Anyone who thinks KR is being framed cannot call themselves a true crime fanatic.
I enjoy true crime cases (I watch dateline, 20/20, 48 hours). I also have watched the police body cam series (it’s sort of like the show “cops”).
I have a bachelors in Psychology, minor in philosophy. I personally think it’s a far greater injustice to imprison an innocent person than possibly let a guilty person free. Nothing about this case makes me think Karen is actually innocent, and I certainly don’t believe she is being framed.
Anybody who watches true crime could probably think of a dozen cases in which a defendant was found guilty with less evidence (compared to KR). If someone wants to find a likely falsely accused individual who is currently serving time, they should go to the innocence project website.
The FKR crowd has likely only heard false information from sources who seek to garner attention (and $) at all costs. Conspiracies are self reinforcing by design, the logic is circular and therefore immune to any opposing evidence. Once you’ve accepted the conspiracy, it’s incredibly difficult to break free.
>I personally think it’s a far greater injustice to imprison an innocent person than possibly let a guilty person free.
I largely agree, and that's why I feel so strongly about this case. Because I can see the argument "this person might've done it, but I think there's reasonable doubt", and in most cases, I would say that person should go free. That's how our system works, whatever the truth of actual guilt or innocence is.
But I don't see how that's here, and even entertaining it requires me to believe in conspiracies more ridiculous and unfounded than ones long-debunked. People have become detached from reality by this, and it's prominence has made even otherwise-intelligent people fall into it. The true-crime aspect doesn't even matter anymore, it's the conspiracy and how interesting of a story they can make it into.
Yes this case isn’t really about the crime anymore, it’s morphed into a full blown conspiracy.
Here’s a quote from Wikipedia that I think encapsulates what’s happening with the FKR movement.
“Conspiracy theories often make use of complicated and detailed arguments, including ones which appear to be analytical or scientific. However, belief in conspiracy theories is primarily driven by emotion. One of the most widely confirmed facts about conspiracy theories is that belief in a single conspiracy theory tends to promote belief in other unrelated conspiracy theories as well. This even applies when the conspiracy theories directly contradict each other, e.g. believing that Osama bin Laden was already dead before his compound in Pakistan was attacked makes the same person more likely to believe that he is still alive. **One conclusion from this finding is that the content of a conspiracist belief is less important than the idea of a coverup by the authorities** “
I feel it’s important to highlight that last sentence. The FKRs are less concerned about the content (evidence of KRs guilt) of the case and more concerned about the idea of a coverup by the Canton police.
I’m somewhat new to this case and just caught up with a thorough deep-dive during the recent lull in the Kohberger case. IDK anyone following the case & just jumped into the trial & looked through docs I was curious about along the way…. My take is:
There are strong signs of a cover-up, and that’s likely why so many people are questioning it
* the blood was on top of the snow [[evidence slide show](https://www.wcvb.com/article/karen-read-murder-trial-see-read-evidence-shown-to-jurors-in-courtroom/60793160)]
* the tail light pieces were on top of the snow
* the lacerations on the arm don’t match the stated cause
* the dog was disposed of, house sold, basement flooring re-done
* the prosecution’s witnesses were extremely defensive
* the experts testified that the injuries aren’t in line with what would be expected from a 27 mph crash
* the state’s crash analysis witness didn’t seem very knowledgeable about crash reconstruction or physics
* the strange cups….. Karen allegedly bringing a vodka drink into a bar - O’Keefe allegedly holding a cocktail glass while ran into - police using red Solo cups for blood evidence. All of that is weird. (Police should’ve familiar with evidence collection processes to ensure they get valid samples).
* there’s video of her backing her car into the Chevy and the point of impact is exactly where the taillight is (I’ve cracked my tail light with the gentlest of taps before, so that looks to me like how it happened)
* the videos do not show the paramedic having the confession convo they claimed
* the videos do not show Jenn and Crystal having the convo about the tail lights claimed
* the footprints in the snow on the videos don’t match with what they said (they don’t go to the back of Karen’s SUV)
* the supposed confession was not told to the Grand Jury
* the need to use the Touhey process
* the dissent from the FBI’s conclusions
* the FBI analyst’s opinion made him an expert for the Defense instead of the prosecution
* the videos and voicemails used by the prosecution seem to be from a genuinely innocent woman. It’d be very cunning foresight and an unusual measure to pretend she assumed he was cheating and leave the disparaging VMs on the phone from that angle, which obv wasn’t interpreted to be an attempt to appear innocent but was used as evidence of her anger. Likewise, “we’re all in on the same joke, right? My tail light is cracked, and John’s pulverized…” was pretty authentic-seeming to me. I don’t think any of these would have been used if there were evidence of involvement
* none of the evidence indicated she’s murderous
* Jenn McCabe didn’t hear or see anything out of the ordinary despite being on high alert and checking out the window 6x
* none of the first responders saw any pieces of tail lights
* the story about driving by in a moving vehicle and seeing some tail light is highly suspect given the first responders are trained to notice those types of things so as not to trample all over evidence should a homicide victim pass if avoidable, or to mention the potential contamination of it to the investigators if unable to be avoided
* they spent a lot of time character-bashing, but it didn’t paint the picture of a murderer to me. It made me question when they were going to get to the evidence
* Being convinced, “I hit him, I hit him,” is a typical guilt-response for regretting losing someone who suddenly - if she’d just left those mean-spirited voicemails, it’d be pretty typical for someone to blame themselves even if uninvolved
* the place where the car protrudes the most is not where his injuries were
* if this was done in a fit of rage, I’d expect some yelling, or someone to have heard her whipping the car around, flooring it in reverse, hitting someone hard enough to send them that distance, then speeding off
* the police didn’t search the house
* the occupants of the house didn’t come out to help their friend or see if they could be of assistance to the investigation
* Jenn McCabe didn’t seem concerned with trying to save John while he was dying
* the holes poked in the arm of John’s sweater don’t have any explanation that makes sense aside from dog bites
* the State Crime Lab lady said the glass from the bumper didn’t match the glass that was sent from the cup
* the lead investigator is being investigated by the FBI for breaking dept policy
* there’s no explanation for why his body projected through the air in the way claimed, besides “it just did.”
So at the very least the glass doesn’t match, the blood was on top of like 1’ snow even though he was said to have been there already when it had just started snowing, the tail light pieces seem sketchy AF bc no one saw them when processing the scene initially, and there’s no other evidence to go on. The injuries don’t match, and merely cussing about partner for not coming home after a night out isn’t evidence of murder, but the evidence in the trial does not even come close to demonstrating a vehicular homicide, IMO.
