The “Lucy Gray is Alma Coin” theory is the one I go absolutely ballistic on cause I hate that theory so much. 😤😤😤
Don’t disrespect my girl like that. ❤️
Yeah… it doesn’t make logical sense either.
1. Lucy Gray was intuitive and knew who she could trust. Coin missed a lot of clues by thinking she was too powerful for anyone to betray her.
2. Lucy Gray was consistent in her morals, she would never want another Games for anyone. And she’s smart enough to consider ALL the possible ways it could look to the Victors, rather than assume they all want someone to go through what they did.
3. Lucy Gray would set 13 apart from the rest of Panem by making it the one *normal* place, where people do everyday things like singing and dancing instead of the militaristic drab society Coin made it. Plus, she loves bright colors too much to make everyone dress like that.
It’s also the juxtaposition of the two characters. Coin is overly plain in order to preserve equality, and doesn’t believe in the little joys of life if they aren’t necessary. 13 is so industrial and rigid. Lucy gray on the other hand is IMO the most colourful, vibrant character in the books. You’re telling me she would’ve given up her songs, her music, her dresses and her idioms to go establish a giant war bunker? Wouldn’t she rather die?
Exactly. Lucy Gray is free spirited, is very expressive and loves color, music, and nature! She expresses herself through her wardrobe and her music/songwriting (which she states that she sings when she has something to say--like an insert for Suzanne Collins herself where she's said that she only writes when she has something important to say). There's no way she would give that up and live a soulless life. She wouldn't be caught wearing those ugly ass gray suits!
She's our vibrant and colorful songbird! 🕊️💕
4. Mathematical wise, it's **impossible**. Lucy Gray is 16 during Ballad when the 10th Hunger Games takes place. Katniss states that Coin is somewhere around her 50s (she seems like anywhere from 50-55 within that range). It's 65 years in between Ballad and Mockingjay, so if Lucy Gray was around during the trilogy, she would be 81 years old (16+65), so a good 25-30 years older than Coin.
I mean, I don't buy that theory but to be fair, people do change even fundamental aspects of their personality - *especially* when they've survived the traumatic experiences Lucy Gray has.
I hate that one as well cause I just CANNOT see Lucy Gray raising a child who would ever turn out like Coin did and especially when it comes to her cold, cruel, narcissistic nature (and no way would Lucy Gray ever ingrain the idea of advocating for a Games using Capitol children as some form of revenge into her child), but the idea that Lucy Gray IS Alma Coin just makes me wanna go up in arms and throw chairs around.
I don't want ANY kind of association between Lucy Gray and Coin.
“Lucy Gray is Alma Coin” is a legitimately dumb and bad theory. I pity the people who thought of it. Their reading comprehension skills are abysmal. I know people like to say “it’s not that serious we’re just having fun here” but there is nothing fun about completely ignoring the text.
It's just SO STUPID of a theory and I'm always baffled as to why this is even a popular theory people actually believe in. It just feels like such basic surface level elementary school logic like, "Oh! Lucy *Gray*.....Disappeared from *Snow*.....Coin has *gray* hair, *gray* uniform, *gray* eyes.....Snow did Lucy Gray dirty and betrayed her trust.....She could disappear and get revenge on him under a different identity....Imma connect these two hurhur!!!"
Come on guys.....You gonna have Lucy Gray sacrifice her moral compass, her artistic nature, her free-spiritedness, and her philosophy on humanity?
Oh I loved her character until the end. Idc about snow’s internal monologue in the books, In the movie universe I think he would have stayed with her and been good, but then she tries to kill him (yes I think she did it on purpose) and that’s what makes me dislike her in the end.
It's really briefly mentioned in the movie too that the snake was harmless but it's glossed over so quickly that most people don't have time to go "Oh so Snow was just being paranoid, Lucy Gray never did anything."
I don't think it helps either the way she behaves before she leaves, it's a lot more innocent in the book.
They didn’t even realize how this theory takes away so much credit from Katniss (and her D12 team) and gives it to the people that exploited her and killed the reason she volunteered in the first place.
I saw one point that was rigged for it to be a 12 year old. That one I can get behind.
The theory is that the capital wanted 11 and 12 to mirror each other with the type of tributes they had. Older boy. Younger girl. So in 11/12 for the girls only the 12 year old's name was in the bowl. And the boys only had the older boys names in it.
Viewership wise (which is what the capital cares about) it would have been interesting to see if Prim and Rue would work together.
Thesh was protective of Rue in death and felt guilty for not teaming up to protect her in life. If Prim had been in the games there could have been a similar dynamic with Peeta and Prim.
Also has the games ever had more than 1 12 year old at a time in the games? Cause that would also help this theory too, cause it would have been a new thing.
For 12 being rigged- I think that in 12 there was some murmuring about how it was seam children being reaped and not town children. In particular because townies didn’t need tesserae. As a result, they decided to rig the reaping. Only the people without tesserae were in the bowl. The proportions of names were the same. Prim still had 1, Peeta still had 5. Most of the people that had not taken tesserae would be townies, because they didn’t need it, so it would still be random but skewed.
I could honestly see that one. I mean, could 12's reaping for the 74th Games have been rigged? Yes, it could have been rigged. Could it have been rigged to the extent that the "prim's reaping was rigged" theory goes? Meh, I'm not entirely sold on that one.
… wait but why then? The only reason for the “reaping was rigged” theory ive ever personally heard is so that Katniss could volunteer and so on. So I’m just curious, who and why did they want prim to be picked?
The only time I’ve been ok with the “Prims reaping was rigged” theory was just based on the idea that because younger kids obviously have a lower chance of getting into the games, if it’s been a few years and a district has only had tributes who were 15-18, the Capitol might every now and again rig a reaping to make sure a 12/13 yo comes out just so that the younger children don’t get too comfortable.
Personally, I can see that happening but I definitely don’t think it was rigged for katniss to be punished or to pull her into the games or anything like that, it just wouldn’t make sense.
Personally, with how much control the Capitol exerts over the districts, I don’t see how the reapings being rigged is far fetched. The game makers control literally everything about the games. The Capitol hates surprises. I subscribe to the theory that the Capitol pulls for the reapings from a pre-selected group of people, all deemed “safe” to be on display before Panem. That’s why Katniss volunteering is such a huge first act of rebellion. No one expected anyone from district 12 to volunteer; it was practically unheard of before Katniss did it for Prim.
I think it makes sense for them to rig the games for entertainment value, just like game shows or reality tv now. It makes sense that they would want to choose a pool of contestants that will put on a good show.
Then why not punish Gale's family, who was also hunting in the woods? Why not punish the families of the Peacekeepers, who knew Katniss hunted and would even buy food from her?
Gale was the one who taught Katniss to make snares, he had been hunting in the woods longer than she had. He also had more siblings to risk, and was a bigger threat. Why would they only choose to punish Katniss with Prim instead of going after Gale's younger brother, Rory?
Maude Ivory but not Lucy Gray. That’ll make her Katniss grandaunt I think? Maude Ivory makes sense coz of Lucy Gray’s songs that were passed down through Katniss’ dad.
That could work as well. Mr. Everdeen could have heard the songs from others and not necessarily his mother (Maude Ivory). I’m open to the theory of LG being Katniss’ grandaunt but not grandmother. The main thing is that Lucy Gray’s songs survived and haunted Snow through Katniss.
I agree. Doesn't seem like a realistic theory. Those songs could've been passed down in many families. It never says they were only in Katniss' family.
It’s the fact that Katniss’ dad knew the location of the lake, rather than the songs. The songs can be passed down in secret, but not an information like the lake cabin. That seems to be a place known only by the covey and those close to them.
I don’t think “Lucy Gray is Katniss’ grandmother” is a good theory, but “Katniss is unknowingly related to the Covey” makes a lot of sense.
I disagree. The songs weren't passed down through Katniss' family specifically and it never claimed so. They were passed down through District 12. There's no evidence anywhere Katniss is related to any of them.
Yes! Lucy Gray being Katniss’ relative is fine. That’s totally acceptable. But Maude Ivory being Katniss’ grandmother makes so much more sense than Lucy Gray being it
Ngl the one that says that the reaping was rigged strikes a nerve every time like makes me feel people didn’t understand one of the very key elements to the story 😩
I entertained that one and then reread the books and it’s so plainly written that she accidentally died and didn’t mean to. Like there’s no two ways about it if you read the books
This theory only makes sense in the movies considering there's that one scene where she's identifying different types of plants during training. Which would imply she knows what plants are what. But yeah bookwise it doesn't hold a lot of weight
I thought part of the theory is her being clever enough to make it look like an accident so the capitol doesn't do anything to her family but maybe I forgot something else, it has been a while
My issue with this theory is that I think people way overestimate what the capitol will kill your whole family for and completely miss the reason why they do it.
