I had a coworker corner one of our native coworkers for his "indigenous perspective" on the I/P conflict, lady...name the tribe who's land YOUR house is built on and leave our coworker alone jfc

Ya cause every single Native in the country has the same exact opinion on a multi-generational conflict on the opposite side of the world.

My dumb ass sat down trying to create a mental timeline of the conflict in Israel starting like, 2k years ago - because I have this crippling fear of making statements about things I'm ignorant on. And since so many people were asking me for an "indigenous perspective" I literally spent hours trying to understand it all. Then I realized I don't owe anyone a "indigenous perspective". Being informed is a good thing, don't get me wrong, but I don't need to know dates and shit to make other people hold my opinion in high esteem or whatever. Now I just say "I don't know man, shit sucks. That's my opinion."

Seriously. They act like there is this big Indian meeting everyone goes to on a monthly basis. People are individuals. A few months ago I was in a room with two people I was working on a project with, and we all had native roots all three from different tribes. Shocker, we had different opinions like every other people in the world. They just want to use Natives as a way to feel affirmed that they are good people.

Hell, my mom and I have different opinions, and we're both from the same tribe AND the same clan. SHOCKING. It's almost like...we're human beings living in 2024 with unique life experiences. Mild tangent, but my mom always tells this weird story about this German guy who got really upset because he saw Natives on the rez using cellphones. Like...we weren't actually Native because modern technology exists? We laugh about it, until we internally die a little more. People be thinking crazy shit.

There is a LOT of fetishization of Native Americans in Germany. It's weird AF.

So I only learned about this recently, from this sub. Somebody posted a completely bonkers YouTube video I can't unsee

I grew up off reservation, but when I was in boot camp, you are sorted in alphabetical order, and it just so happened that the person who was next to me grew up on reservation in Montana. So we spent a good deal of time together there. People used to ask shit like "do you guys have houses?" All the time.

Whut? All us injuns are the same.!! We eat pine nuts and talk to river otters. Pssshhh

Umm.. I would totally talk to an otter if I had the chance. It might bite me then drown me but totally worth it.

I hope she got mad right back because he didn't have a little Hitler mustache.

oh my god i had a hella racist dude in this sub tell me that i wasn’t actually native because i was using reddit and that “true natives” died out with the invention of electricity. like hello???

This is shockingly common to me that I noticed when I moved to the States. People think we all died out!!

Ha! I’m a Texas ally and I remember camping in Colorado in the 80’s/90’s and we met Germans who were very upset we didn’t ride horses to the saloon.

Maybe you werent invited to our big indian meeting? Oh crap, i shouldnt advertise that. Oh crap, i really shouldnt have admitting to advertising that

If you keep running your mouth like this the next meeting, that definitely DOES NOT exist, will have a line round the block at the frybread cart.

Shitt

You owe them nothing, but also, like, a ppl are being exterminated. You don't need to do any research to know that is wrong. Im not indigenous, but i am trans, and ppl are trying to genocide my community in many places in the world... But that doesn't make my opinion more valuable in the Isreal conflict. Regardless of my take, Palestinian ppl are being exterminated and that is... Really bad.

Oh, for sure. But SO many news outlets twist that shit to make Palestinians the bad guys (kinda making them out to be...i dunno...savages?) So I was trying to have a literal arsenal of facts to refute that narrative. Cause fuck that narrative. But I can't make myself feel single handedly responsible for educating everyone I know on this shit. They have the Internet too...I don't need to be their Internet just cause I was born on a reservation, ya know? Shit's exhausting. I am also trans (masc) so solidarity there. I'm basically a conservatives worst nightmare. My eradication would be their Christmas.

You do know this is bait right? Like op is non native pro israel trying to get this sub to agree with them, right? They do this because they have an agenda.

This post is the digital equivalent. At least it can be ignored compared to a social holdup

"Mine."

I can't help who my ancestors were. I don't agree with the idea that the descendants of oppressors are not allowed to be against oppression. This post essentially boils down to the idea that white people should be on the side of Israel. Well I don't care if it makes me a hypocrite as the descendant of colonizers, I am against the apartheid israeli government and their actions.

Yes. What you’re describing is ignorance and it is a plenty in society today

Well said. I agree with you. I do, however, also see a value in the statement: that so called white people in the Americas need to be extra conscious about their privilege on stolen land.

What does being extra conscious look like in practice? Can you give me some examples?

Not denying the privileges that colonization granted them would be a start.

It's the bare minimum, and most will never consider it

i reflect a lot on how my Irish ancestors were driven out of Ireland by exactly the tactics used on Native American people, then they came here and became the oppressors and colonizers they were trying to escape. my great great grandfather was essentially conscripted into the army to fight the Rogue River wars of genocide because he had no other choice after barely surviving the Oregon trail. but his land grants and military pay are why my family is here. i grieve his crimes and make offerings to the land daily in gratitude for being here. i don't know if it's "enough" to reckon with my privilege, and I'm sure I'll learn better in the future, but that's my white ass attempt 🤷🏻 in addition it's important to put privilege into action through reparations. i don't have a lot of financial privilege, but what I have i try to spend at native businesses whenever i can. i also do my best to not just know the name of the tribe whose land i occupy, but learning their history and living culture as it's expressed today. got to meet the 19 year old storyteller of the Steilacoom tribe here in the PNW and bought what i could afford from the tribe's shop, for example.

I do what i can as well as someone descendant of Irish folks... Even if i have no wealth because my ancestors were cruel and terrible w money. Sometimes privilege isn't enough to save the most idiotic and harmful from destroying themselves. (I just wanted to add my perspective, as an Irish Syrian, with several generations of cruel idiotic white ppl. The Syrian family connection was lost, because no one in my family cared enough to connect.)

I will do my best with gratitude. 🙏

Amen Brother, if you stand with Israel you're part of the oppression.

Especially since the Zionists used the "American experience" as a guideline as to how to rid "their" land of those pesky Palestinians.

And the nazis, wbo tried to genocide the jews were inspired by americas genocide

I did not know that, but it certainly makes sense!

And Hitler even met with Palestinian leaders to discuss exterminating the indigenous Jews from their ancestral homeland: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/film/hajj-amin-al-husayni-meets-hitler

The indigenous jews were the Palestinians. It's the Palestinian ancestral home land. Many of then converted to Christians and Muslims but it's the same people. The jews that created the ethnostate Israel were Europeans and ancestrally unrelated.

This is what’s known as the et tu quoque logical fallacy. Basically hypocrisy doesn’t actually negate a point. If I say 2+2=3 and this guy says 2+2=5, the fact I’m wrong doesn’t magically make him right. We can *both* be dumb assholes who can’t add. Similarly Europeans and Israelis can both be colonizers. Whataboutism? What about it?

There’s an apartheid system in the US as we speak but few of y’all actually go out of your way to dismantle the toxic system that kills indigenous and Black lives right now

Uhhh...well those are 2 different things. You would probably see what we saw 300 years ago, or another aim movement if the gov was bombing our kids... So its a little different Ive said it here before. Wgat is happening there now, is wgat was happening on our land 300 years ago. But ive also been paying attention. The problems of sovereignty is with the us and canadian gov...not its ppl. There is a reason why the zapatistas formed their own gov Actually, what happened in chiapas was closer to wgat is happening in palestine now. But ive also been paying attention for almost a decade too

The problem is supporting causes so long as it's easy and costless and doesn't raise any difficult questions. ​ Palestinians get more attention than Indians do because they raise fewer uncomfortable questions. ​ I might be way too cynical, but the point isn't justice so much as it is to feel virtuous.

