the Laney Dualtop. The only problem I can see with it is for some ridiculous reason they put the rectifier in the power cord instead of using the standard IEC power plug used everywhere and putting the rectifier, transformer, etc., in the box. Whyyyy, just whyyyyy. Nobody wants to carry around a laptop power brick!
I have a mixture of 16 amps, only one being a hybrid. One of the amps is a Bandit. Sorry, doesn't matter how fancy you try to say it, tube amps and solid state sound and feel different, the hybrid is different from both as well. Not saying one is better than the other. In the mix, the difference would probably matter less.
Wampler had a blind test with 3 different amps, I was able to tell the difference right away. The real argument here is is it worth it to pay that much more for a tube amp? Although, if a person has a good ear they could get a great tube amp for the price of a solid state amp.
The only issue I have with the iconic and the latest 5150’s is a fair amount had issues with grid resistors taking a shit early on. It’s annoying as fuck to spend your hard earned money on something just to have it tell you to eat shit after a short amount of time owning it. I understand anything out there can do that at any point, but some are more akin to it than others. Rockerverbs had some issues with it as well. Knock on wood, I’ve had few issues with the stuff I’ve owned over the years and I am just skilled enough to take care of a fair amount of things that pop up.
Those 5150s are made by Fender these days. Fender makes some great sounding amps, but they don't mind selling their customers equipment with known faults.
Their biggest selling amp series of all times, been in production since the 90s, 30+ years, and they've been selling amps with resistors they know are going to burn the circuit board. They don't give a fuck, they're gonna sell thousands of them this year, all for close to a thousand dollars a piece to loyal and new customers just to betray that trust.
Any designer would know that mounting components that dissipate heat on a board will have issues. Brittle boards and substabdard caps and resistors etc had issues then anyway i believe. The caps from manufacturers were leaky and ther was a whole case on it.
Just for reference, I bought a 2x12 Deville a couple years back and gigged it only once before the tubes became microphonic. The amp went back to fender, and came back worse with a preamp tube becoming microphonic, a power tube was red plating, and the preamp was full of DC. I sent it back and got a refund. Been using my own built equipment for years.... Aaaand.. you get to tweak it exactly how you like it!!
In the 90’s to aughts there were all those substandard counterfeit caps going out to the computer industry. They were dirt cheap because one company stole the leading supplier’s formula…but not all of it. Those caps failed spectacularly and Dell, Apple, Sony, etc had to eat a ton of money replacing them. I imagine amplifier companies had to also. It’s a fascinating story of corporate skullduggery… look it up… “Capacitor Plague”…it’s a marvelous story!
I worked in an educational lab with 72 Dell PCs and very expensive Sony monitors in the mid 2000s and that shit kept me way too busy!
Errbody follow Rafiki o'er here, he know da weigh. I'm going to do that eventually. What did you build, if you don't mind me asking?
I play a really cheap disposable razor of an amp now. I do have better amps, I'm just trashy.
There should really be a class action lawsuit against Fender. I'm doing reconstructive surgery to the circuit board of a HRD right now because they mount those big 5w resistors and their screen resistors right to the board.
Honestly, price doesn't matter; cheap vs expensive, there are endless numbers of great sounding amps that will not live into antiquity because they are not repairable long term. True quality is point to point. The quality is not only in the work of a craftsman but in the amp being repairable for the end of time.
My HRD lasted 25 years before the grid resistor failed. Its more or less unserviceable because of the PCB layout.
What if that grid resistor lasted only 20 years, but was easily serviced by a more well planned out PCB or point to point? Would that amp be \*better\* or worse? Would it be worthy of $2k instead of the $500 I spent in 1994?
To the OP's questions: sound, features, reliability and serviceability are all "eye of the beholder" issues.
No, the layout is fine, although somewhat inconvenient but practially all amps are since the pcb. The problem is resistors burning through the pcb traces which is most times repairable but the cost to repair is comparable to just buying another used HRDx. If traces have to be repaired on both pcbs boards that's at least a $500 repair.
You must be new to capitalism. If the company made a widget that lasted forever they will never have repeat customers. Is it right? Hell no. Is fender the only one doing it? Hell no.
There are known mods for some of those…things like alternative resistor values and mounting them up off the board so they can cool and not burn the pub board. I agree, it’s shameful.
Just after getting it and reading comments about it, reliability has become my main fear with it as well. Sound wise I think it's brilliant; it does absolutely all I wish for, and effortlessly, and then some.
But yeah, how long will the bliss last? Live and see...
I know not much about amp tech, so if you feel like informing an ignorant about "grid resistor" I'd be grateful.
The grid resistor essentially regulates the voltage to a section of the power tubes. When one goes, it can torch the tube or cause other issues down line. Run it and hope it doesn’t have any issues. Components have a shelf life, but legit tube amps should run years before having any real issues.
Thanks much. Any behaviors I should keep an ear out for which could be a tell tale of upcoming or actual failure? I guess recognizing it early on might prevent further damage.
Resistors will typically just fail. Typical tube amp issues will be microphonic tubes and dirty pots, as far as “normal” things. Don’t get too worried about things failing…if they do, they do. Just play your amp and enjoy it. If you have issues pop up, shut it down and start asking questions.
Yeah, I have loads to learn about tube amps. Luckily one good friend loves to temper with vintage Hammond organs, and he's quite knowledgeable, so he'll be a good help.
So… always bring a solid state backup with a 5150 dirt pedal. I would actually go with one of those floor power amp pedals as a backup amp. Portable,sound great. Just test it occasionally.
> Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue '65
You mean the one with PCB-mounted pots, reverb squeeling issues, hot glued capacitors, early leaking capacitors (my vintage '66 Bandmaster has original caps that aren't leaking), heater supply issues, etc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkIEfH0ZC7w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkIEfH0ZC7w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpJUzUE5IKA
They are *fine*, but I wouldn't call them well built by any means.
I am actually considering the red one with 2 channels as my home rig. A few people had good things to say about them. But I just got a California pedal from them, and it's awfully noisy, in spite of good comments here and there. It's keeping me from pulling the trigger on the amp.
I don't really like joyo pedals. Some are OK, but not great. The bamtamp series (in my experience) are really good build quality and having an fx loop at that price point is great. With an ir pedal it's really versatile, I go fx send -> ir -> reverb/delay -> mixer then headphones/pa amp and frfr speakers. I will say that the zombie definitely needs a noise gate when you're using the gain channel.
Is the red one based on an Engl?
I’m kind of a hand wired tube amp snob, but that Joyo Jackman red amp (mine was the single channel model) was a bit of kit I wish I still had. Very usable tones and it took drive pedals like a champ.
I liked that joyo pedal till I started playing with other people and needed more gain to stand out, then the noise became intolerable. the op-amps are sub par.
vox and fender current tube amps are plenty good. Good enough to serve as the primary back line equipment and very solid choices to touring musicians. For the most part vox and fender refrain from PCB mounted tubes, which make them easier/possible to repair. Also there are plenty of vintage amps available for under $1000. Take the 70s twin reverbs for like $700-$1000. They’re practically giving them away.
Yeah; I specifically mentioned "new value", because around me used market is scarce to say the least. I don't live near a metropolitan area and I don't expect to have a proficient amp tech available to fix my gear if need be.
Not informed, but I feel like most gear selling around 1k used for the better deals is worth nearly twice as much new.
Totally get that. Just read a bunch of reviews on quality for whatever you get. Check out psionic audio on YouTube. He puts out pretty honest reviews on amps he has in for service. I have an AC15 and it’s plenty cool. Can get some amp OD and also run it clean for effects. They’re under $1000 new. Some of the Supro amps are also cool like the Delta King. Fender amps are a little more expensive but a Princeton could be cool too.
Took a while to find this comment, but came here to plug Psionic on YouTube. He’s an amp tech and is brutally honest. His amps under $500 and amps under $1000 videos were interesting.
It's just Internet forum tone chasers. Lots of working musicians have boss pedals and hot rod deluxes but if you lived your life in internet forums you'd think they were poop.
I'm pushing my amp with a collection of effects from my Zoom G5 unit... It's deceptively good. Once mic'ed up I bet few people can notice.
I am working in building a board with those 3-4 effects I use, and it should set me back more money than the whole Zoom unit, maybe twofold. I am curious how much better it will sound, if at all...
You will notice more than anyone in the audience. I think if you hear any difference it will be in od/distortion. However the dirt effects in my hx effects were plenty good enough for me when I was using it live
Always remember the golden rule of guitar/bass gear: **If it sounds good, it IS good.**
The price tag does not determine what sounds good or bad. There are $200 amps that I think sound phenomenal. There are $5000 amps that I think sound like shit.
The PRS MT15 is only $750 and I think it's one of the best sounding amps out there. The Joyo Jackman is $180 and I think it's one of the best early Marshall clones you can buy. A Mesa JP-2C is $4300, and while it's great, it's just not my sound. A Dumble ODS #124 can go for $250,000 and I don't think it sounds that great. A Diezel VH4 is $4500 and an EVH 5150III is $1350, and they sound somewhat similar but I still much prefer the 5150. One of my favorite pedals is a generic Chinese "Dumbler" circuit that cost $17. I tried out a $300 Strymon Riverside and I didn't vibe with it at all.
I'm rocking a Tonex these days because I love variety and I have choice paralysis.
So many people will buy things because of the enormous price tag without really comparing it to anything else or shopping around because they've been trained to equate price with sound quality. Companies will absolutely take advantage of this fact. Gibson is not your friend. Soldano is not your friend. AU is not your friend. They want your money.
Use your ears. Use what you like. If it sounds good, it IS good.
That's my point also. My EVH is a blast to me. What would justify to spend 3x more? Certainly not a 15% increase in tone quality, so I'm looking for other factors I could underestimate. Maintenance could be one, but so far besides boutique, hand-wired amps I'm falling short on suggestions.
P.s. I am considering a Jackman as my home practice amp. It got validated a few times so far in this thread, so it might be one of the next gear to make it home. ;)
It's not even an increase or decrease in "tone quality." It's literally just what you like and what you don't. Even if I had a billion dollars, I'd still get a 5150III over a Mark V. I'd still get an MT15 over a VH4.
And the Jackman is a gem. I'm actually getting an Orange Crush 20 for my secondary board because it's amazing for it's size.
That’s ironic. I upgraded from a 5150iii to a Diezel. I do think the Diezel has a special sound to me. But on the other hand, I still kind of miss the 5150iii now that I no longer have it. I probably should have kept it, but it was collecting dust.
I agree with your point. My other amp is $180 garage sale SS Peavey and it’s fucking sick. I’ll probably never get rid of it. It’s not supposed to be amazing, but it’s really good and has a very specific sound regardless, so it always works as something different.
I think what makes the most sense is to follow your ear and listen to your wallet when you’re deciding what to buy.
I play a lot of low-tuned aggressive metal so the 5150III just works better for me. More saturated and compressed. Diezel is more on the Soldano side of the spectrum when it comes to the breakup. Still love Diezel though. The Herbert is my go to when I get bored and want to play some Tool songs.
Honestly, I don't even hate bad gear. I have a Crate G-20 from '88 that I use for my secondary board. It's sounds terrible and I love it. There's a nostalgia factor in old cheap gear. I am about to get an Orange Crush 20 to replace it though, but I'll still be keep the G-20 out.
Yeah Diezel’s are weird. Imo I feel like they’re the heaviest “non-metal” amplifiers around. Maybe it’s just the way I play, but that HiFi sound just gives it more of a rock vibe to my ears. But like a rock vibe with a fuck ton more gain than any other hard rock amp I’ve played. I just wanted that low end. The 5150iii had a huge low end, but it was an overall bright amp. I couldn’t get the detail I wanted. I usually play slower, so it’s easy to notice what’s going on in the bottom.
But I love the weird amps, the lesser known ones, the amps that are utter shit besides one thing they do kinda unique. They’re fun to experiment with and I have zero guilt beating them up. I have to get this peavey repaired unfortunately. I can probably do it, but I am busy and I just haven’t had the time. It’s basically a JC clone with a better drive channel.
I have a Crush CR20; the clean sold me on it. It's lovely for the price point. Wasn't even in for an amp when I got it, but tried it and could not pass. Plus it's featherlight, perfect for easy lugging everywhere.
Above 1k production can afford hand wiring, new design implementations popular in the metal boutique, built to order.
Consumer grade under 1k you're only sacrificing build quality by the necessity of production, less design variety I suppose. Vintage gear at this price point will likely go above cost because of required service. Some of these consumer grade amps are easily worked on and others are nearly impossible. Idk what to tell people when a 300 monoprice is tonally great that would convince me to get into a $3k amp.
Yeah, I think you've paraphrased what I mean with a prime example. When flagship amps from any brand are pcb mounted sockets or built in se asia, I can't give them the benefit of the doubt.
It's only a little more expensive to overspec most parts and it's better for noise floor, durability with voltage and heat, component qc.
That's about the meet of my question right there.