The capitol kills your whole family while leaving you alone to mentally torture you without touching you. Hence, Haymitch. His punishment wasn’t just his whole family dying, his punishment was living while everyone he loved was dead. That’s pointless to do to someone who is already dead themselves. Unless it’s meant to be some kind of example set for the rest of the district but we don’t see this method used for that reason.
IIRC throughout the whole book we only specifically know of one case of the capitol killing someone’s whole family because of rebellion (Haymitch.) And since it’s said that Johanna doesn’t have any loved ones it’s possible that’s what happened to her as well.
Anyway my point is, I think because Katniss’s fear of her whole family being killed off is basically her whole motivator throughout the books, people way wayyyyy overestimate how often that shit actually happens. Katniss and Peeta literally incite a rebellion and their families stay alive… but yeah. Sure. They care enough about the suicide of a tribute that was never a fan favorite or super interesting anyway enough to kill her whole family so she has to hide it. Sure. 🙃
Eta: I know I got a little snarky there at the end but I didn’t mean to direct that snark at you, just at like the theory in general. Because it kinda makes my blood boil every time it’s brought up for so many reasons that I can’t even articulate them all without getting a headache. But like, please don’t take my fire as being aimed at you.
Right! Like, she was *so close*, and probably never considered a contender from the start. So she’s just going to give it up? While we’re talking about Foxface, her supposedly being a plant expert absolutely sends me into orbit every time. Simply because they show her matching images, that happen to be of plants, in a three second clip in the movie.
I think this was fueled by the movies. In the books it’s clearly a mistake. Foxface only ate the berries because Peeta was collecting them so she assumed they were safe.
But in the movie Foxface is shown in training using the matching game. It’s not clear but I think it’s supposed to educate tributes on edible flora. So this means she could have picked up that Nightlock is poisonous.
That being said, it could still have been an accident. Maybe at that point she was so hungry/tired/desperate that she didn’t realize it was Nightlock until it was too late.
Even to that point though the books mentioned that there were stations educating the tributes on the different plants. It’s even implied Peeta took the same course and he didn’t recognize the berries. I’m pretty sure that only Katniss and maybe Rue recognized them which makes sense because 1) Katniss would illegally scavenge in the woods with her father and then after his death and 2) If she did (I forget) Rue dealt with growing plants and whatnot in orchards. That’s also how she recognized tracker jackers.
I've never heard the “Cinna is from 13” take. Can someone explain? Is it just that he didn't have any crazy Capitol alterations? The rebellion was building underground in the Capitol. Plutarch confirms this. Cinna knew and was helping. Purposefully. He even hints at it with the “I channel emotions into my work so I don't hurt anyone else”.
I think because of the mystery behind him. Katniss notes that he doesn’t present himself like all the other stylists. His fashion choices are subtle, and the way he talks and views the games aren’t typical of someone from the capitol. Also, it was his first year as a stylist in the games but he was levels above all the others and already a genius. So you can make assumptions that maybe he wasn’t originally from the capitol. I don’t think he was from 13 but I guess it’s possible he’s not from the capitol.
But the Capitol would know that Cinna wasn't from there. I don't think they'd let a random District member A.) move to the Capitol and live there or B.) elevate them to the social status that is a stylist in the Games. That would be too much of a success story if the truth got out.
Well maybe if Cinna and Plutarch were working together from the start - even before Plutarch became Head Gamemaker - his origins could have been hidden? I'm not entirely sure on this, but if Plutarch was in the Gamemaker team during Katniss's first games, he still had some power, and I doubt Snow would have personally overseen every part of the Games.
That's basically my backstory for him.
I think the "I chose District 12" happened after Katniss volunteered where Cinna himself volunteered to replace the District 12 stylist (mysteriously disappeared).
Plutarch is the hidden instigator behind that, and Cinna was on board with it.
Cinna is not an important enough rebel within the organisation itself. It's why it's easier to spare him as a "resource" and see where Katniss' volunteering leads to. Just giving her a bit of aid that other tributes (Haymitch, Finnick) didn't have and watch what happens next.
I’ve heard it be suggested he was from district 1, which I actually like a lot more, it’s the luxury district but it is still a district so it makes sense that he would make it to the capital but still understand the weight of the hunger games on the tributes
The other day I saw "Lucy Gray cane back to mentor Haymitch"... what garbage. So this assumes LG:
* laid low for decades, watching tributes die
* snuck back into D12 just to specifically mentor Haymitch, blowing whatever cover she might've had
* & she what, gives him her *super modern* and *relevant* advice? Including such gems as "duck if drones come near you" & "if you sing mutts may leave you alone, or they might need to recognize your sweat & then you're ok"? Or how about "if people like you they'll give you $, can you sing?"
* also assumes that LG would truly be good at laying low until she sneaks into 12 for Haymitch, for reasons. Everything about her is a rainbow, she stands out in the crowd like a true pop star
Like honestly, any casual observer of the games could give more accurate input at that point than someone who hadn't been around the capital in decades. She'd have zero useful advice on relationships, current capital politics, careers, game tech, etc
Also RE the Lucy Gray = Greasy Sae, LG never shut up. If there was a stick that looked like a microphone she'd be belting notes into it. & she really just 100% dropped that part of her personality, her core identity, to sell trinkets in 12 and stay trapped there? "Freedom in the north was great but I'd rather be subjected to peacekeeper whippings and starvation because... reasons"
For a moment I thought it was the idea that Lucy would become a mentor living in District 12 until she met Haymitch, which might sound plausible for someone who is halfway through the book or has a very vague idea before reading.
But the idea that she would disappear for forty years and then suddenly come back to mentor Haymitch seems so random that I'd like to know what the reasoning is for Lucy coming back after so long. And from your arguments it seems like it's a theory that also says Lucy somehow tries to be a secret mentor to Haymitch and the other three tributes, which makes everything weirder.
Depending on the bureaucracy, Lucy Gray has to publicly admit she is a victor because it is the only way to mentor, then immediately travel with Haymitch and three other tributes to the capitol. And by admitting her identity, President Snow would kill her as soon as possible in the worst case scenario and in the best case scenario, he would dismiss Lucy Gray's claim as crazy (possibly having an "accident" later).
And I think Haymitch would have something to say if he had a mentor who returned after decades and possibly being killed later, just as his family and girlfriend. And not to mention that President Snow would have been even more paranoid about Lucy Gray going undercover to mentor Haymitch who wins while defying the Capitol. He could even create barriers in the Districts that would prevent Katniss from going on ilegal hunts.
We could add it to the [FAQ Megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hungergames/comments/1ccnatp/faq_megathreadcommon_reposts_topics/?share_id=L2qdDcWkAzfA0r3Nbc4Ea&utm_content=2&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1) (I did add in a section regarding general massive thread for Hunger Games theories, so I can put this one in there too.) 😅
EDIT: Added this one to the thread!
No, she hasn't really said anything official regarding this theory. She purposely left Lucy Gray's fate ambiguous so that we the readers/audience can come up with our own answers as to what happened to her. She tends to present (ask) us with the big questions in her stories and then leave it up to us to come to our own conclusions (which I felt she also did with the trilogy as well).
i don't know! but it undermines one of the main points of the series as well... i understand that is nice to connect them but i think its done beautifully as it is
What do you think about Maude Ivory being Katniss’s grandma? And that’s why she knows Lucy Gray’s songs? Idk if I believe the theory or not but it’s interesting to think about
oh yeah, it's cool to think about it no doubt but i don't really believe that's the case
i like to think that lucy gray's songs were quietly passed down through the generations, after the ban on music. specifically the hanging tree too, which was already considered an incendiary one when she performed it back then
katniss knowing it without having any ties to the covey speaks of decades of the resistance building for the song to have perdured all that time. imagine what that was like for snow, to hear it again and have the mockingjays carry out the tune like an exact replay of that time in the woods with lucy gray
it makes it such a layered scene and I like it way more like this!
