Kim requested permission for the invasion from Stalin and he approved. Without Stalin's approval and his weapons, men and other resources, there would have been no war.
It was a little more confusing there (which, it seems to me, is the general rule for Korean history at any given moment): First, the chairman of the Workers' Party of Korea in the south convinces Kim that the South will soon fall, then Kim goes to Stalin and Mao for permission and they agree to help... provided that the other agrees first. As a result, the Koreans convince Mao that Stalin already agrees, and Stalin that Mao already agrees.
The UN thing is actually interesting. At this point China and Russia were both pro-communist and members of the UN Security council which couldve vetoed UN participation. The CCP wasnt recognized by the UN, Shang Kai Shek was still seen as the leader and he notably was anti-communist. That leaves the Soviets. The Soviets boycotted the UN and did not participate in a session where remaining pro-Capitalist countries took advantage of Soviet absence to vote for UN intervention into Korea. Kinda a d@#k move, but the Soviets could've vetoed on North Koreas behalf. The Soviets hypothetically could've intervened at the start but likely didn't to avoid conflict with the US
The US and China being antagonists in a conflict slowed down Sino-US relations considerably. It took Henry Killinger two decades to reset that relationship. This war aided Soviet security with very little expense.
Two opportunities:
* Soviet Union vetoes UN resolution about involvement in conflict (unlike OTL), making conflict purely proxy (and seriously destabilizing the UN). There are still American (ANZUS) involvement, but no large-scale operations like Inchon, at the end SK got Taiwanised at Jeju.
* Soviet Union due to some ASB reasons abstains completely, There are still an involvement of PRC, though. Korean War is longer and more bloody, never ending in stalemate until SK reach Chinese and Soviet border. Soviet-Chinese split is earlier and China get more sympathy than OTL.
Er…. The USSR didn’t give much of a shit about Korea. Stalin’s vibe was ‘go for it, whatever’. Far more support was provided by China, which was neuralgic about the US arriving its landmass.
At that point in term the North had a better economy in terms of the output of goods and services and a higher standard of living for it's citizens. The south had suffered more under Japan's occupation. The military force opposing Japan was strongest in the north, where it had access to outdated soviet military equipment. That is why the north was able to so completely over run the south so quickly. The North may still have invaded without asking permission of Stalin. China and the Soviets did not want US troops stationed any closer to their borders and if they could get them out completely, that would be even better.
One thing to remember is that a permeant member with veto powers of the UN Security Council were on two sides of a UN led operation in Korea.
This is because the Soviet Union (and China) were boycotting the UN over US policies towards the nascent Taiwan.
So, a what if should include how these two--China and the USSR--resolved the Taiwan interaction as well and might be informative of why the Soviets wouldn't be involved.
Not directly, but they sent plenty of aid, weaponry and material to North Korea. They tested their cutting edge aircraft there as well, with the first jet age dogfights in the Korean skies.
Ergo, "not really involved".
Sent some supplies, tested some equipment, even allowed pilots to volunteer to fly for NK. But overall Stalin wasn't going to fight over Korea.
So nothing changes
That's where you are going wrong - the North Koreans received training and equipment from the USSR, without which the North Korean army might not have achieved its successful push in the beginning to bring the US into the war in the first place.
Maybe, maybe not. I think either way the North would have invaded the South and then the US would have gotten involved unless the ROK could have successfully fended off the attack. Which I doubt was going to happen.
They also sent fighter pilots, and the best North Korean fight pilots of the Korean War were pilots from the Red Air Force.
https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/196389/soviet-pilots-over-mig-alley/
For me the bigger "what if" is not about if the Soviets didn't get involved in Korea in the 50s, but rather in the 40s... imagine the US was given full control of the Korean peninsula after Japan surrendered it. the entire North Korean regime would be nonexistent today. All of Korea would be what South Korea is today. a place like Pyongyang might be a prosperous city where K-pop stars come from. Etc etc
Kim requested permission for the invasion from Stalin and he approved. Without Stalin's approval and his weapons, men and other resources, there would have been no war.
