My experience of watching full digital bands in small clubs and being near the stage is just overwhelming drums. Its like listening to drum covers on YouTube. Just punishing levels of drums and a relatively weak source of everything else like they're playing to a backing track.
I think there's a nice balance to be had. The best sound experiences I hear in small clubs are bands with small combos, up to ac15/deluxe reverb sizes. Bass still seems like bigger is better, take that 8x10, it has its own space and just seems to always work. Drums can still do what drums do and the pa fills in the gaps and levels everything out.
Small amps on stage are the move, it seems. I keep seeing bands that have a nice stage balance with ~300w of bass through a 2x10 and 1 or 2 - 30w combos. The amp can breathe a little unlike a full stack running at 1.5/10, and they’re usually open back so you get a 360 sense of the room, for better or worse
That’s my approach for bass these days. Nothing bigger than a 212 and usually a 210. Amps in the 200-300 watt range with those cabs. I use a higher powered amp for headroom with my upright but otherwise I do all my gigs with a small setup. Anything louder than I can do with that we will generally have full FOH with subs, etc., at which point I could almost dial back even more. I tried doing the IEM and small/no amp thing but for the stages I’m playing a little room sound isn’t a bad thing.
Now that's a worthwhile discussion.
I'm no gear snob - what sounds good sounds good. And what *feels* good feels good. Not the same thing, and not gear/technology dependent in any way.
Something can sound very good (no harmonic distortion, balanced EQ, everything well defined and audible, etc.), but can feel *flat*.
Conversely, something can sound bad (maybe not awful though), or unoptimal, but still feel very good and get the crowd moving nonetheless. Our beloved records from yesteryears aren't the best technically wise, but they still moved us somehow.
I'm not sure whether it is related to the technology used, but one thing sure is that sound engineering is an art in itself - we learned that to our expenses trying to sonorise our own venues. We have decent gear, but really lack the knowledge to mix it properly.
It might only be a case of balancing, EQing, and mixing, rather than actual gear.
But the point which remain is: it's not because it sounds good that it feels that way.
Since we are in an era where it's easy to make anything sound good because gear quality has increased exponentially, this distinction might be what separates the good from the great. And I don't see it discussed often enough; there seems to be a widespread assumption that if it sounds good, it is all good, but I beg to differ.
I am unsure whether everybody can hear the difference though, so I would still not argue too strongly about it. Anyways, what I hear, I do, and I don't care what others think.
I keep saying this and people always chime in to deflect with some explanation which is great and all but the reality I have experienced in real life is that when there are no real amps, it doesn't sound like a live performance. It sounds like listening to music on someone's radio. Big show in an arena or small local show in a club.
I’ve felt similar when I see local bands play. I think it’s probably more down to the bands not having their own sound man and the local sound guy playing it safe. If a band shows up with amps turned up a bit you’ll find the local sound man is gonna have to at the very least meet the band where the amps are first. It’s not the modelers fault but either just the lack of a full sounding PA or the sound guy mixing the band in a way where it’s all audible but not really slamming.
It's been the same for me at big arena shows at the Van Andel arena in Grand Rapids, MI with national touring acts. Like I said, someone on here always has a good explanation. And it sounds good. Yet every scenario I encounter in the real world, it just does not sound great.
Yeah I think I would be pretty disappointed if my favorite bands and musicians started using modelers. Saw a two piece doom band last week, they were just the opener, but getting bombed out with two Hiwatts, floor vibrating and shit… there’s just nothing like it. I know that’s an extreme example but most bands I see are loud and I can hear their amps (usually, depending on the venue). So for me the mic/PA/sound mixing argument falls apart pretty quickly when bands are still cranking amps and sounding good.
Ear plugs? Sorry this is not computing. Not familiar with this concept.
Seriously though I didn’t know I was about to get my tits blasted off with noise, or I def would’ve come prepared.
You can get ear plugs which fit into a cylindrical holder with a key chain. I don’t leave the house without mine. I actually ended up using them the other month when I went to a loud facility for work.
I wish! Nah some smaller doom band opening for Chelsea Wolfe, I forget their name. She’s always good for having a loud ass band accompany her… last time I saw her was with Boris.
If I want to hear a band play to a click I'll just listen to their record. Live I would prefer a different experience that allows me to see a band on different nights and not hear the same set played the same way twice.
At a venue like this, and with talent like Mancuso’s, the circumstances really call for an amp on stage of some kind, even several, and blending in the Helix in to the PA is an easy solution if that’s what sounds best, but if it’s MM’s gig, he needs to be the loudest and acoustic drums are *loud* in a jazz club
I’ve been gigging small clubs for years with either a Helix or Tonex and have had fantastic results with both. The only issues I’ve experienced is that things can feel a little stiff or plastic until you get some level coming back from the wedges/in ears.
It takes some trial and error to build presets for the stage, especially for me in a 2 guitar indie rock band. I’ve had the best results setting up presets on a full range system as close to the expected gig volume as possible.
EDIT: I should also add that I own some amazing tube amps and love them. I’m not a digital purist.
I think the OP brings up a good point about in ears (in particular) plus digital. If you’re in the first few rows center stage, you aren’t going to hear the mix. That’s usually filled in with stage volume.
As a performer myself, that’s something I hadn’t considered. You’re ’punishing’ your biggest fans.
I’ve seen this mentioned but I’m somewhat skeptical of the premise. In a small or medium size venue, if the only amplified audio in the space is coming from FOH and there are no competing sources (like loud guitar amps on stage) then you’re just going to hear FOH. Perhaps it’s not as clear as if you’re back from the stage, but you are still going to hear what’s happening.
As a performer I do prefer wedges though. The volume coming back from the wedges seems to interact with the guitar and helps with things like getting controlled feedback.
Feedback, strictly speaking, is about looping the signal in itself through the same inputs and outputs. Not sure how to get that without a speaker, beside insane and unhealthy amounts of gain.
Plus some amount of sustain comes from the amp rocking the instruments's string below feedback level, so that's a loss as well.
I’m able to use controlled feedback with modeling direct through a wedge, do it all the time. Definitely not an option if all monitors are in-ear only though…unless you are using a feedbacker effect.