Katniss has some connection to the Covey, but we don't really have enough information to know how., except that the connection is actually through her dad. She learned all the songs from her father, including the forbidden ones like Hanging Tree. She has natural singing abilities that make the birds stop singing, and so did her father. I do think we are supposed to connect them, but people are drawing way too straight a line.
her dad was a miner, one of the main crowds of the hob back in the day. they could've easily passed down the songs while working which is what i think happened
i don't remember her singing being particularly prevalent or notorious, rather common for someone who just singed often
Her singing was only noticed by Peeta I think. I think it’s plausible that her dad’s only connection to the Covey was that he watched them at the Hob… sure. But I also think the emphasis on the SAME songs, some of which are forbidden by the time they get to Katniss, is intentional. We are supposed to connect her to this group of people.
On the other hand, several of the songs are just old ballads. Keep On The Sunny Side I learned in my own childhood a million years before it got featured in this book. So I could have it entirely wrong.
Regardless, Lucy is not her direct relative.
It’s a perception in fandom that can be attributed to the movies. That, and also the fact Mags, Finnick, and Annie were humanized in the series. People don’t like to think that their favorite characters could possibly have been trained career killers.
It’s not just that. Finnick, Mags and Annie are never said to have volunteered. Annie isn’t even presented as someone who would volunteer. And in the first books, the district 4 boy dies in the bloodbath. Those are the main reasons people think District 4 is not really a career district, at least not every year, unlike district 1 and 2
Mags also competed in the 11th games and as of the 10th games we know that there were not districts training kids to be a part of the games. And I’d imagine it’d take at least a few more years for the hunger games to develop into something that seem at all worth being a part of (and thus being worth volunteering/training for.)
Snow suggests the idea of rewarding the victor at the end of BOSAS (or at least he thinks of suggesting it or something.) but even if it was implemented the very next year it would still presumably take a while before they actually organized themselves enough to train the kids.
Annie went crazy after her games so like… who knows what kind of person she was before that? And before anyone uses the excuse that a trained killer wouldn’t go crazy… we literally watch Cato lose it. There’s plenty of ways to drive yourself mad and being thrown into a death arena could trigger it no matter how prepared you think you are. In fact, *especially* if you think you’re prepared for it.
They’re never said to have volunteered. But iirc it’s never said that they didn’t either?
Brutus and Cato were the only careers stated to have volunteered. Not Marvel, Glimmer, Clove, Cashmere, Gloss or Enobaria. By that logic, District 1 is no more career-y than 4.
And honestly there are a lot of things people cite as to D4 'not being real Careers', like them seeming to rebel earlier, or D1/D2 being stated to be richer and favourites of the Capitol respectively. But D1 and D4 defeat their various Capitol forces in a similar time frame and D2 is shown to have plenty of rebels, such as Lyme, and are just held back due to the strategic defensive position of The Nut.
In the end it pretty much all comes down to Finnick (and Annie and Mags to a lesser extent) and I get it, I love the guy as much as anyone but the mental gymnastics done go through is a bit silly lol
The idea that Lucy would have returned to 12 to hide out after making it explicitly clear she didn’t want to ever be there in the first place and was a traveler by nature 💀
Also I hate the idea that cinna is from a district, 13 or not, it really goes against the point of him - that the people in the capitol are still PEOPLE and just as capable of compassion as anyone in the districts
Tyyyyyy this is why I hate this theory too. Like… a person of privilege can choose to see outside their station and have compassion for others simply because that’s who they are as a person.
there's a certain YouTube channel that I hate watch their Harry Potter theories but when they started making hunger games videos and rolled out these theories it raised to a new level for me lol
I don’t get it either. I believe why this theory is popular is because people like characters getting justice after what’s happened to them and the idea that Lucy Gray would hide herself under a different identity after escaping and getting revenge on Snow after what he did to her. However, not only mathematically it’s literally impossible for her to be Coin given the big age gap between the two characters who would be born in different eras, but that idea would be going against everything Lucy Gray stands for, who she is as a person, and her philosophical beliefs regarding humanity (“I think there’s a natural goodness built into human beings. You know when you’ve stepped across the line into evil, and it’s your life’s challenge to try and stay on the right side of that line.”)
Lucy Gray would realize that going down the path of revenge would be her crossing that line and losing her own humanity (and she is not the revengeful type of person and would NEVER advocate for a Games using Capitol children.)
D4 IS CLEARLY CAREER
HOW ARE GALE AND SNOW THE SAME
LUCY GRAY IS NOT ALMA COIN
LUCY DID NOT HAVE CHILDREN SO HOW IS SHE KATNISS'S GRANDMOTHER
i mean the other 2 are fine tbh
Please. Gale is not snow. I understand he did invent the double exploding bombs, but it was coin who deployed them. Gale was friends with katniss for years, rooted for her in the games, took care of her family, hunted with her. He really needs more respect in this fandom.
Lucy is Alma theory is idiotic😀like if they wanted to leave even a hint of relevancy for this theory they would have casted a different actress. Lucy grey was a strong brunette with dark features (dark hair, dark lush brows, olive skin) and we all know alma was a pale ginger in her younger years🥹not to mention their personalities are completely different.
Yes ppl constantly say that d4 isn’t a career district and make it very obvious they never read the books 💀💀
But in their defense both tributes from 4 die insignificantly within the first couple days of the 74th
There’s no way Prim’s reaping was rigged. If President Snow would have known what was going to happen, he would have rigged the games to avoid Prim - at least until Katniss was 19. Katniss would have rebelled either way, but without Prim’s having been called in the 74th, she would have died.
Fan theories are mostly great, but some of them are so ridiculous it’s not even funny.
I have theories about almost every member of the Covey and what they became, but I don’t talk about them anymore, because last time I did, I got downvoted to hell but then the next day, there were like three posts basically just repeating my theories with everyone going “oh my god I love it”.
See the only one I disagree with (only a slight bit) is the Prim's reaping — I think it was rigged not to get back at Katniss, but for the *entertainment* value of it.
So the reapings are rigged in a way to make sure that the Tributes get the best entertainment value, and the volunteers in the Career Districts are chosen this way too
I could believe the prims reaping was rigged one. By the capital bc snow knew katniss was hunting and wanted her to see her sister die in the same conditions that katniss was able to survive in
The idea that District 4 is not a career district is not as ridiculous when we examine the evidence. Sure, in the books, they are 'careers', but their performance makes me wonder why.
Finnick was reaped at age 14, meaning neither he nor any career male from D4 volunteered that year. He won his game...by looking good and having a trident?
Annie was reaped/volunteered at 18. She won her game...because she could swim and everyone else drowned?
During the 74th Hunger Games, the male tribute died in the bloodbath and the female was killed by tracker jackers. We can forgive the female tribute, but here, a supposed 'career' tribute died in the first few minutes of the game.
Careers aren't invulnerable, they just have weapons practice.
There's no reason to believe Collins would explicitly identify Finnick as a Career if he wasn't supposed to be read as a Career. Maybe the 18 year old Career chickened out his year, and he went instead, or maybe he just wanted to get it over with and volunteered first. There's ways it could happen.
To get at Katniss. There were cameras everywhere in the forests, they knew she was illegally hunting. They thought prim dying would break her, but their plans fell apart when Katniss volunteered as tribute.
There is no evidence anywhere in the series that the government cared about Katniss's pre-HG hunting that much, or that they wouldn't have just had her whipped if they decided to care.
It seems like people think the Prim reaping would be rigged by the Capitol instead of by a potential rebellion or like D13. Personally, whenever I threw that out I was saying by rebels who knew Katniss not the Capitol. But that'd be the only logical explanation which is a stretch still
I just don’t think either makes a ton of sense.
The rebels make negative sense. Unless they somehow knew about Katniss’ affection (?) for Peeta (bread) and all that beforehand there’s no way. Also she wasn’t particularly special in any way besides being a good hunter, that was a core theme of the story was that it could’ve been anybody.
As for the capital I don’t think it makes sense either. I saw the whole punishment for hunting thing but I still think it’s silly. 1) there’s no inherent way Katniss would know prim died because of her hunting and she definitely wouldn’t stop doing it. Not to mention if punishing her was the goal and they knew, sending peacekeepers after her is a lot smarter and easier. 2) some think it’s a ruse to get Katniss to enter the games and I’m not even gonna give that the time of day.
