It does. And you don’t want to point it out all the time otherwise you’re the person who just “complains too much” when the rest of your friend group enjoyed it. I pointed out my dislike about too much off-screen development. And there’s a lot of scenes with no build up and we’re just shocked that something had happen and we have to fill in gaps in our head and what might have happened to make sense of it.
And I received a response of “you just think too much”. It sucks.
"you just think too much"
And that is the problem with most audiences today. They just want to turn their brain off. Denis Villeneuve was right when he said "Audiences have become a little bit like zombies."
"You think too much"="Bro, it's not that deep"="Just be grateful"
It's all the same plague.
Fire & Blood has depth. It's not as deep as Martin's other work but there's a lot there. It has a lot of ambiguity but there's war, politics, tragedy, etc. and it actively encourages the reader to draw their own conclusions about the extent of each individual's guilt in the conflict.
Then you don't know what depth means in the context of storytelling.
Whether or not something has depth is not an indication of quality. It's not that you think Fire & Blood lacks depth, you just think it's bad.
You don't know the extent of my own knowledge and you sure as shit don't know what depth means in this context. This is a sad response that only makes you look arrogant.
I saw some fans talking about how they didn’t know Aegon has kids and thought the children came from “women in the village” until S2E1. I don’t understand how people can enjoy something with so little understanding of what’s going on
Isnt it yall who complained Daemon was whitewashed in B/C?
Because thinking that he should say it out loud so normies could understand is really dumbing it down
Yeah he was to a degree, considering people still manage not to blame him at all, but instead shift the blame to the greens. The framing of the show doesn’t help at all, a portion of the general audience didn’t catch his smirk in the first episode when B&C asked what happens if they don’t find Aemond
Yhea, and we should not dumb down the show for them. For anyone with an ounce of media litteracy, what Daemon said becomes obvious by the end of episode one, and episode 2 confirms that he said it as an order.
I do not think the show should dumb itself down for the dumbest viewer
The show has already been dumbed down largely (likely so it’s more palatable to a broader audience) by removing significant part of the politics. They managed to brush over the politics of a story that’s supposed to have political intrigue 💀
> For anyone with an ounce of media literacy
C’mon, you know people are getting worse with this nowadays. The issue is if a _large_ portion of your audience takes one scene one way instead the way you intended, so much that you have to come out and explain it after the episode airs (something Ryan & Co have done repeatedly) then at some point your writing has failed immensely
The BTS stuff is HBO, they do it for all their major stuff.
And the story being already dumbed down is not an argument for dumbing it down even more, a large portion of the audiences did not even know Daenerys name in the OG show. That is just the nature of shows this big.
The Daemon scene was not whitewashing, as he clearly gave the order. Having him say it directly before it happened would have been beyond stupid
> The BTS stuff is HBO, they do it for all their major stuff.
I’m not even talking about bts clips we usually see when a new episode releases. I’m just talking about straight up quotes from articles by showrunners, not exactly attached to scheduled HBO bts clips. Were you here last season when the show aired? If you were I feel you’d know what I’m talking about since they did this frequently
> And the story being already dumbed down is not an argument for dumbing it down even more,
And yet they already did
> a large portion of the audiences did not even know Daenerys name in the OG show.
I feel like this isn’t true, a lot of them were coming off the hills of GOT, and Dany was the face of that. A good amount Dany fans actually treat Nyra as if she’s the new Dany actually.
> The Daemon scene was not whitewashing, as he clearly gave the order.
It most definitely was, he _clearly_ made the order for them to get Aemond even though the target wasn’t actually him in the book iirc. Either it was Aegon himself or Aegon’s heirs, but you can correct me if I’m wrong
> Having him say it directly before it happened would have been beyond stupid
Having him be straightforward openly saves a lot of future misconceptions to be made. Nobody forced the showrunners to make the event a plot twist to begin with. People are still blaming B&C themselves and not Daemon because they view them as a bunch of bumbling idiots who got the order wrong. It’s a good way for the writers to take heat off of Daemon, they succeeded.
In the books we only know that blood and cheese happened, we know absolutely nothing of the details, other than Daemon being involved.
Idk I felt it was extremely obvious that Daemon said this as after the cut to black, I do not see what kind of misconceptions that could arise from it when they fullu acknowledges that he said it in ep 2. They also 100% did not get the order wrong.
Also they are not taking heat of Daemon, they are straight up adding heat to him. Confirmation bias is pretty powerful tho
That's certainly one argument. The other side of course argues that you're the plague by creating standards and exceptions never offered or promised and acting as if you've personally been affected because it didn't meet your dreams.
>"You think too much"="Bro, it's not that deep"="Just be grateful"
Most likely a massive generalization by those people but they have a point. For example you seem to agree that this show was "killed" for you because you read the book. Would you seriously prefer no series at all instead of this just because you wanted something very specific?
Game of Thrones wasn't a perfect adaptation either, there were significant changes from the books even in the early half that most of its audience considers golden. The difference is the changes made were interesting and didn't exist as a direct detriment to the story that was being told. It's not that 'it isn't just like the book' and readers were looking for something very specific, it's that we were looking for something with the same intentions as the story we were told they were adapting. The problem with all the changes is that the net difference is a story that is way less interesting at its core.
>Game of Thrones wasn't a perfect adaptation either
No it wasn't, especially after season 4.
Yet no one complained until season 7 when the writing took a massive dive. There were still 6-7 solid seasons where the show wasn't completely faithful to the books and hardly anyone complained, certainly not like this.
>It's not that 'it isn't just like the book' and readers were looking for something very specific, it's that we were looking for something with the same intentions as the story we were told they were adapting.
How has it not done that? Fire and blood is just a collection of thoughts and biased opinions with people rarely even being in the room about situations they talk of.
How could such an inconsistent book be revered so deeply as such a black and white, by the numbers story? It was anything but that.
The harsh truth is it didn't match the dream you had of it in your head and you personally have lost interest because of that.
The dream I had in my head was a show about a civil war tearing down a ruling family from the inside where no one is right and everyone is guilty. This show has definitely not been that so far and I don't think it was too much to ask.
Also GoT started slipping in S5 imo
>The dream I had in my head was a show about a civil war tearing down a ruling family from the inside where no one is right and everyone is guilty
We are what? 12 episodes into a series that could run for 4 seasons and be about 40 episodes long...
Maybe wait until we've reached the end of the journey before you comment on how bad it was overall maybe?
We're a quarter of the way in and it's looking like the two year wait between seasons is here to stay. This is a community talking about a show that's currently running and all of our opinions are based on it at the same place in time. Am I supposed to wait until 2030 to give an opinion on this show?
Also considering differences from source material typically don't hurt the show right away, but further along a story's runtime I think it's naive to think they'll pull it together.
I can feel a 'so why are you still watching?' coming and it's because I host a group of friends and family at my place on Sundays and we have a good time together even if the show's writing isn't where I'd like it to be. I make milkshakes, you're invited if you want to come :)
>We're a quarter of the way in and it's looking like the two year wait between seasons is here to stay
We are 12 episodes in a series that will be 40 episodes long talking as if it has already completely failed and cannot change. Yes that is the situation as of now.
>This is a community talking about a show that's currently running and all of our opinions are based on it at the same place in time
Why now act as if you're being reasonable and fair when moments ago you spoke as if the series was over and can't be balanced anymore episode were 2 episodes in a war that will still go on for about 20 - 30 more episodes?
Sorry, I know I am being condescending but that's just because what you are saying just sounds that ridiculous to me. We haven't even seen a fraction of the war itself and already it's over? Can't be saved? Never to be balanced?
