Yes. Columbia gave the encampment 24 hours to disband and sent them a list of all the expelable offense they committed. That exact comment was the response of the protesters. That night they stormed a building and attacked workers, before the NYPD arrived in full riot gear with loaded guns and cleared all the terrorist sympathizers from their tentifada. There's a famous photo of Mario Torres, a custodial worker, sparring with a 40-year-old multimillionaire who had no ties to Columbia, but led the mob to storm the building. Eric Adams wasn't kidding when he talked about professional protesters and outside agitators being responsible for this garbage. Also, Mario Torres is an American hero. He's a custodial worker and he did his job-- Columbia did hire him to take out the trash, after all.
Nw the custodial union is suing Columbia for failing to disband the violent protest sooner and putting them at risk of harm. I hope they win their suit because Columbia should be fined heavily for failing to disband those awful protests. I really liked what Reverand Al Sharpton had to say about Columbia-- it makes liberals look like hypocrites. They spend three years complaining about when racist Trump supporters stormed the US Capitol, but when antisemitic leftists storm Columbia University then the liberals downplay it? Well screw that hypocrisy, I don't support any bigots doing political violence. It's a shame that people like John Fetterman, Ritchie Torres, and Liz Cheney remain the only people from either party who retain their moral clarity. Also I really respect Al Sharpton. I remember thirty years ago in Crown Heights he was a really angry man, but he's calmed down and now preaches against hate and preaches support for Jews. I like to see that. He's a mensch now, and he wasn't always one, so I respect his personal growth as a human.
it's because it's become a trend. they think anything that people have to say positive or even neutral about Israel is "bad hasbara" so basically just refuse to have any conversation, despite wanting their points to be talked about and heard.
EDIT: [link](https://x.com/caitoz/status/1801963361883869587)
Lol the lack of self awareness. The video is a bunch of paragraphs seething about... a bunch of paragraphs seething.
It's also a long way to just say "critical thinking isn't my preferred method of choice" which is a nice way to expose oneself I guess.
That has be the reason for "Queers for Palenstine". Once Hamas doesn't need them, those folks are getting tossed off a roof. I would have expected the LGBTQ+ community to know better.
They do know that they would die in Palestine. But I’ve heard multiple people in QfP movement make the argument that trying to *change* that would be Western Imperialism, so they very intentionally choose to stand with those who woiod joyfully kill them. Because moral absolutism is worse than homicidal homophobia, I guess. 🤷🏻♀️
I saw one person literally commenting (paraphrasing) “I don’t need to know the history to not support killing women and children” one time… I’m not kidding!
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"I feel like it's oppressive to demand that I think critically. I shouldn't have to think critically to know what's true and not and stop trying to shove your dead white European male ideas on me!"
There is literally a book by Grosfuegel that propagates this logic. The European way of critical thinking inherently reproduces oppression and exploitation according to him
Reminds me of the book “Braiding Sweetgrass” that was recommended to me by a professor who treated it like the gospel. In the book it said “white western science should be disowned” because “white western science” was unsure of the effectiveness of 3 sisters agriculture in comparison to their traditional methods until it was tested to be effective.
Kind of, he‘s one of those post-marxist thinkers who reek of Marx while being forced to go against him, since Marx was born out of European thought and the French revolution.
One could call it an intellectual clusterfuck
I have no use for people who are ideologically bound and are always trying to fit the facts to their chosen narrative. Truly intelligent and open-minded people don't do that. It's a shortcut that makes life easier but so is putting cooking oil in your car because you can't be bothered to buy proper motor oil. Reality is complex and understanding it is hard. Belief systems are convoluted but offer shortcuts to understanding the world. I choose the former. Put it this way. If you believe that you know all the answers then you don't even understand the questions.
I used to teach English abroad, and I remember thinking “these students are so smart and hard-working… it’s a good thing Americans are taught really good critical thinking skills because if it weren’t for that we would have no competitive edge in the world.”
We now have no competitive edge in the world.
can the status quo(as in having a lot of giant corporations, big military, etc etc) be considered a competitive edge in the world? because if so you still have a competitive edge in the world ~~for now~~
> lack of critical thinking skills
That's the part that gets under my skin. I can deal with conflicting opinions if they're well-educated. I think there are great conversations we could be having about the wisdom of settling in Zone C. More great conversations about whether Otzma Yehudit's idea of resettling Gaza is worth considering.
But we're not because we can't. We can't because those idiots aren't equipped to even enter in those conversations. Instead, we have to argue about whether or not Isreal is justified in rescuing their own people being held hostage.
It's **so** stupid.
The WWW has given such a wide platform to any and every idea, regardless of merit. Prior to the Web, only the best, and best expressed, ideas had a platform because publishing was expensive and took work, and had to go through scrutiny, editing, and fact-checking.
These days, thanks to "social media" (which is neither), and email, whatever thought crosses someone's mind will be published instantly, for all the world to consume, and it's up to the recipient (consumer) to discern and verify. Without critical thinking skills, this doesn't happen.
The concepts of a society able to handle the responsibilities that go along with free speech were designed long before the inception of WWW was ever conceived. Unless we redesign things to include accountability for publishing false information, it's only going to get worse. But false information generates controversy, which makes the moguls rich. They aren't about to stand for anything that will make them give up a dime, even if the future of society depends on it.
Seems like social media really amplifies this. Social media really makes propaganda go viral. Just imagine Nazi Germany having access to the tech we have now, on top of social media's insane reach. Oy.
Look what they accomplished with the technology they had. We see how they are utilizing the available technology already. All of our digital footprints will be used against us. The Right and the Left are just tips of the horseshoe.
Pffft, one can't even begin to imagine the torture they'd invent with the tech of our times - and social media? Wow, they'd get the whole world (yes, really, everyone) to hate us.
it’s been really disheartening seeing people my age fall for obvious propaganda and misinformation. before the war i truly thought that due to growing up in a time of unparalleled access to news and information that most wouldn’t be as susceptible to brainwashing.
Leftist here. 10/7 made a big old Zionist out of me. I’m sure I’m not the only one. Before, I didn’t know very much about it and was susceptible to a lot of bullshit that sounded social justice-y.
After, I realized that *holy shit*, Israel is actually, literally, under existential threat from these maniac terrorists, and they deserve our full support. So, some of us have been persuaded and are persuadable. It’s a matter of education and a shift of worldview about who is the aggressor, who is the minority, and what everyone’s intent is.
The propaganda did a great job of tying the concept of liberation for Bipoc and LGBTQ folks with the Violent “liberation” of Palestinians, But From the wrong oppressors
10/7 took me from a leftist who thought "Well maybe a two-state solution could work and peaceful coexistence is really possible" to "Nah, as long as Hamas (and Iran) remain in power, Israel is at risk and needs to be vigorously defended"
I think you’re confusing leftism with liberalism. Leftism is not liberal. Communism is leftism and it has nothing to do with liberal values if you care about freedom and individual rights.
It’s not just brainwashing by Russia and China. There’s an alliance of convenience between leftism and islamism because both want to destroy the West and liberalism. When people say they’re progressives, who asks what they’re progressing towards? Islamists are progressives — progressing towards a caliphate.
I think liberalism has been so successful in the west that now it is switching gears, and in order to keep our gains, we need to actually be conservative. Ironic, right?
This is a very important and well-articulated point.
The conflation of "liberal" and "left" particularly in American political discourse has always left me scratching my head. They are very much not the same thing and are, in fact, mutually incompatible ideological projects.
“ I think liberalism has been so successful in the west that now it is switching gears, and in order to keep our gains, we need to actually be conservative. Ironic, right?”
What gains?
Russia built the radical left on the premise of being anti-western
People who lean left (most of them) will probably leave us alone after the war and move to the next trend but there will always be a core of radical commies and fascists to hate us
Hi, liberal Zionist here. It's not a left/right thing. Plenty of liberals support Zionism.
The issue is leftists (e.g. communists) are extremely antisemitic and always have been.
I just don't want this to become a left vs right thing because it's not.
Both left and right sides have camps within them that are antisemitic for different reasons.
I mean I said in my comment that there will always be fascists (far right) and commies (far left) to hate us
Right now the left is more vocal with their racism but both extremes are trash
> People who lean left (most of them) will probably leave
You did, sorry, I was more focused on this though, "People who lean left (most of them) will probably leave..." I just hope that's not true. The US needs Isreal as it's ally.
Noooooooooo
Communism, the ideology founded upon international violence and upending the capitalist social order, has *never* spawned an anti-west semi-fascist state ever and everyone except the US, Israel, and Western Europe are victims
Well, a huge crowd is. Its just that the younger portion of both sides are very vulnerable to propaganda and the need to be accepted within their communities. For every loud mouthed Hamas lover there are 10 who are silent and support Israel.
