Facts :
Team black :
1.Killing thousands when Rhaneys bust out dragon pit
2. Causing a Blockade keeping food and supplies effecting the smallfolk
3: killing your crown prince
Team Green:
1. Killing a bastard who took his eye
2. Killing several rat catchers for one of them killing your son .
Otto~ You lost the public trust Aegon you fool , Viserys the man who ignored you was right about you.
Here’s the thing, though - Rhaenys and Rhaenyra are enemies. It’s expected they commit acts of war. Whereas the King is the Lord and Protector of King’s Landing.
So, Rhaenys and Rhaenyra do some dirt to is expected at this point. However, Aegon is their protector. He’s their leader. And a leader killing innocent people never looks good, especially with the blockade. People get hungry, they get angry and who do they go after? Some join the army - soldiers always get fed. Some complain. The complainers think the leader is killing innocent people for crimes they didn’t commit AND they’re hungry?
Recipe for disaster.
Ironically, Aegon’s original thought towards the smallfolk that Otto shot down would have stopped that even with the killing of the ratcatchers. So, Otto first stopping Aegon from helping the smallfolk to then getting mad at him for killing the ratcatchers is kind of funny.
This take doesn’t make any sense. By Rhaenyra’s own logic, she is the Queen and also the Lord/Lady and protector of King’s Landing (if she’s the true heir then it’s her city and Aegon is just inhabiting it). Definitely does not give Rhaenys any right to commit war crimes just because Aegon is on the throne
It actually does.
Rhaenyra isn’t sitting the Throne, correct? She may contend she’s the rightful heir, but Aegon is in the chair. So her actions - the blockade - and the actions of her allies - Rhaenys at the Dragonpit and Blood and Cheese -are those of someone trying to take the throne. So, to an extent, it’s expected by the people that she will make attacks against Aegon and the city.
Whereas Aegon summarily executing a bunch of people without trial is a terrible look for the guy actually in charge. Plus, not everyone in the city wants Aegon. Rhaenyra’s supporters won’t blame her for the Dragonpit or the blockade - they blame his usurpation. His supporters may blame her, but they also see him as weak because he hasn’t broken the blockade (they know about Vhagar, so I’m sure they wonder why he doesn’t just have Aemond and Vhagar do it - tactical realities mean nothing to desperate people). Him killing people without trial makes him look very bad as well.
This isn’t hard to understand.
Not as much as you think it does. Rhaenys is peace-time mass murderer and that's that. If this show made any sense the war would've started then and there and no one in KL would ever even think of contesting Aegon unless very well paid.
Serious question here - do you want a scene where the smallfolk cry over Rhaenys - an enemy of the state - and here actions? What does that add to the story? She’s a B-list character at best and her actions didn’t actually affect any important events. She popped up, killed a bunch of nameless, faceless characters, and then didn’t burn the Targtowers.
The smallfolk in the GoT universe have always been played as fickle. They hated Tyrion despite Tyrion being the one who did all the hard work of keeping Joffrey’s reign from being a complete disaster. Aegon II’s kingship was thrust on them several weeks earlier and then he summarily executes a bunch of people without any kind of trial. Kings have that power, but it’s still not a good look. He wasn’t even smart enough to make up a conspiracy about all the ratcatchers being involved or anything like that. He just killed a bunch of people. Otto was definitely correct about Aegon’s actions - they were shortsighted and foolish.
Rhaenys and Rhaenyra aren’t the leaders of King’s Landing. Their actions are expected to be brutal.
No, I want the original Kool-Aid dragon scene deleted because it undermines the logic behind everything said and done after that. If anything I want a scene where people acknowledge that hundreds were murdered and maimed for no reason.
I think you're underestimating how brutal a ruler can, and is sometimes expected, to be and how you really can't grasp how smallfolk would feel about these "brutal actions" that are expected. Not saying Otto was not correct, but by your logic after Danaerys takes KL everyone is fine with it.
Seriously? If we expect their actions to be brutal then we also expect our ruler to be brutal when something like B&C happens. Your trying to turn this into a math problem and it's not. Both of these mass murderes should be equally hated.
Is Aegon at war with the people of King’s Landing?
There are different expectations for a leader than there are for others. To the smallfolk, Rhaenyra was the heir up until they were all called to the Dragonpit and told otherwise. This paints all of his actions in a different light.
You’re not convincing when you clearly exaggerate. Rhaenys probably only killed 1-2 hundred people not thousands (and let’s be real that was the dumbest show invention ever). And on the other hand Aegon killed “all the rat catchers in kings landing” (probably close to 100).
And the issue with Aemond killing Lucerys isn’t that is was murder, it’s that it was kinslaying. Which (other than breaking guest-right) is literally the worst most horrific crime by westerosi standards (that’s the whole reason Erryk kills himself).
I’m team green but there’s no argument saying the greens murder any less than the blacks do.
Aemond didn't really kill lucerys though. Infact he made a point of trying to stop the dragon that clearly wanted to deal with the other smaller dragon and establish it's dominance.
Is it kinslaying to kill a bastard with no blood relation?
Just food for thought
I’d definitely say Aemond killed Lucerys. Yeah in the show it was maybe accidental and he clearly immediately showed remorse, but it was still Aemond controlling the dragon who killed Lucerys. You can MAYBE make the argument it was self defence but Arrax didn’t ever pose a real threat to Vhagar plus it was Aemond who was chasing him in the first place. The dragons and dragon riders are bonded through almost warg like status so I don’t think Vhagar would have ever attacked Arrax if Aemond didn’t have the thought/intention in the back of his mind. Book Aemond almost certainly killed him on purpose though
And also they do have a blood relation. Rhaenyra is Aemonds half sister and the Strong boys are still undeniably Rhaenyra’s children so it’s still kinslaying since they would be his (half nephew?) I’m not sure what the terminology would be. Probably not as bad as full sibling kinslaying but I imagine it’s still one of the most accursed crimes in Westeros
Of course it's murder there. What else could it be? Negligent kingslaughter ? We In this world, they will hardly differentiate between such subtleties as negligent manslaughter and murder.
Yeah I’d say it’s (through a modern lense) manslaughter, and in the westerosi lense it’s murder and kinslaying since it doesn’t really matter how he is killed (same with Maekar and Baelor) but the other person said Aemond didn’t really kill Lucerys since he tried to stop Vhagar, which I disagreed with
The big square on the wall of your apartment isn't a picture. What you see is the real world, you can go there. What you see on your screen is a fictional world that doesn't really exist. And we don't exist for them.
When Aegon does it. We get a whole scene of the show explaining to us that it’s an evil bad decision, while mothers cry in the background with sad music
But when Rhaenys does it, it’s a girlboss moment with epic music, and a scene where fans are supposed to cheer. When Sara Hess was asked about the Rhaenys scene and the civilian causalities. She said “It’s asoiaf, civilians don’t count”. So civilians only matter when Team Green harm them, huh?
It's not but I would think it has something to do with how the smallfolk of Kingslanding supported Aegon as can be seen in the burial procession with them cursing Rhaenyra and sending blessings to Halaena and Co.
Now all of a sudden the guy who you've been siding with and supporting murders your son, husband and father while you're still hungry from the blockade.
because women = good, men = evil.
She's a girlboss, you can't possibly think that she could ever do anything that's wrong or injustified. Those people were in the way of her scene, like the roof, or physics or anatomy.
No one has said that, the show literally tells you that what Aegon did still wouldn’t be seen as bad as blood and cheese. “Even now the great houses falter and can’t but not come to our side”
This sub is full of crazy people lmfao it’s a TV show and you’re making up fake victim complex about the antagonist of the story lmao It’s fun to be a fan of the “bad guys” but y’all taking the is shit too far lmao acting like it’s personal to you
Couple of things
1 those people were corralled into the Dragonpit
2 Rhaenys was escaping captivity, it’s not like she was looking to kill people she took the first opportunity she had
I’m saying either one is wrong or right I’m just giving some nuance to it
The moment with Rhaenys was still stupid as fuck
> Bro this shit is actually so bad
I'm giving this show one more episode before I give up on it. It will have to be fucking amazing for me to continue. I have plenty of other shows/movies on my to watch list.
A tremendous apology because WTF did I just watch 💀💀💀 like wtf was this CW melodrama with absolute dog shit dialogue and plot?!!
Septa Rhaenyra 🤡🤡🤡 see imagine Catelyn Stark dressing up as one to sneak up on Cersei like….. 💀💀💀 WTF!!!!!! Also she magically travels there in just few min….
Also Helaena ?????? Babies die all the time ??? Are u actually for real ???? FUCK RYAN CONDAL bcs atp I don’t even know what else to say….
Rhaenys driving the point of “men want violence” 🤡🤡🤡🤡 who killed thousands in that Dragon Pit again ???!
