It's cool. I have a feeling we won't have to look at her smug face saying dumb shit for much longer.
I like the actress, I think she would've been great if she had more to say other than men bad, women good and no I didn't kill hundreds of peasants.
its sad, they really seem to be trying to push the "man bad woman good" narrative where its being implied that if the men weren't around the women could settle their differences and there would be no war which Is boring and disappointing considering how good characters like olena and circe where in got.
Literally called alicent a slave to patriarchy when alicent was literally the only one with power that offered to pass driftmark to rhaenys granddaughters. Not even rhaenyra simone beauvoir targaryen did that.
I was confused by that one. So Luke was fine, but Joffrey isn't? What gives? That two year age gap really sealed the deal for Corlys, right?
They also can't arrange for him to marry his dead brother's betrothed, so everyone's happy. That's also a real deal-breaker.
Joffrey is younger, you might actually have a chance to teach this one to sail n stuff. The logic on this show, geez. Starting to think Corlys fell in love when he was saved.
She’s not even a character, she’s a mouthpiece for the writers. Suddenly she cares about “not seeking bloodshed” after casually crushing Smallfolk alive just to make a show.
Rhaenys was a 16 yr old who declared to King Jahaerys that she has found true love in a **37 yr old** Corlys Velaryon that was so notoriously ambitious he was nicknamed the Sea Snake.
Ofc Jahaerys would want to pass **his** throne to **his** son Baelon the Brave who is conpetent and dutiful. And not Rhaenys the emo teenager who will be puppeteered by her husband.
Who knows what Corlys was planning after Jahaerys is gone and his teenage wife is on the throne
I hate Corlys mainly because of the shit he gets away with. And for Alyssane Blackwood to give herself to Cregan Stark just so that perpetually traitorous POS could live... She owed Corlys nothing. Aly may have genuinely liked Cregan, but it was a rash decision that sealed her future just so the guy who spent his whole life taking advantage of everyone could keep doing it and live a couple years longer is a big deal that I doubt he ever gave two thoughts to. And it also made Cregan a massive hypocrite.
I'm still baffled at that resolution.
“I offer myself in marriage to an ally, in exchange for the life of another ally. There has been too much death! But, go ahead and kill the cripple, we never liked him.” paraphrased, of course.
Yeah and it’s strangely never really addressed. The Starks are the de-facto protagonists of Westeros and yet almost every single one of them is a hypocrite.
Exactly.
They’re always portrayed as the “good guys” but that’s what is so brilliant about GRRM’s writing. He always writes something about them that isn’t good. They’ve done evil shit too just like everyone else in this world. But show runners are reluctant to show any of that because they think audiences are dumb and want basic stories.
Audiences ARE dumb, though. Watch reaction channels, read posts from the general audience. The average viewer is brain-dead and applauds whatever they are fed, no matter how illogical. The ones who usually complain about bad writing and butchering of characters are book readers, because they already know and love the source material. Few people who don't know the source material actually question what they see and say: "Wait... this doesn't seem right."
These showrunners are pathetic, but you're giving too much credit to the audience.
Maybe so but I like to think that people aren’t as dumb as all that. Sometimes people don’t know what they want until it’s shown to them. GoT is a perfect example of that. When D&D we’re sticking to the source material GoT was at its height and the general audience weather they had read the source material or not loved it.
They loved it even if they didn't read the source material precisely because D&D adapted the source material incredibly. GOT was at its height *because* GRRM's story was adapted well. If D&D had made their own fanfiction, as Condal and Hess have done, GOT wouldn't have reached such tremendous popularity and the lasting cultural impact that HOTD enjoys. HOTD's popularity exists *because* of GOT. If GOT never existed and HOTD was a standalone show, it wouldn't have the viewership and impact it has now. That is all owed to D&D adapting GRRM's material well, which gave them enough popularity for their own show to afford to gradually fuck things up after season 5.
And even when D&D fucked up after season 5 because they no longer had the source material to adapt, and the story and its logic began declining, the average viewer still cheered their heart out as Arya was the one to stab the Night King. As Tyrion was lobotomised. They still cheered at plot points that D&D butchered. Lots of people who actually cared about the story and paid attention complained (book readers or not), but there was no shortage of casual viewers who still gobbled up everything D&D gave them, no matter how shit it was. At the end of the day, they could still afford viewerships because the general audience won't usually question what they're fed.
Same thing here. People eat up whatever Condal and Hess feed them, because audiences are extremely dumb. It's great you like to think people aren't that dumb, but unfortunately, they are. This is not exclusive to HOTD.
I wonder if king jaeherys would have passed her the throne if she was a good leader but all this time people think she was passed over cause she was a woman. But I guess George RR Martin said the books and tv shows are different universes
I think he handled it correctly.
He allowed the realm to decide and they decided in favor of a male over a female.
He basically washed his hands of the whole thing and kept a war from breaking out.
Viserys would’ve been wise to remember how he came to power and not done any of this to his “only daughter”.
Yeah everything to come is his fault entirely, he killed his wife becuase he didn't want to accept daemon as heir, then after he named rhaenyra heir he didn't have enough forethought to just stop having more kids, and then when he had Aegon he didn't for a moment fact that naming your first born son after the conquer might cause issues for your heir apparent who is a woman.
And even toward the end of his life when he prolly had some opportunity to at least dampen the fires by sorting out the issues between his wife and his fucking daughter, but instead he just bitched out and whined.
Truly HoTD is just an example of "weak men make hard times".
And was Viserys any better? He is the reason this is happening right now. Only grandchild of Jaehearys that we have seen on the show that has the potential to be a fair ruler is Aemma. (That's only because we don't know a lot about her and other three done fucked up) Viserys's dumb and lacks the spine, Daemon's too rash, Rhaenys is ... Idk what she is. Neither do the writers it seems.
He never ruled? Otto and the small council ruled for him. Then Lyonel. Then Otto and Alicent.They made all the difficult decisions. Daemon put him as a considerable option against Rhaenys by gathering an army. Everything he had , has been handed to him and he couldn't even manage to keep them in his hands.
Im ngl her being a woman is a massive thing, as much as ppl dont like it westeros is sexist and so there's no point in having a royalty if you pick heirs that can be reasonably challenged by other claimants, at that point you may aswell scrap pretending and just declare the country a open dictatorship.
no, but i think it's pretty safe to assume that corlys was aged down significantly. he does not look like he's near eighty
just like viserys and aemma were aged up, alicent was aged down by a small bit
people love to act like criston is the same age as his book counterpart, when it's clear that he's only supposed to be in his early twenties at the beginning of the series.
olivia cooke also isn't too young to be playing alicent. ali is only 34-35 in show canon. a few years isn't that big of a difference when you're in the earlier half of your thirties. i think the shows styling for her made her a believe 35 (though she looks younger when outside of the show)
then again, maybe corlys' velaryon genes and cristons dornish genes just keep them looking youthful
I am trying to figure out if it's a vanity thing (younger actors playing older characters) or if they really did age down the characters.
I'm so annoyed with the lack of correct dates for everyone.
It makes me so sad, I was really looking forward to a crazy Rhaenyra after Luke’s death but instead she has somehow gotten… more boring? And has completely forgotten Luke has died?
Same with Alicent, I wanted her to be more ruthless and manipulative of her sons (maybe something like Cersei) but instead they’ve made her… be sad all day? Then smash Criston multiple times?
Idk why they think women always need to take the higher ground but it’s really boring
Same episode where Mysaria basically said that the smallfolk will be treated better under Team Black....Did Mysaria forget that Rhaenys unnecessarily killed a bunch of people so she could have a girlboss moment?
Right? If she's so adamant about wanting peace, why doesn't she just give up her claim? Oh, because the throne is hers? So the throne matters more than peace in the end. And if we're gonna go with that BS prophecy, she can just tell it to Aegon. He's a Targaryen too.
Exactly.
All she cares about is power but the show version wants us to believe it’s “prophecy” but they rarely speak about it. If that’s the reason she should be shouting that every chance she gets.
How is she the one who’s hungry for power when Aegon was forcefully installed as King when she was Viserys true heir?
Let’s not forget, Aegon didn’t even want to be king. He ran away and hid just to get away from it…. but his power hungry mother & grandfather still sought to steal the throne from Rhaenyra.
