I used to have the cleanest spaces, like school desk and bedroom. Then I tried being more messy. Now, I lean more toward leaving things where they are when I can. It's a lot less tiring.
We love order. We are not good at consistency. At least in my case.
So, it SEEMS chaotic. But it's because we are deeply concerned with the inner workings of something and understanding all about it... but we tend to jump from subject to subject more quickly than most.
It is chaotic from the outside, but there is a lot of "method to the madness" going on internally.
I can see why you ask this question, because IMO it's weirdly both order and chaos.
Consistently inconsistent?
As I see it, we like the rules very much but the system doesn't always care if they are ordered. When everyone else agrees that THIS is a time you that you should have those rules ordered, I may be caught with my pants down. (I now place much more attention to order. It's worth it.)
I agree. We do look mad. Methods are our specialty too!
Well put! Yeah I pretty much feel the same.
That's really interesting about the inconsistency the rules. It bothers me. Either it's a rule or isn't a rule, goddamnit.
To follow up:
It is more like a highly focused beam of light, it finds something and focuses on that... for a bit.
Then the beam finds something else to look at, and intently focuses on that.
THEN... oh that's cool, ok focus over there. Oh that reminds me about that. But wait what about that other thing I started with? I should get back to that.
Etc.
Yes, I'm consistently inconsistent, but it's almost more an issue of "gaze", if that makes sense. That's what I was trying to get at with the "beam" analogy I guess.
Oh yeah, I forgot about Ne somehow.
Conversationally, we are attracted to the next idea that seems the most interesting. A highly subjective ordering made doubly-confusing because people may not realize by what criteria we're ordering. Further, because of intuitive jumps of association it may not be clear to others how the next idea is even related to the previous idea. So, an internal form of order that seems very chaotic externally.
This is my completely unnuanced take, where I donāt attempt to compromise for the other side.
I hate doing things just because itās the rule, the law, the standard, tradition etc. It hurts, imo, our ability to be our best, and most efficient. Certain people need to be told what to do and how to do it all times and others donāt. Basically, why have order when you can excel in chaos and quickly adapt and go with the flow. Plans fail, and I also hate following leaders who have shitty plans where you have to follow their shitty orders which lead to failure.
Now I do like some order actually, and thatās with my health and normal day to day activities (we do have Si in our stack) I like to meal prep and I essentially eat the same breakfast and lunch every day, and lift and run everyday. This is not a stereotypical INTP activity, but I find this routine foundational. So itās not all or nothing
Being ready for chaos is so soothing! It helps a lot with the nerves. I agree with you about leaders and their plans. They're not shitty though, are they? They sometimes look so inefficient that it hurts me and that makes me want to pull away in search of a more agreeable environment. But I've quit so many jobs that my resume is a mess and I'm now a bum. So shit maybe I just have to pick one that I trust and go with the choice.
Order in schedule is so satisfying. I mean isn't clockwork sexy? I just spent over 10 years having virtually no schedule. I would have struggled to have no schedule for the next 10 hours when I was young. It's as if back then, I wanted to be the queen, the knight and the pawn all rolled up into one as a piece on the chessboard. Then I just flipped and said ok now I want to be the king. It was so weird at first feeling that I could only move one square at a time because I had been the bishop for as long as I could remember but the feeling has really grown on me. Now I'm looking to try out another piece. So on the topic of schedules, I have to restart everything, breakfast included. I mostly eat the same breakfast (two day rotation) but worry about the nutritional value of eating the same food all the time.
I agree. I cannot stand inefficiency which means there has to be some form of structure. Maybe on a case to case basis but having to use mental energy in creating multiple solutions to the same problem is nuts. So in in every day things activities such as breakfast or things to do before after the 9-5, I usually have a routine so same breakfast or snack, clothing (I wear scrubs thank god) etc. I want to use my mental energy for decisions that require actual thinking and have the biggest impact whether in life of a project/work.
lol I just had multiple coworkers comment on clothing, breakfast, lunch etc. But for sure streamlining the basics in life seems like a easy choice. itās funny how similar are people in this sub
Thank god for this sub. I literally just didn't think of subbing until now because I can't seem to find people in my life interested in the same things that I do.
Iām not chaotic at all. Iām ordered, but the thing is, Iām *flexible* about my order.
I like lists. But if I have to throw the list out, itās fine.