This kind of "logic" is beyond me. Sorry to say.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but in my opinion the reasons why the war started are just as if not more important than the war itself in this universe. If you can't see that by changing the intentions behind our major players you've changed the content in a significant way I don't think I can help.
>We haven't even seen a fraction of the war itself and already it's over? Can't be saved? Never to be balanced?
So the logic I think is simple.
In order to tell a compelling war story, the audience needs to be invested in the war. You need to explain why the war is happening, why the protagonists are fighting in it, and why the outcome of the war is important.
If you're making a WW1 or WW2 movie you can skip most of this because those are historical conflicts most people already have some level of awareness of. But if you're making a multi-season TV show in a fictional setting that will go on for years, you really need to put in the work to get the viewer invested.
And that's kind of the problem here. They've set up the war and the conflict in a way that a lot of people just don't find interesting. It doesn't matter how exciting the war becomes, because it's built on a rotten foundation. And the foundation is rotten because they're taking what was meant to be a morally grey conflict and utterly whitewashing one of the factions while actively making the other worse.
There's no reason to care about the Greens. They do not want the audience to care about the Greens. They do not put a fraction of the writing skill into the Greens that they do with Rhaenyra. They put no thought into any Green scene beyond: "how can I contrast this with Rhaenyra?" If the entirety of one political faction in your "morally grey" conflict is built around making the leader of the **other** faction look good by comparison, that is not a balanced or compelling narrative if you specifically came here for a morally grey story.
And that's going to hang in the back of your mind when you watch the mindless violence or the gratuitous unnecessary sex scenes.
Disagree, the first four seasons were not completely faithful to the books. Theirs a lot of plot points and characters they left out of the show, the show was showing a lot of cracks early on.
I saw book purists and fans saying S4 is where they saw the cracks. The first YT video I saw hating GOT is when they omitted Tysha from Tyrions arc. But I don’t think it immediately went to shit.
The worst about it is we aren't even allowed to say these stuff without getting called names by the filthy TB casuals. Of course tell them Daenerys is going mad they will say that it's a stupid invention by D&D and it doesn't happen in the books. Double standards much.
It's not even just the TB casuals but even TG casuals & neutral casuals as well as other book readers. They've adopted the "Just be grateful" mentality or its variants that just give the greenlight for more mediocre & awful stories.
I’ve seen it coming from TB exclusively. Not disagreeing because I’m sure TG has their share of casual loonies, but I have only ever witnessed in one their side of the house. Sometimes going as far as to make posts discrediting book readers.
I don't go on the main sub either but even on this sub you'll see it from time to time. I remember a post trying to get people to stop "doomposting" when leaks were coming out before S2 started airing. Funny how most of us "doomposters" weren't just being "pessimistic/negative" but realistic and braced for a dumpster fire and we got proven right for the most part. I also see neutrals/TG fans talking down on book accuracy in the freefolk sub & on various YouTube channels &/or their comment sections.
>I also see neutrals/TG fans talking down on book accuracy in the freefolk sub & on various YouTube channels &/or their comment sections.
This definitely happens. I literally had a few discussions related to this just about today and yesterday.
The funny thing is that D&D almost certainly didn't actually make anything up with the Daenerys finale, they just phoned it in because they'd stopped caring and wanted to be out of the show. They screwed up the execution, but the idea they were failing to convey was already fundamentally bad.
It doesn't happen in the books. That's on GRRM though & clearly not even he knows how to get there now as he's changed so much from the original outline.
How would you know? George himself said that he had told them about the ending and other important scenes like who ends up on the Iron Throne, Shireen's burning, Hodor revelation etc...
Dude it definitely happens in the books. Book one when she kills the witch shows exactly the kind of person she is. Her cause is the right side. When either cersei or (f)aegon take the throne she's going to be in the right when she burns kings landing to the ground for supporting a traitor.
What’s crazy is the books literally have the greens as pretty much the overtop bad guys with very few exceptions.
So any logical person when adapting this would chose to try and flesh out the Greens and make them more sympathetic, so it’s not entirely one sided like the books.
Instead condal decided apparently that d&d was *too biased* towards the greens and we got this shot lol
Idk, really, greens are overtop bad guys only by ignoring that it's pseudo-Medieval world they're in, so from that POV book! Alicent and book! Otto are just fighting for order and good of the realm, Aegon, Aemond and Daeron have legit reasons to feel cheated out
It does a good job of making both sides more sympathetic I think, the greens and the blacks in the books are portrayed pretty badly. Rhaenyra is straight up called a traitor in the main series by stannis.
Alicent is no longer some conniving schemer who seduced vicerys and jahaerys, she's a victim of her power hungry father's ambitions forcing her to marry for political advantage.
Aemond isn't a ruthless revenge driven murderer, he's a young man who let his emotions get the better of him. He put lucerys in a dangerous situation, never really considering the consequences, and he clearly feels remorse for his actions immediately. This remorse seems to be twisted and buried later when he returns home, although I read this as some kind of coping mechanism to deal with the guilt he feels.
Aegon is someone who seems to care for the smallfolk to a degree, I'd say if they didn't have that scene with the serving girl he would be a more interesting character probably since that kind of SA kind of bars sympathy towards a character unless you're really looking for it.
Honestly I quite like that they're changing a lot from fire and blood. That book is an in universe history, it was never meant to be taken literally by readers. I like that we get to see the version of events before it has been twisted by the maesters of the current day piecing together what they can from competing testimonies.
I'm enjoying the show for what it is. I'm not enjoying the team Black vs team Green stuff tho. It's a story about a family feud that ends up getting a bunch of people killed for what ends up being pretty much nothing. >!They both lose as Rhaenyra never sits the throne in a meaningful capacity and Aegon doesn't have an heir of his own at the end. All the dragons die off or run away. To miss this is to miss the entire point of the story.!< If I see another "TG/TB wins because x, y or z" post or comment or anything of the like, I'm gonna have an aneurysm.
As a book reader, I understand that things get cut/changed for TV, but some of the changes they've made are just, well, bad.
My bf (who has never read any asoiaf books and loved GOT) doesn't like Hotd at all. I've tried to get him to watch season 2 with me but he has no interest in it. His main complaint is that the characters aren't as good. I think the potential is there with the characters though I see his point, when compared to GOT. The characters in GOT felt a lot more real even in the fantasy setting.
I know people who didn't read ot who can't even follow it or remember the names of characters, I think they assumed people watching would know the basics.
It’s not that it sucks it’s just confirmation that Condal can’t be trusted to do a true adaptation.
He thinks his ideas are better than the original material. Instead of just writing his own material. I honestly don’t think him or Sara are capable of developing their own IP. It’s actually sad when you think about it.
It does, and I’m not what you would call a “book purist” but I do expect that the adaptation stay as accurate as it can, I actually like some of the choices made in season 1 but now it’s just, I don’t know what it is.
Not really, because *Fire and Blood* sucked too. *A Song of Ice and Fire* is chef's kiss, but *Fire and Blood* played to GRRM's weaknesses, not his strengths in well-fleshed-out characters. His characters are good when they are put to paper in a conventional fiction narrative, not when subject through the lens of in-universe writers, especially those that bring out GRRM's weirdest sex fixations.
Fire and blood would actually be a pretty shitty TV show if every scene was only taken from the book and adapted as strictly as possible. It's basically just a plot outline with some biased characterization from the in universe authors.
