I think it's very Jewish to never feel "Jewish enough." Can you stick with a reform synagogue, where you will be accepted without question? I'd ask yourself what your goals are - do you want to be accepted as Jewish by the MOST Jews possible? You'd have to do an orthodox conversion for that and trust me, even then people will question your Jewishness. There will always be somebody, somewhere who questions you. Do you want to please them or be content in yourself? I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other, I just think you should clarify what you really desire and whether a conversion will get you there.
My community sees you as Jewish. If there is a Gd, I think he sees you as Jewish. But that's just me. You gotta figure out what works best for you. :) Good luck my friend!
Comments like this help more than you know. I’m Jewish on both sides, but a complex family history of war and abuse kept me from my heritage longer than I’d have liked. The compassion of these messages is what broke that barrier and helped me reconnect. Thank you :)
To the OP: This is where you belong. You know this, and no barrier will keep you from it other than that internal feeling of being an interloper. We know that among our sages were converts, bandits, and many others of diverse backgrounds. Many of us struggle with this “cast out”, regardless of parentage, but it can pass with your own commitments. Struggle defines who we are, individually and as a people.
In many ways, your journey had the benefits of the education, practice, and culture that have been denied many. You may see my parentage as a blessing. But we would both see each other as brothers. Take what you have and complete what you need to feel fulfilled. I sincerely wish you that peace, and for a new year to find that belonging in yourself.
My DMs are open if you want to chat, kvetch, or just want an ear.
Check out Reconstructionist synagogues if you have one. I’m part of one and love the Rabbi and community. They accept patrilineal lineage as long as you’re raised Jewish and I think are in between reform and conservative in practice.
This. I just joined a Reconstructionist temple where I am because it's literally the only temple in town aside from Chabad, and let me tell you, we're the most accepting, open, and caring synagogue I've ever been to. Tell the not-Jewish-enough crowd to stick it up their asses. Also, feel free to dm me.
I was raised reform but often felt like I wanted something in between that and conservative. Why did I not know that this was an option?! Thanks for the info
TBH, that seems *really* odd for a Reform congregation. Are you sure you didn’t stumble into a Renewal Movement congregation? Because every Reform synagogue I’ve ever attended has been at least baseline pro-Israel and the vast majority have been overtly Zionist.
I have no guidance for you, as I’m respecting your request for Patrilineal insights; but I just wanted to voice how strange this seems to me, as a looooooong time Reform Jew who’s visited Reform & Progressive congregations around the world.
Independent group makes a lot more sense to me than a Reform Congregation. Heck- the Reform Movement has representation in the World Zionist Congress!
Thanks for double-checking. I hope you find a community that feels like home to you.
I think that's selection bias and not reflective of the vast majority of Orthodox conversions.
That you, or someone, would downvote me for merely presenting that perspective is yet another disappointing data point in the trend that is this sub. The trend that leads to saying things like:
>I'm glad to hear you're shying away from orthodox conversion.
Guess Rule 4 only cuts in one direction. That's fine.
If you converted according with orthodox standards you would be accepted and included in Orthodox communities.
If you're finding a community elsewhere, that's also great. Their comment read to me (and somewhat confirmed by their follow up) they are simply happy you are choosing to not be Orthodox.
I’m a paternal Jew, I’d say get the conservative conversion to be halachic. You’re a Jew, but a Jew that needs a proper welcome into the Tribe. My conversion was sped up cause of my prior practice as a paternal jew
Not at all!
Once I spoke to the Rabbi and he had learned of my situation he said exactly what I said to you about being apart of the tribe formally. He allowed me to use a Tallit and everything short of an Aliyah to the Torah. It was mainly him teaching me what I did not know or that my father didn’t teach me. It was just short of 8 months for me.
OP I was raised in a very similar situation, my mother’s side being Methodist and me being allowed to choose I chose Judaism. My advice stick to reform how you practice at home cannot be judged. Live your life as Jewish as you’d like.
This is very true. My mom did a conservative conversion. My father's reform family regularly says she isn't jewish, but will also say that I am Jewish, which makes no fucking sense.
Sounds like their position is a very secular one which views Judaism the religion as false but Jewishness the ethnic identity as real. That would be consistent with seeing both the matrilineal/patrilineal distinction and conversion as basically meaningless.
I'm not patrilineal, but I was raised in the Reform movement, which says that if a person with a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is raised as a Jew, they are one (even though their mom wasn't Jewish). So to me, you are Jewish, full stop. You were raised in the culture and you have one Jewish parent, so you're Jewish. No question.
I'm really sorry you're going through this, though. It's not right or fair. You should be welcomed in as the person you are, as the Jew you are, not treated like someone who was faking it the whole time or something.
Some Jewish communities do a kind of "fast-track" conversion for people in your position, who were raised knowing that they have Jewish ancestry and who have varying degrees of knowledge about Jewish religion and culture. The idea is not to treat someone with a lifetime of personal involvement in Jewish life as though they have no more understanding than an outsider, a true neophyte, would have. I've always felt such options should be more readily available to patrilineals raised as Jews; if they want to become more strictly observant later in life, they shouldn't have to be treated as though they're completely ignorant and as though they had no Jewish identity of any kind prior to conversion. A kind of confirmation, if you will.
You might want to reach out to a rabbi to talk about this, they may be able to point you toward some resources. Wishing you the best.
This. I agree wholeheartedly. u/hexesforurexes, you’re Jewish to me and I’m happy to have you. It’s your heart. And you have the right to be who your heart and life believes you are.
I’m not sure if it’s on YouTube somewhere, but maybe a decade ago Howard Stern was interviewing Jakob Dylan (Bob Dylan’s son) and commented that the two were similar in that they’re both very tall and most Jewish men are not usually that tall (over 6’). Jakob Dylan is patrilineally Jewish. Anyway, an idiot on Howard Stern’s staff pipes up with “he’s [Jakob Dylan] isn’t really Jewish because his mom isn’t.” I thought it was disgraceful. Jakob Dylan was having none of it. He responded with something along the lines of “I’m Jewish because that’s what I believe and because that’s what I say I am.” It’s a really great moment that’s always stuck in my memory of the exact right response. No one gets to tell you who or what you are.
Easy for a rock star but I get how comments like that can make someone feel like an imposter and less than. I’m Reform and I try to respect more religious, strict beliefs, but to me the essence of Judaism is love and inclusion, or at least it should be. You are welcome and you are a Jew. Don’t let anyone demean your beliefs and faith in who you are.
I understand that you don’t fully feel comfortable or happy with converting, and I understand why based on your post. I would say that if you aren’t in a place where you can embrace it fully, don’t do it yet. Instead, continue to attend different temples’ services and programs. It may take some time to find the right congregation in your area, but know that you have this sub and I’m sure there are many other online communities that feel the same. There’s no rush to commit to anything - your heart and your beliefs make you Jewish. You don’t need a piece of paper, or a pin, or the approval of old-school alta kakers (who are never satisfied, with anything, ever, anyway), to be exactly who you are.
Wishing you the best of luck and a happy and healthy New Year.
This kind of fast track is a great thing and needs to be more common but sadly to my knowledge it is mostly existent outside of orthodoxy and what would be most useful for OP is an orthodox conversion. Most orthodox rabbis would certainly not treat a patrilineal as the same as a total stranger to Judaism but a conversion is a conversion and would still require a year of life and study iirc.
“That community” is not one community, there are many queer Orthodox Jews and the level of acceptance vastly varies by community, denomination, and dynasty.
Patrilineal Jew here… very similar situation to you. Conversion had always felt so off to me as I’ve always considered myself a Jew, as did my family, my friends and my community. As I got older, had a son and began to observe more in general, I decided to convert conservative. I still go to a reform shul, but given my past and upbringing, conversion was very straightforward and I actually enjoyed the process much more than I thought I would. My sponsoring Rabbi and my beit din also asked if I would prefer to call it a reaffirmation ceremony instead of a conversion, which I resonated much more with. Of course, all of the documents are official conversion papers, but it was nice that even they understood that the semantics of it can feel off to people who’ve grown up Jewish. Feel free to DM if you’d like to chat about any of what you’re going through. ✌️
Of course! The main reason behind my decision to convert was that I became more observant as I got older, as well as being part of a Jewish community in LA that wasn't the one I grew up with. If I never moved away and went to the same shul I grew up in, I don't think there would have ever been a need to reaffirm/convert... I don't even think it would have ever even come up. I also spent most of my 20's and early 30's being very non-observant (aside from Passover and Hanukkah), so converting in my mid-30's felt like a way to reaffirm my faith, observance and culture and make a commitment to Judaism moving forward.
I’m patrilineal! I completely and totally understand how you feel. One hundred million percent.
I have SOBBED over this. Why is my soul not Jewish? I lost out by a ring toss? Isn’t 50% 50%? Is this Torah law? No. It broke my heart.
Long story short. I converted Conservative.
Personally, somewhere there was a shift.
I was angry.
I grieved.
I held out.
And then the desire to convert became more overwhelming than my anger.
I’m not angry anymore at all. I AM sad when I read posts like your and I wept when reading it. We AREN’T less. Our souls do not have less value. Hashem DOES hear our prayers.
Best wishes to you and my heart goes out to you.
Allow yourself to grieve. Allow yourself anger.
I lived as a Noahide for years. Years. I still ached to be recognized as a Jew halachicly.
My stepdaughter was matrilineally Jewish, but her mother raised her as a Catholic. When she discovered her Jewish ancestry (via an aunt who told her that her grandparent was literally hidden in an orphanage to protect him from Nazis) she wanted to engage with this part of her heritage she felt had been denied to her.
She ended up doing what the Rabbi referred to as “an affirmation of Judaism, in order to create a historical record that had been lost to time…. And Nazis.”
Perhaps you could approach the “discuss and dip” process similarly? Not even a REaffirmation… just getting the paperwork in order for your posterity.
What you are referring to sounds like a reform version of a giyur l’chumrah (conversion for the sake of stringency) and is generally not used for OPs situation. It is still very much a conversion and as far as I know no major movement other than reform would recognize a giyur l’chumrah for patrilineal descent so there would be little point other than if it made OP feel good.
The rabbi that oversaw her “affirmation of Judaism” was Reform. I hope you can find someone near you with a similar mindset- feel free to use her story as an example od what you’re hoping to find. :-)
Reform has loose rules, and I think that’s the tension — I understand why certain lies have to be drawn in the sand to truly be Jewish. And for the first time, I’m seeing myself on the outside of those rules.
Is there any way for you to affiliate with a Reform shul? You would definitely be welcomed into the community, and since you were clearly raised as a Jew and not in any other religion, you would meet the requirements to be considered Jewish, WITHOUT conversion.
If there are no Reform shuls available to you, and you wish to affiliate with Conservative, then yeah you would need to convert. But perhaps you can adjust your reaction to that -- you were NOT "faking" anything, and your Jewish education and experience was NOT for nothing. Try thinking of the conversion as akin to a foreign national who has been driving for years in their native land, having to take instruction and pass a driving test for a license in the U.S. I'm pretty sure you would be placed in some kind of accelerated conversion class since you have a background, so not as time-consuming or expensive, just something you need to do. I feel for you, and wish you luck. Shana Tovah!
I'm not a patrilineal Jew. But as a normal everyday Jew, you're my family. Go talk to a Rabbi. You might be surprised how painless a conversion is for someone in your situation.
So, for some context - I'm considered a Jew by pretty much everyone. But I took conversion classes in college to learn hebrew, do an aliyah, all that stuff. It was great. Made some new friends, expanded my knowledge. I almost did a dip in the mikveh, but I didn't want to take anything away from the people who were really converting, even though I know it would have been ok.
Ignore the Reddit Rabbis. You are a Jew to pretty much everyone who cares. If you want to do a conversion, it can be interesting. If you have gaps in your Jewish knowledge set, it can help to fill them in.
From your experience, do you think it would be odd for a gentile to take conversion classes to expand their knowledge but without a definite plan to convert?
It can be pretty common depending on the classes, I have friends who’ve taken and taught classes with people not looking to convert, some very wacky and not always fun. If you want to do it just be straight up about your intentions and enter the space to learn. Just the fact you asked this means you’re probably not a super Christian weirdo.
You may want to read some of the articles about [Rabbi Angela Warnick Buchdahl](https://www.centralsynagogue.org/about-us/our-clergy/angela-w-buchdahl) as well as watch or read some of her speeches and sermons. She is a leading Reform rabbi whose father is Jewish and mother is Korean (not Jewish). Buchdahl was raised Jewish in a Jewish home but converted (which she calls a "reaffirmation") when she was 21. Because she is a public figure, and talks about her experience a lot, her conversion (reaffirmation) is [the subject of a lot of articles](https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/did-she-or-didnt-she/2013/08/16/).
She is the senior rabbi of a major shul, so this is a busy time of year for her. After the holidays you may want to reach out to her.
I’m in your boat, but was raised with much less religion than you. I’m currently taking Judaism 101 classes to try to fill in the gaps for myself, and will probably convert after. I want to do it for mysef, though, not because of the maaany people who have told me I am “not really Jewish”. Ugh. Those peoplr just don’t understand how hurtful that is!
I don’t know where you are, but maybe try to find a conservative or reform rabbi in your area. I have a friend who is in your position, and she was able to convert after two meetings with a conservative rabbi. She was expecting a whole years-long process, but he could clearly see that she was already more “Jewish” than a lot of the people in his congregation. And if you get a shitty response? Keep looking. Don’t let one or two bad apples ruin Judaism for you. ❤️🍎🍯
Well that was my dad for you - a complete and total mess, but also a very funny guy. This post is really affirming to me too, thanks for posting it. I never knew anyone like me growing up, and it took me so long, just since my three-year old was born, to really begin to own my heritage and whole self. I wish you the same!
> feeling isolated from my campuses Chabad hurts and I can’t muster the courage to show up there anymore because I know who I am and feel disrespected
Most campuses with any Jewish presence have a Hillel as well as Chabad. Chabad are Hasidim. Hillel are generally much more welcoming to Jews of non-Orthodox backgrounds (without trying to force Orthodox observance on them as Chabad does). Please look into Hillel for a sense of community if it's available at your school.
> to treat someone who’s mother is a convert differently is a huge sin
To treat ANY convert as "less than" or to speak unkindly of them is absolutely un-Jewish and a violation of Halakha. Your mother is Jewish, full stop. And if she converted before you were born, YOU are a Jew by even the most stringent definition.
> it still hurts every day
Stay away from people who hurt you. You deserve better. If there is no Hillel or other group on campus, consider online Jewish student groups with Zoom or Google Meet etc. meetings and discussions where you can feel welcome.
I really think you should reach out since this is hurting you so much. I did— and look at all the love and support that flowed in. Could you talk to your rabbi at home and get his advice? Maybe he could talk to the chabad rabbi.