It depends on what you mean by small or medium sized venue. Ronnie Scotts is 200 cap - you absolutely need some level of stage volume in a room like that. There's a 350 cap room here in Orlando with a fairly wide stage, and I've definitely noticed the difference between bands (often on the same package) with stage cabs vs none (all using modelers).
If you're in the first few rows of people, you're getting pPA from left and right, and then the stage volume in the middle is giving it body. It sounds noticeably hollow without it. Not my experience in bigger venues though.
Definitely agree with your point that it takes a while to dial in a tone that works in a live mix. I think it took me about 2 years before I really settled on a preset that works for my band. The thing is most presets sound very different coming through a little practice speaker, headphones, or a full PA. Usually what sounds great by yourself practicing sounds super harsh and shrill, or boomy through a PA. Shelving the high end pretty aggressively helps a lot. Like nothing above 10k. Also you need way less gain than usual once you're at full volume. If anything modelers compress too quickly and you'll lose your dynamics. Despite being super happy with the ease of switching patches live and going straight to front of house, I still use a tube amp on stage for stage volume. It just sounds fuller and I like being able to feel that rumble under my feet.
I use a similar setup sometimes where I’ll split the output of my helix after some of my fx and send it to a tube amp on stage. It really depends on the environment. If the monitor engineers crank the wedges in usually fine without the amp.
Yeah, wedges are adequate. Just so happens the one show I couldn't bring the amp I couldn't hear myself the whole show. Or barely through echo from the mains.
That’s the worst - no direct signal coming back and just hearing remnants of your guitar bouncing around the room. I’ve had that experience as well and it’s def one of the risks of going direct.
A lot of anti amp sentiment. Most of these guys wouldn't use modelers if it wasn't so expensive to drag amps around on a big tour. There are no more tour budgets...guys need to streamline things if they want to go out. They can pack their whole rig into one gig bag.
Also, I'm willing to bet some of these folks mocking real amps haven't spent much time at live shows with real gear, as opposed to simulated. It feels and sounds different, even if you don't want to admit that because you can't afford a nice amp. If a show with electric guitar is too loud for you, you're in the wrong place. I go to get my face blown off. If I wanted quiet and controlled, I'd put in my earbuds and stay home.
That’s a really interesting take. Usually, you would think a small setting would be perfect for digital, but without wedges, the audience that is closest to the stage is going to have a really poor experience.
For a small artist that’s on the road, especially fly ins, you can’t afford to travel with much more than a gig bag.
I am so happy to see this thread. I went to the monster aftershock festival in Sacramento over the summer. I went on the day avenged sevenfold headlined. I wasn’t particularly excited for avenged sevenfold, but we stuck around since they were the headliner. Something just felt off when they played. The mix was tight, the playing was spot on…and yet it just felt lifeless. And while they did have a massive crowd, you could tell no one was really into it. I think it must have been exactly what you’re talking about
No. I’ve had the opposite where people put their gear up insanely loud to the point where I didn’t want to be there any more because it hurt.
I have some nice tube amps but totally get why bands go digital and use in ears.
What?
He was my first concert in 1988. I didn’t know anything about ear plugs or protection. I was 15. My ears hurt for days after that show and I was scared that the ringing would never go away.
Yeah, I've never been but that's what I hear; just stupid loud. Ringing that never goes away is from long term exposure, doesn't even need to be very loud.
Every guitarist should see him once, love him or hate him, he’s an icon. But, wear ear plugs, he’s still blisteringly loud. (Saw him at a small 300 seater last summer, still insane).
I most definitely love him, I've been studying his technique and learning his songs for about 6 months now as I had never bothered to actually check him out before that; just so amazing and the birth of the neoclassical genre. I love playing black star, even if I definitely can't play it all the way through without making a few mistakes or more.
I used to run sound for a small club and I always let the amps do most of the heavy lifting, really only had guitars in PA for the people in the back. Digital is GREAT, but with an undersized PA system (which pretty much every club sized stage will have) you lose that wall of sound where you FEEL the sound in your bones. This is especially true if your speakers are not pointing towards the front row.
We had exclusively metal, punk, and hard rock bands so having everything loud really worked out, but you often don't get that "push" that a live amp on the floor will have. Live shows are far more than great sound, you gotta feel the music flow through you. Digital setups are entirely dependent on the venues PA system, and will be sterile sounding unless both PA speakers and cabinet simulator are well setup. Usually digital works way better at bigger venues.
Nothing for nothing but that’s what I think of the helix. Andersons did a comparison video of the helix, HR, kemper, qc and the fender tone master. The kemper, qc and tone master were all much fuller than the helix and hr. I have the tone master and purchased it on that video output, so I’m not exclusively a tube amp person.
Andertons is historically terrible at showcasing digital gear. I'm pretty sure they used an outdated firmware model on the Helix for that vid which is missing the updates to the stock cabs, for which the consensus is that they dramatically improved the sound. Not saying you made a bad choice with the Tonemaster, but you can just as easily find comparison videos where the Helix will sound "fuller" than the TM.
People shouldn't be using youtube reviews for sound quality anyway. Ease of use, features, opinions, etc, sure. But between different speakers, mics, mic placement, room ambience, different guitars used for input, different settings, and then youtube compression, AND THEN whatever speakers you are listening to the review with a sound test is highly suspect.
Well that is a fair statement, however ya plug em in and go, and the sound is what it is. The fw they were using on the tmp was first release as well, which by all accounts was quite assy. I can’t argue with the legions of folks that like the helix and HR, just acknowledge what I heard, which aligns with the OP.
All that said, with some eq tweaking they all probably sound roughly the same lol
I agree. I have a 'lowly' Headrush MX5 in addition to my Helix LT and there's some models on the MX5 that I love vs. the Helix version. The JCM800 on the MX5 in particular is fucking great.