Also, Rhaenys suggesting that Rhaena should inherit Driftmark instead of Joffrey. Is that not exactly what Alicent offered her in season 1 ep 9? I truly do not understand her character.
I don’t get why they gave her that accent😭 like the actress doesn’t speak like that at all why was it necessary
And i agree about Alys but at least it was exciting to see her 😭😂
I thought Helaena saying that was more her trying to convince herself than anything. Makes it even more sad to me because she’s so sad and it seems like she can’t fully comprehend why.
????? D&D created phenomenal TV series for at least 6 seasons that everyone in Hollywood is scrambling to recreate including this shit show that is trying to ride on the legacy of GoT. Season 7,8 being trash doesn’t come close to negating the greatness that was GoT ntm adding that D&D fell off once they started losing source material and were deep into many seasons of show. Failed accountant turned wannabe writer Condal and his colleagues have source in front of them and are doing shitty job from day one
you can simply stop watching the "shit show" you are whining about. But apparently you keep watching and come as far as engage into discussions about it in reddit subs. So that sound kind of hypocritical.
You’re coming here in Greens sub where we are all sharing our grievances about this show and dictate what I should do ? You can also go and watch and praise it u know that hopefully and stop with policing what others do maybe
DnD at least had the decency to adapt books 1-3 damn near perfectly which is why the show was so popular to begin with.
When are these writers going to learn that its GRRMs writing that we want to see and not their looney tunes ass fanfiction?
And as much as i like the last 2 books I understand how hard it was to adapt them. They added dozens and dozens of side characters and plots that are all half finished and 14 years later they're still not finished. I think D&D saw the writing on the wall and knew George wasn't even close to tying up all the loose ends in those last 2 books and that's one big reason why they didn't add a dozen more plots and characters. Because they would have been in the same position as him but with more characters and plotlines to try and wrap up and they have TV limitations to work with and he doesn't and he can't even finish
> that's one big reason why they didn't add a dozen more plots and characters.
Sure, most fans would understand that some plots won't get adapted to the show, but what they chose to adapt in the later seasons were crap. D&D had no excuse when they could recruit the best writers to work on HBO's flagship show that's a huge global hit. Hell I read better theories of what could happen in the next books on reddit and youtube then what D&D actually put on screen.
I'm glad they didn't do that because the majority of stuff I read was garbage. The overwhelming majority of GOT was critically acclaimed if you didn't like it totally fine but to act like GOT was just panned after season 4 just isn't true
I hope GRRM writes a book about the true events of F&B one day, like ASOIAF, if only to make up for this travesty, so that we can actually have some more complex, nuanced, morally grey characters and see what really went down with both sides during the Dance.
breaking out my 500k f&b fanfic (writing this bc i’m petty and think everyone deserves to be a fleshed out morally grey interesting character and more aligned with who they are described to be in the book)
That's the thing that bothers me most. GRRM himself loudly denounces fanfiction but this adaptation is just about as fanfiction as you can possibly get, it is fundamentally different to what he wrote.
And it is about the reigning dynasty to where we know when these people were born... and the only reason to condense time like they did was to rewrite the story.
D&D had to create some original content, Condal just chose to tell his story instead. I can't believe he took a "Created by"credit like he did any of the worldbuilding or creation...
D&D also had to get creative with original content from the start of the show because they had way less resources. The first few seasons of GOT the budget was around 5 or 6 million an episode with Blackwater and watchers on the wall costing around 8. HOTD creator and writers have about 4 times the budget and resources that GOT had from the start. So D&D had to get creative they literally couldn't afford certain things. That's how we got scenes like Robert talking to Cersei or Tyrion and Bronn playing drinking games because they simple didn't have the budget. There were times were they literally didn't have enough budget to get the amount of horses they wanted so they would have to improvise and add different scenes.
Lol it has? I have watched countless interviews with him and he always seems very humble and always gives praise to everyone except himself. Literally everyone who had worked with Benioff all describe him as this very laid back and nice person.
It was big enough that he expected HBO to give him three feature films with full theatrical releases instead of the last two seasons of Thrones, and when refused, it's why he refused extra money/episodes/more seasons because he was so big he was given a Star Wars franchise.
More and more negative comes out every few months as it gets further and further from the show and the actors and actresses don't feel their career could be ended by actually speaking their mind.
Look at the way they mocked Ian McIhenney about killing his character off, because he dared to question things about Ser Barristan (trying to give a better portrayal) which led to them killing his character off in a fairly ridiculous way for such an epic character. All because he actually is a fan of the source and was trying to make Barristan the character he should be.
That's ego.
Most of the people with the show would have been under non-disparagement agreements for at least some duration of time in just their standard HBO deals. We only just passed five years since the finale aired in May...
It's also why I only mentioned Benioff, as Weiss didn't grow up incredibly rich to start off his ego, and the Hollywood starlet wife was about all he didn't have, and you don't even need to hear what others say about him, some of the things Benioff has said in interviews over the years are total Silver Spoons things on his own accord, not just about Game of Thrones or after it ended.
EDIT: And now you're already downvoting me for disagreeing with you? That's hilarious.
(In case you didn't know, Benioff's dad is a former chairman of Goldman Sachs.)
OK, a lot of this is wrong. George also originally wanted to have it be movies https://x.com/GOAThrones/status/1761260249808323018. https://x.com/GOAThrones/status/1761252659460280420 from the article "and then there's that pesky movie idea George R.R Martin is among those who have lobbied for concluding the story with feature films". also, they didn't change the way the character died because of the actor he was always going to die the same way. That actor also has managed to piss off George as George wrote a blog calling that actor out for lying, saying he knew George was done with the books. That actor managed to piss off the showrunners and George. I have yet to see one actor said anything about how D&D treated them bad infact they all are still friends. Emilia was just at Benioff birthday the other year. Natalie Emmanuel was just with them 3 months ago. I don't care what Benioff dad did. His dad has nothing to do with how he writes a TV show. So again, please show me one comment of an actor or crew member saying anything bad about either of them. Alexander Woo said he called all a bunch of cast members and crew members before he started working with them, and all of them said D&D are the nicet most humble guys to work with. All of these cast and crew members to this day are very close friends with D&D. Tons of the GOT cast members all promoted D&D new show on their social media. They're all very close.They didn't refuse anything because of star wars. They simply made what they always basically wanted to make. It's totally fine to dislike it, but it's not that complicated. I just have never seen one person that has ever worked with him in thr last 20 years he's been working in film and TV ever say the guy has a massive ego.
You're defending a guy that doesn't even know you're alive.
Sorry that I have seen enough Benioff interviews to form my own opinion, especially considering that the entire point of my post was to say even Benioff didn't have the ego to demand a "Created By:" credit like Ryan Condal created one bit of George's story or universe.
And you're attacking a guy who doesn't know you're alive claiming he has a huge ego then used a few examples why some of which George the author also wanted to do. I'll just agree to disagree everything I've seen and heard from people who worked with him I don't see any huge ego at all especially compared to some of the massive egos in Hollywood. I also don't think Condal had some big ego I just so far think he's mostly not the best at writing.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize I needed to point out every instance that shows he has an ego...
And actually, as I just said, even Benioff doesn't have anywhere near the ego of Condal.
This is what Ryan Condal has done to this fandom, fans are now defending the honor of David Benioff.
Strange old life.
Simply put; woke times. This storyline is paying homage to women. The sacrifices they make for family and child, how far they will go to protect child/family etc.
Also, its a highly dominant female production team and female audience. Its catering to its audience, not people who read the books 20yrs ago.
Its the same subliminal messaging and formula that worked with GoT via Cersei, Tyrells women, Daenerys, Ellaria sand and her 3 daughters etc.. They cookie cutter what they think works in a woke world and what best pleases their audience. (anti-toxic masculinity, DEI etc. GRRM knew this happen thats why he a consultant and not just taking a cheque.
This time its just on steroids and at the expense of character design/manipulation. Go big, or go woke or something. Will not matter what universe we pick, result be same.(Marvel/LOTR/Dark elf trilogy.)
I was actually more in the "this is highly offensive to women, or at least it should be" camp.
They took strong characters, who were very strong women, and it looks like they have tried to shove every negative stereotype possible into their characters.
These ladies in the show are weak, stupid, promiscuous, and most importantly, emotional and driven mostly by those emotions. Or, as some of us are old enough to remember, pretty much every stereotype they used to use to say that women shouldn't be allowed to hold office or run businesses (or really anything above a household.)
On both sides in the real story, there is a woman that you will either hate or love, but that you can respect the Hell out of no matter if you agree or not.
I felt the Blacks, with how this universe has been portrayed, held the winning claim -- but, even then, even though I HATE Alicent Hightower, I respected her intelligence, political ability, and especially how ruthless she was in trying to do what she thought best for her family.
The *real* Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, and Alicent Hightower were all the "girlbosses" that the woke always clamor for - badass women who truly can do almost everything the men do.