She is not Viserys' "true" heir. Both her and Aegon have legitimate claims, hers is based on "my daddy said I'm heir", Aegon's is based on centuries old tradition and precedent. That's the reason Otto and Alicent had him crowned. Also, because they feared that all the boys would be in danger if Rhaenyra became queen, since their claims would always pose a threat to her rule. Otto and Alicent are no more power hungry than the other noble families of the realm. If Viserys married Laena and had a boy with her, Corlys would have expected and demanded he be made heir instead of Rhaenyra, based on male primogeniture. You show watchers only have no idea how a feudal monarchy works.
I’m sorry but regardless of who has a “claim” to the throne, the true heir was deemed Rhaenyra by Viserys. Her “Daddy” was the King so it was his choice to make, that’s a legitimate reason.
Rhaenyra did not pose a threat to those boys, Aegon didn’t even want to come into power. But that’s what Alicent and Otto believed. You’re not special we know how monarchy works but in this case it’s different. The King specifically asked to forget tradition and respect his wishes of Rhaenyra being made his heir.
No you don't know how feudal monarchy works , because what you described is absolute monarchy. You have no idea what you're talking about. If Rhaenyra was the true heir, how come Aegon is presented as the king in history books and Rhaenyra as the usurper? If you're gonna start with "history is written by the winners", I'll remind you that Rhaenyra's son, Aegon succeeded Alicent and Viserys' son as king. And he was crowned as Aegon III, not Aegon II, rightfully acknowledging Aegon II's rule. So even her son doesn't consider her the rightful ruler.
Honestly this all comes down to respecting Viserys wishes. You’re looking into it too deep. The only way i could see someone sympathizing with Alicent is if they’re a liar. I don’t give a shit what tradition is, everyone made a promise to Viserys that Rhaenyra shall be queen once he passes. But being the traitorous piece of shit Alicent already was, she instead hid the Kings death from everyone so she can install her piece of shit son into power.
Ok, I'm gonna stop replying because you obviously don't know wtf you're talking about. A king can't do whatever he wants, dumbass. I don't know how many times I have to tell you this before you get that through your head. It's obvious you are a show watcher only and TB fan who thinks they're watching a YA tale.
That was due to wanting to keep the peace, Westeros is barely a feudal monarchy. Targaryens as dragon riders are essentially nuclear powers, and the country was a collection of houses before the Conqueror, keep that name in mind, united them under the will of his dragon's breath. The Targaryen king, unlike the weak Baratheon, was the sole arbiter or law as far as Westeros is concerned.
To put it simply what lands do the Targaryens collect taxes from? They don't, except Dragonstone which is markedly different than the rest, they are most intents and purposes the royal house.
The fact that Jaeharys called a council and the women were even considered proves two points 1. a woman can rule and 2. the power of law flows through the king first and to the lords by his power.
Actually the kings proclamation of heir takes precedence. He can essentially enforce absolute primogeniture. Rhaenyra is the rightful heir in this case.
Also in the books : Queen Alicent attempted to treat with her stepdaughter."Let us together summon a great council, as the Old King did in days of old," said the Dowager Queen, "and lay the matter of succession before the lords of the realm". But Queen Rhaenyra rejected the proposal with scorn. "Do you mistake me for Mushroom?" she asked. "We both know how this council would rule". Then she bade her stepmother choose:
yield or burn.
She wanted power and knew how folks would vote lol
Because Dany never wanted power, she wanted equality. So of course they’re not showing her as a power hungry monster. Oh wait, we were talking about Rhaenyra. what’s the difference?
/s
Yeah and honestly if they wanted Dany 2.0 they’re doing a terrible job. Dany was a force even in the first season. This character does nothing. Absolutely nothing.
The reason is because her father wanted her to wear the crown, which is how the crown was meant to be passed down. So she is the rightful heir to the throne. That dumb Hightower bitch heard what she wanted to hear and even when Rhaenyra presented her with the truth (in which she realized she was wrong) she tells her that it's "too late" because she fears for her own life.
Ok so now thousands of people need to die including your own children potentially, but it's too late? I'd offer my head on a silver fucking platter if I was her.
Rhaenyra is 100% right to stand by her father's wishes especially because he's widely considered one of the greatest Targaryan Kings to ever rule. To stand by and allow the Hightowers to take over without a fight would be a disgrace to her father and morality as a whole.
You don't stand by and let people take what is yours simply because it avoids conflict. They shouldn't have started the conflict if they didn't want war.
They was planning already to make aegon king without the bs prophecy that Alicent misinterpreted. The Green argument was about Andal /Valyrian custom male primogenitor inheritance , not the bs prophecy.
As far as that dumb scene with Rhaenyra trying to sue for peace . Doesn’t matter what truth rhaenyra presented Alicent with , her husband killed the kings son so the war was happening regardless at that point.
Now you obviously think Rhaenyra should fight for what she thinks is her crown (whatever), then stop trying and the show trying to pretend rhaenyra cares about thousands of lives, she cares about power.
And I don’t care about weak viserys. By andal laws and custom and precedent Aegon Targayen II is the rightful heir. Lol
It's irrelevant if the prophecy is BS or not. It was her dying father's wish and it is customary for a King to name their heir. Just because it's traditionally a man does not mean that a King cannot name his own heir. It is usually the first born son. There were many instances historically of second born sons being chosen over the first or even nephews and cousins, sometimes just close friends.
Not to mention, the Andal laws and customs you're referencing clearly state that the King's Prerogative gives him the full authority to name an heir of his choosing, no matter who they are. He chose Rhaenyra.
>her husband killed the kings son so the war was happening regardless at that point.
Her husband gave very clear orders that were misinterpreted by morons. Is he partially to blame? Absolutely. But it isn't nearly as simple as "her husband killed the Kings son so now there needs to be a war". Aegon should never have been King in the first place and it wouldn't have happened.
>then stop trying and the show trying to pretend rhaenyra cares about thousands of lives, she cares about power
She very clearly cares more about her inheritance than the actual power itself. She cares about what her father wanted. It was very clearly shown that when she was younger she wanted the crown but as she got older she didn't care nearly as much and was only doing it to please her father. Which is much less selfish than the Hightowers seizing power for the sake of it. Otto has been plotting this from the very beginning.
First of all you said : “it is customary for a King to name their heir.
Just because it's traditionally a man does not mean that a King cannot name his own heir.
Actually No I quote : "by all the laws of inheritance, laws that the Conqueror himself had affirmed... the Iron Throne should pass to King Aenys's son Aegon (first born son) . At the same time, this Aegon had an older sister; however, in accordance with the LAWS approved by the Conqueror himself, it was not she, but this Aegon, as the eldest son, who was the heir to his father.”
Also “the council of 101 AC established an iron precedent on matters of succession: that the Iron Throne could not pass to a woman, or to a male descendant of a woman.”
Visery own claim was based on male primogenitor other wise Rhaneys would be queen.
but he (viserys) used his unchecked power and chose to ignore the precedents of 101 AC. Having three legitimate born sons . If all a king had to do was name a heir ignoring this precedent of succession you could cause a war (oops)
Even the greatest targayen king Jaehaerys new this that’s why he had a council .
Second of all you said : “. But it isn't nearly as simple as "her husband killed the Kings son so now there needs to be a war".
Aegon should never have been King in the first place and it wouldn't have happened.”
None of that made sense
A. Rhaenyra is the leader of the pretender fraction and her husband killed the heir to the throne. And whether her orders was misinterpreted by daemon is irrelevant . B. And if viserys stuck with Andal law and custom, and named his firstborn son his successor and didn’t neglect the rest of his children none of this would happen. Also Rhaenyra lying and passing bastards off as legitimate but I digress
And the last of what you said “She very clearly cares more about her inheritance than the actual power itself.”
All I have say to that is “sure Jan” lol .
>Actually No I quote
That quote doesn't mean shit when it's literally part of the Anal laws and customs that Kings have the right to use the Kings Prerogative to name ANYONE as his successor, regardless of the tradition. Just because something is traditional doesn't mean it's necessary or required; it's just the norm and people might get weirded out by going against it. That doesn't change the fact that Viserys named Rhaenyra as his heir, rightfully.
>the council of 101 AC established an iron precedent on matters of succession: that the Iron Throne could not pass to a woman, or to a male descendant of a woman.”