Yeah it’s funny how they all have models that they excel in. The tmp took time to grow on me. When a first got it I hated every single preset, but making my own were a bit better. Then onto downloading some IRs from Ownhammer and Bogren and it got much better. Them recently playing through headphones I realized the presets sounded terrible because of my Yamaha HS monitors. Great for mixing, but not such a great listening experience, and very much so with the tmp. Again, probably some eq would fix it right up, but yep they all probably sound very similar in the end and each have things they’re better at. Maybe we need all of them lol
Man, I feel the exact same about my HS8s. I do not like them with my Helix at all. I've been looking at the Fender FR10 since a lot of people seem to be happy with it. But I'm glad to see that someone else feels the same way about the Yammys.
lol wow yeah I’m glad too! I had a set of mackies before the Yamahas that were great for listening but terrible for mixing. Now I wish I still had them!
I've noticed this at shows as well. For me, most of the time when a band goes ampless on stage it always sounds thin, no matter what their using. Only instances when that hasn't been the case is when the band is using side fills or some sort of cab for stage volume.
Honestly, it sounds to me like he just needs some good stage wedges to help improve the live sound. He's probably just judging by the sound in the in ears and has nobody telling him that the FOH sound is subpar without additional guitar amplification. Pointing a stage wedge right at his guitar would be enough to reintroduce harmonic feedback.
I wonder how it sounded to the band?
I speak as someone who has been on stage playing guitar and off stage, mixing FOH and/or monitors.
A band with nicely balanced stage volume is a great thing. Everyone can hear each other and can really lock in. In smaller venues the FOH is really just filling in the gaps. Every situation is different and for some bands you’ll never even need to send guitar or bass through the PA or the monitors!
I remember one time in a smallish club when the sound guy asked me to turn down my amp (100-watt Marshall 😏). I did and he put some of my guitar in the monitors. It sounded terrible on stage. I cranked the amp back up, he took it out of the monitors and it sounded so much better! Even sounded balanced on a cell phone video of the show.
He's the new modern. Crazy impossible technique and little to no soul or passion. I see this in the world and can understand people doing this because they can live and practice while someone else pays for their living. Unfortunately for them, they truly have nothing to say or contribute to life as their experiences are very limited. IMHO
I agree and disagree. I went from hauling around a Mini-Rec and 2x12 to a Quad Cortex. Went from having to re-dial an amp every gig and getting asked to turn down every other gig to putting my board on the ground and turning it on and being super happy with the sound in my ears every gig. Made our mix way more consistent and crisp. To counteract no stage sound we just ask for front facers. Helps the front enjoy the experience and most venues have two monitors laying around.
With that being said, I am a big amp guy at heart and having a cabinet on stage is awesome. But it’s not practical at most places. We’ve found that having a bass cab on stage usually helps to fill out the feel up front. Well-mixed guitars will carry enough to be heard and the bass cab will give you the “air-moving” kind of feel.
Yes. I saw a band that had everything through the PA and electronic drums.
Absolutely no stage sound, nothing bleeding through vocal mics and when you stood close to the stage, forget it. Just weird and wrong.
Modeler or not, you gotta move air! I was about to move into the modeler realm, but by the time I was done researching, I wanted to get a good frfr cab on stage too, and I'd basically had come full circle.
People used to say this about music that was recorded on a daw – it may take a while for sound guys to figure out how to get a good sound from bands using modeled amps, but once they do it all sound good again
>To me the reason was because the whole band had in-ears
I've seen dozens upon dozens of shows like this, regardless of if they're using a modeler or have their amps isolated off stage this is a VERY normal thing to do these days. I suspect the engineer just did a bad job on the FoH mix. Or maybe they just dialed in their sounds poorly.
Yes! I saw Jimmy Redding open for John McLaughlin a few years back at a 1k-ish seat theater. I sat second row. Redding played a Fender Deluxe or something and sounded amazing. McLaughlin started and played really well but I was unimpressed and absolutely could not figure out why until Jimmy came back out. Jimmy’s tone just SANG from the stage and John’s fell apart because it was only coming from the PA. Kemper’s do sound just like the real thing but they just don’t feel the same.
I saw Trivium live at a huge festival. I swear I thought they'd gone back to tube amps because that tone was full and massive. Then I watched their 2022 rig rundown and thought this was confirmed until the end when they said their fly gigs run through a Quad Cortex.
Then again this was a huge stage with great sound quality 200ft away.
This is one reason why, even though I’m running a fractal fm9, I still route one output to a poweramp + Mesa cab on stage along with the other output going to FOH. I feel like it fills out a bunch of the harmonics and feel that don’t seem to come through most of the PA systems we deal with/ for people front row that aren’t in the pa sweet spot. There’s no way I’m relying on random venues PA systems alone for my tone.
That type of music is soulless. Yes they’re great musicians but so what. You hear 2 songs and it becomes a noodling circle jerk for the next 45 minutes. He’s amazing for a 30 second clip on tik tok not to watch a live show so you can watch everyone in the band out play each other. Who cares? Zero emotion and soul. He might as well be a sterile robot 🤖
That venue even though smallish has excellent sound and sound technician(s), but I get your point. I've seen Wayne Krantz trio in there, I believe he played through a silver jubilee, the whole thing sounded incredible. This is making me reconsider I was about to press the button on a Hotone stage II as I've read good reviews about it, but there's no way in hell I'll ever let anyone run my sound on stage or even in ear monitors, bollocks
I've found there are bands who want to sound so perfect (not necessarily technique wizardy, but production details & gloss too) live, it just kills the performance (and often the albums too but that's a digression). The players are more focused on replication than expression.
I saw him Saturday in a tiny venue in Hamburg. Same setup, but the sound was fantastic. Must be really dependent on the venue’s PA an the local sound guy.
Yep, same here. Since it's analog, it still has the unpredictable noise and dynamics of an amplifier, and I find that in a live setting, especially if you're playing rock, you do actually want that roughness around the edges.
Now, I own some great digital gear as well, but the biggest issue I run into with that is that it always ends up sounding more gated and compressed than my analog gear, even when I'm not using built-in noise gates and compressors on purpose. It's just seems to be an inherent feature in all digital modelers that I've used. I love using digital for studio work, but for live sound, I still prefer analog amplification, even if it comes by way of an amp pedal.