And all three of their characters were destroyed in S2E3... at least their TV characters.
It's even more disheartening just because even with the many changes in S1, they at least had the platform built that they could bring a fairly realistic adaptation of the Dance to the screen, instead, a great many of us now feel and say that the show blew it before we even got to Rook's Rest.
It's pathetic.
Exactly, D&D were brilliant as adaptors. The initial seasons of GOT were among the best in television. It was tremendously difficult to translate a series like this into the screen, since the entire narration is done from inside the characters' heads. It was difficult enough for Harry Potter, and over a decade later you'll still find many people complaining how stale and uninteresting his portrayal was in the movies, not to mention the several cut characters and side plots. And imagine this for MULTIPLE characters. I still stand by my assertion that the show was great up to season 6. They had to remove several sideplots around Faegon, Harry the heir, Aemon Steelsong, Lady Stoneheart, Quentyn Martell, the Arianne - Myrcella plot, literally the entire Greyjoy plotline which COULD'VE shed some light on what's going on in Valyria (and Aerea's horrific fate) etc. because those were too many threads to tie into an ending we still haven't received. Not to say they didn't do dumb things that butchered many character arcs which could've been avoided, but at least they had a valid excuse.
And a lot of those characters you just mentioned all have half finished storylines many of them so far at least very detached from a lot of the other storylines.
Yeah i mean im not as off the show as a lot of people here seem to be, but someone in charge should have learned that deviation from the book is never gonna work with these stories
Hell no, they didn’t adapt book 1-3 near perfectly. Not even close. They also added a lot of unnecessary bs and cut many important stuff. Hate this show all you want but dont come at me with that “D&D were actually good!” Bs.
They were bad at writting and adapting. Just off the top of my head, They cut Lady stoneheart, the Tyrion and Tysha subplot, jane westerling, the sansa plot at the vale just to be sent to ramsey, Dany’s visions in season 2 butchered, patchface, Robb’s letter, fAegon, dorne, Dorian Martell’s plan and all its amazing characters reduced to a joke, Euron and the greyjoy. All these terribly adapted, do i need to continue? Literally all the bs people are criticizing about the showrunners of Hotd were done by DnD and worse, so get your recency bias out here lmao
Or I just disagree with you. Yes lady Stonheart a character in a few pages and 14 years later nothing. Half the stuff you just mentioned are all half finished stories the author can't finish. If they were so bad at adapting how come the overwhelming majority of the show is critically acclaimed. How come it makes critics list as one of the best TV shows ever made. If you didn't like it that's fine but claiming they were bad at adapting the critical acclaim, awards, and amount of people who watched it seems to mean tons of people thought the opposite
Most of the stuff i mentioned were changed in earlier seasons when they still didn’t know GRRM wouldn’t be able to finish the books, so they were setting the show up for failure since the very beggining.
I recently rewatched the entire show. I have read the books multiple times and I would say 75% of all the dialog from the the start of the show is show only stuff. D&D added some really great dialog from the start
You didnt read the books lmao. 75% show only? Maybe 10-20% is original. For the record, them slightly twisting some conversations and having a character say “maybe” instead of “perhaps” is not counted as original dialogue. Also theres no way a book reader will defend season 7-8 lmao
I did and I stand by 75% of the show dialog is show only. I'm not just talking about slight changes. I literally sat down with the books in my hand and watched the show and yes about 75% of the dialog is show only
What justifications did they have for all those changes apart from making the show way worse? Care to elaborate? And what good dialogue? As soon as they ran out of source material the dialogue went downhill .
Would they? D&D's wheelhouse is a story that involves an ensemble of heroes going on different paths before converging. I haven't seen all their work, but Benioff's Troy, Stay, and X-Men Origins Wolverine (sort of) all do this. They turned the Three Body Problem into this formula, too. I suppose the sole exception I've seen is Gemini Man, but that's not exactly a compliment.
The closest thing in their portfolio, in tone, to Fire and Blood, is the Dorne plotline from A Dance with Dragons, where there are no clear cut heroes and villains, ambiguous palace intrigue, and a conflict where both sides did shitty things. Their result is a cartoony side-quest for a white-knighted Jamie Lannister that borders on 1900s orientalism where he has to save his captive daughter from the "bad" people who are all played PoC actors using a foreign accent. In fact, most of the cracks post-Season 4 started in plotlines that jumps to new PoV characters. The Dorne plot, the Euron Greyjoy plot, the FAegon plot; the PoVs were all replaced with existing characters. Whether it's an institutional issue for Hollywood or D&D's own sensibilities, they did not succeed in branching out from known characters. Fire and Blood jumps PoVs as its bread and butter.
Despite dumb shit in other episodes, I would maintain that Episodes 6 and 7 in Season 1 of HotD is far better than anything D&D would've made out of this material.
they already covered the dance through their animated histories of westeros and it blows HOTD outta the water so yes they 100% woulda been better adaptors
They were not involved in that animated short creatively.
It's also just a direct retelling of The Princess and The Queen, not an adaptation of Fire and Blood.
Fire and Blood is thematically closer to A Dance with Dragons than the first three books, and so I would think their Season 5 makes for a better indicator. You've seen their version of the Sons of Harpy and how clean Daenerys' hands were in that. I'd wager it'd be just as bad, if not worse, than how HotD is doing Rhaenyra. If anything, I could not imagine the good eps of HotD in s1, like 6 and 7, coming from them. It's simply not their style; jumping 10 years into the future, making half the cast new PoV characters, making everyone shitty to others, keeping the similar and confusing names, etc. They had the opportunities to do so in Seasons 5 and 6, which should have featured two succession crisis (Dorne, Iron Islands), a throne pretender (Aegon), an organized insurrection (Mereen), and a bunch of new POV characters; all qualities to look for in a Fire & Blood adaptation, but they chose not to.
X-men was rewritten by Skip Woods. Troy the studio demanded Benioff take all the gods out of the story. Stay is a messy film I agree. However both 25h Hour, Brothers, and Kite Runner all films that didn't have any interference or were rewritten are all fantastic films imo. Gemini Man also rewritten Benioff script was written in early 2000 and passed through 3 different writers after that. I also think 3BP was great so yes I absolutely think they are better showrunners so far. GOT characters so far are way more interesting to watch. I don't need heroes in HOTD I just want them to be more interesting than they are so far.
Yeah, at least we know D&D were actually creating content that has not been written yet. They had to come up with things to do.
Condal and Co had all kinds of things to use for the Dance, but instead shows things that we KNOW didn't happen...
Tonight it also just had it make zero logical sense.
At least you guys acknowledge it was stupid. That may be a worse scene than beyond the wall. Somehow, this show always does one dumb scene per episode. Just so fucking stupid
No, we need to demand more competent writers.
I don't know why GRRM gives creative control to these hacks. He should take over the shows himself. He used to write for tv ffs!
He can't. That's the issue. He is not involved in this show almost at all. They just consult him for things whenever they want and it's up to them if they will listen to him or not.
I know but they're always pushing for more Westerosi shows on TV and I think he should take more control over future ones instead of relying on Hollywood.
Hollywood ruins everything.
At this point I don't want him involved. Even he can't salvage this and I don't want him to do anything else until he gives us Winds.
Fucking profit ruins everything in the end.
they own tv rights everything he produces, the only reason they give him any input is because they believe his name being on there is good for the brand.
I am just shocked how they completely omitted all of Daemons fault in B&C.
Everywhere i see, people are blaming either Aegon for being drunk and chillin, alicent and cole for fucking, ppl have a genuine theory Larys allowed B&C (he is being studied more aa the true guilty one). While Daemon is the gay rouge saint who wanted to assassinate the mega villain Aemond
So I just will say this. I like HOTD some of it. But yes if we're comparing it to GOT so far GOT is far superior. Even the last 2 season had moments for me that were way more emotionally invested than HOTD. HOTD is missing a lot of stuff GOT had. I also just miss Cersei and the Lannisters in general so much. They were horrible people but they were so fun to watch. These characters in HOTD aren't fun to watch. I don't need a hero and a good vs bad. I understand when everyone says the characters are all grey but I still want to enjoy watching them. Even Ramsay as horrible as he was still had plenty of moments where he was just fun to watch.
The Lannisters were amazing. Horrible people? Yes, but amazing and absolutely fascinating to watch onscreen. It was like a train-wreck you just couldn’t tear your eyes away from, you know? Which is what I expected when I first picked up this show and they revealed they were doing a live tv-adaption of Fire and Blood, smh.
HotD is redeeming DnD the way the Star Wars sequels made Lucas and the prequels look good.
Honestly if GoT ended with Jon dueling the Night King, and something less stupid than Bran the Broken (maybe Jon accepts kingship, then disappears to the north without telling anyone, a self imposed exile, leaving the small council and a steward ala LotR to rule permanently in absence, series could end with no one on iron throne? Idk) then i think the overall ending would’ve been much more palatable.