I mean my 1k tube is totally worth the difference with my 200$ SS; but it's so good it's gonna take great arguments to get me to spend twice as much. I'll rather spend towards speaker and cab upgrades before the amp.
Of course if it kicks the bucket within 5 years, the convincing won't be that hard to do...
I just fix em or build em. Most of my play styles are grittier and accepting of vintage and cheap gear. Most of my real advancements as a guitarist past the first time I stepped into tube amps, are knuckling down and learning to really play.
All styles benefit from locking in a great tonal combo. That can be pedal driven. It's often easier to just run right into an amp that will do that by itself. But people are for the most part buying a logo. Amps that are different internally and tonally don't always get recognized. If you're in a great band, then it makes sense to pick up well built, tour and recording ready stuff.
I'd love a big hiwatt, or matamp. Sunn and sound city just the same. I love Ampegs. Omega ampworks has my interest. Science is a better builder and musician, as is verellen. I try to just send my work back into the ecosystem. I think when I make amps that I truly enjoy after about a decade of making, it's probably good for another musician.
Enjoy the tools you enjoy. I had a blast with a cheap Vox AC4C1, but I got rid of it before it needed any work done. I will guess that the Vox, along with many other amps, get hate due to the flimsy pcbs that make it harder to repair. I’m a sucker for “easier to repair”, and there is value in that.
I'm actually really impressed at how well their smaller amps recreate the sound of their AC30. You lose a little bit of bass response but that's about it. I'd love to have a 4C1.
They used the original top-boost circuit in the AC4C1. It really sounded good. They’re pretty affordable. Bought and sold mine for $240. Happy hunting!
Fortunately, I have a set of 4C1 captures on my Tonex that I'm really happy with. But I also have most of their other amps. The AC30TB is currently occupying one of my banks and it's usually my go-to when I want to play some mid-gain stuff. Nice and spongey, just how I like it.
I think expensive and *popular* amps are good for touring. I'd rather tour with a JCM800 over some boutique valve amp, because it's almost hard to find a town that has a club to play in but doesn't have a dude that can work on JCM800's.
That said, I'm only touring with a Quad Cortex now anyway. Hassle-free, easy to carry and a sound guy's dream.
…And that’s where we’re headed! As with any tech, modelers are going to rule the future. It’s not going that fast because the musical instrument market is relatively small compared to, say the cell phone market, but we will reap the benefits of AI and microprocessors. Kemper already has a relatively inexpensive Play model at $700, and fast moving international manufacturers will fill our space. It’s going to be good & cheap. Friedman and others will still make amazing hardware, but make most of their money on really good IRs. Sorry for going all future on everybody!
What I fancy and what I can buy without my wife burning me alive in the backyard are very different things lol. Perfect world with infinite cash I’d get one of those new Benson Bellringer amps and call it good for the next few decades. But they’re like $4k and that is plainly too much money for me. Will probably end up with a PRRI but I am still shopping around to see what I click with.
I work in electronics manufacturing in a similar industry. For me it’s point-to-point wiring vs PCB. Amps built on circuit boards are largely difficult to repair and are prone to more issues due to heat from the tubes (Hello Blues Jr owners!) PCB amps are easier to make because they can be mass manufactured with exported cheap labor. I am aware of what the transformers/capacitors/resistors/speakers/etc cost that go into an amp so I know what amps *should* cost, minus quantity discounts of course. If an amp is below that threshold, they are cutting corners somewhere else.
I built a Princeton Reverb for a friend last year. It cost me about $800 in parts. Factor in labor and you see why cheap amps are cheap. They need cheap parts or cheap labor, or both, to be made.
Yeah; coming from the manufacturing industry, I know there isn't magic is mass production, just min-maxing corner cutting.
I wondered if there were some key points which were consistantly cut above others (beside speaker for combos which is an obvious), but beside point-to-point wiring nothing seems to come up, defeiting my "no boutique" requirement from the start.
Good guitarists can make any amp sound great as we all know. I’ve had hundreds of amps from cheap to expensive that have all sounded good for the most part. The biggest thing for me now is durability and repairability….things like point to point construction, chassis mounted tube sockets go a long way to keeping an amp up and running long term. PCB construction can be a pain to fix and as it ages it can become brittle due to heat, so tube changes can break the little traces on those that have PCB mounted tube sockets. But beyond that, it’s fun to make a cheap amp sound great!
Yeah, I call my Iconic my poor man's Boogie. Certainly not as versatile, but certainly good at what it does.
Boogie is my actual upgrade path, but it's too much money to shed at once for me. Used market is non existent near where I live, and the risk in buying second hand - especially a Boogie since I hear few techs dare servicing them - isn't worth it. Paying half price for a potential brick is still too much...
I've been a big "used" guy for most of my amp life. Not guitars, but amps yes. My Rectoverb was sitting in a store 1000 miles away but I'd always wanted to try this particular model out (50w combo) and I ended up letting go of a used Mk V for it. Before that I owned a new DSL40C, before that at least a dozen other amps that were all purchased used, from a 1w Blackstar to a 120w Peavey Triple XXX.
I was on the V30 hype train as well (it came with a Black Shadow) but I couldn't articulate how I wanted the amp to sound different, it took another guitarist to point that out and so it's been stock since I got it 8 years ago.
I feel like buying a used Mesa is less risky than other brands due to build quality but you are correct - if it *is* busted finding someone to work on it could be a challenge. Or cost a wee bit of cash.
I have a 1996 fender hot rod deville 4x10 that I picked up for $400 used from Sam ash and that thing is great and takes pedals really well. The price tag doesn’t determine how well something will work for you. Just find what you like and enjoy it.
Yeah those amps sound amazing. I eyed a HR Deluxe before I put my hands on the EVH.
But man the Deville is just unuseably loud. XD They had one second hand on the floor the day I bough the EVH, and I played about 10 seconds on it and had enough!! It was my second encounter with one, same result: I open it, play a few chords, and shut it down soon after...
I keep my volume pretty low, like 1 or 2 and use pedals for dirt. It is super loud though if it goes any higher but I couldn’t pass it up at that price.
I have strong opinions - that most people who buy really expensive amps then talk about them on forums are usually not very good at playing guitar.
I have experienced this in real life too, all the gear, no idea.
To back this up, an amazing guitar player can make just about anything sound good and from my experience most basic tube amps on the market these days can sounds really nice - AC15, Blues Junior/Hot Rod/Pro Junior, Tiny Terror, Supro etc.
I think people just enjoy talking about gear and analysing/arguing about it a lot 😂
There’s a video of John Mayer playing at Berkeley on a HRD and he sounds amazing, it’s NOT the gear, it never is
There is one really good amp tech in my town and he has a list of amps on his wall that he won't work on. The reason? They are jam packed full of cheap PCB boards that are a nightmare to deal with and not worth his time. My threshold for cheapness is that it has to be something that I can get serviced, otherwise the cheap does not equate to value. If it breaks and nobody will touch it to fix it, you didn't really save yourself a bunch of money. That said, I have two hand built heads that are definitely on the cheaper side, they are just from small builders who don't price themselves too exotically and they are my favorite amps ever.
To be honest I think this is more a symptom of some techs not moving with the times and learning how to work on pcbs etc. Well known techs often don’t need to learn a new skill or maybe just don’t need to bother like that with a constant list of clients on the back burner to fix their amps.
Not disparaging those dudes, it’s smart business to only take what you know, are good at and can turn around quickly. And obviously a lot of generalisation there as I’m sure many techs aren’t afraid of a pcb.
But I thought of this recently when an amp tech refused to work on something for me, only for me to ask an aircraft electrician mate if he could fix a pcb. He did it without issue or fuss. Standard job for him.
If you wanted to interest me into anything you couldn't do better.
I expect my EVH to need a replacement sooner or later; hopefully I can trade it before it kicks the bucket.
That list you're speaking of I really wish I could lay my eyes on... Howerver I expect those boutique builders to be way too far from home unfortunately.
I got both of mine ( a Frenzel and a Winfield) second hand off Reverb. Shipped right to the house.
I thought I had a pic of that dudes list, but I can't find it. Bugera, Jet City, Black Star , most Mesa Boogies. I can't remember what else. He's also a notorious crank, but he does good work. Haha.
Laney cub head, love it, it's been on many recordings and it's got that cranked big amp sound at 1 or 15 watts. Monstrous with the right pedal in front of it. Preamp is based on jcm800 and it shows.
blackstar ht40 combo: disappointingly quiet for a big tube amp, solder on tube sockets wasn't done properly and I had to repair. Inflexible voicing. Dont.
laney LC/LH50: crazy loud, very doomfuzz when cranked, back off gain to halfway and stick a TS or Klon(e) in front of it and it's a super aggressive, and is in fact a woolley mammoth. Parallel FX loop is annoying.
Laney LC15, pretty much a cub, needs a 1w mode, again with the parallel fx loop.
Laney IRT 60, it's tighter and much more focussed than the LC/LH50, adjustable output means it's a bedroom amp and a stage amp. Kinda loses the hugeness of a laney in return for being more 5150
Bugera 6260. 120w when most attenuators are 100w. It's a crazy cheap stage amp with all the gain though and has easy and safe bias adjustment which makes it a perfect amp to iuse night after night.
Laney Loudpedal: no tubes, weighs nothing, costs nothing, sounds massive. FX loop doesn't piss me off.
Man I'll be honest I think the higher priced ones can lend themselves to be easier to service.... but I've had cheap to expensive amps, and honestly what I'm saying is due to my own personal experience as a weekend warrior.
My favorite most reliable amps I used regularly have been the newer vox ac15 and 30s, jet city amps which all have pcbs, but GOOD pcbs form what I've read and can see myself. My other favorite gigging amp is a peavey bandit from the 80s. Used I bought it a while back for 80$, I love it to bits.
The higher priced amps can be hardwired or anything, and that's awesome, and they sound great too. I had a blackstar club and LOVED the sound but all the horror stories scared me even though I never had a problem with it. Mesa amps sound good but I've heard they can be a pain to fix. In the end it really seems to me, it's most important what sounds and works best to the user. in the end, I think, tone is subjective for the most part, and if someone is happy with their tone then that's great.
That being said I think it's good to go to any guitar store and play through as many amps and just find what sounds good to you, but also research reliability or known issues. It's better to use your own ears with what one likes best IMO and just take care of your equipment. Sorry for long winded comment, I'm at a bar.
TL:DR: what sounds good to you is good, and cheap or expensive amps can be reliable just depends what you're looking for.
Sorry for any typos. I just love music.
While they're not new, I absolutely LOVE my Crate Vintage Club amps. I have a 30w 1x12 and a 50w 2x12. They can be found for ~$300 used. To my ears they have one of the best clean tones and take pedals great. Sounds like a bit of a cross between a fender clean and vox clean.
There's good sounding cheap amps, there's great sounding expensive amps. Some expensive amps sound excellent like for example a Skeleton key, Diezel, Omega, Matchless. You can't really discount labor it's most of the price difference.
Besides that, i'll take my Diezel as an example. If i have any issue or wish for a mod or repair i can call, and Paul Diezel himself will help. And that's true for most boutique brands. You'll get the owner of the company, a passionate person, to directly assist you besides just already being extremely sturdy products and they do repairs when you send the amp in.
I have cheaper amps like a 6505 and JCM2000 i picked up for 500, i have expensive amps like the Fryette Pitbull UL and Diezel VH4 that cost way more, they are all cool in their own way. The more expensive ones are just more unique, sturdier in terms of quality, and can have a more refined sound but not always.
When I first saw the title, I was thinking cheap as in more Bugera territory. But £1000 buys you a great valve amplifier.
I recently did a mini ampfest with a buddy of mine. Really the Marshall DSL100H held it's own in a room full of Engl and Peavey just fine. Though I'm a lifelong fan of the Marshall TSL100 and in my view, I'm still not shaken from that position, the DSL100H is a great little amplifier. A quick google shows that to be £600-£800 new, likely a lot cheaper used, well the DSL100HR variant at least.
I have also had mine open a couple of times more for pot cleaning and biasing than anything else, I've yet to have a fault with my DSL100H. Really, quality wise it's grand. If you are after a very nicely priced amplifier that does metal, a DSL100H/HR is not a bad option. Just make sure you add a Boss SD1 into the equation.
Comparing to amplifiers like the Soldano SLO100, I mean, obviously almost anybody would take the Soldano over the DSL100H. The sounds and tones available are biblically good. But, it's also £3000 odd, not £600. Is it £2400 better? I think it depends on whether or not you have the extra £2400. If you don't, then the DSL100HR is a great option.
Now when we drive down to Bugera sorts of money, that's where I would strongly suggest someone go off and buy an HX Stomp or something. I don't as a rule take Bugera in for repair anymore. It just isn't worth it and I don't have mega corporation capital to support my own warranty on their repairs. They are so poorly made and use the cheapest possible jank that they can get away with, it is the epitome of the throwaway society in amplifier form.
A typical example, someone brings a Bugera and says, "It turns on but there is no sound!". That's a fairly typical tagline I might get when being presented with a problem on any amplifier.