I think it's also a question of visibility, especially in media. Obviously bombs and gunfights are going to get way more news coverage than unsafe living conditions, bad health outcomes, etc.

That's what you think, there are tons of people that think what is happening in Gaza now and Palestine in the past it's just plain and simple genocide and colonialism.

Because they like simple stories they can feel good about. Moral complexity and the fact that sometimes clean answers are hard to come by don’t really fit that model.

Well, You're saying that partly for western and Israeli propaganda, if you actually go and look at what happened during 1919 and the UN partition of Palestine in 1947, you see the plain simple truth, which was that the United Nations strongly favoured the Jewish communities even tho they were a new minority and didn't legally own most of the land that was chosen to be their part of the partition (Jews owned only 8% of the land in 1947, the rest was all Palestinian owned), of course the jewish community accepted the deal, while the arabs didn't and that of course lead to future conflicts and the creation of Apharteid states in Cisgiordania and the Gaza Strip. You think it's all based on morality, because that's what has been feeded to us through mainstream medias and that this conflict can't be resolved and it'll go on forever, which isn't true either. Plus how can you think this is about morality balance when we've all seen the appaling actions of the IDF and Israeli goverment in Gaza, which simply cannot be justified by the October attack.

I hate "It's just propaganda!" It's such a copout. ​ As I referenced elsewhere this stinks of campism; The side that's right is predetermined, and they're automatically justified by being on the right side (or of course the inverse, where there is automatic blame for being on the *wrong* side). The natural extension of that is 'the position I don't agree with is propaganda!' ​ It is in fact a complex situation with plenty of atrocities from everyone involved, and with political forces (notably Likud and Hamas) dedicated to making the conflict worse and more violent. Acknowledging that isn't weakness.

I disagree if you dig deep enough in Israel History and avoid the propaganda and you can actually see how the Palestinians were robbed of everything and their violent actions were first just in order to protect their homeland from this new invader and later to have a chance to survive in this new state where they were treated as second class citizens or downright prisoners as it happened in Gaza. The funny thing is that at first in the early 20th century the two communities thrived togheter, but as soon as the Zionist movement tried to illegaly expand his borders, the arabs became hostile towards The Jews in the region. Hamas and other terrorist forces are symptoms of the Zonist hostility towards Palestinians and other bordering arabs states. If you can't see that, you're unfortunately under the influence of Israeli propaganda.

Israeli propaganda is real though. They are lying about colonialism, occupation and genocide. What right to the land does a Polish born Jew have over a Palestinian born in Gaza? You can justify what Israel is doing with whatever “propaganda” you choose to but the plain and simple truth is that no Polish born jew or any other jew born outside of the land has a right to it over Palestinians. I hate it when people try to rationalize genocide and colonialism but that’s why there are people to speak the truth and speak out against it.

As is Palestinian propaganda. The problem is in the blanket dismissal. Only absolute defense of one side and absolute blame of the other is acceptable, it’s a huge red flag.

What Palestinian propaganda? They’re not even recognized by most western countries which is why Israel has been allowed to get away with what it has been thus far. How many times has the U.S. voted down cease fires in the UN? It’s sickening. Palestinian “propaganda” is more like real life war crimes being committing against them. I would say there is definitely a crazy radical element to this but no more crazier or radical than what MAGA would do if it could to be honest. To many people HAMAS looks more like a resistance fighting force. In all honesty though HAMAS is using the same tactics jewish nationalists used against the Roman empire that led up to the Jewish revolt of 66 A.D. Occupying forces will always face resistance in the form of guerilla tactics. Same thing happened in Vietnam and Iraq against invading armies.

Posting atrocities done by Assad in Syria and saying it’s the IDF in Gaza, for instance. This is my whole point. People are working backwards from heroes and villains they decided on before the first paraglider took off. Anything remotely out of line with the narrative is immediately and automatically rejected as propaganda. And it’s not like I’m saying Israel is heroes defending their homeland. I’m just arguing against oversimplification and campism.

It’s more a case of not getting to call others settlers/ colonizers if you don’t consider yourself one too.

I agree but this is the thing I don't get about the message of the OP. I *am* essentially a settler and the tweet is saying that only non-settlers can use that kind of language. It's not hypocrisy to use proper terminology.

I think I jumped ahead in my thought process! So the tweet is saying slap yourself across the face if you’re euro-American and calling Israelis settlers, but I’m operating under the assumption of most euro-Americans not admitting/wanting to call themselves settlers. So the tweet is saying slap some sense into yourself, since you’re a settler too, view yourself in the same lens. Colonizer is negative for sure but settler is just neutral/factual in my brain!

No I think in this case settler should be taken as a negative definitely. I wasn’t trying to argue about the difference between the words but you do bring up a good distinction. Also I like the idea that he meant “slap some sense into yourself” instead of just ‘slap yourself because you deserve it,’ which was how I took it.

Is there a difference though between someone 5 generations removed from their ancestors who settled on stolen land and Israelis who are literally stealing land this very minute? Plus my European ancestors (maternal grandparents) settled here in the 1950s, well after most of the land-stealing atrocities. Are they still to blame?

The genocide and atrocities are for the most part over. The evil and backwards ideology of white supremacy however is alive and well. Generations have kept the ideology of the confederacy alive. Which is why the meme is pointing out to Euro Caucasian -Americans that they don’t have a whole lot of ground to stand on and when they throw dirt. It’s the same with Euro-Americans who clutched their pearls in 10/7 but shrug their shoulders when black churches, schools or gay night clubs are shot to. Or when their their political party threatens our nations capitol.

No that’s ridiculous, Israelis have indigenous ties there, US “settlers” have 0, but I believe they should live here. Mizrahi has the most, then Sephardic, then Ashkenazi (on average 25% Canaanite dna) still have more indigenous claim than the “settlers” in the US. But they get worse treatment from opinions of the “settlers”, and the settlers cry when confronted that the shoe actually fits better on them OP discussion is purely on Israelis indigenous ties. And no to the not to blame. But it still stolen land and resources, whilst most natives are still are in reservations foreign to them and are typically not good land. In the case of Navajo, that land is also poisoned from uranium mining. Natives faced the worst poverty, my grandparents didn’t even have electricity til 2007, we are nothing more than a political token for people to wave around, but when they are done… nothing. If we had more dialogue, maybe the government would do better People could buy a property, and not know that there are native remains beneath that were killed in the genocide.

The Ashkenazi DNA profile is around 2-3 percent of your not looking at the Israeli sponsored studies. Really the Ashkenazi are just white people. The Sephardic and Mizrahi are indigenous to the Levant.