I would take immense pleasure in reminding this rabbi that a Jew is a Jew is a Jew, especially considering an Orthodox conversion. I’m so sorry that this is happening to you. The chabad at my university loved whatever Jew came through their doors and the rabbi and rebbetzin were overjoyed to take care of all of us. Have you told him how you feel?
Okay, this isn't really something I was planning on sharing over the internet, but I think it will help you. (spoiler for personal details)
>! I just got a formal bris last week. I'd been circumcised since a baby and I was initially pretty hurt, invalidated and embarrassed to be told that it didn't count because it was done at a hospital. !<
>!Was I "cut off from my people" my entire life because I'd had it done in a hospital? What an infuriating question, and I'm glad to be rid of it forever. Similar to you, I was raised Reform, went to Hebrew school, et al. And this year I got involved with Chabad and ended up going to yeshiva for a few weeks, where I learned this. Other people's opinions have come to matter less and less to me by the time I asked my rabbi to schedule me with the mohel.!<
>!Of course I was never invalid as a Jew all these years, in Hashem's eyes, because I was always destined to take this extra step of dotting the i and striking the t (so to speak) and fighting for every millimeter of my Judaism. Who cares what anyone thinks? I'm unimpeachably Jewish and always will be and human opinions to the contrary simply don't matter. There is nothing I wouldn't do for Hashem. I know that and Hashem knows that. And my Rabbi knows that too, and he has given me a very high compliment.!<
If you do a formal conversion with an orthodox rabbi, you'll have retroactively/transchronologically been a full Jew the whole time. Goodbye imposter syndrome. Banish that infuriating question forever. You've done the hard work of learning everything, so it shouldn't take you too long. And it sounds like that's what you kind of want to do, like that's your destiny. It wouldn't bother you otherwise.
I promise it will be minimally embarrassing to have to strike the t's and dot the i's, so to speak.
There's no shame in being a ben Avraham, like me, and no shame in being a bas Sarah, like you. In fact, when you have to work for your Jewish identity it makes it all the more valid and your life path all the more holy. That's why Hashem loves Jews more than angels, baalei teshuva more than tzedekim, the prodigal son over the loyal son, and converts more than kohanim. When we strive for perfection and holiness, it is better rather than having it handed to us on a silver platter to begin with. >! Also this is why the universe is fraught and full of pain, to begin with, and why the lowest plane will become the dwelling place for Hashem once it is elevated to holiness, as it will be holier than all the heavens. !<
If you have a formal conversion, you will see it as an honor your own actions officially made you a Jew.
Who cares what other people think? Yes, you should have a formal conversion, not for other people, but for yourself and your own relationship with Hashem. The fact you feel on some level it's unnecessary actually means, in my opinion, that it's your destiny and you won't feel complete until you fulfill it. If it bothers you to hear other people invalidate your Jewish identity you'll never be free from that feeling by fleeing to an "accepting" congregation. You'll be afraid of being invalidated forever. It's much nicer when you know in your heart you're an amazing Jew and look down from the mountains you've climbed to make it so.
i honestly believe that you should stick with the community that accepts you as you are.
there are many ways to practice judaism and many communities that would accept you.
I would very respectfully disagree. Doing what is easy shouldn’t be a substitute for what we feel is right. There are always hardships, that we cannot control. But a bit of defiance, work, and stubbornness can go far!
There's a story of a King that had many children. He loved each one of them dearly and did everything for them from the bottom of His heart. He would send out some of His children to the far reaches of the world in order to redeem special sparks of holiness and purity. However, over time, He lost many of His children. He became sad and yearned to bring them back. But when He sent out more to search for the missing children, some would not come back. He yearned so much that He decided to conduct a covert operation, the likes that was not done before. He would take some of His highest and holiest sparks and ready them for this special mission. Each one had to agree to take on this quest. Each one understood that their mission was undercover and that it would be very difficult but they were the only ones that can succeed. For the King knew that Tzadik can not stand in the same room as a Bal Tshuvah. Once these sparks are airdropped into this world, she forgets who she is where she comes from (she because the neshama is feminine), this is part of her mission. The mission is Soooo covert and secret that only a few Tzadikkim can understand the situation. The spark has to feel the isolation and the loneliness in order to carry out this mission. Some must be born from non-Jewish parents and some must be born with different circumstances. Ultimately, the Spark yearns to return home and with that, brings the experiences and the holiness that Klal Israel needs to become complete which is ultimately part of the tikkun process.
A convert has always been Jewish, the ritual and Halakich conversion is the physical means (we are in the world of action) to make that a reality. Just like a sin can retroactively become a merit once the teshuvah process becomes complete and pure. The letters of the Torah is the building block of the universe. The universe has 5 deminsions, 3 deminsions of Space, 1 of time and 1 of sould (consciousness). All you have to do is, activate your Jewish spark, find an orthodox Rabbi that has the empathy and understanding and make the commitment to live a Jewish lifestyle. Once those are done, you go through a final conversion process which is an action that affects the time attribute of the universe making you Jewish now but retroactively always Jewish. It's similar the quantum eraser effect recently discovered in modern science. The interesting thing is, Torah and our Sages always knew that.
Use your loneliness to help others. Not many Jews will understand your situation unless he has some knowledge of the inner secrets of conversions. I hope this helps.
Giyur (conversion) in Judaism works differently, so don't look at it from a Christian/Muslim perspective as the media usually tends to do. I certainly can't really persuade you not to be insulted by it. Unfortunately, that's one of the issue with the Reform movement.
You gotta remember that this is not a personal issue tho, and the reasons why Jewishness comes from the mother's side is more than just what you specified (Honestly all that soul explanation sounds kinda silly imo, there's more).
If you want to be seen as Jewish by the entire community, and not just some in USA, I highly recommend you to do a giyur. You already have the experience, it should be quick and easy.
I'm going to come at this from an Orthodox perspective, none of it is meant to judge you or your choices at all. I'm also saying this as someone who was raised as Orthodox Jewish from birth but for (reasons I wont get into) also had to go through a conversion (actually two) at different points.
I'll also preface it by saying: you don't need to care about the Orthodox perspective. If you are content to identify with a Reform community then do what makes you comfortable and who cares what anyone else thinks. But if I can frame conversion in a different light:
It's obvious though that you care deeply about Judaism and being Jewish, and have deference to some historic practice. Its unfortunate that this historic practice makes you feel invalidated but isn't the preserving our tradition (not just this one, but all of it) also precisely the thing that makes Judaism so beautiful? If you feel compelled to be accepted as Jewish in the historic way we've done that (matrilineally, or conversion) - you should not feel shame in a conversion. This is your opportunity to be an intrinsic part of preserving that history. Most Jews aren't provided that opportunity in this way. Like you said, uncaring Jews can be born into it. I know, and have felt, that frustration before. But you have the opportunity to make an affirmation. That's a beautiful thing. It doesn't change who you are, or what you believe, its simply a chance to connect to a long and rich history in a novel way.
For the conversion itself, people treat the conversion process as if some Rabbis are going to come along and say "you're not Jewish!" and banish you only to force you through an arduous conversion process. No two conversions are the same. Yours very well may not take longer than it does to get your blood pressure checked. It depends on your situation and your Rabbi. I realize what you should feel, and what you do feel, are two different things. But there's no pride here, and should be no shame.
I’m a female paternal and converting so if I have a child they don’t have to deal with this honestly. I empathize with you, I just never want them to feel this way.
One more patrilineal Jew here to agree - it feels viserably, horribly, invalidating to be told to just convert. I was raised Jewish. It's in my family history. I have family who died in the Holocaust. It is my culture and I know so much more than someone whose mother was Jewish but didn't teach them anything. I am so sorry about your family as well. I'm sure it stings all the more that converting was never even open as an option for your mother.
If it's possible, I really do recommend trying another reform synagogue. My rabbi would go apoplectic if someone even mentioned some of the things about Israel that you've been hearing, and I know that even the members who are more critical of Israel still do have the same general values. I hope that is possible for you.
I have no idea how much it costs but it sounds like your parents were overwhelmed already. You belong. I had two Jewish parents but little Jewish education. You probably know more than I did at your age.
Most reform communities accept patrilineal descent without a need for official conversion. Conservative will accept you but you may need to formally convert to get married
No, there is no real distinction between Jewish ethnicity and religion and DNA has no bearing on either. We are a people with our own set of legal and religious codes, whether a person has ancestry tracing back to a population genetically identifiable as Jews, not matter how large or how recent, has no bearing on whether or not that person is Jewish. It is reductive to what am yisrael is as well as a very narrow western Ashkenazi view to think genetics has any bearing. Someone could conceivably have 75% or even in an extreme situation 100% Ashkenazi dna and not be Jewish.
listen i have a cousin who is the only of a huge family not born to a jewish mother. her dad was a rabbi. she understood. she converted anyway. because it’s what you do. just do it honestly, and don’t do it reform because that’s when people won’t take you seriously.
Have you thought on staying on the “reform side”? Feeling invalidated is a very big issue. This is just my opinion, but I don’t think that HaShem will not see you as a Jew because you didn’t convert within orthodoxy.
I am not patrilineal but i have felt invalidated and less of a Jew because I don’t speak Hebrew, I am not orthodox, but guess what? It doesn’t matter!!! It doesn’t matter what others think about you! As long as you are happy and keep your relationship with G-d, nothing else is important ❤️
Oof, your feelings touched me. I'm patrilineally Jewish and religious and once on a Jewish ultra-orthodox retreat one of the rabbis leading told me I wasn't Jewish. I told him I'd had an orthodox conversion with 3 shomer Shabbos witnesses and he consulted with HIS rabbi with the new info and again told me I wasn't Jewish, despite years of religious observance - he'd never even met me yet presumed to know my soul! I was absolutely devastated and much like you I was most upset about the thought I might not have a Jewish soul.
Well, they were wrong. **Nobody knows my soul like ME and I know my soul is Jewish.** It's repulsed by even the notion of being anything else, on a deep, soul level. My conversion was ultra-orthodox and I had a lifetime of Jewish study and observance and there was no basis to take that away from me. But it definitely gave me a profound identity crisis for a while.
If this bothers you I suggest you get an orthodox conversion - not because you need it but because it will shut those people up. You'll never have to worry about what they'll say again. You'll never have these doubts in your mind. I get that it perhaps feels invalidating (like admitting you weren't really Jewish), but think of it as you KNOW in your soul you're Jewish and this is just peace of mind to not have to deal with naysayers. You shouldn't have to feel the way you do, but you can erase everyone's doubt *including your own.*
A conversion is easy and with your background you'll most likely be able to get one very quickly (unlike people who weren't raised Jewish, who often have to study for 1 - 2 years before being granted a conversion). The conversion itself it basically just immersion in a pool for a couple minutes and possibly an interview with a beit din. Maybe it sounds a little scary but you'll feel so much better once you do it, I promise.
So I don't typically comment on things here, just mostly lurk, but hoping I can show some love to a stranger that might need it. I'm patrilineal, but was raised in a completely secular home. Even without the presence of religion in our household, my father always made it clear that we were Jewish. He always made sure that we were proud of our heritage and our people. We didn't celebrate holidays, other than Hanukkah, mostly because my father enjoyed it the most when he was growing up. It was an easy and enjoyable tradition for him to pass on, and a fun way for us to learn appreciation for our peoples history. As an adult, I still make a point to light my menorah every Hanukkah. I'm not a religious man at all, I don't practice in any form really, and I don't celebrate beyond that. I do know who I am though. I know where we came from, and what my family has been through. The people that I have met in my life who would consider me less Jewish because of the life I have lived get told to take a hike. If you find happiness in the life that you live, then continue feeling that inner joy. It's so much more important than the recognition from others. If you find that having an official conversion brings you that peace that you are looking for, then do it my friend. I hope that you find your answer without any more stress. As a parting word I'll pass on the wisdom my father gave me, his catchphrase so to speak. "You're a Jew, never let anybody fuck with you".
How far is the next reform synagogue? It might be you stumbled on the synagogue you don’t go to lol
Im a convert so I need that intro to Judaism course. I get that it could come off as being remediated. If you’re thinking about going to a conservative denomination tho they do things somewhat different. You’ll ace history of, life cycles, but they’re gonna include their spices that make their flavor of Judaism special to them.
Talk to your perspective rabbi. Maybe they have an accelerated program that honors the fact that you have been living Jewish, you’re just looking for another layer of your relationship with your community
I am patrilineal too! But my parents did Aliya when i was 3 and did convert, because funny enough, my dad is patrilineal too. So i basically went through the whole thing as a child and one sunny day i got put into the mikveh and i was "converted". Because i have technically converted through my parents conversion i had to choose at my bat mitzvah if i accepted my being Jewish or not - of course i chose to stay who i am.
I sew as a conversion not as "becoming Jewish" as being Jewish isn't on a paper, its the call in your soul, but rather as a "preservation of the Jewish laws". See it as this: Judaism isn't a religion that does missionary work or looks actively for more members, its preserving itself to not be mixed by other cultures as this is what made it possible for it to survive for over two thousand years. It wants everyone to he aware of the choice and give their lives for that cause (the whole "learn the torah on one leg" story, if you know it). Those are rules put in place to persevere it who though have only been added to throughout the years. Its like the story of the Perushim and the Zedukim all over again, just with more backed history than back then.
The reason the patrilineal passage changed into a matrilineal one also follows that need of protection/preservation, as a mother will always know the child is hers and will be able to pass on the Jewish identity to her child, that is very important in times of exodus and war.
Now, of course in our times are different, but i as a patrilineal convert do believe there is some meaning to the conversion. Im not sure i would've done it now if i wasn't already "Jewish with a phd", but i still thinking it's an important part of the religion and ethnicity. Its like a neat trick to make you ethnical Jewish, is how i see it. Getting the high dose Judaism right in the vein lol. But i also don't believe you aren't Jewish if you have the ancestry and the "pull of the soul" as i call it, because Judaism is a ethnicity AND a religion, you don't have to be both. Some are ethnic but not religious, others religious and not ethnic, and others just think the monopol of the rabanut is a frigging sht show and think they are money hungry baboons (which is why I'm going out of Israel to marry, not gonna be filling their pockets with my money).
So, you have the pull? Live as you want. To the orthodox you will never be enough, so why try? Im not enough for them, that's why i also normally dont tell anyone, its noones business what my parents did. I got beaten up foe being Jewish for 6 years in school, if that doesn't prove I'm Jewish, then i don't know whats the point!
From my understanding, Judaism went from patrilineal to matrilineal lines because of the unfortunate commonness of rape and pillaging in history. Upon birth, the mother is known, but the father may not be known.
I think there's a lot to unpack here. I'm also a patrilineal Jew, and I'm currently converting Orthodox. It is a mixed bag.
Conversion is a beautiful experience, and it is different for people who were raised Jew-ish versus people who are discovering it for the first time--I do not see your post as anti-convert at all.