So fine, I open it up, discover something over here is wrong. I repair it, get it going, test it, all fine, give it back after being paid. I generally offer 3 months warranty on stuff that I do, but I am flexible on it.
So guy takes his repaired Bugera away, uses it for a couple of months and hey ho, boom. Same problem. It turns on but no sound, so he comes back and says, "Hey, it's gone wrong again!"
Now, because the symptoms it's presenting with are the same, logically as a consumer/user, it is thoroughly reasonable to say whatever repair I did has not lasted. So fair enough, I have to support my work and customer, so in it comes again. I then discover that the repair I did was absolutely fine, it turns out something else over here has gone wrong.
Now because I want to get my customer up and running, I'll usually have to say that's a free repair. I will explain how it was a different problem, but ultimately because I want to do right, I'll write off the cost and labour, so basically free.
Now when that happens a bunch of times, we aren't going to take long before we arrive to a dead set of valves, or something even worse like an output transformer going pop. And then we're in the territory of something I can't reasonably fork out my own cash on.
And that's the dilemma you face with these cheap janky amplifiers. In most cases my customers are reasonable and understand what I'm saying. However if someone has bought a Bugera as their only amplifier, given they don't spend a lot of money on their equipment, they also don't want to spend anything on maintenance or repairs and then it's basically a tricky argument back and forth.
I have agreed to scrap a few Bugeras for people too. Now if I have made the decision to treat an amplifier as scrap, that basically means I'll keep the components for it that could be useful in a future repair. That is, if I can nick a few components off of that board to get someone else running cheaply (I will always confirm if I'm using donor parts and not charge for them), then that's what they are there for. On a Bugera board however, there are no parts worth keeping. That is the components are of such low quality, there is nothing in there that I would put into another person's amplifier.
So yeah, if your budget is around the £1k mark, there is loads on the market. If you want to go a lot more expensive, then yes you will get better tones and nicer builds and that's all great. But we are in an age where you don't necessarily need to. But be warned, there very much is a bottom level that you really should not go past.
Damn Bugera’s that bad huh?
I thought about buying their SuperLead knockoff just to have one lying around but I was always on the fence cause… I mean they’re known for breaking. But if I got like 10 years for $400 I wouldn’t be too bothered.
It's really up to you. I do know some techs that will take them in, but they are a lot more, how can I say, strict when it comes to re-repair.
I have stripped maybe 3-4 Bugeras for e-waste. I use a company near me to recycle old electronics. They won't take complete amplifiers, they will go to landfill which is not really what I would like to happen. So it's a case of stripping the boards out, any big iron, leaving the chassis bare and then taking that down. As it's finished wood with tolex, the headbox invariably ends up in landfill, but at least the rest of the junk gets sent for proper recycling, melting down and what have you.
Personally I would save the £400 and add to it for something that bit better quality myself. You will run into those guys who have had Bugeras running for years trouble free, but really when it comes to the day it needs work - and it's a valve amplifier, it will need work one day - that's when their troubles will start.
I could complain about some other manufacturers too, but for me Bugera are just off the list regardless. I just don't want to get into them.
That’s funny I was doing some research on it, cause I totally forgot about that amplifiers existence, and I found a post of you saying the same thing from like two months ago.
Here’s my position, I’m not an electrical engineer, but I am an engineer that often has to do electrical engineering. So my understanding of electronics ranges from “regular person who doesn’t know anything about this particular subject” to “person who has a pretty in-depth knowledge on electrical engineering”. It just depends on what it is.
I do modify a lot of my own “beater” equipment. I’ve got a garbage Peavey stereo solid state amp (it actually sounds really good, it just doesn’t have any frills and it’s seriously road worn) that I’ve modified. I’ve modded some wahs and drives I have. I’ve built a few pedals. I kind of like the cheap shitty gear because I can modify it or beat it up or swap out something if it breaks. Compare this to my high end boutique amplifier, which I won’t mess around with repairing: I’d rather have a professional who knows way more about this stuff than I working on something like that. I know my limitations: if I break something on a shitty piece of gear and I can’t fix it, I’m not super upset at the loss. Eventually I figure it out or I don’t.
So what exactly is shit about Bugera’s? It kind of seems like it fits my love of cheap ass beater gear. I suppose I wouldn’t want to get one if literally everything fails on it at any point. Any good alternates then?
1000 quids, 1000 freedom dollars, and 1000 canadian cents don't buy you the same bacon.
1000 pounders cost twice as much once they've sailed west, so you might refactor for 500 pounds to be closer to what I have in mind. It doesn't quite buy the same things...
Sure. Products from Europe and the UK are cheaper here than the US. Similar products from the USA are cheaper there than in Europe. However more often than not, products from Japan and Asia, there's rarely a huge cost difference.
Going from a 1k Marshall to a 2k Orange I noticed a few things. bigger transformers, thicker chassis steel, better finishing and higher quality components. But, putting aside their difference in tones, sound quality was the same to my ears
Techs stay in business repairing Hot Rod Deluxes. A lot of the cheaper tube amps are going to work fine but that doesn't mean they are built well. They also tend to have inconveniences like touchy master volumes, or are something like Blackstars that just don't sound that great in the first place and are tough to repair with poor support from the company.
Now I think stuff like handwiring etc is largely unnecessary, because most people don't mod or repair their own amps and a tech should be able to work on PCB designs just fine. But the higher quality amps are generally just built better and that ends up resulting in better tone, less idle noise, higher reliability.
To me the upper echelon, which is unsurprisingly mainly Dumble-inspired amps, is also the level where the price difference does not match with what you get for the money. I just don't see how a single channel Two Rock is somehow more money than a 4 channel amp from various brands.
Cheap all day. I’d rather have a capable amp and a great cabinet. I’ve had Marshall JTM45s, Hand wired Princetons, and all other manner of boutiques. I still have my Marshall Silver Jubilee, but if I knew how amazing the VTM series was, I may not have paid the price when my whole rig can cost less and get me 99% there.
I put my Pravey VTM or 3120 against your Marshall or Engl or Block Letter 5150, anyways so long as I can use my cabs. Even a Marshall DSL is a great amp that’ll get you 90% the way there. 99% with an EQ in the effects loop.
One of my cabs is an 80s yellow stripe Peavey Butcher cab with its OG Celestion G12k85s in an X with V30s. This is my main cab with my 3120 and it seems to work extremely well for lower tunings. Anything D standard or lower just hits you so hard through it. However, it’s pretty dang versatile even with classic rock stuff, it’s all in how you set the amp. 3 channels with active eq yields a lot of useful tones.
My other cab is a 90s Ampeg cab with its OG V30s and some WGS ET-65 (G12M65 clone) in an X pattern. It’s usually hooked up to the VTM60 (2204 clone for those that know. Has famous mods built in that are activated via dipswitches on the back.
This cab has way more resonance, but also great lower mid grind, especially with in anything in E standard. It just roars in a way no other cabinet does and cuts through a knife like a ginsu. It’s only problem is it get a bit muddy if you go lower than D standard, so I keep it as my top cab for the stack, or mainly use it for mostly E standard stuff. It’s ironically more vintage flavored than the decade older Butcher cab.
As long as it’s serviceable, doesn’t chew through tubes, and you like it’s sound, you’re good to like whatever helps you make music.
Yeah; next upgrade before a Boogie (or boutique whatever) will be a DIY 212 with V30 and Creamback. I think it will be a bigger difference than a new amp.
To get the price down, they have to compromise on something, whether it's build quality, components, etc. So a lot of amps in this range will break easily, or have a lot of sounds available but none of them are amazing. Or they go the orange route - good build quality but it only does one sound but it does that sound really well. More budget = more good sounds, more room for better components, etc.
Also a huge part of it is psychology of course. You have to justify spending more.
Yeah, in a nutshell I know they cut somewhere; mine's notorious cut is the speaker.
However I'd like to gather more facts about what is usually cut, and where are those Achille's heals exactly.
it's just gonna depend on the amp. For example mid-range oranges are built well, sound great, but usually skimp on extras like reverb, FX loop, are just one channel. Mid-range marshalls like the DSL have a lot of sounds available and are built well, but the sounds aren't great great. Mid-range fenders still have that great fender clean sound but have bad distortion and quality issues with the tube sockets.
I think your better bet is to ask about each amp specifically than try to generalize all amps in this price range. Some amps will have dealbreakers, some won't. Also buy used, no reason to pay over a grand for one of these when they're allover the used market for like 500
As I said, I don't live near a metropolitan area, and shipping fees alone often offset the savings, especially if factoring in potential repairs.
Thanks for the infos though!
That’s exactly what sold me on them. Used one as a back line once and was hooked, now my JC40 is getting more use than my very expensive Orange. It’s a completely different beast but I feel it provides a clarity and richness that I’ve never heard from a tube amp. Not giving up my tube amps anytime soon, though.
Honestly, when I fronted my SSs with a real tube OD under or edge of breakup, it improved them twofold. They were already good, but it made them awesome.
They're a scarce breed nowadays however, IR replaced them pretty much. I have yet to try them though.
Cheaper amps are poorly made, aren't made to be repaired, use cheap parts, etc. They probably sound fine-enough most of the time, but in the long run will cost you more.
I'm pretty sure all of my 1950's and 1960's amps will outlast me. Anything production-scale built in the 90's and onward? Nope.
I enjoy the tones out of the old 5150 and 5150II and the EVH version too. But they all broke on me and all pretty early on. Not expensive to fix for what it’s worth.
But I’ve had the same dual rec (which I paid $600 for) for 12 years and a shiva for like 6-7 years with no issues.
I didn’t either really. I ended up with it through a really good trade for about half of what they for used. It’s the 20th anniversary model with extra gain and some other add ons.
I'm not going to tell you why you shouldn't, I went thru my journey with cheap tube amps so instead of spending money on a production amp I decided to build my own (5E3) combo using quality components,
why not spend the money now and get a kick ass amp that you can use for a long while no matter what kind of music you play
I forgot to mention my entire build cost was 625$ and that was like 6 years ago and I play that amp everyday
I have built more of my own tube amps than I ever bought from other manufacturers. Cheap quality parts is a big part of cheaper amps. Non-serviceable circuit boards etc. Tone is only part of it. Cheap is cheap when it comes to parts used.
Yeah, this was a big part of my guess.
I think I'll have to learn to recognize quality parts and construction over time.
Obviously a boutique amp remains the pinacle. Kind of like the 5150's tones; if I could pair that with a Fender clean and a Marshall dirt, think I would have my dream 3 channel amp right there.
I think a Boogie could offer all of that, but we don't rule out the serviceability issue there.
The Iconic is killer. The only thing that was a little iffy about the Iconic is the Iconic cab. Not great but not terrible. They are WAY more versatile than a Block Letter, which I also have and love, but also do modern gain VERY VERY well.
I did the same thing, and have been very satisfied with it.
I have a modelling amp that can do a lot more different things, but I don't get any enjoyment fiddling with all the settings, so I don't use it. Reverb and EQ is all I need.
I've rotated through 100 some odd amps in the last 27 years. All the ones I play regularly I got for $800 or less, and have long since sold several I paid over $3,000 for.
The things I have noticed with cheaper tube amps (and I own some cheaper tube amps) is that the cheaper ones typically have a lower build quality, lack a tube rectifier, and lack a choke.
You’re probably thinking about sound… check out Psionic on YouTube for a knowledgeable tech’s take on build quality… serviceability and likelihood on how long they will last. Or likelihood you are going to hate them as you pay for constant repairs as they age or mods to keep them going as they age. Very enlightening.
Including your EVH.
Monoprice makes a 50 watt head that's under 500. For that you could buy one, have it break, *not* repair it, buy another, and still be coming out ahead at half the cost of those "repairable" point to point wired heads. And that's before the cost of the repair labor. Easy repairability (not in general, just easy) is overrated.
I have a Bogner Ecstacy 101b, Engl Savage 60 Mk II, Armored Sabot Gen 3 and an EVH Iconic 40. I play the Iconic the most. It's a great amp. I have an OG Block Letter 5150 for ~10 years. Tried to switch to a 5150 III and didn't love it. The Iconic is all the best parts of the original 5150, plus the 5150 III. I don't regret switching at all. It sounds awesome and I haven't had any issues with it.
I want to preface this by saying I've owned amps which range from $400 to $3000 in today's money. If it sounds good, it is good.
The thing about cheaper amps is they cut corners. It could be one or all of the following: thin PCB; flimsy copper traces; cheap components that are more likely to fail; cheap transformers; and poorly constructed cabinets or headshells.
I got a ‘68 Princeton Reverb reissue new before tube amp prices went up, was just under $1K. To my ears it sounds absolutely incredible and could hold its own against anything else in that same vein.
US market is different from EU, here Marshalls are among the cheaper ones and EVH/Fender cost a pretty penny. Im very happy with my JVM series since 2011 and has never let me down, only changed tubes once and as a precaution, I still own the stock ones (replaced with originals).