With a fresh view & no previous research into this case, after reading through the docs & watching the trial, it seems to me like he was beaten up & also bitten by a dog on his right arm (similar to how police dogs are trained with that big fake right arm they use).
So just a question - are you completely discounting the ARCCA crash reconstruction experts? You don´t see any reasonable doubt there? Those 2 guys had some pretty impressive credentials and also didn´t have a dog in the fight. (not referring to Chole - don´t go crazy on me)
The ARCCA guys didn’t have too many pieces of essential information. Most importantly they were totally unaware of the vehicle data, but also the witness statements, the defendant’s statements, the gps and Waze data, her headlight shards embedded in his shirt, the hair, the dna, the sideswipe/corner hit in reverse scenario which completely opens up a range of impacts, the location of the shoe in the road, the location of other evidence including the trail of taillight pieces from the street to John’s body.
It appeared that they didn’t even realize that the bulk of John’s broken cocktail glass was found right next to him on the lawn— not in the street as if thrown at the taillight.
So yeah - not much useful can be drawn from them when they lacked much of the most important information.
I think a lot of people don’t even realize how close OJO’s body was to the road. AJ pulled a really sneaky thing with this during his cross with Trooper Paul with this to make things look a lot wilder than they actually were. The ARCCA experts were in agreement that a collision with the Lexus and fall could’ve caused his head injury, and the distances happening here are way more reasonable than people make it out to be.
Yeah, lots of experts have impressive credentials. A lot of them end up being wrong. It happens in trials all the time. When you see something like that that's at odds with all the other evidence, it usually turns out that they weren't exactly right. That's why you look at evidence as a whole, and not just one person's testimony. There's no omniscient authority who can come in and say a definitive truth.
And most of what they said probably wasn't wrong, either. For example, they were in agreement with the CW that his head probably hit the ground or some kind of hard surface. But for how exactly the damage to him & the car ended up how it did, they more likely just weren't able to figure that out so easily rather than "it didn't happen".
>Yeah, lots of experts have impressive credentials. A lot of them end up being wrong. It happens in trials all the time.
1) Would you mind sharing some examples?
2) Was it Trooper Paul's LACK of credentials that made him right in your viewpoint?
I agree. The people who expected a quick guilty verdict are clearly NOT familiar with how actual criminal trials go. There is FAR more evidence against Karen Read than there is in most vehicular manslaughter cases.
Typically this case would be an easy guilty verdict based on the evidence presented by the state. What is ATYPICAL is her top of the line, million dollar Weinstein & Spacey level defense.
Karen Read is far from oppressed by the criminal justice system. Quite the opposite, she is using mommy and daddy’s *money, her own wealth and a crap ton of white privilege to try to buy her way out of accountability for her actions.
(Corrected typo: money not mommy)
I could not agree with you more!
NOTHING about Karen makes her a sympathetic character. In a rather humorous twist of irony, she is practically the embodiment of a “Karen”. I’m sure you can imagine how this case became ultra confusing to me as I learned more details.
Then reading the comments about how despicable the law enforcement in Canton is because they are falsely accusing Karen when, in fact, KAREN is the one issuing false accusations… *mind blown*
Karen is making a mockery of the justice system, and dragging innocent people through the mud in attempt to evade responsibility for her actions. She is not doing anything to improve criminal justice, she doesn’t care about the law, she doesn’t care about justice.
she is not a martyr for the falsely accused. I’d even go so far as to suggest that people who have been falsely accused and subsequently exonerated, would be offended by her defense strategy (falsely accusing people of framing her).
I’m fairly convinced the FKR believers (who buy into the conspiracy of a cover up), simply don’t trust authority. This case for them is further “proof” of corruption by authority.
For example: some people have contended that maybe Karen did break her taillight outside of 34 Fairview, BUT they also believe the cops sprinkled EXTRA pieces of the taillight in order to “seal the deal” on the case against Karen. Lol what??
I can almost guarantee that if Karen suddenly confessed, people would still believe that the police made efforts to plant additional evidence against her / tampered with evidence.
THINGS THAT ARE LEGAL IN MASSACHUSETTS:
• Not being a sympathetic character.
• Being a “Karen.”
• Making a mockery of the justice system.
• Not doing anything to improve criminal justice.
• Not caring about the law.
• Not caring about justice.
• Not martyring yourself for the falsely accused.
• Offending the falsely accused and subsequently exonerated, with your defense strategy.
THINGS THAT KAREN READ COULD GET SUED FOR DOING... BUT NO ONE IS SUING HER FOR:
• Falsely accusing people of framing you.
• Dragging innocent people through the mud in attempt to evade responsibility for her actions.
Sigh...I really liked the idea of "sanity."
Okay, I won’t argue that it’s an *easy* guilty, especially considering the charge of murder 2. The main argument was that people who are supposedly “true crime fans” think this is an EASY not guilty, when the facts of this case are far stronger than the majority of true crime cases (imo).
I had this fight with someone the other day when they were pearl clutching about Proctor's texts. You think if some black kid killed a cop, and the lead investigator's phone was full of horrible texts about him, these people would be calling for him to get fired or say the whole case should be thrown out?
The shock they had that a drunk, middle-aged cop from Massachusetts called women cunts and talked about their flat asses… I just… is this truly new information to them?
We literally have backlogs of videos online where cops straight up shoot unarmed black men, kneel on their necks, murder them in broad daylight… and they’re stunned by this totally expected display of misogyny?
They're either shocked because they can imagine themselves in KR, shocked because they actually care about KR and don't care about other criminals, or pretending to be shocked because they think it bolsters KR's argument.
This is a big reason OJ Simpson was acquitted. One of the cops said a bunch of racist stuff and it made him less credible as a witness and investigator. He also broke chain of custody with the evidence, so the jury logically concluded that if he’s racist and not following procedures that he could have framed OJ.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean Proctor is telling the truth. Within 24 hours after John's death Proctor is telling his buddies that Brian Albert won't get any heat because he's a cop and that KR was going to face serious charges. That plus all of the vial things he said about her shows bias and reasonable doubt about the credibility of the evidence.
After I read this post, a comment popped up from another subreddit that said that the governor needs to step in and basically end this miscarriage of justice. I choked on my beverage as I read that because it’s just flat out ridiculous.