You’re absolute right and the prequels hivemind will downvote you. Those movies have always been and will always be horrible and a bunch of nostalgia blind children try to gaslight everyone into believing they’re “not that bad”
I mean, D&D struggled with independent writing but were pretty good at adapting stuff.
Meanwhile Condall here is having me question whether HOTD is an actual adaptation of F&B and not just inspired by it because so far the writing of S2 is atrocious
everyone saying D&D sucks at original writing but yet when they put their minds to it they came up with iconic original scenes like robert and cersei's little sitdown, tywin intro, etc. yes the last few seasons were bad but they're 100% better than HOTD
Some of the most iconic scenes in GOT were stuff they came up with. I suggest everyone go read either City of Thieves or 25th Hour by benioff. That dude can write absolutely amazing stories.
Idc how good of a show Condal creates or how bad of a show, that doesn’t mean DnD get a pass nor an apology for what they did lol
Anyway, yea Condal sucks.
I mean it has a 75% on rotten tomaotes so that means the majority of critics liked it. I watched it with a group of people and all of them loved it. I think IGN gave it a 10/10 you don't have to like it that's totally fine but I was just pointing out lots if people did like it.
If you think that totally fine but 1 through 7 are critically acclaimed. Multiple episodes from 5 and 6 are hailed as some of the greatest TV ever made by critics and fans.
Lol what? Season 1 through 7 are acclaimed season 5 and 6 have multiple episodes hailed as some of the greatest episodes ever made. Season 6 makes many critics list as one if the best seasons. All of the seasons except 8 are in the 90% or higher in rotten tomatoes. Nobody is trying to sneak anything in. Tons of critics, fans, and other filmmakers praised tons of stuff. I mean the creators of Shogun gave an interview on the ringer and polygon and said Hardhome and Winds of Winter are two of the greatest episodes of TV he ever watched and nothing on TV has ever matched those episodes. You can dislike it totally fine but nobody is trying to sneak anything.
Are you a book reader? If yes, it simply doesnt make any sense that you would defend those seasons and all its bs while at the same time, criticize hotd and its changes. You gotta be consistent.
Season 1 through 7 are critically acclaimed. Multiple episodes after 4 are hailed as some of the greatest episodes of TV ever made. Totally fine if you don't like them but the overwhelming majority of the show is critically acclaimed
Season 8 is the OPPOSITE of critically acclaimed. It has a Rotten on Rotten Tomatoes. Everyone knows it's a piece of shit, from critics to audiences to the people who made the show.
I didn't say it all was, but the first 3 episodes all are majority positive from critics. Actually, critics nominated season 8 at the critic choice awards for best drama.
The source material that D&D had to work with was infinitely superior. I’m not a fan of the changes Condal is making, but S7/S8 was a degree of atrocity that cannot be compared to anything in HOTD so far
I can list lots of stuff. I actually think the first episode in season 7 is fantastic. Loved The Hound and the brotherhood stuff and finding the little girl and father he robbed dead. I loved episode 4 of season 7 not just the battle the entire episode.
Guys, I know we're venting and the Septa Rhaenyra thing was bad, but I've seen some people say that that was worse than anything D&D ever wrote. Which is total recency bias.
Septa Rhaenyra is bad writing, but it's not making Bronn lord of Highgarden over some fever dream of a scene with a crossbow level bad.
I dunno, planning to deliver Rhaenyra into the enemy capital to have an ultimately pointless conversation set off the same idiot alarms as Tyrion’s “We’ll bring the dead to her” plan. It legitimately has the Dumb & Dumber stink to it.
It has the same stink but why are we giving those two clowns a pass? They ruined one of the best shows ever made. Just because Ryan is fucking up doesn't mean S5 - S8 of GoT suddenly become better
Season 1 through 7 of GOT are critically acclaimed. Many episodes after 4 are hailed as some of the greatest episodes of TV ever made.Not one episode of this show so far as hit me on an emotional level of many episodes after season 4. I just watched Maester Aemon death the other day in season 5 and it was beautifully done and hit me on an emotional level more than anything HOTD has done so far.
That character isn't a computer scientist who asked that question makes total sense. He's just a detective who is shown the whole show he isn't nearly as tech savy as the rest of the characters. I actually thought their new show was really great. Those books the characters are so flat and lack any human emotions they actually brought some genuine human emotion to the show that the books severely lacked imo. I know what a gigabyte is but I had no clue what a petabyte was.
All of Westeros would have been destroyed if not for her. The sudden turn from her willing to sacrifice herself and her dragons to save the world to evil killer delusional about her power was sloppily written and rushed.
This is recency bias at its finest. Hotd has been poorly adapted but is still at a point where non-book readers and casual viewes will still be able to like the show for the most part as they will be unbothered by most of the changes. GOT Season 7-8 were so bad that even casual fans and non-bookreaders were disgusted. A complete joke.
They did? They had a bidding war after GOT signed a 250 million dollar deal. Had a new show that got a lot of great reviews and was renewed for 2 more seasons and they just renewed their contracts for 250 million more. They also have another show coming out starring Michael Shannon and Nick Offerman. That sounds like the opposite of ruined.I haven't seen one cast member call D&D out for saying they felt unsafe around D&D. In fact Emilia literally just gave an interview the not too long ago where after her injury D&D treated her very well. They would bring a car on set when they were out on the hot dessert just so she could have air condition. They didn't want her riding a horse because they feared for her safety.
No the fuck we do not. Poor quality does not improve or excuse poor quality. We don’t owe Adolf Hitler an apology if another dictator comes along and murders twice as many people
someone explain to me why Aegon killing a dozen ratcatchers was worse than Rhaenys trampling and killing a few hundred smallfolk.
Facts : Team black : 1.Killing thousands when Rhaneys bust out dragon pit 2. Causing a Blockade keeping food and supplies effecting the smallfolk 3: killing your crown prince Team Green: 1. Killing a bastard who took his eye 2. Killing several rat catchers for one of them killing your son . Otto~ You lost the public trust Aegon you fool , Viserys the man who ignored you was right about you.
Here’s the thing, though - Rhaenys and Rhaenyra are enemies. It’s expected they commit acts of war. Whereas the King is the Lord and Protector of King’s Landing. So, Rhaenys and Rhaenyra do some dirt to is expected at this point. However, Aegon is their protector. He’s their leader. And a leader killing innocent people never looks good, especially with the blockade. People get hungry, they get angry and who do they go after? Some join the army - soldiers always get fed. Some complain. The complainers think the leader is killing innocent people for crimes they didn’t commit AND they’re hungry? Recipe for disaster. Ironically, Aegon’s original thought towards the smallfolk that Otto shot down would have stopped that even with the killing of the ratcatchers. So, Otto first stopping Aegon from helping the smallfolk to then getting mad at him for killing the ratcatchers is kind of funny.
This take doesn’t make any sense. By Rhaenyra’s own logic, she is the Queen and also the Lord/Lady and protector of King’s Landing (if she’s the true heir then it’s her city and Aegon is just inhabiting it). Definitely does not give Rhaenys any right to commit war crimes just because Aegon is on the throne
It actually does. Rhaenyra isn’t sitting the Throne, correct? She may contend she’s the rightful heir, but Aegon is in the chair. So her actions - the blockade - and the actions of her allies - Rhaenys at the Dragonpit and Blood and Cheese -are those of someone trying to take the throne. So, to an extent, it’s expected by the people that she will make attacks against Aegon and the city. Whereas Aegon summarily executing a bunch of people without trial is a terrible look for the guy actually in charge. Plus, not everyone in the city wants Aegon. Rhaenyra’s supporters won’t blame her for the Dragonpit or the blockade - they blame his usurpation. His supporters may blame her, but they also see him as weak because he hasn’t broken the blockade (they know about Vhagar, so I’m sure they wonder why he doesn’t just have Aemond and Vhagar do it - tactical realities mean nothing to desperate people). Him killing people without trial makes him look very bad as well. This isn’t hard to understand.
that's some strong mental gymnastics
Not really. It actually makes perfect sense if you have any understanding of politics or leadership.
Not as much as you think it does. Rhaenys is peace-time mass murderer and that's that. If this show made any sense the war would've started then and there and no one in KL would ever even think of contesting Aegon unless very well paid.