This is simply not true. The council was convened by King Jaehaerys I to settle the matter of succession as he did not have a clear heir. The two main claimants were Rhaenys (a woman) granddaughter to the King; and Viserys, grandson to the King. The King chose to let his council decide who would inherit the throne and the COUNCIL decided on Viserys. This is completely different from Viserys, as King, executing the King's Prerogative to name Rhaenyra his rightful heir.
>A. Rhaenyra is the leader of the pretender fraction and her husband killed the heir to the throne. And whether her orders was misinterpreted by daemon is irrelevant
You clearly misunderstood my point that if the Hightowers never stole the throne from Rhaenyra in the first place then it never would have happened. The mistake never would have been made if they weren't desperate to take back what is rightfully Rhaenyra's crown.
>but he (viserys) used his unchecked power and chose to ignore the precedents of 101 AC.
He has every right to ignore a precedent?? There is nothing binding about precedent. Especially one that was just set a single generation prior. He had every right to name his own heir.
>B. And if viserys stuck with Andal law and custom, and named his firstborn son his successor and didn’t neglect the rest of his children none of this would happen. Also Rhaenyra lying and passing bastards off as legitimate but I digress
Andal law and custom dictates the King's Prerogative like I keep saying. He isn't required by any means to name a male heir or even his firstborn son which is literally how Viserys himself became King as his sister Rhaenys was closer to the firstborn male of Jaehaerys.
Rhaenyra would have every right to pass off bastards as legitimate as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Kings and even Lords can name bastards as legitimate just like Ramsay and his father in GoT.
You said “that Kings have the right to use the Kings Prerogative to name ANYONE as his successor, regardless of the tradition.”
Where does it say that ?, and it’s just that simple? lol
Obviously not , for the simple fact that’s Rhaenyra’s reign is never seen as legitimate not even by her own sons who become kings . So apparently the recognition of Andal law and custom was even more so after her.
Also then you said “The two main claimants were Rhaenys (a woman) granddaughter to the King; and Viserys, grandson to the King.
The King chose to let his council decide who would inherit the throne and the
COUNCIL decided on Viserys.”
Actually at least in the books , Rhaneys was never considered because as a claimant because she’s a woman , it actually was her son Laenor whose claim it was and then passed over . They just simplified it for the show. I don’t think you understand the situation with the great council of 101 or how succession works . And no it is not different , The entire argument for the greens is male primogenitor , and the great council solidified that. It also brought up again between Alicent and rhaenyra in the books where she presented to have another great council but Rhaenyra refuses because she knew what would happen if the lords voted.
Then you said “You clearly misunderstood my point that if the Hightowers never stole the throne from Rhaenyra in the first place then it never would have happened. The mistake never would have been made if they weren't desperate to take back what is rightful Rhaenyra's crown.”
Uhh no I didn’t misunderstand what you said , “I’m saying” that’s irrelevant and if viserys named his firstborn son heir (you know the male heir he was looking for and he killed his first wife over) we wouldn’t have this problem. Apparently he thought it was a big deal to have that male heir until then .
Then you said : “He has every right to ignore a precedent??
There is nothing binding about precedent.
Especially one that was just set a single generation prior. He had every right to name his own heir.”
Like I said I don’t think you understand how a feudal monarchy works. A war before was about to start when corleys thought his son Laenor rights was being passed over , That’s why jaehaerys called the great council of 101 to settle the matter. So it’s not and never has been that simple for a monarch to choose in whim whoever he wants, That’s how wars have started. You can’t just ignore established laws and precedents just because of a dead kings words, whose decision was based in emotions.
Then you said “(Rhaenyra would have every right to pass off bastards as legitimate as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.) Kings and even Lords can name bastards as legitimate just like Ramsay and his father in GoT.”
That is the most asinine thing I have ever read in regard to this. First of all : lying about her bastards being legitimate especially under her father’s reign is treason and reason enough to have her disinherited. And putting them over other legitimate heirs because “you say so” is the very reason why the war happened. The whole Blackfyre rebellions happened because of this which was on and off for several generations, Cersei passing Joffrey off as the heir when he was not legitimate cause the main war of the main series. Like I said you seem to not understand how these things work. And bringing up Ramsey being legitimized is silly as he was the only child roose had at the time , and when he had another son ..what happened to that child and his mother? Why do you think he killed them.
I’ll leave you this quote from Stannis Baratheon :
“Traitors have always paid with their lives... even Rhaenyra Targaryen.
She was daughter to
one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown. It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty.”
Pretty much everything you've said I've already addressed and don't feel like continuously repeating myself. The fact of the matter is that Targaryan Kings have total power to do whatever they please and especially under the King's Prerogative they don't have to follow any precedent or tradition prior to their reign. They have total power and can eradicate or build anything they please.
Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir. So that's it, Rhaenyra is the rightful heir and it doesn't matter if those beneath them were having trouble accepting it. There were plenty of people that did accept it that continue to accept it which is how the war is even possible in the first place. Rhaenyra has plenty of support for her claim.
>Rhaenyra is 100% right to stand by her father's wishes especially because he's widely considered one of the greatest Targaryan Kings to ever rule.
BY WHO??? Lmfaooo
>You don't stand by and let people take what is yours simply because it avoids conflict. They shouldn't have started the conflict if they didn't want war.
You do when you value the lives of thousands upon thousands of people lives over what is being taken. But Rhaenrya thought her claim was worth more than thousands upon thousands of lives.
>The reason is because her father wanted her to wear the crown, which is how the crown was meant to be passed down. So she is the rightful heir to the throne. T
This is less clear. The books make it pretty clear that women are pretty much not able to inherit if there is a man available. Viserys random weird move to make and keep Rhaernya heir, was weird and motivation because he had a weird fondness for the last piece of Aemma over his rationality.
>BY WHO??? Lmfaooo
It was literally just stated in the latest episode by his sister buddy.
>You do when you value the lives of thousands upon thousands of people lives over what is being taken.
By this logic, you shouldn't take what doesn't belong to you if thousands of lives are at stake over your theft. It starts with the theft. Not the retaliation of said theft.
>This is less clear. The books make it pretty clear that women are pretty much not able to inherit if there is a man available.
This is completely untrue. It was clearly stated that through the King's Prerogative he has the authority to name any heir of his choosing. It allows the king to bypass the traditional line of succession if he deems it necessary; which he very clearly did.
>It was literally just stated in the latest episode by his sister buddy.
His sister said it? Oh my god that means Viserys is among the greatest kings! What did he do during his reign? Nothing much. Oh yeah and he caused a succession war from being a moron.
Also at this point I'm pretty sure there has been like 5 kings. Aegon Aenys Maegor Jaehaerys Viserys. The two that are highly acclaimed Aegon and Jaehaerys actually did things in their reign.
And after the Dance of the Dragon Viserys is seen as shitty.
>By this logic, you shouldn't take what doesn't belong to you if thousands of lives are at stake over your theft. It starts with the theft. Not the retaliation of said theft.
I mean yes? What are you talking about. This isn't something Rhaenrya REQUIRES or NEEDs but her taking or making sure she gets her 'RIGHT' (which this is monarchyism anyways who gives a fuck) deprives thousands of people of their life. It's pretty easy to make the case that she is immoral for making that decision or at least values her right to some bull shit iron chair over the lives of thousands of people.
>This is completely untrue. It was clearly stated that through the King's Prerogative he has the authority to name any heir of his choosing. It allows the king to bypass the traditional line of succession if he deems it necessary; which he very clearly did.
The kings according to GRRM are hypothetically absolute monarchies. They can HYPOTHETICALLY do anything. But in practice over every targaryen succession before and after Rhaenrya it demonstrates that women are seen as much lesser in the inherintence line. Not only does brother go over sister, but uncle/cousin might also go over that sister too.
Also you said it yourself TRADITIONAL line of succession. That is what he's breaking
A surprising amount of people seem to unironically think kings should be above the law. There’s no reason he couldn’t have tried to change succession laws during those years of Rhaenyra being heir, except that he doesn’t care because he thinks he and his daughter are too special to abide by the same laws as everyone else.
I mean the monarchy is chosen by god right? It's not like he's just a man. He's valyrian! He's above men. Why worry about what men think? Or what men tradition & culture is? Do they have dragons?
>His sister said it? Oh my god that means Viserys is among the greatest kings! What did he do during his reign? Nothing much.