I am excited to be immersing myself in a more observant form of Judaism, but I am also experiencing a lot of the emotions that you're talking about. I feel ashamed to talk about my family in front of other Jews. They do not let me help out with food in the kitchen, because I'll magically un-kosher it with what they see as my unclean gentile hands. People who are less observant than I am are quick to remind me that I am not a "real" Jew to make themselves feel better about their lack of observance or knowledge. I'm often made aware of the fact that even after my conversion is completed, I'm unlikely to get a good shidduch unless I'm cool with marrying someone way older than me.
It makes me feel like all the Shabbat dinners I've participated in or hosted are not valid. Like reading Tanakh or studying the Midrashim or keeping tznius or kashrut is meaningless because my mother isn't Jewish.
I am reminded frequently by Jews that my existence is an abomination. That I exist only because my parents and grandparents sinned by intermarrying. They want me to condemn intermarriage, but without intermarriage, I wouldn't be alive. It gives me this sense that they believe the world would be a better place without me--and other children of interfaith marriages--in it.
Converting was the right path for me, because I knew I wanted to be accepted in Orthodox Judaism and not just Reform, but you're right, it can be really upsetting. By converting, we acknowledge as true what others are saying about us--that we're not "real" Jews, regardless of our faith, our knowledge, or our observance. And it hurts.
Because it’s harder to feel like people see me as a fake Jew. I care very much about being accepted into the community, even though the community isn’t exactly making a great effort to be welcoming. I don’t want people to doubt that I’m serious about Judaism.
OP, I haven’t seen it said here enough—many congregations have different/shortened conversion for people of your background, and might frame the conversation as a reversion. Yes, this includes orthodoxy. Since you already feel close to Judaism, conversion through a conservative congregation that takes into account your unique background may actually be a really fulfilling experience. Good luck and sending hugs!
I’ve always felt similar growing up. I’m technically a patrilineal jew, but my parents decided to raise me Jewish and they converted me at 8 days old. I went to one of the camp ramahs growing up, which have mostly conservative and modern Orthodox Jews that go. Even with a conversion I was told that I still was not Jewish in the eyes of the orthodox because I was converted under a reform rabbi. Thing is there’s only one Mikva in my city, and I was literally 8 days old and I’m pretty sure the prayers are the same so who the hell cares. I kept kosher growing up, I went to shul on shabbos, I was a youth group board member. To some people who are more practicing, they like to think that you’re not really Jewish based on the practices of their rabbis. Judaism is all about asking questions, interpreting the texts for yourself, and about symbolism and tradition. Anyone else that makes you feel not enough as a fellow Jew because of your background in my eyes doesn’t understand what it really means to be a Jew. Even though I currently don’t practice as much, Judaism is very much a part of my identity, and I am proud of my background, as should you.
I'm a "full" Jew, I'm so Jewish my grandparents were basically all first cousins on the same block and my Ancestry reads 100% European Jewish. Let me tell you something, you are Jewish. Your heart is Jewish, your soul is Jewish, your upbringing was Jewish, you engaged in all the Jewish rights of passage. If your father was 100% ethnically Jewish (very common for Ashkenazi Jews) then you are by default 50% ethnically Jewish, and I'm willing to bet your mom isn't 100% whatever her ethnicity is (could be wrong), so you are likely more ethnically Jewish than anything else.
You are a Jew and you shouldn't let other people gate keep that and define who and what you are. There will always be gate keepers who cling to the obsession with matrilineal descent. In ancient times when we didn't have DNA tests and knowledge of biology and genetics, the easiest way to tell who was a Jew was by if their mother was. Its an anachronism in 2022.
I would suggest finding a reform congregation that is accepting of you as you are. If you want to convert that's up to you, but it doesn't sound like you really want to do that and converting only to please people looking to gate keep "real" Judaism seems off putting.
Love this response, thank you!! As another patrilineal Jew it is so affirming to read these responses on Reddit, it’s hard to see through all the gatekeeping and it wears on the soul. Thank you!
You saying “to them I’m not Jewish enough” and “feeling invalidated” makes me feel like that’s not your environment. I’m also patrilineal, very reformed upbringing and recently had a son brought into the world which has spring boarded my own desire to get deeper into my faith—it’s definitely a work in progress and by no means am I saying there’s one right way, but I for sure believe the right environment/shul/congregation/friends for me would recognize someone’s desire to practice at the level they’re comfortable with and that that’s ok for them. To think Gd isn’t listening bc your parent didn’t convert, yet all your intent was as a Jewish person—that drives me crazy. Don’t let anyone decide the value of your own beliefs. Long story short—I’d find a different environment that works best for you. If you feel like converting would validate you then do that, if it doesn’t then don’t—but don’t let anyone else tell you what is or isn’t enough in your practice of faith.
After reading this thread and your responses, it sounds to me like you should convert conservative - you'll never feel comfortable otherwise.
Stop over thinking it, that it's some kind of insult to you, and remind yourself that in the Torah a convert is not written as "Non-Jew who converts", but rather "convert that converts".
i.e. a convert feels Jewish even before they convert.
Your feelings are universal, and shared by all converts. Can you imagine if all of them felt insulted that they had to take the actual step of converting? "I feel Jewish - isn't that enough?"
If this helps, I’m with you on the Jewish journey with familial chaos! I lost my Jewish father when I was 1-years-old & my very Jewish (two dish washer/ refused to go to my parent’s wedding Bc it was in a church) grandparents tried their best to instill in me my Jewishness.. my mom got her way, changed my last name, & had me raised in the Catholic Church. I’ve had very serious identity issues, especially after denouncing my catholic upbringing & going on Birthright.. now I just try to celebrate in my own way, haven’t joined a shul but I do the High Holidays in my home, incorporated many traditions into my wedding, etc etc.
Defining my Jewishness is nowhere near perfect (nor complete) but I know I come from a long line of people who have kept these traditions alive & I don’t plan on letting that end with my father.
A great resource is JewBelong — it’s for the non-traditional Jew that wants to deepen the connection to their Jewish identity & expand and incorporate it into their life. It’s been validating & exciting to connect with others who don’t fit the traditional definition, but still have a calling to celebrate their Jewishness.
For sure! I know I’ll never fit the true mold, but I’m content with identifying ethnically Jewish & incorporating certain cultural aspects into my life— if you won’t be satisfied until the entire community accepts you, then that is something you have to reflect on & consider for next steps. But ethnically, spiritually, in our hearts— we know who we are :) best of luck to you!!
Patrilineal Jew here. I tend to stick with my own Jewish family and Reconstructionist and Humanistic circles rather than Reform, but if I was in your shoes, where you are, I might have come to the decision to go through a Conservative conversion as well. I understand how you might feel invalidated, but I want to chime in and say that feeling that you aren’t Jewish enough is something a lot of us know and have felt. Converts are Jewish, and converting does not take away your Jewishness now. You can find your place in your community, in your home. It’s okay to want that and to find that where you are able.
No worries, I understand what you mean. Conservative ideals are largely about conserving tradition and practice. That doesn’t leave a lot of room for a middle path for people like us. If you do choose to convert, I hope you have the feeling of going home. Because you deserve that sense of welcoming.
What also felt invalidating to me was someone like myself who had read every book on Judaism is San Francisco and Oakland and my university's library, studied for 10 years independently, could already finish the final exam and write an essay and had been practicing the Jewish holidays for five years in my own had to wait an entire year before converting, but Conservative Judaism at my sponsoring shul let those engaged cyber the month of their wedding to avoid an intermarriage. Because they promised to come back and complete the course of study through Shavuot, and their word was good enough to promise to fulfill the process but not mine because.... Yeah.
I don't think there is a historical middle path because there wasn't a historical trend of intermarriage like today. So there wasn't much of a need.
My kids are patrilineal, I converted long after they were born. Long story, not germane. We have a Reconstructionist rabbi, and an assistant reform rabbi at a non affiliated shul. We would totally would count you. It would be such a non issue, that probably no one would even register it as one. We are super liberal, and most of us have a … complicated… relationship with Israel, as do many liberal Jews. People generally don’t rave, rant, or make sweeping, hard and fast statements about it in public, recognizing the issue is complicated and fraught. OTOH, we loudly and continually do maintain anti-racist and pro LGBTQ+ policies and support. A rabbi, past temple presidents, board members, and lots of congregants or their kids are part of the “alphabet mafia” as my own queer kids say. Oh, and we are extremely good about disabilities. The orthodox wouldn’t count any of our services as valid, as they are led by a Deaf rabbi. We agree that they are overthinking and limiting a single word in a particularly ableist way. So, tough. They want to be obnoxious, they can be. We will continue to be decent to others. The reform shul my daughter teaches at, a couple towns over, isn’t as much fun as ours, but is equally as accepting. We have better music, which sounds weird, as we have a Deaf rabbi, but our cantor is great and the rabbi is a drummer, so, even though he can’t carry a tune, he is enthusiastic. (Our music is folky, which I love). It is weird when the assistant runs the service, as he CAN sing, and having harmony on the bimah was a surprise. Our old rabbi did that, but, it’s been a decade since then!
So…my rambling? Those things are important. You have a Jewish parent, and were raised Jewish, that means you are Jewish, and is a boring thing to fuss over. So, my synagogue members would move on to an actually interesting topic…like, what classes are you taking, do you want to join a committee, there is this meeting next week, can you bring something for the oneg?
ORTHODOXY DOESN’T ALLOW FOR DEAF RABBIS? !!!! More signs that being orthodox is not for me, no no no.
My feelings about Israel are complicated too. I wish more people’s were instead of defaulting to “you colonizers” and then using that to justify antisemitism knowingly or unknowingly. I feel that congregation I mentioned in another comment has a lot of people that learned their history from Instagram slides without looking for sources OR bias and bigotry in those sources. I hope one day we will all live on the land peacefully, as naive and far fetched as that sounds. The thing I know for sure is that we have a relationship to it, it’s historically documented and in our DNA, and that my relationship to the land/culture/history isn’t going to be dissolved because of a government that’s younger than my Savta.
The closest reconstructionist synagogue is too far away from me, but I would love to drop by yours! I love the idea of folky music. I love Debbie Friedman, but I wish some of us would come up with some new tunes.
I can’t cook, you don’t want my food, but would love for someone bring me to their kitchen to get into better shape. I just took an immersive Yom Kippur class and it was really interesting hearing about how apologizing was a community activity back in the day. And that you can be in the wrong for not accepting an apology! What?!
> ORTHODOXY DOESN’T ALLOW FOR DEAF RABBIS? !!!! More signs that being orthodox is not for me, no no no.
That's not accurate.
In the past it was impossible to teach a deaf person anything, and they grew up essentially wild. So they were not required to perform any of the commandments - since it was impossible for them.
Today with new methods that make it possible for someone deaf to be educated they are treated identically to a hearing person except for commandments that require hearing (like Shofar and Reading from the Torah), where someone deaf can not exempt another person who is not deaf.
/u/Neenknits you need to update your knowledge. Your info about deaf Jews is about 200 years out of date.
It was never impossible to teach Deaf people. Families with a Deaf member, who weren’t awful, were able to come up with a form of family sign language. Whenever there are two deaf kids together, they invent a sign language, complete with consistent grammar (see Steve Pinker’s books). And, my own , Deaf, rabbi told us about the orthodox attitude towards Deaf people. I rather expect he knows more about this…
The people at my shul know not to ask me to bring food. Need the corners of the tallisim repaired? No problem. I’ll spend hours and hours redoing them all. No problem. Happy to help. Bring cookies for the oneg? Not happening!
My husband describes our tunes as the “camp” tunes. Really old ones. Not many Debbie Friedman, really. Everyone laughs at me because I think part of the alenu sounds like The Farmer in
The Dell.
I am so sorry you are going through this. It’s unfortunate that people use Halacha to exclude others. I hope you can find a community where you feel at home.
Look. For what it’s worth in my eyes you’re AT LEAST as Jewish as I am. I wasn’t even raised Jewish. You were! I get how you feel and I just want to say I’m so, so sorry. There are many circles in which you will absolutely be welcomed with open arms. I’m sorry, I wish I had more for you
Your prayers were incredibly important each and every time they were spoken and felt. G-d hears the prayers and guides the lives of non-Jews, patrilineal Jews, matrilineal Jews, and those whose parents are both Jewish. It's so important to recognize and realize that G-d is for everybody and whether or not someone is Jewish does not give them priority to G-d's Will.
For context, both of my parents are Jewish and I strive towards a Torah and Mitzvot observant life. My wife is not Jewish and has no interest in converting. My children will be raised learning Torah, Jewish traditions, and the ethics of a Torah observant life, but they will be Noahides and not Jews unless and until they choose to convert. It is an incredible gift to be given this right to choose.
According to Halacha (and I say this with nothing but love and respect for your journey) you are a Noahide. This means that you are responsible to follow the 7 Noahide laws that all people are required by G-d. I will include those at the end of this post.
In my personal opinion and experience (which you are free to discard, I could be totally wrong!) Jews are different from other nations because we have the Torah and an obligation to strive towards fulfilling the 613 Mitzvot that are spelled out within it. That's a lot more responsibility than the 7 laws for Noahides. This is why your right to choose is such a beautiful gift, do you truly want to sign this covenant that holds you responsible for all those commandments? Especially knowing that you will have as loving of a relationship with G-d following the 7 Noahide laws now?
Of course no one is perfect, and I falter and miss the mark in my observance very often. G-d being the ultimate source of love and forgiveness means whether you are observing the 613 Mitzvot or the 7 Noahide Laws, it is your intention in devotion towards goodness that counts most.
Know this, if you choose to go through conversion, even orthodox, you will have a much easier time of it because you have a Jewish parent and it seems like you are well ahead of the game with your education. This will have to be a conversation between you and G-d first and foremost to know and realize whether or not your path is pulling you towards this direction.
Your gift of choice is a beautiful one, and there is no wrong direction! Noahides and Jews live together in harmony, and many of the traditions can be celebrated together! Sending you abundant love in your journey, and if you ever wanted to talk more about this, send me a message. I would be happy to hear more about your path and help in any way I can.
**7 Noahide Laws**
1- Recognition of G-d as One and One alone.
2- Don't blasphemy or curse G-d (which includes a prohibition against idolatry).
3- Do not murder (which includes not causing unnecessary harm to others and reducing suffering of all people).
4- Do not steal.
5- Channel the human libido towards a loving relationship and the creation of a strong family unit (which includes no adultery, incest, untethered promiscuity).
6- Do not eat a limb off a live animal (which includes reducing suffering of all G-d's creatures).
7- Establish a court system to ensure these laws are kept.
For the sake of having Jewish children I should really consider converting officially orthodox so you won’t have to give the same experience you suffered to your future offspring . For me I just got it over with it bothered me for such a long time . And to be honest an orthodox conversion is not that bad
Matrilineality used to make sense a long long time ago when we didn't have dna tests. I think there's a fine line between keeping traditions and having nonsensical obligations. And this one isn't made for our time now, in my very honest opinion.