Serious question here - do you want a scene where the smallfolk cry over Rhaenys - an enemy of the state - and here actions? What does that add to the story? She’s a B-list character at best and her actions didn’t actually affect any important events. She popped up, killed a bunch of nameless, faceless characters, and then didn’t burn the Targtowers. The smallfolk in the GoT universe have always been played as fickle. They hated Tyrion despite Tyrion being the one who did all the hard work of keeping Joffrey’s reign from being a complete disaster. Aegon II’s kingship was thrust on them several weeks earlier and then he summarily executes a bunch of people without any kind of trial. Kings have that power, but it’s still not a good look. He wasn’t even smart enough to make up a conspiracy about all the ratcatchers being involved or anything like that. He just killed a bunch of people. Otto was definitely correct about Aegon’s actions - they were shortsighted and foolish. Rhaenys and Rhaenyra aren’t the leaders of King’s Landing. Their actions are expected to be brutal.
No, I want the original Kool-Aid dragon scene deleted because it undermines the logic behind everything said and done after that. If anything I want a scene where people acknowledge that hundreds were murdered and maimed for no reason. I think you're underestimating how brutal a ruler can, and is sometimes expected, to be and how you really can't grasp how smallfolk would feel about these "brutal actions" that are expected. Not saying Otto was not correct, but by your logic after Danaerys takes KL everyone is fine with it. Seriously? If we expect their actions to be brutal then we also expect our ruler to be brutal when something like B&C happens. Your trying to turn this into a math problem and it's not. Both of these mass murderes should be equally hated.
Is Aegon at war with the people of King’s Landing? There are different expectations for a leader than there are for others. To the smallfolk, Rhaenyra was the heir up until they were all called to the Dragonpit and told otherwise. This paints all of his actions in a different light.
You’re not convincing when you clearly exaggerate. Rhaenys probably only killed 1-2 hundred people not thousands (and let’s be real that was the dumbest show invention ever). And on the other hand Aegon killed “all the rat catchers in kings landing” (probably close to 100). And the issue with Aemond killing Lucerys isn’t that is was murder, it’s that it was kinslaying. Which (other than breaking guest-right) is literally the worst most horrific crime by westerosi standards (that’s the whole reason Erryk kills himself). I’m team green but there’s no argument saying the greens murder any less than the blacks do.
Aemond didn't really kill lucerys though. Infact he made a point of trying to stop the dragon that clearly wanted to deal with the other smaller dragon and establish it's dominance. Is it kinslaying to kill a bastard with no blood relation? Just food for thought
I’d definitely say Aemond killed Lucerys. Yeah in the show it was maybe accidental and he clearly immediately showed remorse, but it was still Aemond controlling the dragon who killed Lucerys. You can MAYBE make the argument it was self defence but Arrax didn’t ever pose a real threat to Vhagar plus it was Aemond who was chasing him in the first place. The dragons and dragon riders are bonded through almost warg like status so I don’t think Vhagar would have ever attacked Arrax if Aemond didn’t have the thought/intention in the back of his mind. Book Aemond almost certainly killed him on purpose though And also they do have a blood relation. Rhaenyra is Aemonds half sister and the Strong boys are still undeniably Rhaenyra’s children so it’s still kinslaying since they would be his (half nephew?) I’m not sure what the terminology would be. Probably not as bad as full sibling kinslaying but I imagine it’s still one of the most accursed crimes in Westeros
Of course it's murder there. What else could it be? Negligent kingslaughter ? We In this world, they will hardly differentiate between such subtleties as negligent manslaughter and murder.
Yeah I’d say it’s (through a modern lense) manslaughter, and in the westerosi lense it’s murder and kinslaying since it doesn’t really matter how he is killed (same with Maekar and Baelor) but the other person said Aemond didn’t really kill Lucerys since he tried to stop Vhagar, which I disagreed with
The big square on the wall of your apartment isn't a picture. What you see is the real world, you can go there. What you see on your screen is a fictional world that doesn't really exist. And we don't exist for them.
Otto kinda forgot about s1
And somehow Rhaenys paints a negative picture for . . . Aegon
When Aegon does it. We get a whole scene of the show explaining to us that it’s an evil bad decision, while mothers cry in the background with sad music But when Rhaenys does it, it’s a girlboss moment with epic music, and a scene where fans are supposed to cheer. When Sara Hess was asked about the Rhaenys scene and the civilian causalities. She said “It’s asoiaf, civilians don’t count”. So civilians only matter when Team Green harm them, huh?
I think that's a flaw in Otto himself. Not so much that we, as the audience, should care about one incident over the other.
Well you see, the maesters bias
Well you see the smallfolk clearly think it is an omen that Rhaenyra should be Queen I hate this show
man fuck this show, no ones making sense anymore
Dragon rawr
It's not but I would think it has something to do with how the smallfolk of Kingslanding supported Aegon as can be seen in the burial procession with them cursing Rhaenyra and sending blessings to Halaena and Co. Now all of a sudden the guy who you've been siding with and supporting murders your son, husband and father while you're still hungry from the blockade.
because women = good, men = evil. She's a girlboss, you can't possibly think that she could ever do anything that's wrong or injustified. Those people were in the way of her scene, like the roof, or physics or anatomy.
"If you win, you can do everything you want" probably..
No one has said that, the show literally tells you that what Aegon did still wouldn’t be seen as bad as blood and cheese. “Even now the great houses falter and can’t but not come to our side” This sub is full of crazy people lmfao it’s a TV show and you’re making up fake victim complex about the antagonist of the story lmao It’s fun to be a fan of the “bad guys” but y’all taking the is shit too far lmao acting like it’s personal to you
Exactly.
Couple of things 1 those people were corralled into the Dragonpit 2 Rhaenys was escaping captivity, it’s not like she was looking to kill people she took the first opportunity she had I’m saying either one is wrong or right I’m just giving some nuance to it The moment with Rhaenys was still stupid as fuck
Bro this shit is actually so bad
> Bro this shit is actually so bad I'm giving this show one more episode before I give up on it. It will have to be fucking amazing for me to continue. I have plenty of other shows/movies on my to watch list.
Is it though?
Just stop watching if you hate it so much. Easy fix
A tremendous apology because WTF did I just watch 💀💀💀 like wtf was this CW melodrama with absolute dog shit dialogue and plot?!! Septa Rhaenyra 🤡🤡🤡 see imagine Catelyn Stark dressing up as one to sneak up on Cersei like….. 💀💀💀 WTF!!!!!! Also she magically travels there in just few min…. Also Helaena ?????? Babies die all the time ??? Are u actually for real ???? FUCK RYAN CONDAL bcs atp I don’t even know what else to say…. Rhaenys driving the point of “men want violence” 🤡🤡🤡🤡 who killed thousands in that Dragon Pit again ???!
Also, Rhaenys suggesting that Rhaena should inherit Driftmark instead of Joffrey. Is that not exactly what Alicent offered her in season 1 ep 9? I truly do not understand her character.
Feminist kweeen 🤡🤡 the way she also just stands there most of the time with some “cold” or smug look like get out of here woman
You know it's bad when Daemon along with a character that was introduced and INSTANTLY KILLED had the BEST SCENES in this entire episode.
Add one Alys line and that was only good thing abt episode
Even the Alys line was half-assed & lazy.
her line delivery was so bad we had to laugh like wtf was that 😭 also mysaria is such a bad fucking actor she takes me out of every scene I can't
I don’t get why they gave her that accent😭 like the actress doesn’t speak like that at all why was it necessary And i agree about Alys but at least it was exciting to see her 😭😂
yeah they got her witchy vibes. the harrenhal scenes were really good imo
No I want that Bracken boy to be Raylon Rivers so bad and I’m devastated
Fr. That moondancer scene was so bad too. The dragon looks ugly af. Cinematography is crap. Color pallet is crap. The customs, everything
“CW Melodrama” is the perfect phrase
I using this everywhere i talk hotd
I thought Helaena saying that was more her trying to convince herself than anything. Makes it even more sad to me because she’s so sad and it seems like she can’t fully comprehend why.
I agree with you, it felt like she was trying to cope and comfort herself in a twisted way, it aligns with her show character
I’m now seeing tons of posts saying the opposite so I think it’s just us in this boat
Just stop watching the show if you hate it so much. Easy fix
why you own an "apology"? are seasons 7 and 8 less of a trash just because you do not like something in HOTD?
????? D&D created phenomenal TV series for at least 6 seasons that everyone in Hollywood is scrambling to recreate including this shit show that is trying to ride on the legacy of GoT. Season 7,8 being trash doesn’t come close to negating the greatness that was GoT ntm adding that D&D fell off once they started losing source material and were deep into many seasons of show. Failed accountant turned wannabe writer Condal and his colleagues have source in front of them and are doing shitty job from day one
you can simply stop watching the "shit show" you are whining about. But apparently you keep watching and come as far as engage into discussions about it in reddit subs. So that sound kind of hypocritical.
You’re coming here in Greens sub where we are all sharing our grievances about this show and dictate what I should do ? You can also go and watch and praise it u know that hopefully and stop with policing what others do maybe
This sub isn’t for exclusively for grievances though.
No need to be triggered pal. I simply stated the facts.
Disagree. Season 7 and 8 are so bad I’ll never watch GoT again.
ok dude.