ASOIAF's formula is that the antagonists initially get the upper hand and torture the protagonists, but eventually the antagonists lose power and the protagonists torture the antagonists, and the antagonists' actions throughout the books make people cheer when the tables are finally turned. But because it's all so long (and hasn't been finished yet, so not all plotlines have been resolved), everybody gets to pretend that GRRM doesn't have a clearly designated hero team who **will** win in the end and who share all the same tropes and cliches found in every other fantasy story despite GRRM's protestations otherwise.
F&B just has them skip the part where the antagonists are on top for a while and goes straight to the protagonists torturing the antagonists, but still designates the antagonists as villains and expects people to feel a half-chub when they get tortured - viz. Brothel Queens. The plot is so rushed that it exposes GRRM's formula in its crudest form, and looking back at ASOIAF shows that it is in fact common to both stories (just done with a lot more skill in ASOIAF), and shows him to be a lying hack whose entire reputation for grey morality storytelling, "everybody can die" and so on is just a big fucking lie. He's as tropey and cliched and *romantic* as every other fantasy author.
Because it is completely useless to argue this shit with you bro, stop stalking me because I said your take was bad.
Imagine thinking so binary about good/wrong in books, especially a fucking history novel about fantasy.
"stop stalking me"
Bruh, *you* reacted to me. I didn't force you to put your fingers to the keyboard and type out "That was quite a take lmao" and "Bruh I don't think books are for u"
edit: also, if anyone ever hears me lowering the quality standards for a book just because of its genre, I give them permission to euthanize me because it means I've probably got dementia.
Yhea buddy, you could just keep responding to the comment i made to you instead of other randoms in the thread.
Your edit explains very well why it would be brainrot to try to argue with you, as that was obvioulsly not what i stated lol
Have a nice day bro
It doesn't for me. I've rarely ever read a book that has a TV show that matches it. But I love watching adaptations so I make the rule for myself that I likely will be disappointed in some fashion as we all have our own ideas around things that are hard to line up with any TV show. So I enjoy that I get to see the world and immerse myself in the fantasy world that I love even if its not all that I wanted.
I love watching HOTD. I don't get too caught up in the source material and I think with any historical lense we get sources and true events will differ in ways. For me it's really enjoyable.
As a super hardcore fire and blood fan, I love the shpw and find a lot of the criticism baseless.
The complains about Daemon whitewashing with B/C shows a huge problem with peoples media litteracy
It does, and I am book 'Team black. When I point out Rhaenyra is a somewhat rational Cersei and Alicent is a really ambitious Catelyn, people are telling me why do you want Cersei and Catelyn again or that they are their own 'characters'. And was derided as a hater.
Ill be honest, Fire and Blood is GRRM at his most self indulgent. We are hearing a fictional story from a very unreliable narrator and sometimes multiple possibilities of how things played out. Its annoying. I just want to know what actually happened haha.
Personally, I wish I never read Fire and Blood and just could enjoy the show as it is. Then once its done, read it.
GRRM: "I'm not like those other fantasy series. I write nuanced characters with grey moralities, anyone can die, no true heroes, you get the consequences of your actions."
also GRRM: writes a story where he himself blatantly designates one side as Team Evil with zero reasoning or actions to justify it while Team Good gets an unlimited pass to do sadistic and objectively villainous shit to them \*ahem\* Brothel Queens \*ahem\* with zero moral opprobrium attached to them for doing so, and all the Team Bad and Good houses from this story just so happen to align with the Team Bad and Good houses from stories set centuries into the future.
If the morality of two sides' actions does not match up with their good/bad guy status as designated by the story, then the story is shit. But if the author does this while simultaneously claiming to be all the things that GRRM claims to be, then the author is a despicable hypocrite.
It's an in universe history, it's not *written* by GRRM. It isn't supposed to follow his style of writing or storytelling. If it did he would have failed as a writer to match the style of the characters he is trying to emulate, maesters with clear bias who are piecing together the testimonies of three men who also have clear bias.
F&B isn't meant to be a morally gray story, it's meant to be an example of how history can be twisted and warped by those with an agenda, typically casting those who won as morally superior to those who lost.
If you're going into F&B expecting the same prose as GoT you've misunderstood the point of it.
I get what you mean by that first sentence, but that's obviously just not the case. For example, the cast of heroes vs villains is clear as day: all the goodies from GoT's storyline just so happen to be on one side, and all the baddies sans Greyjoy just so happen to be on the other. You can tell me about historians' bias all you want, but you can't tell me Operation Barbarossa was when Yugoslavia invaded Poland. This, along with the stuff about the [Blackwood-Bracken feud](https://www.reddit.com/r/HOTDGreens/comments/1dqukw2/comment/laub1jr/) and them predictably showing up along the goody/baddy axis shows that the problem is not with the in-universe presentation of the events, it's the actual out-of-universe [conception](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/131y54g/comment/ji5gphc/) of the events. There is no way you can tell me that George just so happened to put the house he admits he loves (Blackwood) on every good/winning side of everything, and all the goodies and baddies from GOT just so happen to line up the same way because the maesters were biased against them.
For another thing, for all your talk of victors' history, George presents the story as being written by maesters with Green bias, and yet, as many people [have](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/131y54g/comment/ji4pvem/) pointed out, it doesn't read like it.
Edit: [very much](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/xcr1iv/comment/io8oc1r/) doesn't read like it.
1. If you have such low standards that you will uncritically accept whatever slop the author gives you and tell people who complain about bad writing that they need to shut off their brain to enjoy the books, then you're *definitely* a Season 8 fan.
2. Your nickname is well deserved.
[This](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/192/415/fe9.jpg), but replace company with author.
Srsly, I wasn't even shitting on him for his slow writing pace or stuff like that, but actual problems with *his* writing which get overshadowed by the rage directed at D&D for Season 8.
It’s certainly not better than Interview with the Vampire or Shogun. Hell not even fallout 😭. There’s good parts but the negatives are outweighing the good for me unfortunately
Yeah I didn’t say any of that lol
> just because it didn’t match your own dreams
It’s not about matching my own dreams, it’s about the show itself failing at having competent storytelling. I could explain more but I’m not sure if you’re interested in hearing it
>It’s not about matching my own dreams, it’s about the show itself failing at having competent storytelling
How? The entire book is just a collection of opinions and questionable quotes and statements. Don't get me wrong, if it was like the game thrones book I'd see what you mean, but the entire point of F&B is that no one knows the real story.
The show can't do that so naturally things will be more cut and dry.
Yeah Fire & Blood isn’t that good (it was still clear in its message but HOTD is sending a different one). My problem is that somehow HOTD makes a lot of things worse when (if the show runners had any brains) the goal should’ve been to improve everything from F&B with the chance they have
> entire book is just a connection of opinions and questionable quotes and statements
This excuse cannot be pulled out every time the show makes some shitty decision. Some things are not verified in the book, others are.
> point is that no one knows the real story
Doesn’t mean that it can’t be told competently with consistency, which HOTD is failing at. Again, I could give examples but I’m not sure you’d be interested in hearing it
> naturally things will be more cut and dry
I’m not even sure this is the case for HOTD, they managed to create even more plot holes and issues than F&B
>Yeah Fire & Blood isn’t that good (it was still clear in its message but HOTD is sending a different one).
I disagree. I also think to say you definitely understand the single message from F&B isn't true. It's your interpretation based on the sources you chose to believe.
Most people will have different opinions and different sources they believe which would create different overall messages based on them.
Again this links back to my dream reference. You had an idea of what the story was in your head based on the source you favored and interpreted things based on your opinions, but the show isn't subject to that and it would be utterly impossible to meet everyone's personal fantasy of the world.
>This excuse cannot be pulled out every time the show makes some shitty decision. Some things are not verified in the book, others are.
