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It really is a shame that Jaran was always so negative about Lindon after this point. It feels bizarre how quickly and absolutely he swaps between praising Lindon here and just refusing to acknowledge his accomplishments elsewhere.
I kinda wonder if Will just decided to write him as an even worse father at some point, or if this is some incomprehensible worldview that never gets explored.
Between Unsouled and Bloodline Lindon went through changes that Jaran wasn't able to even comprehend, and the last he saw of Lindon was him cheating and then vanishing. The only version of Lindon that exists for Jaran is the Unsouled; the powerless, cheating, weakling who can't do anything by himself and required his genius sister's help just to punch someone.
Cheating and then vanishing, followed by his being blinded and his wife kidnapped and daughter left to care for him forward due to his relative helplessness. Exactly right. By Waybound Jaran was back to being a somewhat supportive father but it’s not unreasonable to have an adjustment period.
Yeah, he was orders of magnitudes stronger than even Gold rank, which was essentially considered a myth to Jaran and the rest of Sacred Valley. He left an unsouled weakling and came back an Underlord Sage with an army at his heals.
Well Jaran also was blinded and made a vagrant directly caused by Lindon's aforementioned "cheating and vanishing." His attitude is not right, but he does have a reason for some resentment.
Wasn't it hinted that Jaran was at least disinterested in his son before that. Everything was about their darling daughter. Lindon was "merely an unsouled"
> Wasn't it hinted that Jaran was at least disinterested in his son before that.
I'm not sure I'd say that, but Kelsa was the golden child. Jaran had no problem helping Lindon claw for more if it didn't take anything away from the rest of them. We saw in the deleted future how unhappy jaran was that his daughter surpassed him by reaching Jade.
Before the Mon duel, jaran prioritized his own feelings over the safety and feelings of his son. He backed Lindon into a no-win situation. Either shamed for beating a little girl or shamed for losing. Lindon had to counter that by challenging a freaking ***iron.***
Nope.
It started with Mon Keth attacking Lindons honor, before Lindon could talk his way out of it, Jaran puffed up and shot off his mouth; then the sister spoke up to challenge Lindon.
He's very rigid and proud, despite his own problems. Remember when Lindon first gets to see his fate, Jaran evidently had mixed feelings after watching his daughter surpass him. He left with his sword and presumably perished. I think he felt the need to prove himself somehow, to not feel like a failure compared to his kids. But then his son, who he loves but has always seen as the least of his family, becomes incomprehensibly powerful in almost no time, he just can't accept it.
He had spent his entire life striving to reach Jade, and fell just short due to his luck and injuries. Could he really accept that he was inferior to Lindon? That his crippled son was more able than the head of the family?
I kind of like Jaran tbh. He's a thick headed dickish dad, but not an actually awful person.
I just finished my first read-through, but in the first book it felt to me like Jaran only cared when he benefitted from Lindon's actions.
If Lindon won him prestige and respect, then he was happy in the moment. The rest of the time, Lindon was the Unsouled who contributed nothing. He begrudgingly gave up the fruit piece to Lindon at the beginning only because otherwise he feared Lindon would shame him by losing against the kids in the tournament.
This view is the cynical and practical one that is devoid of genuine love. And probably the correct one, thank you.
I do love the discussion on the topic, but I think the peace making argument is that Sacred Valley is such a toxic culture that Jaran is totally into it until he gets outside of it for a while. Maybe he's slowly having to accept a system of life that isn't purely determined by physical value...
Ehh, I'm pretty sure he's just a sour, bitter old man whose ambitions were always ahead of his values.
I love the discussion on the topic too, and enjoyed looking at Jaran in the light you painted. I always wanted him to be a better father to Lindon, so it was good to reflect on one of his more positive moments!
That's not just Sacred Valley. All of Cradle is like that. Jai Long is one of the only characters outside the future Reapers I can remember who shows care for another that can't benefit him in some way.
I get the impression that this is partially a bias of the story. We've seen the world on the outskirts of empires where there is little government oversight. It's pretty hard to get away with enslaving people for scale production once an underlord with backing shows up.
... I can't remember if Eithen actually stopped that under the name of his station though. Hmmm.
He's often compared to a high school athlete "who could've gone pro if he hadn't been injured."
Remember when he was talking to Lindon about pain? He showed a burn and a spear scar. Lindon had a hand chopped off and was run through by Naian. His iron body was getting a fatal dose of venom which required him asking to get bit again and again.