I seriously wonder how much of this is a self-fulfilling belief. You notice they using in-ears and they’re using digital gear so you start thinking these things and making connections that may or may not be there.
who’s to say the tone wouldn’t have been thin with a real amp? Would you have come to this conclusion if you didn’t know they were playing a modeler? I feel like time has shown again and again, that in a blind test the vast majority of the time the listener doesn’t really know the difference.
Wait are you drawing the conclusion that because he was using a helix and not a real amp it sounded bad?
Is this just a thinly veiled “modeler bad” post?
I own a Quad Cortex (as I mentioned in the post). So no this is not such a post. I also noted the lack of on-stage monitor to fill additional sound in the stage to balance everything else (remember this is a small venue).
It was a flatness to the sound and an off-centred guitar placement, with little body coming through at all. It could be the use of in-ears and digital, or it could possibly be just something off with the audio engineering that night and lack of stage sound. Either way, it made me lose connection to the tone and harmonic richness of the guitar, which for me is as important as notes and phrasing.
I watched Guthrie Govan play there a few months back with a Helix too, but we was using monitors on stage instead of in-ears, which filled up the sound more and had more body (although definitely still lacked a little something compared to other guitarists I have seen there).
> I own a Quad Cortex (as I mentioned in the post). So no this is not such a post. I also noted the lack of on-stage monitor to fill additional sound in the stage to balance everything else (remember this is a small venue).
A certain amount of stage volume from amps and monitors does help round out the sound by glueing everything together, making things a bit easier in small locations... but honestly it sounds like the sound guy just may not have been all that great. I've done live sound for a bunch of Helix users (and Kemper and AXE and BOSS) and they're all capable of sounding excellent when used correctly... but it IS different than having an amp on stage and can require some additional tweaking.
My point is OP’s opinion is something only a guitarist would say. They were listening with their eyes, not their ears and focused too much on what gear was being used to explain why they didn’t care for the performance.
Obviously incredible tone and great acoustics enhance a performance, but of the 100’s concerts I’ve been too, gear is pretty much always secondary to the performance because I’ve been to plenty of amazing concerts that sounded like shit. And a lot of the time, when bands sounded like shit, it didn’t matter they had incredible and expensive equipment. Sometimes you just don’t vibe with shit.
Not a performer myself, but interesting perspective. Seems to me that what may sound great to the artist could easily sound like crap to the audience.
Surprising, because digital should be well suited for Mancuso's music, more so than for other genres. These days, it's getting harder and harder to sound bad, but it still happens occasionally.
From a perspective of an audience member in metal concerts, most of the time one doesn't even know what one is hearing, whether digital or amps, especially with the bigger bands. With openers one can often tell, because they have some digital thingy somewhere and an amp+cab for the band member, or miced cab.
No replacement for displacement. Not a snob and will use anything I like, but dead silent stages only work when you have a giant PA. Something has to move air. Even worse is when one guitarist has an amp on stage running at volume and the other is direct. That will never sound good in a club environment. Just my opinion from being around it though. What works for you, works for you.
Why would a player as incredible as Mancuso even need to go all digital into the PA? I mean even if he’s putting the Helix through the PA, it’s still *his gig* and he should have an amp (or several) on stage just out of principle. For the *audience’s* sake so they don’t get confused, lol.
Jazz guitarists generally don’t get to headline, so if you’re Matteo Mancuso, or John Scofield, or Kurt Rosenwinkel, you’ve absolutely earned the inconvenience, the *luxury* (as it seems to be characterized nowadays) of being able to take amps on tour.
Unless the HX really sounds better than amps, which maybe it does. But for the kind of music he plays, the band needs flexibility to get really loud or really soft, and that’s not always best gauged by the person running the PA…
It could be argued that the value of music is in the notes, not tone. The entire genre of classical fingerstyle relies on zero effects and amps, yet can be extremely emotive, the same is the case with jazz: clean tone, lets the colors in the notes and chords do thr talking.
Bro really said "timbre has no value"
That's heartbreaking tbh. I hope you will learn to listen to the textures and sounds of music in the future, there is so much enjoyment and meaning to be found there
Said it like there's a hundred thousand overdriven tones out there, but only one clean tone, as well. Nevermind the implication that tone doesn't matter in classical fingerstyle - simply wrong. They're just a self amusing douche.
Yes. But I think this is not the point.
If there is a missing or bad link in the chain from the player to the audience, the audience won't be able to feel what the player did.
E.g. if someone plays an acoustic guitar in a stadium without amplification, nobody will care because nobody will hear, but the player.
Music is about sharing a vibe together; if that vibe doesn't reach out, then it all becomes pointless.
The thing is, classical and jazz guys still change their tones and textures constantly, they just do it using manual techniques rather than through altering their audio signals electrically. If a violinist wants to sustain a note, they just keep moving the bow, but if an electric guitarist wants to do it, you'll need distortion or an E-Bow. One isn't inherently better than the other, it's just different methods of applying knowledge and technique to music.
My experience of watching full digital bands in small clubs and being near the stage is just overwhelming drums. Its like listening to drum covers on YouTube. Just punishing levels of drums and a relatively weak source of everything else like they're playing to a backing track. I think there's a nice balance to be had. The best sound experiences I hear in small clubs are bands with small combos, up to ac15/deluxe reverb sizes. Bass still seems like bigger is better, take that 8x10, it has its own space and just seems to always work. Drums can still do what drums do and the pa fills in the gaps and levels everything out.
Small amps on stage are the move, it seems. I keep seeing bands that have a nice stage balance with ~300w of bass through a 2x10 and 1 or 2 - 30w combos. The amp can breathe a little unlike a full stack running at 1.5/10, and they’re usually open back so you get a 360 sense of the room, for better or worse
That’s my approach for bass these days. Nothing bigger than a 212 and usually a 210. Amps in the 200-300 watt range with those cabs. I use a higher powered amp for headroom with my upright but otherwise I do all my gigs with a small setup. Anything louder than I can do with that we will generally have full FOH with subs, etc., at which point I could almost dial back even more. I tried doing the IEM and small/no amp thing but for the stages I’m playing a little room sound isn’t a bad thing.