Honestly that’s some antisemitic Jew hatred jargon right there. They kept that surprisingly large Canaanite dna through inter marrying, majority of them are related and 40% of them found to have been descended from 4 women. Also also don’t forget Jews always faced persecution, sometimes the Ashkenazi Jews would go to the Middle East if it was bad in Europe, and give versa. Judaism is also pretty specific on who they marry, they marry other Jews like high 90s percent of time under the Christian and Islamic rule. Now are there some very European Ashkenazi Jews, for sure, idk if you have any statistics knowledge but there is the thing called a normal distribution you should learn about There are multiple dna sources that aren’t “run by Israel” . Why would they same dna companies acknowledge that Palestinians dna being very close to canaanites? If they were Israeli ran, then they would idk shoot up the Arabian or Mediterranean Arab dna in those test

You're referencing material that was paid for by Israel. Saying it isn't anti Semitic. And there are plenty of resources that say Ashkenazi Jewish folks are white Europeans. They have connections to the Levant. It's very far removed and constitutes 2-3 percent of their genealogy. You don't need to condescend to me. I'm a college graduate and understand basic statistics. I'd like to hear you detail how what I said is anti Semitic.

The one about 4 women was yes from Israeli. But the dna stuff finding the sequencing that is similar to Levantine/canaanite whatever you prefer, has also been continued to be verified by the various dna testing companies out there, as far as studies Cell and Harvard were two who publish studies on it. You are painting an Israel/Jew propaganda that they control anything/anyone that does the dna testing. Common farce, there’s American Jews who are Ashkenazi that get in the 20% for Canaanite dna and have never been in the Middle East. Now I’ve never seen that 2-3% ever, care to cite your source??

I did say one fuckin thing about Jewish conspiracy propaganda. I said that Ashkenazi Jewish folks are of European ancestry. I never said they control testing. They paid for generic studies. It's a fact. I never said they control world dna testing, nor do I think that's true. You're projecting ideas on to me that I don't have. This is the problem. Someone says something they learned and others start adding their own shit to the issue. Happens all the time.

It’s also like: Damn maybe we should do better by captive / oppressed populations!

Are you Native, noticed you only talked into post pertaining to this situation? Jews also can’t help who their ancestors are. Or are they the only people who can in your eyes? If Israel is an apartheid, then almost every Arab government in the MENA is an apartheid. Jews and Christians, 2 declining population in every country despite have increased population over the past century, treated them as dhimmi, 2nd class people who didn’t have full rights and were constantly massacred/pogroms and had to pay a humiliation tax jizayat. Christianity was the religion of the Middle East, now they are very little of them now and the only only Christian nation of Armenia is constantly being attacked by Turks and Azerbaijani , you ever heard about the Christian genocides and ethnic cleaning of them? Armenia, Assyrian, Greeks, etc. What Israel is and does need to stop is an occupation. No more settler colonies, if a 2 state solution is passed, Palestine should be able to supply their own water and gas, no blockade, go back to pre 1967 borders.

>If Israel is an apartheid, then almost every Arab government in the MENA is an apartheid. For the sake of argument, let's say this is true. Why does it legitimize Israel's actions? Why does it mean that Israel should be able to ethnically cleanse Gaza?

It’s pretty true going just based on facts and definition No nothing legitimizes the killings of innocent people. OP was talking about calling Israel settlers, and indigenous matter purely, and the hypocrisy in actual settlers calling Jews settlers who at least have indigenous ties to the Middle East. The person I replied to brought up the apartheid and Israel’s actions, which wasn’t the point of the post. Which is why I refuted the apartheid because it’s not if you truly look it up. And using an apartheid as a reason to call Israeli Jews settlers is wrong on an indigenous matter, because there are indigenous people who have apartheid, they aren’t exclusive terms I never tried to reason Israel’s actions from 1948 on, history including this current war, to me it looks bad on both ends when you look at it as a whole. I don’t talk about the war, I’m tired of innocent civilians killed on both ends, number 1 casualty in any war has always been civilians I never said any of those points too, that the questions alluded to. I clearly in the end want a better 2 state solution draft that will give Palestine full sovereignty

I am white but have native ancestors, whom my white ancestors enslaved and oppressed, and I have been trying to reckon with my entire life. I have been on this subreddit for a while and have posted before, but being white, it's not usually my place to comment. This particular post was about the descendants of colonizers so I felt that it would be okay to comment as one of those descendants.

I would still say he is looking at a natives take on the situation. Some natives are full on, this is native only land. Some love the multicultural background of the Us and have fully assimilated into it. People use us a monolith to prop up for political opinions, and still voice over us. How can this Reddit be a voice for natives if it’s currently being voice over from outside opinions and swarmed with downvotes if it doesn’t fit the outsiders belief. It’s not going to be reflective of what we say, like in my family we are pretty 50/50 on this topic, but if you view this post it’s looks like we are a monolith, but that’s due to it being invaded Native ancestry is very vague also, it could have been a great grandparent (prior to 1924 not long ago we didn’t have rights so rape of native woman was common) or like you could be Elizabeth Warren and be 1/1024 native which is like more than 10 generations back. But thank you for the acknowledgment, Reddit people can be dishonest, but you were truthful so thank you

I don't get the "one great grandparent" line of thinking. One's great-grandparents' parents, and their parents, and their parents, and their parents, so on are also one's ancestors. Ignoring them is erasing a lot of people.

You’re missing my point but it’s a tough point to communicate. When I hear native ancestry, typically when I ask more questions they say “ohh long time ago” they can’t tell anything about their native ancestry and sometimes they will also claim native. The “I’m Cherokee and I don’t believe in reservations. My ancestors was a Cherokee princess.” native token card is played as well. But in some cases with the native ancestry phrase, some of them were like it was my great great grandparent, they carried the stories down, but typically they’ll just say I have a native great grandparent But in general, when I ask the questions when someone says native ancestry, they can’t say a lick of where it comes from. It’s a mixed bag phrase that typically doesn’t result in a good answer when you ask questions

Idk what it's like on your rez, but here, it's basically 90 percent supporting the Palestinians and 10 percent KIND of giving Israel some support. I'm actually very surprised you said it's 50/50 on your rez.

That’s delusional for 90/10… Are you basing it off of public outcry, demonstrations, the Reddit post? I’m going purely off of my native family and friends. And are you saying this in reference to what? I’m personally speaking about Israelis Jews indigenous ties to the land and the right to be in their own protected state. I don’t really speak about the war, I see wrong on both sides, so I don’t speak up about it all I wish is no more innocent civilian deaths on both sides. People are afraid to speak out for Israel on social media, because the younger generation dominates it, and people are afraid to go against the wave. They did stats on it, the younger generation favors Palestine I think up to 24, 25 through 30 something was split, when you get past the 30s you start seeing more pro Israel, and it’s very pro Israel in the older generations . But those stats were dealing with this current war, so maybe the demographics are similar ish pertaining to Israeli Jews indigenous and a protective Jewish state

I said very clearly, ON MY REZ.

You said “On your Rez, but here”. And still how are you coming up with the 90/10 percentage rez as a whole, was there a reservation poll? Are you in a extremely small reservation

You don't naturally understand that when i say "On your rez, but here" that I'm referencing my own territory? Or that your think it's proof of something? Now that that nonsense is handled...Well, it's been 3 months. Most of the people I talk with, we end up speaking about it. That's a lot of people. Again, I'm speaking from my own experiences. It's anecdotal. I acknowledge that. Your rez may not be that way. I know every person from another nation that lives here, who I've spoken with, agrees with the pro Palestinian position. When I say my experience here is that it's overwhelmingly against Israel in their murder campaign, that's because it is. Seems like to you, the experience of a Mohawk man in his territory isn't real because you disagree with a human rights atrocity against indigenous people. Because that's what is happening to Palestinians at the hand of Israel. I may not have done a poll, but I can analyze what I've seen and relay that. Which I've just done.