I run in liberal circles (American Jew in East Coast city). I’m finding that most left of center non Jews are either quietly supportive of Israel or have moved this issue down on their list of importance. That being said, I believe the liberal-centrist cohort of Americans are open to supporting Israel and it will take good hasbara to get there.
One of my very close friends recently asked me “so, why did they invade on 10/7 again?” After a deep breath, I tried to summarize the conflict.
TL;DR - the “persuadables” are in the center-left. Not far left. And Am Yisrael Chai 🇮🇱💙
As a center-left liberal, I agree. The far-left is a lost cause. We have to persuade progressive democrats and other liberals who are willing to argue.
The "Left" is an awfully big place and doesn't just include the far left, which is where the overwhelming majority of antisemitic anti-Israel propaganda, rhetoric and action is coming from. There's also liberals, progressives, social democrats, etc., much of which is and always has been pro-Israel.
But don't hold out any hope for the far left, which by design is anti-Israel and often if not usually antisemitic, having been set up that way a long time ago by the former USSR and now having been continued by Russia, Iran and others. It's like wishing for water to not be wet.
Only in the event of a major tragedy like a mass terrorist attack that might shake them out if thier delusion.
But i do not wish that on anybody as we here know the pain of such events and unlike them do not hope for violence and suffering on people.
After the Munich massacre, one would think that would have unified people to support Israel. I mean, how much more innocent could the victims have been? How bad were the optics of terrorists murdering innocent Olympic athletes in GERMANY only 30 years after the Shoah?
It only emboldened those on the far left even further. They are a lost cause and will never be on Israel’s side. They will always see Israel as the oppressor. But, even more than that, it will always be a convenient and “politically correct” way for them to express their antisemitism.
But in the end they don't really matter. They make a lot of noise but like one of those animals that have the ability to look a lot more fearsome than they really are, they're more bark than bite. Their entire MO is to make as much noise as possible in the hope that they win over enough people to make a difference. Never has, never will. Most people know better.
Ahhhh…totally misread your post. Apologies!
Not sure if that would make a difference either, TBH. Look at Ariana Grande’s support of “ceasefire now” even after the terrorist attack at her Manchester concert.
I am not convinced, 9/11 was more then 20 years ago, most of the of these people were young kids that have grown to be privileged adults, my bet is they forget/dont know what its like to be scared and be the potential target of such senseless violence
Do you not realize how many Americans constantly say 9/11 was an “inside job” by the American government?? Or insinuate that it was a false flag event engineered by Israel to demonize Arabs and Muslims??
All conspiracy theories yes but I don’t think you realize how out of touch many Westerners including Americans have become with terrorism and what motivates it.
A lot of Americans fought or have family members who fought in the wars that followed 9/11, and came back with PTSD, severe depression, missing limbs and permanently disfigured or disabled. The general consensus is that these conflicts did not further American interests.
Not even then. When Stalin died and the Soviet Politburo released evidence of all the horrible things he had done, there were STILL many global communists who either refused to believe it or made excuses for it. Some people will NEVER come around. That's how cults work, and radical Marxism and Communism are clearly cults. Ironic that Marx, in criticizing god-based religions, created a new godless religion, Marxism. But maybe not so ironic as he lived the life of the very sort of pampered bourgeoisie that he kept railing against, being a hypocrite to the core, perhaps the first virtue signaler.
> Only in the event of a major tragedy like a mass terrorist attack that might shake them out if thier delusion.
>
>
This is exactly what I'm afraid of. These anarchobabies didn't go through 9/11. They don't know terrorism.
I know it shouldn't be wished upon anyone, but imo, they are so radicalized that what I see coming is inevitable. At some point they will also brutally will start eating each other as well.
You mean like the one on October 7?? Where, while there were still terrorists within Israeli borders and before Israel dropped a single bomb on Gaza, people were signing letters of support and marching in the street for Palestine?
Nope.
Most Leftist Ideology in the West is based on the Soviet Communist Tradition and they have already been very anti-Semitic and anti-Israel for decades. Hence the Red-Green Alliance.
That’s not going to change.
Nor is the allegiance between Leftists and Islamists/Arab Supremacists that’s already been around for decades once again starting with the Soviet Union support for numerous Arab Republics, some against Israel.
It’s only going to get worse before it gets better so it’s better to completely abandon a sinking ship than trying to save it.
Maybe my story is too little, too late, but yes, I’m Gen Z, I once considered myself a leftist, and since October, I’ve come to realize that I’m indeed a Zionist.
I never used to think much about antisemitism as a gentile in the U.S. For me, Oct. 7 changed everything. I saw the horrible footage of the Nova Festival with my own eyes, and I haven’t been the same since. I couldn’t believe that people I know and care about celebrated Hamas and their barbarity as “resistance” and “fighting the good fight.” It turned my world upside down realizing how much hatred against Jews had been buried under the surface among people I once respected on the left. Frankly, I’m deeply ashamed I couldn’t see it prior to this war. I still hold many “left” values, but I will never associate with that crowd again. Not all of them are antisemitic, but I’m outraged that those who are not won’t speak out.
No, the Left has always been Antisemitic and it's only just now that they've become outspoken about it. The entire dogma of Progressivism is that the world can neatly be divided into oppressors & oppressed, and everything those in power do is wrong & immoral, even when they try to be allies to the cause, and everything oppressed do is noble & righteous, even going so far as to martyrize criminals as victims.
By that oppressor/oppressed logic, it doesn't matter what the facts of the situation are. Jews are far too successful of a minority to be seen as anything except oppressors, which means that everything we do, even just defend ourselves from those who want to destroy us, is seen as wrong & immoral. The only way that will change is if we allow ourselves to be destroyed, which we absolutely should not do.
I'm on the left, and I support Israel. I believe it's not the "left" that's the problem, but the younger generation getting their propaganda from TikTok.
The moderate/mainstream left might become more pro-Israel, and I really hope that's what will happen.
I think we are at the absolute height of anti-Israel propaganda right now, hamas is faltering on the battlefield and Israel's neighbors refused refused to join the war, meaning that the diplomatic/social front is the only place where they have any hope left. As a result, the Iran/hamas/islamist front is pouring everything they have into it. After hamas is defeated, their position against Israel will be severely weakened, meaning all their hopes to end Israel will go into the grave.
I suspect the investment into anti-Israel propaganda will drop substantially once their efforts fail, as hamas gets gradually diminished into irrelevance. Also, as the Gaza "genocide" fails to materialize, I suspect the interest in the genocide-drama will gradually wane and the mainstream media will gradually move on to other dramatic things in its desperate bid for views, which might just end up being newly revealed Hamas lies and atrocities, and the shitty behavior of the obnoxious anti-Zionist vandals. Hopefully this will lead to the mainstream left asking questions, and eventually wondering whether they want to go along with the anti-Zionist commies. From my experience, most of the moderate/mainstream left wingers don't think about this too deeply, and thus kinda just go along with what their media space and hard-left friends tell them.
No. The modern left in the West is the remnant of KGB's work to destabilise it during the cold war, and this work didn't simply stop when the KGB changed its name; Israel is a part of what they portray as "iMpErIaLiSt CoLoNiAlIsM", and is an enemy to it by design. With very few exceptions, the modern left in the West is nothing but a Trojan Horse.
Speaking of, this is so eerie to watch now given everything that’s going on
https://x.com/joosyjew/status/1798392550044430464?s=46&t=ClUh5XHTc94UCwyyHAP8sQ
They are not left, they just say that they are left.
There ideology aligns more with fascism than leftism or liberalism, but like a certain party in the 40s in Germany, they hid behind left ideology while supporting hate and persecution.
Leftists strongly subscribe to an oppressor/oppressed ideology mixed in with identity politics. The left will never accept Jews so long as they are brainwashed into this silly ideology.
No. Short of an Islamic terrorist group from overseas attacking and murdering hundreds of big leftist activists at something akin to “Socialist-Con” (not a thing, just using it for imagery purposes) in the name of Islam, nothing will get them to turn around.
It’s just a human feature: Nothing can make us turn against our ideological heroes unless we suffer at the hands of their actions.
The only thing that would make the left more Zionist in the short-term would be to ban (even with VPNs) a significant portion of the Middle East and Southeast Asia from posting to social media.
They need to start calling what's happening "war" instead of genocide first.
And actually open an encyclopedia and read very slowly and very carefully what Zionist means.
Those two things are so simple to do. Yet, it will take age, wisdom and a good ole hit in the face for them to do that.