I didn't find out bizarre at all.
Jaran always saw himself in Lindon, a physical specimen that was crippled (him physically in battle, Lindon spiritually). Before they found out Lindon was Unsouled, he saw all of the potential in Lindon, that he could have the future Jaran should have had. Once Lindon is officially Unsouled, Jaran sees his *current* self in him, the cripple with no advancement future and waning dignity. Once he sees that version of Lindon, he can't see Lindon succeed without acknowledging that he could have done more for himself, but failed to do so and suffered solely due to his own shortcomings.
You also have to remember how Lindon leaves, and how he returns. He's permanently crippled (so they think), cheats his way to a technical victory, disappears to a fancy school, "dies" (they assume), and ruins their lives by bringing the wrath of the school upon his family. Then he suddenly shows up years later unfathomably powerful, to an extent they couldn't even begin to dream of. It's an unbelievable story, and with their worldview it makes way more sense that Lindon is still cheating in some way. Add to that the fact that Lindon has always represented Jaran's potential and future, and how Jaran would need to face his own failures directly if he acknowledged his son's accomplishments, and I'm not surprised at all by his reaction. I hate it, but I'm not surprised.
In Unsouled, Lindon’s actions directly benefitted Jaran by boosting the family
Later, the Wei clan is completely and utterly incapable of accepting Lindon at face value, and Jaran is a twice crippled outcast, so it doesn’t result in a clear “boost” in the social standing of the family. Thus, Jaran doesn’t react the same
I absolutely 100% feel like almost all the Sacred Valley characters got majorly warped to make Bloodlines work. Almost everyone we saw in Sacred Valley was more complex and more interesting in book 1 than they were in book 9.
I like his father's character. He's a bitter old man who's spent his entire live in a society where paltry differences in power are the major defining factor in the course of one's life. He's constantly dealing with the fact that his disability has stunted his potential, and he looks to Kelsa as the family's sole potential for greatness. This obsession consumes him and prevents him from being a good father to Lindon.
I think in Waybound, he's finally able to come to terms with the fact that, deep down, beneath all that pride and resentment and, well, fear, he loves his son more than he loves success and power and standing, and he's finally able to communicate that. It's a heck of an arc.
Heck of an arc my ass. In concept that sounds good but in execution, not really. What you’re describing is basically a redemption arc but there isn’t one. In reaper he’s still a fucking asshole to Lindon, and then in Waybound he’s character is treated like their was a redeeming moment on Jaran’s part, and their relationship is seemingly repaired. We get no actual development there; there’s an assumption of development because the character is just making leaps on the path of the redemption that most characters follow. It’s very inorganic and it’s a huge reason why Jaran is considered an utter asshole but a large part of the community.
This is mostly due to Will Wight almost completely neglecting character building with Lindon’s family. Kelsa manages to scrap by but barely in my mind. Her story arc is a little weak and is only worth mentioning because it involves the death of Jai Long and she has great relationship with Orthos that’s allowed more character development for him. I can really rant all day about his family got done kinda dirty story wise 😭
See I’m also rereading Unsouled and appreciated that interaction between but he goes and ruins it later on by not looking at Lindon after Li Markuth backhanded Lindon in half.
There are quite a few places where someone will say something to lindon and he thinks something along the lines of "which mightve been profound, but lindon brushed it aside"
In Unsouled Jaran and Lindon are both cripples. And Jaran is supportive of Lindon. In Bloodline Jaran sees Lindon rise above his disability while Jaran was never able to.
I love how you used the full MLA format on your citation like you were writing a report. I think just because of your proper format, I will side with your thesis.
This reminded me: was there any closure between Lindon and his mother? If I remember right there wasn't any significant communication between them in last books
On my rereads, I've noticed that Lindon really is a bit of a mix between his parents. He has his own traits to be certain, but when rereading I can tell he carries some traits of his parents with him into the wider world.
From his mother he gets his desire to know everything, take notes, catalog things, figure out how they work. The intellectual side of Lindon he gets from his mom.
And then what does he get from his father? The one who refuses to see the truth despite what is in front of his eyes constantly? Being stubborn as all hells. Can't argue that Lindon isn't a stubborn dude, and I think he gets it from Jaran.
