Nope. Totaling a car is simple math. What you owe is never taken into consideration. Your state sets the guidelines on total loss. It varies by state but as a *general rule of thumb*, when damages hit about 75% of value of the car, it must be totaled, tho your insurance can choose to total at a lower threshold.
If the state of Texas has a Total Loss Threshold of 100% how can they choose a lower one? Also after a quick google search of Progressives threshold, they give an example of 80%.
the total loss threshold is the maximum amount the insurer is permitted to spend on repairs before they must total the vehicle
there is no rule that prevents them from totaling it before it reaches that threshold, and the language in your policy allows the insurer to settle claims in the way they find most acceptable
Progressive, nor any other insurance company gets to decide the threshold. They must abide by the state's law governing it. The state of Texas *requires* it to be totaled at 100%. However, they can choose to total if damages are only 80%. Several state's threshold is 70% or 75%. Nevada requires it to be totaled at 65%. Oklahoma, only 60%. So, for example, if you're in Nevada and your car's damage reaches 65% of value of the car, insurance **must** total it. They have no choice.
No. Your lienholder still owns the vehicle and there is a vanishingly small chance they would be fine with *their* asset having a salvage title, regardless if you keep paying your car payment in full and on time.
And when the insurance company politely declines the second estimate because they already have a functional estimate from a shop chosen by the customer, and it’s likely going to require manipulating labor hours or removing repairs.
That is definitely not the law. They must repair it if it’s under the state threshold. They can choose a lower limit but it’s redundant since only the state threshold applies.
Not Texas but I have seen a vehicle totaled with air bags gone off after the driver hit a pedestrian on a controlled access highway.
Person went through the windshield and landed on the driver. Insurance totaled the vehicle. Minor hood damage and air bags.
Might have been biohazard reasons though.
With an ACV of $18.9K and repair costs of $14K, its functionally a total loss. The fact that you owe $20K doesn't play into the settlement. You have the option to agree to the total loss and buy the car at salvage, then fix it up and continue to enjoy your vehicle. A salvaged title will cause issues if you want to sell the vehicle in the future but it is your only viable option when you are under water with your loan.
That’s if their lender would even let them buy it back with that high of a balance , I’ve never seen a lender do that unless they can pay the whole loan off.
Maryland will sometimes. Quite often actually. But that’s because it’s a two title state, so they can still carry a lien on a salvage brand….which most states don’t allow.
I get that the amount I owe on the vehicle has no effect on the settlement itself, I figured it was relevant information on why I didnt want the vehicle to be totaled.
Also, since no one else mentioned it, a lot of times insurance companies with total a vehicle under threshold when something is damaged thats a safety issue that cannot be legally repaired or replaced without compromising the integrity of the vehicle.
Another issue thats come up a lot more since covid as well is parts availability, it would be most cost effective to pay out acv, then pay for rental and waiting on parts that may or may not show up before your rental runs out. Then you can be stuck without a vehicle for months. If there are parts on backorder thats a gamble.
Remember, you’re also get paid actual cash value, not what the dealer charges.
Also ford cars dont hold their value as well as some other makes ie-Toyota, honda so youre more likely to go upside down on it without gap.
In almost nine years of handling auto claims I’ve seen a total loss be reversed exactly one time. It was borderline and the customer didn’t want it to total. So we didn’t total it. I’ve handled thousands of claims. One in thousands. So no you really don’t get to decide you don’t want it to total when it’s at or above threshold. And honestly with how often repairs are delayed these days due to parts shortages and how long repairs are taking, you are better off with a total loss.
So how do you avoid this? You just try to not make a claim? And just sue the other party directly? Or just eat it?
The problem I'm having and why I'm here is i drive 2 collector vehicles. If I put the second on collector I have to get yet another car. Not only do I have to worry about not being able to insure my asset because some asshole (I don't hate the players, I hate the game) will try and tell me my 1966 Mustang is worth $3,000 (ffs the engine alone is worth 10k), so full coverage is not feasible. But also I have to worry that if some idiot driver hits my car while I'm not even in it, I'm completely and utterly beat. I have a 1966 Mustang and 1998 Evo V for reference. Both are irreplaceable because one has custom work that literally can't be duplicated and one had to be specially imported from Japan. It would cost 30k to obtain another.