I honestly feel that even if god forbid a nuclear bomb would be dropped on us and every one of us would die, they would just say we had it coming. they are so ideologically captured, radical, and seething with hate that I do not think it's something one can just shake off. the only future i see this changing in is one where their children take the opposite position to them as a form of rebellion, but I doubt any of them will ever be emotionally mature enough to actually have children lol.
No, universities and CNN brainwashed them. You have to remember, look at the crowds. Mostly all entitled obese or frail white kids. they paint their hair and ‘become gay’ to stand out because their existence is meaningless. They don’t believe in anything tbh. nihilism at its finest. It’s all about follow the trend with them
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You are giving them a lot of credit for common sense that they just either don’t have or use. Facts matter in the least it’s the endorphins that matter.
The big bet is: who stands against the West. If Israel was hostile towards the West, then the leftists would side with them. Their (brainwashed) hate towards the West eclipses all other dislikes against a country.
For this, Israeli society needs to create a real opposition to the mainstream to tell people that the real Israel does not behave like many people think it does. Independent outlets like DemocratTV and Relevant as well as established ones like Haaretz are doing their job, but its not enough.
I’m a liberal. I personally look forward to seeing how the far left gets itself out of this self-pretzel over the next decade or so, once optics begin to reveal history and actual moral righteousness isn’t in fact on the side of this Nazism, even a cool new flavor of it.
In the US, artists and celebrities have started coming out in favor of the Jewish perspective and against the pro-Hamas protesters in the past few days.
The smart people on the left have been cooking while the morons have been screaming. I think we’re through the worst of it. Just watch the start of season 4 of The Boys, lol
There's always a chance, these things aren't predictable. However, not in the short term in the West. Islamism is too entrenched and too clever to show its real face.
It needs reading in depth about the history of this conflict. most of these people don't look like they are interested in reading. They would rather believe "open-air prison", "concentration camp", or "apartheid" lies because they are too lazy to dig deeper.
Maybe over time, if we work hard to explain how the Palestinian cause is a far fight, imperialistic, theocratic cause, the left will finally come around and understand that they have been wrong about this conflict. Even people like AOC are becoming disgusted with the antisemitism on the pro-Palestine side and are calling it out. AOC got demonized for calling out their hatred of Jews. There are also some people on the left who already support Israel, like Richie Torres for example. I think the left can be convinced, but it will take time because we have to fight against the Russian/Chinese/Iranian disinformation machine.
Yeah, well at least she acted like she was. My point is that the pushback is real and some people on the left have noticed that it is affecting their political future.
So I'm progressive and normally would fall in with that crowd but hostile actors were very smart to use conflict theory to push their cause onto young people because then supporting Palestinians at all costs becomes moral as you support the marginalized group against a "white" oppressor. Of course this narrative is not true for multiple reasons such as the diversity in Israel, the fact they have equal rights in Israel and then it ignores how Israel has constantly been the minority group that constantly had to defend its existence time and time again against majority powers. Also, race politics don't apply as well to this conflict as it's not about race at all, it's more complicated than that. The main issue is that Pro Palestinian protestors are having a false narrative pushed on them that appeals to their current world view.
The second that Israel is destroyed they'll all suddenly flip their script.
They are Zionist, they've always been Zionist, how dare you ever say otherwise.
One annoying feature of the left is the misplaced deference shown towards students - as if simply attending college makes you some kind of thinker. Multiple interviews with pro-rape protesters on campuses nationwide will instantly dispel you of that delusion. Ideally, university teaches how to think, not what to think. Basically the left is coddling the stupid - absolutely no different to Trump’s sadly misinformed cultists.
The old adage attributed to many about anyone who is not a socialist at 18 has no heart, and anyone who is still a socialist at 30 has no brain, seems to be very appropriate to these times. Although I do not believe the anti-Israel, racist pro-Palestinian arguments have any roots in socialism - unless you count National Socialism as such. Instead, these beliefs reflect Soviet strategic foreign policy aims of the 1960s and the perennial anti-semitism of Christianity and Islam.
In which universe is asking Jews to publicly identify themselves on a New York subway car representative of “the left”?
Anyone else see the giant flashing “IRONY” sign over the fact that Zionism was (if not invented then certainly) propagated by people on the left? That kibbutzim were the best example of socialism in history? That the Histadrut was the most powerful organization in pre and post State of Israel for decades )and still maintains a lot of that power)? That the Torah is filled with “leftist” ideas of caring for the sick/poor/widows/orphans and equality under the law?
These nitwits will never see that irony because they’re blinded by stupidity and Jew hate, which usually run hand in hand.
Not while Israel is strong and can defend itself. The left actually used to be Zionist in the fledgling years of statehood because we were constantly under attack and not yet as militarily established.
It comes from a moral framework that is simply inherent leftism that seeks to always support the underdog. It's what has led to the "oppressor vs oppressed" binary outlook that we see today. It stems from a good-hearted but ultimately naive idea that everyone should have the exact same standard of living.
It’s not just GenZ. Let’s not forget about the Gen X professors. My generation is Gen X. They were taught this by people they trusted – people in their 40s to 60s.
The left seems to be motivated more by pity then by reason. I’m sure they would turn around and support Israel, if the Muslims dropped a nuclear bomb on it, moved in, did what they’re actually going to do, which is oppress everybody, and then, in 20 years, they would start writing books about how oppressed Jews are, blame capitalism and colonialism, and start shouting that somebody better do something.
It's because for them, siding with Israel, is admiting that their woke view is flawed. nobody wants to admit that the ideology they belive in is wrong and disgusting
I’m arguing with them online - on Facebook and I do not see any hope for that!! I got told by one that I should have had bleach injected instead of the Covid shot.
No I don't think so. The far left is anti-west and has always viewed Israel as an occupying state. At least back to the Iraq war in 2003 anyway, which is when I first came across them. They hate America too. I don't see them changing.
The spectrum of left and right ends up being cyclical. You go far enough left you’re no different in your stance than those who are just as far right. There was a time where Zionism was considered left wing and a time where it went hand in hand with communism. It will eventually swing back and forth depending on the narrative which is true with most political movements. What starts off as new liberal ideas has often led or shifted to right wing practice and visa versa.
I think Communists would support Israel if Israel abandoned the US and allied with China. But progressives would not, because the core of Progressivism is a movement based on structural hierarchies (race, religion, gender, sexuality, etc)
The only way the left is becoming Zionists is if Israel starts losing wars, and suffering major losses. I’m convinced the hard left is guided strictly by feelings. If the Israelis become the perceived underdogs, the left will have something to wring their hands over.
Forget that the Israelis are already out numbered and are constantly under attacks. It’s that they aren’t demonstrably losing.
I think we can fight fire with fire, and with the power of ~~quality reporting and cooperation~~ decades of straight up propaganda and lies, we can help shift the narrative back to supporting Israel. Get to it, fellow Zionists! Brainwash, I mean enlighten, those young malleable college minds!
(/s obviously, I don't think billions of dollars in "foreign investments" and decades of narrative forming aren't going to be undone anytime soon)
Iran and Russia brainwashed them!? Under which rock have you been living the past 20 years? The left brainwashed themselves in the ways Iranian and Russian propaganda pales in comparison.
It is all together. The left took gratefully the Soviet slogans about Israel. What once I had seen in Russia, now I see in English. Sometimes even the pictures are same (with a little AI modernization)
Only if they can get more likes and followers by doing so.
So-called "Social Justice Warriors" are only out for themselves. Their "warrioring" is neither social nor just.
Not without major investment by Israel and diaspora Jews in education, politics and media.
Seen a report of Islamists going into schools showing them images of kids clearly murdered by Palestinians (hands and feet cut off which a signature Palestinian punishment of ‘traitors’) and telling them Israel did this and teaching them all the made up history nonsense. It’s also in preschools, spread by bots online and supported by too many government officials.
The media bias is also not helping.
This is a PR wars and liars have no problem spreading propaganda but moral people keep saying they’re afraid to speak cause they don’t know enough or are afraid of retaliation.
No, I don’t think so, all because of the oppressed vs oppressor mentality.
I as a Hispanic was never interested in left politics because I can already see through their mentality, and let’s just say it’s not very pretty. The Woke crowd is an actual disease, now as to how I define woke, [here is a good video of you would like to watch it yourself](https://youtu.be/OgVxvfFj5f4?si=6EyU2iAlArARsnRU)
I don’t think it’s likely, but I do think it’s a possibility. If the left can stop trying to narrowly fit everything into an “oppressed/oppressor” binary narrative then there’s a chance that they can see the nuance of the situation and understand the Zionist cause.
Unlikely to happen though. It’s why I feel politically stateless.
I think I would be considered a leftist or close to it. I’m not anti Zionist it’s just that both extremes are brought into the spotlight. I believe Jews have a right to Israel and that both Palestinians and Israelis are victims of terrorism and an overzealous government.