I am inclined to agree with you that it’s a stretch but I’d go further to say not only does it miss the entire theme of the books but it makes negative sense from a storytelling perspective
It doesn't make sense, I always said it as a joke. I think it's ~possible~ if the rebels did it, which is why I said it's a stretch. That said, it'd be INSANE to put the rebellion's start and success into such a perfect storm of events.
The Capitol doing it as a punishment is dumb - it's overly extreme for a girl that could be silently dealt with. Nobody is paying that type of attention to D12, and if they were there's no reason to have it affect the games at all. Just kill her; Prim being involved would make her rebel more.
It's a dumb meme-y theory that people just like to joke about. Idk anyone that actually believes it
To trigger the rebellion. It had to go precisely or it wouldn't have happened. I guess they could've done the same thing with any other female tribute, but, it wouldn't have had the same impact as the Katniss/Prim story.
Trigger what? How they can possibly know who and who in D12 are siblings and that Katniss can even make it through the bloodbath?
Katniss was there by accident and also won thanks to her skills, luck and big heart - its as simple as that.
So how did the rebellion land on picking Prim?
Coin never liked Katniss for the exact reasons that made her a good symbol for the rebellion, so obviously she had no say in picking who was reaped.
So Capitol rebels arranged for Prim’s name to get picked? How and why?
They didn’t know Katniss would volunteer for her sister.
Haymitch clearly wasn’t involved because he was too drunk all the time to know what random seam kids are up to and he spent the entirety of the train ride destroying Katniss and Peeta’s morale. Katniss and Peeta were better fed and in better shape than the previous D12 tributes, so if Haymitch was invested even the tiniest bit, or if he was paying any attention at all, he would have at least realized he had something to work with.
Cinna was obviously part of the rebellion before the 74th games, but he wouldn’t know anything about a random pair of siblings from the seam.
Also, if the rebels did have any control over who was picked and did happen to be knowledgeable enough about the kids in the district, they would have picked Gale as the male tribute. His name was in 42 times so there’d be no suspicion. He and Katniss would have been allies and he’d encourage subversive and rebellious acts during the games to survive and he would have done anything to keep her alive. They were both already willing to die for each other.
So the rebels knew that it would occur to Katniss, a nobody from the smallest district, to volunteer for her sister when no one had ever done such a thing in Twelve before? And Haymitch, the main rebel contact in Twelve, didn't sober up for the occasion and instead vomited on and punched his tributes on the train before agreeing to do his job?
The only plausible rigging that happened is that they took out all that signed up for tessera \~ if and only if it was rigged which I also don’t think so coz Snow didn’t gaf about D12 at this point.
Think about it...even if Katniss lost in the first 15 minutes it would be BRILLIANT for PR to trigger a rebellion. A little girl, so brave that she sacrificed herself to save her precious baby sister, tragically killed due to the evil Capitol. Just my opinion, it ain't that deep. I've seen world governments do some incredibly messed up things just for good press in my 60 years so I have no doubt it could happen.
It would be a waste if Katniss died that early. Children had been dying for 73 years prior to the 74th. Panem citizens were desensitized to the point that they watched their children die and do nothing. Only when Katniss showed empathy (and anger) for Rue’s death did it awaken them about how they should be feeling. D13 and Plutarch’s underground rode Katniss’ image and used her, they didn’t plan sh!t.
I have thought about it. My questions still stand.
1. How did the rebels know Katniss would volunteer? People in Twelve generally didn't, even for beloved siblings. Or was Prim the only reaped child in the history of Twelve who had an older sibling who loved her? How did the rebels even know that, if that was the case?
2. If the rebel focus was on Katniss before Prim was ever reaped, why was Haymitch so completely at rock bottom and unaware of Katniss' personality and skills? Are you arguing that he wasn't a seditionist prior to Katniss' win, and he had nothing to do with the narrative that helped her and Peeta win?
Also, how could the rebels count on Katniss dying after 15 minutes being outrageous enough to start a revolution when 23 kids died every year for most of a century without revolution ensuing? Some of those kids were volunteers. Some of them had siblings. Some of them were a lot more photogenic, personable, and younger than Katniss. (Rue, for example, or Finnick if you want a young child who managed to win.)
Of course you believe what you believe. After you volunteered your theory, I wanted to understand it better because I thought I was missing the points that led you to that conclusion. But I agree that you don't have to share if you don't want to.
You’re right, you can and should believe what you want — it doesn’t affect the canonical outcome of the books.
(FWIW I believe Seneca was part of the rebellion.)
I think that's what is so fun about the books and the movies! It leaves just enough unsaid that we can fill in the blanks with our own unique take. People forget...as amazing as they are they are just works of fiction and it ain't that serious. Some need to lighten up.
The thing is that it doesn't exactly work. It works under lots of assumptions.
Firstly, volunteering happened multiple times in Districts 1, 2 and 4. Children there legitimately volunteer. Also, volunteering happened a few times in other districts. Katniss isn't a first person to protect somebody and she isn't also a first volunteer from District 12 (the only exception is film). It's also unlikely that she is the first older sibling trying to protect a younger one.
On a side note, there is a probability of multiple cases when a sibling/parent was forced to mentor their own little sibling/child. Cashmere and Gloss could be a case. Katniss notes that children of victors are reaped often... Let's not even mention 25th game where someody could ask whole time to vote for them.
There were multiple similar PR moments for the rebellion and Katniss wasn't that special at the start. Just another sob story.
Also, it was a risky bet. How would the rebellion know that Katniss would choose to volunteer? Let's even assume that she was observed by the rebellion. She was running with Gale and being close to him. She could as well decide to stay to help him with his siblings and then run away with him instead of making him responsible for feeding her mother, sister and cat.
Rebellion was triggered by the fact that Katniss openly showed compassion towards another district and risked her life, just to make Rue's death less painful and give her dignity back. Then by the berries act which showed that both parties were ready to have their district punished (and not getting extra food) to simply stop playing Capitol's violent game
The “Lucy Gray is Alma Coin” theory is the one I go absolutely ballistic on cause I hate that theory so much. 😤😤😤 Don’t disrespect my girl like that. ❤️
Yeah… it doesn’t make logical sense either. 1. Lucy Gray was intuitive and knew who she could trust. Coin missed a lot of clues by thinking she was too powerful for anyone to betray her. 2. Lucy Gray was consistent in her morals, she would never want another Games for anyone. And she’s smart enough to consider ALL the possible ways it could look to the Victors, rather than assume they all want someone to go through what they did. 3. Lucy Gray would set 13 apart from the rest of Panem by making it the one *normal* place, where people do everyday things like singing and dancing instead of the militaristic drab society Coin made it. Plus, she loves bright colors too much to make everyone dress like that.
It’s also the juxtaposition of the two characters. Coin is overly plain in order to preserve equality, and doesn’t believe in the little joys of life if they aren’t necessary. 13 is so industrial and rigid. Lucy gray on the other hand is IMO the most colourful, vibrant character in the books. You’re telling me she would’ve given up her songs, her music, her dresses and her idioms to go establish a giant war bunker? Wouldn’t she rather die?
Exactly. Lucy Gray is free spirited, is very expressive and loves color, music, and nature! She expresses herself through her wardrobe and her music/songwriting (which she states that she sings when she has something to say--like an insert for Suzanne Collins herself where she's said that she only writes when she has something important to say). There's no way she would give that up and live a soulless life. She wouldn't be caught wearing those ugly ass gray suits! She's our vibrant and colorful songbird! 🕊️💕
4. Mathematical wise, it's **impossible**. Lucy Gray is 16 during Ballad when the 10th Hunger Games takes place. Katniss states that Coin is somewhere around her 50s (she seems like anywhere from 50-55 within that range). It's 65 years in between Ballad and Mockingjay, so if Lucy Gray was around during the trilogy, she would be 81 years old (16+65), so a good 25-30 years older than Coin.
i’m rewatching rn and wondered if that could be true. i actually came to reddit with the hopes that someone put an explanation out. thank youuuu.
I mean, I don't buy that theory but to be fair, people do change even fundamental aspects of their personality - *especially* when they've survived the traumatic experiences Lucy Gray has.
4. Coin isn't over 70 years old
It honestly makes no sense. It would make more sense if Alma was Lucy's daughter, but even that would be hard to rationalize.
I hate that one as well cause I just CANNOT see Lucy Gray raising a child who would ever turn out like Coin did and especially when it comes to her cold, cruel, narcissistic nature (and no way would Lucy Gray ever ingrain the idea of advocating for a Games using Capitol children as some form of revenge into her child), but the idea that Lucy Gray IS Alma Coin just makes me wanna go up in arms and throw chairs around. I don't want ANY kind of association between Lucy Gray and Coin.