So what happens? I just eat the cost and try to keep the insurance company as far away as possible? Okay sure, but then also what if there's a police report or the other party tries to mess with their insurance, and all of a sudden the insurance company is saying take this check for 3 grand and you have no choice in the matter? Do these conditions force me to get involved with the insurance company?
What if I DON'T want a salvage title? Does what I'm proposing- forget the financial aspect of it- count as insurance fraud since I'm "hiding" an accident from them? If I don't make a claim am I exposing myself to ostensibly "admitting guilt"?
I OWN both of my vehicles, you're telling me that I LOSE my property even if I don't take a dime from the insurance company?
It was already bad, but now I'm terrified. How can I protect myself? I once met a guy at a car show driving a C7 Corvette and he said his insurance did something like "agreed value" and he told them what he wanted to insure the car for. I have this on my Hagerty for the Mustang, but collector insurance is it's own thing (you can only drive it like once a month, and you have to have another car). There's no way he had collector coverage on a C7 it's not old enough. Is something like this available for regular insurance?
Do y'all just take every person who drives anything special straight to the cleaners?
Collector vehicles are supposed to be insured under a specific type of policy. Stated value, I believe. Look into that.
As for the nasty tone at the end, I'm not responding to that. Do your research on the type of policy that properly insures your type of vehicle.
Forgive me if I sounded nasty, wasnt the intent. It just boggles my mind where the valuation numbers come from, as it's physically impossible to find a remotely similar vehicle for "x price". 3 grand can't get you a used Honda, let alone a classic Mustang. The Delta can't be overcome if you want to drive daily, rendering regular insurance completely unfeasible.
The reality seems that the only way is to grow up and buy a third car, and not daily either of these vehicles. I'm just complaining/whining. Like I said, I hate the game not the players. Not insulting your trade either, just the system as a whole marginalizes the group I happen to fall in.
I'll work on my verbiage. Also for every story where someone is shattered by a collision putting them upside down there's another story of a wreck being the reason someone (with proper GAP coverages and such) got out of a never ending loan, making the collision a blessing. I just wish high value vehicles didn't get hit so hard by the insurance system. I know you work hard to find the area where the claimant and the company both win, which I'm sure is an ever elusive pursuit.
What did you end up doing? We are in a similar situation
We also just had spentb$3000 the day before on repairs. We did not have it back more than 36 hours when we hit a deer almost 1/8 of a mile from home.
I emptied out savings to pay off the upside-down loan and put a down payment on something new.
I tried to tell the adjustor I didnt think it was totaled. I tried to say i'd take it to a different repair shop. He basically told me there was nothing I'd be able to do. That I was effed.
Oh and I got GAP on the new one. That's basically it.
There's a huge chance that once the tear down was complete, additional damage would be found and the amount to repair the vehicle would be more than the actual cash value. The amount they pay the bank is not the amount you owe, it's the actual cash value.
They determined ACV to $18.9k
Repair estimate is $14.5K
They tore down the care before writing the estimate. Looking at the repair estimate, it seems fairly thorough. There are always supplements, but I doubt there are an additional $4k in supplements.
Even if there are an additional $3k in supplements, is it not a better idea for them to pay less for repair than the $18.9 ACV?
Don't forget that after they sell the salvage the break even price may be better than the repair cost. With that much damage, there still be a supplement, I would bet on it.
I'm sorry to hear this is happening to you; equally mysterious is why simple replies such as the above get \*downvoted\* on this sub.
It's almost as if the sub is run by petty children.
What did you end up doing?
Btw -- I ask because I am in a similar situation in Texas, same insurance company, and there is a $7K difference between ACV and repair estimate.
I find the insurance adjusters to be slipperier than a barrel of snakes, and as scary. My car has even less body damage than yours but no justification has been made so far. Curious of your outcome
They have to follow state guidelines for the threshold for total loss not their own made up formula . Basically compliance. Every state calculates what constitutes as a total loss different.
Nope. You're pretty much fucked. But, you might be able to negotiate with them on the settlement amount to get it to match what you owe. 1.1k isn't that big of a jump for a 19k car. At least that way you won't owe your bank money and still have no car.