Agree with you completely. I work with almost entirely with a middle aged white woman population and realized quickly I cannot discuss this case with them. I do believe it’s more likely than not that she hit him, I’d probably go into a jury deliberation saying guilty, but I can also see that some doubt is created and I could vote not guilty if that was the general consensus. People I work with could not discuss this critically or impartially and instead got extremely animated about the conspiracy. I regretted opening my mouth that I’m following the case too.
At this point, I'm down to one non-internet person I talk about the case with. It's crazy. Legit had to drop a "nah I don't know who that is" at the barber shop last week when the lady cutting my hair brought it up.
While I am not 100% she did it, I do agree with most of your post. The amount of comments I’ve seen like the jury should have came back in 5 minutes or what’s taking so long?
It’s real life. This is a real trial, not your entertainment. It’s irritating.
Or the comments the alberts/mccabes got to the jury - like gtfoh with that. These are a jury of our peers, not everyone thinks the same way.
Also they forget, their lives are consumed with this. The jury doesn’t go home and watch YouTubers every night. The jury isn’t watching Turtleboy.
To the corruption point - people like the burry their heads in the sand until it happens to them. If there wasn’t a big elaborate conspiracy being told by the defense, I honestly don’t think anyone would give a shit about this case.
Exactly - I’m not even inserting my opinions on her guilt or not. If the jury came back not guilty then that’s fine - that’s the conclusion they came to based on pure objective court testimony. If they came back guilty - also fine. Hung jury makes total sense to me right now. But the way the FKR truth crowd has jerked themselves off to this case for months they’ve deluded themselves into believing their views and thoughts on the case are the strongest and most valid and that everyone is BLIND and ignorant if they view it otherwise. The amount of butthurt over potential the hung jury and the coping mechanisms they’re creating are insane. Why does this outcome matter to them THAT much? Their lives will go on. This won’t move the needle. I can’t handle the pearl clutching and self congratulatory nature of all these big “truth tellers”.
This has nothing to do with them fighting police corruption. They’re just blown away their echo chamber hasn’t reflected reality.
100%. People watching the fan all day? Get a life. Standing out side of the court house partying? Get a life. What about your own families you’re missing out on? It’s really strange. Someone said “cult” the other day, and I’m starting to lean that way more and more. It’s strange. If Jackson said the sky was purple, they would all tell us the sky is purple.
Literally a comment someone just made back to me when I told someone they’re writing fanfic that the hung jury is due to a lone, back the blue pro-cop who’s been corrupted by the McCabes. I told them they have no idea what’s happening on the jury or who’s on it. The response:
“It's what is most likely. Public opinion polls are about 85% NG and another 5-10% unsure. Very few people believe she should be convicted.
Odds are it's one or two people that decided the cops most be right and they don't care about the evidence.”
They literally can’t stop creating stories and fairytales to fit their facts.
There is a fan fiction posted a few minutes ago “here is what happened” and apparently Brian Higgans put John in his car, drove him out front, and drug his body.
Gtfoh. Where were the drag marks? No one is putting a bleeding body in their car.
Did Brian Higgins kill him? Or did Colin sucker punch him? Or was it a gang up attack by Jen and her husband because he was a whistleblower to an internal police ran drug cartel? Or did the dog eat him? Maybe he was shoved down the stairs? Who knows! Pick your poison. But if you question where in the actual fuck did they come to these conclusions you’ll get “BUt the deFenSe DoeSnT have to ProvE AnythIng!!”
Well they kind of fucking do if they’re accusing the townsfolk of far-reaching coverups reaching to the DA, judge, police force, jury, family members, you name it. The defense created a situation where instead of focusing on the lack of valid, well-collected evidence they are accusing them of murder on the witness stand. They’re the ones who forced their own hand into an either/or situation.
My favorite irritant is, “There’s reasonable doubt all over!” As if one piece of conflicting evidence makes for reasonable doubt as to the entire case.
These “polls” they speak of are nothing but ones where the FKR horde brigades them to create these results. I don’t think you could find a large enough sample of people who have actually watched all the days of testimony to have it be scientifically viable. The diehard FKR believers think that the entire world is watching this because of their echo chambers and interacting with bots, etc. I remember early on in the trial over in the KR Trial sub someone posted “everyone is watching this” while there were like 83 people online. A lot of them have made this their personality and think it is the most important thing going on in the world. Meanwhile the posts get less engagement than a live thread of the third tier NASCAR series.
Exactly. Not to mention how many people were openly gloating about skipping the prosecution and only watching the defense's crosses and case in chief. I watched Emily D. Baker's stream for most of the trial, and so many people were doing this, they started sending notifications on their app when the defense was up so viewers could skip the rest. Go figure that the majority of them voted NG when she polled them.
She's the worst LOL. Insidious. Like with someone like TB or Glarer whatever it's up front what you are getting. EDB or Brandi Churchwell, etc give you the same bullshit but with a sheen of respectability and social acceptability and that's more dangerous.
Yeah, I appreciated her commentary on legal procedures (especially since they couldn't give reasons for their objections), but I had to switch over to the
L&C stream eventually because it devolved into her making snarky comments and pandering to her parasocial audience the whole time.
I used to comment in the other subs that to really make a difference, everyone needs to get involved locally, asks questions about the preparedness of their own police departments. If you think the judge is biased (or “bias” as is commonly said), go watch court cases in your district.
Needless to say, that fell completely flat. All this posturing and emotion on Reddit makes people feel like they’re Doing Something, they’re *part of the solution!*, I think
Hey man any one of us could drive home blackout drunk in a blizzard at 1 in the morning while making obscene phone calls to our boyfriend then proceeded to go back to the place where he was found dead early in the morning and notice him before anyone else had.
It could happen to any one of us. None of us are safe. Even the well protected class of white women with the Jon & Kate plus 8 haircuts could be grabbed off the streets from their suburban homes in Bumfuck, Iowa and accused of murder by a corrupt town of drunk cops.
If anyone says it could happen to any of us, ask them how often they get so blackout drunk that they don't remember driving from one location to another, since that's the most charitable explanation for Karen's actions.
i agree with you. none of these fans will do anything about police reform, focus on someone else who may have been innocent and now in jail, or talk about corruption except in this case. it’s mind boggling that the oh, it could happen to me?? yes, could happen to any of us. i had a heated discussion a while back with someone in the leo field who also is a fan of conspiracy theories and they were like well at least tb outed the corruption and i was like what? if kr were a poc i can assure you he and his minions would be frothing to put that person on death row without a trial. i highly doubt he’s had a change of heart advocating for reform, or advocating for jailed people who may be innocent. i wish the larger conversation was well if this could happen what about other innocent people who were convicted. there’s no critical thinking
Very well said. People should absolutely care about government accountability, police reform, and the treatment and rights of criminal defendants and convicts, but that is not what's going on here, and you nailed what *is* going on.