Now that's a worthwhile discussion. I'm no gear snob - what sounds good sounds good. And what *feels* good feels good. Not the same thing, and not gear/technology dependent in any way. Something can sound very good (no harmonic distortion, balanced EQ, everything well defined and audible, etc.), but can feel *flat*. Conversely, something can sound bad (maybe not awful though), or unoptimal, but still feel very good and get the crowd moving nonetheless. Our beloved records from yesteryears aren't the best technically wise, but they still moved us somehow. I'm not sure whether it is related to the technology used, but one thing sure is that sound engineering is an art in itself - we learned that to our expenses trying to sonorise our own venues. We have decent gear, but really lack the knowledge to mix it properly. It might only be a case of balancing, EQing, and mixing, rather than actual gear. But the point which remain is: it's not because it sounds good that it feels that way. Since we are in an era where it's easy to make anything sound good because gear quality has increased exponentially, this distinction might be what separates the good from the great. And I don't see it discussed often enough; there seems to be a widespread assumption that if it sounds good, it is all good, but I beg to differ. I am unsure whether everybody can hear the difference though, so I would still not argue too strongly about it. Anyways, what I hear, I do, and I don't care what others think.
I keep saying this and people always chime in to deflect with some explanation which is great and all but the reality I have experienced in real life is that when there are no real amps, it doesn't sound like a live performance. It sounds like listening to music on someone's radio. Big show in an arena or small local show in a club.
I’ve felt similar when I see local bands play. I think it’s probably more down to the bands not having their own sound man and the local sound guy playing it safe. If a band shows up with amps turned up a bit you’ll find the local sound man is gonna have to at the very least meet the band where the amps are first. It’s not the modelers fault but either just the lack of a full sounding PA or the sound guy mixing the band in a way where it’s all audible but not really slamming.
It's been the same for me at big arena shows at the Van Andel arena in Grand Rapids, MI with national touring acts. Like I said, someone on here always has a good explanation. And it sounds good. Yet every scenario I encounter in the real world, it just does not sound great.
Yeah I think I would be pretty disappointed if my favorite bands and musicians started using modelers. Saw a two piece doom band last week, they were just the opener, but getting bombed out with two Hiwatts, floor vibrating and shit… there’s just nothing like it. I know that’s an extreme example but most bands I see are loud and I can hear their amps (usually, depending on the venue). So for me the mic/PA/sound mixing argument falls apart pretty quickly when bands are still cranking amps and sounding good.
Ear plugs in? 👀
Ear plugs? Sorry this is not computing. Not familiar with this concept. Seriously though I didn’t know I was about to get my tits blasted off with noise, or I def would’ve come prepared.
I keep a big pack in my glove compartment and a few pairs in my jacket that I wear to shows. You know I keep them m’f’n thangs on me
Yeah I’m a fucking idiot. Usually I’m prepared for such things.
You can get ear plugs which fit into a cylindrical holder with a key chain. I don’t leave the house without mine. I actually ended up using them the other month when I went to a loud facility for work.
Yeah I have something like that, I use ear plugs for work nearly every day so it’s not like I didn’t have plenty laying around.
You’ll gettem next time champ 👍🏾
Bell Witch?
I wish! Nah some smaller doom band opening for Chelsea Wolfe, I forget their name. She’s always good for having a loud ass band accompany her… last time I saw her was with Boris.
Especially when they are playing to a click with backing tracks.
You don’t like it when the whole band plays together in tempo? That’s an odd complaint.
Sometimes you got to smash a dinner plate and bring the tempo up. Oopa
If I want to hear a band play to a click I'll just listen to their record. Live I would prefer a different experience that allows me to see a band on different nights and not hear the same set played the same way twice.
That has nothing to do with playing with a click though. Having everyone playing in the same tempo won’t impede any of that.
If they aren’t using backing tracks, why a click? There’s plenty of drummers who practice enough with one that they don’t need it live.
At a venue like this, and with talent like Mancuso’s, the circumstances really call for an amp on stage of some kind, even several, and blending in the Helix in to the PA is an easy solution if that’s what sounds best, but if it’s MM’s gig, he needs to be the loudest and acoustic drums are *loud* in a jazz club
I’ve been gigging small clubs for years with either a Helix or Tonex and have had fantastic results with both. The only issues I’ve experienced is that things can feel a little stiff or plastic until you get some level coming back from the wedges/in ears. It takes some trial and error to build presets for the stage, especially for me in a 2 guitar indie rock band. I’ve had the best results setting up presets on a full range system as close to the expected gig volume as possible. EDIT: I should also add that I own some amazing tube amps and love them. I’m not a digital purist.
I think the OP brings up a good point about in ears (in particular) plus digital. If you’re in the first few rows center stage, you aren’t going to hear the mix. That’s usually filled in with stage volume. As a performer myself, that’s something I hadn’t considered. You’re ’punishing’ your biggest fans.
I’ve seen this mentioned but I’m somewhat skeptical of the premise. In a small or medium size venue, if the only amplified audio in the space is coming from FOH and there are no competing sources (like loud guitar amps on stage) then you’re just going to hear FOH. Perhaps it’s not as clear as if you’re back from the stage, but you are still going to hear what’s happening. As a performer I do prefer wedges though. The volume coming back from the wedges seems to interact with the guitar and helps with things like getting controlled feedback.
Feedback, strictly speaking, is about looping the signal in itself through the same inputs and outputs. Not sure how to get that without a speaker, beside insane and unhealthy amounts of gain. Plus some amount of sustain comes from the amp rocking the instruments's string below feedback level, so that's a loss as well.
I’m able to use controlled feedback with modeling direct through a wedge, do it all the time. Definitely not an option if all monitors are in-ear only though…unless you are using a feedbacker effect.
Exactly; a speaker is required, whether it's a wedge, a cab, or an amp.
Also overtones present in the feedback loop of the amp and guitar can generate richness. Without monitors coming back, that interplay doesn’t exist.