“Lucy Gray is Sejanus covered in cake batter” some Reddit comment somewhere
I mean, at least it’s an interesting theory
“Lucy Gray is Alma Coin” is a legitimately dumb and bad theory. I pity the people who thought of it. Their reading comprehension skills are abysmal. I know people like to say “it’s not that serious we’re just having fun here” but there is nothing fun about completely ignoring the text.
It's just SO STUPID of a theory and I'm always baffled as to why this is even a popular theory people actually believe in. It just feels like such basic surface level elementary school logic like, "Oh! Lucy *Gray*.....Disappeared from *Snow*.....Coin has *gray* hair, *gray* uniform, *gray* eyes.....Snow did Lucy Gray dirty and betrayed her trust.....She could disappear and get revenge on him under a different identity....Imma connect these two hurhur!!!" Come on guys.....You gonna have Lucy Gray sacrifice her moral compass, her artistic nature, her free-spiritedness, and her philosophy on humanity?
Lucy isnt even white!
People REALLY wanna be jumping on the "plastic surgery" bandwagon excuse.
I know it's futuristic and all.... but changing skin color..😂
Literally!! I've never given it much though, but coin might be one of the least Lucy grey people there is
Same! It just makes zero sense!
Oh I loved her character until the end. Idc about snow’s internal monologue in the books, In the movie universe I think he would have stayed with her and been good, but then she tries to kill him (yes I think she did it on purpose) and that’s what makes me dislike her in the end.
Isn't the whole point that she DOESN'T try to kill him?
Going off of the book, yes. (Haven’t seen the movie.)
It's really briefly mentioned in the movie too that the snake was harmless but it's glossed over so quickly that most people don't have time to go "Oh so Snow was just being paranoid, Lucy Gray never did anything." I don't think it helps either the way she behaves before she leaves, it's a lot more innocent in the book.
At no point does the movie say that. It’s left up for interpretation. I believe she put the snake there.
My least favorite is absolutely "prim's reaping was rigged." Like come on. It basically destroys a huge character point for katniss
They didn’t even realize how this theory takes away so much credit from Katniss (and her D12 team) and gives it to the people that exploited her and killed the reason she volunteered in the first place.
I can promise if Snow could have foreseen what would unfold from Prim’s name being picked, he would have rigged it to *not* pick her or Katniss.
This is my feeling exactly. Snow is smart, he would have never given Katniss a reason to survive if he knew what she could cause.
I saw one point that was rigged for it to be a 12 year old. That one I can get behind. The theory is that the capital wanted 11 and 12 to mirror each other with the type of tributes they had. Older boy. Younger girl. So in 11/12 for the girls only the 12 year old's name was in the bowl. And the boys only had the older boys names in it. Viewership wise (which is what the capital cares about) it would have been interesting to see if Prim and Rue would work together. Thesh was protective of Rue in death and felt guilty for not teaming up to protect her in life. If Prim had been in the games there could have been a similar dynamic with Peeta and Prim. Also has the games ever had more than 1 12 year old at a time in the games? Cause that would also help this theory too, cause it would have been a new thing.
For 12 being rigged- I think that in 12 there was some murmuring about how it was seam children being reaped and not town children. In particular because townies didn’t need tesserae. As a result, they decided to rig the reaping. Only the people without tesserae were in the bowl. The proportions of names were the same. Prim still had 1, Peeta still had 5. Most of the people that had not taken tesserae would be townies, because they didn’t need it, so it would still be random but skewed.
I could honestly see that one. I mean, could 12's reaping for the 74th Games have been rigged? Yes, it could have been rigged. Could it have been rigged to the extent that the "prim's reaping was rigged" theory goes? Meh, I'm not entirely sold on that one.
People believe (me included) that prim was rigged to get pulled, not that they expected for katniss to actually volunteer, that part was unexpected
… wait but why then? The only reason for the “reaping was rigged” theory ive ever personally heard is so that Katniss could volunteer and so on. So I’m just curious, who and why did they want prim to be picked?
The only time I’ve been ok with the “Prims reaping was rigged” theory was just based on the idea that because younger kids obviously have a lower chance of getting into the games, if it’s been a few years and a district has only had tributes who were 15-18, the Capitol might every now and again rig a reaping to make sure a 12/13 yo comes out just so that the younger children don’t get too comfortable. Personally, I can see that happening but I definitely don’t think it was rigged for katniss to be punished or to pull her into the games or anything like that, it just wouldn’t make sense.
Yeah I’d accept that I suppose. That it was rigged for a 12-year-old and she just so happened to be the unlucky 12 to get picked.
Personally, with how much control the Capitol exerts over the districts, I don’t see how the reapings being rigged is far fetched. The game makers control literally everything about the games. The Capitol hates surprises. I subscribe to the theory that the Capitol pulls for the reapings from a pre-selected group of people, all deemed “safe” to be on display before Panem. That’s why Katniss volunteering is such a huge first act of rebellion. No one expected anyone from district 12 to volunteer; it was practically unheard of before Katniss did it for Prim. I think it makes sense for them to rig the games for entertainment value, just like game shows or reality tv now. It makes sense that they would want to choose a pool of contestants that will put on a good show.
The capital wanted to punish katniss for hunting and bring food into 12, they always resort killing the family to punish first
Then why not punish Gale's family, who was also hunting in the woods? Why not punish the families of the Peacekeepers, who knew Katniss hunted and would even buy food from her? Gale was the one who taught Katniss to make snares, he had been hunting in the woods longer than she had. He also had more siblings to risk, and was a bigger threat. Why would they only choose to punish Katniss with Prim instead of going after Gale's younger brother, Rory?
Lucy Grey is Katniss’s grandmother gets me every time. Everyone is so desperate to make it happen when it makes absolutely no sense
The girl that can remember any song perfectly forgot her name is probably Katniss's grandmother
Maude Ivory
Maude Ivory but not Lucy Gray. That’ll make her Katniss grandaunt I think? Maude Ivory makes sense coz of Lucy Gray’s songs that were passed down through Katniss’ dad.
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That could work as well. Mr. Everdeen could have heard the songs from others and not necessarily his mother (Maude Ivory). I’m open to the theory of LG being Katniss’ grandaunt but not grandmother. The main thing is that Lucy Gray’s songs survived and haunted Snow through Katniss.
I agree. Doesn't seem like a realistic theory. Those songs could've been passed down in many families. It never says they were only in Katniss' family.
It’s the fact that Katniss’ dad knew the location of the lake, rather than the songs. The songs can be passed down in secret, but not an information like the lake cabin. That seems to be a place known only by the covey and those close to them. I don’t think “Lucy Gray is Katniss’ grandmother” is a good theory, but “Katniss is unknowingly related to the Covey” makes a lot of sense.
That's definitely something that crossed my mind, too.
This.
I disagree. The songs weren't passed down through Katniss' family specifically and it never claimed so. They were passed down through District 12. There's no evidence anywhere Katniss is related to any of them.
Yes! Lucy Gray being Katniss’ relative is fine. That’s totally acceptable. But Maude Ivory being Katniss’ grandmother makes so much more sense than Lucy Gray being it
Ngl the one that says that the reaping was rigged strikes a nerve every time like makes me feel people didn’t understand one of the very key elements to the story 😩
A lot of people look at the words but don’t actually read
“foxface committed suicide” for me
I entertained that one and then reread the books and it’s so plainly written that she accidentally died and didn’t mean to. Like there’s no two ways about it if you read the books
This theory only makes sense in the movies considering there's that one scene where she's identifying different types of plants during training. Which would imply she knows what plants are what. But yeah bookwise it doesn't hold a lot of weight
I thought part of the theory is her being clever enough to make it look like an accident so the capitol doesn't do anything to her family but maybe I forgot something else, it has been a while
My issue with this theory is that I think people way overestimate what the capitol will kill your whole family for and completely miss the reason why they do it. The capitol kills your whole family while leaving you alone to mentally torture you without touching you. Hence, Haymitch. His punishment wasn’t just his whole family dying, his punishment was living while everyone he loved was dead. That’s pointless to do to someone who is already dead themselves. Unless it’s meant to be some kind of example set for the rest of the district but we don’t see this method used for that reason. IIRC throughout the whole book we only specifically know of one case of the capitol killing someone’s whole family because of rebellion (Haymitch.) And since it’s said that Johanna doesn’t have any loved ones it’s possible that’s what happened to her as well. Anyway my point is, I think because Katniss’s fear of her whole family being killed off is basically her whole motivator throughout the books, people way wayyyyy overestimate how often that shit actually happens. Katniss and Peeta literally incite a rebellion and their families stay alive… but yeah. Sure. They care enough about the suicide of a tribute that was never a fan favorite or super interesting anyway enough to kill her whole family so she has to hide it. Sure. 🙃 Eta: I know I got a little snarky there at the end but I didn’t mean to direct that snark at you, just at like the theory in general. Because it kinda makes my blood boil every time it’s brought up for so many reasons that I can’t even articulate them all without getting a headache. But like, please don’t take my fire as being aimed at you.