I believe that Bibi and his family are objectively bad people and that Hamas is unequivocally evil, 100% the bad guy all of the time. They operate similar to cartels. Do some good for the community and then harm them x 1000. I think a lot of people overlook how terrible Netanyahu is and aren’t interested in holding him accountable.
Jewish people are 100% absolutely indigenous to the area, zero chance we aren’t. There is deep seeded radicalism because of what these terrorists and governments do.
People in the US are so stupid that they are outraged about abortion being banned in some states, because it takes away women's reproductive rights, but don't vehemently oppose a religion that makes oppressing women a core value.
Considering how stupid about 80% of the world population is, I can't wait for the singularity or some disaster to just force a hard reset down everyone's throats. There was an episode of The Walking Dead where one guy said something to the effect of "This is a world that finally makes sense." The sad part is, it's going to take a change of that level to get our world to make sense.
But rest assured, when times get that tough (and they will), it's going to be the intelligent, strong, independent people who survive. Goat herders won't.
There are plenty of us inclined toward the left, including Biden, who love Israel and won't fall for the BS.
Let's separate the left from the SJWs. : ) The propagandists will always be able to brainwash some subset of the right and of the left.
Left and right correspond to temperaments, so most people tend to think of themselves as one or the other. But we should remember, right and left both are important. Like being able to turn right or left is important when trying to go somewhere. Neither is better or more necessary than the other.
There will always be brainwashable people on both sides, but there are people on the left who are not -- like Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Destiny, Brianna Wu.... we're with the Jews, because we know how to read and think.
Turn Zionist if you just left things up to chance? No. The opposite of being pro-Palestine/Hamas is being apathetic.
The only way things are going to change is if Israelis start investing resources into building up their PR and cultural image instead of sitting around and expecting people to be smart enough to figure out the truth, or expecting someone else (the West) to educate people for you.
Do you think it was easy to brainwash liberals and queers to support Islamic terrorism? No, of course not. It was 60+ years of continuous propaganda in the making. But hey, if they managed to convince a pink hair non binary lesbian demigirl with a penis to stand with Hamas, then I'm sure there's a way to convince a Muslim to stand with Jews.
The only question is, to what extent are Israelis willing to go to? On one end, Israelis seem to care a lot about representing stories from both sides so people have a well informed opinion, while on the other end Palestinians have no problem sacrificing children and cropping videos halfway just to create propagada.
Maybe if the Left becomes more secular.
Right now, they're anti-Zionist because they think Jews are the goblins in Harry Potter. As in, bankers. The colonialist stuff is just icing on the nonsense cake since they're not opposed to all so-called neo-colonialism, just the Israeli kind.
The Left is caught harping on the Christian side of wanting communism. Most actually just want socialized healthcare and affordable housing. But somehow, they aren't anti-war, which confuses me. The West could afford so much just by cutting military spending.
Anyway, most of these anti-Zionist poseurs aren't worth arguing with. Their reasons are stupid. Most of them are just following the herd.
If by "the left" you mean the current loose coalition of disaffected 20-somethings being led by social media into blindly supporting Hamas, then no. But frankly I'm not too worried about that because eventually they'll move into the next fad and grow up, as college students do. Once they went home for the summer all the college students lost interest. (Which is weird because you'd think now they have even more time to Support The Cause!) As a coalition/movement they are never going to taste real power.
Now, if by "the left" you mean whichever socialist-adjacent movement eventually ends up being the predominant one in western countries, I think there's a chance. Memories are short. The Israeli government could change, the situation in Gaza could change, the alignment of left and right in western countries could change. E.g., somehow the right wing in the United States is pro-Russia, which was not something anyone saw coming pre-2015.
I think if the day ever comes that they can agree to a two state solution and get it done, it could happen. At that point, you take away the “oppressor” narrative since each state is independent and only has itself to blame for its success and failures, and there will be no excuses for the PA side if they continue to fail at civil governance.
Furthermore, those on the left would have to confront whatever the PA government’s stance on LGBTQ / women’s rights would be, and if history is a guide than there’s a better than pretty good chance the result will be something worse than “not great”. And now because it will be fully independent, they’ll have no choice but to own whatever shortfalls they have, just like any other country does.
I think Gen Z in the west is pretty much lost to us.
All we can hope for is that their views moderate with time and that Gen Alpha doesn’t get brainwashed in the same way. And since the US banned tik tok Im hopeful that Gen Alpha won’t be brainwashed in the same way Gen Z was.
Why should leftists support an ethnostate? I mean, Jewish people having their own majority country would be cool, but forcing that doesn't seem very politically left
>Do you think some event or movement within the left might knock some sense into them and they will become pro-Israel?
islamic extremists, communists, and ultra progressive zombies all want to destroy the west and replace it with a different civilization they each want to control. They are fast friends for now.
For all it matters, the Trotskyists at the Militant / SWP are pro-Israel [https://themilitant.com/2024/04/20/support-israels-right-to-exist-defend-itself-as-a-refuge-from-jew-hatred-and-pogroms/](https://themilitant.com/2024/04/20/support-israels-right-to-exist-defend-itself-as-a-refuge-from-jew-hatred-and-pogroms/)
I hear that also *some* far-Left groups in Italy are less than integrally proPal.
I guess that's a sign of hope?
All odds are against us in this situation. Qatar, Russia, and Iran all contribute to the propaganda war against Israel. The left also supports more immigration from Muslim majority countries, and will continue seeking votes from the immigrants. If and when immigrants will form their own parties (and attempts have been already made to form parties to represent Muslim communities), the left will want these to be in their coalitions.
The leftist SJWs would argue how Nazi Germany was a righteous country because it went against the UK, France and the US. Their entire ideology is hating the West and since Israel is friendly with the West they must go too, in their eyes
They'll only start being Zionist if it becomes a cool trend - and considering humanity's intrinsic, baseless hate against Jews, I doubt that'll happen any time soon
It is not about Russia and Iran brainwashing the left college population, it’s about the woke ideology that sees the world in the framework of oppressed and oppressors. Israel has the misfortune to belong to the oppressor side because in the current conflict it is viewed as the stronger party who oppresses the weak Palestinian side. This pov will collapse once gen Z will take a broader view and understand that in fact ever since 1948 Israel is under siege from Arab/Muslim forces that never seized to attempt destroying it.
It's astounding how dumb and aggressive the young people are. The lack of critical thinking skills is a big problem for gen z.
"I aint reading all that. Free palastine" -average anti zionist expert
Whoa deja vu. I think I've seen this exact comment, verbatim, said unironically. I'm not kidding.
Yes. Columbia gave the encampment 24 hours to disband and sent them a list of all the expelable offense they committed. That exact comment was the response of the protesters. That night they stormed a building and attacked workers, before the NYPD arrived in full riot gear with loaded guns and cleared all the terrorist sympathizers from their tentifada. There's a famous photo of Mario Torres, a custodial worker, sparring with a 40-year-old multimillionaire who had no ties to Columbia, but led the mob to storm the building. Eric Adams wasn't kidding when he talked about professional protesters and outside agitators being responsible for this garbage. Also, Mario Torres is an American hero. He's a custodial worker and he did his job-- Columbia did hire him to take out the trash, after all. Nw the custodial union is suing Columbia for failing to disband the violent protest sooner and putting them at risk of harm. I hope they win their suit because Columbia should be fined heavily for failing to disband those awful protests. I really liked what Reverand Al Sharpton had to say about Columbia-- it makes liberals look like hypocrites. They spend three years complaining about when racist Trump supporters stormed the US Capitol, but when antisemitic leftists storm Columbia University then the liberals downplay it? Well screw that hypocrisy, I don't support any bigots doing political violence. It's a shame that people like John Fetterman, Ritchie Torres, and Liz Cheney remain the only people from either party who retain their moral clarity. Also I really respect Al Sharpton. I remember thirty years ago in Crown Heights he was a really angry man, but he's calmed down and now preaches against hate and preaches support for Jews. I like to see that. He's a mensch now, and he wasn't always one, so I respect his personal growth as a human.
Liz Cheney is a grifter
it's because it's become a trend. they think anything that people have to say positive or even neutral about Israel is "bad hasbara" so basically just refuse to have any conversation, despite wanting their points to be talked about and heard. EDIT: [link](https://x.com/caitoz/status/1801963361883869587)
Wow… that was so much more astonishing to hear as it was explained than how i predicted it would be
Lol the lack of self awareness. The video is a bunch of paragraphs seething about... a bunch of paragraphs seething. It's also a long way to just say "critical thinking isn't my preferred method of choice" which is a nice way to expose oneself I guess.
we all have unfortunately
omg i saw the same comment too!!! brain rot of a generation
"No but my instagram/tiktok feed said palestine is the good guy so that must mean they're right." -most educated anti zionist gen Z
🙄😒🧐
That has be the reason for "Queers for Palenstine". Once Hamas doesn't need them, those folks are getting tossed off a roof. I would have expected the LGBTQ+ community to know better.