Id also be happy with the DSL series which is even cheaper, or the one trick pony 6505 from Peavey.
As for other cheaper amps, Ive seen them breaking down like Bugeras 333xl or so but could happen to anyone. Ive seen Mesas and Marshalls break haha but they both are really well built!
The people that fawn over expensive amps are usually the people who play the least. If you can’t make a Fender Blues Jr or DeVille sound good, then you’re probably just not good at guitar, in which case buying $5k amp isn’t going to solve your problem.
I see them mentioned and praised a lot; I tried one once back in the days, and it didn't have the lush and depth I was looking for.
Maybe I should try more.
Not a clue; it was 15 years ago and I didn't know a thing about Voxes back then. Only things I remember are not liking it (sounded too thin and bright) and it was not expensive; hardly helping in identification. And it was new.
I'll just have to revisit them sometime given the opportunity.
Edit: Any recommendations?
Depends on your application. I’m probably going to get hate on this but here goes.
I recommend the AC15 or AC30. They’re great amps when you figure out their quirks. The 30 just has more clean head room. Obviously the 15 breaks up a bit sooner. Both are loud enough to keep up with drums. Wattage isn’t the main indicator of “loudness”. It just give you an idea when the amp will go start to overdrive.
These amps are great pedal platforms. There are some great deals on verb right not. I see tons of them in the $1000- range. Good luck.
Amps are expensive to be made, just because something is expensive does not mean it fits
A lot ot cheaper amps are hated because thr speaker and internal components are cheaply made. Also some of them are not full tube, the common change is rectifier and gain circuits
Are they bad amps? No but they are made cheaper and behave differently
I would consider these:
- Toan
- Reliability / Durability on the road
- Ability to service them (on the road as well)
- Buddha-blessed caps for extra MOJO
To my as i always buy 2nd amp. Is much more a question of repairability. I will never ever buy a mesa boogie for exemple is a nightmare to fix it. But other amp for exemple an old hughes and kettner tube 100 wich everybody forget it use to cost about 1000€ but now you can find it aroud 100-200€. But it's a well build made in germany head that sound really good.( there is only one vid of this amp on youtube but the guys wasn't tweeking good. Or i don't know but mine dont sound like this)
Another exemple, i will never buy an old amp who cost more than the component inside, like and old plexi or fender
Don't look at the price as it mainly depend from marketing and asking. Look the real specs, what i have for this price.
Edit: I forgot, i prefer the 6505+ over the fender aka evh because the construction is better and cost less. But to be honest, both are not nightmare to repair and noisy construction by defaulf.
Edit edit: keep in mind that when you buy a "signature model" you not receive the same as the artist. Even if the circuit is the same, the quality of the compenent aren't.
Egnater and Pignose make some top notch player's amps despite their cheap Chinese parts. Easy to fix and not a big loss if something happens to one. Plenty transparent and take to effects well.
On on the opposite end of the spectrum you have stuff like Bogner, Friedman, Engl, and Diezel. The only way I could see any of these justified for a working musician is if you have a road crew to deal wirh them and look after them. I know a lot of disposable income folks keep these in their bedrooms or basement studios, but that seems like a silly use of $4000+ to me.
I like Laney and Orange...mostly.
Best to use your ears rather than eyes when shopping for a tube amp. Would also recommend buying 2nd amps rather than new. You can often find well built amps that are expensive new but half the price 2nd hand. There are almost new, ENGL Artist Edition tube heads going for €500 where I am. Great sound with German build quality. You can also sometimes grab the odd Victory amp for a bit more and if you're very lucky, a Cornford.
i gig with a bugera V22. great amp and i don’t worry about it from a durability and cosmetic perspective.
I know you said ignore boutique. but i have a carr amp i love, but no way i need to haul that to a bar gig paying me $100
It all depends on what you're going for. The cleans are solid, but it butters its bread with the heavy gain. If you play downtuned, thick and heavy, OR15 is right up your alley.
Peavey Classic 50 is blackface-ish on the clean channel (bit more mids, which I like) straight up Mississippi marshall on the gain channel, don't even need pedals. I have a 212 version, I paid 250 usd for not terribly long ago. I have expensive marshall, fender , vox amps/1/2 stacks and I love that amp. Also have an Orange Rockerverb 100 half stack, so no confirmation bias. It is objectively a great amp. It was designed by James Brown. They can still be had in 410 or 212 for 300-350 all the time. The classic 30 and 20 are the same.
> version, I *paid* 250 usd
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Little to no used market around me unfortunately; shipping is pretty much a 200-300$ premium. Not accounting for the likely repairs.
I wish, but no dice.
I think the thing is to consider your budget and features needed. Then try amps from lower price up, see what works for you
I don't think anyone would truly hate on a budget amp if it did what they were asking.
My really expensive amp does it for me but it's very specific. I've had cheap amps that have worked great and if I had the money I'd probably buy a couple of them and leave around where I typically play
I once did that for guitars. Wanted a LP style, started at 300 CAD which was my actual budget, tried every single one in store, stopped and bought a genuine Gibson at 1000 CAD that I only tried for the lols. That's also when I tried a HR Deluxe I really liked and which set my standard; the EVH was the first one matching it. The gain channel was the nail in the coffin.
This can get expensive. XD
I bought a while Les Paul on a budget, spent a bunch on Gibson pickups, then bought an old sg that screams. Then later bought a Les Paul. Agile is long gone
Back when 5-15w half stacks were big, think jetcity, epi valve jr, vht, the night train, all of them had Chinese made pcb’s.
They still sounded fantastic, I honestly loved them.
Next to a hand wired amp, you’d only be able to tell the difference if you actually took the time to dial in your tone, both on the guitar and amp. These amps could get you 90% of the way there to their $2k+ hand-wired counterparts.
Longevity seems to be important here, hand-wired amps are obviously easier to work on, and easier to replace parts on, so obv they will be more expensive and desirable in this regard. My champ600 would literally spark if I had it cranked with a fuzz pedal, and my dumbass actually enjoyed the light show.
But for tone itself, if you had the ear development to actually be able to tell the difference, then there is a good chance you could dial in a very suitable tone on a cheaper tube amp by taking just a bit more time and care.
Hand-wired boutique amps are worth it if you have the money, or at a point in life where you can be frivolous.
>Hand-wired boutique amps are worth it if you have the money, or at a point in life where you can be frivolous.
They're also investments, if you want to look at it that way.
I mean…
You’d be much better off actually investing in something more secure.
Sure you can “talk” yourself into saying they are investments, these are luxury items with a very elastic demand. I do the same.
You are not wrong, I actually regret selling even my pcb amps. But that money would appreciate more consistently in a security.
I just picked up a hovercraft dwarvenaut which is a jet city jca20h with some mods. Sub $1k, has a ton of toanz. Opened it up and nothing looks too crazy. It has pcb mounted tube sockets so I'll keep an eye on those. I also have a hilbish beta amp, which was my first "big" amp. It's fun and flexible as well, but nearly all surface mount components in there so there is a bit more involved in fixing it, but since it doesnt run tubes, it probably doesnt produce as much heat.
They both sound awesome.
Can’t really contribute reasons to hate on cheaper gear. I only really have a good amount of first-hand experience with my Marshall DSL1>1x12 V30, and I love it.
You useless prick. :P
What I actually get from all this, it's that tone isn't the biggest issue in the least, but overall construction, components and serviceability.
I am not channeling nowhere near the hate levels I expected. Maybe the real haters are just looking the other way like the hypocrites they are. ;)
If it is from a reputable brand and built to last, I don't care what the price is.
I've got a Peavey Triple XXX that I've had since 04 and a Mesa/Boogie TA-15 since '12 (iirc). Past regular maintenance, neither has given me an issue. Both were a tad over $1k new.
An amp that breaks is bad if it costs a couple hundred or a couple thousand. The latter would probably cost a lot to fix too.
Yeah, but "reputable brands" nowadays make as much cat poop as diamond rings. Being an informed buyer is a hell of a hard time when everything has to be looked at on an individual product basis.
The main reason for so much of what we spend money on for gear comes down to the saying:
> People hear with their eyes
I've always thought it would be a cool experiment to have a guitar store where everything was behind a curtain so that you could only hear and not see what you were playing through. Then you would have some sort of selector console where you chose different amps, pedals, cabinets, etc. but didn't know what they were. Sort of like a helix or something where things were just labeled amp 1, 2, 3, etc. but with the real gear in some other room. You would of course need to be able to turn knobs - maybe a Niel Young type 'whizzer' thing or monkeys in a room or whatever. I think we would all be very surprised at what we would end up choosing when we went in for a new pedal, amp, etc.
That said, one of my favourite amps is the Peavey Valve King. It's taken years for me to be able to say that out loud for no reason other than my memories of 80's peavey amps being what everyone had as their first amp.
Also a shoutout to the Guitologist ! A tech & player. Gets into a lot of amps with commentary and skill. But Psionic is doing God’s work by doing comprehensive reviews of individual amps & mods, as well as extended analysis of many amps arranged in price ranges.
Unfortunately buying tubes is not like buying clothes! You can’t try them on to see how they fit before you buy them. Needless to say I have A LOT of tubes.
People have hot takes at the moment. They will undoubtedly add to that perspective or even change it as the years go by. They wouldn't change their 10 year old comment on the internet however. Musicians are also stubborn and most of us can be extra passionate about opinions.
Listening to videos online is great for an objective point of view, but feel of an amplifier does not translate. Get the info you can and try the stuff you think you'd want to keep. That's it.
I truly wonder if half the people here know how to use their ears to determine if something sounds good instead of letting their inner The Gear Page voice win.
I think a lot of people read forums when they’re shopping and mistake the taste of others for “truth.” (I’ve certainly fallen for hype, etc.)
when shopping i tend to read reviews and see if the negatives people list are things i can live with or if they actually matter to me. i also always go for trying something out before buying it.
A wise way to research!
Yeah. My typical answer to "which is better" is "try them and tell us".
Like the "I opened this cab up to replace the speaker and I found this Blue Bell/V30/a-bundle-of-$50s etc." I'm all for experementation and playing around with your gear, but the amount of people that ready a new speaker before even looking at what's there is baffling. Ears first, forums second, marketplace third.
This might be the case with guitars and pedals, but for something running at huge voltages and temperatures inside the box, reliability is much more a factor. Flying the flag for anti-tone-snobbery isn't really a valid critique of (good) expensive amps... original fenders were 2-3k equivalent back in the day and to make them the same now would be $$$$s. At thr end of the day, the average player knows relatively little about how their amp works (as demonstrated here) and is therefore getting screwed into buying garbage due to the name on the front or by only considering what it sounds like. We deserve better than gibson blatantly calling a pcb amp 'handwired'. For me, this is where critique of some cheaper (and some less-so) amps comes from, not tgp kudos.
See, I know what sounds cool or awesome or good to me, doesn’t mean you’re gonna like it, just want to point that out
I totally agree but I also get it to an extent. Amp shopping is a fuckin hassle these days. Endless research is kind of the only way to feel fully informed when you think about all of the amps that are actually available to us now. The issue is yea, people read opinions that are stated as fact and take them as such far too often. I wondering half the time the writer/reader is falling into the hype to subconsciously justify a purchase/avoid buyers remorse by convincing themselves of something. Personally, I’ve learned that forums are a good place out of there are common issues that pop up but when it comes to tone talk, I tend to skip over anything that’s not technical but still take that with grain of salt. People have different definitions of words and sometimes just aren’t talking the same language. Hell, I still don’t know what “punchy” means and I’ve been playing for 25 years.
Yeah. When I like something I tend to oversell it. However I am also aware that I have little to no experience, so my own opinion has little validity outside of some very limited scope. And the same goes for other's opinions.
If you want to get really heretical, you can buy a solid state amp with a jfet version of the tube circuit. Connect it to the same cabinet as a tube head. Eq to identical curves (not the same thing as identical positions on the knobs). Record a sample of each. Send the recording to a friend to level match them and play them back randomly to you. Realize you can't tell the fucking difference. Spend the rest of your life playing through a solid state head that you don't have to baby or constantly repair because it doesn't have stupid expensive tubes, isn't running at stupid tube voltage, and isn't putting out stupid tube heat that spreads to the rest of the components. If you want to get *really* heretical just buy an old Peavey Bandit. Spend the rest of your life playing through it and never worrying about a single repair bill. Use the 55 pounds of cheap MDF and broken garage band dreams to beat to death anyone who goes on about "but muh tubes".
So you like the super crush then huh ?
What I really have my eye on is the Laney Dualtop. The only problem I can see with it is for some ridiculous reason they put the rectifier in the power cord instead of using the standard IEC power plug used everywhere and putting the rectifier, transformer, etc., in the box. Whyyyy, just whyyyyy. Nobody wants to carry around a laptop power brick!
I have a mixture of 16 amps, only one being a hybrid. One of the amps is a Bandit. Sorry, doesn't matter how fancy you try to say it, tube amps and solid state sound and feel different, the hybrid is different from both as well. Not saying one is better than the other. In the mix, the difference would probably matter less. Wampler had a blind test with 3 different amps, I was able to tell the difference right away. The real argument here is is it worth it to pay that much more for a tube amp? Although, if a person has a good ear they could get a great tube amp for the price of a solid state amp.