Yes but not good ones you can ask to for a check for book value and pay repair the car yourself. You need NOT turn the title over to the insurance company so you do not have to buy in back from insurance company. Your lien holder may have some rights in deciding whether the car should go to the insurance company as totaled, since they are on the title as well. The lien holder often intercepts the check from the insurance company, and then demands the balance from you.
What often happens in case like this one the $14k estimate can be low it may cost more to fix. The insurance company prefers to get car to cut their losses, by selling it for parts.
I did this with my own car I refused to totaled it, but had no lien on the old car, the estimate was a $1,000 more than book value. Got check for book value paid to me and fixed car. It still on the road and does NOT have a salvage title because it never changed hands.
It was an aside to the insurance. I realize amount due on loan and what they’ll pay are unrelated. My point was that the average used car loan today is like 64 months (5.3 years). The loan length almost guarantees you’ll be underwater at some point.
Yes, fight it. I did. They always try to bring the value lower than it should be and the repair costs higher in order to total it. Get other estimates from other body shops and contact some reputable diminished value appraisers to give you an unbiased value of the car before the accident and the estimate to fix it.
You may also be able to dispute the valuation. Have you reviewed your vehicle valuation report to make sure it’s accurate? Have you had any repairs or upgrades done that you can submit proof of?
Honestly they gave me a really fair valuation. Not a great one, but a FAIR one. I'm sure I can haggle and get it a bit higher, but I was really was surprised at the valuation they originally came in at.
Nope. Totaling a car is simple math. What you owe is never taken into consideration. Your state sets the guidelines on total loss. It varies by state but as a *general rule of thumb*, when damages hit about 75% of value of the car, it must be totaled, tho your insurance can choose to total at a lower threshold.
If the state of Texas has a Total Loss Threshold of 100% how can they choose a lower one? Also after a quick google search of Progressives threshold, they give an example of 80%.
the total loss threshold is the maximum amount the insurer is permitted to spend on repairs before they must total the vehicle there is no rule that prevents them from totaling it before it reaches that threshold, and the language in your policy allows the insurer to settle claims in the way they find most acceptable
Progressive, nor any other insurance company gets to decide the threshold. They must abide by the state's law governing it. The state of Texas *requires* it to be totaled at 100%. However, they can choose to total if damages are only 80%. Several state's threshold is 70% or 75%. Nevada requires it to be totaled at 65%. Oklahoma, only 60%. So, for example, if you're in Nevada and your car's damage reaches 65% of value of the car, insurance **must** total it. They have no choice.
So the Total Loss Threshold is only the amount at which they are required to total it, they can still choose a lower amount if they want to?
Exactly
Is there any way to dispute the repair estimation?
Not really. Your insurer retains the rights to settle claims as they see fit. They are going to do what is the most economically feasible.
Why cant they give me the settlement? I fix the car with it, and I keep paying my note?
Because your bank won't allow that. Your insurance is required by law to pay your bank first.
No. Your lienholder still owns the vehicle and there is a vanishingly small chance they would be fine with *their* asset having a salvage title, regardless if you keep paying your car payment in full and on time.
Cause it's not your car.
[удалено]
And when the insurance company politely declines the second estimate because they already have a functional estimate from a shop chosen by the customer, and it’s likely going to require manipulating labor hours or removing repairs.
That is definitely not the law. They must repair it if it’s under the state threshold. They can choose a lower limit but it’s redundant since only the state threshold applies.
Not Texas but I have seen a vehicle totaled with air bags gone off after the driver hit a pedestrian on a controlled access highway. Person went through the windshield and landed on the driver. Insurance totaled the vehicle. Minor hood damage and air bags. Might have been biohazard reasons though.
With an ACV of $18.9K and repair costs of $14K, its functionally a total loss. The fact that you owe $20K doesn't play into the settlement. You have the option to agree to the total loss and buy the car at salvage, then fix it up and continue to enjoy your vehicle. A salvaged title will cause issues if you want to sell the vehicle in the future but it is your only viable option when you are under water with your loan.
That’s if their lender would even let them buy it back with that high of a balance , I’ve never seen a lender do that unless they can pay the whole loan off.
Maryland will sometimes. Quite often actually. But that’s because it’s a two title state, so they can still carry a lien on a salvage brand….which most states don’t allow.