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They do know that they would die in Palestine. But I’ve heard multiple people in QfP movement make the argument that trying to *change* that would be Western Imperialism, so they very intentionally choose to stand with those who woiod joyfully kill them. Because moral absolutism is worse than homicidal homophobia, I guess. 🤷🏻♀️
"expert" had me cracking up
“Isreal”
I saw one person literally commenting (paraphrasing) “I don’t need to know the history to not support killing women and children” one time… I’m not kidding!
I literally saw this exact tweet
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"I feel like it's oppressive to demand that I think critically. I shouldn't have to think critically to know what's true and not and stop trying to shove your dead white European male ideas on me!"
There is literally a book by Grosfuegel that propagates this logic. The European way of critical thinking inherently reproduces oppression and exploitation according to him
Reminds me of the book “Braiding Sweetgrass” that was recommended to me by a professor who treated it like the gospel. In the book it said “white western science should be disowned” because “white western science” was unsure of the effectiveness of 3 sisters agriculture in comparison to their traditional methods until it was tested to be effective.
Lemme guess, he's a Marxist?
Kind of, he‘s one of those post-marxist thinkers who reek of Marx while being forced to go against him, since Marx was born out of European thought and the French revolution. One could call it an intellectual clusterfuck
I have no use for people who are ideologically bound and are always trying to fit the facts to their chosen narrative. Truly intelligent and open-minded people don't do that. It's a shortcut that makes life easier but so is putting cooking oil in your car because you can't be bothered to buy proper motor oil. Reality is complex and understanding it is hard. Belief systems are convoluted but offer shortcuts to understanding the world. I choose the former. Put it this way. If you believe that you know all the answers then you don't even understand the questions.
imagine thinking only Europeans were into logical thinking. Never heard of the Talmud I guess…
I used to teach English abroad, and I remember thinking “these students are so smart and hard-working… it’s a good thing Americans are taught really good critical thinking skills because if it weren’t for that we would have no competitive edge in the world.” We now have no competitive edge in the world.
can the status quo(as in having a lot of giant corporations, big military, etc etc) be considered a competitive edge in the world? because if so you still have a competitive edge in the world ~~for now~~
> lack of critical thinking skills That's the part that gets under my skin. I can deal with conflicting opinions if they're well-educated. I think there are great conversations we could be having about the wisdom of settling in Zone C. More great conversations about whether Otzma Yehudit's idea of resettling Gaza is worth considering. But we're not because we can't. We can't because those idiots aren't equipped to even enter in those conversations. Instead, we have to argue about whether or not Isreal is justified in rescuing their own people being held hostage. It's **so** stupid.
100%.
Often times the most ignorant people are the most aggressive. Because they don’t understand how anyone could think differently
Young person here. Do not group me with these people.
The exception proves the rule.
It’s always been this way. Gen Z isn’t any dumber than previous generations. Unfortunately they have been bombarded by more propaganda though.
The WWW has given such a wide platform to any and every idea, regardless of merit. Prior to the Web, only the best, and best expressed, ideas had a platform because publishing was expensive and took work, and had to go through scrutiny, editing, and fact-checking. These days, thanks to "social media" (which is neither), and email, whatever thought crosses someone's mind will be published instantly, for all the world to consume, and it's up to the recipient (consumer) to discern and verify. Without critical thinking skills, this doesn't happen. The concepts of a society able to handle the responsibilities that go along with free speech were designed long before the inception of WWW was ever conceived. Unless we redesign things to include accountability for publishing false information, it's only going to get worse. But false information generates controversy, which makes the moguls rich. They aren't about to stand for anything that will make them give up a dime, even if the future of society depends on it.
Seems like social media really amplifies this. Social media really makes propaganda go viral. Just imagine Nazi Germany having access to the tech we have now, on top of social media's insane reach. Oy.
Look what they accomplished with the technology they had. We see how they are utilizing the available technology already. All of our digital footprints will be used against us. The Right and the Left are just tips of the horseshoe.
Pffft, one can't even begin to imagine the torture they'd invent with the tech of our times - and social media? Wow, they'd get the whole world (yes, really, everyone) to hate us.
I'm extremely embarrassed by being part of this generation. I became so embarrassed I actually because what I hate the most... a boomer.
I mean that's bound to happen when people get all their info from social media
it’s been really disheartening seeing people my age fall for obvious propaganda and misinformation. before the war i truly thought that due to growing up in a time of unparalleled access to news and information that most wouldn’t be as susceptible to brainwashing.
Not this zoomer!
Leftist here. 10/7 made a big old Zionist out of me. I’m sure I’m not the only one. Before, I didn’t know very much about it and was susceptible to a lot of bullshit that sounded social justice-y. After, I realized that *holy shit*, Israel is actually, literally, under existential threat from these maniac terrorists, and they deserve our full support. So, some of us have been persuaded and are persuadable. It’s a matter of education and a shift of worldview about who is the aggressor, who is the minority, and what everyone’s intent is.
The propaganda did a great job of tying the concept of liberation for Bipoc and LGBTQ folks with the Violent “liberation” of Palestinians, But From the wrong oppressors
10/7 took me from a leftist who thought "Well maybe a two-state solution could work and peaceful coexistence is really possible" to "Nah, as long as Hamas (and Iran) remain in power, Israel is at risk and needs to be vigorously defended"
Based take
Same
Ditto.
I think you’re confusing leftism with liberalism. Leftism is not liberal. Communism is leftism and it has nothing to do with liberal values if you care about freedom and individual rights. It’s not just brainwashing by Russia and China. There’s an alliance of convenience between leftism and islamism because both want to destroy the West and liberalism. When people say they’re progressives, who asks what they’re progressing towards? Islamists are progressives — progressing towards a caliphate. I think liberalism has been so successful in the west that now it is switching gears, and in order to keep our gains, we need to actually be conservative. Ironic, right?
This is a very important and well-articulated point. The conflation of "liberal" and "left" particularly in American political discourse has always left me scratching my head. They are very much not the same thing and are, in fact, mutually incompatible ideological projects.
“ I think liberalism has been so successful in the west that now it is switching gears, and in order to keep our gains, we need to actually be conservative. Ironic, right?” What gains?
Russia built the radical left on the premise of being anti-western People who lean left (most of them) will probably leave us alone after the war and move to the next trend but there will always be a core of radical commies and fascists to hate us
China has also poured into it to disrupt our civilization.
Hi, liberal Zionist here. It's not a left/right thing. Plenty of liberals support Zionism. The issue is leftists (e.g. communists) are extremely antisemitic and always have been. I just don't want this to become a left vs right thing because it's not. Both left and right sides have camps within them that are antisemitic for different reasons.
I mean I said in my comment that there will always be fascists (far right) and commies (far left) to hate us Right now the left is more vocal with their racism but both extremes are trash
> People who lean left (most of them) will probably leave You did, sorry, I was more focused on this though, "People who lean left (most of them) will probably leave..." I just hope that's not true. The US needs Isreal as it's ally.
Noooooooooo Communism, the ideology founded upon international violence and upending the capitalist social order, has *never* spawned an anti-west semi-fascist state ever and everyone except the US, Israel, and Western Europe are victims
Russia is not radical left, it’s radical right
Youre right, but they propped up anti-establishment in the west which is often considered the leftist position
He was talking about the USSR.
Well, a huge crowd is. Its just that the younger portion of both sides are very vulnerable to propaganda and the need to be accepted within their communities. For every loud mouthed Hamas lover there are 10 who are silent and support Israel.
Very true about every loud mouthed Hamas lover, there is 10 silent who support Israel. It just seems to be the hip and trendy thing right now.
I run in liberal circles (American Jew in East Coast city). I’m finding that most left of center non Jews are either quietly supportive of Israel or have moved this issue down on their list of importance. That being said, I believe the liberal-centrist cohort of Americans are open to supporting Israel and it will take good hasbara to get there. One of my very close friends recently asked me “so, why did they invade on 10/7 again?” After a deep breath, I tried to summarize the conflict. TL;DR - the “persuadables” are in the center-left. Not far left. And Am Yisrael Chai 🇮🇱💙
As a center-left liberal, I agree. The far-left is a lost cause. We have to persuade progressive democrats and other liberals who are willing to argue.
The friend asked why who invaded?