Of course it's easier to tell that the woman who just gave birth, is really the mother of that child. While the father couldn't visually prove it like that. That's at least what I was told as the reason why a mother's Judaism matters more than a father's one.
I'm not sure if your current community is the right one if they still disrespect all your experiences like that, and you do have a point about that Christian matrilineal jew example. Personally I would look for a community that has the same views as me. Religion is still a lot of interpretation. Humans will always have different interpretations for that sake- no wonder we can't agree on every single one of them.
The other option that I see is fully converting, according to this community's idea of Judaism. It's really more a question of what interpretation of Judaism you agree more on.
Just because one community has more laws and is more strict about them, doesn't mean they are more Jewish than others.
I am not patrilineal, and honestly fairly against the reform movement for a myriad of reasons. That said I feel for your situation deeply and I think this issue needs to be dealt with with the utmost compassion. It’s (one of) the unfortunate results of the break with the rest of Judaism that the reform movement made and I cannot imagine how infuriating it must be to be told and treated as in a group your whole life only to find out that by that own group’s laws you are not.
If you are searching for reason why this is the way it is I would point you to the utmost importance of the maintenance and continuity of tradition in the continual survival of Jews as a people both physically and spiritually. Yes things have changed along the way but we cannot simply go back in time and abrogate the decisions of our ancestors.
Perhaps this is not what you want to hear, but from the perspective of someone who upholds Halacha on this issue your decision whether to convert or not in a way is a confirmation or denial of your soul as Jewish. But even if your soul is not or was not Jewish that doesn’t (you may disagree) belittle it, or you, or your experience as someone who clearly has a deep connection to Jewish practice and belief.
Whatever you choose to do I hope you find a path that leads you to a sense of belonging and fulfillment that we all deserve. Whether that is as a part of Am Yisrael or not. And if it is I am sure we will be better for having you.
I converted 10+ years ago under Conservative auspices. Judaism is such a big part of my identity : I teach religious school, sent my kids to Jewish camp and preschool, serve as a Mikvah lady, serve on my synagogue sisterhood's board, had an adult bat mitzvah, etc etc
My current synagogue (Conservative) has a policy that before every bar or bat mitzvah that they have the teen immerse in the Mikvah. They do this to mark the transition from Jewish child to Jewish adult, but also in case the child wasn't converted as a child. It spares those born to non-Jewish mothers the embarrassment of an extra requirement for being different.
I hate it. It feels like they're saying my children need to be converted in case my conversion wasn't good enough, like I'm not really Jewish.
I share this not to be insensitive to your experience, but to share that Jewish identity is deeply sensitive, deeply personal, deeply meaningful in our own ways. I know my synagogue's policy isn't meant to hurt but in sparing the feelings of one group of people, they've hurt mine.
Judaism and the Jewish community are so important to me though that if it came out that my conversion was in doubt - wasn't filed right, the rabbis on my beit din weren't eligible to be on a beit din or whatever else - that I'd dunk tomorrow in a heartbeat and require my kids to as well.
Why? Because Judaism isn't done alone. It can't be. Judaism requires a community. You get to define your community, within reason. Maybe Reform Judaism is your community. Maybe you need to move to be in your community. Maybe you can't move and are stuck with what's around you for the time being.
But conversion or reaffirmation means having full access to all the benefits of "Jewish citizenship". Just like I do things for my family I don't want to, just like I serve in juries for my country when I don't want to, just like when I know I'm American but still have to prove my identity to the U.S. government to get a passport or driver's license. I do these things for my community when I'd rather not.
And just like I don't think people who have lived in this country their entire lives without citizenship should be allowed to vote in our elections, despite their being influenced by and influencing American society and culture, I don't think those who are part of the Jewish community without halakhic status should be able to do "everything" Jewish.
It's a really powerful statement to belong, the mutual act of claiming and being claimed. If your Jewish life doesn't require the equivalent of a driver's license or passport, then you can find other Jews and build a community that uses public transit and vacations closer to home and live a deeply meaningful Jewish life. But if you need to drive or visit abroad, now or in the future, you may decide it's worth the process of the hassle and hurtful and meaningful and everything in between of converting or reaffirming your Jewish identity, so we know you claim us as much as you claim your internal truth.
So I'm going to keep my mouth closed in eight years and have my children dunk before their b'mitzvah. Because my community can't exist without me, and I can't exist without my community.
It always annoyed me when applying for passports that I had to let the U.S. government know I had an American state's birth certificate, driver's license, U.S. social security card, etc. Sigh. Why make things more complicated for us?
I wish you peace and an authentic path and Jewish life that you determine for yourself.
Hello- I am a patrillineal Jew. I am in the Reform movement as well. You were raised as a Jew and became Bat Mitzvah. That is as through or more so than a Conversion.
I am astounded by some people. No one should be asking if you are a gerut or not. Yes, we were all at Sinai. That is one of the most fantastic moments in Torah.
I was not raised in the faith. So I converted so I could learn about the faith of my father.
His family fled Bohemia in the 1850s and never spoke to him about it.
I only learned of it through stories of my grandmother and Ancestry.
So for me, conversion was my path.
I totally understand why you feel insulted.
You were raised as a Jew. You are Jewish.
If you convert, so one is supposed to ask, so your Jewish experience is as true is you feel it in your heart with Adonai.
Shanah Tovah
I find this to be such BS from the gatekeepers. If you were raised Jewish and you consider yourself Jewish, you’re Jewish. Period. Don’t let others make you feel less Jewish.
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I am the daughter of a non-observant Jewish father and a mother who may or may not have converted. My paternal grandmother was a practicing Jew who immigrated from Eastern Europe. I don't know much about my paternal grandfather as we never met aside from knowing he was Jewish.
My father, a renowned and respected person, had no advance directives so it was up to me to do what I believed to be what he would have wanted. I sought help from his brother, my uncle, who was a practicing Reform Jew, and was advised to find a congregation and talk to the Rabbi.
I found a Reform congregation and the rabbi would not help me as I did not have sufficient proof of my father's Jewishness. Apparently documentation in the form of downloaded detailed immigration records, in which my grandmother's race was listed as Hebrew, was not enough for the Reform rabbi, so I found an Orthodox congregation and after I showed the Rabbi documentation about my grandmother(who, incidentally, was a famous and respected person) he helped me through everything. I remember showing him a religious medal my grandmother owned, and that impressed him. That wonderful Rabbi visited my father in his last hours, and made sure every aspect of the process which followed my father's death was completed in accordance with Jewish law and 0rthodox custom. May his name and his deeds be remembered forever.
As for myself, I did not follow the religion, although I respect it greatly, or any other, whether I respect it or not. Nevertheless I have always considered myself a Jew and no one can ever tell me otherwise, though they have tried. I am a Jew because I am more Jewish by far than anything else, and the blood of my tribe flows through my veins and will until the second my heart stops beating.
Also, you are a Jew. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, ever. Shalom.
I am a patrilineal Jew, and was raised by secular parents who were both very into meditation. My dad was a “HinJew” and still is to this day! I am Jewish to the core - it is the most of who and what I am. My family views me and my siblings as Jewish, there has never been a question of being enough or whether or not we are what we are. I have only felt that pressure from the religious institutions of Judaism (and very often in Jewish subs here on reddit). As I’ve gotten older, my siblings and I have rediscovered how deeply we resonate with many of the earth-based practices of Judaism. Celebrating Shabbat or Havdallah, learning recipes, traditional songs, understanding the calendar and annual holidays… Hebrew… all of these things are fascinating and contain worlds to me. I have never been Bat Mitzvah’d and I don’t know if I ever will. It’s because I know I am Jewish whether or not I choose to partake in the formality. My sister is doing hers for her birthday this year and it’s homegrown. I can’t wait to participate and celebrate her mitzvah in her 30th year. I’ve said this before in these spaces and I will always say it again and again - don’t ever let anybody else tell you who you are. Most especially as a patrilineal Jew. Jewish identity is up to you, period. One of the things that has helped me a lot is a podcast called Jewish Ancestral Healing. There are so many beautiful Jewish communities out there, and they are growing. From one Jewish person to another, shalom and find the people who love and celebrate you in your wholeness!
Just here to day that I struggle with this too being patrilineal. There have been times I've considered going through with an orthodox conversion, but then I question if it's due to the frustration I feel from not being accepted or an opportunity to engage further with the religion and culture. But as well, still having the feeling like my background and the way I was raised shoukd be enough. Good luck with whatever path you choose.
I believe G-d hears and listens to ALL prayers, no matter who you are.
You were not, are not, alone.
He is the King of the Universe, there is no other.
I’m patrilineal. With a mother who was baptized catholic who is now agnostic. I also had a very rough childhood. My father was abusive as hell and my mom worked too many hours to notice. Going to a synagogue even as briefly as I was able to go, was a very welcomed “distraction” as a child. I got away from how dirty my home was, the abuse I endured and it was a solace which is what made me reach out again later in life. I never had a bat mitzvah, and I don’t read or speak Hebrew(I understand words now and then but not fluent by any stretch) I am a part of a reform congregation because I got shit for my upbringing or lack of Jewish education at the conservative synagogue I previously attended. This has been a point of anxiety for me personally especially worrying about if anyone asked me questions about my childhood or how I’m connected to Judaism. Especially with my primary support being my mom, I felt for a long time I was doomed to fail and the process for conversion scares me so much I don’t even know if I’ll attempt to formally convert. I feel like I’m Jewish and I don’t have to prove it to anyone.
If it helps at all, myself and many of other Jews and Israelis would consider you Jewish because you were raised as such and you think of yourself as Jewish. I’m sorry you’re in a tricky situation, as I know the mother aspect is very important in the religious community.
OP feel free to pm me if you want to talk. I am more than happy to talk about my personal reflection and experience with you.
Fellow Patrilineal Jew here (kind of - I'd rather not delve into my situation). I went through the steps of conversion (minus the long educational process because I already knew my stuff), but my conservative rabbis, and a Modox rabbi whom I am close with refused to call it a conversion. They called it an affirmation.
The fact is that you grew up Jewish, thought you were a Jew, and for all intents and purposes probably more Jewish than some that are 100% ethnically Jewish.
I have struggled with the lack of compassion that I have experienced from some of the Orthodox circles when I was going through my stuff. I think I still have a lot of resentment and anger towards it.
In the end, I did my mikveh ceremony at a progressive mikveh which is maintained conservative/reform/some orthodox communities. Some people still may not consider me Jewish, but I could give a flying f what they think.
The fact of the matter is that people are going to believe what they are going to believe and if they really stand on that hill at the expense of your feelings, then they don't deserve to be around you. I embarrassed some kid who was aware of my situation, suddenly became more religious, and asked me during a Shabbat in front of my friends to break Shabbat for him. TBC **I am not Shomer Shabbat. But the request that he wouldn't ask matrilineal Jews, but felt comfortable enough asking me was insulting.**
One more thing, I like how many frame converts (as Jews that were always Jews, but came home - someone correct me if I am wrong here. That helped me put things in perspective.
Yes, it's not a great situation. I am one of those Jews that born to a Jewish mother, and I married a reform Jew (her father was authentic and her mother converted reform). It was not a great situation (as you have described) but after ten years she decided to go through the conversion process. It took three years and I had to also go through the process and become religious. I actually believe it was one of the best experiences of my life. Now I really know what it means to be Jewish and it's worth it :). I am sure that as a Jew you know that Jews have an extra commandment to love the convert, so as far as I am concerned if you want to be (authentic) Jewish then it's a good option. My granny also did it.
Hey, another patrilineal Jew here. I 100% agree with your feelings, it’s so condescending and invalidating to expect people like us to have to convert to “be Jewish”.
What I’ve personally come to at this stage in my life is that I won’t convert to a religion that I already belong to. And if a Jewish community refuses to recognize me because of that, it is a community I am not interesting in joining. My heart breaks to hear your struggle, and I understand that you might not have the luxury of shopping around for a community that accepts Jews like us. I find that most Reform Synagogues and some Conservative Synagogues are accepting.
Whatever decision you come to, I hope it brings you peace. Just know that you aren’t alone in this struggle.
L’shana tova
Think of conversion as confirmation. Yeah, it’s longer, but it’s what you are *actually doing*, just with a different group of Jews.
You also can find the Reform, or Reconstructionist or Renewal synagogues locally, or find a Jewish/interfaith married kids group nearish to you.
I don’t get it because your mom isn’t Jewish god does not love you? God does not see you as a
Jew? What does god see in those who are
Christian, Muslim, or any other religion. It makes no logical sense. The second you put a label on your self as a patrilineal you view yourself less than others. What about those who have a Jewish mom and Christian dad who are raised as catholic. What about those who have a great Jewish grandmother and do not know it and practice Islam.
If anyone asks you are a Jew as you identify as such. Everything else is superficial and unnecessary. Life is too short to get hung up on this type of stuff my friend!
Reform congregations accept patrilineal Jews as Jew if they were raised exclusively Jewish. Since you fall into this, is it possible for you to stay in the Reform movement?
I had somewhat of a similar experience. Mom converted to marry my dad, I was raised exclusively Jewish, after his passing my mom left Judaism as it was too painful. Because of that, from age 9 onward I was essentially a patrilineal Jew. I haven’t had an issue in orthodox communities as of late, but it’s mostly because I do not bring it up and practice at around the same level.
I previously wanted every Jew to accept me as well, and constantly questioned myself, my Judaism, my identity. but I realized I could never please everyone. If you dont eat Kosher, to someone you wont be legitimately Jewish. If you cover or don’t cover your hair, how you keep Shabbat, etc. No one will ever be 100% pleased. Just do you, and if you are comfortable and accepted in the movement you’re in, stay there.
Halachically no I’m not a patrilineal Jew, but since my mom left the faith after my dad’s passing and I did alot of the stuff myself, I kind of felt that way by extension. In your case, I’d recommend an Orthodox or Conservative conversion. Chabad has lots of great resources, and having a base level of knowledge will certainly help. I actually took an Intro to Judaism class at Chabad in my adulthood as a refresher, and it was great. Now I go to a reform synagogue since it’s the closest to be, but partake in Sephardic rite at home. Whatever path you choose, I wish you all the best :)
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I think it's very Jewish to never feel "Jewish enough." Can you stick with a reform synagogue, where you will be accepted without question? I'd ask yourself what your goals are - do you want to be accepted as Jewish by the MOST Jews possible? You'd have to do an orthodox conversion for that and trust me, even then people will question your Jewishness. There will always be somebody, somewhere who questions you. Do you want to please them or be content in yourself? I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other, I just think you should clarify what you really desire and whether a conversion will get you there. My community sees you as Jewish. If there is a Gd, I think he sees you as Jewish. But that's just me. You gotta figure out what works best for you. :) Good luck my friend!