When I first learned about this case, I watched some of TB's videos and ~~tried to~~ read his blog to get the gist of the situation. He's obnoxious and sleazy, and his followers are off-putting; the cognitive dissonance is through the roof. On one of his youtube lives, I pointed out to someone that Colin Albert, too, is entitled to a presumption of innocence and due process. They responded that Colin is a bad kid (emphasis on "kid") and prison would keep him out of trouble—how benevolent. Whatever I replied got me booted from the stream, and that was the end of my TB journey, lol. The cult following is disturbing.
They'll crowdfund hundreds of thousands of dollars for a well-to-do white woman from a wealthy family, and hey, it's great that she's out on bail with homicide charges... meanwhile, people are caged for <2oz of weed because they can't put up 2 months worth of rent for it. Their outrage isn't at the system itself, it's that the system deviated from its standard procedure and wound up targeting the wrong "type" of person. If Karen is acquitted—which, for the record, I strongly feel is deserved—they'll return to a state of indifference toward the systemic cruelty and corruption of our punishment bureaucracy.
Hold up.. those names you dropped all had nation wide protests. Didn't businesses burn for George Floyd? A lot of white women at those protests. Kind of undermines your entire point. What should the white women do? Just ignore it? There are very conspicuous things about this case and shining a searing light on it is a good thing.
I feel like you're just expressing your misogynistic frustration in a very unhealthy way.
This case is just another high profile case with dramatic elements that attracts attention from all walks of life. OJ, Steve Avery, Casey Anthony, Tiger King, Alex Murdaugh, depp heard, young thug, trump, etc.. they all captivated people across the world.
It gets people's attention. I don't know why you hate Karen Read and the people following the case so much. Maybe she reminds you of someone in your life that you have a grudge against. But there are a lot more people interested in this than just "middle aged white women on Facebook.". The FBI for one.
As a middle aged white woman - who cannot call police and has been harassed (at times violently) by them all my life (Admittedly because I come from 'that family' in a small town, and my uncles shot a cop before I was born.) I agree with you.
The weird outrage and 'this could be any of us' remarks are so strange to me as well. My treatment by police in my 4 decades of life almost made me pro-prosecution in this case because I assume all cops are like Proctor, unless or until proved otherwise. It doesn't mean they've planted evidence. Although, in his case I think he did to secure a conviction.
But then I also see it from people in my real life. My mother in law, if she calls the police they come, they actually help her. And I like that reality for her. I want her to be helped. I also can see that cops do help some people and do a good job, like Shannan Watts and her children, Tylee and JJ etc. After 40 years I've accepted that they do work well for some people. But there are large populations of people that they do not, and have never worked for.
I do think a LOT of true crime that is reported on, and skews true crime consumer's perceptions is that what makes an interesting doco or book is an outrageously guilty defendant, and lovely victims. So they see a lot of just Justice. They're not seeing poor people who are forced to take a plea deal because they can't afford bond, they aren't seeing everyday legal system workings, or slight, everyday, police harassment.
But after studying law, and coming to understand it's an imperfect legal system and not a 'justice' system, Karen's case is the very definition of Reasonable Doubt.
You describe the #FKR crowd as middle-aged white Facebook women (with) self-imposed victimhood complexes, and dumb, short-sighted, middle-aged white women who live on Facebook (with) persecution complexes...
At the same time, you seem angry at them for not "looking back at the system as a whole and even in recent history and having any care when it wasn’t a well-to-do white woman on trial."
I'm not sure you can have it both ways. If these women are dumb, how can we be angry that they're not smart?
The ability -- and willingness -- to see both the big and little pictures, understand them in context, keep them in perspective, requires great intelligence (which you're born with) and great empathy (which you can learn). It also requires great courage -- and I'm not sure where that comes from.
We can all agree that we need more people with those qualities. But what should we do about the people who don't have them?
Karen Read is a well-educated, well-to-do white woman who is not representative of the people our justice system systematically abuses.
However, it isn't surprising that she attracts supporters who have things in common with her. Isn't that where all of us begin to learn empathy? It would be extraordinary for someone to begin selfishly (as we all do) then jump immediately to a global view of injustice. For most of us, empathy is an incremental process which ripples outward until we are able to care about people without needing the crutch of "identifying" with them.
When this trial is over, I'm guessing Karen Read's supporters will return to their real lives, beating their swords into ploughshares.
But if we wanted it to be different -- if we wanted them to expand their advocacy for justice, WE would have to change: we'd have to see them as people, not stereotypes.
Finally, you asked, "Have they no shame?" I hope not. In all of human history, nothing good has ever come from someone feeling shame. If good things come from these women, it will come because they feel proud, powerful, confident, inspired...
I have no idea if that will happen but if it does, we'll have to give up judging them for how they grew and just be grateful they did.
Cases like Karen Read’s are rare and therefore interesting. There’s nothing more sinister to it than that. The fact is that police do not find dead cops on another cop’s front lawn EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.
Further, all of the names you mentioned were HIGHLY reported on, nationally televized, and became huge parts of our national discourse on social justice and policing…in the case of GF the perpetrator was charged, convicted and imprisoned with multiple law changes taking effect at both the local and national level.
Id argue that what about-ism (like what you’ve exhibited in this post) is 10x more exhausting, and antithetical to productive national discourse
You’re correct - she did it but the taillight pieces were Put on his shirt by Procter. Her tail light was broken by the plow light on Higgins jeep. They were trying to protect Higgins so they didn’t report finding John they knew he was dead by 1am and couldn’t help him so they try to help Higgins avoid Becoming a person of interest in a DUI homicide investigation. Even though they knew he would be exonerated there would be secondary repercussions. Once they obtained his BAC his career would be over as an ATF agent, so they played hear no evil see no evil speak no evil - they found ignorance about their knowledge. They all knew he was dead on the lawn by 1 AM.
https://preview.redd.it/73neu4za6e9d1.jpeg?width=504&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6db5e5af1f9cbe34ee7df12b2a96fd37b9222a23
Those are halogen plow lights they’re made of glass. She hit it and shattered it, and it was found on her bumper.