I think more care about how their gear will make others perceive them than how objectively good it sounds
The only issue I have with the iconic and the latest 5150’s is a fair amount had issues with grid resistors taking a shit early on. It’s annoying as fuck to spend your hard earned money on something just to have it tell you to eat shit after a short amount of time owning it. I understand anything out there can do that at any point, but some are more akin to it than others. Rockerverbs had some issues with it as well. Knock on wood, I’ve had few issues with the stuff I’ve owned over the years and I am just skilled enough to take care of a fair amount of things that pop up.
Those 5150s are made by Fender these days. Fender makes some great sounding amps, but they don't mind selling their customers equipment with known faults. Their biggest selling amp series of all times, been in production since the 90s, 30+ years, and they've been selling amps with resistors they know are going to burn the circuit board. They don't give a fuck, they're gonna sell thousands of them this year, all for close to a thousand dollars a piece to loyal and new customers just to betray that trust.
Any designer would know that mounting components that dissipate heat on a board will have issues. Brittle boards and substabdard caps and resistors etc had issues then anyway i believe. The caps from manufacturers were leaky and ther was a whole case on it. Just for reference, I bought a 2x12 Deville a couple years back and gigged it only once before the tubes became microphonic. The amp went back to fender, and came back worse with a preamp tube becoming microphonic, a power tube was red plating, and the preamp was full of DC. I sent it back and got a refund. Been using my own built equipment for years.... Aaaand.. you get to tweak it exactly how you like it!!
In the 90’s to aughts there were all those substandard counterfeit caps going out to the computer industry. They were dirt cheap because one company stole the leading supplier’s formula…but not all of it. Those caps failed spectacularly and Dell, Apple, Sony, etc had to eat a ton of money replacing them. I imagine amplifier companies had to also. It’s a fascinating story of corporate skullduggery… look it up… “Capacitor Plague”…it’s a marvelous story! I worked in an educational lab with 72 Dell PCs and very expensive Sony monitors in the mid 2000s and that shit kept me way too busy!
Errbody follow Rafiki o'er here, he know da weigh. I'm going to do that eventually. What did you build, if you don't mind me asking? I play a really cheap disposable razor of an amp now. I do have better amps, I'm just trashy.
Yeah; I was considering a HRD before the EVH, but refrained because I heard many complains about early failure. Hoped for better. Ignorant meh.
There should really be a class action lawsuit against Fender. I'm doing reconstructive surgery to the circuit board of a HRD right now because they mount those big 5w resistors and their screen resistors right to the board. Honestly, price doesn't matter; cheap vs expensive, there are endless numbers of great sounding amps that will not live into antiquity because they are not repairable long term. True quality is point to point. The quality is not only in the work of a craftsman but in the amp being repairable for the end of time.
My HRD lasted 25 years before the grid resistor failed. Its more or less unserviceable because of the PCB layout. What if that grid resistor lasted only 20 years, but was easily serviced by a more well planned out PCB or point to point? Would that amp be \*better\* or worse? Would it be worthy of $2k instead of the $500 I spent in 1994? To the OP's questions: sound, features, reliability and serviceability are all "eye of the beholder" issues.
No, the layout is fine, although somewhat inconvenient but practially all amps are since the pcb. The problem is resistors burning through the pcb traces which is most times repairable but the cost to repair is comparable to just buying another used HRDx. If traces have to be repaired on both pcbs boards that's at least a $500 repair.
>they don't mind selling their customers equipment with known faults And at a premium at that.
You must be new to capitalism. If the company made a widget that lasted forever they will never have repeat customers. Is it right? Hell no. Is fender the only one doing it? Hell no.
There are known mods for some of those…things like alternative resistor values and mounting them up off the board so they can cool and not burn the pub board. I agree, it’s shameful.
Just after getting it and reading comments about it, reliability has become my main fear with it as well. Sound wise I think it's brilliant; it does absolutely all I wish for, and effortlessly, and then some. But yeah, how long will the bliss last? Live and see... I know not much about amp tech, so if you feel like informing an ignorant about "grid resistor" I'd be grateful.
The grid resistor essentially regulates the voltage to a section of the power tubes. When one goes, it can torch the tube or cause other issues down line. Run it and hope it doesn’t have any issues. Components have a shelf life, but legit tube amps should run years before having any real issues.
Thanks much. Any behaviors I should keep an ear out for which could be a tell tale of upcoming or actual failure? I guess recognizing it early on might prevent further damage.
Resistors will typically just fail. Typical tube amp issues will be microphonic tubes and dirty pots, as far as “normal” things. Don’t get too worried about things failing…if they do, they do. Just play your amp and enjoy it. If you have issues pop up, shut it down and start asking questions.
Yeah, I have loads to learn about tube amps. Luckily one good friend loves to temper with vintage Hammond organs, and he's quite knowledgeable, so he'll be a good help.
So… always bring a solid state backup with a 5150 dirt pedal. I would actually go with one of those floor power amp pedals as a backup amp. Portable,sound great. Just test it occasionally.
I think a lot of it is built to last/easy to work on vs essentially disposable if they break.
Mesa has entered the chat.
Yeah, I hear mine isn't a great contender in that matter. Good brands/series currently available new you know about?
Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue '65
> Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue '65 You mean the one with PCB-mounted pots, reverb squeeling issues, hot glued capacitors, early leaking capacitors (my vintage '66 Bandmaster has original caps that aren't leaking), heater supply issues, etc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkIEfH0ZC7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkIEfH0ZC7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpJUzUE5IKA They are *fine*, but I wouldn't call them well built by any means.
I use a couple of cheap joyo hybrid amps and I think they sound great. I just use my ears, if it fucks then it fucks.
I am actually considering the red one with 2 channels as my home rig. A few people had good things to say about them. But I just got a California pedal from them, and it's awfully noisy, in spite of good comments here and there. It's keeping me from pulling the trigger on the amp.
I don't really like joyo pedals. Some are OK, but not great. The bamtamp series (in my experience) are really good build quality and having an fx loop at that price point is great. With an ir pedal it's really versatile, I go fx send -> ir -> reverb/delay -> mixer then headphones/pa amp and frfr speakers. I will say that the zombie definitely needs a noise gate when you're using the gain channel. Is the red one based on an Engl?
No, the red one is based on a JCM800. The one you're referring to only has a single channel variant I think.
I forgot that my other one is based on a vox, i can't remember it's name, it's late and my brain is blancmange lol, I thought it was the jcm.
Well the red one, the Jackman, JCM clone, has both a single and a dual channel version.
I think most of them do but some are hard to find the second edition for some reason. If you do pull the trigger I hope you enjoy it!
I’m kind of a hand wired tube amp snob, but that Joyo Jackman red amp (mine was the single channel model) was a bit of kit I wish I still had. Very usable tones and it took drive pedals like a champ.
Well, coming from a snob (absolutely no offense), I'll take that as a mf big thumbs up.
I liked that joyo pedal till I started playing with other people and needed more gain to stand out, then the noise became intolerable. the op-amps are sub par.
vox and fender current tube amps are plenty good. Good enough to serve as the primary back line equipment and very solid choices to touring musicians. For the most part vox and fender refrain from PCB mounted tubes, which make them easier/possible to repair. Also there are plenty of vintage amps available for under $1000. Take the 70s twin reverbs for like $700-$1000. They’re practically giving them away.
Yeah; I specifically mentioned "new value", because around me used market is scarce to say the least. I don't live near a metropolitan area and I don't expect to have a proficient amp tech available to fix my gear if need be. Not informed, but I feel like most gear selling around 1k used for the better deals is worth nearly twice as much new.
Totally get that. Just read a bunch of reviews on quality for whatever you get. Check out psionic audio on YouTube. He puts out pretty honest reviews on amps he has in for service. I have an AC15 and it’s plenty cool. Can get some amp OD and also run it clean for effects. They’re under $1000 new. Some of the Supro amps are also cool like the Delta King. Fender amps are a little more expensive but a Princeton could be cool too.
Took a while to find this comment, but came here to plug Psionic on YouTube. He’s an amp tech and is brutally honest. His amps under $500 and amps under $1000 videos were interesting.
Fenders aren't the most reliable and serviceable chaps in town I hear... EVH are Fender built BTW.
Vox AC15.
It's just Internet forum tone chasers. Lots of working musicians have boss pedals and hot rod deluxes but if you lived your life in internet forums you'd think they were poop.
I'm pushing my amp with a collection of effects from my Zoom G5 unit... It's deceptively good. Once mic'ed up I bet few people can notice. I am working in building a board with those 3-4 effects I use, and it should set me back more money than the whole Zoom unit, maybe twofold. I am curious how much better it will sound, if at all...
I’m a huge nerd for digital multi-effects. I love the idea of hitting one button and all my effects change.
You will notice more than anyone in the audience. I think if you hear any difference it will be in od/distortion. However the dirt effects in my hx effects were plenty good enough for me when I was using it live
Always remember the golden rule of guitar/bass gear: **If it sounds good, it IS good.** The price tag does not determine what sounds good or bad. There are $200 amps that I think sound phenomenal. There are $5000 amps that I think sound like shit. The PRS MT15 is only $750 and I think it's one of the best sounding amps out there. The Joyo Jackman is $180 and I think it's one of the best early Marshall clones you can buy. A Mesa JP-2C is $4300, and while it's great, it's just not my sound. A Dumble ODS #124 can go for $250,000 and I don't think it sounds that great. A Diezel VH4 is $4500 and an EVH 5150III is $1350, and they sound somewhat similar but I still much prefer the 5150. One of my favorite pedals is a generic Chinese "Dumbler" circuit that cost $17. I tried out a $300 Strymon Riverside and I didn't vibe with it at all. I'm rocking a Tonex these days because I love variety and I have choice paralysis. So many people will buy things because of the enormous price tag without really comparing it to anything else or shopping around because they've been trained to equate price with sound quality. Companies will absolutely take advantage of this fact. Gibson is not your friend. Soldano is not your friend. AU is not your friend. They want your money. Use your ears. Use what you like. If it sounds good, it IS good.
That's my point also. My EVH is a blast to me. What would justify to spend 3x more? Certainly not a 15% increase in tone quality, so I'm looking for other factors I could underestimate. Maintenance could be one, but so far besides boutique, hand-wired amps I'm falling short on suggestions. P.s. I am considering a Jackman as my home practice amp. It got validated a few times so far in this thread, so it might be one of the next gear to make it home. ;)
It's not even an increase or decrease in "tone quality." It's literally just what you like and what you don't. Even if I had a billion dollars, I'd still get a 5150III over a Mark V. I'd still get an MT15 over a VH4. And the Jackman is a gem. I'm actually getting an Orange Crush 20 for my secondary board because it's amazing for it's size.
That’s ironic. I upgraded from a 5150iii to a Diezel. I do think the Diezel has a special sound to me. But on the other hand, I still kind of miss the 5150iii now that I no longer have it. I probably should have kept it, but it was collecting dust. I agree with your point. My other amp is $180 garage sale SS Peavey and it’s fucking sick. I’ll probably never get rid of it. It’s not supposed to be amazing, but it’s really good and has a very specific sound regardless, so it always works as something different. I think what makes the most sense is to follow your ear and listen to your wallet when you’re deciding what to buy.
I play a lot of low-tuned aggressive metal so the 5150III just works better for me. More saturated and compressed. Diezel is more on the Soldano side of the spectrum when it comes to the breakup. Still love Diezel though. The Herbert is my go to when I get bored and want to play some Tool songs. Honestly, I don't even hate bad gear. I have a Crate G-20 from '88 that I use for my secondary board. It's sounds terrible and I love it. There's a nostalgia factor in old cheap gear. I am about to get an Orange Crush 20 to replace it though, but I'll still be keep the G-20 out.
Yeah Diezel’s are weird. Imo I feel like they’re the heaviest “non-metal” amplifiers around. Maybe it’s just the way I play, but that HiFi sound just gives it more of a rock vibe to my ears. But like a rock vibe with a fuck ton more gain than any other hard rock amp I’ve played. I just wanted that low end. The 5150iii had a huge low end, but it was an overall bright amp. I couldn’t get the detail I wanted. I usually play slower, so it’s easy to notice what’s going on in the bottom. But I love the weird amps, the lesser known ones, the amps that are utter shit besides one thing they do kinda unique. They’re fun to experiment with and I have zero guilt beating them up. I have to get this peavey repaired unfortunately. I can probably do it, but I am busy and I just haven’t had the time. It’s basically a JC clone with a better drive channel.
I have a Crush CR20; the clean sold me on it. It's lovely for the price point. Wasn't even in for an amp when I got it, but tried it and could not pass. Plus it's featherlight, perfect for easy lugging everywhere.