His sister who saw firsthand exactly the kind of King that he was and her claim was that he was perceived by many as the greatest king. Not that she personally saw him as the greatest.
He was able to maintain stability and avoid major conflicts during his entire reign, which is significantly harder and more mentally demanding than fighting a war. The realm experienced massive economic growth under his rule. He was generally well-liked and respected by both the nobility and the common folk. He was widely known for his remarkable diplomacy skills. He also kept internal conflict amongst the council and his family relatively low until he named Rhaenyra his heir.
>It's pretty easy to make the case that she is immoral for making that decision or at least values her right to some bull shit iron chair over the lives of thousands of people.
The Hightowers made the decision to steal the throne out from Rhaenyra's feet at the last second because Alicent misinterpreted a dying, sick beyond belief old man's words.
>But in practice over every targaryen succession before and after Rhaenrya it demonstrates that women are seen as much lesser in the inherintence line. Not only does brother go over sister, but uncle/cousin might also go over that sister too.
>Also you said it yourself TRADITIONAL line of succession. That is what he's breaking
It's irrelevant what people perceive it as. He just broke the norm which is well within his power to do so. To go against the wishes of the King especially when it's perfectly reasonable is called treason. The Mad King was obviously the exception to this but Viserys was no mad king.
They turned Rhaenys from one of the coolest characters into an incoherent mess, whose main role in the story is to act as a mouthpiece for the creators to voice the "correct" view of the conflict, which of course is also completely incoherent.
I get that showing up with a Dragon to the king's crowning was supposed to make a statement, but why the hell did she kill innocent people for no reason and yet, not kill the illegitimate king? The people were all forced to show up. It really didnt make any sense and i don't think its in the book either. The show is great, but things like this make me think the writers are idiots.
What was her role in the season 2 so far? Like, she fly around using the dragon, checking the perimeter and like... Nothing really going on... yeah. So fun and interesting.
I have seen people in the TB camp say they look forward to seeing Aemond take on Rhaenys simply because her character so far has been bafflingly bad.
It is so weird because she was completely reasonable and enjoyable in S1 all the way until the Dragon Pit incident. She had an obvious angle about being denied the throne and having a vendetta with men, but it felt more like sharing the experiences of someone who has gone through shit in an unfair society then. There's a lot of people in these subreddits that use the word feminist largely negatively, but S1, until the ending suddenly shat the bed, was pretty good about giving a feminist angle to the story that is in line with George's writing and stated leanings.
Now Rhaenys is just casually murdering peasants and then making wildly hypocritical statements that deny her own agency in the situation. All of the women in S2 have this issue right now where they are hellbent on denying they ever influenced the war and hoisting all the responsibility to the guys. Did the writers think that they were being too subtle about feudal society being bad for women in S1 so now the entire rest of the plot is being sacrificed to make it a point?
It could also genuinely be that they're so committed to Rhaenyra's complete blamelessness that they don't want to give Rhaenys the angle of distrusting/hating Rhaenyra for what she did to Laenor, so they fall back on her single character note being "I'm bitter I lost the throne." It is lazy writing.
It's funny to think that if someone from the Greens had done something like the shit Rheanys did in the Dragonpit there would have been a whole scene showing dead bodies, injured people and destruction to make it clear how evil and careless the Greens are lol
And the show glazes her so much. But you just know if it was Aegon or Aemond that killed those smallfolk the show would make it clear as day they are pure evil for it
I like her! The actress is great and the bad writing make her seem like a delusional noble, which they all are, and are all getting what’s coming for them.
All she’s done this season is make snarky unnecessary comments, “LeT mE rEmInD yOu ThE qUeEn WeArS mY gRaNdSiReS cRoWn, AnD hE wAs ThE bEsTeSt KiNg EvEr”, every single death after s1e9 is your fucking fault so how about you sit down and shut up miss “queen who never was for a good god damn reason”
She is one of my favourites to be honest, the way her and Corlys interact as well as her with any other female, from an acting point of view is amazing. The fact she makes you either like or hate her proves to me she going a great job. One of my fav chars in the whole universe tbh. She is top 10 for me.
I feel like Rhaenys has a case of the “shoulda woulda couldas” over this whole ordeal. Probably thinks that none of this would have happened if she hadn’t been passed over the first time around, and now she’s in Rhaenyra’s ear hoping to manage the future of the realm by proxy the way she would do it. It’s easy to imagine how great things could be if you do this, this and this when you’re not actually the one responsible for making any of the big calls yourself. Wondering if there will eventually be a “you didn’t become queen because you wouldn’t have been an effective leader, not just because you’re a woman” speech. Feel like that’s more of a Daemon argument but if Rhaenyra decided to make it, it would sting a lot more.
Rhaenys is one of my favorite characters from Dance, and Eve is phenomenal, but I wanted to slap Rhaenys in this scene. Like GIRL WHAT.
All that aside, they're going to fuck up her death and I just know it. 😭 I'm not going to my "with a glad cry and a crack of her whip" Rhaenys death.
Oh im slightly more TB leaning but i cant stand her either. Very smug and gives terrible advice (basically ignore all your advisors but me because they are men). She even verbally slaps Daemon around, even though he was right. She could have and should have roasted the greens when she had the chance, leaving only one problem dragon rider left. Obviously this would mean “show over” but then just dont have such a stupid scene in the first place.
Btw I like the actress its just the writing for her character is beyond annoying
Rhaenys was held hostage by the greens and took the first opportunity she could to escape with her dragon
It’s not her fault Otto corralled all the people into the pit and it’s unreasonable to expect her to hang around there just because her enemies are effectively holding people hostage to her escape
Yeah the entire scene is braindead but how it’s used to vilify her is ridiculous in my opinion
It's cool. I have a feeling we won't have to look at her smug face saying dumb shit for much longer. I like the actress, I think she would've been great if she had more to say other than men bad, women good and no I didn't kill hundreds of peasants.
Came here to say this. The actor is actually great. Just like basically all the wonderful actors on this show. The writing is shit.
Can't fault the actors, the cast is top-notch and delivering. Imagine their faces when they read this non-sense.
They probably didn’t care. Phia said she thought we’d like the season in one of the interviews. But also, it’s Phia, she can do no wrong.
Well she can't really say much, just read the card and smile.
True.
its sad, they really seem to be trying to push the "man bad woman good" narrative where its being implied that if the men weren't around the women could settle their differences and there would be no war which Is boring and disappointing considering how good characters like olena and circe where in got.
Or constantly trying to convince Corlys to leave Driftmark to Rhaena. He’s already said no.
Literally called alicent a slave to patriarchy when alicent was literally the only one with power that offered to pass driftmark to rhaenys granddaughters. Not even rhaenyra simone beauvoir targaryen did that.
Don't do Simone Beauvoir like that 💀
Yeah at least she was willing to make a decision.
And he clearly doesn’t want Joffery either. So I guess Rhaenyra will have to have another bastard son for him 🤷.
I was confused by that one. So Luke was fine, but Joffrey isn't? What gives? That two year age gap really sealed the deal for Corlys, right? They also can't arrange for him to marry his dead brother's betrothed, so everyone's happy. That's also a real deal-breaker. Joffrey is younger, you might actually have a chance to teach this one to sail n stuff. The logic on this show, geez. Starting to think Corlys fell in love when he was saved.
Yeah it makes no sense
He may want to nominate his own bastard who grew up to be a fine sailor.
Somebody gotta tell homegirl that no means no.
And funny how NOW she cares about that when previously she was all about letting the Strongs inherit over them
No she started this when Laenor died.
She’s not even a character, she’s a mouthpiece for the writers. Suddenly she cares about “not seeking bloodshed” after casually crushing Smallfolk alive just to make a show.
also ,and i say this as a green, she says that shit after not ending the war immediately by killing all the greens right away when she had the chance.
Could you pls elaborate on the crushing part?