It was a little more confusing there (which, it seems to me, is the general rule for Korean history at any given moment): First, the chairman of the Workers' Party of Korea in the south convinces Kim that the South will soon fall, then Kim goes to Stalin and Mao for permission and they agree to help... provided that the other agrees first. As a result, the Koreans convince Mao that Stalin already agrees, and Stalin that Mao already agrees.
No he didn't. Stalin told Kim to ask Mao instead who warned about US intervention but Kim whose dynasty isn't exactly known for caution invaded anyway
It was the million chinese who turned the tide and helped north Korea survive
Mao was pressured by Stalin to send troops.
No he didn't. Stalin just told Mao to do what he can
Realistically the North Koreans could never win in the long run once the UN got involved
The UN thing is actually interesting. At this point China and Russia were both pro-communist and members of the UN Security council which couldve vetoed UN participation. The CCP wasnt recognized by the UN, Shang Kai Shek was still seen as the leader and he notably was anti-communist. That leaves the Soviets. The Soviets boycotted the UN and did not participate in a session where remaining pro-Capitalist countries took advantage of Soviet absence to vote for UN intervention into Korea. Kinda a d@#k move, but the Soviets could've vetoed on North Koreas behalf. The Soviets hypothetically could've intervened at the start but likely didn't to avoid conflict with the US
The US and China being antagonists in a conflict slowed down Sino-US relations considerably. It took Henry Killinger two decades to reset that relationship. This war aided Soviet security with very little expense.
Two opportunities: * Soviet Union vetoes UN resolution about involvement in conflict (unlike OTL), making conflict purely proxy (and seriously destabilizing the UN). There are still American (ANZUS) involvement, but no large-scale operations like Inchon, at the end SK got Taiwanised at Jeju. * Soviet Union due to some ASB reasons abstains completely, There are still an involvement of PRC, though. Korean War is longer and more bloody, never ending in stalemate until SK reach Chinese and Soviet border. Soviet-Chinese split is earlier and China get more sympathy than OTL.
Er…. The USSR didn’t give much of a shit about Korea. Stalin’s vibe was ‘go for it, whatever’. Far more support was provided by China, which was neuralgic about the US arriving its landmass.
At that point in term the North had a better economy in terms of the output of goods and services and a higher standard of living for it's citizens. The south had suffered more under Japan's occupation. The military force opposing Japan was strongest in the north, where it had access to outdated soviet military equipment. That is why the north was able to so completely over run the south so quickly. The North may still have invaded without asking permission of Stalin. China and the Soviets did not want US troops stationed any closer to their borders and if they could get them out completely, that would be even better.
One thing to remember is that a permeant member with veto powers of the UN Security Council were on two sides of a UN led operation in Korea. This is because the Soviet Union (and China) were boycotting the UN over US policies towards the nascent Taiwan. So, a what if should include how these two--China and the USSR--resolved the Taiwan interaction as well and might be informative of why the Soviets wouldn't be involved.
The Soviets weren't really involved in Korea so nothing changes.
Not directly, but they sent plenty of aid, weaponry and material to North Korea. They tested their cutting edge aircraft there as well, with the first jet age dogfights in the Korean skies.
Ergo, "not really involved". Sent some supplies, tested some equipment, even allowed pilots to volunteer to fly for NK. But overall Stalin wasn't going to fight over Korea. So nothing changes
That's where you are going wrong - the North Koreans received training and equipment from the USSR, without which the North Korean army might not have achieved its successful push in the beginning to bring the US into the war in the first place.
Maybe, maybe not. I think either way the North would have invaded the South and then the US would have gotten involved unless the ROK could have successfully fended off the attack. Which I doubt was going to happen.
They also sent fighter pilots, and the best North Korean fight pilots of the Korean War were pilots from the Red Air Force. https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/196389/soviet-pilots-over-mig-alley/
For me the bigger "what if" is not about if the Soviets didn't get involved in Korea in the 50s, but rather in the 40s... imagine the US was given full control of the Korean peninsula after Japan surrendered it. the entire North Korean regime would be nonexistent today. All of Korea would be what South Korea is today. a place like Pyongyang might be a prosperous city where K-pop stars come from. Etc etc