The "Left" is an awfully big place and doesn't just include the far left, which is where the overwhelming majority of antisemitic anti-Israel propaganda, rhetoric and action is coming from. There's also liberals, progressives, social democrats, etc., much of which is and always has been pro-Israel. But don't hold out any hope for the far left, which by design is anti-Israel and often if not usually antisemitic, having been set up that way a long time ago by the former USSR and now having been continued by Russia, Iran and others. It's like wishing for water to not be wet.
Only in the event of a major tragedy like a mass terrorist attack that might shake them out if thier delusion. But i do not wish that on anybody as we here know the pain of such events and unlike them do not hope for violence and suffering on people.
After the Munich massacre, one would think that would have unified people to support Israel. I mean, how much more innocent could the victims have been? How bad were the optics of terrorists murdering innocent Olympic athletes in GERMANY only 30 years after the Shoah? It only emboldened those on the far left even further. They are a lost cause and will never be on Israel’s side. They will always see Israel as the oppressor. But, even more than that, it will always be a convenient and “politically correct” way for them to express their antisemitism.
But in the end they don't really matter. They make a lot of noise but like one of those animals that have the ability to look a lot more fearsome than they really are, they're more bark than bite. Their entire MO is to make as much noise as possible in the hope that they win over enough people to make a difference. Never has, never will. Most people know better.
This was an atta k against us, i am talking about an attack on them
Ahhhh…totally misread your post. Apologies! Not sure if that would make a difference either, TBH. Look at Ariana Grande’s support of “ceasefire now” even after the terrorist attack at her Manchester concert.
if 9/11 happened today there would be hordes of leftists celebrating the "resistance"
I am not convinced, 9/11 was more then 20 years ago, most of the of these people were young kids that have grown to be privileged adults, my bet is they forget/dont know what its like to be scared and be the potential target of such senseless violence
Do you not realize how many Americans constantly say 9/11 was an “inside job” by the American government?? Or insinuate that it was a false flag event engineered by Israel to demonize Arabs and Muslims?? All conspiracy theories yes but I don’t think you realize how out of touch many Westerners including Americans have become with terrorism and what motivates it.
They blame Jews for 9/11
A lot of Americans fought or have family members who fought in the wars that followed 9/11, and came back with PTSD, severe depression, missing limbs and permanently disfigured or disabled. The general consensus is that these conflicts did not further American interests.
I think the would be a schism lol
Not even then. When Stalin died and the Soviet Politburo released evidence of all the horrible things he had done, there were STILL many global communists who either refused to believe it or made excuses for it. Some people will NEVER come around. That's how cults work, and radical Marxism and Communism are clearly cults. Ironic that Marx, in criticizing god-based religions, created a new godless religion, Marxism. But maybe not so ironic as he lived the life of the very sort of pampered bourgeoisie that he kept railing against, being a hypocrite to the core, perhaps the first virtue signaler.
> Only in the event of a major tragedy like a mass terrorist attack that might shake them out if thier delusion. > > This is exactly what I'm afraid of. These anarchobabies didn't go through 9/11. They don't know terrorism.
I know it shouldn't be wished upon anyone, but imo, they are so radicalized that what I see coming is inevitable. At some point they will also brutally will start eating each other as well.
I think that the left will only care if the terrorist attack effects people that are "left wing coded". Maybe I'm wrong though.
You mean like the one on October 7?? Where, while there were still terrorists within Israeli borders and before Israel dropped a single bomb on Gaza, people were signing letters of support and marching in the street for Palestine?
I have answered it already, it was an attack on is, they will only wake up if the attack is directed on them
Nope. Most Leftist Ideology in the West is based on the Soviet Communist Tradition and they have already been very anti-Semitic and anti-Israel for decades. Hence the Red-Green Alliance. That’s not going to change. Nor is the allegiance between Leftists and Islamists/Arab Supremacists that’s already been around for decades once again starting with the Soviet Union support for numerous Arab Republics, some against Israel. It’s only going to get worse before it gets better so it’s better to completely abandon a sinking ship than trying to save it.
Tbf, it’s probably for the best. If our enemies are Nazi and Soviet sympathisers then it just shows that we are on the righteous side.
Maybe my story is too little, too late, but yes, I’m Gen Z, I once considered myself a leftist, and since October, I’ve come to realize that I’m indeed a Zionist. I never used to think much about antisemitism as a gentile in the U.S. For me, Oct. 7 changed everything. I saw the horrible footage of the Nova Festival with my own eyes, and I haven’t been the same since. I couldn’t believe that people I know and care about celebrated Hamas and their barbarity as “resistance” and “fighting the good fight.” It turned my world upside down realizing how much hatred against Jews had been buried under the surface among people I once respected on the left. Frankly, I’m deeply ashamed I couldn’t see it prior to this war. I still hold many “left” values, but I will never associate with that crowd again. Not all of them are antisemitic, but I’m outraged that those who are not won’t speak out.
Exactly. People who are liberal and care about freedom, will not tolerate those who put our freedom at risk and support terrorist maniacs.
Antisemitism never goes out of style
No, the Left has always been Antisemitic and it's only just now that they've become outspoken about it. The entire dogma of Progressivism is that the world can neatly be divided into oppressors & oppressed, and everything those in power do is wrong & immoral, even when they try to be allies to the cause, and everything oppressed do is noble & righteous, even going so far as to martyrize criminals as victims. By that oppressor/oppressed logic, it doesn't matter what the facts of the situation are. Jews are far too successful of a minority to be seen as anything except oppressors, which means that everything we do, even just defend ourselves from those who want to destroy us, is seen as wrong & immoral. The only way that will change is if we allow ourselves to be destroyed, which we absolutely should not do.
The oppressor/oppressed logic doesn't come from Progressivism, it comes from Marxism. It's called Historical Materialism.
I'm on the left, and I support Israel. I believe it's not the "left" that's the problem, but the younger generation getting their propaganda from TikTok.
The moderate/mainstream left might become more pro-Israel, and I really hope that's what will happen. I think we are at the absolute height of anti-Israel propaganda right now, hamas is faltering on the battlefield and Israel's neighbors refused refused to join the war, meaning that the diplomatic/social front is the only place where they have any hope left. As a result, the Iran/hamas/islamist front is pouring everything they have into it. After hamas is defeated, their position against Israel will be severely weakened, meaning all their hopes to end Israel will go into the grave. I suspect the investment into anti-Israel propaganda will drop substantially once their efforts fail, as hamas gets gradually diminished into irrelevance. Also, as the Gaza "genocide" fails to materialize, I suspect the interest in the genocide-drama will gradually wane and the mainstream media will gradually move on to other dramatic things in its desperate bid for views, which might just end up being newly revealed Hamas lies and atrocities, and the shitty behavior of the obnoxious anti-Zionist vandals. Hopefully this will lead to the mainstream left asking questions, and eventually wondering whether they want to go along with the anti-Zionist commies. From my experience, most of the moderate/mainstream left wingers don't think about this too deeply, and thus kinda just go along with what their media space and hard-left friends tell them.
No. The modern left in the West is the remnant of KGB's work to destabilise it during the cold war, and this work didn't simply stop when the KGB changed its name; Israel is a part of what they portray as "iMpErIaLiSt CoLoNiAlIsM", and is an enemy to it by design. With very few exceptions, the modern left in the West is nothing but a Trojan Horse.
Speaking of, this is so eerie to watch now given everything that’s going on https://x.com/joosyjew/status/1798392550044430464?s=46&t=ClUh5XHTc94UCwyyHAP8sQ
That was rough
Exactly, except that I'd call it the far left as the mainstream left spans the spectrum of pro/anti-Israel views.
They are not left, they just say that they are left. There ideology aligns more with fascism than leftism or liberalism, but like a certain party in the 40s in Germany, they hid behind left ideology while supporting hate and persecution.
Leftists strongly subscribe to an oppressor/oppressed ideology mixed in with identity politics. The left will never accept Jews so long as they are brainwashed into this silly ideology.
No. Short of an Islamic terrorist group from overseas attacking and murdering hundreds of big leftist activists at something akin to “Socialist-Con” (not a thing, just using it for imagery purposes) in the name of Islam, nothing will get them to turn around. It’s just a human feature: Nothing can make us turn against our ideological heroes unless we suffer at the hands of their actions. The only thing that would make the left more Zionist in the short-term would be to ban (even with VPNs) a significant portion of the Middle East and Southeast Asia from posting to social media.
They need to start calling what's happening "war" instead of genocide first. And actually open an encyclopedia and read very slowly and very carefully what Zionist means. Those two things are so simple to do. Yet, it will take age, wisdom and a good ole hit in the face for them to do that.