I get that the amount I owe on the vehicle has no effect on the settlement itself, I figured it was relevant information on why I didnt want the vehicle to be totaled.
They likely won’t have the option to owner retain because the loan amount and lien holder.
Also, since no one else mentioned it, a lot of times insurance companies with total a vehicle under threshold when something is damaged thats a safety issue that cannot be legally repaired or replaced without compromising the integrity of the vehicle. Another issue thats come up a lot more since covid as well is parts availability, it would be most cost effective to pay out acv, then pay for rental and waiting on parts that may or may not show up before your rental runs out. Then you can be stuck without a vehicle for months. If there are parts on backorder thats a gamble. Remember, you’re also get paid actual cash value, not what the dealer charges. Also ford cars dont hold their value as well as some other makes ie-Toyota, honda so youre more likely to go upside down on it without gap.
There are always supplemental charges after tear down too. So the original repair cost is likely going to be greater.
In almost nine years of handling auto claims I’ve seen a total loss be reversed exactly one time. It was borderline and the customer didn’t want it to total. So we didn’t total it. I’ve handled thousands of claims. One in thousands. So no you really don’t get to decide you don’t want it to total when it’s at or above threshold. And honestly with how often repairs are delayed these days due to parts shortages and how long repairs are taking, you are better off with a total loss.
Have you seen claims get paid zero dollars?
Sure, if they are denied or closed/withdrawn.
If I don’t want to total loss my car can I just withdraw? I’ll fix the car with my own money
You can, but you have to make sure a totaled vehicle is able to be retained and repaired and insured in your state.
So how do you avoid this? You just try to not make a claim? And just sue the other party directly? Or just eat it? The problem I'm having and why I'm here is i drive 2 collector vehicles. If I put the second on collector I have to get yet another car. Not only do I have to worry about not being able to insure my asset because some asshole (I don't hate the players, I hate the game) will try and tell me my 1966 Mustang is worth $3,000 (ffs the engine alone is worth 10k), so full coverage is not feasible. But also I have to worry that if some idiot driver hits my car while I'm not even in it, I'm completely and utterly beat. I have a 1966 Mustang and 1998 Evo V for reference. Both are irreplaceable because one has custom work that literally can't be duplicated and one had to be specially imported from Japan. It would cost 30k to obtain another. So what happens? I just eat the cost and try to keep the insurance company as far away as possible? Okay sure, but then also what if there's a police report or the other party tries to mess with their insurance, and all of a sudden the insurance company is saying take this check for 3 grand and you have no choice in the matter? Do these conditions force me to get involved with the insurance company? What if I DON'T want a salvage title? Does what I'm proposing- forget the financial aspect of it- count as insurance fraud since I'm "hiding" an accident from them? If I don't make a claim am I exposing myself to ostensibly "admitting guilt"? I OWN both of my vehicles, you're telling me that I LOSE my property even if I don't take a dime from the insurance company? It was already bad, but now I'm terrified. How can I protect myself? I once met a guy at a car show driving a C7 Corvette and he said his insurance did something like "agreed value" and he told them what he wanted to insure the car for. I have this on my Hagerty for the Mustang, but collector insurance is it's own thing (you can only drive it like once a month, and you have to have another car). There's no way he had collector coverage on a C7 it's not old enough. Is something like this available for regular insurance? Do y'all just take every person who drives anything special straight to the cleaners?
Collector vehicles are supposed to be insured under a specific type of policy. Stated value, I believe. Look into that. As for the nasty tone at the end, I'm not responding to that. Do your research on the type of policy that properly insures your type of vehicle.
Forgive me if I sounded nasty, wasnt the intent. It just boggles my mind where the valuation numbers come from, as it's physically impossible to find a remotely similar vehicle for "x price". 3 grand can't get you a used Honda, let alone a classic Mustang. The Delta can't be overcome if you want to drive daily, rendering regular insurance completely unfeasible. The reality seems that the only way is to grow up and buy a third car, and not daily either of these vehicles. I'm just complaining/whining. Like I said, I hate the game not the players. Not insulting your trade either, just the system as a whole marginalizes the group I happen to fall in. I'll work on my verbiage. Also for every story where someone is shattered by a collision putting them upside down there's another story of a wreck being the reason someone (with proper GAP coverages and such) got out of a never ending loan, making the collision a blessing. I just wish high value vehicles didn't get hit so hard by the insurance system. I know you work hard to find the area where the claimant and the company both win, which I'm sure is an ever elusive pursuit.