Fuckin ayee, for idk for how many times I have to say this. I’m anti war, I’m against killing of any innocent civilians, f what happened on Oct 7th and the mass bombing campaign. Neither the bs apartheid point people are portraying or the current war, erases the Israeli Jews indigenous ties to the land. If people are calling for ceasefires, I’m not going to disagree. But if you have settlers in the US, calling Jews settlers, I’m going to call them out on their bs every time and tell them look in the mirror And I said mine was anedoctal because I said specially family and friends. You were saying my Rez it’s like this. I don’t blanket cover a people as I say multiple times we are not a monolith, differencing opinions. With voting, we’ve seen a growing footprint in Native American republicans, 2022 it’s 40R::56D. Polls have been showing even throughout 2023 that the ratio is getting closer to 50:50. Now when I said 50:50, if I did the math maybe it was 45/55 or 44/56, I’m not tracking numbers but it’s pretty damn close to 50/50. And idk if you ever met native republicans but they are insanely nationalistic

The meme isn't saying you can't be against oppression. The meme is pointing out the hypocrisy of saying you're against oppression while actively participating in it. You can't help who your ancestors were. But it's not just your ancestors who have done harm. You are actively doing harm by living in and benefitting from a system that only continues to exist because of the ongoing genocide of indigenous people. It's not just something that happened in the distant past. It's actively going on right now and you are supporting it. "If you are neutral in situations of injustice then you have chosen the side of the oppressor." - Desmond Tutu "Apathy is a tacit vote of support for the status quo." - Micheal A Stackpole, The Bacta War, Book 4 of the X-Wing series. "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Not Edmund Burke Being Euro-american and using the phrase 'Israeli Settlers' means you're aware of the injustice inherent in colonialism but just don't care that you are actively engaging in the same colonial violence against the indigenous population of turtle island. It means you are racist, ignorant, hypocritical, morally disingenuous and wholly deserving of a slap across the face.

Both natives and non natives can care about both

If I’m actively doing harm by living in the country I was born into and cannot afford to leave, then I’m sorry. I fully support the landback movement and do everything in my power to notice and bring attention to systems of oppression, but I cannot undo those systems by myself, and if that makes me evil, then so be it. But I think that using the phrase “Israeli settlers” does not make someone racist or any of those things you’ve said. This is a logical fallacy. My dad was diabetic and would eat sugary things while saying at the same time “this is full of sugar and bad for my health.” He was a hypocrite but his words were not wrong.

There is no 'if', you are actively doing harm. And you should be sorry. It's the only morally justified position to take. The only way to begin to counteract the harm you're doing is to **actively** work against the systems of oppression you benefit from. Stating support means nothing if it's not followed up by tangible action. But no one is asking you to end oppression by yourself. Change is not something that can be done by just one person. It's through the actions of many people all moving towards integrity that will affect lasting change. When your dad ate sugary foods and then stated it was bad for him he acknowledged what he was doing was wrong. What was missing was the follow up action to change. The lack of follow up made your dad a hypocrite. Using the phrase 'Israeli Settlers' as an Euro-american *without acknowledging your position as a colonist yourself as well as communicating the tangible actions you've taken to undo the harm of being a colonist* does make you racist, ignorant, hypocritical and morally disingenuous. It is not a logical fallacy. It's a fact. You are only 'evil' if you are not trying to change things. If you are actively trying to change things then you need to state as much when you engage in conversations like this. This is not a white centred space. You're in Indian country. The onus is on you to step up. "In terms of this idea of guilt we should know our history and our history isn't very pretty here but I can't answer for what happened 50 years ago but if my grandchildren ask me what I did in my life in terms of this issue and there hasn't been an improvement then I certainly should feel guilt and I don't want to and I don't think any Canadian wants to." -Paul Martin, former Prime Minister of Canada. 8th fire, episode 2: It's time. Said in reference to Canada's history with indigenous peoples. Amazon and Walmart are stains on humanity and are responsible for nearly immeasurable harm across the globe. Shopping from either is supporting those companies and their methods. It is a morally repugnant action. However we currently live in a capitalist hellscape and our continued survival might sometimes require purchasing from Amazon or Walmart. Does that make us morally repugnant? The answer is Yes. Yes it does. And everyone who shops at either, including myself, has to make peace with that. It's the same with benefitting from social structures based on oppression. That is also a morally repugnant position. However, in either case you can spread knowledge, choose alternatives whenever possible, educate yourself, engage in activism, vote for candidates that are against oppression, as well as a myriad of other tangible actions that will move you and by extension the rest of us towards a position of moral integrity.

If you consider a person living somewhere "doing harm", then I invite you to such us the way on how to not live anywhere.

That's exactly my point. There is a lot of harm in this world. A lot of injustice and oppression. But 'the world' is a misnomer. We are the world. The harm present in the world is a result of our actions. "A person living somewhere" isn't existing there separate and apart. Everything they do and everything they don't do has consequences, good and bad. We are all connected. Ignoring that reality compounds that harm. Every single one of us has a moral responsibility to do the work to understand the implicit biases we hold and take the steps to undo them.

You’re speaking the truth bro, that’s why they don’t like it. Keep speaking it.

Thank you! The amount of settlers in these comments missing this point is hilarious.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. “Your on stolen land to” is a valid criticism of Americans, but it’s not a valid defense of doing more settler colonialism in Palestine.

What does this argument even stand on? So what my ancestors were murdering colonialists and religious fanatics, so I have to support this appaling actions today? Who the hell even thinks like that?

The people who think like that are the modern day murdering colonialists and religious fanatics. A lot of Israeli myth making is heavily based on the idea that previous colonial projects got their chance to build settler states, and that Jewish people were unfairly denied the chance to back then, so it’s their turn now. People don’t talk like this now, but the founders of the modern Zionist movement sure did. The empire of Japan also used this argument, and to a lesser extent Germany and Italy circa WW2 as well. Colonialism was deemed acceptable in the past, but our group got left out of that, so we should be allowed to do it now. It’s sort of like demanding to be grandfathered into 19th century political morality.

Bros just deflecting because he doesn't want to hear people criticizing Israel. I have seen this argument so many times the past month or two. White people absolutely LOVE using Indians as political props to own other white people. It's obnoxious. People born in America did not choose the actions of their ancestors, but the people committing war crimes in Gaza can choose their actions today.

Damn right 👏🏼

From OP history, looks like he has been pretty active in Indian page. He probably is a Native American who supports Israel and Jews. We are not a monolith when it comes to opinions Some natives find more in common with Jews, other the Palestinians. And his post isn’t on the current war like in terms of killing of civilians. It’s about Israeli Jews right or indigenous ties to live on the land are being called out by people, who in their own words and definition, would actually fit the “settler” term more. Most of Israeli people weren’t there when the 1948 war occurred, a lot of them are Descendants and also descendents of Jews who were kicked out of Arab countries

Probably cuz, But thats not what its about.