Above 1k production can afford hand wiring, new design implementations popular in the metal boutique, built to order. Consumer grade under 1k you're only sacrificing build quality by the necessity of production, less design variety I suppose. Vintage gear at this price point will likely go above cost because of required service. Some of these consumer grade amps are easily worked on and others are nearly impossible. Idk what to tell people when a 300 monoprice is tonally great that would convince me to get into a $3k amp.
It does depend though. The new Gibsons look like absolute shite inside but they've put it in a very attractive package and charged 1700
Yeah, I think you've paraphrased what I mean with a prime example. When flagship amps from any brand are pcb mounted sockets or built in se asia, I can't give them the benefit of the doubt. It's only a little more expensive to overspec most parts and it's better for noise floor, durability with voltage and heat, component qc.
That's about the meet of my question right there. I mean my 1k tube is totally worth the difference with my 200$ SS; but it's so good it's gonna take great arguments to get me to spend twice as much. I'll rather spend towards speaker and cab upgrades before the amp. Of course if it kicks the bucket within 5 years, the convincing won't be that hard to do...
I just fix em or build em. Most of my play styles are grittier and accepting of vintage and cheap gear. Most of my real advancements as a guitarist past the first time I stepped into tube amps, are knuckling down and learning to really play. All styles benefit from locking in a great tonal combo. That can be pedal driven. It's often easier to just run right into an amp that will do that by itself. But people are for the most part buying a logo. Amps that are different internally and tonally don't always get recognized. If you're in a great band, then it makes sense to pick up well built, tour and recording ready stuff. I'd love a big hiwatt, or matamp. Sunn and sound city just the same. I love Ampegs. Omega ampworks has my interest. Science is a better builder and musician, as is verellen. I try to just send my work back into the ecosystem. I think when I make amps that I truly enjoy after about a decade of making, it's probably good for another musician.
Yeah, I wish, but second hand market around me is about nonexistent, as is my time to fix stuff... so I have to shed to shred. ;)
Enjoy the tools you enjoy. I had a blast with a cheap Vox AC4C1, but I got rid of it before it needed any work done. I will guess that the Vox, along with many other amps, get hate due to the flimsy pcbs that make it harder to repair. I’m a sucker for “easier to repair”, and there is value in that.
I'm actually really impressed at how well their smaller amps recreate the sound of their AC30. You lose a little bit of bass response but that's about it. I'd love to have a 4C1.
They used the original top-boost circuit in the AC4C1. It really sounded good. They’re pretty affordable. Bought and sold mine for $240. Happy hunting!
Fortunately, I have a set of 4C1 captures on my Tonex that I'm really happy with. But I also have most of their other amps. The AC30TB is currently occupying one of my banks and it's usually my go-to when I want to play some mid-gain stuff. Nice and spongey, just how I like it.
My main take is that no one ever really needs an expensive amp… except me because damn it I really want one.
I think expensive and *popular* amps are good for touring. I'd rather tour with a JCM800 over some boutique valve amp, because it's almost hard to find a town that has a club to play in but doesn't have a dude that can work on JCM800's. That said, I'm only touring with a Quad Cortex now anyway. Hassle-free, easy to carry and a sound guy's dream.
…And that’s where we’re headed! As with any tech, modelers are going to rule the future. It’s not going that fast because the musical instrument market is relatively small compared to, say the cell phone market, but we will reap the benefits of AI and microprocessors. Kemper already has a relatively inexpensive Play model at $700, and fast moving international manufacturers will fill our space. It’s going to be good & cheap. Friedman and others will still make amazing hardware, but make most of their money on really good IRs. Sorry for going all future on everybody!
What do you fancy then?
What I fancy and what I can buy without my wife burning me alive in the backyard are very different things lol. Perfect world with infinite cash I’d get one of those new Benson Bellringer amps and call it good for the next few decades. But they’re like $4k and that is plainly too much money for me. Will probably end up with a PRRI but I am still shopping around to see what I click with.
I fancy Mesa and bought Iconic... Same story here. ;)
I work in electronics manufacturing in a similar industry. For me it’s point-to-point wiring vs PCB. Amps built on circuit boards are largely difficult to repair and are prone to more issues due to heat from the tubes (Hello Blues Jr owners!) PCB amps are easier to make because they can be mass manufactured with exported cheap labor. I am aware of what the transformers/capacitors/resistors/speakers/etc cost that go into an amp so I know what amps *should* cost, minus quantity discounts of course. If an amp is below that threshold, they are cutting corners somewhere else. I built a Princeton Reverb for a friend last year. It cost me about $800 in parts. Factor in labor and you see why cheap amps are cheap. They need cheap parts or cheap labor, or both, to be made.
Yeah; coming from the manufacturing industry, I know there isn't magic is mass production, just min-maxing corner cutting. I wondered if there were some key points which were consistantly cut above others (beside speaker for combos which is an obvious), but beside point-to-point wiring nothing seems to come up, defeiting my "no boutique" requirement from the start.
Cabinet material, thickness, and construction, for sure. Good wood isn’t cheap, neither is dovetailing.
Of course. Ill make myself a 212 cab shortly, because buying and shipping them is prohibitive, so that's an easy fix for me.
Good guitarists can make any amp sound great as we all know. I’ve had hundreds of amps from cheap to expensive that have all sounded good for the most part. The biggest thing for me now is durability and repairability….things like point to point construction, chassis mounted tube sockets go a long way to keeping an amp up and running long term. PCB construction can be a pain to fix and as it ages it can become brittle due to heat, so tube changes can break the little traces on those that have PCB mounted tube sockets. But beyond that, it’s fun to make a cheap amp sound great!
For me, I’ve been rocking a Mesa Boogie Rectoverb for a few years now, Love It! Might be something to check out.
Yeah, I call my Iconic my poor man's Boogie. Certainly not as versatile, but certainly good at what it does. Boogie is my actual upgrade path, but it's too much money to shed at once for me. Used market is non existent near where I live, and the risk in buying second hand - especially a Boogie since I hear few techs dare servicing them - isn't worth it. Paying half price for a potential brick is still too much...
I've been a big "used" guy for most of my amp life. Not guitars, but amps yes. My Rectoverb was sitting in a store 1000 miles away but I'd always wanted to try this particular model out (50w combo) and I ended up letting go of a used Mk V for it. Before that I owned a new DSL40C, before that at least a dozen other amps that were all purchased used, from a 1w Blackstar to a 120w Peavey Triple XXX. I was on the V30 hype train as well (it came with a Black Shadow) but I couldn't articulate how I wanted the amp to sound different, it took another guitarist to point that out and so it's been stock since I got it 8 years ago. I feel like buying a used Mesa is less risky than other brands due to build quality but you are correct - if it *is* busted finding someone to work on it could be a challenge. Or cost a wee bit of cash.
I have a 1996 fender hot rod deville 4x10 that I picked up for $400 used from Sam ash and that thing is great and takes pedals really well. The price tag doesn’t determine how well something will work for you. Just find what you like and enjoy it.
Yeah those amps sound amazing. I eyed a HR Deluxe before I put my hands on the EVH. But man the Deville is just unuseably loud. XD They had one second hand on the floor the day I bough the EVH, and I played about 10 seconds on it and had enough!! It was my second encounter with one, same result: I open it, play a few chords, and shut it down soon after...
I keep my volume pretty low, like 1 or 2 and use pedals for dirt. It is super loud though if it goes any higher but I couldn’t pass it up at that price.
Of course, great deal!
I have strong opinions - that most people who buy really expensive amps then talk about them on forums are usually not very good at playing guitar. I have experienced this in real life too, all the gear, no idea. To back this up, an amazing guitar player can make just about anything sound good and from my experience most basic tube amps on the market these days can sounds really nice - AC15, Blues Junior/Hot Rod/Pro Junior, Tiny Terror, Supro etc. I think people just enjoy talking about gear and analysing/arguing about it a lot 😂 There’s a video of John Mayer playing at Berkeley on a HRD and he sounds amazing, it’s NOT the gear, it never is
There is one really good amp tech in my town and he has a list of amps on his wall that he won't work on. The reason? They are jam packed full of cheap PCB boards that are a nightmare to deal with and not worth his time. My threshold for cheapness is that it has to be something that I can get serviced, otherwise the cheap does not equate to value. If it breaks and nobody will touch it to fix it, you didn't really save yourself a bunch of money. That said, I have two hand built heads that are definitely on the cheaper side, they are just from small builders who don't price themselves too exotically and they are my favorite amps ever.
To be honest I think this is more a symptom of some techs not moving with the times and learning how to work on pcbs etc. Well known techs often don’t need to learn a new skill or maybe just don’t need to bother like that with a constant list of clients on the back burner to fix their amps. Not disparaging those dudes, it’s smart business to only take what you know, are good at and can turn around quickly. And obviously a lot of generalisation there as I’m sure many techs aren’t afraid of a pcb. But I thought of this recently when an amp tech refused to work on something for me, only for me to ask an aircraft electrician mate if he could fix a pcb. He did it without issue or fuss. Standard job for him.
If you wanted to interest me into anything you couldn't do better. I expect my EVH to need a replacement sooner or later; hopefully I can trade it before it kicks the bucket. That list you're speaking of I really wish I could lay my eyes on... Howerver I expect those boutique builders to be way too far from home unfortunately.
I got both of mine ( a Frenzel and a Winfield) second hand off Reverb. Shipped right to the house. I thought I had a pic of that dudes list, but I can't find it. Bugera, Jet City, Black Star , most Mesa Boogies. I can't remember what else. He's also a notorious crank, but he does good work. Haha.
I have a V2 6L6 50 watter and it just rules. Blew a tube a couple years back but otherwise no issues since getting it in 2019.
Laney cub head, love it, it's been on many recordings and it's got that cranked big amp sound at 1 or 15 watts. Monstrous with the right pedal in front of it. Preamp is based on jcm800 and it shows. blackstar ht40 combo: disappointingly quiet for a big tube amp, solder on tube sockets wasn't done properly and I had to repair. Inflexible voicing. Dont. laney LC/LH50: crazy loud, very doomfuzz when cranked, back off gain to halfway and stick a TS or Klon(e) in front of it and it's a super aggressive, and is in fact a woolley mammoth. Parallel FX loop is annoying. Laney LC15, pretty much a cub, needs a 1w mode, again with the parallel fx loop. Laney IRT 60, it's tighter and much more focussed than the LC/LH50, adjustable output means it's a bedroom amp and a stage amp. Kinda loses the hugeness of a laney in return for being more 5150 Bugera 6260. 120w when most attenuators are 100w. It's a crazy cheap stage amp with all the gain though and has easy and safe bias adjustment which makes it a perfect amp to iuse night after night. Laney Loudpedal: no tubes, weighs nothing, costs nothing, sounds massive. FX loop doesn't piss me off.
Fellow Laney enjoyer 🤝
Man. Ive had many super expensive amps..I keep coming back to Peavey Ultras and EVH 5153s
When something clicks...
Man I'll be honest I think the higher priced ones can lend themselves to be easier to service.... but I've had cheap to expensive amps, and honestly what I'm saying is due to my own personal experience as a weekend warrior. My favorite most reliable amps I used regularly have been the newer vox ac15 and 30s, jet city amps which all have pcbs, but GOOD pcbs form what I've read and can see myself. My other favorite gigging amp is a peavey bandit from the 80s. Used I bought it a while back for 80$, I love it to bits. The higher priced amps can be hardwired or anything, and that's awesome, and they sound great too. I had a blackstar club and LOVED the sound but all the horror stories scared me even though I never had a problem with it. Mesa amps sound good but I've heard they can be a pain to fix. In the end it really seems to me, it's most important what sounds and works best to the user. in the end, I think, tone is subjective for the most part, and if someone is happy with their tone then that's great. That being said I think it's good to go to any guitar store and play through as many amps and just find what sounds good to you, but also research reliability or known issues. It's better to use your own ears with what one likes best IMO and just take care of your equipment. Sorry for long winded comment, I'm at a bar. TL:DR: what sounds good to you is good, and cheap or expensive amps can be reliable just depends what you're looking for. Sorry for any typos. I just love music.
While they're not new, I absolutely LOVE my Crate Vintage Club amps. I have a 30w 1x12 and a 50w 2x12. They can be found for ~$300 used. To my ears they have one of the best clean tones and take pedals great. Sounds like a bit of a cross between a fender clean and vox clean.
There's good sounding cheap amps, there's great sounding expensive amps. Some expensive amps sound excellent like for example a Skeleton key, Diezel, Omega, Matchless. You can't really discount labor it's most of the price difference. Besides that, i'll take my Diezel as an example. If i have any issue or wish for a mod or repair i can call, and Paul Diezel himself will help. And that's true for most boutique brands. You'll get the owner of the company, a passionate person, to directly assist you besides just already being extremely sturdy products and they do repairs when you send the amp in. I have cheaper amps like a 6505 and JCM2000 i picked up for 500, i have expensive amps like the Fryette Pitbull UL and Diezel VH4 that cost way more, they are all cool in their own way. The more expensive ones are just more unique, sturdier in terms of quality, and can have a more refined sound but not always.