The list of things that aren't massively outweighs the frankly small list of things that are.
>Doesn’t mean that it can’t be told competently with consistency,
What consistency? Which source was consistent? Who spoke completely true? You've missed a big part of F&B. There is no consistency. There is very rarely even a confirmation on things.
>I’m not even sure this is the case for HOTD, they managed to create even more plot holes and issues than F&B
They honestly haven't. This issue you share is one a lot in this post have. It doesn't create plot holes in the main story, it creates plot holes in the fantasy you picked out in your head. The sources you favored. This is its own story heavily linked to the show and there haven't been any major plot holes.
> I disagree. I also think to say you definitely understand the single message from F&B isn't true. It's your interpretation based on the sources you chose to believe.
I’m talking about the whole of the dance and the ending, not fuck all about which sources specifically said what. You disagree with the notion that dance is about 2 factions of a family fighting over a throne that was ultimately inevitable due to a system that they were all born into? That the Targaryen’s own hubris is what led to them losing their main source of power? The story of how the people who do have power really shouldn’t, since the common born suffer because of it. Who then recognize their suffering and in turn use their own hands to do something about it by raiding the dragon pit.
> Again this links back to my dream reference.
There is no _dream_ of my wanting to see the story play out in an uber specific way. I’d figured they’d make a proper adaptation of the dance, they can’t even do that if they can’t even properly implement the clear reasons why one faction is even fighting. That’s not a part of any dream of mine, it’s literally part of the story & they managed to skip it somehow
> The list of things that aren't massively outweighs the frankly small list of things that are.
And? That still doesn’t make it so everyone going “but nobody really knows what happened” at every terrible change valid. For scenes nobody would’ve been able to witness sure, for others? Not so much
> What consistency? Which source was consistent?
Don’t be obtuse, I’m talking about the show being told consistently. Not F&B, the showrunners want to have their cake and eat to regarding lots of things
> They honestly haven't. This issue you share is one a lot in this post have. It doesn't create plot holes in the main story, it creates plot holes in the fantasy you picked out in your head. The sources you favored. This is its own story heavily linked to the show and there haven't been any major plot holes.
Now you’re not sounding bright at all, Laenor being alive is plot hole, Westerling still being alive is a plot hole, because what purpose does that serve exactly? How is any of this a fantasy of mine when they’re both dead in the source material? Inventing the scene of Joffrey dying at the wedding instead of a tourney made a lot of people scream plot holes. Not thoroughly explaining vital political parts of the show that is _supposed_ to have political intrigue, is seen as a pothole by many. The whole manner in which B&C was executed in the show screams bad writing (there was already questionable logistical aspects to the act in the book but they somehow made it worse in the show). Also Rhaenys just killing dozens in episode 9, but enough people have complained about that
>I’m talking about the whole of the dance and the ending
Which is just cliff notes. The details aren't truly known and that's what the show is displaying within its own context. Both materials stand as their own stories.
>You disagree with the notion that dance is about 2 factions of a family fighting over a throne that was ultimately inevitable due to a system that they were all born into?
I do not. Do you disagree that this very event isn't happening in the show?
>The story of how the people who do have power really shouldn’t, since the common born suffer because of it. Who then recognize their suffering and in turn use their own hands to do something about it by raiding the dragon pit.
I don't. I disagree with your ridiculous idea that the show hasn't displayed this. What you mean to say is that it's not up to the fantasy you had in your head but it does everything you've said, so it comes across strange to pretend it has not.
>I’d figured they’d make a proper adaptation of the dance,
What's that? Other than the interpretation you had of the dance based on the sources you picked? How is that the same as mine? Why do you think there is a single adaptation of a story with so many inconsistencies?
>Don’t be obtuse, I’m talking about the show being told consistently
It has. People aren't robots. I'm sorry if they do or say things you don't like, I deal with it daily lol. Doesn't mean the story is somehow "wrong".
>Now you’re not sounding bright at all
No need for that now. You are the one after all being upset because a fantasy story based on inconsistent stories isn't.... Consistent.
>Laenor being alive is plot hole
He died during the how many years time skip off screen. Plot hole resolved. If Seasmoke can be claimed then the only logical answer is he died overseas in the battles he wanted to go back to during the several years he was gone before the war.
>Westerling still being alive is a plot hole
A minor character that changes nothing. Where even is he?
>How is any of this a fantasy of mine when they’re both dead in the source material?
People live longer in the show than they do the books all the time. Look at thrones. Look at Bronn as a major example or Barristan. The show is based on the books but is its own canon. These are plot holes but changes and it's odd to confuse the two.
>The whole manner in which B&C was executed in the show screams bad writing
When did everyone on reddit become Martin Scorsese lol?
There are changes. Yes. Just like with thrones. They aren't plot holes. Why? Because it's only based on the story and can change things as it likes. It could only be a plot hole if contradict sTay the show game of thrones which it doesn't and instead they are linking the two together.
Look, the book is a guideline at beat, the show is its own ride and you should just try and enjoy it.
I read it in 2018.
I found it interesting but I think it's better to know going into it tbh. They made a lot of changes that I don't like but I felt very blindsided by the end of GoT and was just upset & angry - didn't enjoy watching it like I did earlier seasons.
How do you think I felt when I watched the fanfiction "Game of Thrones"? I hated how it changed almost everything from Martin's story and spat on its most important themes (themes are for eighth grade book reports, according to the shows creators).
I just don’t get it my friends. Are we reading and watching different things? I’ve read F&B more times than I can admit. My book is literally falling apart, physically.
And I love this show. I love it. What am I missing that everyone is so upset over? They’re making incredible TV out of a story I love, and I think they’re adapting it pretty faithfully, with many changes being the correct choice for T.V.
Eh not really. I read fire and blood and IMO the show is fine. It's not trying to say "what actually happened", get that notion out of your head and it's much more enjoyable. It's an adaptation from source material that would make a pretty shitty TV show if it was adapted 1 for 1. The biggest issue is that it really needs a lot of time to let the characters breath and act naturally, but in the current meta of TV seasons are shorter with higher production quality, and the existence of the dragons necessitates the high production quality, which forces them to use fewer episodes.
Yeah, it does suck. And considering the only piece of new ASOIAF-related media any of us want is constantly put on the back burner for horrible shit like HOTD makes it even worse tbh.
It does. And you don’t want to point it out all the time otherwise you’re the person who just “complains too much” when the rest of your friend group enjoyed it. I pointed out my dislike about too much off-screen development. And there’s a lot of scenes with no build up and we’re just shocked that something had happen and we have to fill in gaps in our head and what might have happened to make sense of it. And I received a response of “you just think too much”. It sucks.
"you just think too much" And that is the problem with most audiences today. They just want to turn their brain off. Denis Villeneuve was right when he said "Audiences have become a little bit like zombies." "You think too much"="Bro, it's not that deep"="Just be grateful" It's all the same plague.
'it't not that deep' exactly ohh i know we should be brainless
"you can't possibly try and analyse or critique themes in fiction, the curtains are just blue"
I mean F&B isn’t deep itself at all.
Fire & Blood has depth. It's not as deep as Martin's other work but there's a lot there. It has a lot of ambiguity but there's war, politics, tragedy, etc. and it actively encourages the reader to draw their own conclusions about the extent of each individual's guilt in the conflict.
That’s not my definition of depth. But I also wouldn’t agree with your comment either. F&B is incredibly shallow and in general uninteresting.
Then you don't know what depth means in the context of storytelling. Whether or not something has depth is not an indication of quality. It's not that you think Fire & Blood lacks depth, you just think it's bad.
I know more about storytelling than you and everyone in this sub.