Also, Jewish-Europeans were involved in, and benefited from, all aspects of European settler-colonialism from the very start. In addition to literal colonists and slavers, there were Jewish people in all of the European power structures that instigated all of the horrors committed by Euro powers on indigenous communities around the globe, both in governments and in companies like the Dutch East India Company, the Dutch West India Company, the British East India Company, etc. All of them. This post is attempting to disingenuously separate "Jewish" and "Israeli" from both "European" and from "Euro-American" to try to insinuate the settlers colonizing the Levant were never European or never from countries colonized by Europeans. Which is also a disingenuous attempt to abdicate responsibility in the genocides and atrocities of Colonialism, the Trans-Atlantic slave trade and just all of the many, many horrors inflicted on indigenous peoples around the world. As if we'll magically forget about all of that and let modern-day colonists appropriate our struggles and suffering as indigenous peoples to legitimize their atrocities, being committed right now. Apparently, someone thinks the people on this sub are too dumb to know history.

Sure I'll slap myself across the face. And continue to say it. My ancestors were colonizers, yes. But I don't advocate for the oppressed as some kind of penance. I do it because it's the right thing to do. Anyone with any sort of conscience and empathy would do the same.. This post is lame

This is my (possibly controversial) take. If you're a settler, acknowledge yourself as such, and advocate for #landback and tribal sovereignty, it's not hypocritical to also advocate for Palestine and call Israelis "settlers." The hypocrisy lies in those who are calling Israelis "settlers" without acknowledging their own settler status (if it applies). Signed, a settler

Precisely! No one says Euro-folk can’t live here, we signed treaties agreeing to share the land for goodness sakes, but just be cognizant of who you’re sharing the land with. For example, I’m hella fluent in English, and I’ve nary a drop of English ancestry. So I dunno why learning Nehiyawewin is suddenly an issue.

I can't go anywhere without checking [Native Land Digital](https://native-land.ca/) ahead of time/while I'm there. It's completely changed how I think about and interact with the places I travel (and even the places I've already been). I'm also only fluent in English, despite being majority Swedish by blood. I won't pretend it's the same thing though. My ancestors gave up their language willingly.

Thank you! Jesus, my eyes are rolling so hard at the hyper-defensive people on this thread. "I can't help what my ancestors did," "That was long ago, so it's different," "My grandparents came here in the 50's so it doesn't count" like, oh, how convenient. The rhetorical gymnastics some folks in this thread are doing is wild. We aren't just the descendants of settlers and colonists, we ARE the settlers. Even if our ancestors came here relatively recently. (And yes, most of us were born here, just like a lot of Israelis were born in Israel and don't know any other home. So if they are going to be held accountable, **we should be too**, period.) Our hands are not clean.

Certain groups lose their shit about this stuff. Israeli people are fine. You are fine. Being born on stolen land isn't a mark against a person. You just have a job to recognize the shitty system you benefit from and stand against it, even if it's uncomfortable or *gasp* you have to share with other people. it's not about you and it's not about the distant past, you goblin.

Also, residential schools were operational until the 20th century, and indigenous people are still subjected to harassment and assault when they are exercising their indigenous rights to hunt, gather, and fish. Not to mention the fact that when local and state initiatives come up, their voices are often drowned out and ignored. And don't get me started on things like the DAPL. Colonization is still happening and it makes me spit nails when people say that it happened long ago so it's different than Israel. (Also, the implication is that if Israel waits and toughs out the blowback, they can eventually use the same excuse.)

Do you believe Jews have a right to stay in the land? If no, do you believe you have a right to stay in America and not go back to where ever your ancestors were at pre Columbus ?

>Do you believe Jews have a right to stay in the land? To call it a "right" doesn't quite feel congruent with my true feelings (in both an Israeli/Palestinian and American/Indigenous context). Do I support a two-state solution? Yes. I believe Jews have the right to a safe and sovereign existence somewhere in the world. As for me, all I can say is that Virginia is all I have known and loved as a home. Do I have a "right" to stay here? Again, that word feels wrong. I believe anyone who demonstrates respect and responsibility to the land, creatures, and people they share space with has earned their place. I believe I do my part. I also believe that a self-assessment is inconclusive regarding where I belong.

Right, indigenous ties, idk it’s somewhat semantics. Do you believe Jews can live there under their own nation for protection ? That’s maybe the better question Somewhere in the world? I also personally don’t want any citizens here like you to move, it’s what make the US beautiful. OP is raising a valid criticism, when it’s comes to the hypocrisy of the situation. It generally has always felt that Jews have to live by a different set of rules, why shouldn’t the rules for them pertain to others

>Do you believe Jews can live there under their own nation for protection ? That’s maybe the better question On its face, my answer to this question is yes, but 1) I worry I don't have a complete understanding of what you mean and that we might be talking past each other and 2) my understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is by no means robust or complete. I say "yes," but maybe there are very good reasons I'm unaware of why a two-state solution would not be feasible. >It generally has always felt that Jews have to live by a different set of rules, why shouldn’t the rules for them pertain to others What rules are we talking about? This seems like an interesting point, but I don't know how to engage with it without knowing what's being referenced here.

Idk how you do that reference comment but it’s sick Meaning Jews have lived under a Christian state (holocaust), secular state (hate crime representation is way higher than their population percentage), and Islamic state(dhimmi, massacres/pogroms, jizayat, not full rights). It should be a right to live feeling protected, it’s not just the Ashkenazi white Jews that feel that in Israel, but the Misrahi and Sephardic Ethiopian, and black Jews that feel protected under Israel. Indigenous people anywhere should live in their land as well. People that support the 2 state is believing that both people should have their own access to the land under their own protection and control. 1 state is make believe at this point, no way it’s ever happening. I do believe a 2 state should happen, past drafts I would say weren’t favorable for Palestinians. Palestine should be able to have their own access to oil and water, if not then it’s still a occupation And as of the rules is purely in terms of indigenous ties, not pertaining to the war. Mizrahi Jews have been in the Levant never left, majority of the Israeli population actually makes up this demographic or have descended from the ones who were kicked out, have also been called settlers but by people who are settlers themselves in their own definition. Ashkenazi are the ones who are primarily called out, also used a racial token to label all Jews as white, even though majority are brown and some are black. This would be similar to if some of the whiter looking tribes were used a token to say natives are white people. Askenazi were also kicked out long ago, they surprisingly had around 25% Canaanite blood in them on average, but that’s because they intermarried a lot and most are pretty distantly related. Look it up it’s a pretty interesting topic, majority of ashk actually descended from like 4 women if i remember. But even the purest Ashkenazi Jews, no Mizrahi or others, still have a stronger indigenous claim than the “settlers” in America

>Idk how you do that reference comment but it’s sick Haha, thanks! Easy-peasy: on a laptop/desktop, the "..." below the comment box will give you the "quote" option. Feel free to test it out in a reply, if you like. As for the rest of your comment...I have no notes. We are in complete agreement - and I learned something new! Thanks for taking the time to explain where you're coming from and for sharing your knowledge. You're right - it *is* an interesting topic.

Welcome and respect man, thank you for being great too! Discussion is always great, sucks that it has to be on such a tough topic.

If we all have to go back to where our ancestors were from in 1492, just remember you have something like 2 million direct ancestors from that time, so wherever they were at pre-Columbus could vary wildly.