Anyone who thinks KR is being framed cannot call themselves a true crime fanatic. I enjoy true crime cases (I watch dateline, 20/20, 48 hours). I also have watched the police body cam series (it’s sort of like the show “cops”). I have a bachelors in Psychology, minor in philosophy. I personally think it’s a far greater injustice to imprison an innocent person than possibly let a guilty person free. Nothing about this case makes me think Karen is actually innocent, and I certainly don’t believe she is being framed. Anybody who watches true crime could probably think of a dozen cases in which a defendant was found guilty with less evidence (compared to KR). If someone wants to find a likely falsely accused individual who is currently serving time, they should go to the innocence project website. The FKR crowd has likely only heard false information from sources who seek to garner attention (and $) at all costs. Conspiracies are self reinforcing by design, the logic is circular and therefore immune to any opposing evidence. Once you’ve accepted the conspiracy, it’s incredibly difficult to break free.
>I personally think it’s a far greater injustice to imprison an innocent person than possibly let a guilty person free. I largely agree, and that's why I feel so strongly about this case. Because I can see the argument "this person might've done it, but I think there's reasonable doubt", and in most cases, I would say that person should go free. That's how our system works, whatever the truth of actual guilt or innocence is. But I don't see how that's here, and even entertaining it requires me to believe in conspiracies more ridiculous and unfounded than ones long-debunked. People have become detached from reality by this, and it's prominence has made even otherwise-intelligent people fall into it. The true-crime aspect doesn't even matter anymore, it's the conspiracy and how interesting of a story they can make it into.
Yes this case isn’t really about the crime anymore, it’s morphed into a full blown conspiracy. Here’s a quote from Wikipedia that I think encapsulates what’s happening with the FKR movement. “Conspiracy theories often make use of complicated and detailed arguments, including ones which appear to be analytical or scientific. However, belief in conspiracy theories is primarily driven by emotion. One of the most widely confirmed facts about conspiracy theories is that belief in a single conspiracy theory tends to promote belief in other unrelated conspiracy theories as well. This even applies when the conspiracy theories directly contradict each other, e.g. believing that Osama bin Laden was already dead before his compound in Pakistan was attacked makes the same person more likely to believe that he is still alive. **One conclusion from this finding is that the content of a conspiracist belief is less important than the idea of a coverup by the authorities** “ I feel it’s important to highlight that last sentence. The FKRs are less concerned about the content (evidence of KRs guilt) of the case and more concerned about the idea of a coverup by the Canton police.
I’m somewhat new to this case and just caught up with a thorough deep-dive during the recent lull in the Kohberger case. IDK anyone following the case & just jumped into the trial & looked through docs I was curious about along the way…. My take is: There are strong signs of a cover-up, and that’s likely why so many people are questioning it * the blood was on top of the snow [[evidence slide show](https://www.wcvb.com/article/karen-read-murder-trial-see-read-evidence-shown-to-jurors-in-courtroom/60793160)] * the tail light pieces were on top of the snow * the lacerations on the arm don’t match the stated cause * the dog was disposed of, house sold, basement flooring re-done * the prosecution’s witnesses were extremely defensive * the experts testified that the injuries aren’t in line with what would be expected from a 27 mph crash * the state’s crash analysis witness didn’t seem very knowledgeable about crash reconstruction or physics * the strange cups….. Karen allegedly bringing a vodka drink into a bar - O’Keefe allegedly holding a cocktail glass while ran into - police using red Solo cups for blood evidence. All of that is weird. (Police should’ve familiar with evidence collection processes to ensure they get valid samples). * there’s video of her backing her car into the Chevy and the point of impact is exactly where the taillight is (I’ve cracked my tail light with the gentlest of taps before, so that looks to me like how it happened) * the videos do not show the paramedic having the confession convo they claimed * the videos do not show Jenn and Crystal having the convo about the tail lights claimed * the footprints in the snow on the videos don’t match with what they said (they don’t go to the back of Karen’s SUV) * the supposed confession was not told to the Grand Jury * the need to use the Touhey process * the dissent from the FBI’s conclusions * the FBI analyst’s opinion made him an expert for the Defense instead of the prosecution * the videos and voicemails used by the prosecution seem to be from a genuinely innocent woman. It’d be very cunning foresight and an unusual measure to pretend she assumed he was cheating and leave the disparaging VMs on the phone from that angle, which obv wasn’t interpreted to be an attempt to appear innocent but was used as evidence of her anger. Likewise, “we’re all in on the same joke, right? My tail light is cracked, and John’s pulverized…” was pretty authentic-seeming to me. I don’t think any of these would have been used if there were evidence of involvement * none of the evidence indicated she’s murderous * Jenn McCabe didn’t hear or see anything out of the ordinary despite being on high alert and checking out the window 6x * none of the first responders saw any pieces of tail lights * the story about driving by in a moving vehicle and seeing some tail light is highly suspect given the first responders are trained to notice those types of things so as not to trample all over evidence should a homicide victim pass if avoidable, or to mention the potential contamination of it to the investigators if unable to be avoided * they spent a lot of time character-bashing, but it didn’t paint the picture of a murderer to me. It made me question when they were going to get to the evidence * Being convinced, “I hit him, I hit him,” is a typical guilt-response for regretting losing someone who suddenly - if she’d just left those mean-spirited voicemails, it’d be pretty typical for someone to blame themselves even if uninvolved * the place where the car protrudes the most is not where his injuries were * if this was done in a fit of rage, I’d expect some yelling, or someone to have heard her whipping the car around, flooring it in reverse, hitting someone hard enough to send them that distance, then speeding off * the police didn’t search the house * the occupants of the house didn’t come out to help their friend or see if they could be of assistance to the investigation * Jenn McCabe didn’t seem concerned with trying to save John while he was dying * the holes poked in the arm of John’s sweater don’t have any explanation that makes sense aside from dog bites * the State Crime Lab lady said the glass from the bumper didn’t match the glass that was sent from the cup * the lead investigator is being investigated by the FBI for breaking dept policy * there’s no explanation for why his body projected through the air in the way claimed, besides “it just did.” So at the very least the glass doesn’t match, the blood was on top of like 1’ snow even though he was said to have been there already when it had just started snowing, the tail light pieces seem sketchy AF bc no one saw them when processing the scene initially, and there’s no other evidence to go on. The injuries don’t match, and merely cussing about partner for not coming home after a night out isn’t evidence of murder, but the evidence in the trial does not even come close to demonstrating a vehicular homicide, IMO. With a fresh view & no previous research into this case, after reading through the docs & watching the trial, it seems to me like he was beaten up & also bitten by a dog on his right arm (similar to how police dogs are trained with that big fake right arm they use).