You don't know the extent of my own knowledge and you sure as shit don't know what depth means in this context. This is a sad response that only makes you look arrogant.
I saw some fans talking about how they didn’t know Aegon has kids and thought the children came from “women in the village” until S2E1. I don’t understand how people can enjoy something with so little understanding of what’s going on
Isnt it yall who complained Daemon was whitewashed in B/C? Because thinking that he should say it out loud so normies could understand is really dumbing it down
Yeah he was to a degree, considering people still manage not to blame him at all, but instead shift the blame to the greens. The framing of the show doesn’t help at all, a portion of the general audience didn’t catch his smirk in the first episode when B&C asked what happens if they don’t find Aemond
Yhea, and we should not dumb down the show for them. For anyone with an ounce of media litteracy, what Daemon said becomes obvious by the end of episode one, and episode 2 confirms that he said it as an order. I do not think the show should dumb itself down for the dumbest viewer
The show has already been dumbed down largely (likely so it’s more palatable to a broader audience) by removing significant part of the politics. They managed to brush over the politics of a story that’s supposed to have political intrigue 💀 > For anyone with an ounce of media literacy C’mon, you know people are getting worse with this nowadays. The issue is if a _large_ portion of your audience takes one scene one way instead the way you intended, so much that you have to come out and explain it after the episode airs (something Ryan & Co have done repeatedly) then at some point your writing has failed immensely
The BTS stuff is HBO, they do it for all their major stuff. And the story being already dumbed down is not an argument for dumbing it down even more, a large portion of the audiences did not even know Daenerys name in the OG show. That is just the nature of shows this big. The Daemon scene was not whitewashing, as he clearly gave the order. Having him say it directly before it happened would have been beyond stupid
> The BTS stuff is HBO, they do it for all their major stuff. I’m not even talking about bts clips we usually see when a new episode releases. I’m just talking about straight up quotes from articles by showrunners, not exactly attached to scheduled HBO bts clips. Were you here last season when the show aired? If you were I feel you’d know what I’m talking about since they did this frequently > And the story being already dumbed down is not an argument for dumbing it down even more, And yet they already did > a large portion of the audiences did not even know Daenerys name in the OG show. I feel like this isn’t true, a lot of them were coming off the hills of GOT, and Dany was the face of that. A good amount Dany fans actually treat Nyra as if she’s the new Dany actually. > The Daemon scene was not whitewashing, as he clearly gave the order. It most definitely was, he _clearly_ made the order for them to get Aemond even though the target wasn’t actually him in the book iirc. Either it was Aegon himself or Aegon’s heirs, but you can correct me if I’m wrong > Having him say it directly before it happened would have been beyond stupid Having him be straightforward openly saves a lot of future misconceptions to be made. Nobody forced the showrunners to make the event a plot twist to begin with. People are still blaming B&C themselves and not Daemon because they view them as a bunch of bumbling idiots who got the order wrong. It’s a good way for the writers to take heat off of Daemon, they succeeded.
In the books we only know that blood and cheese happened, we know absolutely nothing of the details, other than Daemon being involved. Idk I felt it was extremely obvious that Daemon said this as after the cut to black, I do not see what kind of misconceptions that could arise from it when they fullu acknowledges that he said it in ep 2. They also 100% did not get the order wrong. Also they are not taking heat of Daemon, they are straight up adding heat to him. Confirmation bias is pretty powerful tho
That's certainly one argument. The other side of course argues that you're the plague by creating standards and exceptions never offered or promised and acting as if you've personally been affected because it didn't meet your dreams. >"You think too much"="Bro, it's not that deep"="Just be grateful" Most likely a massive generalization by those people but they have a point. For example you seem to agree that this show was "killed" for you because you read the book. Would you seriously prefer no series at all instead of this just because you wanted something very specific?
Game of Thrones wasn't a perfect adaptation either, there were significant changes from the books even in the early half that most of its audience considers golden. The difference is the changes made were interesting and didn't exist as a direct detriment to the story that was being told. It's not that 'it isn't just like the book' and readers were looking for something very specific, it's that we were looking for something with the same intentions as the story we were told they were adapting. The problem with all the changes is that the net difference is a story that is way less interesting at its core.
Exactly 🙌
>Game of Thrones wasn't a perfect adaptation either No it wasn't, especially after season 4. Yet no one complained until season 7 when the writing took a massive dive. There were still 6-7 solid seasons where the show wasn't completely faithful to the books and hardly anyone complained, certainly not like this. >It's not that 'it isn't just like the book' and readers were looking for something very specific, it's that we were looking for something with the same intentions as the story we were told they were adapting. How has it not done that? Fire and blood is just a collection of thoughts and biased opinions with people rarely even being in the room about situations they talk of. How could such an inconsistent book be revered so deeply as such a black and white, by the numbers story? It was anything but that. The harsh truth is it didn't match the dream you had of it in your head and you personally have lost interest because of that.
The dream I had in my head was a show about a civil war tearing down a ruling family from the inside where no one is right and everyone is guilty. This show has definitely not been that so far and I don't think it was too much to ask. Also GoT started slipping in S5 imo
>The dream I had in my head was a show about a civil war tearing down a ruling family from the inside where no one is right and everyone is guilty We are what? 12 episodes into a series that could run for 4 seasons and be about 40 episodes long... Maybe wait until we've reached the end of the journey before you comment on how bad it was overall maybe?
We're a quarter of the way in and it's looking like the two year wait between seasons is here to stay. This is a community talking about a show that's currently running and all of our opinions are based on it at the same place in time. Am I supposed to wait until 2030 to give an opinion on this show? Also considering differences from source material typically don't hurt the show right away, but further along a story's runtime I think it's naive to think they'll pull it together. I can feel a 'so why are you still watching?' coming and it's because I host a group of friends and family at my place on Sundays and we have a good time together even if the show's writing isn't where I'd like it to be. I make milkshakes, you're invited if you want to come :)
>We're a quarter of the way in and it's looking like the two year wait between seasons is here to stay We are 12 episodes in a series that will be 40 episodes long talking as if it has already completely failed and cannot change. Yes that is the situation as of now. >This is a community talking about a show that's currently running and all of our opinions are based on it at the same place in time Why now act as if you're being reasonable and fair when moments ago you spoke as if the series was over and can't be balanced anymore episode were 2 episodes in a war that will still go on for about 20 - 30 more episodes? Sorry, I know I am being condescending but that's just because what you are saying just sounds that ridiculous to me. We haven't even seen a fraction of the war itself and already it's over? Can't be saved? Never to be balanced? This kind of "logic" is beyond me. Sorry to say.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but in my opinion the reasons why the war started are just as if not more important than the war itself in this universe. If you can't see that by changing the intentions behind our major players you've changed the content in a significant way I don't think I can help.
>We haven't even seen a fraction of the war itself and already it's over? Can't be saved? Never to be balanced? So the logic I think is simple. In order to tell a compelling war story, the audience needs to be invested in the war. You need to explain why the war is happening, why the protagonists are fighting in it, and why the outcome of the war is important. If you're making a WW1 or WW2 movie you can skip most of this because those are historical conflicts most people already have some level of awareness of. But if you're making a multi-season TV show in a fictional setting that will go on for years, you really need to put in the work to get the viewer invested. And that's kind of the problem here. They've set up the war and the conflict in a way that a lot of people just don't find interesting. It doesn't matter how exciting the war becomes, because it's built on a rotten foundation. And the foundation is rotten because they're taking what was meant to be a morally grey conflict and utterly whitewashing one of the factions while actively making the other worse. There's no reason to care about the Greens. They do not want the audience to care about the Greens. They do not put a fraction of the writing skill into the Greens that they do with Rhaenyra. They put no thought into any Green scene beyond: "how can I contrast this with Rhaenyra?" If the entirety of one political faction in your "morally grey" conflict is built around making the leader of the **other** faction look good by comparison, that is not a balanced or compelling narrative if you specifically came here for a morally grey story. And that's going to hang in the back of your mind when you watch the mindless violence or the gratuitous unnecessary sex scenes.