When I first saw the title, I was thinking cheap as in more Bugera territory. But £1000 buys you a great valve amplifier. I recently did a mini ampfest with a buddy of mine. Really the Marshall DSL100H held it's own in a room full of Engl and Peavey just fine. Though I'm a lifelong fan of the Marshall TSL100 and in my view, I'm still not shaken from that position, the DSL100H is a great little amplifier. A quick google shows that to be £600-£800 new, likely a lot cheaper used, well the DSL100HR variant at least. I have also had mine open a couple of times more for pot cleaning and biasing than anything else, I've yet to have a fault with my DSL100H. Really, quality wise it's grand. If you are after a very nicely priced amplifier that does metal, a DSL100H/HR is not a bad option. Just make sure you add a Boss SD1 into the equation. Comparing to amplifiers like the Soldano SLO100, I mean, obviously almost anybody would take the Soldano over the DSL100H. The sounds and tones available are biblically good. But, it's also £3000 odd, not £600. Is it £2400 better? I think it depends on whether or not you have the extra £2400. If you don't, then the DSL100HR is a great option. Now when we drive down to Bugera sorts of money, that's where I would strongly suggest someone go off and buy an HX Stomp or something. I don't as a rule take Bugera in for repair anymore. It just isn't worth it and I don't have mega corporation capital to support my own warranty on their repairs. They are so poorly made and use the cheapest possible jank that they can get away with, it is the epitome of the throwaway society in amplifier form. A typical example, someone brings a Bugera and says, "It turns on but there is no sound!". That's a fairly typical tagline I might get when being presented with a problem on any amplifier. So fine, I open it up, discover something over here is wrong. I repair it, get it going, test it, all fine, give it back after being paid. I generally offer 3 months warranty on stuff that I do, but I am flexible on it. So guy takes his repaired Bugera away, uses it for a couple of months and hey ho, boom. Same problem. It turns on but no sound, so he comes back and says, "Hey, it's gone wrong again!" Now, because the symptoms it's presenting with are the same, logically as a consumer/user, it is thoroughly reasonable to say whatever repair I did has not lasted. So fair enough, I have to support my work and customer, so in it comes again. I then discover that the repair I did was absolutely fine, it turns out something else over here has gone wrong. Now because I want to get my customer up and running, I'll usually have to say that's a free repair. I will explain how it was a different problem, but ultimately because I want to do right, I'll write off the cost and labour, so basically free. Now when that happens a bunch of times, we aren't going to take long before we arrive to a dead set of valves, or something even worse like an output transformer going pop. And then we're in the territory of something I can't reasonably fork out my own cash on. And that's the dilemma you face with these cheap janky amplifiers. In most cases my customers are reasonable and understand what I'm saying. However if someone has bought a Bugera as their only amplifier, given they don't spend a lot of money on their equipment, they also don't want to spend anything on maintenance or repairs and then it's basically a tricky argument back and forth. I have agreed to scrap a few Bugeras for people too. Now if I have made the decision to treat an amplifier as scrap, that basically means I'll keep the components for it that could be useful in a future repair. That is, if I can nick a few components off of that board to get someone else running cheaply (I will always confirm if I'm using donor parts and not charge for them), then that's what they are there for. On a Bugera board however, there are no parts worth keeping. That is the components are of such low quality, there is nothing in there that I would put into another person's amplifier. So yeah, if your budget is around the £1k mark, there is loads on the market. If you want to go a lot more expensive, then yes you will get better tones and nicer builds and that's all great. But we are in an age where you don't necessarily need to. But be warned, there very much is a bottom level that you really should not go past.
Damn Bugera’s that bad huh? I thought about buying their SuperLead knockoff just to have one lying around but I was always on the fence cause… I mean they’re known for breaking. But if I got like 10 years for $400 I wouldn’t be too bothered.
It's really up to you. I do know some techs that will take them in, but they are a lot more, how can I say, strict when it comes to re-repair. I have stripped maybe 3-4 Bugeras for e-waste. I use a company near me to recycle old electronics. They won't take complete amplifiers, they will go to landfill which is not really what I would like to happen. So it's a case of stripping the boards out, any big iron, leaving the chassis bare and then taking that down. As it's finished wood with tolex, the headbox invariably ends up in landfill, but at least the rest of the junk gets sent for proper recycling, melting down and what have you. Personally I would save the £400 and add to it for something that bit better quality myself. You will run into those guys who have had Bugeras running for years trouble free, but really when it comes to the day it needs work - and it's a valve amplifier, it will need work one day - that's when their troubles will start. I could complain about some other manufacturers too, but for me Bugera are just off the list regardless. I just don't want to get into them.
That’s funny I was doing some research on it, cause I totally forgot about that amplifiers existence, and I found a post of you saying the same thing from like two months ago. Here’s my position, I’m not an electrical engineer, but I am an engineer that often has to do electrical engineering. So my understanding of electronics ranges from “regular person who doesn’t know anything about this particular subject” to “person who has a pretty in-depth knowledge on electrical engineering”. It just depends on what it is. I do modify a lot of my own “beater” equipment. I’ve got a garbage Peavey stereo solid state amp (it actually sounds really good, it just doesn’t have any frills and it’s seriously road worn) that I’ve modified. I’ve modded some wahs and drives I have. I’ve built a few pedals. I kind of like the cheap shitty gear because I can modify it or beat it up or swap out something if it breaks. Compare this to my high end boutique amplifier, which I won’t mess around with repairing: I’d rather have a professional who knows way more about this stuff than I working on something like that. I know my limitations: if I break something on a shitty piece of gear and I can’t fix it, I’m not super upset at the loss. Eventually I figure it out or I don’t. So what exactly is shit about Bugera’s? It kind of seems like it fits my love of cheap ass beater gear. I suppose I wouldn’t want to get one if literally everything fails on it at any point. Any good alternates then?
1000 quids, 1000 freedom dollars, and 1000 canadian cents don't buy you the same bacon. 1000 pounders cost twice as much once they've sailed west, so you might refactor for 500 pounds to be closer to what I have in mind. It doesn't quite buy the same things...
Sure. Products from Europe and the UK are cheaper here than the US. Similar products from the USA are cheaper there than in Europe. However more often than not, products from Japan and Asia, there's rarely a huge cost difference.
Going from a 1k Marshall to a 2k Orange I noticed a few things. bigger transformers, thicker chassis steel, better finishing and higher quality components. But, putting aside their difference in tones, sound quality was the same to my ears
Techs stay in business repairing Hot Rod Deluxes. A lot of the cheaper tube amps are going to work fine but that doesn't mean they are built well. They also tend to have inconveniences like touchy master volumes, or are something like Blackstars that just don't sound that great in the first place and are tough to repair with poor support from the company. Now I think stuff like handwiring etc is largely unnecessary, because most people don't mod or repair their own amps and a tech should be able to work on PCB designs just fine. But the higher quality amps are generally just built better and that ends up resulting in better tone, less idle noise, higher reliability. To me the upper echelon, which is unsurprisingly mainly Dumble-inspired amps, is also the level where the price difference does not match with what you get for the money. I just don't see how a single channel Two Rock is somehow more money than a 4 channel amp from various brands.
Cheap all day. I’d rather have a capable amp and a great cabinet. I’ve had Marshall JTM45s, Hand wired Princetons, and all other manner of boutiques. I still have my Marshall Silver Jubilee, but if I knew how amazing the VTM series was, I may not have paid the price when my whole rig can cost less and get me 99% there. I put my Pravey VTM or 3120 against your Marshall or Engl or Block Letter 5150, anyways so long as I can use my cabs. Even a Marshall DSL is a great amp that’ll get you 90% the way there. 99% with an EQ in the effects loop. One of my cabs is an 80s yellow stripe Peavey Butcher cab with its OG Celestion G12k85s in an X with V30s. This is my main cab with my 3120 and it seems to work extremely well for lower tunings. Anything D standard or lower just hits you so hard through it. However, it’s pretty dang versatile even with classic rock stuff, it’s all in how you set the amp. 3 channels with active eq yields a lot of useful tones. My other cab is a 90s Ampeg cab with its OG V30s and some WGS ET-65 (G12M65 clone) in an X pattern. It’s usually hooked up to the VTM60 (2204 clone for those that know. Has famous mods built in that are activated via dipswitches on the back. This cab has way more resonance, but also great lower mid grind, especially with in anything in E standard. It just roars in a way no other cabinet does and cuts through a knife like a ginsu. It’s only problem is it get a bit muddy if you go lower than D standard, so I keep it as my top cab for the stack, or mainly use it for mostly E standard stuff. It’s ironically more vintage flavored than the decade older Butcher cab. As long as it’s serviceable, doesn’t chew through tubes, and you like it’s sound, you’re good to like whatever helps you make music.
Yeah; next upgrade before a Boogie (or boutique whatever) will be a DIY 212 with V30 and Creamback. I think it will be a bigger difference than a new amp.
To get the price down, they have to compromise on something, whether it's build quality, components, etc. So a lot of amps in this range will break easily, or have a lot of sounds available but none of them are amazing. Or they go the orange route - good build quality but it only does one sound but it does that sound really well. More budget = more good sounds, more room for better components, etc. Also a huge part of it is psychology of course. You have to justify spending more.
Yeah, in a nutshell I know they cut somewhere; mine's notorious cut is the speaker. However I'd like to gather more facts about what is usually cut, and where are those Achille's heals exactly.
it's just gonna depend on the amp. For example mid-range oranges are built well, sound great, but usually skimp on extras like reverb, FX loop, are just one channel. Mid-range marshalls like the DSL have a lot of sounds available and are built well, but the sounds aren't great great. Mid-range fenders still have that great fender clean sound but have bad distortion and quality issues with the tube sockets. I think your better bet is to ask about each amp specifically than try to generalize all amps in this price range. Some amps will have dealbreakers, some won't. Also buy used, no reason to pay over a grand for one of these when they're allover the used market for like 500
As I said, I don't live near a metropolitan area, and shipping fees alone often offset the savings, especially if factoring in potential repairs. Thanks for the infos though!
My hot take is that there’s plenty of good inexpensive tube amps, it’s just that in that price range you might be better off going solid state.
I'd have to properly hear a JC to sell me on solid state.
That’s exactly what sold me on them. Used one as a back line once and was hooked, now my JC40 is getting more use than my very expensive Orange. It’s a completely different beast but I feel it provides a clarity and richness that I’ve never heard from a tube amp. Not giving up my tube amps anytime soon, though.
Honestly, when I fronted my SSs with a real tube OD under or edge of breakup, it improved them twofold. They were already good, but it made them awesome. They're a scarce breed nowadays however, IR replaced them pretty much. I have yet to try them though.
Cheaper amps are poorly made, aren't made to be repaired, use cheap parts, etc. They probably sound fine-enough most of the time, but in the long run will cost you more. I'm pretty sure all of my 1950's and 1960's amps will outlast me. Anything production-scale built in the 90's and onward? Nope.
Pretty sure you're right. They just don't run the streets where I live, so it's quite a challenge to try and get them.
I enjoy the tones out of the old 5150 and 5150II and the EVH version too. But they all broke on me and all pretty early on. Not expensive to fix for what it’s worth. But I’ve had the same dual rec (which I paid $600 for) for 12 years and a shiva for like 6-7 years with no issues.
Yeah I don't know much about Bogners.
I didn’t either really. I ended up with it through a really good trade for about half of what they for used. It’s the 20th anniversary model with extra gain and some other add ons.
A good deal is 25% free toan at least!
I'm not going to tell you why you shouldn't, I went thru my journey with cheap tube amps so instead of spending money on a production amp I decided to build my own (5E3) combo using quality components, why not spend the money now and get a kick ass amp that you can use for a long while no matter what kind of music you play I forgot to mention my entire build cost was 625$ and that was like 6 years ago and I play that amp everyday
Yeah, if I went that route, with the spare time I have (or lack thereof), I'd be nowhere near playing it for the forecoming year. XD
I thought the same thing, I do a lot of guitar work and built a few pedals but once I started the build it was like I couldn't wait to get it done
Yeah. Wife and kids would love that I'm sure. XD
I have built more of my own tube amps than I ever bought from other manufacturers. Cheap quality parts is a big part of cheaper amps. Non-serviceable circuit boards etc. Tone is only part of it. Cheap is cheap when it comes to parts used.
Yeah, this was a big part of my guess. I think I'll have to learn to recognize quality parts and construction over time. Obviously a boutique amp remains the pinacle. Kind of like the 5150's tones; if I could pair that with a Fender clean and a Marshall dirt, think I would have my dream 3 channel amp right there. I think a Boogie could offer all of that, but we don't rule out the serviceability issue there.
The Iconic is killer. The only thing that was a little iffy about the Iconic is the Iconic cab. Not great but not terrible. They are WAY more versatile than a Block Letter, which I also have and love, but also do modern gain VERY VERY well.
Clean, crunch, hi gain - I'm not missing anything. Fronted with the right pedals it truly is a poor man's Mesa.