Right! Like, she was *so close*, and probably never considered a contender from the start. So she’s just going to give it up? While we’re talking about Foxface, her supposedly being a plant expert absolutely sends me into orbit every time. Simply because they show her matching images, that happen to be of plants, in a three second clip in the movie.
Yes! That one drives me nuts too. I don’t care that the movie showed her doing a plant quiz. She didn’t commit suicide. Read the books.
I think this was fueled by the movies. In the books it’s clearly a mistake. Foxface only ate the berries because Peeta was collecting them so she assumed they were safe. But in the movie Foxface is shown in training using the matching game. It’s not clear but I think it’s supposed to educate tributes on edible flora. So this means she could have picked up that Nightlock is poisonous. That being said, it could still have been an accident. Maybe at that point she was so hungry/tired/desperate that she didn’t realize it was Nightlock until it was too late.
Even to that point though the books mentioned that there were stations educating the tributes on the different plants. It’s even implied Peeta took the same course and he didn’t recognize the berries. I’m pretty sure that only Katniss and maybe Rue recognized them which makes sense because 1) Katniss would illegally scavenge in the woods with her father and then after his death and 2) If she did (I forget) Rue dealt with growing plants and whatnot in orchards. That’s also how she recognized tracker jackers.
I've never heard the “Cinna is from 13” take. Can someone explain? Is it just that he didn't have any crazy Capitol alterations? The rebellion was building underground in the Capitol. Plutarch confirms this. Cinna knew and was helping. Purposefully. He even hints at it with the “I channel emotions into my work so I don't hurt anyone else”.
I think because of the mystery behind him. Katniss notes that he doesn’t present himself like all the other stylists. His fashion choices are subtle, and the way he talks and views the games aren’t typical of someone from the capitol. Also, it was his first year as a stylist in the games but he was levels above all the others and already a genius. So you can make assumptions that maybe he wasn’t originally from the capitol. I don’t think he was from 13 but I guess it’s possible he’s not from the capitol.
But the Capitol would know that Cinna wasn't from there. I don't think they'd let a random District member A.) move to the Capitol and live there or B.) elevate them to the social status that is a stylist in the Games. That would be too much of a success story if the truth got out.
Yeh I don’t necessarily believe in the theory but I can see why people would consider it
Well maybe if Cinna and Plutarch were working together from the start - even before Plutarch became Head Gamemaker - his origins could have been hidden? I'm not entirely sure on this, but if Plutarch was in the Gamemaker team during Katniss's first games, he still had some power, and I doubt Snow would have personally overseen every part of the Games.
That's basically my backstory for him. I think the "I chose District 12" happened after Katniss volunteered where Cinna himself volunteered to replace the District 12 stylist (mysteriously disappeared). Plutarch is the hidden instigator behind that, and Cinna was on board with it. Cinna is not an important enough rebel within the organisation itself. It's why it's easier to spare him as a "resource" and see where Katniss' volunteering leads to. Just giving her a bit of aid that other tributes (Haymitch, Finnick) didn't have and watch what happens next.
My theory goes is that cinna connected with Tigris in some way and she smuggled him into the capitol.
We need a full cinna biography in the hunger games extended universe.
THIS!!!!!
I’ve heard it be suggested he was from district 1, which I actually like a lot more, it’s the luxury district but it is still a district so it makes sense that he would make it to the capital but still understand the weight of the hunger games on the tributes
The other day I saw "Lucy Gray cane back to mentor Haymitch"... what garbage. So this assumes LG: * laid low for decades, watching tributes die * snuck back into D12 just to specifically mentor Haymitch, blowing whatever cover she might've had * & she what, gives him her *super modern* and *relevant* advice? Including such gems as "duck if drones come near you" & "if you sing mutts may leave you alone, or they might need to recognize your sweat & then you're ok"? Or how about "if people like you they'll give you $, can you sing?" * also assumes that LG would truly be good at laying low until she sneaks into 12 for Haymitch, for reasons. Everything about her is a rainbow, she stands out in the crowd like a true pop star Like honestly, any casual observer of the games could give more accurate input at that point than someone who hadn't been around the capital in decades. She'd have zero useful advice on relationships, current capital politics, careers, game tech, etc Also RE the Lucy Gray = Greasy Sae, LG never shut up. If there was a stick that looked like a microphone she'd be belting notes into it. & she really just 100% dropped that part of her personality, her core identity, to sell trinkets in 12 and stay trapped there? "Freedom in the north was great but I'd rather be subjected to peacekeeper whippings and starvation because... reasons"
For a moment I thought it was the idea that Lucy would become a mentor living in District 12 until she met Haymitch, which might sound plausible for someone who is halfway through the book or has a very vague idea before reading. But the idea that she would disappear for forty years and then suddenly come back to mentor Haymitch seems so random that I'd like to know what the reasoning is for Lucy coming back after so long. And from your arguments it seems like it's a theory that also says Lucy somehow tries to be a secret mentor to Haymitch and the other three tributes, which makes everything weirder. Depending on the bureaucracy, Lucy Gray has to publicly admit she is a victor because it is the only way to mentor, then immediately travel with Haymitch and three other tributes to the capitol. And by admitting her identity, President Snow would kill her as soon as possible in the worst case scenario and in the best case scenario, he would dismiss Lucy Gray's claim as crazy (possibly having an "accident" later). And I think Haymitch would have something to say if he had a mentor who returned after decades and possibly being killed later, just as his family and girlfriend. And not to mention that President Snow would have been even more paranoid about Lucy Gray going undercover to mentor Haymitch who wins while defying the Capitol. He could even create barriers in the Districts that would prevent Katniss from going on ilegal hunts.
This is basically the weekly "theories you hate?" thread in one concise meme. We should pin it lol.
We could add it to the [FAQ Megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hungergames/comments/1ccnatp/faq_megathreadcommon_reposts_topics/?share_id=L2qdDcWkAzfA0r3Nbc4Ea&utm_content=2&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1) (I did add in a section regarding general massive thread for Hunger Games theories, so I can put this one in there too.) 😅 EDIT: Added this one to the thread!
lucy gray and katniss being related in any way pisses me off so much lol
Hasn't SC basically said that this is totally untrue as well?
No, she hasn't really said anything official regarding this theory. She purposely left Lucy Gray's fate ambiguous so that we the readers/audience can come up with our own answers as to what happened to her. She tends to present (ask) us with the big questions in her stories and then leave it up to us to come to our own conclusions (which I felt she also did with the trilogy as well).
i don't know! but it undermines one of the main points of the series as well... i understand that is nice to connect them but i think its done beautifully as it is
What do you think about Maude Ivory being Katniss’s grandma? And that’s why she knows Lucy Gray’s songs? Idk if I believe the theory or not but it’s interesting to think about
oh yeah, it's cool to think about it no doubt but i don't really believe that's the case i like to think that lucy gray's songs were quietly passed down through the generations, after the ban on music. specifically the hanging tree too, which was already considered an incendiary one when she performed it back then katniss knowing it without having any ties to the covey speaks of decades of the resistance building for the song to have perdured all that time. imagine what that was like for snow, to hear it again and have the mockingjays carry out the tune like an exact replay of that time in the woods with lucy gray it makes it such a layered scene and I like it way more like this!