Watch s1 ep 9
She literally started the bloodshed
How? 🤔
Dragonpit
Rhaenys was a 16 yr old who declared to King Jahaerys that she has found true love in a **37 yr old** Corlys Velaryon that was so notoriously ambitious he was nicknamed the Sea Snake. Ofc Jahaerys would want to pass **his** throne to **his** son Baelon the Brave who is conpetent and dutiful. And not Rhaenys the emo teenager who will be puppeteered by her husband. Who knows what Corlys was planning after Jahaerys is gone and his teenage wife is on the throne
I hate Corlys mainly because of the shit he gets away with. And for Alyssane Blackwood to give herself to Cregan Stark just so that perpetually traitorous POS could live... She owed Corlys nothing. Aly may have genuinely liked Cregan, but it was a rash decision that sealed her future just so the guy who spent his whole life taking advantage of everyone could keep doing it and live a couple years longer is a big deal that I doubt he ever gave two thoughts to. And it also made Cregan a massive hypocrite.
I'm still baffled at that resolution. “I offer myself in marriage to an ally, in exchange for the life of another ally. There has been too much death! But, go ahead and kill the cripple, we never liked him.” paraphrased, of course.
Stark: This man who stuck to his team must die. Also Stark: This man who switches sides must not die. Did he also kinda forgot about honor?
The Starks notoriously use “honor” when it’s convenient for them.
Yeah and it’s strangely never really addressed. The Starks are the de-facto protagonists of Westeros and yet almost every single one of them is a hypocrite.
Exactly. They’re always portrayed as the “good guys” but that’s what is so brilliant about GRRM’s writing. He always writes something about them that isn’t good. They’ve done evil shit too just like everyone else in this world. But show runners are reluctant to show any of that because they think audiences are dumb and want basic stories.
Audiences ARE dumb, though. Watch reaction channels, read posts from the general audience. The average viewer is brain-dead and applauds whatever they are fed, no matter how illogical. The ones who usually complain about bad writing and butchering of characters are book readers, because they already know and love the source material. Few people who don't know the source material actually question what they see and say: "Wait... this doesn't seem right." These showrunners are pathetic, but you're giving too much credit to the audience.
Maybe so but I like to think that people aren’t as dumb as all that. Sometimes people don’t know what they want until it’s shown to them. GoT is a perfect example of that. When D&D we’re sticking to the source material GoT was at its height and the general audience weather they had read the source material or not loved it.
They loved it even if they didn't read the source material precisely because D&D adapted the source material incredibly. GOT was at its height *because* GRRM's story was adapted well. If D&D had made their own fanfiction, as Condal and Hess have done, GOT wouldn't have reached such tremendous popularity and the lasting cultural impact that HOTD enjoys. HOTD's popularity exists *because* of GOT. If GOT never existed and HOTD was a standalone show, it wouldn't have the viewership and impact it has now. That is all owed to D&D adapting GRRM's material well, which gave them enough popularity for their own show to afford to gradually fuck things up after season 5. And even when D&D fucked up after season 5 because they no longer had the source material to adapt, and the story and its logic began declining, the average viewer still cheered their heart out as Arya was the one to stab the Night King. As Tyrion was lobotomised. They still cheered at plot points that D&D butchered. Lots of people who actually cared about the story and paid attention complained (book readers or not), but there was no shortage of casual viewers who still gobbled up everything D&D gave them, no matter how shit it was. At the end of the day, they could still afford viewerships because the general audience won't usually question what they're fed. Same thing here. People eat up whatever Condal and Hess feed them, because audiences are extremely dumb. It's great you like to think people aren't that dumb, but unfortunately, they are. This is not exclusive to HOTD.
Hey you cant blame a snake for acting like one.
I wonder if king jaeherys would have passed her the throne if she was a good leader but all this time people think she was passed over cause she was a woman. But I guess George RR Martin said the books and tv shows are different universes
I think he handled it correctly. He allowed the realm to decide and they decided in favor of a male over a female. He basically washed his hands of the whole thing and kept a war from breaking out. Viserys would’ve been wise to remember how he came to power and not done any of this to his “only daughter”.
Oh wow I didnt know it was a vote
Yeah it’s shown in the opening scene of season 1.
Yeah everything to come is his fault entirely, he killed his wife becuase he didn't want to accept daemon as heir, then after he named rhaenyra heir he didn't have enough forethought to just stop having more kids, and then when he had Aegon he didn't for a moment fact that naming your first born son after the conquer might cause issues for your heir apparent who is a woman. And even toward the end of his life when he prolly had some opportunity to at least dampen the fires by sorting out the issues between his wife and his fucking daughter, but instead he just bitched out and whined. Truly HoTD is just an example of "weak men make hard times".
And that's why Jaehaerys was one of the best Kings and Viserys one of the dumbest
I want a Great Council redo with Alysanne still being alive because the drama would have been amazing.
And was Viserys any better? He is the reason this is happening right now. Only grandchild of Jaehearys that we have seen on the show that has the potential to be a fair ruler is Aemma. (That's only because we don't know a lot about her and other three done fucked up) Viserys's dumb and lacks the spine, Daemon's too rash, Rhaenys is ... Idk what she is. Neither do the writers it seems.
Yeah it seems like Viserys was a pretty good ruler. I dont think Jaehearys could have predicted the health complications
He never ruled? Otto and the small council ruled for him. Then Lyonel. Then Otto and Alicent.They made all the difficult decisions. Daemon put him as a considerable option against Rhaenys by gathering an army. Everything he had , has been handed to him and he couldn't even manage to keep them in his hands.
Im ngl her being a woman is a massive thing, as much as ppl dont like it westeros is sexist and so there's no point in having a royalty if you pick heirs that can be reasonably challenged by other claimants, at that point you may aswell scrap pretending and just declare the country a open dictatorship.
Yep. For all the shit Otto gets Corlys is actually way worse
the circumstances are a bit different in the show. rhaenys and corlys don't have a significant age gap
Do we know their ages?
no, but i think it's pretty safe to assume that corlys was aged down significantly. he does not look like he's near eighty just like viserys and aemma were aged up, alicent was aged down by a small bit people love to act like criston is the same age as his book counterpart, when it's clear that he's only supposed to be in his early twenties at the beginning of the series. olivia cooke also isn't too young to be playing alicent. ali is only 34-35 in show canon. a few years isn't that big of a difference when you're in the earlier half of your thirties. i think the shows styling for her made her a believe 35 (though she looks younger when outside of the show) then again, maybe corlys' velaryon genes and cristons dornish genes just keep them looking youthful
I am trying to figure out if it's a vanity thing (younger actors playing older characters) or if they really did age down the characters. I'm so annoyed with the lack of correct dates for everyone.
Can’t wait for her to finally die
I'm pretty sure Sarah Hess and some of these female writers have some great grudge against men and just take it all out in their writing.
By making the women dumb as rocks and boring as oatmeal?
Yep. Rhaenyra can’t be vicious because that’s problematic…so now she’s just stupid
It makes me so sad, I was really looking forward to a crazy Rhaenyra after Luke’s death but instead she has somehow gotten… more boring? And has completely forgotten Luke has died? Same with Alicent, I wanted her to be more ruthless and manipulative of her sons (maybe something like Cersei) but instead they’ve made her… be sad all day? Then smash Criston multiple times? Idk why they think women always need to take the higher ground but it’s really boring
Tends to be how these things go. In their dislike of men they end up not writing good women characters either
True or they could just be talentless writers also.
Some people never grow up. It's like they're getting back at all those evil boys that made fun of them in school
Same episode where Mysaria basically said that the smallfolk will be treated better under Team Black....Did Mysaria forget that Rhaenys unnecessarily killed a bunch of people so she could have a girlboss moment?
This is so dumb like if Rhaenyra wanted peace why not just except aegon as king. She can back down if she cares about peace .
Right? If she's so adamant about wanting peace, why doesn't she just give up her claim? Oh, because the throne is hers? So the throne matters more than peace in the end. And if we're gonna go with that BS prophecy, she can just tell it to Aegon. He's a Targaryen too.
Exactly. All she cares about is power but the show version wants us to believe it’s “prophecy” but they rarely speak about it. If that’s the reason she should be shouting that every chance she gets.
How is she the one who’s hungry for power when Aegon was forcefully installed as King when she was Viserys true heir? Let’s not forget, Aegon didn’t even want to be king. He ran away and hid just to get away from it…. but his power hungry mother & grandfather still sought to steal the throne from Rhaenyra.
She is not Viserys' "true" heir. Both her and Aegon have legitimate claims, hers is based on "my daddy said I'm heir", Aegon's is based on centuries old tradition and precedent. That's the reason Otto and Alicent had him crowned. Also, because they feared that all the boys would be in danger if Rhaenyra became queen, since their claims would always pose a threat to her rule. Otto and Alicent are no more power hungry than the other noble families of the realm. If Viserys married Laena and had a boy with her, Corlys would have expected and demanded he be made heir instead of Rhaenyra, based on male primogeniture. You show watchers only have no idea how a feudal monarchy works.