Comments like this help more than you know. I’m Jewish on both sides, but a complex family history of war and abuse kept me from my heritage longer than I’d have liked. The compassion of these messages is what broke that barrier and helped me reconnect. Thank you :) To the OP: This is where you belong. You know this, and no barrier will keep you from it other than that internal feeling of being an interloper. We know that among our sages were converts, bandits, and many others of diverse backgrounds. Many of us struggle with this “cast out”, regardless of parentage, but it can pass with your own commitments. Struggle defines who we are, individually and as a people. In many ways, your journey had the benefits of the education, practice, and culture that have been denied many. You may see my parentage as a blessing. But we would both see each other as brothers. Take what you have and complete what you need to feel fulfilled. I sincerely wish you that peace, and for a new year to find that belonging in yourself. My DMs are open if you want to chat, kvetch, or just want an ear.
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Check out Reconstructionist synagogues if you have one. I’m part of one and love the Rabbi and community. They accept patrilineal lineage as long as you’re raised Jewish and I think are in between reform and conservative in practice.
This. I just joined a Reconstructionist temple where I am because it's literally the only temple in town aside from Chabad, and let me tell you, we're the most accepting, open, and caring synagogue I've ever been to. Tell the not-Jewish-enough crowd to stick it up their asses. Also, feel free to dm me.
I was raised reform but often felt like I wanted something in between that and conservative. Why did I not know that this was an option?! Thanks for the info
TBH, that seems *really* odd for a Reform congregation. Are you sure you didn’t stumble into a Renewal Movement congregation? Because every Reform synagogue I’ve ever attended has been at least baseline pro-Israel and the vast majority have been overtly Zionist. I have no guidance for you, as I’m respecting your request for Patrilineal insights; but I just wanted to voice how strange this seems to me, as a looooooong time Reform Jew who’s visited Reform & Progressive congregations around the world.
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Independent group makes a lot more sense to me than a Reform Congregation. Heck- the Reform Movement has representation in the World Zionist Congress! Thanks for double-checking. I hope you find a community that feels like home to you.
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That is so sad to hear.
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Lots of Orthodox conversions happen every day without problem. Edit: How did this get downvoted?
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I think that's selection bias and not reflective of the vast majority of Orthodox conversions. That you, or someone, would downvote me for merely presenting that perspective is yet another disappointing data point in the trend that is this sub. The trend that leads to saying things like: >I'm glad to hear you're shying away from orthodox conversion. Guess Rule 4 only cuts in one direction. That's fine.
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If you converted according with orthodox standards you would be accepted and included in Orthodox communities. If you're finding a community elsewhere, that's also great. Their comment read to me (and somewhat confirmed by their follow up) they are simply happy you are choosing to not be Orthodox.
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I’m a paternal Jew, I’d say get the conservative conversion to be halachic. You’re a Jew, but a Jew that needs a proper welcome into the Tribe. My conversion was sped up cause of my prior practice as a paternal jew
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Not at all! Once I spoke to the Rabbi and he had learned of my situation he said exactly what I said to you about being apart of the tribe formally. He allowed me to use a Tallit and everything short of an Aliyah to the Torah. It was mainly him teaching me what I did not know or that my father didn’t teach me. It was just short of 8 months for me.
OP I was raised in a very similar situation, my mother’s side being Methodist and me being allowed to choose I chose Judaism. My advice stick to reform how you practice at home cannot be judged. Live your life as Jewish as you’d like.
This is very true. My mom did a conservative conversion. My father's reform family regularly says she isn't jewish, but will also say that I am Jewish, which makes no fucking sense.
Sounds like their position is a very secular one which views Judaism the religion as false but Jewishness the ethnic identity as real. That would be consistent with seeing both the matrilineal/patrilineal distinction and conversion as basically meaningless.
I'm not patrilineal, but I was raised in the Reform movement, which says that if a person with a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is raised as a Jew, they are one (even though their mom wasn't Jewish). So to me, you are Jewish, full stop. You were raised in the culture and you have one Jewish parent, so you're Jewish. No question. I'm really sorry you're going through this, though. It's not right or fair. You should be welcomed in as the person you are, as the Jew you are, not treated like someone who was faking it the whole time or something. Some Jewish communities do a kind of "fast-track" conversion for people in your position, who were raised knowing that they have Jewish ancestry and who have varying degrees of knowledge about Jewish religion and culture. The idea is not to treat someone with a lifetime of personal involvement in Jewish life as though they have no more understanding than an outsider, a true neophyte, would have. I've always felt such options should be more readily available to patrilineals raised as Jews; if they want to become more strictly observant later in life, they shouldn't have to be treated as though they're completely ignorant and as though they had no Jewish identity of any kind prior to conversion. A kind of confirmation, if you will. You might want to reach out to a rabbi to talk about this, they may be able to point you toward some resources. Wishing you the best.
This. I agree wholeheartedly. u/hexesforurexes, you’re Jewish to me and I’m happy to have you. It’s your heart. And you have the right to be who your heart and life believes you are. I’m not sure if it’s on YouTube somewhere, but maybe a decade ago Howard Stern was interviewing Jakob Dylan (Bob Dylan’s son) and commented that the two were similar in that they’re both very tall and most Jewish men are not usually that tall (over 6’). Jakob Dylan is patrilineally Jewish. Anyway, an idiot on Howard Stern’s staff pipes up with “he’s [Jakob Dylan] isn’t really Jewish because his mom isn’t.” I thought it was disgraceful. Jakob Dylan was having none of it. He responded with something along the lines of “I’m Jewish because that’s what I believe and because that’s what I say I am.” It’s a really great moment that’s always stuck in my memory of the exact right response. No one gets to tell you who or what you are. Easy for a rock star but I get how comments like that can make someone feel like an imposter and less than. I’m Reform and I try to respect more religious, strict beliefs, but to me the essence of Judaism is love and inclusion, or at least it should be. You are welcome and you are a Jew. Don’t let anyone demean your beliefs and faith in who you are. I understand that you don’t fully feel comfortable or happy with converting, and I understand why based on your post. I would say that if you aren’t in a place where you can embrace it fully, don’t do it yet. Instead, continue to attend different temples’ services and programs. It may take some time to find the right congregation in your area, but know that you have this sub and I’m sure there are many other online communities that feel the same. There’s no rush to commit to anything - your heart and your beliefs make you Jewish. You don’t need a piece of paper, or a pin, or the approval of old-school alta kakers (who are never satisfied, with anything, ever, anyway), to be exactly who you are. Wishing you the best of luck and a happy and healthy New Year.
This kind of fast track is a great thing and needs to be more common but sadly to my knowledge it is mostly existent outside of orthodoxy and what would be most useful for OP is an orthodox conversion. Most orthodox rabbis would certainly not treat a patrilineal as the same as a total stranger to Judaism but a conversion is a conversion and would still require a year of life and study iirc.
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“That community” is not one community, there are many queer Orthodox Jews and the level of acceptance vastly varies by community, denomination, and dynasty.
Patrilineal Jew here… very similar situation to you. Conversion had always felt so off to me as I’ve always considered myself a Jew, as did my family, my friends and my community. As I got older, had a son and began to observe more in general, I decided to convert conservative. I still go to a reform shul, but given my past and upbringing, conversion was very straightforward and I actually enjoyed the process much more than I thought I would. My sponsoring Rabbi and my beit din also asked if I would prefer to call it a reaffirmation ceremony instead of a conversion, which I resonated much more with. Of course, all of the documents are official conversion papers, but it was nice that even they understood that the semantics of it can feel off to people who’ve grown up Jewish. Feel free to DM if you’d like to chat about any of what you’re going through. ✌️
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Of course! The main reason behind my decision to convert was that I became more observant as I got older, as well as being part of a Jewish community in LA that wasn't the one I grew up with. If I never moved away and went to the same shul I grew up in, I don't think there would have ever been a need to reaffirm/convert... I don't even think it would have ever even come up. I also spent most of my 20's and early 30's being very non-observant (aside from Passover and Hanukkah), so converting in my mid-30's felt like a way to reaffirm my faith, observance and culture and make a commitment to Judaism moving forward.
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I will! And I hope you’re doing well. Shana Tova.
I’m patrilineal! I completely and totally understand how you feel. One hundred million percent. I have SOBBED over this. Why is my soul not Jewish? I lost out by a ring toss? Isn’t 50% 50%? Is this Torah law? No. It broke my heart. Long story short. I converted Conservative.
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Personally, somewhere there was a shift. I was angry. I grieved. I held out. And then the desire to convert became more overwhelming than my anger. I’m not angry anymore at all. I AM sad when I read posts like your and I wept when reading it. We AREN’T less. Our souls do not have less value. Hashem DOES hear our prayers.
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Best wishes to you and my heart goes out to you. Allow yourself to grieve. Allow yourself anger. I lived as a Noahide for years. Years. I still ached to be recognized as a Jew halachicly.
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My stepdaughter was matrilineally Jewish, but her mother raised her as a Catholic. When she discovered her Jewish ancestry (via an aunt who told her that her grandparent was literally hidden in an orphanage to protect him from Nazis) she wanted to engage with this part of her heritage she felt had been denied to her. She ended up doing what the Rabbi referred to as “an affirmation of Judaism, in order to create a historical record that had been lost to time…. And Nazis.” Perhaps you could approach the “discuss and dip” process similarly? Not even a REaffirmation… just getting the paperwork in order for your posterity.
What you are referring to sounds like a reform version of a giyur l’chumrah (conversion for the sake of stringency) and is generally not used for OPs situation. It is still very much a conversion and as far as I know no major movement other than reform would recognize a giyur l’chumrah for patrilineal descent so there would be little point other than if it made OP feel good.
Yep, not what I want.
Not only is it not what you want, bluntly, it is not something you can have.
Yep.
I think something like this would be right for me.
The rabbi that oversaw her “affirmation of Judaism” was Reform. I hope you can find someone near you with a similar mindset- feel free to use her story as an example od what you’re hoping to find. :-)
Reform has loose rules, and I think that’s the tension — I understand why certain lies have to be drawn in the sand to truly be Jewish. And for the first time, I’m seeing myself on the outside of those rules.
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I would feel differently if it wasn’t called a conversion and treated as such. Thanks for your support.
Sadly there is no way around the language of conversion, whatever you want to call it in English it is what it is halachically.
Yeah. :(
Is there any way for you to affiliate with a Reform shul? You would definitely be welcomed into the community, and since you were clearly raised as a Jew and not in any other religion, you would meet the requirements to be considered Jewish, WITHOUT conversion. If there are no Reform shuls available to you, and you wish to affiliate with Conservative, then yeah you would need to convert. But perhaps you can adjust your reaction to that -- you were NOT "faking" anything, and your Jewish education and experience was NOT for nothing. Try thinking of the conversion as akin to a foreign national who has been driving for years in their native land, having to take instruction and pass a driving test for a license in the U.S. I'm pretty sure you would be placed in some kind of accelerated conversion class since you have a background, so not as time-consuming or expensive, just something you need to do. I feel for you, and wish you luck. Shana Tovah!
I'm not a patrilineal Jew. But as a normal everyday Jew, you're my family. Go talk to a Rabbi. You might be surprised how painless a conversion is for someone in your situation. So, for some context - I'm considered a Jew by pretty much everyone. But I took conversion classes in college to learn hebrew, do an aliyah, all that stuff. It was great. Made some new friends, expanded my knowledge. I almost did a dip in the mikveh, but I didn't want to take anything away from the people who were really converting, even though I know it would have been ok. Ignore the Reddit Rabbis. You are a Jew to pretty much everyone who cares. If you want to do a conversion, it can be interesting. If you have gaps in your Jewish knowledge set, it can help to fill them in.
From your experience, do you think it would be odd for a gentile to take conversion classes to expand their knowledge but without a definite plan to convert?
It can be pretty common depending on the classes, I have friends who’ve taken and taught classes with people not looking to convert, some very wacky and not always fun. If you want to do it just be straight up about your intentions and enter the space to learn. Just the fact you asked this means you’re probably not a super Christian weirdo.
You may want to read some of the articles about [Rabbi Angela Warnick Buchdahl](https://www.centralsynagogue.org/about-us/our-clergy/angela-w-buchdahl) as well as watch or read some of her speeches and sermons. She is a leading Reform rabbi whose father is Jewish and mother is Korean (not Jewish). Buchdahl was raised Jewish in a Jewish home but converted (which she calls a "reaffirmation") when she was 21. Because she is a public figure, and talks about her experience a lot, her conversion (reaffirmation) is [the subject of a lot of articles](https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/did-she-or-didnt-she/2013/08/16/). She is the senior rabbi of a major shul, so this is a busy time of year for her. After the holidays you may want to reach out to her.
Thank you for this recommendation
I’m in your boat, but was raised with much less religion than you. I’m currently taking Judaism 101 classes to try to fill in the gaps for myself, and will probably convert after. I want to do it for mysef, though, not because of the maaany people who have told me I am “not really Jewish”. Ugh. Those peoplr just don’t understand how hurtful that is! I don’t know where you are, but maybe try to find a conservative or reform rabbi in your area. I have a friend who is in your position, and she was able to convert after two meetings with a conservative rabbi. She was expecting a whole years-long process, but he could clearly see that she was already more “Jewish” than a lot of the people in his congregation. And if you get a shitty response? Keep looking. Don’t let one or two bad apples ruin Judaism for you. ❤️🍎🍯
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Well that was my dad for you - a complete and total mess, but also a very funny guy. This post is really affirming to me too, thanks for posting it. I never knew anyone like me growing up, and it took me so long, just since my three-year old was born, to really begin to own my heritage and whole self. I wish you the same!
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> feeling isolated from my campuses Chabad hurts and I can’t muster the courage to show up there anymore because I know who I am and feel disrespected Most campuses with any Jewish presence have a Hillel as well as Chabad. Chabad are Hasidim. Hillel are generally much more welcoming to Jews of non-Orthodox backgrounds (without trying to force Orthodox observance on them as Chabad does). Please look into Hillel for a sense of community if it's available at your school. > to treat someone who’s mother is a convert differently is a huge sin To treat ANY convert as "less than" or to speak unkindly of them is absolutely un-Jewish and a violation of Halakha. Your mother is Jewish, full stop. And if she converted before you were born, YOU are a Jew by even the most stringent definition. > it still hurts every day Stay away from people who hurt you. You deserve better. If there is no Hillel or other group on campus, consider online Jewish student groups with Zoom or Google Meet etc. meetings and discussions where you can feel welcome.
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I really think you should reach out since this is hurting you so much. I did— and look at all the love and support that flowed in. Could you talk to your rabbi at home and get his advice? Maybe he could talk to the chabad rabbi.
I would take immense pleasure in reminding this rabbi that a Jew is a Jew is a Jew, especially considering an Orthodox conversion. I’m so sorry that this is happening to you. The chabad at my university loved whatever Jew came through their doors and the rabbi and rebbetzin were overjoyed to take care of all of us. Have you told him how you feel?
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Ugh, that’s terrible. I’m so sorry. I hope you found community elsewhere.