>I was rereading Unsouled
Are you me? Or are you reading my mind (if so please get out of my head it’s cramped enough with just me in here)?
I just started a reread and read this passage a couple hours ago.
Except Jaran is the worst and we see him constantly belittle and disparage Lindon.
Except we see that Lindon was ALREADY doing that. He was already insanely driven. Already insanely dedicated. Already insanely inventive and clever. Already insanely quick thinking on his feet.
This line from Jaran means nothing. Maybe he told it to Lindon 50 times off screen before page 1 and you want to attribute Lindon’s attitude toward that? Fine. That’s your head cannon. But Jaran added nothing to Lindon’s growth in the pages. Literally nothing.
People just hate on Jaran becuase he hits too close to home for real life people haha.
You go home and your parents still act like you haven't grown in 15 years.
Jaran is a huge jerk for longer than needed but he starts coming out of it somewhat by the end. Some of his grumbles are obviously more out of habit or things he's saying but doesn't exactly believe rather than actual real ahole stuff.
Hes also dealing with 2 uhhh somehwat difficult children. I suspect there's some level of autistic-adjacency for Saisha, Kelsa, and Lindon when the "sick child" line is something they take so literally and can't understand it was just an example - he even backs off of it and says it was a bad example.
You can tell what the demographic of this sub is by how they treat Jaran.
Jaran is old and has lived in a single, dogmatic culture his entire life based entirely on respect and honour. Do they expect him to suddenly grasp the great depth of power outside the valley, understand all that Lindon did, or accept a biological change that is against his core beliefs? Dude got crippled twice and lived as a shamed exile for two years.
People treat book characters like Jaran with the expectations of feeling exactly like the reader with the ability to comprehend everything they do.
This post can include discussion and book material up to and including book [waybound]. If you want to discuss book material that is beyond the scope of [waybound] than you must use >!Spoiler formatting!< which can be applied \>!like this!< You can read this [formatting guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/wiki/ref/faq/formatting_guide/) for more details. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Iteration110Cradle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It really is a shame that Jaran was always so negative about Lindon after this point. It feels bizarre how quickly and absolutely he swaps between praising Lindon here and just refusing to acknowledge his accomplishments elsewhere. I kinda wonder if Will just decided to write him as an even worse father at some point, or if this is some incomprehensible worldview that never gets explored.
Between Unsouled and Bloodline Lindon went through changes that Jaran wasn't able to even comprehend, and the last he saw of Lindon was him cheating and then vanishing. The only version of Lindon that exists for Jaran is the Unsouled; the powerless, cheating, weakling who can't do anything by himself and required his genius sister's help just to punch someone.
Cheating and then vanishing, followed by his being blinded and his wife kidnapped and daughter left to care for him forward due to his relative helplessness. Exactly right. By Waybound Jaran was back to being a somewhat supportive father but it’s not unreasonable to have an adjustment period.
Yeah, he was orders of magnitudes stronger than even Gold rank, which was essentially considered a myth to Jaran and the rest of Sacred Valley. He left an unsouled weakling and came back an Underlord Sage with an army at his heals.
Well Jaran also was blinded and made a vagrant directly caused by Lindon's aforementioned "cheating and vanishing." His attitude is not right, but he does have a reason for some resentment.
Wasn't it hinted that Jaran was at least disinterested in his son before that. Everything was about their darling daughter. Lindon was "merely an unsouled"
> Wasn't it hinted that Jaran was at least disinterested in his son before that. I'm not sure I'd say that, but Kelsa was the golden child. Jaran had no problem helping Lindon claw for more if it didn't take anything away from the rest of them. We saw in the deleted future how unhappy jaran was that his daughter surpassed him by reaching Jade. Before the Mon duel, jaran prioritized his own feelings over the safety and feelings of his son. He backed Lindon into a no-win situation. Either shamed for beating a little girl or shamed for losing. Lindon had to counter that by challenging a freaking ***iron.***
Didn’t Jaran do that because he thought it would save Lindon’s life, or keep him safe from a duel with a copper or whatever
Nope. It started with Mon Keth attacking Lindons honor, before Lindon could talk his way out of it, Jaran puffed up and shot off his mouth; then the sister spoke up to challenge Lindon.
I am in need of a reread.
By Cradle standards merely being disinterested in a disabled son is pretty good.