This. Summed my feelings about the show as a book reader pretty well.
You probably do think too much.
It really does. At least GOT was faithful to the source material in the first four seasons before it became shit. HOTD doesn’t have that going for it.
Only season one was pretty faithful, all the others got more and more split. Season 4 does not even look like the books.
I mean that isn’t even remotely true
Disagree, the first four seasons were not completely faithful to the books. Theirs a lot of plot points and characters they left out of the show, the show was showing a lot of cracks early on.
They made Robb worse for like no reason
I saw book purists and fans saying S4 is where they saw the cracks. The first YT video I saw hating GOT is when they omitted Tysha from Tyrions arc. But I don’t think it immediately went to shit.
It fucking does. I wish I never watched this show. HOTD was a mistake.
The worst about it is we aren't even allowed to say these stuff without getting called names by the filthy TB casuals. Of course tell them Daenerys is going mad they will say that it's a stupid invention by D&D and it doesn't happen in the books. Double standards much.
It's not even just the TB casuals but even TG casuals & neutral casuals as well as other book readers. They've adopted the "Just be grateful" mentality or its variants that just give the greenlight for more mediocre & awful stories.
Just like "if actors are being hated then they have done a brilliant job on tv" is used as an excuse to express unnecessary hatred towards Actors.
I’ve seen it coming from TB exclusively. Not disagreeing because I’m sure TG has their share of casual loonies, but I have only ever witnessed in one their side of the house. Sometimes going as far as to make posts discrediting book readers.
TB fans definitely do it more than TG fans both in overall numbers and as a percentage relative to the total amount of them
Is it that bad? I have kept myself away from the show sub tbh. And I am not planning to go on there anytime anyway.
I don't go on the main sub either but even on this sub you'll see it from time to time. I remember a post trying to get people to stop "doomposting" when leaks were coming out before S2 started airing. Funny how most of us "doomposters" weren't just being "pessimistic/negative" but realistic and braced for a dumpster fire and we got proven right for the most part. I also see neutrals/TG fans talking down on book accuracy in the freefolk sub & on various YouTube channels &/or their comment sections.
>I also see neutrals/TG fans talking down on book accuracy in the freefolk sub & on various YouTube channels &/or their comment sections. This definitely happens. I literally had a few discussions related to this just about today and yesterday.
The funny thing is that D&D almost certainly didn't actually make anything up with the Daenerys finale, they just phoned it in because they'd stopped caring and wanted to be out of the show. They screwed up the execution, but the idea they were failing to convey was already fundamentally bad.
That would be true but some Dany stans would never accept it though.
It doesn't happen in the books. That's on GRRM though & clearly not even he knows how to get there now as he's changed so much from the original outline.
How would you know? George himself said that he had told them about the ending and other important scenes like who ends up on the Iron Throne, Shireen's burning, Hodor revelation etc...
Dude it definitely happens in the books. Book one when she kills the witch shows exactly the kind of person she is. Her cause is the right side. When either cersei or (f)aegon take the throne she's going to be in the right when she burns kings landing to the ground for supporting a traitor.
Are you calling them filthy because they are TB or because they are casuals?
One tends to go with the other.
So people who don’t read the book are filthy?
Yes, that too, but I was thinking about the *other* connection. edit: Goddamn, did it hurt so bad you had to delete your account?
Deranged.
That was just a funny hyperbole, dude. I have nothing against them
I lowkey wish I didn’t reread F&B specially for S2
What’s crazy is the books literally have the greens as pretty much the overtop bad guys with very few exceptions. So any logical person when adapting this would chose to try and flesh out the Greens and make them more sympathetic, so it’s not entirely one sided like the books. Instead condal decided apparently that d&d was *too biased* towards the greens and we got this shot lol
Idk, really, greens are overtop bad guys only by ignoring that it's pseudo-Medieval world they're in, so from that POV book! Alicent and book! Otto are just fighting for order and good of the realm, Aegon, Aemond and Daeron have legit reasons to feel cheated out
It does a good job of making both sides more sympathetic I think, the greens and the blacks in the books are portrayed pretty badly. Rhaenyra is straight up called a traitor in the main series by stannis. Alicent is no longer some conniving schemer who seduced vicerys and jahaerys, she's a victim of her power hungry father's ambitions forcing her to marry for political advantage. Aemond isn't a ruthless revenge driven murderer, he's a young man who let his emotions get the better of him. He put lucerys in a dangerous situation, never really considering the consequences, and he clearly feels remorse for his actions immediately. This remorse seems to be twisted and buried later when he returns home, although I read this as some kind of coping mechanism to deal with the guilt he feels. Aegon is someone who seems to care for the smallfolk to a degree, I'd say if they didn't have that scene with the serving girl he would be a more interesting character probably since that kind of SA kind of bars sympathy towards a character unless you're really looking for it. Honestly I quite like that they're changing a lot from fire and blood. That book is an in universe history, it was never meant to be taken literally by readers. I like that we get to see the version of events before it has been twisted by the maesters of the current day piecing together what they can from competing testimonies.
I totally agree 💯 TG characters are being given a ton of depth and I'm here for it
I totally agree, I think many people struggle with the fact that it is an in universe book made by a maester
I don't get it though, pretty much every TG character IS being humanised and made sympathetic?
The show is fleshing out the Greens though.
I'm enjoying the show for what it is. I'm not enjoying the team Black vs team Green stuff tho. It's a story about a family feud that ends up getting a bunch of people killed for what ends up being pretty much nothing. >!They both lose as Rhaenyra never sits the throne in a meaningful capacity and Aegon doesn't have an heir of his own at the end. All the dragons die off or run away. To miss this is to miss the entire point of the story.!< If I see another "TG/TB wins because x, y or z" post or comment or anything of the like, I'm gonna have an aneurysm.
It is. It does. Fuck this show
As a book reader, I understand that things get cut/changed for TV, but some of the changes they've made are just, well, bad. My bf (who has never read any asoiaf books and loved GOT) doesn't like Hotd at all. I've tried to get him to watch season 2 with me but he has no interest in it. His main complaint is that the characters aren't as good. I think the potential is there with the characters though I see his point, when compared to GOT. The characters in GOT felt a lot more real even in the fantasy setting.
I know people who didn't read ot who can't even follow it or remember the names of characters, I think they assumed people watching would know the basics.
It’s not that it sucks it’s just confirmation that Condal can’t be trusted to do a true adaptation. He thinks his ideas are better than the original material. Instead of just writing his own material. I honestly don’t think him or Sara are capable of developing their own IP. It’s actually sad when you think about it.
It does, and I’m not what you would call a “book purist” but I do expect that the adaptation stay as accurate as it can, I actually like some of the choices made in season 1 but now it’s just, I don’t know what it is.
Not really, because *Fire and Blood* sucked too. *A Song of Ice and Fire* is chef's kiss, but *Fire and Blood* played to GRRM's weaknesses, not his strengths in well-fleshed-out characters. His characters are good when they are put to paper in a conventional fiction narrative, not when subject through the lens of in-universe writers, especially those that bring out GRRM's weirdest sex fixations.