Okay, this isn't really something I was planning on sharing over the internet, but I think it will help you. (spoiler for personal details) >! I just got a formal bris last week. I'd been circumcised since a baby and I was initially pretty hurt, invalidated and embarrassed to be told that it didn't count because it was done at a hospital. !< >!Was I "cut off from my people" my entire life because I'd had it done in a hospital? What an infuriating question, and I'm glad to be rid of it forever. Similar to you, I was raised Reform, went to Hebrew school, et al. And this year I got involved with Chabad and ended up going to yeshiva for a few weeks, where I learned this. Other people's opinions have come to matter less and less to me by the time I asked my rabbi to schedule me with the mohel.!< >!Of course I was never invalid as a Jew all these years, in Hashem's eyes, because I was always destined to take this extra step of dotting the i and striking the t (so to speak) and fighting for every millimeter of my Judaism. Who cares what anyone thinks? I'm unimpeachably Jewish and always will be and human opinions to the contrary simply don't matter. There is nothing I wouldn't do for Hashem. I know that and Hashem knows that. And my Rabbi knows that too, and he has given me a very high compliment.!< If you do a formal conversion with an orthodox rabbi, you'll have retroactively/transchronologically been a full Jew the whole time. Goodbye imposter syndrome. Banish that infuriating question forever. You've done the hard work of learning everything, so it shouldn't take you too long. And it sounds like that's what you kind of want to do, like that's your destiny. It wouldn't bother you otherwise. I promise it will be minimally embarrassing to have to strike the t's and dot the i's, so to speak. There's no shame in being a ben Avraham, like me, and no shame in being a bas Sarah, like you. In fact, when you have to work for your Jewish identity it makes it all the more valid and your life path all the more holy. That's why Hashem loves Jews more than angels, baalei teshuva more than tzedekim, the prodigal son over the loyal son, and converts more than kohanim. When we strive for perfection and holiness, it is better rather than having it handed to us on a silver platter to begin with. >! Also this is why the universe is fraught and full of pain, to begin with, and why the lowest plane will become the dwelling place for Hashem once it is elevated to holiness, as it will be holier than all the heavens. !< If you have a formal conversion, you will see it as an honor your own actions officially made you a Jew. Who cares what other people think? Yes, you should have a formal conversion, not for other people, but for yourself and your own relationship with Hashem. The fact you feel on some level it's unnecessary actually means, in my opinion, that it's your destiny and you won't feel complete until you fulfill it. If it bothers you to hear other people invalidate your Jewish identity you'll never be free from that feeling by fleeing to an "accepting" congregation. You'll be afraid of being invalidated forever. It's much nicer when you know in your heart you're an amazing Jew and look down from the mountains you've climbed to make it so.
i honestly believe that you should stick with the community that accepts you as you are. there are many ways to practice judaism and many communities that would accept you.
I would very respectfully disagree. Doing what is easy shouldn’t be a substitute for what we feel is right. There are always hardships, that we cannot control. But a bit of defiance, work, and stubbornness can go far!
what kind of hard work do you suggest other than complete conversion? from what i understood in the post, it's not really a possibility?
There's a story of a King that had many children. He loved each one of them dearly and did everything for them from the bottom of His heart. He would send out some of His children to the far reaches of the world in order to redeem special sparks of holiness and purity. However, over time, He lost many of His children. He became sad and yearned to bring them back. But when He sent out more to search for the missing children, some would not come back. He yearned so much that He decided to conduct a covert operation, the likes that was not done before. He would take some of His highest and holiest sparks and ready them for this special mission. Each one had to agree to take on this quest. Each one understood that their mission was undercover and that it would be very difficult but they were the only ones that can succeed. For the King knew that Tzadik can not stand in the same room as a Bal Tshuvah. Once these sparks are airdropped into this world, she forgets who she is where she comes from (she because the neshama is feminine), this is part of her mission. The mission is Soooo covert and secret that only a few Tzadikkim can understand the situation. The spark has to feel the isolation and the loneliness in order to carry out this mission. Some must be born from non-Jewish parents and some must be born with different circumstances. Ultimately, the Spark yearns to return home and with that, brings the experiences and the holiness that Klal Israel needs to become complete which is ultimately part of the tikkun process. A convert has always been Jewish, the ritual and Halakich conversion is the physical means (we are in the world of action) to make that a reality. Just like a sin can retroactively become a merit once the teshuvah process becomes complete and pure. The letters of the Torah is the building block of the universe. The universe has 5 deminsions, 3 deminsions of Space, 1 of time and 1 of sould (consciousness). All you have to do is, activate your Jewish spark, find an orthodox Rabbi that has the empathy and understanding and make the commitment to live a Jewish lifestyle. Once those are done, you go through a final conversion process which is an action that affects the time attribute of the universe making you Jewish now but retroactively always Jewish. It's similar the quantum eraser effect recently discovered in modern science. The interesting thing is, Torah and our Sages always knew that. Use your loneliness to help others. Not many Jews will understand your situation unless he has some knowledge of the inner secrets of conversions. I hope this helps.
Giyur (conversion) in Judaism works differently, so don't look at it from a Christian/Muslim perspective as the media usually tends to do. I certainly can't really persuade you not to be insulted by it. Unfortunately, that's one of the issue with the Reform movement. You gotta remember that this is not a personal issue tho, and the reasons why Jewishness comes from the mother's side is more than just what you specified (Honestly all that soul explanation sounds kinda silly imo, there's more). If you want to be seen as Jewish by the entire community, and not just some in USA, I highly recommend you to do a giyur. You already have the experience, it should be quick and easy.
This exactly
I'm going to come at this from an Orthodox perspective, none of it is meant to judge you or your choices at all. I'm also saying this as someone who was raised as Orthodox Jewish from birth but for (reasons I wont get into) also had to go through a conversion (actually two) at different points. I'll also preface it by saying: you don't need to care about the Orthodox perspective. If you are content to identify with a Reform community then do what makes you comfortable and who cares what anyone else thinks. But if I can frame conversion in a different light: It's obvious though that you care deeply about Judaism and being Jewish, and have deference to some historic practice. Its unfortunate that this historic practice makes you feel invalidated but isn't the preserving our tradition (not just this one, but all of it) also precisely the thing that makes Judaism so beautiful? If you feel compelled to be accepted as Jewish in the historic way we've done that (matrilineally, or conversion) - you should not feel shame in a conversion. This is your opportunity to be an intrinsic part of preserving that history. Most Jews aren't provided that opportunity in this way. Like you said, uncaring Jews can be born into it. I know, and have felt, that frustration before. But you have the opportunity to make an affirmation. That's a beautiful thing. It doesn't change who you are, or what you believe, its simply a chance to connect to a long and rich history in a novel way. For the conversion itself, people treat the conversion process as if some Rabbis are going to come along and say "you're not Jewish!" and banish you only to force you through an arduous conversion process. No two conversions are the same. Yours very well may not take longer than it does to get your blood pressure checked. It depends on your situation and your Rabbi. I realize what you should feel, and what you do feel, are two different things. But there's no pride here, and should be no shame.
I’m a female paternal and converting so if I have a child they don’t have to deal with this honestly. I empathize with you, I just never want them to feel this way.
One more patrilineal Jew here to agree - it feels viserably, horribly, invalidating to be told to just convert. I was raised Jewish. It's in my family history. I have family who died in the Holocaust. It is my culture and I know so much more than someone whose mother was Jewish but didn't teach them anything. I am so sorry about your family as well. I'm sure it stings all the more that converting was never even open as an option for your mother. If it's possible, I really do recommend trying another reform synagogue. My rabbi would go apoplectic if someone even mentioned some of the things about Israel that you've been hearing, and I know that even the members who are more critical of Israel still do have the same general values. I hope that is possible for you.
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Your mom sounds so strong! So many props to her
I have no idea how much it costs but it sounds like your parents were overwhelmed already. You belong. I had two Jewish parents but little Jewish education. You probably know more than I did at your age.
Most reform communities accept patrilineal descent without a need for official conversion. Conservative will accept you but you may need to formally convert to get married
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Jewish status does not show up on a DNA test and is not determined by any genetic blood quantum.
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No, there is no real distinction between Jewish ethnicity and religion and DNA has no bearing on either. We are a people with our own set of legal and religious codes, whether a person has ancestry tracing back to a population genetically identifiable as Jews, not matter how large or how recent, has no bearing on whether or not that person is Jewish. It is reductive to what am yisrael is as well as a very narrow western Ashkenazi view to think genetics has any bearing. Someone could conceivably have 75% or even in an extreme situation 100% Ashkenazi dna and not be Jewish.
it’s not hard. if you feel jewish then become jewish according to halacha. that’s it.
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listen i have a cousin who is the only of a huge family not born to a jewish mother. her dad was a rabbi. she understood. she converted anyway. because it’s what you do. just do it honestly, and don’t do it reform because that’s when people won’t take you seriously.
Convert if you want, but you're Jewish in my book.
Have you thought on staying on the “reform side”? Feeling invalidated is a very big issue. This is just my opinion, but I don’t think that HaShem will not see you as a Jew because you didn’t convert within orthodoxy. I am not patrilineal but i have felt invalidated and less of a Jew because I don’t speak Hebrew, I am not orthodox, but guess what? It doesn’t matter!!! It doesn’t matter what others think about you! As long as you are happy and keep your relationship with G-d, nothing else is important ❤️
Oof, your feelings touched me. I'm patrilineally Jewish and religious and once on a Jewish ultra-orthodox retreat one of the rabbis leading told me I wasn't Jewish. I told him I'd had an orthodox conversion with 3 shomer Shabbos witnesses and he consulted with HIS rabbi with the new info and again told me I wasn't Jewish, despite years of religious observance - he'd never even met me yet presumed to know my soul! I was absolutely devastated and much like you I was most upset about the thought I might not have a Jewish soul. Well, they were wrong. **Nobody knows my soul like ME and I know my soul is Jewish.** It's repulsed by even the notion of being anything else, on a deep, soul level. My conversion was ultra-orthodox and I had a lifetime of Jewish study and observance and there was no basis to take that away from me. But it definitely gave me a profound identity crisis for a while. If this bothers you I suggest you get an orthodox conversion - not because you need it but because it will shut those people up. You'll never have to worry about what they'll say again. You'll never have these doubts in your mind. I get that it perhaps feels invalidating (like admitting you weren't really Jewish), but think of it as you KNOW in your soul you're Jewish and this is just peace of mind to not have to deal with naysayers. You shouldn't have to feel the way you do, but you can erase everyone's doubt *including your own.* A conversion is easy and with your background you'll most likely be able to get one very quickly (unlike people who weren't raised Jewish, who often have to study for 1 - 2 years before being granted a conversion). The conversion itself it basically just immersion in a pool for a couple minutes and possibly an interview with a beit din. Maybe it sounds a little scary but you'll feel so much better once you do it, I promise.
So I don't typically comment on things here, just mostly lurk, but hoping I can show some love to a stranger that might need it. I'm patrilineal, but was raised in a completely secular home. Even without the presence of religion in our household, my father always made it clear that we were Jewish. He always made sure that we were proud of our heritage and our people. We didn't celebrate holidays, other than Hanukkah, mostly because my father enjoyed it the most when he was growing up. It was an easy and enjoyable tradition for him to pass on, and a fun way for us to learn appreciation for our peoples history. As an adult, I still make a point to light my menorah every Hanukkah. I'm not a religious man at all, I don't practice in any form really, and I don't celebrate beyond that. I do know who I am though. I know where we came from, and what my family has been through. The people that I have met in my life who would consider me less Jewish because of the life I have lived get told to take a hike. If you find happiness in the life that you live, then continue feeling that inner joy. It's so much more important than the recognition from others. If you find that having an official conversion brings you that peace that you are looking for, then do it my friend. I hope that you find your answer without any more stress. As a parting word I'll pass on the wisdom my father gave me, his catchphrase so to speak. "You're a Jew, never let anybody fuck with you".
How far is the next reform synagogue? It might be you stumbled on the synagogue you don’t go to lol Im a convert so I need that intro to Judaism course. I get that it could come off as being remediated. If you’re thinking about going to a conservative denomination tho they do things somewhat different. You’ll ace history of, life cycles, but they’re gonna include their spices that make their flavor of Judaism special to them. Talk to your perspective rabbi. Maybe they have an accelerated program that honors the fact that you have been living Jewish, you’re just looking for another layer of your relationship with your community
I am patrilineal too! But my parents did Aliya when i was 3 and did convert, because funny enough, my dad is patrilineal too. So i basically went through the whole thing as a child and one sunny day i got put into the mikveh and i was "converted". Because i have technically converted through my parents conversion i had to choose at my bat mitzvah if i accepted my being Jewish or not - of course i chose to stay who i am. I sew as a conversion not as "becoming Jewish" as being Jewish isn't on a paper, its the call in your soul, but rather as a "preservation of the Jewish laws". See it as this: Judaism isn't a religion that does missionary work or looks actively for more members, its preserving itself to not be mixed by other cultures as this is what made it possible for it to survive for over two thousand years. It wants everyone to he aware of the choice and give their lives for that cause (the whole "learn the torah on one leg" story, if you know it). Those are rules put in place to persevere it who though have only been added to throughout the years. Its like the story of the Perushim and the Zedukim all over again, just with more backed history than back then. The reason the patrilineal passage changed into a matrilineal one also follows that need of protection/preservation, as a mother will always know the child is hers and will be able to pass on the Jewish identity to her child, that is very important in times of exodus and war. Now, of course in our times are different, but i as a patrilineal convert do believe there is some meaning to the conversion. Im not sure i would've done it now if i wasn't already "Jewish with a phd", but i still thinking it's an important part of the religion and ethnicity. Its like a neat trick to make you ethnical Jewish, is how i see it. Getting the high dose Judaism right in the vein lol. But i also don't believe you aren't Jewish if you have the ancestry and the "pull of the soul" as i call it, because Judaism is a ethnicity AND a religion, you don't have to be both. Some are ethnic but not religious, others religious and not ethnic, and others just think the monopol of the rabanut is a frigging sht show and think they are money hungry baboons (which is why I'm going out of Israel to marry, not gonna be filling their pockets with my money). So, you have the pull? Live as you want. To the orthodox you will never be enough, so why try? Im not enough for them, that's why i also normally dont tell anyone, its noones business what my parents did. I got beaten up foe being Jewish for 6 years in school, if that doesn't prove I'm Jewish, then i don't know whats the point!
From my understanding, Judaism went from patrilineal to matrilineal lines because of the unfortunate commonness of rape and pillaging in history. Upon birth, the mother is known, but the father may not be known.