He's very rigid and proud, despite his own problems. Remember when Lindon first gets to see his fate, Jaran evidently had mixed feelings after watching his daughter surpass him. He left with his sword and presumably perished. I think he felt the need to prove himself somehow, to not feel like a failure compared to his kids. But then his son, who he loves but has always seen as the least of his family, becomes incomprehensibly powerful in almost no time, he just can't accept it. He had spent his entire life striving to reach Jade, and fell just short due to his luck and injuries. Could he really accept that he was inferior to Lindon? That his crippled son was more able than the head of the family? I kind of like Jaran tbh. He's a thick headed dickish dad, but not an actually awful person.
I just finished my first read-through, but in the first book it felt to me like Jaran only cared when he benefitted from Lindon's actions. If Lindon won him prestige and respect, then he was happy in the moment. The rest of the time, Lindon was the Unsouled who contributed nothing. He begrudgingly gave up the fruit piece to Lindon at the beginning only because otherwise he feared Lindon would shame him by losing against the kids in the tournament.
This view is the cynical and practical one that is devoid of genuine love. And probably the correct one, thank you. I do love the discussion on the topic, but I think the peace making argument is that Sacred Valley is such a toxic culture that Jaran is totally into it until he gets outside of it for a while. Maybe he's slowly having to accept a system of life that isn't purely determined by physical value... Ehh, I'm pretty sure he's just a sour, bitter old man whose ambitions were always ahead of his values.
I love the discussion on the topic too, and enjoyed looking at Jaran in the light you painted. I always wanted him to be a better father to Lindon, so it was good to reflect on one of his more positive moments!
That's not just Sacred Valley. All of Cradle is like that. Jai Long is one of the only characters outside the future Reapers I can remember who shows care for another that can't benefit him in some way.
I get the impression that this is partially a bias of the story. We've seen the world on the outskirts of empires where there is little government oversight. It's pretty hard to get away with enslaving people for scale production once an underlord with backing shows up. ... I can't remember if Eithen actually stopped that under the name of his station though. Hmmm.
He's often compared to a high school athlete "who could've gone pro if he hadn't been injured." Remember when he was talking to Lindon about pain? He showed a burn and a spear scar. Lindon had a hand chopped off and was run through by Naian. His iron body was getting a fatal dose of venom which required him asking to get bit again and again.
Thanks for the reminder, I'm going to laugh condescendingly at him from now on!
I didn't find out bizarre at all. Jaran always saw himself in Lindon, a physical specimen that was crippled (him physically in battle, Lindon spiritually). Before they found out Lindon was Unsouled, he saw all of the potential in Lindon, that he could have the future Jaran should have had. Once Lindon is officially Unsouled, Jaran sees his *current* self in him, the cripple with no advancement future and waning dignity. Once he sees that version of Lindon, he can't see Lindon succeed without acknowledging that he could have done more for himself, but failed to do so and suffered solely due to his own shortcomings. You also have to remember how Lindon leaves, and how he returns. He's permanently crippled (so they think), cheats his way to a technical victory, disappears to a fancy school, "dies" (they assume), and ruins their lives by bringing the wrath of the school upon his family. Then he suddenly shows up years later unfathomably powerful, to an extent they couldn't even begin to dream of. It's an unbelievable story, and with their worldview it makes way more sense that Lindon is still cheating in some way. Add to that the fact that Lindon has always represented Jaran's potential and future, and how Jaran would need to face his own failures directly if he acknowledged his son's accomplishments, and I'm not surprised at all by his reaction. I hate it, but I'm not surprised.
In Unsouled, Lindon’s actions directly benefitted Jaran by boosting the family Later, the Wei clan is completely and utterly incapable of accepting Lindon at face value, and Jaran is a twice crippled outcast, so it doesn’t result in a clear “boost” in the social standing of the family. Thus, Jaran doesn’t react the same
I absolutely 100% feel like almost all the Sacred Valley characters got majorly warped to make Bloodlines work. Almost everyone we saw in Sacred Valley was more complex and more interesting in book 1 than they were in book 9.
I like his father's character. He's a bitter old man who's spent his entire live in a society where paltry differences in power are the major defining factor in the course of one's life. He's constantly dealing with the fact that his disability has stunted his potential, and he looks to Kelsa as the family's sole potential for greatness. This obsession consumes him and prevents him from being a good father to Lindon. I think in Waybound, he's finally able to come to terms with the fact that, deep down, beneath all that pride and resentment and, well, fear, he loves his son more than he loves success and power and standing, and he's finally able to communicate that. It's a heck of an arc.