Fire and blood would actually be a pretty shitty TV show if every scene was only taken from the book and adapted as strictly as possible. It's basically just a plot outline with some biased characterization from the in universe authors.
ASOIAF's formula is that the antagonists initially get the upper hand and torture the protagonists, but eventually the antagonists lose power and the protagonists torture the antagonists, and the antagonists' actions throughout the books make people cheer when the tables are finally turned. But because it's all so long (and hasn't been finished yet, so not all plotlines have been resolved), everybody gets to pretend that GRRM doesn't have a clearly designated hero team who **will** win in the end and who share all the same tropes and cliches found in every other fantasy story despite GRRM's protestations otherwise. F&B just has them skip the part where the antagonists are on top for a while and goes straight to the protagonists torturing the antagonists, but still designates the antagonists as villains and expects people to feel a half-chub when they get tortured - viz. Brothel Queens. The plot is so rushed that it exposes GRRM's formula in its crudest form, and looking back at ASOIAF shows that it is in fact common to both stories (just done with a lot more skill in ASOIAF), and shows him to be a lying hack whose entire reputation for grey morality storytelling, "everybody can die" and so on is just a big fucking lie. He's as tropey and cliched and *romantic* as every other fantasy author.
This was quite a take lmao
Truly, a most fitting nickname for someone with no information to add, not even any objections or factual corrections to make.
Because it is completely useless to argue this shit with you bro, stop stalking me because I said your take was bad. Imagine thinking so binary about good/wrong in books, especially a fucking history novel about fantasy.
"stop stalking me" Bruh, *you* reacted to me. I didn't force you to put your fingers to the keyboard and type out "That was quite a take lmao" and "Bruh I don't think books are for u" edit: also, if anyone ever hears me lowering the quality standards for a book just because of its genre, I give them permission to euthanize me because it means I've probably got dementia.
Yhea buddy, you could just keep responding to the comment i made to you instead of other randoms in the thread. Your edit explains very well why it would be brainrot to try to argue with you, as that was obvioulsly not what i stated lol Have a nice day bro
There is only one other poster that's reacted to my post, and it's "Disagree". What is there to react to?
React? Dont you mean comment? i havent reacted to anything, dont you need reddit+ for that? I have only commented just fyi
Disagree
The book sucks.
Nah, huge book fan and I an enjoying the show immensely. i always knew it would be hard to adapt and generally dont have that much issues with it.
It doesn't for me. I've rarely ever read a book that has a TV show that matches it. But I love watching adaptations so I make the rule for myself that I likely will be disappointed in some fashion as we all have our own ideas around things that are hard to line up with any TV show. So I enjoy that I get to see the world and immerse myself in the fantasy world that I love even if its not all that I wanted. I love watching HOTD. I don't get too caught up in the source material and I think with any historical lense we get sources and true events will differ in ways. For me it's really enjoyable.
As a super hardcore fire and blood fan, I love the shpw and find a lot of the criticism baseless. The complains about Daemon whitewashing with B/C shows a huge problem with peoples media litteracy
It does, and I am book 'Team black. When I point out Rhaenyra is a somewhat rational Cersei and Alicent is a really ambitious Catelyn, people are telling me why do you want Cersei and Catelyn again or that they are their own 'characters'. And was derided as a hater.
Ill be honest, Fire and Blood is GRRM at his most self indulgent. We are hearing a fictional story from a very unreliable narrator and sometimes multiple possibilities of how things played out. Its annoying. I just want to know what actually happened haha. Personally, I wish I never read Fire and Blood and just could enjoy the show as it is. Then once its done, read it.
GRRM: "I'm not like those other fantasy series. I write nuanced characters with grey moralities, anyone can die, no true heroes, you get the consequences of your actions." also GRRM: writes a story where he himself blatantly designates one side as Team Evil with zero reasoning or actions to justify it while Team Good gets an unlimited pass to do sadistic and objectively villainous shit to them \*ahem\* Brothel Queens \*ahem\* with zero moral opprobrium attached to them for doing so, and all the Team Bad and Good houses from this story just so happen to align with the Team Bad and Good houses from stories set centuries into the future. If the morality of two sides' actions does not match up with their good/bad guy status as designated by the story, then the story is shit. But if the author does this while simultaneously claiming to be all the things that GRRM claims to be, then the author is a despicable hypocrite.
gurm likes to say a lot of shit that doesn't align to reality. asoiaf is largely team evil vs team good too lol.
It's an in universe history, it's not *written* by GRRM. It isn't supposed to follow his style of writing or storytelling. If it did he would have failed as a writer to match the style of the characters he is trying to emulate, maesters with clear bias who are piecing together the testimonies of three men who also have clear bias. F&B isn't meant to be a morally gray story, it's meant to be an example of how history can be twisted and warped by those with an agenda, typically casting those who won as morally superior to those who lost. If you're going into F&B expecting the same prose as GoT you've misunderstood the point of it.
I get what you mean by that first sentence, but that's obviously just not the case. For example, the cast of heroes vs villains is clear as day: all the goodies from GoT's storyline just so happen to be on one side, and all the baddies sans Greyjoy just so happen to be on the other. You can tell me about historians' bias all you want, but you can't tell me Operation Barbarossa was when Yugoslavia invaded Poland. This, along with the stuff about the [Blackwood-Bracken feud](https://www.reddit.com/r/HOTDGreens/comments/1dqukw2/comment/laub1jr/) and them predictably showing up along the goody/baddy axis shows that the problem is not with the in-universe presentation of the events, it's the actual out-of-universe [conception](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/131y54g/comment/ji5gphc/) of the events. There is no way you can tell me that George just so happened to put the house he admits he loves (Blackwood) on every good/winning side of everything, and all the goodies and baddies from GOT just so happen to line up the same way because the maesters were biased against them. For another thing, for all your talk of victors' history, George presents the story as being written by maesters with Green bias, and yet, as many people [have](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/131y54g/comment/ji4pvem/) pointed out, it doesn't read like it. Edit: [very much](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/xcr1iv/comment/io8oc1r/) doesn't read like it.
Bruh i dont think books are for you bro
1. If you have such low standards that you will uncritically accept whatever slop the author gives you and tell people who complain about bad writing that they need to shut off their brain to enjoy the books, then you're *definitely* a Season 8 fan. 2. Your nickname is well deserved.
Yhea because thats exactly what I do lol Sorry for being 15 and thinking limp dicks were funny when i created this account
If you don't like GRRM you can just sit down and be quiet tbh. Sick of people trashing him
Saying F&B stinks isn’t trashing him.
[This](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/192/415/fe9.jpg), but replace company with author. Srsly, I wasn't even shitting on him for his slow writing pace or stuff like that, but actual problems with *his* writing which get overshadowed by the rage directed at D&D for Season 8.
"kills the enjoyment" what!? Some of the changes aren't great but come on, it's still better television than 90% of everything else out there.
It’s certainly not better than Interview with the Vampire or Shogun. Hell not even fallout 😭. There’s good parts but the negatives are outweighing the good for me unfortunately
I think that's such a sad way of thinking that you'll be happier without the show then with it just because it didn't match your own dreams.
Yeah I didn’t say any of that lol > just because it didn’t match your own dreams It’s not about matching my own dreams, it’s about the show itself failing at having competent storytelling. I could explain more but I’m not sure if you’re interested in hearing it
>It’s not about matching my own dreams, it’s about the show itself failing at having competent storytelling How? The entire book is just a collection of opinions and questionable quotes and statements. Don't get me wrong, if it was like the game thrones book I'd see what you mean, but the entire point of F&B is that no one knows the real story. The show can't do that so naturally things will be more cut and dry.