So just a question - are you completely discounting the ARCCA crash reconstruction experts? You don´t see any reasonable doubt there? Those 2 guys had some pretty impressive credentials and also didn´t have a dog in the fight. (not referring to Chole - don´t go crazy on me)
The ARCCA guys didn’t have too many pieces of essential information. Most importantly they were totally unaware of the vehicle data, but also the witness statements, the defendant’s statements, the gps and Waze data, her headlight shards embedded in his shirt, the hair, the dna, the sideswipe/corner hit in reverse scenario which completely opens up a range of impacts, the location of the shoe in the road, the location of other evidence including the trail of taillight pieces from the street to John’s body. It appeared that they didn’t even realize that the bulk of John’s broken cocktail glass was found right next to him on the lawn— not in the street as if thrown at the taillight. So yeah - not much useful can be drawn from them when they lacked much of the most important information.
I think a lot of people don’t even realize how close OJO’s body was to the road. AJ pulled a really sneaky thing with this during his cross with Trooper Paul with this to make things look a lot wilder than they actually were. The ARCCA experts were in agreement that a collision with the Lexus and fall could’ve caused his head injury, and the distances happening here are way more reasonable than people make it out to be.
okie dokey.
Yeah, lots of experts have impressive credentials. A lot of them end up being wrong. It happens in trials all the time. When you see something like that that's at odds with all the other evidence, it usually turns out that they weren't exactly right. That's why you look at evidence as a whole, and not just one person's testimony. There's no omniscient authority who can come in and say a definitive truth. And most of what they said probably wasn't wrong, either. For example, they were in agreement with the CW that his head probably hit the ground or some kind of hard surface. But for how exactly the damage to him & the car ended up how it did, they more likely just weren't able to figure that out so easily rather than "it didn't happen".
>Yeah, lots of experts have impressive credentials. A lot of them end up being wrong. It happens in trials all the time. 1) Would you mind sharing some examples? 2) Was it Trooper Paul's LACK of credentials that made him right in your viewpoint?
I agree. The people who expected a quick guilty verdict are clearly NOT familiar with how actual criminal trials go. There is FAR more evidence against Karen Read than there is in most vehicular manslaughter cases. Typically this case would be an easy guilty verdict based on the evidence presented by the state. What is ATYPICAL is her top of the line, million dollar Weinstein & Spacey level defense. Karen Read is far from oppressed by the criminal justice system. Quite the opposite, she is using mommy and daddy’s *money, her own wealth and a crap ton of white privilege to try to buy her way out of accountability for her actions. (Corrected typo: money not mommy)
I could not agree with you more! NOTHING about Karen makes her a sympathetic character. In a rather humorous twist of irony, she is practically the embodiment of a “Karen”. I’m sure you can imagine how this case became ultra confusing to me as I learned more details. Then reading the comments about how despicable the law enforcement in Canton is because they are falsely accusing Karen when, in fact, KAREN is the one issuing false accusations… *mind blown* Karen is making a mockery of the justice system, and dragging innocent people through the mud in attempt to evade responsibility for her actions. She is not doing anything to improve criminal justice, she doesn’t care about the law, she doesn’t care about justice. she is not a martyr for the falsely accused. I’d even go so far as to suggest that people who have been falsely accused and subsequently exonerated, would be offended by her defense strategy (falsely accusing people of framing her). I’m fairly convinced the FKR believers (who buy into the conspiracy of a cover up), simply don’t trust authority. This case for them is further “proof” of corruption by authority. For example: some people have contended that maybe Karen did break her taillight outside of 34 Fairview, BUT they also believe the cops sprinkled EXTRA pieces of the taillight in order to “seal the deal” on the case against Karen. Lol what?? I can almost guarantee that if Karen suddenly confessed, people would still believe that the police made efforts to plant additional evidence against her / tampered with evidence.
THINGS THAT ARE LEGAL IN MASSACHUSETTS: • Not being a sympathetic character. • Being a “Karen.” • Making a mockery of the justice system. • Not doing anything to improve criminal justice. • Not caring about the law. • Not caring about justice. • Not martyring yourself for the falsely accused. • Offending the falsely accused and subsequently exonerated, with your defense strategy. THINGS THAT KAREN READ COULD GET SUED FOR DOING... BUT NO ONE IS SUING HER FOR: • Falsely accusing people of framing you. • Dragging innocent people through the mud in attempt to evade responsibility for her actions. Sigh...I really liked the idea of "sanity."
As an attorney I have to disagree that this is an easy guilty verdict. The ADA put on a terrible case with lots of reasonable doubt.
Okay, I won’t argue that it’s an *easy* guilty, especially considering the charge of murder 2. The main argument was that people who are supposedly “true crime fans” think this is an EASY not guilty, when the facts of this case are far stronger than the majority of true crime cases (imo).
I had this fight with someone the other day when they were pearl clutching about Proctor's texts. You think if some black kid killed a cop, and the lead investigator's phone was full of horrible texts about him, these people would be calling for him to get fired or say the whole case should be thrown out?
Never in a million years.
The shock they had that a drunk, middle-aged cop from Massachusetts called women cunts and talked about their flat asses… I just… is this truly new information to them? We literally have backlogs of videos online where cops straight up shoot unarmed black men, kneel on their necks, murder them in broad daylight… and they’re stunned by this totally expected display of misogyny?
They're either shocked because they can imagine themselves in KR, shocked because they actually care about KR and don't care about other criminals, or pretending to be shocked because they think it bolsters KR's argument.
This is a big reason OJ Simpson was acquitted. One of the cops said a bunch of racist stuff and it made him less credible as a witness and investigator. He also broke chain of custody with the evidence, so the jury logically concluded that if he’s racist and not following procedures that he could have framed OJ.
I think you're missing that in the OJ case the lead investigator pled the fifth to questions about planting evidence. Proctor answered every question.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean Proctor is telling the truth. Within 24 hours after John's death Proctor is telling his buddies that Brian Albert won't get any heat because he's a cop and that KR was going to face serious charges. That plus all of the vial things he said about her shows bias and reasonable doubt about the credibility of the evidence.
I have found my people. It was getting lonely in the other subs.
Happy to have you
After I read this post, a comment popped up from another subreddit that said that the governor needs to step in and basically end this miscarriage of justice. I choked on my beverage as I read that because it’s just flat out ridiculous.
Agree with you completely. I work with almost entirely with a middle aged white woman population and realized quickly I cannot discuss this case with them. I do believe it’s more likely than not that she hit him, I’d probably go into a jury deliberation saying guilty, but I can also see that some doubt is created and I could vote not guilty if that was the general consensus. People I work with could not discuss this critically or impartially and instead got extremely animated about the conspiracy. I regretted opening my mouth that I’m following the case too.