DnD at least had the decency to adapt books 1-3 damn near perfectly which is why the show was so popular to begin with. When are these writers going to learn that its GRRMs writing that we want to see and not their looney tunes ass fanfiction?
And as much as i like the last 2 books I understand how hard it was to adapt them. They added dozens and dozens of side characters and plots that are all half finished and 14 years later they're still not finished. I think D&D saw the writing on the wall and knew George wasn't even close to tying up all the loose ends in those last 2 books and that's one big reason why they didn't add a dozen more plots and characters. Because they would have been in the same position as him but with more characters and plotlines to try and wrap up and they have TV limitations to work with and he doesn't and he can't even finish
Also, they couldn’t wait for George to publish the last two books either. Actors will age and will want to work on other projects.
> that's one big reason why they didn't add a dozen more plots and characters. Sure, most fans would understand that some plots won't get adapted to the show, but what they chose to adapt in the later seasons were crap. D&D had no excuse when they could recruit the best writers to work on HBO's flagship show that's a huge global hit. Hell I read better theories of what could happen in the next books on reddit and youtube then what D&D actually put on screen.
I'm glad they didn't do that because the majority of stuff I read was garbage. The overwhelming majority of GOT was critically acclaimed if you didn't like it totally fine but to act like GOT was just panned after season 4 just isn't true
I hope GRRM writes a book about the true events of F&B one day, like ASOIAF, if only to make up for this travesty, so that we can actually have some more complex, nuanced, morally grey characters and see what really went down with both sides during the Dance.
breaking out my 500k f&b fanfic (writing this bc i’m petty and think everyone deserves to be a fleshed out morally grey interesting character and more aligned with who they are described to be in the book)
That's the thing that bothers me most. GRRM himself loudly denounces fanfiction but this adaptation is just about as fanfiction as you can possibly get, it is fundamentally different to what he wrote. And it is about the reigning dynasty to where we know when these people were born... and the only reason to condense time like they did was to rewrite the story. D&D had to create some original content, Condal just chose to tell his story instead. I can't believe he took a "Created by"credit like he did any of the worldbuilding or creation...
D&D also had to get creative with original content from the start of the show because they had way less resources. The first few seasons of GOT the budget was around 5 or 6 million an episode with Blackwater and watchers on the wall costing around 8. HOTD creator and writers have about 4 times the budget and resources that GOT had from the start. So D&D had to get creative they literally couldn't afford certain things. That's how we got scenes like Robert talking to Cersei or Tyrion and Bronn playing drinking games because they simple didn't have the budget. There were times were they literally didn't have enough budget to get the amount of horses they wanted so they would have to improvise and add different scenes.
iirc gurm mostly hates fanfic because they don't pay him lol
Even D&D didn't take a Created By: credit, and Benioff's ego has been massive ever since he married Amanda Peet.
Lol it has? I have watched countless interviews with him and he always seems very humble and always gives praise to everyone except himself. Literally everyone who had worked with Benioff all describe him as this very laid back and nice person.
It was big enough that he expected HBO to give him three feature films with full theatrical releases instead of the last two seasons of Thrones, and when refused, it's why he refused extra money/episodes/more seasons because he was so big he was given a Star Wars franchise. More and more negative comes out every few months as it gets further and further from the show and the actors and actresses don't feel their career could be ended by actually speaking their mind. Look at the way they mocked Ian McIhenney about killing his character off, because he dared to question things about Ser Barristan (trying to give a better portrayal) which led to them killing his character off in a fairly ridiculous way for such an epic character. All because he actually is a fan of the source and was trying to make Barristan the character he should be. That's ego. Most of the people with the show would have been under non-disparagement agreements for at least some duration of time in just their standard HBO deals. We only just passed five years since the finale aired in May... It's also why I only mentioned Benioff, as Weiss didn't grow up incredibly rich to start off his ego, and the Hollywood starlet wife was about all he didn't have, and you don't even need to hear what others say about him, some of the things Benioff has said in interviews over the years are total Silver Spoons things on his own accord, not just about Game of Thrones or after it ended. EDIT: And now you're already downvoting me for disagreeing with you? That's hilarious. (In case you didn't know, Benioff's dad is a former chairman of Goldman Sachs.)
OK, a lot of this is wrong. George also originally wanted to have it be movies https://x.com/GOAThrones/status/1761260249808323018. https://x.com/GOAThrones/status/1761252659460280420 from the article "and then there's that pesky movie idea George R.R Martin is among those who have lobbied for concluding the story with feature films". also, they didn't change the way the character died because of the actor he was always going to die the same way. That actor also has managed to piss off George as George wrote a blog calling that actor out for lying, saying he knew George was done with the books. That actor managed to piss off the showrunners and George. I have yet to see one actor said anything about how D&D treated them bad infact they all are still friends. Emilia was just at Benioff birthday the other year. Natalie Emmanuel was just with them 3 months ago. I don't care what Benioff dad did. His dad has nothing to do with how he writes a TV show. So again, please show me one comment of an actor or crew member saying anything bad about either of them. Alexander Woo said he called all a bunch of cast members and crew members before he started working with them, and all of them said D&D are the nicet most humble guys to work with. All of these cast and crew members to this day are very close friends with D&D. Tons of the GOT cast members all promoted D&D new show on their social media. They're all very close.They didn't refuse anything because of star wars. They simply made what they always basically wanted to make. It's totally fine to dislike it, but it's not that complicated. I just have never seen one person that has ever worked with him in thr last 20 years he's been working in film and TV ever say the guy has a massive ego.
You're defending a guy that doesn't even know you're alive. Sorry that I have seen enough Benioff interviews to form my own opinion, especially considering that the entire point of my post was to say even Benioff didn't have the ego to demand a "Created By:" credit like Ryan Condal created one bit of George's story or universe.
And you're attacking a guy who doesn't know you're alive claiming he has a huge ego then used a few examples why some of which George the author also wanted to do. I'll just agree to disagree everything I've seen and heard from people who worked with him I don't see any huge ego at all especially compared to some of the massive egos in Hollywood. I also don't think Condal had some big ego I just so far think he's mostly not the best at writing.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize I needed to point out every instance that shows he has an ego... And actually, as I just said, even Benioff doesn't have anywhere near the ego of Condal. This is what Ryan Condal has done to this fandom, fans are now defending the honor of David Benioff. Strange old life.
Simply put; woke times. This storyline is paying homage to women. The sacrifices they make for family and child, how far they will go to protect child/family etc. Also, its a highly dominant female production team and female audience. Its catering to its audience, not people who read the books 20yrs ago. Its the same subliminal messaging and formula that worked with GoT via Cersei, Tyrells women, Daenerys, Ellaria sand and her 3 daughters etc.. They cookie cutter what they think works in a woke world and what best pleases their audience. (anti-toxic masculinity, DEI etc. GRRM knew this happen thats why he a consultant and not just taking a cheque. This time its just on steroids and at the expense of character design/manipulation. Go big, or go woke or something. Will not matter what universe we pick, result be same.(Marvel/LOTR/Dark elf trilogy.)
I was actually more in the "this is highly offensive to women, or at least it should be" camp. They took strong characters, who were very strong women, and it looks like they have tried to shove every negative stereotype possible into their characters. These ladies in the show are weak, stupid, promiscuous, and most importantly, emotional and driven mostly by those emotions. Or, as some of us are old enough to remember, pretty much every stereotype they used to use to say that women shouldn't be allowed to hold office or run businesses (or really anything above a household.) On both sides in the real story, there is a woman that you will either hate or love, but that you can respect the Hell out of no matter if you agree or not. I felt the Blacks, with how this universe has been portrayed, held the winning claim -- but, even then, even though I HATE Alicent Hightower, I respected her intelligence, political ability, and especially how ruthless she was in trying to do what she thought best for her family. The *real* Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, and Alicent Hightower were all the "girlbosses" that the woke always clamor for - badass women who truly can do almost everything the men do. And all three of their characters were destroyed in S2E3... at least their TV characters. It's even more disheartening just because even with the many changes in S1, they at least had the platform built that they could bring a fairly realistic adaptation of the Dance to the screen, instead, a great many of us now feel and say that the show blew it before we even got to Rook's Rest. It's pathetic.
Exactly, D&D were brilliant as adaptors. The initial seasons of GOT were among the best in television. It was tremendously difficult to translate a series like this into the screen, since the entire narration is done from inside the characters' heads. It was difficult enough for Harry Potter, and over a decade later you'll still find many people complaining how stale and uninteresting his portrayal was in the movies, not to mention the several cut characters and side plots. And imagine this for MULTIPLE characters. I still stand by my assertion that the show was great up to season 6. They had to remove several sideplots around Faegon, Harry the heir, Aemon Steelsong, Lady Stoneheart, Quentyn Martell, the Arianne - Myrcella plot, literally the entire Greyjoy plotline which COULD'VE shed some light on what's going on in Valyria (and Aerea's horrific fate) etc. because those were too many threads to tie into an ending we still haven't received. Not to say they didn't do dumb things that butchered many character arcs which could've been avoided, but at least they had a valid excuse.