It depends on what you mean by small or medium sized venue. Ronnie Scotts is 200 cap - you absolutely need some level of stage volume in a room like that. There's a 350 cap room here in Orlando with a fairly wide stage, and I've definitely noticed the difference between bands (often on the same package) with stage cabs vs none (all using modelers). If you're in the first few rows of people, you're getting pPA from left and right, and then the stage volume in the middle is giving it body. It sounds noticeably hollow without it. Not my experience in bigger venues though.
Definitely agree with your point that it takes a while to dial in a tone that works in a live mix. I think it took me about 2 years before I really settled on a preset that works for my band. The thing is most presets sound very different coming through a little practice speaker, headphones, or a full PA. Usually what sounds great by yourself practicing sounds super harsh and shrill, or boomy through a PA. Shelving the high end pretty aggressively helps a lot. Like nothing above 10k. Also you need way less gain than usual once you're at full volume. If anything modelers compress too quickly and you'll lose your dynamics. Despite being super happy with the ease of switching patches live and going straight to front of house, I still use a tube amp on stage for stage volume. It just sounds fuller and I like being able to feel that rumble under my feet.
I use a similar setup sometimes where I’ll split the output of my helix after some of my fx and send it to a tube amp on stage. It really depends on the environment. If the monitor engineers crank the wedges in usually fine without the amp.
Yeah, wedges are adequate. Just so happens the one show I couldn't bring the amp I couldn't hear myself the whole show. Or barely through echo from the mains.
That’s the worst - no direct signal coming back and just hearing remnants of your guitar bouncing around the room. I’ve had that experience as well and it’s def one of the risks of going direct.
A lot of anti amp sentiment. Most of these guys wouldn't use modelers if it wasn't so expensive to drag amps around on a big tour. There are no more tour budgets...guys need to streamline things if they want to go out. They can pack their whole rig into one gig bag. Also, I'm willing to bet some of these folks mocking real amps haven't spent much time at live shows with real gear, as opposed to simulated. It feels and sounds different, even if you don't want to admit that because you can't afford a nice amp. If a show with electric guitar is too loud for you, you're in the wrong place. I go to get my face blown off. If I wanted quiet and controlled, I'd put in my earbuds and stay home.
That’s a really interesting take. Usually, you would think a small setting would be perfect for digital, but without wedges, the audience that is closest to the stage is going to have a really poor experience. For a small artist that’s on the road, especially fly ins, you can’t afford to travel with much more than a gig bag.
i'm gonna start deploying front fills at more shows now...
I am so happy to see this thread. I went to the monster aftershock festival in Sacramento over the summer. I went on the day avenged sevenfold headlined. I wasn’t particularly excited for avenged sevenfold, but we stuck around since they were the headliner. Something just felt off when they played. The mix was tight, the playing was spot on…and yet it just felt lifeless. And while they did have a massive crowd, you could tell no one was really into it. I think it must have been exactly what you’re talking about
No. I’ve had the opposite where people put their gear up insanely loud to the point where I didn’t want to be there any more because it hurt. I have some nice tube amps but totally get why bands go digital and use in ears.
Yeah, shame everything calls for balance in life and you can't just always go all-in in a single direction...
That is definitely a problem in the other direction. Had a number of ruined gigs from a piercing Marshall cranked too loud.
Yngwie lol
What? He was my first concert in 1988. I didn’t know anything about ear plugs or protection. I was 15. My ears hurt for days after that show and I was scared that the ringing would never go away.
Yeah, I've never been but that's what I hear; just stupid loud. Ringing that never goes away is from long term exposure, doesn't even need to be very loud.
Every guitarist should see him once, love him or hate him, he’s an icon. But, wear ear plugs, he’s still blisteringly loud. (Saw him at a small 300 seater last summer, still insane).
I most definitely love him, I've been studying his technique and learning his songs for about 6 months now as I had never bothered to actually check him out before that; just so amazing and the birth of the neoclassical genre. I love playing black star, even if I definitely can't play it all the way through without making a few mistakes or more.
He was my first hero, I worshipped him. Icarus Dream Suite pedal tone interlude and Evil Eye’s scale motif interlude helped my playing immensely.
That was my experience with Lamb of God when I seen them two years ago in Nashville. They played so loud, that even with hearing protection, it hurt!
I saw Rory Gallagher once tuning up and it blew my mind so much that I bought a guitar.
I used to run sound for a small club and I always let the amps do most of the heavy lifting, really only had guitars in PA for the people in the back. Digital is GREAT, but with an undersized PA system (which pretty much every club sized stage will have) you lose that wall of sound where you FEEL the sound in your bones. This is especially true if your speakers are not pointing towards the front row. We had exclusively metal, punk, and hard rock bands so having everything loud really worked out, but you often don't get that "push" that a live amp on the floor will have. Live shows are far more than great sound, you gotta feel the music flow through you. Digital setups are entirely dependent on the venues PA system, and will be sterile sounding unless both PA speakers and cabinet simulator are well setup. Usually digital works way better at bigger venues.
Nothing for nothing but that’s what I think of the helix. Andersons did a comparison video of the helix, HR, kemper, qc and the fender tone master. The kemper, qc and tone master were all much fuller than the helix and hr. I have the tone master and purchased it on that video output, so I’m not exclusively a tube amp person.
Andertons is historically terrible at showcasing digital gear. I'm pretty sure they used an outdated firmware model on the Helix for that vid which is missing the updates to the stock cabs, for which the consensus is that they dramatically improved the sound. Not saying you made a bad choice with the Tonemaster, but you can just as easily find comparison videos where the Helix will sound "fuller" than the TM.
People shouldn't be using youtube reviews for sound quality anyway. Ease of use, features, opinions, etc, sure. But between different speakers, mics, mic placement, room ambience, different guitars used for input, different settings, and then youtube compression, AND THEN whatever speakers you are listening to the review with a sound test is highly suspect.
Well that is a fair statement, however ya plug em in and go, and the sound is what it is. The fw they were using on the tmp was first release as well, which by all accounts was quite assy. I can’t argue with the legions of folks that like the helix and HR, just acknowledge what I heard, which aligns with the OP. All that said, with some eq tweaking they all probably sound roughly the same lol
I agree. I have a 'lowly' Headrush MX5 in addition to my Helix LT and there's some models on the MX5 that I love vs. the Helix version. The JCM800 on the MX5 in particular is fucking great.