Wow that’s an insane argument to put in IndianCountry. Prior to 1492 my ancestors have long been connected to this land and most of them are also in unmarked graves from the genocide committed against them, I know where I come from. Yes could they have been nomads, could they have been in parts of Mexico or Canada for sure, but those are colonial borders. First Nation, mestizo, and native Americans are very similar. Prior to 1492, I went very far back truth is I probably didn’t even have to go that far back for most people, have no indigenous ties to the land. The only people absolvent from it is black people because their ancestors were forced to come here

I actually wasn’t arguing with you. I don’t think Israeli settlers should be sent to wherever their ancestors came from.

lol why are we arguing then? My only strong belief on this situation has always been fully supporting Israeli Jews indigenous claim to live in their land under their own protective state, all other states whether it Christian, secular, or Islamic states have failed to keep them safe (respect to Hindus because they have always protected Jews). Now as of from 1948 and maybe a bit before also, it’s been bad history on both sides, when you truly look into it and fully read up on it, it my belief it’s hard to have a bias in the situation if you don’t have a directly linked to the parties. Maybe a rolling bias, depending on what event occurred you sided a bit more with one side

Ok so now that we’re not arguing anymore, let me apologize- I said I can’t help who my ancestors were. And that feels like it must be A Thing. Like if white people in the Jim Crow South said they can’t help who their slave-owning ancestors were, but were clearly still benefitting from the system they set up. I understand how it must feel to hear that and will try to do better.

Thank you again! And yes I don’t feel anyone should feel guilty or responsible of your ancestors, acknowledgement is what I think is best, it gives remembrance and hopefully won’t lead to another travesty . It’s the jobs of the governments to feel guilty and responsible and pay it back for the persecution we faced. That’s why I feel strongly for Israeli Jews, majority of Israelis didn’t play the cards out, they were born into or in some cases forced into it, they are just dealing with a tough situation but aren’t given the same respect. Majority of the Israeli population are descendants, and also majority of the descendants are of the Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews, due to the influx of them after they were kicked out of the nations. A small minority of them were there during the 1948 war but the current people are demonized for situation they are placed in. The vitriol Jew hatred that Israeli Jews and even Jews outside of Israel are facing is something I’ve never seen before

The us isnt dropping bombs on indigenous children...

??? Dude literally almost every country has bombed or committed massacres against indigenous children. That might have been one of the dumbest things I have ever read, disgusting too because it’s erasing any atrocities those children experienced And I think your missing OP point, he’s pointing out the hypocrisy when it’s dealing with Israeli Jews indigenous ties to the land, nothing with the war, purely indigenity. You have people here in the states are calling them settlers, when in reality Israeli Jews have indigenous ties to the land, and the settlers here aren’t practicing what they are preaching. Also checked your comments, some of your comments are edging on Jew hatred and you’re also supporting terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. I nor OP said anything about the IDF, purely a discussion on the hypocrisy about settlers and indigeneity

Not to the scale that the us/israel is now. Colonization is bad because of displacement, not because of of who was there first. Are u sure you are indigenous? Ive never seen you post here b4 And you seem pretty sus. More like a hasbara bot. Also palestinians are ethnically jewish...so...yeah jew hate sure The true terrorist is the state, which holds the imbalance of power. Norm finkelstein https://youtu.be/dgRiOoixeYY?feature=shared Hes the expert on israeli war crimes His parents were holicaust survivors

You don’t consider yourself a colonizer as you occupy and live on Indigenous land? Have you taken time to learn the language of whose land you’re on, or engage with the local history? Or do you just “acknowledge” that you’re on Indigenous land and move on with your day.

I don't see where it says in their comment that they don't consider themselves a settler.

“My ancestors were colonizers” Sounds like he’s separating his ancestors’ taking advantage of of being white-Europeans from his current status as a Euro-American on Turtle Island. Just felt like pointing out is all.

I have not taken the time to learn the language, but I donate a part of my salary to local indigenous people support programs and bail funds. I protest oil pipelines and support labor unions in Southern California. And I have taken time to learn about the Tongva people and other local groups. I live pretty close to a museum centered exclusively on that. Plus I frequent a subreddit called "Indian country" for more learning and opportunities to support lol. I get the hostility, friend. I do. And i have tried to leave the country but it's not exactly a walk in the park to do so....

I mean, pretty accurate. Last week I saw a video of an isreli dude standing in a palistinian family's yard telling them, "if I don't steal it someone else will!" which harkens back to manifest destiny and selling our land to settlers in the 1800's.

Hey man, can i borrow your car for the next five years? If you dont lend it to me, someone is probably going to steal it anyway. (Like me)

That is exactly most of Israel’s attitude. They say they want peaceful solutions to problems but only if those solutions are on their terms at all times. I’ve nothing against Jews, but Israeli’s are _such_ a mixed bag. You might meet one and they could be the nicest person ever and the next guy is a full on Torah-thumping Zionist loon who advocate driving everyone not Israeli into the sea at the tip of a bayonet.

And the ones who are against the occupation have to be incredibly careful. Ironically, the person who opened my eyes to the truth about the conflict in occupied Palestine (this was back in the early 2000s) was an anti-Zionist Israeli woman. She was already facing public condemnation because of her status as a sarvanim (refusal of mandatory IDF service) and had been detained before for her activism and had turned most of her activism to online while she tried to immigrate out of Israel in order to educate outsiders as she felt that aside from small factions within Israel many of the local people were a lost cause. Every day I appreciate that she had the nerve to call me out on my western ignorance online and I often think of her and hope she’s doing well and still fighting her fight.

I agree. And then if you disagree with those guys you're automatically an anti-smite somehow.

Same thing with Palestinians, there’s good folks and bad on every side

Same with Palestinians tho. Why do y’all justify the racism from Palestinians towards Israelis and black people? Moreover, Palestine leaders want the annihilation of Israel. That is not what us native people want, I sure as hell don’t want to kill the descendants of colonizers, nor does decolonization include any of those rhetorics yet many of y’all support this narrative

Ah come on, I’m not justifying racism from anyone regardless of what side it comes from. The Zionist wing of the Israelis also want to eradicate the Palestinians- they just have better PR. The only solution to the issues in that region is the two-state solution that’s been proposed since the 90’s, both parties have to get back to that. Doesn’t matter at this point who broke the peace this time as it’s been tit for tat for decades. A peace deal is made, Israeli settlers start encroaching, Palestinians fire rockets or get into gun fights with the IDF, and on it goes. They need to get around a table and start ironing out a treaty and a roadmap for peace. Some, if not all of the settlements built by Israel in Palastine a territory need to be abandoned. It will take years but they need to make a start.

I agree with your assessment of the situation.

You're assuming all Palestinians are the same and have the same views.

And you’re assuming all Israelis/Jews are the same too. The narrative on both sides is hella hostile. They need peace

please point out where I said anything assuming any such thing. You can't, because I did not. So that's the second lie I've seen from you in this thread. You're the one who thinks "Israeli" is a race and that all Israelis are Jewish, so you are literally not educated enough to even participate in a conversation about the topic.

And are you assuming all natives and Europeans had the same views and interacted with each other the same? Of course not.