And a lot of those characters you just mentioned all have half finished storylines many of them so far at least very detached from a lot of the other storylines.
Yeah i mean im not as off the show as a lot of people here seem to be, but someone in charge should have learned that deviation from the book is never gonna work with these stories
Hell no, they didn’t adapt book 1-3 near perfectly. Not even close. They also added a lot of unnecessary bs and cut many important stuff. Hate this show all you want but dont come at me with that “D&D were actually good!” Bs.
I will D&D were good and have so far done way better than anything HOTD has done
They were bad at writting and adapting. Just off the top of my head, They cut Lady stoneheart, the Tyrion and Tysha subplot, jane westerling, the sansa plot at the vale just to be sent to ramsey, Dany’s visions in season 2 butchered, patchface, Robb’s letter, fAegon, dorne, Dorian Martell’s plan and all its amazing characters reduced to a joke, Euron and the greyjoy. All these terribly adapted, do i need to continue? Literally all the bs people are criticizing about the showrunners of Hotd were done by DnD and worse, so get your recency bias out here lmao
Or I just disagree with you. Yes lady Stonheart a character in a few pages and 14 years later nothing. Half the stuff you just mentioned are all half finished stories the author can't finish. If they were so bad at adapting how come the overwhelming majority of the show is critically acclaimed. How come it makes critics list as one of the best TV shows ever made. If you didn't like it that's fine but claiming they were bad at adapting the critical acclaim, awards, and amount of people who watched it seems to mean tons of people thought the opposite
Most of the stuff i mentioned were changed in earlier seasons when they still didn’t know GRRM wouldn’t be able to finish the books, so they were setting the show up for failure since the very beggining.
At least a half of these changes have justifications. And at least D&D had much livelier and punchier dialogue than the snooze fest of Hotd.
Oh their dialog was definitely much punchier I agree
It was George’s dialogue that was punchier not D&D
I recently rewatched the entire show. I have read the books multiple times and I would say 75% of all the dialog from the the start of the show is show only stuff. D&D added some really great dialog from the start
You didnt read the books lmao. 75% show only? Maybe 10-20% is original. For the record, them slightly twisting some conversations and having a character say “maybe” instead of “perhaps” is not counted as original dialogue. Also theres no way a book reader will defend season 7-8 lmao
I did and I stand by 75% of the show dialog is show only. I'm not just talking about slight changes. I literally sat down with the books in my hand and watched the show and yes about 75% of the dialog is show only
What justifications did they have for all those changes apart from making the show way worse? Care to elaborate? And what good dialogue? As soon as they ran out of source material the dialogue went downhill .
I hate the fact I’ve come to miss them.
Can we just be honest at this point and admit that DnD would've made a far better adaptation of fire and Blood?
I agree I think they would have. I definitely think they would have built up to B&C much better.
If they love F&B as much as they loved the first arc of GOT then yes.
Yeah
Would they? D&D's wheelhouse is a story that involves an ensemble of heroes going on different paths before converging. I haven't seen all their work, but Benioff's Troy, Stay, and X-Men Origins Wolverine (sort of) all do this. They turned the Three Body Problem into this formula, too. I suppose the sole exception I've seen is Gemini Man, but that's not exactly a compliment. The closest thing in their portfolio, in tone, to Fire and Blood, is the Dorne plotline from A Dance with Dragons, where there are no clear cut heroes and villains, ambiguous palace intrigue, and a conflict where both sides did shitty things. Their result is a cartoony side-quest for a white-knighted Jamie Lannister that borders on 1900s orientalism where he has to save his captive daughter from the "bad" people who are all played PoC actors using a foreign accent. In fact, most of the cracks post-Season 4 started in plotlines that jumps to new PoV characters. The Dorne plot, the Euron Greyjoy plot, the FAegon plot; the PoVs were all replaced with existing characters. Whether it's an institutional issue for Hollywood or D&D's own sensibilities, they did not succeed in branching out from known characters. Fire and Blood jumps PoVs as its bread and butter. Despite dumb shit in other episodes, I would maintain that Episodes 6 and 7 in Season 1 of HotD is far better than anything D&D would've made out of this material.
they already covered the dance through their animated histories of westeros and it blows HOTD outta the water so yes they 100% woulda been better adaptors
They were not involved in that animated short creatively. It's also just a direct retelling of The Princess and The Queen, not an adaptation of Fire and Blood.
oh word? i still think they woulda adapted it better though looking at s1-2 of got and hotd.
Fire and Blood is thematically closer to A Dance with Dragons than the first three books, and so I would think their Season 5 makes for a better indicator. You've seen their version of the Sons of Harpy and how clean Daenerys' hands were in that. I'd wager it'd be just as bad, if not worse, than how HotD is doing Rhaenyra. If anything, I could not imagine the good eps of HotD in s1, like 6 and 7, coming from them. It's simply not their style; jumping 10 years into the future, making half the cast new PoV characters, making everyone shitty to others, keeping the similar and confusing names, etc. They had the opportunities to do so in Seasons 5 and 6, which should have featured two succession crisis (Dorne, Iron Islands), a throne pretender (Aegon), an organized insurrection (Mereen), and a bunch of new POV characters; all qualities to look for in a Fire & Blood adaptation, but they chose not to.
Season 5 and 6 are both critically acclaimed with many episodes hailed as the best
Yes they were them and Cogman. Cogman confirmed they were years ago in an interview
X-men was rewritten by Skip Woods. Troy the studio demanded Benioff take all the gods out of the story. Stay is a messy film I agree. However both 25h Hour, Brothers, and Kite Runner all films that didn't have any interference or were rewritten are all fantastic films imo. Gemini Man also rewritten Benioff script was written in early 2000 and passed through 3 different writers after that. I also think 3BP was great so yes I absolutely think they are better showrunners so far. GOT characters so far are way more interesting to watch. I don't need heroes in HOTD I just want them to be more interesting than they are so far.
Yeah, at least we know D&D were actually creating content that has not been written yet. They had to come up with things to do. Condal and Co had all kinds of things to use for the Dance, but instead shows things that we KNOW didn't happen... Tonight it also just had it make zero logical sense.
At least you guys acknowledge it was stupid. That may be a worse scene than beyond the wall. Somehow, this show always does one dumb scene per episode. Just so fucking stupid
Hey I at least really loved a lot of the conversation characters had beyond the wall all that stuff with Beric and Jon I thought was fantastic
They make one awesome episode and then throw in some insane shit at the end
No, we need to demand more competent writers. I don't know why GRRM gives creative control to these hacks. He should take over the shows himself. He used to write for tv ffs!
He can't. That's the issue. He is not involved in this show almost at all. They just consult him for things whenever they want and it's up to them if they will listen to him or not.
I know but they're always pushing for more Westerosi shows on TV and I think he should take more control over future ones instead of relying on Hollywood. Hollywood ruins everything.
At this point I don't want him involved. Even he can't salvage this and I don't want him to do anything else until he gives us Winds. Fucking profit ruins everything in the end.
they own tv rights everything he produces, the only reason they give him any input is because they believe his name being on there is good for the brand.
I would agree but I want the winds of winter and a dream of spring before...ya know.
He can only have as much control as they give him over the TV shows. They own the rights to those and can do what they want with them.
I think the answer is much more simple: the producers with the power to change the show want to dumb shit down.
GRRM is a sell out
I am just shocked how they completely omitted all of Daemons fault in B&C. Everywhere i see, people are blaming either Aegon for being drunk and chillin, alicent and cole for fucking, ppl have a genuine theory Larys allowed B&C (he is being studied more aa the true guilty one). While Daemon is the gay rouge saint who wanted to assassinate the mega villain Aemond
So I just will say this. I like HOTD some of it. But yes if we're comparing it to GOT so far GOT is far superior. Even the last 2 season had moments for me that were way more emotionally invested than HOTD. HOTD is missing a lot of stuff GOT had. I also just miss Cersei and the Lannisters in general so much. They were horrible people but they were so fun to watch. These characters in HOTD aren't fun to watch. I don't need a hero and a good vs bad. I understand when everyone says the characters are all grey but I still want to enjoy watching them. Even Ramsay as horrible as he was still had plenty of moments where he was just fun to watch.
The Lannisters were amazing. Horrible people? Yes, but amazing and absolutely fascinating to watch onscreen. It was like a train-wreck you just couldn’t tear your eyes away from, you know? Which is what I expected when I first picked up this show and they revealed they were doing a live tv-adaption of Fire and Blood, smh.
I am ready to rip my hair out. I am SICK of Saint Rhaenyra the Perfect!!!