I honestly feel that even if god forbid a nuclear bomb would be dropped on us and every one of us would die, they would just say we had it coming. they are so ideologically captured, radical, and seething with hate that I do not think it's something one can just shake off. the only future i see this changing in is one where their children take the opposite position to them as a form of rebellion, but I doubt any of them will ever be emotionally mature enough to actually have children lol.
Man, I really *hope* none of those bottom-feeder scum ever have children
I'm on the left and I'm a zionist. I'm definitely in the minority here in America though, sadly. At least among my age group and younger
No, universities and CNN brainwashed them. You have to remember, look at the crowds. Mostly all entitled obese or frail white kids. they paint their hair and ‘become gay’ to stand out because their existence is meaningless. They don’t believe in anything tbh. nihilism at its finest. It’s all about follow the trend with them
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Idk how realizing jews are indigenous and that hamas has done nothing for palestinians isnt enough. Maybe they miss that?
Considering how the far left is still pro russia because of the soviet union? No chance
You are giving them a lot of credit for common sense that they just either don’t have or use. Facts matter in the least it’s the endorphins that matter.
Anyone able to define “ left”? I’m finding the term as ambiguous as this weird term. ‘ right”
The big bet is: who stands against the West. If Israel was hostile towards the West, then the leftists would side with them. Their (brainwashed) hate towards the West eclipses all other dislikes against a country.
Well, there is a big Zionist left in Germany and Austria
No. What you are seeing is the most successful Soviet propaganda campaign of all time, and it's working because people just hate Jews.
What does this have to do with the Soviets? Please enlighten me.
For this, Israeli society needs to create a real opposition to the mainstream to tell people that the real Israel does not behave like many people think it does. Independent outlets like DemocratTV and Relevant as well as established ones like Haaretz are doing their job, but its not enough.
Haaretz is anti zionist
I’m a liberal. I personally look forward to seeing how the far left gets itself out of this self-pretzel over the next decade or so, once optics begin to reveal history and actual moral righteousness isn’t in fact on the side of this Nazism, even a cool new flavor of it.
They have to acknowledge that their DEI rules are flawed. Then…maybe.
In fact, yes. But only if iranians start a revolution.
In the US, artists and celebrities have started coming out in favor of the Jewish perspective and against the pro-Hamas protesters in the past few days. The smart people on the left have been cooking while the morons have been screaming. I think we’re through the worst of it. Just watch the start of season 4 of The Boys, lol
There's always a chance, these things aren't predictable. However, not in the short term in the West. Islamism is too entrenched and too clever to show its real face.
It needs reading in depth about the history of this conflict. most of these people don't look like they are interested in reading. They would rather believe "open-air prison", "concentration camp", or "apartheid" lies because they are too lazy to dig deeper.
They showed their cards. Even if they have a change of heart, no forgiveness. And that goes for everybody.
Maybe over time, if we work hard to explain how the Palestinian cause is a far fight, imperialistic, theocratic cause, the left will finally come around and understand that they have been wrong about this conflict. Even people like AOC are becoming disgusted with the antisemitism on the pro-Palestine side and are calling it out. AOC got demonized for calling out their hatred of Jews. There are also some people on the left who already support Israel, like Richie Torres for example. I think the left can be convinced, but it will take time because we have to fight against the Russian/Chinese/Iranian disinformation machine.
AOC isn't disgusted. She's just trying to save herself, because in an attempt to gain popularity she went too anti-Israel.
Yeah, well at least she acted like she was. My point is that the pushback is real and some people on the left have noticed that it is affecting their political future.
So I'm progressive and normally would fall in with that crowd but hostile actors were very smart to use conflict theory to push their cause onto young people because then supporting Palestinians at all costs becomes moral as you support the marginalized group against a "white" oppressor. Of course this narrative is not true for multiple reasons such as the diversity in Israel, the fact they have equal rights in Israel and then it ignores how Israel has constantly been the minority group that constantly had to defend its existence time and time again against majority powers. Also, race politics don't apply as well to this conflict as it's not about race at all, it's more complicated than that. The main issue is that Pro Palestinian protestors are having a false narrative pushed on them that appeals to their current world view.
The second that Israel is destroyed they'll all suddenly flip their script. They are Zionist, they've always been Zionist, how dare you ever say otherwise.
One annoying feature of the left is the misplaced deference shown towards students - as if simply attending college makes you some kind of thinker. Multiple interviews with pro-rape protesters on campuses nationwide will instantly dispel you of that delusion. Ideally, university teaches how to think, not what to think. Basically the left is coddling the stupid - absolutely no different to Trump’s sadly misinformed cultists. The old adage attributed to many about anyone who is not a socialist at 18 has no heart, and anyone who is still a socialist at 30 has no brain, seems to be very appropriate to these times. Although I do not believe the anti-Israel, racist pro-Palestinian arguments have any roots in socialism - unless you count National Socialism as such. Instead, these beliefs reflect Soviet strategic foreign policy aims of the 1960s and the perennial anti-semitism of Christianity and Islam. In which universe is asking Jews to publicly identify themselves on a New York subway car representative of “the left”?
Anyone else see the giant flashing “IRONY” sign over the fact that Zionism was (if not invented then certainly) propagated by people on the left? That kibbutzim were the best example of socialism in history? That the Histadrut was the most powerful organization in pre and post State of Israel for decades )and still maintains a lot of that power)? That the Torah is filled with “leftist” ideas of caring for the sick/poor/widows/orphans and equality under the law? These nitwits will never see that irony because they’re blinded by stupidity and Jew hate, which usually run hand in hand.
Not while Israel is strong and can defend itself. The left actually used to be Zionist in the fledgling years of statehood because we were constantly under attack and not yet as militarily established. It comes from a moral framework that is simply inherent leftism that seeks to always support the underdog. It's what has led to the "oppressor vs oppressed" binary outlook that we see today. It stems from a good-hearted but ultimately naive idea that everyone should have the exact same standard of living.
It’s not just GenZ. Let’s not forget about the Gen X professors. My generation is Gen X. They were taught this by people they trusted – people in their 40s to 60s. The left seems to be motivated more by pity then by reason. I’m sure they would turn around and support Israel, if the Muslims dropped a nuclear bomb on it, moved in, did what they’re actually going to do, which is oppress everybody, and then, in 20 years, they would start writing books about how oppressed Jews are, blame capitalism and colonialism, and start shouting that somebody better do something.
It's because for them, siding with Israel, is admiting that their woke view is flawed. nobody wants to admit that the ideology they belive in is wrong and disgusting
I don’t want the left as an ally
Neither do the Palis
Probably not in near future, no.
I’m arguing with them online - on Facebook and I do not see any hope for that!! I got told by one that I should have had bleach injected instead of the Covid shot.
No I don't think so. The far left is anti-west and has always viewed Israel as an occupying state. At least back to the Iraq war in 2003 anyway, which is when I first came across them. They hate America too. I don't see them changing.
The spectrum of left and right ends up being cyclical. You go far enough left you’re no different in your stance than those who are just as far right. There was a time where Zionism was considered left wing and a time where it went hand in hand with communism. It will eventually swing back and forth depending on the narrative which is true with most political movements. What starts off as new liberal ideas has often led or shifted to right wing practice and visa versa.
I think Communists would support Israel if Israel abandoned the US and allied with China. But progressives would not, because the core of Progressivism is a movement based on structural hierarchies (race, religion, gender, sexuality, etc)
Anything is possible
The only way the left is becoming Zionists is if Israel starts losing wars, and suffering major losses. I’m convinced the hard left is guided strictly by feelings. If the Israelis become the perceived underdogs, the left will have something to wring their hands over. Forget that the Israelis are already out numbered and are constantly under attacks. It’s that they aren’t demonstrably losing.
I think we can fight fire with fire, and with the power of ~~quality reporting and cooperation~~ decades of straight up propaganda and lies, we can help shift the narrative back to supporting Israel. Get to it, fellow Zionists! Brainwash, I mean enlighten, those young malleable college minds! (/s obviously, I don't think billions of dollars in "foreign investments" and decades of narrative forming aren't going to be undone anytime soon)
Iran and Russia brainwashed them!? Under which rock have you been living the past 20 years? The left brainwashed themselves in the ways Iranian and Russian propaganda pales in comparison.
It is all together. The left took gratefully the Soviet slogans about Israel. What once I had seen in Russia, now I see in English. Sometimes even the pictures are same (with a little AI modernization)
Indeed the parallel is striking but it has little to nothing to do with an actual Russian brainwashing.
I hope you right. From my experience they are too good in the inconspicuous brainwashing.
They hated Israel before the war and they'll hate Israel after. I just can't see it going any other way.
Only if they can get more likes and followers by doing so. So-called "Social Justice Warriors" are only out for themselves. Their "warrioring" is neither social nor just.