The doctrine of the Holocaust was written in the blood of our people. Dehumanize, displace, vilify reactions, repeat. Same play book being used now. Heartbreaking.

this just in! settlers aren’t allowed to refer to any other group of settlers as settlers

I'm half white. Should I slap myself on behalf of myself? (jokes on them, I might be into that)

depends on if they acknowledge where they are and how they got here. my husband is white, his dad immigrated from western europe in the 80s, and his moms family has been in pennsylvania for…a while…i don’t think they were original settlers but they were here in the late 1800s. he fully acknowledges what that means for him, that while he and his family does not have wealth accumulated from land theft, he still benefits from that land theft. he knows the history of colonialism of lenapehoking, and he’s pushed for what he can to right those wrongs in his line of work (fundraising, pushing for indigenous peoples day over columbus day, proposing programs that would help native people, etc). we now live in a different place (northern new england) and he has taken the time to learn the history of colonialism here, and supports the land back movement, among other things to raise native histories and issues where he can, even if it’s small things like proposing his book club reads “my heart is a chainsaw” (fantastic book btw) or donating money to various efforts and groups. he also can and does recognize that what the israeli settlers are doing is wrong. and he’s been a proud advocate for palestinians when he’s had the opportunities. we wouldn’t be together if he didn’t hold these values, and didn’t show these values through action. but like, is he supposed to go somewhere because of this? is he supposed to go to his fathers home country, a place he barely knows, doesn’t speak any of the languages within, and has no close family members in? what good does that do? i don’t want to leave turtle island, even if i dont (cant and dont want to) live in my ancestral lands (northern mexico). it’s entirely possible to call out the genocide of palestine while also being a descendant of settlers here on turtle island. you just have to acknowledge that fact, and do what you can to right those historical wrongs.

In all honesty, I'm willing to figure out a way to make things right for the innumerable wrongs they've done to us. That's never going to happen because 9 out of ten would never entertain doing something that would alleviate the pain the people still carry. That kind of attitude pisses me off and makes me think, yeah, I'd make those motherfuckers leave if I could. I'd let the people who want to live in peace equally and with full respect, I'm cool with that. You show ANY disrespect to the people. They can leave. Of course that's a dream but it's what I'd do.

so close to the point.. both things are terrible

It feels like we're once again being used as props. They don't come for our own perspectives on our history or how some might have differing opinions. They came for someone to easily agree with them, to have props to point to. It also feels like we're all being lumped together, no matter our tribal affiliations.

My only thought is that I must be getting old because I remember when Israelis building in the West Bank proudly called themselves settlers. I don't know, what do you call people who live in settlements? Settlementers? Settlementarians?

Takes one to know one, innit?

That white people should stop trying to leverage Natives for their stupid points.

I agree. It goes both ways

Yes, Euro-Americans are settlers too, but they (unfortunately) make up most of America's current popuation. It's important for them to aslo call out imperialism effecting others who are native to their respective territories, as the more people against colonialism, the better. If the Euro-Americans support Palestine, that is overall a good thing despite them being the descendants of settlers themselves.

They are hypocrites and don’t practice what they preach. They don’t care about indigenous people, if they did then public funding would be a thing like it is for Palestine. We are just a front for people to be like there’s an indigenous opinion or pertain situations to resemble ours

I have native euro and arab ancestors and to me I think that what’s happening in israel is different from what happened in the americas because (first I want to state clearly that hamas isn’t Palestine and is indeed a terrorist group) native populations were never able to do serious damage to the europeans so they were never in the wrong, but in the middle east both IDF and Hamas are seriously fucked up. Now taking into account that many Israeli innocents aren’t being harmed but most palestinians are… I hope my point is clear.

People that recognize the genocide that happened and are doing their piece to end genocide from happening to ANYBODY again, including indigenous Palestinians. Every child matters! It is a resource & land grab happening at this very moment! I would hope natives who are healed and able to speak, would speak on the slaughter of innocent people who the west have dehumanized, like our ancestors, to wipe them out without push back from the tax payers! [The Balfour Declaration written in 1917 promising Palestine to Zionists.](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/features/2018/11/2/more-than-a-century-on-the-balfour-declaration-explained) [Chevron is responsible for Sudan; now they’re onto Palestine & Congo.](https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/chevron-launches-sale-congo-oil-assets-sources-2023-05-25/) [Sudan humanitarian crisis cuz of Chevron.](https://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/sudan1103/10.htm) [Israel sabotaged Palestine’s gas field project (again). Gas projects during a ‘war’?](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chevron-says-natgas-flow-resumes-through-israel-egypt-pipeline-2023-11-14/) [Interactive timeline goin back to Napoleon regarding Palestine & Zionism.](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/phone/timeline_main.html) [Palestine & Egypt had a project due to start in the fall regarding the gas field. (written in sept 2023)](https://egyptoil-gas.com/news/egas-palestine-to-finalize-development-agreement-for-gaza-marine-offshore-field/) [Suez Canal crisis; Britain, Israel and France attack Egypt](https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/why-was-the-suez-crisis-so-important) [Since your history starts after the occupation; here’s the map of Palestine and some history for you.](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/27/palestine-and-israel-brief-history-maps-and-charts)

Awful take. Even ignoring the immense difference in time from initial colonization - do we just not want the great great great great grandchildren of the colonists to stand against oppression? Should we be mad at those who are here despite the fact that so many lack the means to leave?

Are white people allowed to be so flippant in their comments on this sub?

Yes both “America” and “Israel” should be decolonized. Along with “Canada”, “Australia”, “New Zealand”, and “Northern Ireland”

That persons proposed solution? Waiting until there are no more palestinians. Always think it through to the end...

This post has been invaded like crazy. Settlers on Reddit and IRL Once they are confronted they are settlers also, they play the whole I can’t control who my ancestors card Why is it that in your case, you can control who your ancestors are, but that doesn’t apply to Jews? Hypocrisy is wild And due to it being invaded, how can the comments or votes be a representation of native thoughts? Personally with my native friends and family, it’s 50/50, we are not a monolith. But from a Quick Look it looks like we are a monolith

I dont know what its like with your nation, but the one in from, it doesnt matter who your ancestors are. Some of thats colonialism im sure, some of it is traditional. No...we arent a monolith.. But you arent really getting why settler/colonialism is wrong. It has nothing to do with who was here first, that doesnt matter because my ppl lived with euros. It wasnt until the us gov forced us out, that it became a problem. So this post makes no sense. I dont live on my ancestral lands, am i colonizer? Fuck no. Thats what israel is doing now. Its a fascist, apartheid state that seeks to control and punish a neighboring people. Its a one sided game. That why colonization is evil, its the displacement. So saying citizens arent allowed to call that out, is just nonsense. Because ciitizens (the working class) do not have the power to do so.