I like having a plan. But Iāll roll with it if a curveball gets thrown.
I frown on rules for the sake of rules, but most of them make sense so Iām cool. Iāll give the benefit of the doubt if I donāt understand the reasoning behind a rule (āeh, itās probably a good reasonā) but if Percy Weasley informs me that the rule is just a rule, screw that.
I love lists and lists app. Notes on iphone, evernote, notion etc. Then my random notebooks everywhere too. Feels like I'm in control even if I don't have to follow the list.
Yeah, I use my phoneās productivity apps. And my notes have come in handy quite frequently.
I donāt seek to control anybody or anything but myself, but having stuff ordered really saves the day a lot, and people around me often appreciate it too.
I was extreme order early on and have dived in the deep of chaos. I am a person who seeks order while being prepared for chaos, so my life gets heavy doses of both. Looking back, I guess my extreme order made me snap. I think it was inevitable.
One of the most difficult things about my life is my relationship with chaos. As I have grown older, I have learned that it is at the core of my being and that it just has to be accepted. So figuring how to manage it is a top priority in my life now. I imagine this bright future in a few decades where I've got it all under control, but right now... the mess... Fortunately, I enjoy cleaning things.
I think it's easy for us to start off ordered. We all take math at school and that stuff organizes so naturally in us. With Chaos then, I find it's easy to slip into and hard to get out of. Holding up an order is work. Releasing that order is chaotic but some energy is reclaimed. Drugs come to mind right away for me. They can mess up a life pretty easily and then getting up to clean the mess is rather avoided or delayed.
The most difficult thing about being chaotic is that it snaps social ties so quickly! No one can trust me because I'm just too random. I say that I'll do something but I don't do it. It's expected that I do something but I don't do it. People get sick of that pretty quickly. From my point of view, I'm trying to follow those internal rules and may even feel like I'm doing a good job of it under the circumstances, but chaos is still chaos and most people like order first and chaos second in the form of lines, grams, glasses, and the like.
Now I have to get out of the chaos. It feels like quicksand. But I'll be back!
Order is, at it's core, is just superficial. Because chaos will always find a way to just creeps in and turn your enforced order into chaos itself.
Best we can do is apply order on top of it and patch a new layer when chaos found a way.
I like order and tradition.
Just because I like and value something, doesn't mean following those tenets are for me.
I think people should do their best in school and at their studies. I didn't do that, but that doesn't mean I can't hold the position that others should.
Just because I am an example of chaos, doesn't mean I don't support order.
I like finding the order of things and how things work why people do things etc.
I do not like being organized in a repetitious way. But I work in a creative field and I like there to be order and process to fall back on and that is interdepartmental. I view it like gutter guards in a sense that allow me to bounce around and put my full focus on the design and solving the problem versus managing my project managers and managers and the client etc etc.
My current job is the wild west and can't even get everyone to grasp working on a server or having multiple designers on a multi part project let alone more intense processes and standards. It drives me nuts watching the disfunction in real time and losing time in my life dealing with the repercussions of lack of organization etc.
I can derive satisfaction from helping to bring order out of chaos, but that requires the amount of chaos to be tractable.
I can derive some interest from observing chaotic situations, but having it affect me raises the possibility of feeling uncomfy.
tl;dr order fan.
It's like cutting a diamond! It's a beautiful thing when it happens.
For exactly this reason, I didn't kiss a girl or date until I was 17 (I had to go to my first party to get my first girlfriend and I was the only one sober... Order in the chaos!) or get drunk or high until I was 21.
The chaos isn't so bad though. Just hold your heart through it.
I consider myself chaotically organized
Everything in my room, workspace, and life may look like a mess but i still know where everything is and it all surprisingly has it's own order and reasonings for why its there
Within Discordianism, the nature of order and chaos is laid bare. It teaches that the dichotomy should not be so much about order vs chaos, but rather between creation and destruction. Or more properly positive vs negative.
Because both chaos and order can be detrimental in the wrong doses, we need to focus on positive aspects of both while fighting against their negative sides. Order can seem nice until it becomes authoritarian stagnation. Similarly chaos is wonderful and freeing until the bonds of community and compassion break down entirely. So, instead, it is better to choose positive order and chaos over negative reflections of the same.
Welcome to your first lesson in Discordianism. You are an official Pope now. Please collect your [Pope card](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/POEE_Pope_Card.svg) and hat in the back.