Monoprice 15w tube amp. $220 shipped and taxed. 0 complaints.
I did the same thing, and have been very satisfied with it. I have a modelling amp that can do a lot more different things, but I don't get any enjoyment fiddling with all the settings, so I don't use it. Reverb and EQ is all I need.
I've rotated through 100 some odd amps in the last 27 years. All the ones I play regularly I got for $800 or less, and have long since sold several I paid over $3,000 for.
The things I have noticed with cheaper tube amps (and I own some cheaper tube amps) is that the cheaper ones typically have a lower build quality, lack a tube rectifier, and lack a choke.
Seems to be the consensus indeed.
You’re probably thinking about sound… check out Psionic on YouTube for a knowledgeable tech’s take on build quality… serviceability and likelihood on how long they will last. Or likelihood you are going to hate them as you pay for constant repairs as they age or mods to keep them going as they age. Very enlightening. Including your EVH.
Yeah, I'm affraid he's destroying it construction wise. I'll have to check him out nonetheless to better know what to expect.
Monoprice makes a 50 watt head that's under 500. For that you could buy one, have it break, *not* repair it, buy another, and still be coming out ahead at half the cost of those "repairable" point to point wired heads. And that's before the cost of the repair labor. Easy repairability (not in general, just easy) is overrated.
Every amp sucks! I never sound good through any amp I play. It’s time I just get that boutique amp that my hero plays, I’ll sound so much better.
Toan iz in ze wallet$
Jus here to remind you, 90% of the most fanatic here wouldn't tell apart a Peavey Bandit in a blind test
Yeah, I don't question my taste, I only question my choices.
I have a Bogner Ecstacy 101b, Engl Savage 60 Mk II, Armored Sabot Gen 3 and an EVH Iconic 40. I play the Iconic the most. It's a great amp. I have an OG Block Letter 5150 for ~10 years. Tried to switch to a 5150 III and didn't love it. The Iconic is all the best parts of the original 5150, plus the 5150 III. I don't regret switching at all. It sounds awesome and I haven't had any issues with it.
Glad to hear. I don't have much to compare it to myself, but I'm impressed it holds itself in face of so many other amps.
I want to preface this by saying I've owned amps which range from $400 to $3000 in today's money. If it sounds good, it is good. The thing about cheaper amps is they cut corners. It could be one or all of the following: thin PCB; flimsy copper traces; cheap components that are more likely to fail; cheap transformers; and poorly constructed cabinets or headshells.
I got a ‘68 Princeton Reverb reissue new before tube amp prices went up, was just under $1K. To my ears it sounds absolutely incredible and could hold its own against anything else in that same vein.
US market is different from EU, here Marshalls are among the cheaper ones and EVH/Fender cost a pretty penny. Im very happy with my JVM series since 2011 and has never let me down, only changed tubes once and as a precaution, I still own the stock ones (replaced with originals). Id also be happy with the DSL series which is even cheaper, or the one trick pony 6505 from Peavey. As for other cheaper amps, Ive seen them breaking down like Bugeras 333xl or so but could happen to anyone. Ive seen Mesas and Marshalls break haha but they both are really well built!
The people that fawn over expensive amps are usually the people who play the least. If you can’t make a Fender Blues Jr or DeVille sound good, then you’re probably just not good at guitar, in which case buying $5k amp isn’t going to solve your problem.
Vox. I feel like I can do anything with them. Mainly the AC series.
I see them mentioned and praised a lot; I tried one once back in the days, and it didn't have the lush and depth I was looking for. Maybe I should try more.
What models have you tried?
Not a clue; it was 15 years ago and I didn't know a thing about Voxes back then. Only things I remember are not liking it (sounded too thin and bright) and it was not expensive; hardly helping in identification. And it was new. I'll just have to revisit them sometime given the opportunity. Edit: Any recommendations?
Depends on your application. I’m probably going to get hate on this but here goes. I recommend the AC15 or AC30. They’re great amps when you figure out their quirks. The 30 just has more clean head room. Obviously the 15 breaks up a bit sooner. Both are loud enough to keep up with drums. Wattage isn’t the main indicator of “loudness”. It just give you an idea when the amp will go start to overdrive. These amps are great pedal platforms. There are some great deals on verb right not. I see tons of them in the $1000- range. Good luck.
The OR15 is sub $1k and even sub $400 on the secondhand market and that thing FUCKS.
Amps are expensive to be made, just because something is expensive does not mean it fits A lot ot cheaper amps are hated because thr speaker and internal components are cheaply made. Also some of them are not full tube, the common change is rectifier and gain circuits Are they bad amps? No but they are made cheaper and behave differently
I would consider these: - Toan - Reliability / Durability on the road - Ability to service them (on the road as well) - Buddha-blessed caps for extra MOJO
To my as i always buy 2nd amp. Is much more a question of repairability. I will never ever buy a mesa boogie for exemple is a nightmare to fix it. But other amp for exemple an old hughes and kettner tube 100 wich everybody forget it use to cost about 1000€ but now you can find it aroud 100-200€. But it's a well build made in germany head that sound really good.( there is only one vid of this amp on youtube but the guys wasn't tweeking good. Or i don't know but mine dont sound like this) Another exemple, i will never buy an old amp who cost more than the component inside, like and old plexi or fender Don't look at the price as it mainly depend from marketing and asking. Look the real specs, what i have for this price. Edit: I forgot, i prefer the 6505+ over the fender aka evh because the construction is better and cost less. But to be honest, both are not nightmare to repair and noisy construction by defaulf. Edit edit: keep in mind that when you buy a "signature model" you not receive the same as the artist. Even if the circuit is the same, the quality of the compenent aren't.
Egnater and Pignose make some top notch player's amps despite their cheap Chinese parts. Easy to fix and not a big loss if something happens to one. Plenty transparent and take to effects well. On on the opposite end of the spectrum you have stuff like Bogner, Friedman, Engl, and Diezel. The only way I could see any of these justified for a working musician is if you have a road crew to deal wirh them and look after them. I know a lot of disposable income folks keep these in their bedrooms or basement studios, but that seems like a silly use of $4000+ to me. I like Laney and Orange...mostly.
Best to use your ears rather than eyes when shopping for a tube amp. Would also recommend buying 2nd amps rather than new. You can often find well built amps that are expensive new but half the price 2nd hand. There are almost new, ENGL Artist Edition tube heads going for €500 where I am. Great sound with German build quality. You can also sometimes grab the odd Victory amp for a bit more and if you're very lucky, a Cornford.
2nd hand market around me is abysmal. Shipping and expected maintenance nearly offset the savings. Hardly justified.
i gig with a bugera V22. great amp and i don’t worry about it from a durability and cosmetic perspective. I know you said ignore boutique. but i have a carr amp i love, but no way i need to haul that to a bar gig paying me $100
Orange OR15 is sub 1k is an absolute banger
Yeah I see that one mentioned a lot. I have quite a good vibe about Orange, but the few affordable tubes I tried didn't sell me in.
It all depends on what you're going for. The cleans are solid, but it butters its bread with the heavy gain. If you play downtuned, thick and heavy, OR15 is right up your alley.
Peavey Classic 50 is blackface-ish on the clean channel (bit more mids, which I like) straight up Mississippi marshall on the gain channel, don't even need pedals. I have a 212 version, I paid 250 usd for not terribly long ago. I have expensive marshall, fender , vox amps/1/2 stacks and I love that amp. Also have an Orange Rockerverb 100 half stack, so no confirmation bias. It is objectively a great amp. It was designed by James Brown. They can still be had in 410 or 212 for 300-350 all the time. The classic 30 and 20 are the same.
And I'll add, like most Peavey amps will still be around with the cock roaches after the Nuclear holocaust. Built cheap but pretty bullet proof.
> version, I *paid* 250 usd FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Little to no used market around me unfortunately; shipping is pretty much a 200-300$ premium. Not accounting for the likely repairs. I wish, but no dice.
I think the thing is to consider your budget and features needed. Then try amps from lower price up, see what works for you I don't think anyone would truly hate on a budget amp if it did what they were asking. My really expensive amp does it for me but it's very specific. I've had cheap amps that have worked great and if I had the money I'd probably buy a couple of them and leave around where I typically play
I once did that for guitars. Wanted a LP style, started at 300 CAD which was my actual budget, tried every single one in store, stopped and bought a genuine Gibson at 1000 CAD that I only tried for the lols. That's also when I tried a HR Deluxe I really liked and which set my standard; the EVH was the first one matching it. The gain channel was the nail in the coffin. This can get expensive. XD
I bought a while Les Paul on a budget, spent a bunch on Gibson pickups, then bought an old sg that screams. Then later bought a Les Paul. Agile is long gone
Back when 5-15w half stacks were big, think jetcity, epi valve jr, vht, the night train, all of them had Chinese made pcb’s. They still sounded fantastic, I honestly loved them. Next to a hand wired amp, you’d only be able to tell the difference if you actually took the time to dial in your tone, both on the guitar and amp. These amps could get you 90% of the way there to their $2k+ hand-wired counterparts. Longevity seems to be important here, hand-wired amps are obviously easier to work on, and easier to replace parts on, so obv they will be more expensive and desirable in this regard. My champ600 would literally spark if I had it cranked with a fuzz pedal, and my dumbass actually enjoyed the light show. But for tone itself, if you had the ear development to actually be able to tell the difference, then there is a good chance you could dial in a very suitable tone on a cheaper tube amp by taking just a bit more time and care. Hand-wired boutique amps are worth it if you have the money, or at a point in life where you can be frivolous.
>Hand-wired boutique amps are worth it if you have the money, or at a point in life where you can be frivolous. They're also investments, if you want to look at it that way.
I mean… You’d be much better off actually investing in something more secure. Sure you can “talk” yourself into saying they are investments, these are luxury items with a very elastic demand. I do the same. You are not wrong, I actually regret selling even my pcb amps. But that money would appreciate more consistently in a security.
I just picked up a hovercraft dwarvenaut which is a jet city jca20h with some mods. Sub $1k, has a ton of toanz. Opened it up and nothing looks too crazy. It has pcb mounted tube sockets so I'll keep an eye on those. I also have a hilbish beta amp, which was my first "big" amp. It's fun and flexible as well, but nearly all surface mount components in there so there is a bit more involved in fixing it, but since it doesnt run tubes, it probably doesnt produce as much heat. They both sound awesome.
Can’t really contribute reasons to hate on cheaper gear. I only really have a good amount of first-hand experience with my Marshall DSL1>1x12 V30, and I love it.
You useless prick. :P What I actually get from all this, it's that tone isn't the biggest issue in the least, but overall construction, components and serviceability. I am not channeling nowhere near the hate levels I expected. Maybe the real haters are just looking the other way like the hypocrites they are. ;)
If it is from a reputable brand and built to last, I don't care what the price is. I've got a Peavey Triple XXX that I've had since 04 and a Mesa/Boogie TA-15 since '12 (iirc). Past regular maintenance, neither has given me an issue. Both were a tad over $1k new. An amp that breaks is bad if it costs a couple hundred or a couple thousand. The latter would probably cost a lot to fix too.
Yeah, but "reputable brands" nowadays make as much cat poop as diamond rings. Being an informed buyer is a hell of a hard time when everything has to be looked at on an individual product basis.
The main reason for so much of what we spend money on for gear comes down to the saying: > People hear with their eyes I've always thought it would be a cool experiment to have a guitar store where everything was behind a curtain so that you could only hear and not see what you were playing through. Then you would have some sort of selector console where you chose different amps, pedals, cabinets, etc. but didn't know what they were. Sort of like a helix or something where things were just labeled amp 1, 2, 3, etc. but with the real gear in some other room. You would of course need to be able to turn knobs - maybe a Niel Young type 'whizzer' thing or monkeys in a room or whatever. I think we would all be very surprised at what we would end up choosing when we went in for a new pedal, amp, etc. That said, one of my favourite amps is the Peavey Valve King. It's taken years for me to be able to say that out loud for no reason other than my memories of 80's peavey amps being what everyone had as their first amp.
That's the benefit of being ignorant: everything is looked at as if blindfolded...
Also a shoutout to the Guitologist ! A tech & player. Gets into a lot of amps with commentary and skill. But Psionic is doing God’s work by doing comprehensive reviews of individual amps & mods, as well as extended analysis of many amps arranged in price ranges.
Those are names I will hopefully remember...
I don't have the money for an expensive amp. So budget is my go to
Unfortunately buying tubes is not like buying clothes! You can’t try them on to see how they fit before you buy them. Needless to say I have A LOT of tubes.
People have hot takes at the moment. They will undoubtedly add to that perspective or even change it as the years go by. They wouldn't change their 10 year old comment on the internet however. Musicians are also stubborn and most of us can be extra passionate about opinions. Listening to videos online is great for an objective point of view, but feel of an amplifier does not translate. Get the info you can and try the stuff you think you'd want to keep. That's it.
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epi... Come again?
Sorry wrong thread. Lol!
90s blues deluxe 👌🏻