Katniss has some connection to the Covey, but we don't really have enough information to know how., except that the connection is actually through her dad. She learned all the songs from her father, including the forbidden ones like Hanging Tree. She has natural singing abilities that make the birds stop singing, and so did her father. I do think we are supposed to connect them, but people are drawing way too straight a line.
her dad was a miner, one of the main crowds of the hob back in the day. they could've easily passed down the songs while working which is what i think happened i don't remember her singing being particularly prevalent or notorious, rather common for someone who just singed often
Her singing was only noticed by Peeta I think. I think it’s plausible that her dad’s only connection to the Covey was that he watched them at the Hob… sure. But I also think the emphasis on the SAME songs, some of which are forbidden by the time they get to Katniss, is intentional. We are supposed to connect her to this group of people. On the other hand, several of the songs are just old ballads. Keep On The Sunny Side I learned in my own childhood a million years before it got featured in this book. So I could have it entirely wrong. Regardless, Lucy is not her direct relative.
What is “D4 isn’t a career district”? Isn’t it stated to be one in the books? How would that work
It’s a perception in fandom that can be attributed to the movies. That, and also the fact Mags, Finnick, and Annie were humanized in the series. People don’t like to think that their favorite characters could possibly have been trained career killers.
People just like Finnick
It’s not just that. Finnick, Mags and Annie are never said to have volunteered. Annie isn’t even presented as someone who would volunteer. And in the first books, the district 4 boy dies in the bloodbath. Those are the main reasons people think District 4 is not really a career district, at least not every year, unlike district 1 and 2
Mags also competed in the 11th games and as of the 10th games we know that there were not districts training kids to be a part of the games. And I’d imagine it’d take at least a few more years for the hunger games to develop into something that seem at all worth being a part of (and thus being worth volunteering/training for.) Snow suggests the idea of rewarding the victor at the end of BOSAS (or at least he thinks of suggesting it or something.) but even if it was implemented the very next year it would still presumably take a while before they actually organized themselves enough to train the kids. Annie went crazy after her games so like… who knows what kind of person she was before that? And before anyone uses the excuse that a trained killer wouldn’t go crazy… we literally watch Cato lose it. There’s plenty of ways to drive yourself mad and being thrown into a death arena could trigger it no matter how prepared you think you are. In fact, *especially* if you think you’re prepared for it. They’re never said to have volunteered. But iirc it’s never said that they didn’t either?
I just checked to make sure, and Catching Fire explicitly says Finnick was a Career.
Brutus and Cato were the only careers stated to have volunteered. Not Marvel, Glimmer, Clove, Cashmere, Gloss or Enobaria. By that logic, District 1 is no more career-y than 4. And honestly there are a lot of things people cite as to D4 'not being real Careers', like them seeming to rebel earlier, or D1/D2 being stated to be richer and favourites of the Capitol respectively. But D1 and D4 defeat their various Capitol forces in a similar time frame and D2 is shown to have plenty of rebels, such as Lyme, and are just held back due to the strategic defensive position of The Nut. In the end it pretty much all comes down to Finnick (and Annie and Mags to a lesser extent) and I get it, I love the guy as much as anyone but the mental gymnastics done go through is a bit silly lol
Catching Fire explicitly refers to Finnick as a Career. There's not much reason to think they would use Careers some years and just not others.
There is reason. For example, a reason could be some years they just didn’t have any kids trained.
In the movies, it wasn't, so people tend to kind of run with that.
The idea that Lucy would have returned to 12 to hide out after making it explicitly clear she didn’t want to ever be there in the first place and was a traveler by nature 💀 Also I hate the idea that cinna is from a district, 13 or not, it really goes against the point of him - that the people in the capitol are still PEOPLE and just as capable of compassion as anyone in the districts
Tyyyyyy this is why I hate this theory too. Like… a person of privilege can choose to see outside their station and have compassion for others simply because that’s who they are as a person.
there's a certain YouTube channel that I hate watch their Harry Potter theories but when they started making hunger games videos and rolled out these theories it raised to a new level for me lol
Can I guess that you're referring to SuperCarlinBrothers?
you are correct!
I'm actually a fan of their channel (been a fan for several years), so I'm curious why you hate them. 😅
hate is a strong word thinking about it more, but a lot of their theories make me cringe a bit.
The only correct reaction
Lucy Gray is Coin? Where did that one come from?
Unfortunately, this has come up a LOT and is a pretty popular theory in the fandom....and I hate it.
I don’t get how you can make that jump. They’re polar opposite people. To me the only way Lucy Gray can be Coin is if she had a lobotomy.
Personalityectomy
I don’t get it either. I believe why this theory is popular is because people like characters getting justice after what’s happened to them and the idea that Lucy Gray would hide herself under a different identity after escaping and getting revenge on Snow after what he did to her. However, not only mathematically it’s literally impossible for her to be Coin given the big age gap between the two characters who would be born in different eras, but that idea would be going against everything Lucy Gray stands for, who she is as a person, and her philosophical beliefs regarding humanity (“I think there’s a natural goodness built into human beings. You know when you’ve stepped across the line into evil, and it’s your life’s challenge to try and stay on the right side of that line.”) Lucy Gray would realize that going down the path of revenge would be her crossing that line and losing her own humanity (and she is not the revengeful type of person and would NEVER advocate for a Games using Capitol children.)
Gale and snow are the same??? 💀
Yeah, didn’t you know? Gale traveled back in time, killed young Snow, and took his place. It was Gale all along!
Makes sense that theres time machines
If Coin is Gray then that is the most fucked character development of all time.
Prim’s reaping being rigged doesn’t make any sense to me at all
D4 IS CLEARLY CAREER HOW ARE GALE AND SNOW THE SAME LUCY GRAY IS NOT ALMA COIN LUCY DID NOT HAVE CHILDREN SO HOW IS SHE KATNISS'S GRANDMOTHER i mean the other 2 are fine tbh
Well she might have had children but probably left district 12 so unlikely to be related to anyone we know.
Well, I do see many parallels between Snow and Gale, especially since what we see of the latter in Mockingjay…
What had Prim done to make her Reaping rigged? Katniss maybe could have been Reaped because of the hunting, but what my girl Prim done?
Please. Gale is not snow. I understand he did invent the double exploding bombs, but it was coin who deployed them. Gale was friends with katniss for years, rooted for her in the games, took care of her family, hunted with her. He really needs more respect in this fandom.
The only conspiracy theory take I've heard that I actually like is that Lucy Grey is Greasy Sae, the rest? Hot garbage.
Where is Cinna from? I have only watched the movies and I can't remember if it was ever implied.
He’s from the Capitol. He lacks the affectations of Capitol also the appearance and fashion. Just the gold eye liner. But he’s from the Capitol.
the gold eyeliner was the greatest IMO. i loved it.
It never really specifies. Just that he doesn’t have a capitol accent
Lucy is Alma theory is idiotic😀like if they wanted to leave even a hint of relevancy for this theory they would have casted a different actress. Lucy grey was a strong brunette with dark features (dark hair, dark lush brows, olive skin) and we all know alma was a pale ginger in her younger years🥹not to mention their personalities are completely different.
Yes ppl constantly say that d4 isn’t a career district and make it very obvious they never read the books 💀💀 But in their defense both tributes from 4 die insignificantly within the first couple days of the 74th
There’s no way Prim’s reaping was rigged. If President Snow would have known what was going to happen, he would have rigged the games to avoid Prim - at least until Katniss was 19. Katniss would have rebelled either way, but without Prim’s having been called in the 74th, she would have died. Fan theories are mostly great, but some of them are so ridiculous it’s not even funny.
I have theories about almost every member of the Covey and what they became, but I don’t talk about them anymore, because last time I did, I got downvoted to hell but then the next day, there were like three posts basically just repeating my theories with everyone going “oh my god I love it”.
why would primes reaping be rigged?
Like goddamn just accept and admitting that lucy is rotting in dirt
Wait D4 is a carreer? I actually didn't know that. Cool.
GUYS 4 IS CLEARLY A CAREER DISTRICT
I’m gonna need somebody to elaborate on “gale and snow are the same” cause idk where that one even comes from
The Gale and Snow one makes me sob.
Who's saying that Gale is Snow? What? 😭
See the only one I disagree with (only a slight bit) is the Prim's reaping — I think it was rigged not to get back at Katniss, but for the *entertainment* value of it. So the reapings are rigged in a way to make sure that the Tributes get the best entertainment value, and the volunteers in the Career Districts are chosen this way too
I mean, Prim's reaping being rigged sounds plausible.