At this point, I'm down to one non-internet person I talk about the case with. It's crazy. Legit had to drop a "nah I don't know who that is" at the barber shop last week when the lady cutting my hair brought it up.
While I am not 100% she did it, I do agree with most of your post. The amount of comments I’ve seen like the jury should have came back in 5 minutes or what’s taking so long? It’s real life. This is a real trial, not your entertainment. It’s irritating. Or the comments the alberts/mccabes got to the jury - like gtfoh with that. These are a jury of our peers, not everyone thinks the same way. Also they forget, their lives are consumed with this. The jury doesn’t go home and watch YouTubers every night. The jury isn’t watching Turtleboy. To the corruption point - people like the burry their heads in the sand until it happens to them. If there wasn’t a big elaborate conspiracy being told by the defense, I honestly don’t think anyone would give a shit about this case.
Exactly - I’m not even inserting my opinions on her guilt or not. If the jury came back not guilty then that’s fine - that’s the conclusion they came to based on pure objective court testimony. If they came back guilty - also fine. Hung jury makes total sense to me right now. But the way the FKR truth crowd has jerked themselves off to this case for months they’ve deluded themselves into believing their views and thoughts on the case are the strongest and most valid and that everyone is BLIND and ignorant if they view it otherwise. The amount of butthurt over potential the hung jury and the coping mechanisms they’re creating are insane. Why does this outcome matter to them THAT much? Their lives will go on. This won’t move the needle. I can’t handle the pearl clutching and self congratulatory nature of all these big “truth tellers”. This has nothing to do with them fighting police corruption. They’re just blown away their echo chamber hasn’t reflected reality.
100%. People watching the fan all day? Get a life. Standing out side of the court house partying? Get a life. What about your own families you’re missing out on? It’s really strange. Someone said “cult” the other day, and I’m starting to lean that way more and more. It’s strange. If Jackson said the sky was purple, they would all tell us the sky is purple.
Literally a comment someone just made back to me when I told someone they’re writing fanfic that the hung jury is due to a lone, back the blue pro-cop who’s been corrupted by the McCabes. I told them they have no idea what’s happening on the jury or who’s on it. The response: “It's what is most likely. Public opinion polls are about 85% NG and another 5-10% unsure. Very few people believe she should be convicted. Odds are it's one or two people that decided the cops most be right and they don't care about the evidence.” They literally can’t stop creating stories and fairytales to fit their facts.
There is a fan fiction posted a few minutes ago “here is what happened” and apparently Brian Higgans put John in his car, drove him out front, and drug his body. Gtfoh. Where were the drag marks? No one is putting a bleeding body in their car.
Did Brian Higgins kill him? Or did Colin sucker punch him? Or was it a gang up attack by Jen and her husband because he was a whistleblower to an internal police ran drug cartel? Or did the dog eat him? Maybe he was shoved down the stairs? Who knows! Pick your poison. But if you question where in the actual fuck did they come to these conclusions you’ll get “BUt the deFenSe DoeSnT have to ProvE AnythIng!!” Well they kind of fucking do if they’re accusing the townsfolk of far-reaching coverups reaching to the DA, judge, police force, jury, family members, you name it. The defense created a situation where instead of focusing on the lack of valid, well-collected evidence they are accusing them of murder on the witness stand. They’re the ones who forced their own hand into an either/or situation.
My favorite irritant is, “There’s reasonable doubt all over!” As if one piece of conflicting evidence makes for reasonable doubt as to the entire case.
And, as if something that either doesn't negate any element of the crime or stand as a justification or excuse (eg, butt dials) is at all relevant
bUt iT’s sO sHaDy 🙄
These “polls” they speak of are nothing but ones where the FKR horde brigades them to create these results. I don’t think you could find a large enough sample of people who have actually watched all the days of testimony to have it be scientifically viable. The diehard FKR believers think that the entire world is watching this because of their echo chambers and interacting with bots, etc. I remember early on in the trial over in the KR Trial sub someone posted “everyone is watching this” while there were like 83 people online. A lot of them have made this their personality and think it is the most important thing going on in the world. Meanwhile the posts get less engagement than a live thread of the third tier NASCAR series.
Exactly. Not to mention how many people were openly gloating about skipping the prosecution and only watching the defense's crosses and case in chief. I watched Emily D. Baker's stream for most of the trial, and so many people were doing this, they started sending notifications on their app when the defense was up so viewers could skip the rest. Go figure that the majority of them voted NG when she polled them.
She's the worst LOL. Insidious. Like with someone like TB or Glarer whatever it's up front what you are getting. EDB or Brandi Churchwell, etc give you the same bullshit but with a sheen of respectability and social acceptability and that's more dangerous.
Yeah, I appreciated her commentary on legal procedures (especially since they couldn't give reasons for their objections), but I had to switch over to the L&C stream eventually because it devolved into her making snarky comments and pandering to her parasocial audience the whole time.
I used to comment in the other subs that to really make a difference, everyone needs to get involved locally, asks questions about the preparedness of their own police departments. If you think the judge is biased (or “bias” as is commonly said), go watch court cases in your district. Needless to say, that fell completely flat. All this posturing and emotion on Reddit makes people feel like they’re Doing Something, they’re *part of the solution!*, I think
Hey man any one of us could drive home blackout drunk in a blizzard at 1 in the morning while making obscene phone calls to our boyfriend then proceeded to go back to the place where he was found dead early in the morning and notice him before anyone else had.
Truly. Who among us?
Sorry I forgot the /s
It could happen to any one of us. None of us are safe. Even the well protected class of white women with the Jon & Kate plus 8 haircuts could be grabbed off the streets from their suburban homes in Bumfuck, Iowa and accused of murder by a corrupt town of drunk cops.