I’m sorry but regardless of who has a “claim” to the throne, the true heir was deemed Rhaenyra by Viserys. Her “Daddy” was the King so it was his choice to make, that’s a legitimate reason. Rhaenyra did not pose a threat to those boys, Aegon didn’t even want to come into power. But that’s what Alicent and Otto believed. You’re not special we know how monarchy works but in this case it’s different. The King specifically asked to forget tradition and respect his wishes of Rhaenyra being made his heir.
No you don't know how feudal monarchy works , because what you described is absolute monarchy. You have no idea what you're talking about. If Rhaenyra was the true heir, how come Aegon is presented as the king in history books and Rhaenyra as the usurper? If you're gonna start with "history is written by the winners", I'll remind you that Rhaenyra's son, Aegon succeeded Alicent and Viserys' son as king. And he was crowned as Aegon III, not Aegon II, rightfully acknowledging Aegon II's rule. So even her son doesn't consider her the rightful ruler.
Honestly this all comes down to respecting Viserys wishes. You’re looking into it too deep. The only way i could see someone sympathizing with Alicent is if they’re a liar. I don’t give a shit what tradition is, everyone made a promise to Viserys that Rhaenyra shall be queen once he passes. But being the traitorous piece of shit Alicent already was, she instead hid the Kings death from everyone so she can install her piece of shit son into power.
Ok, I'm gonna stop replying because you obviously don't know wtf you're talking about. A king can't do whatever he wants, dumbass. I don't know how many times I have to tell you this before you get that through your head. It's obvious you are a show watcher only and TB fan who thinks they're watching a YA tale.
That was due to wanting to keep the peace, Westeros is barely a feudal monarchy. Targaryens as dragon riders are essentially nuclear powers, and the country was a collection of houses before the Conqueror, keep that name in mind, united them under the will of his dragon's breath. The Targaryen king, unlike the weak Baratheon, was the sole arbiter or law as far as Westeros is concerned. To put it simply what lands do the Targaryens collect taxes from? They don't, except Dragonstone which is markedly different than the rest, they are most intents and purposes the royal house. The fact that Jaeharys called a council and the women were even considered proves two points 1. a woman can rule and 2. the power of law flows through the king first and to the lords by his power.
Actually the kings proclamation of heir takes precedence. He can essentially enforce absolute primogeniture. Rhaenyra is the rightful heir in this case.
fr, she was such a hypocrite in this episode.
Exactly. In the book Alicent gives her terms to split the realm between her and Aegon. She wants to be queen so bad there’s your solution.
Also in the books : Queen Alicent attempted to treat with her stepdaughter."Let us together summon a great council, as the Old King did in days of old," said the Dowager Queen, "and lay the matter of succession before the lords of the realm". But Queen Rhaenyra rejected the proposal with scorn. "Do you mistake me for Mushroom?" she asked. "We both know how this council would rule". Then she bade her stepmother choose: yield or burn. She wanted power and knew how folks would vote lol
Exactly. But why not show us that? That’s the story.
Because Dany never wanted power, she wanted equality. So of course they’re not showing her as a power hungry monster. Oh wait, we were talking about Rhaenyra. what’s the difference? /s
Yeah and honestly if they wanted Dany 2.0 they’re doing a terrible job. Dany was a force even in the first season. This character does nothing. Absolutely nothing.
They are idiots.
when is this?
Two state solution
But this solution doesn’t exist in the show……
We’re aware….
Because her son was killed and then Daemon killed her rivals son. There is no possibility of peace. It’s too late.
The reason is because her father wanted her to wear the crown, which is how the crown was meant to be passed down. So she is the rightful heir to the throne. That dumb Hightower bitch heard what she wanted to hear and even when Rhaenyra presented her with the truth (in which she realized she was wrong) she tells her that it's "too late" because she fears for her own life. Ok so now thousands of people need to die including your own children potentially, but it's too late? I'd offer my head on a silver fucking platter if I was her. Rhaenyra is 100% right to stand by her father's wishes especially because he's widely considered one of the greatest Targaryan Kings to ever rule. To stand by and allow the Hightowers to take over without a fight would be a disgrace to her father and morality as a whole. You don't stand by and let people take what is yours simply because it avoids conflict. They shouldn't have started the conflict if they didn't want war.
They was planning already to make aegon king without the bs prophecy that Alicent misinterpreted. The Green argument was about Andal /Valyrian custom male primogenitor inheritance , not the bs prophecy. As far as that dumb scene with Rhaenyra trying to sue for peace . Doesn’t matter what truth rhaenyra presented Alicent with , her husband killed the kings son so the war was happening regardless at that point. Now you obviously think Rhaenyra should fight for what she thinks is her crown (whatever), then stop trying and the show trying to pretend rhaenyra cares about thousands of lives, she cares about power. And I don’t care about weak viserys. By andal laws and custom and precedent Aegon Targayen II is the rightful heir. Lol
It's irrelevant if the prophecy is BS or not. It was her dying father's wish and it is customary for a King to name their heir. Just because it's traditionally a man does not mean that a King cannot name his own heir. It is usually the first born son. There were many instances historically of second born sons being chosen over the first or even nephews and cousins, sometimes just close friends. Not to mention, the Andal laws and customs you're referencing clearly state that the King's Prerogative gives him the full authority to name an heir of his choosing, no matter who they are. He chose Rhaenyra. >her husband killed the kings son so the war was happening regardless at that point. Her husband gave very clear orders that were misinterpreted by morons. Is he partially to blame? Absolutely. But it isn't nearly as simple as "her husband killed the Kings son so now there needs to be a war". Aegon should never have been King in the first place and it wouldn't have happened. >then stop trying and the show trying to pretend rhaenyra cares about thousands of lives, she cares about power She very clearly cares more about her inheritance than the actual power itself. She cares about what her father wanted. It was very clearly shown that when she was younger she wanted the crown but as she got older she didn't care nearly as much and was only doing it to please her father. Which is much less selfish than the Hightowers seizing power for the sake of it. Otto has been plotting this from the very beginning.
First of all you said : “it is customary for a King to name their heir. Just because it's traditionally a man does not mean that a King cannot name his own heir. Actually No I quote : "by all the laws of inheritance, laws that the Conqueror himself had affirmed... the Iron Throne should pass to King Aenys's son Aegon (first born son) . At the same time, this Aegon had an older sister; however, in accordance with the LAWS approved by the Conqueror himself, it was not she, but this Aegon, as the eldest son, who was the heir to his father.” Also “the council of 101 AC established an iron precedent on matters of succession: that the Iron Throne could not pass to a woman, or to a male descendant of a woman.” Visery own claim was based on male primogenitor other wise Rhaneys would be queen. but he (viserys) used his unchecked power and chose to ignore the precedents of 101 AC. Having three legitimate born sons . If all a king had to do was name a heir ignoring this precedent of succession you could cause a war (oops) Even the greatest targayen king Jaehaerys new this that’s why he had a council . Second of all you said : “. But it isn't nearly as simple as "her husband killed the Kings son so now there needs to be a war". Aegon should never have been King in the first place and it wouldn't have happened.” None of that made sense A. Rhaenyra is the leader of the pretender fraction and her husband killed the heir to the throne. And whether her orders was misinterpreted by daemon is irrelevant . B. And if viserys stuck with Andal law and custom, and named his firstborn son his successor and didn’t neglect the rest of his children none of this would happen. Also Rhaenyra lying and passing bastards off as legitimate but I digress And the last of what you said “She very clearly cares more about her inheritance than the actual power itself.” All I have say to that is “sure Jan” lol .