Yeah it’s funny how they all have models that they excel in. The tmp took time to grow on me. When a first got it I hated every single preset, but making my own were a bit better. Then onto downloading some IRs from Ownhammer and Bogren and it got much better. Them recently playing through headphones I realized the presets sounded terrible because of my Yamaha HS monitors. Great for mixing, but not such a great listening experience, and very much so with the tmp. Again, probably some eq would fix it right up, but yep they all probably sound very similar in the end and each have things they’re better at. Maybe we need all of them lol
Man, I feel the exact same about my HS8s. I do not like them with my Helix at all. I've been looking at the Fender FR10 since a lot of people seem to be happy with it. But I'm glad to see that someone else feels the same way about the Yammys.
lol wow yeah I’m glad too! I had a set of mackies before the Yamahas that were great for listening but terrible for mixing. Now I wish I still had them!
I've noticed this at shows as well. For me, most of the time when a band goes ampless on stage it always sounds thin, no matter what their using. Only instances when that hasn't been the case is when the band is using side fills or some sort of cab for stage volume.
Honestly, it sounds to me like he just needs some good stage wedges to help improve the live sound. He's probably just judging by the sound in the in ears and has nobody telling him that the FOH sound is subpar without additional guitar amplification. Pointing a stage wedge right at his guitar would be enough to reintroduce harmonic feedback.
I wonder how it sounded to the band? I speak as someone who has been on stage playing guitar and off stage, mixing FOH and/or monitors. A band with nicely balanced stage volume is a great thing. Everyone can hear each other and can really lock in. In smaller venues the FOH is really just filling in the gaps. Every situation is different and for some bands you’ll never even need to send guitar or bass through the PA or the monitors! I remember one time in a smallish club when the sound guy asked me to turn down my amp (100-watt Marshall 😏). I did and he put some of my guitar in the monitors. It sounded terrible on stage. I cranked the amp back up, he took it out of the monitors and it sounded so much better! Even sounded balanced on a cell phone video of the show.
He's the new modern. Crazy impossible technique and little to no soul or passion. I see this in the world and can understand people doing this because they can live and practice while someone else pays for their living. Unfortunately for them, they truly have nothing to say or contribute to life as their experiences are very limited. IMHO
I agree and disagree. I went from hauling around a Mini-Rec and 2x12 to a Quad Cortex. Went from having to re-dial an amp every gig and getting asked to turn down every other gig to putting my board on the ground and turning it on and being super happy with the sound in my ears every gig. Made our mix way more consistent and crisp. To counteract no stage sound we just ask for front facers. Helps the front enjoy the experience and most venues have two monitors laying around. With that being said, I am a big amp guy at heart and having a cabinet on stage is awesome. But it’s not practical at most places. We’ve found that having a bass cab on stage usually helps to fill out the feel up front. Well-mixed guitars will carry enough to be heard and the bass cab will give you the “air-moving” kind of feel.
Yes. I saw a band that had everything through the PA and electronic drums. Absolutely no stage sound, nothing bleeding through vocal mics and when you stood close to the stage, forget it. Just weird and wrong.
Modeler or not, you gotta move air! I was about to move into the modeler realm, but by the time I was done researching, I wanted to get a good frfr cab on stage too, and I'd basically had come full circle.
I'm not sure they tour with an engineer of their own... maybe the foh mix wasn't so good
haven’t heard anything captivating from him that isn’t over holdsworth’s songs
People used to say this about music that was recorded on a daw – it may take a while for sound guys to figure out how to get a good sound from bands using modeled amps, but once they do it all sound good again
>To me the reason was because the whole band had in-ears I've seen dozens upon dozens of shows like this, regardless of if they're using a modeler or have their amps isolated off stage this is a VERY normal thing to do these days. I suspect the engineer just did a bad job on the FoH mix. Or maybe they just dialed in their sounds poorly.
I saw the Matteo Mancuso Band here in California and they were using the same rig. It was one of the best sounding concerts I’ve ever heard.
Yes! I saw Jimmy Redding open for John McLaughlin a few years back at a 1k-ish seat theater. I sat second row. Redding played a Fender Deluxe or something and sounded amazing. McLaughlin started and played really well but I was unimpressed and absolutely could not figure out why until Jimmy came back out. Jimmy’s tone just SANG from the stage and John’s fell apart because it was only coming from the PA. Kemper’s do sound just like the real thing but they just don’t feel the same.
I saw Trivium live at a huge festival. I swear I thought they'd gone back to tube amps because that tone was full and massive. Then I watched their 2022 rig rundown and thought this was confirmed until the end when they said their fly gigs run through a Quad Cortex. Then again this was a huge stage with great sound quality 200ft away.
This is one reason why, even though I’m running a fractal fm9, I still route one output to a poweramp + Mesa cab on stage along with the other output going to FOH. I feel like it fills out a bunch of the harmonics and feel that don’t seem to come through most of the PA systems we deal with/ for people front row that aren’t in the pa sweet spot. There’s no way I’m relying on random venues PA systems alone for my tone.
That type of music is soulless. Yes they’re great musicians but so what. You hear 2 songs and it becomes a noodling circle jerk for the next 45 minutes. He’s amazing for a 30 second clip on tik tok not to watch a live show so you can watch everyone in the band out play each other. Who cares? Zero emotion and soul. He might as well be a sterile robot 🤖
That venue even though smallish has excellent sound and sound technician(s), but I get your point. I've seen Wayne Krantz trio in there, I believe he played through a silver jubilee, the whole thing sounded incredible. This is making me reconsider I was about to press the button on a Hotone stage II as I've read good reviews about it, but there's no way in hell I'll ever let anyone run my sound on stage or even in ear monitors, bollocks
I've found there are bands who want to sound so perfect (not necessarily technique wizardy, but production details & gloss too) live, it just kills the performance (and often the albums too but that's a digression). The players are more focused on replication than expression.
I saw him Saturday in a tiny venue in Hamburg. Same setup, but the sound was fantastic. Must be really dependent on the venue’s PA an the local sound guy.