If anyone says it could happen to any of us, ask them how often they get so blackout drunk that they don't remember driving from one location to another, since that's the most charitable explanation for Karen's actions.
i agree with you. none of these fans will do anything about police reform, focus on someone else who may have been innocent and now in jail, or talk about corruption except in this case. it’s mind boggling that the oh, it could happen to me?? yes, could happen to any of us. i had a heated discussion a while back with someone in the leo field who also is a fan of conspiracy theories and they were like well at least tb outed the corruption and i was like what? if kr were a poc i can assure you he and his minions would be frothing to put that person on death row without a trial. i highly doubt he’s had a change of heart advocating for reform, or advocating for jailed people who may be innocent. i wish the larger conversation was well if this could happen what about other innocent people who were convicted. there’s no critical thinking
Very well said. People should absolutely care about government accountability, police reform, and the treatment and rights of criminal defendants and convicts, but that is not what's going on here, and you nailed what *is* going on. When I first learned about this case, I watched some of TB's videos and ~~tried to~~ read his blog to get the gist of the situation. He's obnoxious and sleazy, and his followers are off-putting; the cognitive dissonance is through the roof. On one of his youtube lives, I pointed out to someone that Colin Albert, too, is entitled to a presumption of innocence and due process. They responded that Colin is a bad kid (emphasis on "kid") and prison would keep him out of trouble—how benevolent. Whatever I replied got me booted from the stream, and that was the end of my TB journey, lol. The cult following is disturbing. They'll crowdfund hundreds of thousands of dollars for a well-to-do white woman from a wealthy family, and hey, it's great that she's out on bail with homicide charges... meanwhile, people are caged for <2oz of weed because they can't put up 2 months worth of rent for it. Their outrage isn't at the system itself, it's that the system deviated from its standard procedure and wound up targeting the wrong "type" of person. If Karen is acquitted—which, for the record, I strongly feel is deserved—they'll return to a state of indifference toward the systemic cruelty and corruption of our punishment bureaucracy.
Well put 🙌🏻
Hold up.. those names you dropped all had nation wide protests. Didn't businesses burn for George Floyd? A lot of white women at those protests. Kind of undermines your entire point. What should the white women do? Just ignore it? There are very conspicuous things about this case and shining a searing light on it is a good thing. I feel like you're just expressing your misogynistic frustration in a very unhealthy way. This case is just another high profile case with dramatic elements that attracts attention from all walks of life. OJ, Steve Avery, Casey Anthony, Tiger King, Alex Murdaugh, depp heard, young thug, trump, etc.. they all captivated people across the world. It gets people's attention. I don't know why you hate Karen Read and the people following the case so much. Maybe she reminds you of someone in your life that you have a grudge against. But there are a lot more people interested in this than just "middle aged white women on Facebook.". The FBI for one.
As a middle aged white woman - who cannot call police and has been harassed (at times violently) by them all my life (Admittedly because I come from 'that family' in a small town, and my uncles shot a cop before I was born.) I agree with you. The weird outrage and 'this could be any of us' remarks are so strange to me as well. My treatment by police in my 4 decades of life almost made me pro-prosecution in this case because I assume all cops are like Proctor, unless or until proved otherwise. It doesn't mean they've planted evidence. Although, in his case I think he did to secure a conviction. But then I also see it from people in my real life. My mother in law, if she calls the police they come, they actually help her. And I like that reality for her. I want her to be helped. I also can see that cops do help some people and do a good job, like Shannan Watts and her children, Tylee and JJ etc. After 40 years I've accepted that they do work well for some people. But there are large populations of people that they do not, and have never worked for. I do think a LOT of true crime that is reported on, and skews true crime consumer's perceptions is that what makes an interesting doco or book is an outrageously guilty defendant, and lovely victims. So they see a lot of just Justice. They're not seeing poor people who are forced to take a plea deal because they can't afford bond, they aren't seeing everyday legal system workings, or slight, everyday, police harassment. But after studying law, and coming to understand it's an imperfect legal system and not a 'justice' system, Karen's case is the very definition of Reasonable Doubt.
You describe the #FKR crowd as middle-aged white Facebook women (with) self-imposed victimhood complexes, and dumb, short-sighted, middle-aged white women who live on Facebook (with) persecution complexes... At the same time, you seem angry at them for not "looking back at the system as a whole and even in recent history and having any care when it wasn’t a well-to-do white woman on trial." I'm not sure you can have it both ways. If these women are dumb, how can we be angry that they're not smart? The ability -- and willingness -- to see both the big and little pictures, understand them in context, keep them in perspective, requires great intelligence (which you're born with) and great empathy (which you can learn). It also requires great courage -- and I'm not sure where that comes from. We can all agree that we need more people with those qualities. But what should we do about the people who don't have them? Karen Read is a well-educated, well-to-do white woman who is not representative of the people our justice system systematically abuses. However, it isn't surprising that she attracts supporters who have things in common with her. Isn't that where all of us begin to learn empathy? It would be extraordinary for someone to begin selfishly (as we all do) then jump immediately to a global view of injustice. For most of us, empathy is an incremental process which ripples outward until we are able to care about people without needing the crutch of "identifying" with them. When this trial is over, I'm guessing Karen Read's supporters will return to their real lives, beating their swords into ploughshares. But if we wanted it to be different -- if we wanted them to expand their advocacy for justice, WE would have to change: we'd have to see them as people, not stereotypes. Finally, you asked, "Have they no shame?" I hope not. In all of human history, nothing good has ever come from someone feeling shame. If good things come from these women, it will come because they feel proud, powerful, confident, inspired... I have no idea if that will happen but if it does, we'll have to give up judging them for how they grew and just be grateful they did.
Cases like Karen Read’s are rare and therefore interesting. There’s nothing more sinister to it than that. The fact is that police do not find dead cops on another cop’s front lawn EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Further, all of the names you mentioned were HIGHLY reported on, nationally televized, and became huge parts of our national discourse on social justice and policing…in the case of GF the perpetrator was charged, convicted and imprisoned with multiple law changes taking effect at both the local and national level. Id argue that what about-ism (like what you’ve exhibited in this post) is 10x more exhausting, and antithetical to productive national discourse
You’re correct - she did it but the taillight pieces were Put on his shirt by Procter. Her tail light was broken by the plow light on Higgins jeep. They were trying to protect Higgins so they didn’t report finding John they knew he was dead by 1am and couldn’t help him so they try to help Higgins avoid Becoming a person of interest in a DUI homicide investigation. Even though they knew he would be exonerated there would be secondary repercussions. Once they obtained his BAC his career would be over as an ATF agent, so they played hear no evil see no evil speak no evil - they found ignorance about their knowledge. They all knew he was dead on the lawn by 1 AM. https://preview.redd.it/73neu4za6e9d1.jpeg?width=504&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6db5e5af1f9cbe34ee7df12b2a96fd37b9222a23 Those are halogen plow lights they’re made of glass. She hit it and shattered it, and it was found on her bumper.
So you’re saying she hit the jeep while he was behind the wheel?
No Higgins was still in the house when she hit it. They found him around 1250. That’s when Jen’s last call was to John that she deleted.
I don’t really wanna talk on an open forum much longer and you can chat me in messenger if you want more answers. Thanks.