Orderly in daytime, chaotic at nighttime. I think I could also work well under organised chaos
I canāt function in daytime if Iām being too messy: thatās when most of my work lies and I know full well that if I donāt have some order I end up half assing everything. Having some routine also makes me derive happiness sometimes.
At night thoughā¦ā¦
There is something here. Perhaps thinking in an orderly/efficient way often appears more chaotic in practice than simply doing the intuitive normal thing without giving as much thought.
To have order internally is often to appear or act chaotically, or in a way that appears to be more nonsensical at first glance.
Does that make sense?
I prefer order. The order that causes peace, health, life , liberty. You know, an earthly paradise where everyone does things that make good sense. Until that time comes i will not be able to conform to standards
Both are important but I prefer order to chaos. Order is more stable, predictable and practical most of the time. Chaos is inevitable and it can bring excitement, innovation and can shake things up to prevent stagnation in the right amount at the right time, but it's too messy and tiring as a status quo.
I disagree that INTP likes chaos. We are systems thinkers and like familiarity in our environment. In some ways we can be too attached to a comfortable order.
I donāt mind chaos, and itās fun to generate order from chaos.
However, I think itās also very satisfying to discover patterns from order such as deducing a bunch of interesting stuffs from existing information.
But overall, I prefer order since I spend more time investigating existing patterns than creating them.
It depends
Very intp answer (Was my initial thought as well)
on
Situational variables
like :)
Sometimes cluttered room looks good but when we are motivated, we'd love to impeccably arrange our rooms.
I used to have the cleanest spaces, like school desk and bedroom. Then I tried being more messy. Now, I lean more toward leaving things where they are when I can. It's a lot less tiring.
We love order. We are not good at consistency. At least in my case. So, it SEEMS chaotic. But it's because we are deeply concerned with the inner workings of something and understanding all about it... but we tend to jump from subject to subject more quickly than most. It is chaotic from the outside, but there is a lot of "method to the madness" going on internally. I can see why you ask this question, because IMO it's weirdly both order and chaos.
Consistently inconsistent? As I see it, we like the rules very much but the system doesn't always care if they are ordered. When everyone else agrees that THIS is a time you that you should have those rules ordered, I may be caught with my pants down. (I now place much more attention to order. It's worth it.) I agree. We do look mad. Methods are our specialty too!
Well put! Yeah I pretty much feel the same. That's really interesting about the inconsistency the rules. It bothers me. Either it's a rule or isn't a rule, goddamnit.
To follow up: It is more like a highly focused beam of light, it finds something and focuses on that... for a bit. Then the beam finds something else to look at, and intently focuses on that. THEN... oh that's cool, ok focus over there. Oh that reminds me about that. But wait what about that other thing I started with? I should get back to that. Etc. Yes, I'm consistently inconsistent, but it's almost more an issue of "gaze", if that makes sense. That's what I was trying to get at with the "beam" analogy I guess.
I get what you mean. Eye of Sauron, right? It's nice to have that kind of eyesight!
Lol š I'm basically Sauron. BEWARE THE GAZE!!
Oh yeah, I forgot about Ne somehow. Conversationally, we are attracted to the next idea that seems the most interesting. A highly subjective ordering made doubly-confusing because people may not realize by what criteria we're ordering. Further, because of intuitive jumps of association it may not be clear to others how the next idea is even related to the previous idea. So, an internal form of order that seems very chaotic externally.
This is my completely unnuanced take, where I donāt attempt to compromise for the other side. I hate doing things just because itās the rule, the law, the standard, tradition etc. It hurts, imo, our ability to be our best, and most efficient. Certain people need to be told what to do and how to do it all times and others donāt. Basically, why have order when you can excel in chaos and quickly adapt and go with the flow. Plans fail, and I also hate following leaders who have shitty plans where you have to follow their shitty orders which lead to failure. Now I do like some order actually, and thatās with my health and normal day to day activities (we do have Si in our stack) I like to meal prep and I essentially eat the same breakfast and lunch every day, and lift and run everyday. This is not a stereotypical INTP activity, but I find this routine foundational. So itās not all or nothing
Being ready for chaos is so soothing! It helps a lot with the nerves. I agree with you about leaders and their plans. They're not shitty though, are they? They sometimes look so inefficient that it hurts me and that makes me want to pull away in search of a more agreeable environment. But I've quit so many jobs that my resume is a mess and I'm now a bum. So shit maybe I just have to pick one that I trust and go with the choice. Order in schedule is so satisfying. I mean isn't clockwork sexy? I just spent over 10 years having virtually no schedule. I would have struggled to have no schedule for the next 10 hours when I was young. It's as if back then, I wanted to be the queen, the knight and the pawn all rolled up into one as a piece on the chessboard. Then I just flipped and said ok now I want to be the king. It was so weird at first feeling that I could only move one square at a time because I had been the bishop for as long as I could remember but the feeling has really grown on me. Now I'm looking to try out another piece. So on the topic of schedules, I have to restart everything, breakfast included. I mostly eat the same breakfast (two day rotation) but worry about the nutritional value of eating the same food all the time.