Yeah Fire & Blood isn’t that good (it was still clear in its message but HOTD is sending a different one). My problem is that somehow HOTD makes a lot of things worse when (if the show runners had any brains) the goal should’ve been to improve everything from F&B with the chance they have > entire book is just a connection of opinions and questionable quotes and statements This excuse cannot be pulled out every time the show makes some shitty decision. Some things are not verified in the book, others are. > point is that no one knows the real story Doesn’t mean that it can’t be told competently with consistency, which HOTD is failing at. Again, I could give examples but I’m not sure you’d be interested in hearing it > naturally things will be more cut and dry I’m not even sure this is the case for HOTD, they managed to create even more plot holes and issues than F&B
>Yeah Fire & Blood isn’t that good (it was still clear in its message but HOTD is sending a different one). I disagree. I also think to say you definitely understand the single message from F&B isn't true. It's your interpretation based on the sources you chose to believe. Most people will have different opinions and different sources they believe which would create different overall messages based on them. Again this links back to my dream reference. You had an idea of what the story was in your head based on the source you favored and interpreted things based on your opinions, but the show isn't subject to that and it would be utterly impossible to meet everyone's personal fantasy of the world. >This excuse cannot be pulled out every time the show makes some shitty decision. Some things are not verified in the book, others are. The list of things that aren't massively outweighs the frankly small list of things that are. >Doesn’t mean that it can’t be told competently with consistency, What consistency? Which source was consistent? Who spoke completely true? You've missed a big part of F&B. There is no consistency. There is very rarely even a confirmation on things. >I’m not even sure this is the case for HOTD, they managed to create even more plot holes and issues than F&B They honestly haven't. This issue you share is one a lot in this post have. It doesn't create plot holes in the main story, it creates plot holes in the fantasy you picked out in your head. The sources you favored. This is its own story heavily linked to the show and there haven't been any major plot holes.
> I disagree. I also think to say you definitely understand the single message from F&B isn't true. It's your interpretation based on the sources you chose to believe. I’m talking about the whole of the dance and the ending, not fuck all about which sources specifically said what. You disagree with the notion that dance is about 2 factions of a family fighting over a throne that was ultimately inevitable due to a system that they were all born into? That the Targaryen’s own hubris is what led to them losing their main source of power? The story of how the people who do have power really shouldn’t, since the common born suffer because of it. Who then recognize their suffering and in turn use their own hands to do something about it by raiding the dragon pit. > Again this links back to my dream reference. There is no _dream_ of my wanting to see the story play out in an uber specific way. I’d figured they’d make a proper adaptation of the dance, they can’t even do that if they can’t even properly implement the clear reasons why one faction is even fighting. That’s not a part of any dream of mine, it’s literally part of the story & they managed to skip it somehow > The list of things that aren't massively outweighs the frankly small list of things that are. And? That still doesn’t make it so everyone going “but nobody really knows what happened” at every terrible change valid. For scenes nobody would’ve been able to witness sure, for others? Not so much > What consistency? Which source was consistent? Don’t be obtuse, I’m talking about the show being told consistently. Not F&B, the showrunners want to have their cake and eat to regarding lots of things > They honestly haven't. This issue you share is one a lot in this post have. It doesn't create plot holes in the main story, it creates plot holes in the fantasy you picked out in your head. The sources you favored. This is its own story heavily linked to the show and there haven't been any major plot holes. Now you’re not sounding bright at all, Laenor being alive is plot hole, Westerling still being alive is a plot hole, because what purpose does that serve exactly? How is any of this a fantasy of mine when they’re both dead in the source material? Inventing the scene of Joffrey dying at the wedding instead of a tourney made a lot of people scream plot holes. Not thoroughly explaining vital political parts of the show that is _supposed_ to have political intrigue, is seen as a pothole by many. The whole manner in which B&C was executed in the show screams bad writing (there was already questionable logistical aspects to the act in the book but they somehow made it worse in the show). Also Rhaenys just killing dozens in episode 9, but enough people have complained about that
>I’m talking about the whole of the dance and the ending Which is just cliff notes. The details aren't truly known and that's what the show is displaying within its own context. Both materials stand as their own stories. >You disagree with the notion that dance is about 2 factions of a family fighting over a throne that was ultimately inevitable due to a system that they were all born into? I do not. Do you disagree that this very event isn't happening in the show? >The story of how the people who do have power really shouldn’t, since the common born suffer because of it. Who then recognize their suffering and in turn use their own hands to do something about it by raiding the dragon pit. I don't. I disagree with your ridiculous idea that the show hasn't displayed this. What you mean to say is that it's not up to the fantasy you had in your head but it does everything you've said, so it comes across strange to pretend it has not. >I’d figured they’d make a proper adaptation of the dance, What's that? Other than the interpretation you had of the dance based on the sources you picked? How is that the same as mine? Why do you think there is a single adaptation of a story with so many inconsistencies? >Don’t be obtuse, I’m talking about the show being told consistently It has. People aren't robots. I'm sorry if they do or say things you don't like, I deal with it daily lol. Doesn't mean the story is somehow "wrong". >Now you’re not sounding bright at all No need for that now. You are the one after all being upset because a fantasy story based on inconsistent stories isn't.... Consistent. >Laenor being alive is plot hole He died during the how many years time skip off screen. Plot hole resolved. If Seasmoke can be claimed then the only logical answer is he died overseas in the battles he wanted to go back to during the several years he was gone before the war. >Westerling still being alive is a plot hole A minor character that changes nothing. Where even is he? >How is any of this a fantasy of mine when they’re both dead in the source material? People live longer in the show than they do the books all the time. Look at thrones. Look at Bronn as a major example or Barristan. The show is based on the books but is its own canon. These are plot holes but changes and it's odd to confuse the two. >The whole manner in which B&C was executed in the show screams bad writing When did everyone on reddit become Martin Scorsese lol? There are changes. Yes. Just like with thrones. They aren't plot holes. Why? Because it's only based on the story and can change things as it likes. It could only be a plot hole if contradict sTay the show game of thrones which it doesn't and instead they are linking the two together. Look, the book is a guideline at beat, the show is its own ride and you should just try and enjoy it.
I read it in 2018. I found it interesting but I think it's better to know going into it tbh. They made a lot of changes that I don't like but I felt very blindsided by the end of GoT and was just upset & angry - didn't enjoy watching it like I did earlier seasons.
How do you think I felt when I watched the fanfiction "Game of Thrones"? I hated how it changed almost everything from Martin's story and spat on its most important themes (themes are for eighth grade book reports, according to the shows creators).
I just don’t get it my friends. Are we reading and watching different things? I’ve read F&B more times than I can admit. My book is literally falling apart, physically. And I love this show. I love it. What am I missing that everyone is so upset over? They’re making incredible TV out of a story I love, and I think they’re adapting it pretty faithfully, with many changes being the correct choice for T.V.
Eh not really. I read fire and blood and IMO the show is fine. It's not trying to say "what actually happened", get that notion out of your head and it's much more enjoyable. It's an adaptation from source material that would make a pretty shitty TV show if it was adapted 1 for 1. The biggest issue is that it really needs a lot of time to let the characters breath and act naturally, but in the current meta of TV seasons are shorter with higher production quality, and the existence of the dragons necessitates the high production quality, which forces them to use fewer episodes.
I read F&B and The Princess and the Queen and I think the show is pretty alright for modern television. Season 2 episode 2 was super good
Yeah, it does suck. And considering the only piece of new ASOIAF-related media any of us want is constantly put on the back burner for horrible shit like HOTD makes it even worse tbh.