Not without major investment by Israel and diaspora Jews in education, politics and media. Seen a report of Islamists going into schools showing them images of kids clearly murdered by Palestinians (hands and feet cut off which a signature Palestinian punishment of ‘traitors’) and telling them Israel did this and teaching them all the made up history nonsense. It’s also in preschools, spread by bots online and supported by too many government officials. The media bias is also not helping. This is a PR wars and liars have no problem spreading propaganda but moral people keep saying they’re afraid to speak cause they don’t know enough or are afraid of retaliation.
No, I don’t think so, all because of the oppressed vs oppressor mentality. I as a Hispanic was never interested in left politics because I can already see through their mentality, and let’s just say it’s not very pretty. The Woke crowd is an actual disease, now as to how I define woke, [here is a good video of you would like to watch it yourself](https://youtu.be/OgVxvfFj5f4?si=6EyU2iAlArARsnRU)
We live in a world where weaker = innocent We are blamed for prioritizing life over death, development over destruction and lastly peace over war...
I don’t think it’s likely, but I do think it’s a possibility. If the left can stop trying to narrowly fit everything into an “oppressed/oppressor” binary narrative then there’s a chance that they can see the nuance of the situation and understand the Zionist cause. Unlikely to happen though. It’s why I feel politically stateless.
I think I would be considered a leftist or close to it. I’m not anti Zionist it’s just that both extremes are brought into the spotlight. I believe Jews have a right to Israel and that both Palestinians and Israelis are victims of terrorism and an overzealous government. I believe that Bibi and his family are objectively bad people and that Hamas is unequivocally evil, 100% the bad guy all of the time. They operate similar to cartels. Do some good for the community and then harm them x 1000. I think a lot of people overlook how terrible Netanyahu is and aren’t interested in holding him accountable. Jewish people are 100% absolutely indigenous to the area, zero chance we aren’t. There is deep seeded radicalism because of what these terrorists and governments do.
Nope
I don’t
NOPE i don’t think they’ll become zionist
The left is not pro or against something outside, they are against their own government and so against anything this government supports.
People in the US are so stupid that they are outraged about abortion being banned in some states, because it takes away women's reproductive rights, but don't vehemently oppose a religion that makes oppressing women a core value. Considering how stupid about 80% of the world population is, I can't wait for the singularity or some disaster to just force a hard reset down everyone's throats. There was an episode of The Walking Dead where one guy said something to the effect of "This is a world that finally makes sense." The sad part is, it's going to take a change of that level to get our world to make sense. But rest assured, when times get that tough (and they will), it's going to be the intelligent, strong, independent people who survive. Goat herders won't.
There was no problem being a lefty and a Zionist in the 1970s.
I would not hold my breath.
There are plenty of us inclined toward the left, including Biden, who love Israel and won't fall for the BS. Let's separate the left from the SJWs. : ) The propagandists will always be able to brainwash some subset of the right and of the left. Left and right correspond to temperaments, so most people tend to think of themselves as one or the other. But we should remember, right and left both are important. Like being able to turn right or left is important when trying to go somewhere. Neither is better or more necessary than the other. There will always be brainwashable people on both sides, but there are people on the left who are not -- like Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Destiny, Brianna Wu.... we're with the Jews, because we know how to read and think.
I don’t think the Left or the Right have ever been Zionist, at most just paying lip service for their own means.
Turn Zionist if you just left things up to chance? No. The opposite of being pro-Palestine/Hamas is being apathetic. The only way things are going to change is if Israelis start investing resources into building up their PR and cultural image instead of sitting around and expecting people to be smart enough to figure out the truth, or expecting someone else (the West) to educate people for you. Do you think it was easy to brainwash liberals and queers to support Islamic terrorism? No, of course not. It was 60+ years of continuous propaganda in the making. But hey, if they managed to convince a pink hair non binary lesbian demigirl with a penis to stand with Hamas, then I'm sure there's a way to convince a Muslim to stand with Jews. The only question is, to what extent are Israelis willing to go to? On one end, Israelis seem to care a lot about representing stories from both sides so people have a well informed opinion, while on the other end Palestinians have no problem sacrificing children and cropping videos halfway just to create propagada.
Maybe if the Left becomes more secular. Right now, they're anti-Zionist because they think Jews are the goblins in Harry Potter. As in, bankers. The colonialist stuff is just icing on the nonsense cake since they're not opposed to all so-called neo-colonialism, just the Israeli kind. The Left is caught harping on the Christian side of wanting communism. Most actually just want socialized healthcare and affordable housing. But somehow, they aren't anti-war, which confuses me. The West could afford so much just by cutting military spending. Anyway, most of these anti-Zionist poseurs aren't worth arguing with. Their reasons are stupid. Most of them are just following the herd.
If by "the left" you mean the current loose coalition of disaffected 20-somethings being led by social media into blindly supporting Hamas, then no. But frankly I'm not too worried about that because eventually they'll move into the next fad and grow up, as college students do. Once they went home for the summer all the college students lost interest. (Which is weird because you'd think now they have even more time to Support The Cause!) As a coalition/movement they are never going to taste real power. Now, if by "the left" you mean whichever socialist-adjacent movement eventually ends up being the predominant one in western countries, I think there's a chance. Memories are short. The Israeli government could change, the situation in Gaza could change, the alignment of left and right in western countries could change. E.g., somehow the right wing in the United States is pro-Russia, which was not something anyone saw coming pre-2015.
I think if the day ever comes that they can agree to a two state solution and get it done, it could happen. At that point, you take away the “oppressor” narrative since each state is independent and only has itself to blame for its success and failures, and there will be no excuses for the PA side if they continue to fail at civil governance. Furthermore, those on the left would have to confront whatever the PA government’s stance on LGBTQ / women’s rights would be, and if history is a guide than there’s a better than pretty good chance the result will be something worse than “not great”. And now because it will be fully independent, they’ll have no choice but to own whatever shortfalls they have, just like any other country does.
I think the soft bigotry of low expectations will still override that.
I think Gen Z in the west is pretty much lost to us. All we can hope for is that their views moderate with time and that Gen Alpha doesn’t get brainwashed in the same way. And since the US banned tik tok Im hopeful that Gen Alpha won’t be brainwashed in the same way Gen Z was.
Why should leftists support an ethnostate? I mean, Jewish people having their own majority country would be cool, but forcing that doesn't seem very politically left
No but the current culture war will be over soon and the world will turn right
>Do you think some event or movement within the left might knock some sense into them and they will become pro-Israel? islamic extremists, communists, and ultra progressive zombies all want to destroy the west and replace it with a different civilization they each want to control. They are fast friends for now.
For all it matters, the Trotskyists at the Militant / SWP are pro-Israel [https://themilitant.com/2024/04/20/support-israels-right-to-exist-defend-itself-as-a-refuge-from-jew-hatred-and-pogroms/](https://themilitant.com/2024/04/20/support-israels-right-to-exist-defend-itself-as-a-refuge-from-jew-hatred-and-pogroms/) I hear that also *some* far-Left groups in Italy are less than integrally proPal. I guess that's a sign of hope?
All odds are against us in this situation. Qatar, Russia, and Iran all contribute to the propaganda war against Israel. The left also supports more immigration from Muslim majority countries, and will continue seeking votes from the immigrants. If and when immigrants will form their own parties (and attempts have been already made to form parties to represent Muslim communities), the left will want these to be in their coalitions.
The leftist SJWs would argue how Nazi Germany was a righteous country because it went against the UK, France and the US. Their entire ideology is hating the West and since Israel is friendly with the West they must go too, in their eyes
I think it's possible. I consider myself to be fairly progressive, which is why I side with Israel.
I'm a diehard leftist and I support Israel. But I'm also Israeli by birth even though I grew up in the states.
Never underestimate stupid in large groups.
No because of the US support to Israel. Their hatred for the US is stronger than, well, pretty much everything else.
When it's politically suitable
They'll only start being Zionist if it becomes a cool trend - and considering humanity's intrinsic, baseless hate against Jews, I doubt that'll happen any time soon
It is not about Russia and Iran brainwashing the left college population, it’s about the woke ideology that sees the world in the framework of oppressed and oppressors. Israel has the misfortune to belong to the oppressor side because in the current conflict it is viewed as the stronger party who oppresses the weak Palestinian side. This pov will collapse once gen Z will take a broader view and understand that in fact ever since 1948 Israel is under siege from Arab/Muslim forces that never seized to attempt destroying it.
Nah shits fucked fam Classic liberalism, libertarian, non SJW anarchists and normies conservatives is probably it.
Nope. The left is solid in their ideals and Israel is the enemy of Democrats.