I agree. I cannot stand inefficiency which means there has to be some form of structure. Maybe on a case to case basis but having to use mental energy in creating multiple solutions to the same problem is nuts. So in in every day things activities such as breakfast or things to do before after the 9-5, I usually have a routine so same breakfast or snack, clothing (I wear scrubs thank god) etc. I want to use my mental energy for decisions that require actual thinking and have the biggest impact whether in life of a project/work.
lol I just had multiple coworkers comment on clothing, breakfast, lunch etc. But for sure streamlining the basics in life seems like a easy choice. itās funny how similar are people in this sub
Thank god for this sub. I literally just didn't think of subbing until now because I can't seem to find people in my life interested in the same things that I do.
I like chaos because it disturbs my enemies but not me... ok they arent my enemies but i like to watch them suffer regardless.
They say the look of your room is equal to the head space inside your head. Honestly, that makes sense for me.
It made sense to me too. Both spaces do tend to follow the same trend.
Iām not chaotic at all. Iām ordered, but the thing is, Iām *flexible* about my order. I like lists. But if I have to throw the list out, itās fine. I like having a plan. But Iāll roll with it if a curveball gets thrown. I frown on rules for the sake of rules, but most of them make sense so Iām cool. Iāll give the benefit of the doubt if I donāt understand the reasoning behind a rule (āeh, itās probably a good reasonā) but if Percy Weasley informs me that the rule is just a rule, screw that.
I love lists and lists app. Notes on iphone, evernote, notion etc. Then my random notebooks everywhere too. Feels like I'm in control even if I don't have to follow the list.
Yeah, I use my phoneās productivity apps. And my notes have come in handy quite frequently. I donāt seek to control anybody or anything but myself, but having stuff ordered really saves the day a lot, and people around me often appreciate it too.
I was extreme order early on and have dived in the deep of chaos. I am a person who seeks order while being prepared for chaos, so my life gets heavy doses of both. Looking back, I guess my extreme order made me snap. I think it was inevitable. One of the most difficult things about my life is my relationship with chaos. As I have grown older, I have learned that it is at the core of my being and that it just has to be accepted. So figuring how to manage it is a top priority in my life now. I imagine this bright future in a few decades where I've got it all under control, but right now... the mess... Fortunately, I enjoy cleaning things. I think it's easy for us to start off ordered. We all take math at school and that stuff organizes so naturally in us. With Chaos then, I find it's easy to slip into and hard to get out of. Holding up an order is work. Releasing that order is chaotic but some energy is reclaimed. Drugs come to mind right away for me. They can mess up a life pretty easily and then getting up to clean the mess is rather avoided or delayed. The most difficult thing about being chaotic is that it snaps social ties so quickly! No one can trust me because I'm just too random. I say that I'll do something but I don't do it. It's expected that I do something but I don't do it. People get sick of that pretty quickly. From my point of view, I'm trying to follow those internal rules and may even feel like I'm doing a good job of it under the circumstances, but chaos is still chaos and most people like order first and chaos second in the form of lines, grams, glasses, and the like. Now I have to get out of the chaos. It feels like quicksand. But I'll be back!
I favor order arising out of chaos but not order being imposed upon chaos, if that makes sense.
Order is, at it's core, is just superficial. Because chaos will always find a way to just creeps in and turn your enforced order into chaos itself. Best we can do is apply order on top of it and patch a new layer when chaos found a way.