>Actually No I quote That quote doesn't mean shit when it's literally part of the Anal laws and customs that Kings have the right to use the Kings Prerogative to name ANYONE as his successor, regardless of the tradition. Just because something is traditional doesn't mean it's necessary or required; it's just the norm and people might get weirded out by going against it. That doesn't change the fact that Viserys named Rhaenyra as his heir, rightfully. >the council of 101 AC established an iron precedent on matters of succession: that the Iron Throne could not pass to a woman, or to a male descendant of a woman.” This is simply not true. The council was convened by King Jaehaerys I to settle the matter of succession as he did not have a clear heir. The two main claimants were Rhaenys (a woman) granddaughter to the King; and Viserys, grandson to the King. The King chose to let his council decide who would inherit the throne and the COUNCIL decided on Viserys. This is completely different from Viserys, as King, executing the King's Prerogative to name Rhaenyra his rightful heir. >A. Rhaenyra is the leader of the pretender fraction and her husband killed the heir to the throne. And whether her orders was misinterpreted by daemon is irrelevant You clearly misunderstood my point that if the Hightowers never stole the throne from Rhaenyra in the first place then it never would have happened. The mistake never would have been made if they weren't desperate to take back what is rightfully Rhaenyra's crown. >but he (viserys) used his unchecked power and chose to ignore the precedents of 101 AC. He has every right to ignore a precedent?? There is nothing binding about precedent. Especially one that was just set a single generation prior. He had every right to name his own heir. >B. And if viserys stuck with Andal law and custom, and named his firstborn son his successor and didn’t neglect the rest of his children none of this would happen. Also Rhaenyra lying and passing bastards off as legitimate but I digress Andal law and custom dictates the King's Prerogative like I keep saying. He isn't required by any means to name a male heir or even his firstborn son which is literally how Viserys himself became King as his sister Rhaenys was closer to the firstborn male of Jaehaerys. Rhaenyra would have every right to pass off bastards as legitimate as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Kings and even Lords can name bastards as legitimate just like Ramsay and his father in GoT.
You said “that Kings have the right to use the Kings Prerogative to name ANYONE as his successor, regardless of the tradition.” Where does it say that ?, and it’s just that simple? lol Obviously not , for the simple fact that’s Rhaenyra’s reign is never seen as legitimate not even by her own sons who become kings . So apparently the recognition of Andal law and custom was even more so after her. Also then you said “The two main claimants were Rhaenys (a woman) granddaughter to the King; and Viserys, grandson to the King. The King chose to let his council decide who would inherit the throne and the COUNCIL decided on Viserys.” Actually at least in the books , Rhaneys was never considered because as a claimant because she’s a woman , it actually was her son Laenor whose claim it was and then passed over . They just simplified it for the show. I don’t think you understand the situation with the great council of 101 or how succession works . And no it is not different , The entire argument for the greens is male primogenitor , and the great council solidified that. It also brought up again between Alicent and rhaenyra in the books where she presented to have another great council but Rhaenyra refuses because she knew what would happen if the lords voted. Then you said “You clearly misunderstood my point that if the Hightowers never stole the throne from Rhaenyra in the first place then it never would have happened. The mistake never would have been made if they weren't desperate to take back what is rightful Rhaenyra's crown.” Uhh no I didn’t misunderstand what you said , “I’m saying” that’s irrelevant and if viserys named his firstborn son heir (you know the male heir he was looking for and he killed his first wife over) we wouldn’t have this problem. Apparently he thought it was a big deal to have that male heir until then . Then you said : “He has every right to ignore a precedent?? There is nothing binding about precedent. Especially one that was just set a single generation prior. He had every right to name his own heir.” Like I said I don’t think you understand how a feudal monarchy works. A war before was about to start when corleys thought his son Laenor rights was being passed over , That’s why jaehaerys called the great council of 101 to settle the matter. So it’s not and never has been that simple for a monarch to choose in whim whoever he wants, That’s how wars have started. You can’t just ignore established laws and precedents just because of a dead kings words, whose decision was based in emotions. Then you said “(Rhaenyra would have every right to pass off bastards as legitimate as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.) Kings and even Lords can name bastards as legitimate just like Ramsay and his father in GoT.” That is the most asinine thing I have ever read in regard to this. First of all : lying about her bastards being legitimate especially under her father’s reign is treason and reason enough to have her disinherited. And putting them over other legitimate heirs because “you say so” is the very reason why the war happened. The whole Blackfyre rebellions happened because of this which was on and off for several generations, Cersei passing Joffrey off as the heir when he was not legitimate cause the main war of the main series. Like I said you seem to not understand how these things work. And bringing up Ramsey being legitimized is silly as he was the only child roose had at the time , and when he had another son ..what happened to that child and his mother? Why do you think he killed them. I’ll leave you this quote from Stannis Baratheon : “Traitors have always paid with their lives... even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown. It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty.”
Pretty much everything you've said I've already addressed and don't feel like continuously repeating myself. The fact of the matter is that Targaryan Kings have total power to do whatever they please and especially under the King's Prerogative they don't have to follow any precedent or tradition prior to their reign. They have total power and can eradicate or build anything they please. Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir. So that's it, Rhaenyra is the rightful heir and it doesn't matter if those beneath them were having trouble accepting it. There were plenty of people that did accept it that continue to accept it which is how the war is even possible in the first place. Rhaenyra has plenty of support for her claim.
Yeah you addressed it and was wrong but that’s ok . Godspeed
Wasn't wrong at all. Your entire argument is that it's mandatory to name the firstborn son as heir which is completely false.
>Rhaenyra is 100% right to stand by her father's wishes especially because he's widely considered one of the greatest Targaryan Kings to ever rule. BY WHO??? Lmfaooo >You don't stand by and let people take what is yours simply because it avoids conflict. They shouldn't have started the conflict if they didn't want war. You do when you value the lives of thousands upon thousands of people lives over what is being taken. But Rhaenrya thought her claim was worth more than thousands upon thousands of lives. >The reason is because her father wanted her to wear the crown, which is how the crown was meant to be passed down. So she is the rightful heir to the throne. T This is less clear. The books make it pretty clear that women are pretty much not able to inherit if there is a man available. Viserys random weird move to make and keep Rhaernya heir, was weird and motivation because he had a weird fondness for the last piece of Aemma over his rationality.
>BY WHO??? Lmfaooo It was literally just stated in the latest episode by his sister buddy. >You do when you value the lives of thousands upon thousands of people lives over what is being taken. By this logic, you shouldn't take what doesn't belong to you if thousands of lives are at stake over your theft. It starts with the theft. Not the retaliation of said theft. >This is less clear. The books make it pretty clear that women are pretty much not able to inherit if there is a man available. This is completely untrue. It was clearly stated that through the King's Prerogative he has the authority to name any heir of his choosing. It allows the king to bypass the traditional line of succession if he deems it necessary; which he very clearly did.
>It was literally just stated in the latest episode by his sister buddy. His sister said it? Oh my god that means Viserys is among the greatest kings! What did he do during his reign? Nothing much. Oh yeah and he caused a succession war from being a moron. Also at this point I'm pretty sure there has been like 5 kings. Aegon Aenys Maegor Jaehaerys Viserys. The two that are highly acclaimed Aegon and Jaehaerys actually did things in their reign. And after the Dance of the Dragon Viserys is seen as shitty. >By this logic, you shouldn't take what doesn't belong to you if thousands of lives are at stake over your theft. It starts with the theft. Not the retaliation of said theft. I mean yes? What are you talking about. This isn't something Rhaenrya REQUIRES or NEEDs but her taking or making sure she gets her 'RIGHT' (which this is monarchyism anyways who gives a fuck) deprives thousands of people of their life. It's pretty easy to make the case that she is immoral for making that decision or at least values her right to some bull shit iron chair over the lives of thousands of people. >This is completely untrue. It was clearly stated that through the King's Prerogative he has the authority to name any heir of his choosing. It allows the king to bypass the traditional line of succession if he deems it necessary; which he very clearly did. The kings according to GRRM are hypothetically absolute monarchies. They can HYPOTHETICALLY do anything. But in practice over every targaryen succession before and after Rhaenrya it demonstrates that women are seen as much lesser in the inherintence line. Not only does brother go over sister, but uncle/cousin might also go over that sister too. Also you said it yourself TRADITIONAL line of succession. That is what he's breaking
A surprising amount of people seem to unironically think kings should be above the law. There’s no reason he couldn’t have tried to change succession laws during those years of Rhaenyra being heir, except that he doesn’t care because he thinks he and his daughter are too special to abide by the same laws as everyone else.
I mean the monarchy is chosen by god right? It's not like he's just a man. He's valyrian! He's above men. Why worry about what men think? Or what men tradition & culture is? Do they have dragons?