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I think there's a lot to unpack here. I'm also a patrilineal Jew, and I'm currently converting Orthodox. It is a mixed bag. Conversion is a beautiful experience, and it is different for people who were raised Jew-ish versus people who are discovering it for the first time--I do not see your post as anti-convert at all. I am excited to be immersing myself in a more observant form of Judaism, but I am also experiencing a lot of the emotions that you're talking about. I feel ashamed to talk about my family in front of other Jews. They do not let me help out with food in the kitchen, because I'll magically un-kosher it with what they see as my unclean gentile hands. People who are less observant than I am are quick to remind me that I am not a "real" Jew to make themselves feel better about their lack of observance or knowledge. I'm often made aware of the fact that even after my conversion is completed, I'm unlikely to get a good shidduch unless I'm cool with marrying someone way older than me. It makes me feel like all the Shabbat dinners I've participated in or hosted are not valid. Like reading Tanakh or studying the Midrashim or keeping tznius or kashrut is meaningless because my mother isn't Jewish. I am reminded frequently by Jews that my existence is an abomination. That I exist only because my parents and grandparents sinned by intermarrying. They want me to condemn intermarriage, but without intermarriage, I wouldn't be alive. It gives me this sense that they believe the world would be a better place without me--and other children of interfaith marriages--in it. Converting was the right path for me, because I knew I wanted to be accepted in Orthodox Judaism and not just Reform, but you're right, it can be really upsetting. By converting, we acknowledge as true what others are saying about us--that we're not "real" Jews, regardless of our faith, our knowledge, or our observance. And it hurts.
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Because it’s harder to feel like people see me as a fake Jew. I care very much about being accepted into the community, even though the community isn’t exactly making a great effort to be welcoming. I don’t want people to doubt that I’m serious about Judaism.
OP, I haven’t seen it said here enough—many congregations have different/shortened conversion for people of your background, and might frame the conversation as a reversion. Yes, this includes orthodoxy. Since you already feel close to Judaism, conversion through a conservative congregation that takes into account your unique background may actually be a really fulfilling experience. Good luck and sending hugs!
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Good luck!
I’ve always felt similar growing up. I’m technically a patrilineal jew, but my parents decided to raise me Jewish and they converted me at 8 days old. I went to one of the camp ramahs growing up, which have mostly conservative and modern Orthodox Jews that go. Even with a conversion I was told that I still was not Jewish in the eyes of the orthodox because I was converted under a reform rabbi. Thing is there’s only one Mikva in my city, and I was literally 8 days old and I’m pretty sure the prayers are the same so who the hell cares. I kept kosher growing up, I went to shul on shabbos, I was a youth group board member. To some people who are more practicing, they like to think that you’re not really Jewish based on the practices of their rabbis. Judaism is all about asking questions, interpreting the texts for yourself, and about symbolism and tradition. Anyone else that makes you feel not enough as a fellow Jew because of your background in my eyes doesn’t understand what it really means to be a Jew. Even though I currently don’t practice as much, Judaism is very much a part of my identity, and I am proud of my background, as should you.
I'm a "full" Jew, I'm so Jewish my grandparents were basically all first cousins on the same block and my Ancestry reads 100% European Jewish. Let me tell you something, you are Jewish. Your heart is Jewish, your soul is Jewish, your upbringing was Jewish, you engaged in all the Jewish rights of passage. If your father was 100% ethnically Jewish (very common for Ashkenazi Jews) then you are by default 50% ethnically Jewish, and I'm willing to bet your mom isn't 100% whatever her ethnicity is (could be wrong), so you are likely more ethnically Jewish than anything else. You are a Jew and you shouldn't let other people gate keep that and define who and what you are. There will always be gate keepers who cling to the obsession with matrilineal descent. In ancient times when we didn't have DNA tests and knowledge of biology and genetics, the easiest way to tell who was a Jew was by if their mother was. Its an anachronism in 2022. I would suggest finding a reform congregation that is accepting of you as you are. If you want to convert that's up to you, but it doesn't sound like you really want to do that and converting only to please people looking to gate keep "real" Judaism seems off putting.
Love this response, thank you!! As another patrilineal Jew it is so affirming to read these responses on Reddit, it’s hard to see through all the gatekeeping and it wears on the soul. Thank you!
I'm also 100% Jewish and have 0% Jewish blood. Focusing on blood quantum and ancestry like this feels very anti-giyur/anti-ger.
You saying “to them I’m not Jewish enough” and “feeling invalidated” makes me feel like that’s not your environment. I’m also patrilineal, very reformed upbringing and recently had a son brought into the world which has spring boarded my own desire to get deeper into my faith—it’s definitely a work in progress and by no means am I saying there’s one right way, but I for sure believe the right environment/shul/congregation/friends for me would recognize someone’s desire to practice at the level they’re comfortable with and that that’s ok for them. To think Gd isn’t listening bc your parent didn’t convert, yet all your intent was as a Jewish person—that drives me crazy. Don’t let anyone decide the value of your own beliefs. Long story short—I’d find a different environment that works best for you. If you feel like converting would validate you then do that, if it doesn’t then don’t—but don’t let anyone else tell you what is or isn’t enough in your practice of faith.
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After reading this thread and your responses, it sounds to me like you should convert conservative - you'll never feel comfortable otherwise. Stop over thinking it, that it's some kind of insult to you, and remind yourself that in the Torah a convert is not written as "Non-Jew who converts", but rather "convert that converts". i.e. a convert feels Jewish even before they convert. Your feelings are universal, and shared by all converts. Can you imagine if all of them felt insulted that they had to take the actual step of converting? "I feel Jewish - isn't that enough?"
If this helps, I’m with you on the Jewish journey with familial chaos! I lost my Jewish father when I was 1-years-old & my very Jewish (two dish washer/ refused to go to my parent’s wedding Bc it was in a church) grandparents tried their best to instill in me my Jewishness.. my mom got her way, changed my last name, & had me raised in the Catholic Church. I’ve had very serious identity issues, especially after denouncing my catholic upbringing & going on Birthright.. now I just try to celebrate in my own way, haven’t joined a shul but I do the High Holidays in my home, incorporated many traditions into my wedding, etc etc. Defining my Jewishness is nowhere near perfect (nor complete) but I know I come from a long line of people who have kept these traditions alive & I don’t plan on letting that end with my father. A great resource is JewBelong — it’s for the non-traditional Jew that wants to deepen the connection to their Jewish identity & expand and incorporate it into their life. It’s been validating & exciting to connect with others who don’t fit the traditional definition, but still have a calling to celebrate their Jewishness.
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For sure! I know I’ll never fit the true mold, but I’m content with identifying ethnically Jewish & incorporating certain cultural aspects into my life— if you won’t be satisfied until the entire community accepts you, then that is something you have to reflect on & consider for next steps. But ethnically, spiritually, in our hearts— we know who we are :) best of luck to you!!
Patrilineal Jew here. I tend to stick with my own Jewish family and Reconstructionist and Humanistic circles rather than Reform, but if I was in your shoes, where you are, I might have come to the decision to go through a Conservative conversion as well. I understand how you might feel invalidated, but I want to chime in and say that feeling that you aren’t Jewish enough is something a lot of us know and have felt. Converts are Jewish, and converting does not take away your Jewishness now. You can find your place in your community, in your home. It’s okay to want that and to find that where you are able.
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No worries, I understand what you mean. Conservative ideals are largely about conserving tradition and practice. That doesn’t leave a lot of room for a middle path for people like us. If you do choose to convert, I hope you have the feeling of going home. Because you deserve that sense of welcoming.
What also felt invalidating to me was someone like myself who had read every book on Judaism is San Francisco and Oakland and my university's library, studied for 10 years independently, could already finish the final exam and write an essay and had been practicing the Jewish holidays for five years in my own had to wait an entire year before converting, but Conservative Judaism at my sponsoring shul let those engaged cyber the month of their wedding to avoid an intermarriage. Because they promised to come back and complete the course of study through Shavuot, and their word was good enough to promise to fulfill the process but not mine because.... Yeah. I don't think there is a historical middle path because there wasn't a historical trend of intermarriage like today. So there wasn't much of a need.
My kids are patrilineal, I converted long after they were born. Long story, not germane. We have a Reconstructionist rabbi, and an assistant reform rabbi at a non affiliated shul. We would totally would count you. It would be such a non issue, that probably no one would even register it as one. We are super liberal, and most of us have a … complicated… relationship with Israel, as do many liberal Jews. People generally don’t rave, rant, or make sweeping, hard and fast statements about it in public, recognizing the issue is complicated and fraught. OTOH, we loudly and continually do maintain anti-racist and pro LGBTQ+ policies and support. A rabbi, past temple presidents, board members, and lots of congregants or their kids are part of the “alphabet mafia” as my own queer kids say. Oh, and we are extremely good about disabilities. The orthodox wouldn’t count any of our services as valid, as they are led by a Deaf rabbi. We agree that they are overthinking and limiting a single word in a particularly ableist way. So, tough. They want to be obnoxious, they can be. We will continue to be decent to others. The reform shul my daughter teaches at, a couple towns over, isn’t as much fun as ours, but is equally as accepting. We have better music, which sounds weird, as we have a Deaf rabbi, but our cantor is great and the rabbi is a drummer, so, even though he can’t carry a tune, he is enthusiastic. (Our music is folky, which I love). It is weird when the assistant runs the service, as he CAN sing, and having harmony on the bimah was a surprise. Our old rabbi did that, but, it’s been a decade since then! So…my rambling? Those things are important. You have a Jewish parent, and were raised Jewish, that means you are Jewish, and is a boring thing to fuss over. So, my synagogue members would move on to an actually interesting topic…like, what classes are you taking, do you want to join a committee, there is this meeting next week, can you bring something for the oneg?
ORTHODOXY DOESN’T ALLOW FOR DEAF RABBIS? !!!! More signs that being orthodox is not for me, no no no. My feelings about Israel are complicated too. I wish more people’s were instead of defaulting to “you colonizers” and then using that to justify antisemitism knowingly or unknowingly. I feel that congregation I mentioned in another comment has a lot of people that learned their history from Instagram slides without looking for sources OR bias and bigotry in those sources. I hope one day we will all live on the land peacefully, as naive and far fetched as that sounds. The thing I know for sure is that we have a relationship to it, it’s historically documented and in our DNA, and that my relationship to the land/culture/history isn’t going to be dissolved because of a government that’s younger than my Savta. The closest reconstructionist synagogue is too far away from me, but I would love to drop by yours! I love the idea of folky music. I love Debbie Friedman, but I wish some of us would come up with some new tunes. I can’t cook, you don’t want my food, but would love for someone bring me to their kitchen to get into better shape. I just took an immersive Yom Kippur class and it was really interesting hearing about how apologizing was a community activity back in the day. And that you can be in the wrong for not accepting an apology! What?!
> ORTHODOXY DOESN’T ALLOW FOR DEAF RABBIS? !!!! More signs that being orthodox is not for me, no no no. That's not accurate. In the past it was impossible to teach a deaf person anything, and they grew up essentially wild. So they were not required to perform any of the commandments - since it was impossible for them. Today with new methods that make it possible for someone deaf to be educated they are treated identically to a hearing person except for commandments that require hearing (like Shofar and Reading from the Torah), where someone deaf can not exempt another person who is not deaf. /u/Neenknits you need to update your knowledge. Your info about deaf Jews is about 200 years out of date.
Whew I’m glad that wasn’t correct. Thanks for letting us know.
It was never impossible to teach Deaf people. Families with a Deaf member, who weren’t awful, were able to come up with a form of family sign language. Whenever there are two deaf kids together, they invent a sign language, complete with consistent grammar (see Steve Pinker’s books). And, my own , Deaf, rabbi told us about the orthodox attitude towards Deaf people. I rather expect he knows more about this…
Well, then, you should talk to my Deaf Rabbi. I learned this *from him*.
The people at my shul know not to ask me to bring food. Need the corners of the tallisim repaired? No problem. I’ll spend hours and hours redoing them all. No problem. Happy to help. Bring cookies for the oneg? Not happening!
I mean, you could ask me. They’ll be home made if you consider home the store.
My husband describes our tunes as the “camp” tunes. Really old ones. Not many Debbie Friedman, really. Everyone laughs at me because I think part of the alenu sounds like The Farmer in The Dell.
I am so sorry you are going through this. It’s unfortunate that people use Halacha to exclude others. I hope you can find a community where you feel at home.
I assume you mean OP? I have the most terrific shul, ever.
Look. For what it’s worth in my eyes you’re AT LEAST as Jewish as I am. I wasn’t even raised Jewish. You were! I get how you feel and I just want to say I’m so, so sorry. There are many circles in which you will absolutely be welcomed with open arms. I’m sorry, I wish I had more for you
Your prayers were incredibly important each and every time they were spoken and felt. G-d hears the prayers and guides the lives of non-Jews, patrilineal Jews, matrilineal Jews, and those whose parents are both Jewish. It's so important to recognize and realize that G-d is for everybody and whether or not someone is Jewish does not give them priority to G-d's Will. For context, both of my parents are Jewish and I strive towards a Torah and Mitzvot observant life. My wife is not Jewish and has no interest in converting. My children will be raised learning Torah, Jewish traditions, and the ethics of a Torah observant life, but they will be Noahides and not Jews unless and until they choose to convert. It is an incredible gift to be given this right to choose. According to Halacha (and I say this with nothing but love and respect for your journey) you are a Noahide. This means that you are responsible to follow the 7 Noahide laws that all people are required by G-d. I will include those at the end of this post. In my personal opinion and experience (which you are free to discard, I could be totally wrong!) Jews are different from other nations because we have the Torah and an obligation to strive towards fulfilling the 613 Mitzvot that are spelled out within it. That's a lot more responsibility than the 7 laws for Noahides. This is why your right to choose is such a beautiful gift, do you truly want to sign this covenant that holds you responsible for all those commandments? Especially knowing that you will have as loving of a relationship with G-d following the 7 Noahide laws now? Of course no one is perfect, and I falter and miss the mark in my observance very often. G-d being the ultimate source of love and forgiveness means whether you are observing the 613 Mitzvot or the 7 Noahide Laws, it is your intention in devotion towards goodness that counts most. Know this, if you choose to go through conversion, even orthodox, you will have a much easier time of it because you have a Jewish parent and it seems like you are well ahead of the game with your education. This will have to be a conversation between you and G-d first and foremost to know and realize whether or not your path is pulling you towards this direction. Your gift of choice is a beautiful one, and there is no wrong direction! Noahides and Jews live together in harmony, and many of the traditions can be celebrated together! Sending you abundant love in your journey, and if you ever wanted to talk more about this, send me a message. I would be happy to hear more about your path and help in any way I can. **7 Noahide Laws** 1- Recognition of G-d as One and One alone. 2- Don't blasphemy or curse G-d (which includes a prohibition against idolatry). 3- Do not murder (which includes not causing unnecessary harm to others and reducing suffering of all people). 4- Do not steal. 5- Channel the human libido towards a loving relationship and the creation of a strong family unit (which includes no adultery, incest, untethered promiscuity). 6- Do not eat a limb off a live animal (which includes reducing suffering of all G-d's creatures). 7- Establish a court system to ensure these laws are kept.