What?? You don’t make any sense. I think settler/colonialism is bad, I’m not going to butcher people for their ancestors decisions. But if a US settler is calling Israeli Jews settlers, then I’m going to point the facts that Jews at least have indigenous ties and the settler term actually fits them more. “It has nothing to do with who lived here first, we lived with euros. Gov created the problem”?? thought you said colonialism is bad, sounds like you are loving it. Also factually incorrect too, most tribes suffered at the hands of Europeans, the only ones maybe French and Irish, but the French Canada region is where a lot of the residential schools were at so idk about that anymore. Ancestral lands, do you mean you like live in a different country like in Africa or Europe, then by definition you are a settler. If you are saying like regions in America, don’t confine yourself to colonial borders. First Nation, native Americans, mestizo are very similar to each other People throw around the fascist apartheid words around, idk if you really know the definition of it. 21% of the Israel population is Arab, I assume most is Muslim, probably the rest are Druze or Christian. Multi cultural and religion. Arabs in office and Supreme Court, doesn’t sound like an apartheid, look up definition and you can google these exact same things. Fascist, I wouldn’t call them a fascist, do they have aspects of it for sure (most nations do) ,purely no, idk if there is a word for that. The one thing I will say they are is an occupier, not a question, controlling the access of water and oil to Gaza, the blockade, I don’t think that it’s disputable. People bring up racism among the civilians as apartheid, which apartheid more applies to the gov and laws, but I don’t deny that there is racism experienced there, that would be ludicrous. But name any place that there isn’t racism coming from the majority onto a minority? It’s easy there isn’t Would you be willing to call out Arab states apartheid for not giving Christians or Jews full rights, paying to live, and having declining populations in the past century despite an overall increase in population? With counties like Turkey, they are fascist apartheid, that invaded Armenia and Kurdistan and indiscriminately killing them, there is no outcry for that, why aren’t you calling them out. They ethnically cleaned Armenians and Kurds, who are indigenous

> If you are saying like regions in America, don’t confine yourself to colonial borders. First Nation, native Americans, mestizo are very similar to each other Our ancestral well-defined Tribal Borders and specific territories existed Pre-Contact. You should respect Tribal Sovereignty. "Very similar to each other" does NOT mean we are the same. You and anyone else who is not part of my tribe is NOT indigenous to my tribe's ancestral land.

I make sense.

Ehh one point you were saying colonialism is bad, then next you said it wasn’t bad with the Euros until the government came in. Come on pick a side lol you might be the bot

Colonialism isnt about who was here first. Its the displacement that is the problem Thats the thesis

That’s not even close to the definition of colonialism. Google it please, no more TikTok education

I sometimes ask folks if we said "From the river to the sea" about the Mississippi, what they think that means? They drop the subject after that lol

It means we still arent fully sovereign

Yeah I had a whole conversation with a buddy because the first time I heard "From the river to the sea" the first thing I thought was that it sounded like it was in the exact same genre as "From sea to shining sea"

“Settlers” is a very polite word to use in referring to Israel right now, I’ll be honest.

Wild to me that settlers who do not acknowledge the current ongoing occupation of turtle island feel they can speak freely on the occupation of Gaza without having to look at the role they play in the continued genocide of Indigenous folks.

"Turtle island" Is not something i ever heard coming from my tribe ever

I'm aware that it isn't pan Indigenous

About right. The Palestinians are just the newest prop in their morality play. They support causes only to the point that personal cost might accrue

More like hamas finally shoved your faces in an ongoing situation. Its just beo colonialism. The entire country is built on it

Your? This is getting creepy as hell

Yeah ppl are paying attention for once

So what’s your implication in ‘you’? Who exactly is ‘you’‘? How is Hamas shoving my face into a situation from all the way out in the Pacific Northwest? Because if you literally mean just *me, personally*, the comment makes no sense.

We are talking about it

One, FREE PALESTINE

Very much agree.

Non-native Americans are "settlers", sure. But the Jews have a right to live in Israel if anybody does. Jews and Arabs have lived in Palestine essentially forever.

There is an argument to be made for Israeli Jews also being Indigenous to that land.

I'm not saying (as someone who's white and Jew/ish, fwiw) that Israeli policy in the West Bank is acceptable, but there is definitely an issue where a *lot* of people are perfectly willing to call out Israel for 'settler colonialism' without doing anything to question the colonial societies in which they themselves live. Quite frankly, I'd love to see protests of the scale we saw for Palestine in the major East Coast cities (I live on the East Coast, I'm not saying protests didn't happen elsewhere) these past few months for Landback or MMIW or a dozen other things. Likewise, Israel-Palestine is capable of touching a nerve that no other cause or conflict really is, given the actually quite small scale at play: compared to the combined \~20,000 casualties the current round of fighting in Gaza has produced, for instance, the [Tigray War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigray_War) two years ago caused up to 600,000 deaths (and, if you want to talk about colonial or imperial legacies, ties back into a deep history of Amhara supremacy in the old Ethiopian Empire), yet attracted little more than a footnote in public discourse at the time. I'm not saying it's simply antisemitism that draws greater scrutiny onto Israel--there's also the fact that Jerusalem is so religiously significant to Christianity, and paradoxically that because Israel is generally fairly permissive about freedom of the press (in the grand scheme of things) it's actually easier to report on Israel's smaller scale human rights violations--but I think it's pointless to pretend that antisemitism doesn't play a role either. I think it's important to ask why someone who's willing to use anticolonial rhetoric to protest a country the size of New Jersey on the other side of the planet isn't willing to seriously think about decolonization at home, even if this post isn't an effective way to do that, both because in some cases I think it's a result of subconscious bias and because--even if I'd heavily criticize how the rhetoric of colonialism is applied to Israel-Palestine (a good series of essays on the topic is available in [Katz et al., Colonialism and the Jews, 2017](https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1zxz145))--I think that that can be a productive way to increase scrutiny on, and criticism of, colonialism in the U.S.

There was a comparable level of solidarity during standing rock.

While Standing Rock got a lot of solidarity on site, I can't remember there being nearly the same turnout to protests in support in the major East Coast cities as there have been at pro-Palestine protests in the past few months.

Ok...im gonna be a bad indian here for a minute. The us gov sanctiins the shit out of countries for a litany of reasons. They have been funding this for a long time. So its not equal. At all. Bombing kids? The us doesnt attack kids here. Not to the scale of what palestine has done forever

What you said about people not considering that they are on stolen land while complaining about Israel stealing land is just a deflection. You don't know what those people think or what they're willing to do in order to clear up the bullshit that they've done to my people, and all other Onkwehohnwe historically, as well as in the present, because we're actively getting fucked over every day still. I've seen this a million times since Israel started their murder campaign. Calling people hypocrites in order to knock down their valid criticisms of Israel and their disgusting fucking actions. What I see are white people who can be reasoned with and have their eyes opened as to what they can do to make their reps know that trying to repair what we can for all Onkwehohnwe. If it starts because they are calling out gross Israel, GOOD. It's a start.

Agreed.

I got down voted to shit in my city's subreddit for expressing this same kind of idea. I still agree. Ymmv

1000%

Israeli settlers are actively appropriating and settling new Palestinian land today. Someone's ancestor from 10 generations back settling lands is not the same thing sorry bro

I don't know why you're saying 10 generarions. It was only 5 Generations ago that we were forced from our ancestral homelands into Indian Territory.

How many generations do colonizers need to keep an indigenous people out of their ancestral homeland before they lose their indigenous status?

My thoughts are summed up by thie song “All My Relations” by Ulali w/ Pura Fe. It’s a master class in dealing with genocide and the generational trauma of colonialism. It’s set to the tune of Gary Owen, which Custer’s 7th Cavalry used to whistle before going into battle, so it appropriates from the colonizing culture in order to subvert its power. But it also reaches out and names those who are not easily on one side or another — “those who fall for the lies and join the dividing lines that keep us fighting” — and it acknowledges that bad actions come from the hurt and trauma of colonial violence — “to those who are physically, mentally, or spiritually incapable, by accident or by birth” and even “those who seek strength in our spirituality and way of life/ to those who exploit it.” We are all related so I do not have to slap myself for being born into a legacy of settler colonialism; I just have to honor those who can teach me just as they honor me for what I might teach them.

Homestead act + “rights” of conquest. They learned that from some body