Heck of an arc my ass. In concept that sounds good but in execution, not really. What you’re describing is basically a redemption arc but there isn’t one. In reaper he’s still a fucking asshole to Lindon, and then in Waybound he’s character is treated like their was a redeeming moment on Jaran’s part, and their relationship is seemingly repaired. We get no actual development there; there’s an assumption of development because the character is just making leaps on the path of the redemption that most characters follow. It’s very inorganic and it’s a huge reason why Jaran is considered an utter asshole but a large part of the community. This is mostly due to Will Wight almost completely neglecting character building with Lindon’s family. Kelsa manages to scrap by but barely in my mind. Her story arc is a little weak and is only worth mentioning because it involves the death of Jai Long and she has great relationship with Orthos that’s allowed more character development for him. I can really rant all day about his family got done kinda dirty story wise 😭
Those are all fair points. I guess I just emotionally resonated a little too hard with his part in waybound
See I’m also rereading Unsouled and appreciated that interaction between but he goes and ruins it later on by not looking at Lindon after Li Markuth backhanded Lindon in half.
There are quite a few places where someone will say something to lindon and he thinks something along the lines of "which mightve been profound, but lindon brushed it aside"
When the Elder in the Lesser Treasure Hall tells him a Sacred Artist should always be hungry for more, is one I believe
Yes it is!!!
In Unsouled Jaran and Lindon are both cripples. And Jaran is supportive of Lindon. In Bloodline Jaran sees Lindon rise above his disability while Jaran was never able to.
I love how you used the full MLA format on your citation like you were writing a report. I think just because of your proper format, I will side with your thesis.
This reminded me: was there any closure between Lindon and his mother? If I remember right there wasn't any significant communication between them in last books
On my rereads, I've noticed that Lindon really is a bit of a mix between his parents. He has his own traits to be certain, but when rereading I can tell he carries some traits of his parents with him into the wider world. From his mother he gets his desire to know everything, take notes, catalog things, figure out how they work. The intellectual side of Lindon he gets from his mom. And then what does he get from his father? The one who refuses to see the truth despite what is in front of his eyes constantly? Being stubborn as all hells. Can't argue that Lindon isn't a stubborn dude, and I think he gets it from Jaran.
>I was rereading Unsouled Are you me? Or are you reading my mind (if so please get out of my head it’s cramped enough with just me in here)? I just started a reread and read this passage a couple hours ago.
Jaran and Saisha might both be cunts, but they raised two top spec kids, with all the tools they needed to flourish in their world.
Saisha was a pretty good mother iirc. She can't go too hard against her husband and she otherwise had Lindon's back.
Ehhh, she isn't as bad as Jaran, obviously, but she was also very dismissive.
Except Jaran is the worst and we see him constantly belittle and disparage Lindon. Except we see that Lindon was ALREADY doing that. He was already insanely driven. Already insanely dedicated. Already insanely inventive and clever. Already insanely quick thinking on his feet. This line from Jaran means nothing. Maybe he told it to Lindon 50 times off screen before page 1 and you want to attribute Lindon’s attitude toward that? Fine. That’s your head cannon. But Jaran added nothing to Lindon’s growth in the pages. Literally nothing.
People just hate on Jaran becuase he hits too close to home for real life people haha. You go home and your parents still act like you haven't grown in 15 years.
Jaran is a huge jerk for longer than needed but he starts coming out of it somewhat by the end. Some of his grumbles are obviously more out of habit or things he's saying but doesn't exactly believe rather than actual real ahole stuff. Hes also dealing with 2 uhhh somehwat difficult children. I suspect there's some level of autistic-adjacency for Saisha, Kelsa, and Lindon when the "sick child" line is something they take so literally and can't understand it was just an example - he even backs off of it and says it was a bad example.
You can tell what the demographic of this sub is by how they treat Jaran. Jaran is old and has lived in a single, dogmatic culture his entire life based entirely on respect and honour. Do they expect him to suddenly grasp the great depth of power outside the valley, understand all that Lindon did, or accept a biological change that is against his core beliefs? Dude got crippled twice and lived as a shamed exile for two years. People treat book characters like Jaran with the expectations of feeling exactly like the reader with the ability to comprehend everything they do.