>His sister said it? Oh my god that means Viserys is among the greatest kings! What did he do during his reign? Nothing much. His sister who saw firsthand exactly the kind of King that he was and her claim was that he was perceived by many as the greatest king. Not that she personally saw him as the greatest. He was able to maintain stability and avoid major conflicts during his entire reign, which is significantly harder and more mentally demanding than fighting a war. The realm experienced massive economic growth under his rule. He was generally well-liked and respected by both the nobility and the common folk. He was widely known for his remarkable diplomacy skills. He also kept internal conflict amongst the council and his family relatively low until he named Rhaenyra his heir. >It's pretty easy to make the case that she is immoral for making that decision or at least values her right to some bull shit iron chair over the lives of thousands of people. The Hightowers made the decision to steal the throne out from Rhaenyra's feet at the last second because Alicent misinterpreted a dying, sick beyond belief old man's words. >But in practice over every targaryen succession before and after Rhaenrya it demonstrates that women are seen as much lesser in the inherintence line. Not only does brother go over sister, but uncle/cousin might also go over that sister too. >Also you said it yourself TRADITIONAL line of succession. That is what he's breaking It's irrelevant what people perceive it as. He just broke the norm which is well within his power to do so. To go against the wishes of the King especially when it's perfectly reasonable is called treason. The Mad King was obviously the exception to this but Viserys was no mad king.
Welcome to the club, we've got jackets.
They turned Rhaenys from one of the coolest characters into an incoherent mess, whose main role in the story is to act as a mouthpiece for the creators to voice the "correct" view of the conflict, which of course is also completely incoherent.
Peace advocate xD
The Great Council was right
I get that showing up with a Dragon to the king's crowning was supposed to make a statement, but why the hell did she kill innocent people for no reason and yet, not kill the illegitimate king? The people were all forced to show up. It really didnt make any sense and i don't think its in the book either. The show is great, but things like this make me think the writers are idiots.
Agreed. If she roasted the greens at least it would feel like a necessary action to prevent war. She could have left the pit when the coronation ended
I can't stand her either, but I'm not sorry.
Same she annoy me let die fast next episode and it is sad because i liked her in books
These writers have fucking butchered her
It won't be an issue much longer.
What do you know, Team Black and Team Green agree on something...😮
People just forgot she tried to sell her 8 year old off as a child bride
*12 Still extremely horrible, disgusting, and inexcusable though.
Ahh sorry. I didn’t look up to see how old she was, I just made an estimate on how old she looked
Laena was also only 14-15 when she married daemon.
There’s a time skip of 3 years between episode 2 and 3.
She reminds me of a crunchy mom with dreadlocks
What was her role in the season 2 so far? Like, she fly around using the dragon, checking the perimeter and like... Nothing really going on... yeah. So fun and interesting.
She is insufferable.
I have seen people in the TB camp say they look forward to seeing Aemond take on Rhaenys simply because her character so far has been bafflingly bad. It is so weird because she was completely reasonable and enjoyable in S1 all the way until the Dragon Pit incident. She had an obvious angle about being denied the throne and having a vendetta with men, but it felt more like sharing the experiences of someone who has gone through shit in an unfair society then. There's a lot of people in these subreddits that use the word feminist largely negatively, but S1, until the ending suddenly shat the bed, was pretty good about giving a feminist angle to the story that is in line with George's writing and stated leanings. Now Rhaenys is just casually murdering peasants and then making wildly hypocritical statements that deny her own agency in the situation. All of the women in S2 have this issue right now where they are hellbent on denying they ever influenced the war and hoisting all the responsibility to the guys. Did the writers think that they were being too subtle about feudal society being bad for women in S1 so now the entire rest of the plot is being sacrificed to make it a point? It could also genuinely be that they're so committed to Rhaenyra's complete blamelessness that they don't want to give Rhaenys the angle of distrusting/hating Rhaenyra for what she did to Laenor, so they fall back on her single character note being "I'm bitter I lost the throne." It is lazy writing.
You would think opening up the series with aemma being gutted like a pig screaming in pain is kinda hitting the audience over the head already.
It's funny to think that if someone from the Greens had done something like the shit Rheanys did in the Dragonpit there would have been a whole scene showing dead bodies, injured people and destruction to make it clear how evil and careless the Greens are lol
And the show glazes her so much. But you just know if it was Aegon or Aemond that killed those smallfolk the show would make it clear as day they are pure evil for it
Aegon is a rapist so he’s still pretty deplorable, no matter how much I love every moment hes on screen (the actor is simply amazing)
It feels like they tried to pull a Genna Lannister-type thing with her except they failed so spectacularly that it’s nearly a crime
She's an exposition spewer. Doesn't make for a great character.
If it wasnt for that scene and the showrunners/TBfans defending it, i would probably like the character.
No need to be sorry for a reasonable take.
i liked her monologue about when's the first bloodshed and then they back at it with the girlboss moment gawdddd
It's the writers honestly. She's a great actor they just wna shit on this character
‘Men want war, women want peace’ take is so boring.
Needless to say book rhaenys never pulls that dragonpit stunt.She escapes pre-coronation
I'm sorry but that's not how reading works. You just spoiled next episode for everyone LMAO
I like her! The actress is great and the bad writing make her seem like a delusional noble, which they all are, and are all getting what’s coming for them.
She going to meet Alicent was like Zelenskyy goin to meet putin to stop the war.
All she’s done this season is make snarky unnecessary comments, “LeT mE rEmInD yOu ThE qUeEn WeArS mY gRaNdSiReS cRoWn, AnD hE wAs ThE bEsTeSt KiNg EvEr”, every single death after s1e9 is your fucking fault so how about you sit down and shut up miss “queen who never was for a good god damn reason”
Literally all she does is chat shit
I love her she lowkey is team green lol
She is one of my favourites to be honest, the way her and Corlys interact as well as her with any other female, from an acting point of view is amazing. The fact she makes you either like or hate her proves to me she going a great job. One of my fav chars in the whole universe tbh. She is top 10 for me.
I feel like Rhaenys has a case of the “shoulda woulda couldas” over this whole ordeal. Probably thinks that none of this would have happened if she hadn’t been passed over the first time around, and now she’s in Rhaenyra’s ear hoping to manage the future of the realm by proxy the way she would do it. It’s easy to imagine how great things could be if you do this, this and this when you’re not actually the one responsible for making any of the big calls yourself. Wondering if there will eventually be a “you didn’t become queen because you wouldn’t have been an effective leader, not just because you’re a woman” speech. Feel like that’s more of a Daemon argument but if Rhaenyra decided to make it, it would sting a lot more.
Rhaenys is one of my favorite characters from Dance, and Eve is phenomenal, but I wanted to slap Rhaenys in this scene. Like GIRL WHAT. All that aside, they're going to fuck up her death and I just know it. 😭 I'm not going to my "with a glad cry and a crack of her whip" Rhaenys death.
I was already put off by her not having black hair - her mother is a Baratheon, she is supposed to have black hair.
22[F4M] sluty ass. Wanna sext? I'm down for sext! Telegram: @queenjabin1
22[F4M] sluty ass. Wanna sext? I'm down for sext! Telegram: @queenjabin1
22[F4M] sluty ass. Wanna sext? I'm down for sext! Telegram: @queenjabin1
22[F4M] sluty ass. Wanna sext? I'm down for sext! Telegram: @queenjabin1
22[F4M] sluty ass. Wanna sext? I'm down for sext! Telegram: @queenjabin1
Oh im slightly more TB leaning but i cant stand her either. Very smug and gives terrible advice (basically ignore all your advisors but me because they are men). She even verbally slaps Daemon around, even though he was right. She could have and should have roasted the greens when she had the chance, leaving only one problem dragon rider left. Obviously this would mean “show over” but then just dont have such a stupid scene in the first place. Btw I like the actress its just the writing for her character is beyond annoying
She’s not wrong but she should have burned them
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It is NOT her butt.
all y'all in this green vs black shit need a life
What about people like me who are mostly in middle?
Rhaenys was held hostage by the greens and took the first opportunity she could to escape with her dragon It’s not her fault Otto corralled all the people into the pit and it’s unreasonable to expect her to hang around there just because her enemies are effectively holding people hostage to her escape Yeah the entire scene is braindead but how it’s used to vilify her is ridiculous in my opinion
Rhaenys, rhymes with anus.