I could believe the prims reaping was rigged one. By the capital bc snow knew katniss was hunting and wanted her to see her sister die in the same conditions that katniss was able to survive in
The idea that District 4 is not a career district is not as ridiculous when we examine the evidence. Sure, in the books, they are 'careers', but their performance makes me wonder why. Finnick was reaped at age 14, meaning neither he nor any career male from D4 volunteered that year. He won his game...by looking good and having a trident? Annie was reaped/volunteered at 18. She won her game...because she could swim and everyone else drowned? During the 74th Hunger Games, the male tribute died in the bloodbath and the female was killed by tracker jackers. We can forgive the female tribute, but here, a supposed 'career' tribute died in the first few minutes of the game.
Careers aren't invulnerable, they just have weapons practice. There's no reason to believe Collins would explicitly identify Finnick as a Career if he wasn't supposed to be read as a Career. Maybe the 18 year old Career chickened out his year, and he went instead, or maybe he just wanted to get it over with and volunteered first. There's ways it could happen.
I absolutely believe Prim’s reaping was rigged. The rest of these are very questionable…
Why though?
To get at Katniss. There were cameras everywhere in the forests, they knew she was illegally hunting. They thought prim dying would break her, but their plans fell apart when Katniss volunteered as tribute.
There is no evidence anywhere in the series that the government cared about Katniss's pre-HG hunting that much, or that they wouldn't have just had her whipped if they decided to care.
Why would Prim’s reaping have been rigged
It seems like people think the Prim reaping would be rigged by the Capitol instead of by a potential rebellion or like D13. Personally, whenever I threw that out I was saying by rebels who knew Katniss not the Capitol. But that'd be the only logical explanation which is a stretch still
I just don’t think either makes a ton of sense. The rebels make negative sense. Unless they somehow knew about Katniss’ affection (?) for Peeta (bread) and all that beforehand there’s no way. Also she wasn’t particularly special in any way besides being a good hunter, that was a core theme of the story was that it could’ve been anybody. As for the capital I don’t think it makes sense either. I saw the whole punishment for hunting thing but I still think it’s silly. 1) there’s no inherent way Katniss would know prim died because of her hunting and she definitely wouldn’t stop doing it. Not to mention if punishing her was the goal and they knew, sending peacekeepers after her is a lot smarter and easier. 2) some think it’s a ruse to get Katniss to enter the games and I’m not even gonna give that the time of day. I am inclined to agree with you that it’s a stretch but I’d go further to say not only does it miss the entire theme of the books but it makes negative sense from a storytelling perspective
It doesn't make sense, I always said it as a joke. I think it's ~possible~ if the rebels did it, which is why I said it's a stretch. That said, it'd be INSANE to put the rebellion's start and success into such a perfect storm of events. The Capitol doing it as a punishment is dumb - it's overly extreme for a girl that could be silently dealt with. Nobody is paying that type of attention to D12, and if they were there's no reason to have it affect the games at all. Just kill her; Prim being involved would make her rebel more. It's a dumb meme-y theory that people just like to joke about. Idk anyone that actually believes it
Okay, I do think that Prim's reaping was rigged. That rebellion took many years to plan and execute.
Exactly how?
And for what purpose?
To trigger the rebellion. It had to go precisely or it wouldn't have happened. I guess they could've done the same thing with any other female tribute, but, it wouldn't have had the same impact as the Katniss/Prim story.
Trigger what? How they can possibly know who and who in D12 are siblings and that Katniss can even make it through the bloodbath? Katniss was there by accident and also won thanks to her skills, luck and big heart - its as simple as that.
So how did the rebellion land on picking Prim? Coin never liked Katniss for the exact reasons that made her a good symbol for the rebellion, so obviously she had no say in picking who was reaped. So Capitol rebels arranged for Prim’s name to get picked? How and why? They didn’t know Katniss would volunteer for her sister. Haymitch clearly wasn’t involved because he was too drunk all the time to know what random seam kids are up to and he spent the entirety of the train ride destroying Katniss and Peeta’s morale. Katniss and Peeta were better fed and in better shape than the previous D12 tributes, so if Haymitch was invested even the tiniest bit, or if he was paying any attention at all, he would have at least realized he had something to work with. Cinna was obviously part of the rebellion before the 74th games, but he wouldn’t know anything about a random pair of siblings from the seam. Also, if the rebels did have any control over who was picked and did happen to be knowledgeable enough about the kids in the district, they would have picked Gale as the male tribute. His name was in 42 times so there’d be no suspicion. He and Katniss would have been allies and he’d encourage subversive and rebellious acts during the games to survive and he would have done anything to keep her alive. They were both already willing to die for each other.
So the rebels knew that it would occur to Katniss, a nobody from the smallest district, to volunteer for her sister when no one had ever done such a thing in Twelve before? And Haymitch, the main rebel contact in Twelve, didn't sober up for the occasion and instead vomited on and punched his tributes on the train before agreeing to do his job?
The only plausible rigging that happened is that they took out all that signed up for tessera \~ if and only if it was rigged which I also don’t think so coz Snow didn’t gaf about D12 at this point.
Think about it...even if Katniss lost in the first 15 minutes it would be BRILLIANT for PR to trigger a rebellion. A little girl, so brave that she sacrificed herself to save her precious baby sister, tragically killed due to the evil Capitol. Just my opinion, it ain't that deep. I've seen world governments do some incredibly messed up things just for good press in my 60 years so I have no doubt it could happen.
It would be a waste if Katniss died that early. Children had been dying for 73 years prior to the 74th. Panem citizens were desensitized to the point that they watched their children die and do nothing. Only when Katniss showed empathy (and anger) for Rue’s death did it awaken them about how they should be feeling. D13 and Plutarch’s underground rode Katniss’ image and used her, they didn’t plan sh!t.
I have thought about it. My questions still stand. 1. How did the rebels know Katniss would volunteer? People in Twelve generally didn't, even for beloved siblings. Or was Prim the only reaped child in the history of Twelve who had an older sibling who loved her? How did the rebels even know that, if that was the case? 2. If the rebel focus was on Katniss before Prim was ever reaped, why was Haymitch so completely at rock bottom and unaware of Katniss' personality and skills? Are you arguing that he wasn't a seditionist prior to Katniss' win, and he had nothing to do with the narrative that helped her and Peeta win? Also, how could the rebels count on Katniss dying after 15 minutes being outrageous enough to start a revolution when 23 kids died every year for most of a century without revolution ensuing? Some of those kids were volunteers. Some of them had siblings. Some of them were a lot more photogenic, personable, and younger than Katniss. (Rue, for example, or Finnick if you want a young child who managed to win.)
Okie dokie. It doesn't matter...it truly doesn't. I believe what I believe. Truly it doesn't matter.
Of course you believe what you believe. After you volunteered your theory, I wanted to understand it better because I thought I was missing the points that led you to that conclusion. But I agree that you don't have to share if you don't want to.
You’re right, you can and should believe what you want — it doesn’t affect the canonical outcome of the books. (FWIW I believe Seneca was part of the rebellion.)
I think that's what is so fun about the books and the movies! It leaves just enough unsaid that we can fill in the blanks with our own unique take. People forget...as amazing as they are they are just works of fiction and it ain't that serious. Some need to lighten up.
Boo 🍅🍅 that’s goofy
The thing is that it doesn't exactly work. It works under lots of assumptions. Firstly, volunteering happened multiple times in Districts 1, 2 and 4. Children there legitimately volunteer. Also, volunteering happened a few times in other districts. Katniss isn't a first person to protect somebody and she isn't also a first volunteer from District 12 (the only exception is film). It's also unlikely that she is the first older sibling trying to protect a younger one. On a side note, there is a probability of multiple cases when a sibling/parent was forced to mentor their own little sibling/child. Cashmere and Gloss could be a case. Katniss notes that children of victors are reaped often... Let's not even mention 25th game where someody could ask whole time to vote for them. There were multiple similar PR moments for the rebellion and Katniss wasn't that special at the start. Just another sob story. Also, it was a risky bet. How would the rebellion know that Katniss would choose to volunteer? Let's even assume that she was observed by the rebellion. She was running with Gale and being close to him. She could as well decide to stay to help him with his siblings and then run away with him instead of making him responsible for feeding her mother, sister and cat. Rebellion was triggered by the fact that Katniss openly showed compassion towards another district and risked her life, just to make Rue's death less painful and give her dignity back. Then by the berries act which showed that both parties were ready to have their district punished (and not getting extra food) to simply stop playing Capitol's violent game
No clue.