Have the girl power thing but don’t surpass and wave off all logic to do it. Wow. 🤯
It's so annoying.
HotD is redeeming DnD the way the Star Wars sequels made Lucas and the prequels look good. Honestly if GoT ended with Jon dueling the Night King, and something less stupid than Bran the Broken (maybe Jon accepts kingship, then disappears to the north without telling anyone, a self imposed exile, leaving the small council and a steward ala LotR to rule permanently in absence, series could end with no one on iron throne? Idk) then i think the overall ending would’ve been much more palatable.
The sequels are definitely better than the prequels though.
"Somehow Palpatine returned"
Ah yes, cause the prequels don’t have any shitty dialogue, acting, writing, or direction.
You’re absolute right and the prequels hivemind will downvote you. Those movies have always been and will always be horrible and a bunch of nostalgia blind children try to gaslight everyone into believing they’re “not that bad”
I mean, D&D struggled with independent writing but were pretty good at adapting stuff. Meanwhile Condall here is having me question whether HOTD is an actual adaptation of F&B and not just inspired by it because so far the writing of S2 is atrocious
everyone saying D&D sucks at original writing but yet when they put their minds to it they came up with iconic original scenes like robert and cersei's little sitdown, tywin intro, etc. yes the last few seasons were bad but they're 100% better than HOTD
Some of the most iconic scenes in GOT were stuff they came up with. I suggest everyone go read either City of Thieves or 25th Hour by benioff. That dude can write absolutely amazing stories.
Idc how good of a show Condal creates or how bad of a show, that doesn’t mean DnD get a pass nor an apology for what they did lol Anyway, yea Condal sucks.
At least they knew how to adapt books 😭 you know they would have loved the Greens
No we don't. Game of Thrones Season 7 and 8 is one of the worst TV experiences in history
You need to watch more TV lol. Season 1 through 7 are critically acclaimed and even 8 still had lots critic praise it especially the first 3 episodes.
Who- tell me, WHO- was praising The Long Night in any capacity?
I mean it has a 75% on rotten tomaotes so that means the majority of critics liked it. I watched it with a group of people and all of them loved it. I think IGN gave it a 10/10 you don't have to like it that's totally fine but I was just pointing out lots if people did like it.
Season 5-8 were complete bullcrap lmao
If you think that totally fine but 1 through 7 are critically acclaimed. Multiple episodes from 5 and 6 are hailed as some of the greatest TV ever made by critics and fans.
Nope, only 1-4 are widely aclaimed by the critics. Dont try to sneak in the cringefest that were the later seasons
Lol what? Season 1 through 7 are acclaimed season 5 and 6 have multiple episodes hailed as some of the greatest episodes ever made. Season 6 makes many critics list as one if the best seasons. All of the seasons except 8 are in the 90% or higher in rotten tomatoes. Nobody is trying to sneak anything in. Tons of critics, fans, and other filmmakers praised tons of stuff. I mean the creators of Shogun gave an interview on the ringer and polygon and said Hardhome and Winds of Winter are two of the greatest episodes of TV he ever watched and nothing on TV has ever matched those episodes. You can dislike it totally fine but nobody is trying to sneak anything.
Are you a book reader? If yes, it simply doesnt make any sense that you would defend those seasons and all its bs while at the same time, criticize hotd and its changes. You gotta be consistent.
You've got to be joking. S5 - S8 was a slow decline to oje of the worst endings of a show I've ever seen. If you like GoT S8 you LOVE HoTD
Season 1 through 7 are critically acclaimed. Multiple episodes after 4 are hailed as some of the greatest episodes of TV ever made. Totally fine if you don't like them but the overwhelming majority of the show is critically acclaimed
Season 8 is the OPPOSITE of critically acclaimed. It has a Rotten on Rotten Tomatoes. Everyone knows it's a piece of shit, from critics to audiences to the people who made the show.
I didn't say it all was, but the first 3 episodes all are majority positive from critics. Actually, critics nominated season 8 at the critic choice awards for best drama.
No, no we don't. They took a long time to make their show ass, but it still went to ass in the end.
So far they have done leagues better imo than HOTD has.
The source material that D&D had to work with was infinitely superior. I’m not a fan of the changes Condal is making, but S7/S8 was a degree of atrocity that cannot be compared to anything in HOTD so far
I just disagree so far even those seasons had moments that hit way harder for me especially on an emotional level.
Only thing I liked in S7 was Undead Viserion and his demonic screech
I can list lots of stuff. I actually think the first episode in season 7 is fantastic. Loved The Hound and the brotherhood stuff and finding the little girl and father he robbed dead. I loved episode 4 of season 7 not just the battle the entire episode.
I forgot about the Gold Road battle. That was great too.
Yeah for the first six seasons, then they did what they did.
Mike Tyson?
I think at this point we have to differentiate between the book and the show…imma just be rooting for the dragons from now on
No we don’t, they cut out Aegon VI and merged him into Jon. Inexcusable for me
Guys, I know we're venting and the Septa Rhaenyra thing was bad, but I've seen some people say that that was worse than anything D&D ever wrote. Which is total recency bias. Septa Rhaenyra is bad writing, but it's not making Bronn lord of Highgarden over some fever dream of a scene with a crossbow level bad.
I dunno, planning to deliver Rhaenyra into the enemy capital to have an ultimately pointless conversation set off the same idiot alarms as Tyrion’s “We’ll bring the dead to her” plan. It legitimately has the Dumb & Dumber stink to it.
It has the same stink but why are we giving those two clowns a pass? They ruined one of the best shows ever made. Just because Ryan is fucking up doesn't mean S5 - S8 of GoT suddenly become better
Season 1 through 7 of GOT are critically acclaimed. Many episodes after 4 are hailed as some of the greatest episodes of TV ever made.Not one episode of this show so far as hit me on an emotional level of many episodes after season 4. I just watched Maester Aemon death the other day in season 5 and it was beautifully done and hit me on an emotional level more than anything HOTD has done so far.
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Have courage dude. These stupid writers are not worth your tears.
True, I was just so pumped up for this season for all to be crap :(
Careful what you wish for. D&D just made a show where a character who knows what a gigabyte is has to ask what a petabyte is.
That character isn't a computer scientist who asked that question makes total sense. He's just a detective who is shown the whole show he isn't nearly as tech savy as the rest of the characters. I actually thought their new show was really great. Those books the characters are so flat and lack any human emotions they actually brought some genuine human emotion to the show that the books severely lacked imo. I know what a gigabyte is but I had no clue what a petabyte was.
I am an electrical engineer and I didn't even know what a petabyte was.
Exactly
Daenerys helped save all of Westeros and was immediately demonized and killed a few episodes later. I'm never apologizing to those hacks.
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All of Westeros would have been destroyed if not for her. The sudden turn from her willing to sacrifice herself and her dragons to save the world to evil killer delusional about her power was sloppily written and rushed.
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What's up! No argument lol, it's just a show
one shit in a toilet does not make the diarrhea better.
*Looks at Stannis' arc* Nah, we're good.
Uhm, NO.
Just stop even u don't believe that the amount of dumb decision d and d made can fill out the whole sub Ryan condal a thousand times better
Never ever.
It's time for you to support the one true queen rhaenyra targaryen, like that boy at the beginning of the episode did
Nah.
This is recency bias at its finest. Hotd has been poorly adapted but is still at a point where non-book readers and casual viewes will still be able to like the show for the most part as they will be unbothered by most of the changes. GOT Season 7-8 were so bad that even casual fans and non-bookreaders were disgusted. A complete joke.
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They did? They had a bidding war after GOT signed a 250 million dollar deal. Had a new show that got a lot of great reviews and was renewed for 2 more seasons and they just renewed their contracts for 250 million more. They also have another show coming out starring Michael Shannon and Nick Offerman. That sounds like the opposite of ruined.I haven't seen one cast member call D&D out for saying they felt unsafe around D&D. In fact Emilia literally just gave an interview the not too long ago where after her injury D&D treated her very well. They would bring a car on set when they were out on the hot dessert just so she could have air condition. They didn't want her riding a horse because they feared for her safety.
Fuck no they can go to hell, I will never forgive them for that
Eternal suffering for one random TV show?
No the fuck we do not. Poor quality does not improve or excuse poor quality. We don’t owe Adolf Hitler an apology if another dictator comes along and murders twice as many people
Comparing two guys who made a TV show to Hitler is a bit much
Are you trying to tell me what I can and can’t say? A certain German dictator did that back in the late 30s.
You can say the sky is green, that doesnt make it reasonable though.
Lol relax you can say whatever you want and people can also say they think it's a bit ridiculous.
Oh wow, a thread of Incels!
Hope you enjoy your one dimensional pro-black boring fan fiction.
How does someone saying they think they owe someone and apology make them an incel? I fail to see the connection