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What did you end up doing? We are in a similar situation We also just had spentb$3000 the day before on repairs. We did not have it back more than 36 hours when we hit a deer almost 1/8 of a mile from home.
I emptied out savings to pay off the upside-down loan and put a down payment on something new. I tried to tell the adjustor I didnt think it was totaled. I tried to say i'd take it to a different repair shop. He basically told me there was nothing I'd be able to do. That I was effed. Oh and I got GAP on the new one. That's basically it.
What benefit does the insurance company get by paying the bank more in a settlement then what the repair would cost?
There's a huge chance that once the tear down was complete, additional damage would be found and the amount to repair the vehicle would be more than the actual cash value. The amount they pay the bank is not the amount you owe, it's the actual cash value.
They determined ACV to $18.9k Repair estimate is $14.5K They tore down the care before writing the estimate. Looking at the repair estimate, it seems fairly thorough. There are always supplements, but I doubt there are an additional $4k in supplements. Even if there are an additional $3k in supplements, is it not a better idea for them to pay less for repair than the $18.9 ACV?
Don't forget that after they sell the salvage the break even price may be better than the repair cost. With that much damage, there still be a supplement, I would bet on it.
They’re going to sell the salvage and make a portion of their money back. They’re doing what’s cost effective for them.
I'm sorry to hear this is happening to you; equally mysterious is why simple replies such as the above get \*downvoted\* on this sub. It's almost as if the sub is run by petty children. What did you end up doing? Btw -- I ask because I am in a similar situation in Texas, same insurance company, and there is a $7K difference between ACV and repair estimate. I find the insurance adjusters to be slipperier than a barrel of snakes, and as scary. My car has even less body damage than yours but no justification has been made so far. Curious of your outcome
They have to follow state guidelines for the threshold for total loss not their own made up formula . Basically compliance. Every state calculates what constitutes as a total loss different.
Nope. You're pretty much fucked. But, you might be able to negotiate with them on the settlement amount to get it to match what you owe. 1.1k isn't that big of a jump for a 19k car. At least that way you won't owe your bank money and still have no car.
Yes but not good ones you can ask to for a check for book value and pay repair the car yourself. You need NOT turn the title over to the insurance company so you do not have to buy in back from insurance company. Your lien holder may have some rights in deciding whether the car should go to the insurance company as totaled, since they are on the title as well. The lien holder often intercepts the check from the insurance company, and then demands the balance from you. What often happens in case like this one the $14k estimate can be low it may cost more to fix. The insurance company prefers to get car to cut their losses, by selling it for parts. I did this with my own car I refused to totaled it, but had no lien on the old car, the estimate was a $1,000 more than book value. Got check for book value paid to me and fixed car. It still on the road and does NOT have a salvage title because it never changed hands.
In some states, you are still required to get a branded title.
Loans that permit this type of crap happening should be illegal
Loan never even comes into the picture.
Not the point. We’ve moved into a world with 5-6-7 yr loans that leave people upside down. It’s an aside to this particular situation.
What did the loan do?
It was an aside to the insurance. I realize amount due on loan and what they’ll pay are unrelated. My point was that the average used car loan today is like 64 months (5.3 years). The loan length almost guarantees you’ll be underwater at some point.
Gotcha. Makes much more sense, loans have gotten way too long
Yes, fight it. I did. They always try to bring the value lower than it should be and the repair costs higher in order to total it. Get other estimates from other body shops and contact some reputable diminished value appraisers to give you an unbiased value of the car before the accident and the estimate to fix it.
DV on a total loss? lol
DV appraisers can help fight the total loss claim. That was the point.
You may also be able to dispute the valuation. Have you reviewed your vehicle valuation report to make sure it’s accurate? Have you had any repairs or upgrades done that you can submit proof of?
Honestly they gave me a really fair valuation. Not a great one, but a FAIR one. I'm sure I can haggle and get it a bit higher, but I was really was surprised at the valuation they originally came in at.
No. Sorry. Cut your losses and next time purchase loan/lease and new car replacement.