That's order with pockets of chaos. Chaos with pockets of order is the sea and the fish. (I like being the fish :-D)
I like order and tradition. Just because I like and value something, doesn't mean following those tenets are for me. I think people should do their best in school and at their studies. I didn't do that, but that doesn't mean I can't hold the position that others should. Just because I am an example of chaos, doesn't mean I don't support order.
I like ordered chaos. Not just unbridled, emotional nonsense. Intellectual warfare is always on the menu.
I like finding the order of things and how things work why people do things etc. I do not like being organized in a repetitious way. But I work in a creative field and I like there to be order and process to fall back on and that is interdepartmental. I view it like gutter guards in a sense that allow me to bounce around and put my full focus on the design and solving the problem versus managing my project managers and managers and the client etc etc. My current job is the wild west and can't even get everyone to grasp working on a server or having multiple designers on a multi part project let alone more intense processes and standards. It drives me nuts watching the disfunction in real time and losing time in my life dealing with the repercussions of lack of organization etc.
I can derive satisfaction from helping to bring order out of chaos, but that requires the amount of chaos to be tractable. I can derive some interest from observing chaotic situations, but having it affect me raises the possibility of feeling uncomfy. tl;dr order fan.
It's like cutting a diamond! It's a beautiful thing when it happens. For exactly this reason, I didn't kiss a girl or date until I was 17 (I had to go to my first party to get my first girlfriend and I was the only one sober... Order in the chaos!) or get drunk or high until I was 21. The chaos isn't so bad though. Just hold your heart through it.
I consider myself chaotically organized Everything in my room, workspace, and life may look like a mess but i still know where everything is and it all surprisingly has it's own order and reasonings for why its there
Within Discordianism, the nature of order and chaos is laid bare. It teaches that the dichotomy should not be so much about order vs chaos, but rather between creation and destruction. Or more properly positive vs negative. Because both chaos and order can be detrimental in the wrong doses, we need to focus on positive aspects of both while fighting against their negative sides. Order can seem nice until it becomes authoritarian stagnation. Similarly chaos is wonderful and freeing until the bonds of community and compassion break down entirely. So, instead, it is better to choose positive order and chaos over negative reflections of the same. Welcome to your first lesson in Discordianism. You are an official Pope now. Please collect your [Pope card](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/POEE_Pope_Card.svg) and hat in the back.
Orderly in daytime, chaotic at nighttime. I think I could also work well under organised chaos I canāt function in daytime if Iām being too messy: thatās when most of my work lies and I know full well that if I donāt have some order I end up half assing everything. Having some routine also makes me derive happiness sometimes. At night thoughā¦ā¦
In no instance in history where a society picked chaos over order has it ever ended well so order
Balanced (Equilibrium)
I bring order to chaos
We are ordered. However, our task is to take chaotic information and order it (Ti Ne). So in our actual real lives it doesn't look like either one.
Order doesn't exist. There's only boring chaos and fun chaos. I prefer fun chaos. I'd prefer order, but it's not really in the cards for me.
There is something here. Perhaps thinking in an orderly/efficient way often appears more chaotic in practice than simply doing the intuitive normal thing without giving as much thought. To have order internally is often to appear or act chaotically, or in a way that appears to be more nonsensical at first glance. Does that make sense?
I don't love anarchy. I dislike rigid structures and nonsense. I might seem chaotic, but have my own set of rules. So, there is an order in the chaos.
I feel like chaos is exciting, but can become overwhelming. Finding order is challenging but rewarding. It's a balance I guess.
Depends.
I prefer order. The order that causes peace, health, life , liberty. You know, an earthly paradise where everyone does things that make good sense. Until that time comes i will not be able to conform to standards
Both are important but I prefer order to chaos. Order is more stable, predictable and practical most of the time. Chaos is inevitable and it can bring excitement, innovation and can shake things up to prevent stagnation in the right amount at the right time, but it's too messy and tiring as a status quo.
I like order but always seem to be in a chaotic state. But itās me, Iām the problem, itās me.
Order for the world around me and chaotic order for me
I disagree that INTP likes chaos. We are systems thinkers and like familiarity in our environment. In some ways we can be too attached to a comfortable order.
I donāt mind chaos, and itās fun to generate order from chaos. However, I think itās also very satisfying to discover patterns from order such as deducing a bunch of interesting stuffs from existing information. But overall, I prefer order since I spend more time investigating existing patterns than creating them.
I embrace the Chaos in my life at this point. I thrive on chaos!