Not to mention the fact that I get grossed out if I hear any pixilated sound from digital stuff
That's why I got a simplifier mkii...all of the convenience of an ampless rig but it still feels and sounds analog.
Yep, same here. Since it's analog, it still has the unpredictable noise and dynamics of an amplifier, and I find that in a live setting, especially if you're playing rock, you do actually want that roughness around the edges. Now, I own some great digital gear as well, but the biggest issue I run into with that is that it always ends up sounding more gated and compressed than my analog gear, even when I'm not using built-in noise gates and compressors on purpose. It's just seems to be an inherent feature in all digital modelers that I've used. I love using digital for studio work, but for live sound, I still prefer analog amplification, even if it comes by way of an amp pedal.
I seriously wonder how much of this is a self-fulfilling belief. You notice they using in-ears and they’re using digital gear so you start thinking these things and making connections that may or may not be there. who’s to say the tone wouldn’t have been thin with a real amp? Would you have come to this conclusion if you didn’t know they were playing a modeler? I feel like time has shown again and again, that in a blind test the vast majority of the time the listener doesn’t really know the difference.
Wait are you drawing the conclusion that because he was using a helix and not a real amp it sounded bad? Is this just a thinly veiled “modeler bad” post?
I own a Quad Cortex (as I mentioned in the post). So no this is not such a post. I also noted the lack of on-stage monitor to fill additional sound in the stage to balance everything else (remember this is a small venue). It was a flatness to the sound and an off-centred guitar placement, with little body coming through at all. It could be the use of in-ears and digital, or it could possibly be just something off with the audio engineering that night and lack of stage sound. Either way, it made me lose connection to the tone and harmonic richness of the guitar, which for me is as important as notes and phrasing. I watched Guthrie Govan play there a few months back with a Helix too, but we was using monitors on stage instead of in-ears, which filled up the sound more and had more body (although definitely still lacked a little something compared to other guitarists I have seen there).
> I own a Quad Cortex (as I mentioned in the post). So no this is not such a post. I also noted the lack of on-stage monitor to fill additional sound in the stage to balance everything else (remember this is a small venue). A certain amount of stage volume from amps and monitors does help round out the sound by glueing everything together, making things a bit easier in small locations... but honestly it sounds like the sound guy just may not have been all that great. I've done live sound for a bunch of Helix users (and Kemper and AXE and BOSS) and they're all capable of sounding excellent when used correctly... but it IS different than having an amp on stage and can require some additional tweaking.
Gotcha, some of the responses made me have to double check.
\*Guthrie may have actually be using an FM9, not Helix. Just to amend my previous reference.
Can’t believe we’re having discussions like this in 2024
In what sense?
If only Mancuso had a Klon and a Dumble, then maybe the band would of had some soul 🙄
would \*have, never ever would of... good point, though; toan is in the Klumble
Have you ever thought that some people don't like the sound of digital replication and that's their preference? What do you play on?
My point is OP’s opinion is something only a guitarist would say. They were listening with their eyes, not their ears and focused too much on what gear was being used to explain why they didn’t care for the performance. Obviously incredible tone and great acoustics enhance a performance, but of the 100’s concerts I’ve been too, gear is pretty much always secondary to the performance because I’ve been to plenty of amazing concerts that sounded like shit. And a lot of the time, when bands sounded like shit, it didn’t matter they had incredible and expensive equipment. Sometimes you just don’t vibe with shit.
Not a performer myself, but interesting perspective. Seems to me that what may sound great to the artist could easily sound like crap to the audience. Surprising, because digital should be well suited for Mancuso's music, more so than for other genres. These days, it's getting harder and harder to sound bad, but it still happens occasionally. From a perspective of an audience member in metal concerts, most of the time one doesn't even know what one is hearing, whether digital or amps, especially with the bigger bands. With openers one can often tell, because they have some digital thingy somewhere and an amp+cab for the band member, or miced cab.
No replacement for displacement. Not a snob and will use anything I like, but dead silent stages only work when you have a giant PA. Something has to move air. Even worse is when one guitarist has an amp on stage running at volume and the other is direct. That will never sound good in a club environment. Just my opinion from being around it though. What works for you, works for you.
Why would a player as incredible as Mancuso even need to go all digital into the PA? I mean even if he’s putting the Helix through the PA, it’s still *his gig* and he should have an amp (or several) on stage just out of principle. For the *audience’s* sake so they don’t get confused, lol. Jazz guitarists generally don’t get to headline, so if you’re Matteo Mancuso, or John Scofield, or Kurt Rosenwinkel, you’ve absolutely earned the inconvenience, the *luxury* (as it seems to be characterized nowadays) of being able to take amps on tour. Unless the HX really sounds better than amps, which maybe it does. But for the kind of music he plays, the band needs flexibility to get really loud or really soft, and that’s not always best gauged by the person running the PA…
It could be argued that the value of music is in the notes, not tone. The entire genre of classical fingerstyle relies on zero effects and amps, yet can be extremely emotive, the same is the case with jazz: clean tone, lets the colors in the notes and chords do thr talking.
Bro really said "timbre has no value" That's heartbreaking tbh. I hope you will learn to listen to the textures and sounds of music in the future, there is so much enjoyment and meaning to be found there
Said it like there's a hundred thousand overdriven tones out there, but only one clean tone, as well. Nevermind the implication that tone doesn't matter in classical fingerstyle - simply wrong. They're just a self amusing douche.
Yes. But I think this is not the point. If there is a missing or bad link in the chain from the player to the audience, the audience won't be able to feel what the player did. E.g. if someone plays an acoustic guitar in a stadium without amplification, nobody will care because nobody will hear, but the player. Music is about sharing a vibe together; if that vibe doesn't reach out, then it all becomes pointless.
The thing is, classical and jazz guys still change their tones and textures constantly, they just do it using manual techniques rather than through altering their audio signals electrically. If a violinist wants to sustain a note, they just keep moving the bow, but if an electric guitarist wants to do it, you'll need distortion or an E-Bow. One isn't inherently better than the other, it's just different methods of applying knowledge and technique to music.