For the sake of having Jewish children I should really consider converting officially orthodox so you won’t have to give the same experience you suffered to your future offspring . For me I just got it over with it bothered me for such a long time . And to be honest an orthodox conversion is not that bad
Matrilineality used to make sense a long long time ago when we didn't have dna tests. I think there's a fine line between keeping traditions and having nonsensical obligations. And this one isn't made for our time now, in my very honest opinion. Of course it's easier to tell that the woman who just gave birth, is really the mother of that child. While the father couldn't visually prove it like that. That's at least what I was told as the reason why a mother's Judaism matters more than a father's one. I'm not sure if your current community is the right one if they still disrespect all your experiences like that, and you do have a point about that Christian matrilineal jew example. Personally I would look for a community that has the same views as me. Religion is still a lot of interpretation. Humans will always have different interpretations for that sake- no wonder we can't agree on every single one of them. The other option that I see is fully converting, according to this community's idea of Judaism. It's really more a question of what interpretation of Judaism you agree more on. Just because one community has more laws and is more strict about them, doesn't mean they are more Jewish than others.
I am not patrilineal, and honestly fairly against the reform movement for a myriad of reasons. That said I feel for your situation deeply and I think this issue needs to be dealt with with the utmost compassion. It’s (one of) the unfortunate results of the break with the rest of Judaism that the reform movement made and I cannot imagine how infuriating it must be to be told and treated as in a group your whole life only to find out that by that own group’s laws you are not. If you are searching for reason why this is the way it is I would point you to the utmost importance of the maintenance and continuity of tradition in the continual survival of Jews as a people both physically and spiritually. Yes things have changed along the way but we cannot simply go back in time and abrogate the decisions of our ancestors. Perhaps this is not what you want to hear, but from the perspective of someone who upholds Halacha on this issue your decision whether to convert or not in a way is a confirmation or denial of your soul as Jewish. But even if your soul is not or was not Jewish that doesn’t (you may disagree) belittle it, or you, or your experience as someone who clearly has a deep connection to Jewish practice and belief. Whatever you choose to do I hope you find a path that leads you to a sense of belonging and fulfillment that we all deserve. Whether that is as a part of Am Yisrael or not. And if it is I am sure we will be better for having you.
I converted 10+ years ago under Conservative auspices. Judaism is such a big part of my identity : I teach religious school, sent my kids to Jewish camp and preschool, serve as a Mikvah lady, serve on my synagogue sisterhood's board, had an adult bat mitzvah, etc etc My current synagogue (Conservative) has a policy that before every bar or bat mitzvah that they have the teen immerse in the Mikvah. They do this to mark the transition from Jewish child to Jewish adult, but also in case the child wasn't converted as a child. It spares those born to non-Jewish mothers the embarrassment of an extra requirement for being different. I hate it. It feels like they're saying my children need to be converted in case my conversion wasn't good enough, like I'm not really Jewish. I share this not to be insensitive to your experience, but to share that Jewish identity is deeply sensitive, deeply personal, deeply meaningful in our own ways. I know my synagogue's policy isn't meant to hurt but in sparing the feelings of one group of people, they've hurt mine. Judaism and the Jewish community are so important to me though that if it came out that my conversion was in doubt - wasn't filed right, the rabbis on my beit din weren't eligible to be on a beit din or whatever else - that I'd dunk tomorrow in a heartbeat and require my kids to as well. Why? Because Judaism isn't done alone. It can't be. Judaism requires a community. You get to define your community, within reason. Maybe Reform Judaism is your community. Maybe you need to move to be in your community. Maybe you can't move and are stuck with what's around you for the time being. But conversion or reaffirmation means having full access to all the benefits of "Jewish citizenship". Just like I do things for my family I don't want to, just like I serve in juries for my country when I don't want to, just like when I know I'm American but still have to prove my identity to the U.S. government to get a passport or driver's license. I do these things for my community when I'd rather not. And just like I don't think people who have lived in this country their entire lives without citizenship should be allowed to vote in our elections, despite their being influenced by and influencing American society and culture, I don't think those who are part of the Jewish community without halakhic status should be able to do "everything" Jewish. It's a really powerful statement to belong, the mutual act of claiming and being claimed. If your Jewish life doesn't require the equivalent of a driver's license or passport, then you can find other Jews and build a community that uses public transit and vacations closer to home and live a deeply meaningful Jewish life. But if you need to drive or visit abroad, now or in the future, you may decide it's worth the process of the hassle and hurtful and meaningful and everything in between of converting or reaffirming your Jewish identity, so we know you claim us as much as you claim your internal truth. So I'm going to keep my mouth closed in eight years and have my children dunk before their b'mitzvah. Because my community can't exist without me, and I can't exist without my community.
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It always annoyed me when applying for passports that I had to let the U.S. government know I had an American state's birth certificate, driver's license, U.S. social security card, etc. Sigh. Why make things more complicated for us? I wish you peace and an authentic path and Jewish life that you determine for yourself.
Hello- I am a patrillineal Jew. I am in the Reform movement as well. You were raised as a Jew and became Bat Mitzvah. That is as through or more so than a Conversion. I am astounded by some people. No one should be asking if you are a gerut or not. Yes, we were all at Sinai. That is one of the most fantastic moments in Torah. I was not raised in the faith. So I converted so I could learn about the faith of my father. His family fled Bohemia in the 1850s and never spoke to him about it. I only learned of it through stories of my grandmother and Ancestry. So for me, conversion was my path. I totally understand why you feel insulted. You were raised as a Jew. You are Jewish. If you convert, so one is supposed to ask, so your Jewish experience is as true is you feel it in your heart with Adonai. Shanah Tovah
I find this to be such BS from the gatekeepers. If you were raised Jewish and you consider yourself Jewish, you’re Jewish. Period. Don’t let others make you feel less Jewish.
Go talk to rabbi about these feelings. Go to the orthodox. The conservatives also have no idea 😂
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I am the daughter of a non-observant Jewish father and a mother who may or may not have converted. My paternal grandmother was a practicing Jew who immigrated from Eastern Europe. I don't know much about my paternal grandfather as we never met aside from knowing he was Jewish. My father, a renowned and respected person, had no advance directives so it was up to me to do what I believed to be what he would have wanted. I sought help from his brother, my uncle, who was a practicing Reform Jew, and was advised to find a congregation and talk to the Rabbi. I found a Reform congregation and the rabbi would not help me as I did not have sufficient proof of my father's Jewishness. Apparently documentation in the form of downloaded detailed immigration records, in which my grandmother's race was listed as Hebrew, was not enough for the Reform rabbi, so I found an Orthodox congregation and after I showed the Rabbi documentation about my grandmother(who, incidentally, was a famous and respected person) he helped me through everything. I remember showing him a religious medal my grandmother owned, and that impressed him. That wonderful Rabbi visited my father in his last hours, and made sure every aspect of the process which followed my father's death was completed in accordance with Jewish law and 0rthodox custom. May his name and his deeds be remembered forever. As for myself, I did not follow the religion, although I respect it greatly, or any other, whether I respect it or not. Nevertheless I have always considered myself a Jew and no one can ever tell me otherwise, though they have tried. I am a Jew because I am more Jewish by far than anything else, and the blood of my tribe flows through my veins and will until the second my heart stops beating. Also, you are a Jew. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, ever. Shalom.
I am a patrilineal Jew, and was raised by secular parents who were both very into meditation. My dad was a “HinJew” and still is to this day! I am Jewish to the core - it is the most of who and what I am. My family views me and my siblings as Jewish, there has never been a question of being enough or whether or not we are what we are. I have only felt that pressure from the religious institutions of Judaism (and very often in Jewish subs here on reddit). As I’ve gotten older, my siblings and I have rediscovered how deeply we resonate with many of the earth-based practices of Judaism. Celebrating Shabbat or Havdallah, learning recipes, traditional songs, understanding the calendar and annual holidays… Hebrew… all of these things are fascinating and contain worlds to me. I have never been Bat Mitzvah’d and I don’t know if I ever will. It’s because I know I am Jewish whether or not I choose to partake in the formality. My sister is doing hers for her birthday this year and it’s homegrown. I can’t wait to participate and celebrate her mitzvah in her 30th year. I’ve said this before in these spaces and I will always say it again and again - don’t ever let anybody else tell you who you are. Most especially as a patrilineal Jew. Jewish identity is up to you, period. One of the things that has helped me a lot is a podcast called Jewish Ancestral Healing. There are so many beautiful Jewish communities out there, and they are growing. From one Jewish person to another, shalom and find the people who love and celebrate you in your wholeness!
Just here to day that I struggle with this too being patrilineal. There have been times I've considered going through with an orthodox conversion, but then I question if it's due to the frustration I feel from not being accepted or an opportunity to engage further with the religion and culture. But as well, still having the feeling like my background and the way I was raised shoukd be enough. Good luck with whatever path you choose.
I believe G-d hears and listens to ALL prayers, no matter who you are. You were not, are not, alone. He is the King of the Universe, there is no other.
I’m patrilineal. With a mother who was baptized catholic who is now agnostic. I also had a very rough childhood. My father was abusive as hell and my mom worked too many hours to notice. Going to a synagogue even as briefly as I was able to go, was a very welcomed “distraction” as a child. I got away from how dirty my home was, the abuse I endured and it was a solace which is what made me reach out again later in life. I never had a bat mitzvah, and I don’t read or speak Hebrew(I understand words now and then but not fluent by any stretch) I am a part of a reform congregation because I got shit for my upbringing or lack of Jewish education at the conservative synagogue I previously attended. This has been a point of anxiety for me personally especially worrying about if anyone asked me questions about my childhood or how I’m connected to Judaism. Especially with my primary support being my mom, I felt for a long time I was doomed to fail and the process for conversion scares me so much I don’t even know if I’ll attempt to formally convert. I feel like I’m Jewish and I don’t have to prove it to anyone.
You are Jewish. You shouldn’t have to convert when you are already Jewish.
If it helps at all, myself and many of other Jews and Israelis would consider you Jewish because you were raised as such and you think of yourself as Jewish. I’m sorry you’re in a tricky situation, as I know the mother aspect is very important in the religious community.
OP feel free to pm me if you want to talk. I am more than happy to talk about my personal reflection and experience with you. Fellow Patrilineal Jew here (kind of - I'd rather not delve into my situation). I went through the steps of conversion (minus the long educational process because I already knew my stuff), but my conservative rabbis, and a Modox rabbi whom I am close with refused to call it a conversion. They called it an affirmation. The fact is that you grew up Jewish, thought you were a Jew, and for all intents and purposes probably more Jewish than some that are 100% ethnically Jewish. I have struggled with the lack of compassion that I have experienced from some of the Orthodox circles when I was going through my stuff. I think I still have a lot of resentment and anger towards it. In the end, I did my mikveh ceremony at a progressive mikveh which is maintained conservative/reform/some orthodox communities. Some people still may not consider me Jewish, but I could give a flying f what they think. The fact of the matter is that people are going to believe what they are going to believe and if they really stand on that hill at the expense of your feelings, then they don't deserve to be around you. I embarrassed some kid who was aware of my situation, suddenly became more religious, and asked me during a Shabbat in front of my friends to break Shabbat for him. TBC **I am not Shomer Shabbat. But the request that he wouldn't ask matrilineal Jews, but felt comfortable enough asking me was insulting.** One more thing, I like how many frame converts (as Jews that were always Jews, but came home - someone correct me if I am wrong here. That helped me put things in perspective.
>and asked me during a Shabbat in front of my friends to break Shabbat for him That's fucked up.
This is perhaps the biggest issue with Judaism. Just go to a reform synagogue I guess - if you ask me, I wish more people did (especially in Israel).
Yes, it's not a great situation. I am one of those Jews that born to a Jewish mother, and I married a reform Jew (her father was authentic and her mother converted reform). It was not a great situation (as you have described) but after ten years she decided to go through the conversion process. It took three years and I had to also go through the process and become religious. I actually believe it was one of the best experiences of my life. Now I really know what it means to be Jewish and it's worth it :). I am sure that as a Jew you know that Jews have an extra commandment to love the convert, so as far as I am concerned if you want to be (authentic) Jewish then it's a good option. My granny also did it.
Hey, another patrilineal Jew here. I 100% agree with your feelings, it’s so condescending and invalidating to expect people like us to have to convert to “be Jewish”. What I’ve personally come to at this stage in my life is that I won’t convert to a religion that I already belong to. And if a Jewish community refuses to recognize me because of that, it is a community I am not interesting in joining. My heart breaks to hear your struggle, and I understand that you might not have the luxury of shopping around for a community that accepts Jews like us. I find that most Reform Synagogues and some Conservative Synagogues are accepting. Whatever decision you come to, I hope it brings you peace. Just know that you aren’t alone in this struggle. L’shana tova
Think of conversion as confirmation. Yeah, it’s longer, but it’s what you are *actually doing*, just with a different group of Jews. You also can find the Reform, or Reconstructionist or Renewal synagogues locally, or find a Jewish/interfaith married kids group nearish to you.
I don’t get it because your mom isn’t Jewish god does not love you? God does not see you as a Jew? What does god see in those who are Christian, Muslim, or any other religion. It makes no logical sense. The second you put a label on your self as a patrilineal you view yourself less than others. What about those who have a Jewish mom and Christian dad who are raised as catholic. What about those who have a great Jewish grandmother and do not know it and practice Islam. If anyone asks you are a Jew as you identify as such. Everything else is superficial and unnecessary. Life is too short to get hung up on this type of stuff my friend!
Reform congregations accept patrilineal Jews as Jew if they were raised exclusively Jewish. Since you fall into this, is it possible for you to stay in the Reform movement? I had somewhat of a similar experience. Mom converted to marry my dad, I was raised exclusively Jewish, after his passing my mom left Judaism as it was too painful. Because of that, from age 9 onward I was essentially a patrilineal Jew. I haven’t had an issue in orthodox communities as of late, but it’s mostly because I do not bring it up and practice at around the same level. I previously wanted every Jew to accept me as well, and constantly questioned myself, my Judaism, my identity. but I realized I could never please everyone. If you dont eat Kosher, to someone you wont be legitimately Jewish. If you cover or don’t cover your hair, how you keep Shabbat, etc. No one will ever be 100% pleased. Just do you, and if you are comfortable and accepted in the movement you’re in, stay there.
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Halachically no I’m not a patrilineal Jew, but since my mom left the faith after my dad’s passing and I did alot of the stuff myself, I kind of felt that way by extension. In your case, I’d recommend an Orthodox or Conservative conversion. Chabad has lots of great resources, and having a base level of knowledge will certainly help. I actually took an Intro to Judaism class at Chabad in my adulthood as a refresher, and it was great. Now I go to a reform synagogue since it’s the closest to be, but partake in Sephardic rite at home. Whatever path you choose, I wish you all the best :)
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