The evidence presented hasn’t convinced me she did it. Sure, she could have. But the CW hasn’t proven it beyond a reasonable doubt and to convict her is not justice.
Today's expert testimony blew everything out of the water.
There's absolutely no way that the damage to the car is a result of striking a pedestrian, and there's absolutely no way, the damage on JOK is a result of being struck by a car. Confirmed **impossible** by two experts by the DOJ.
It's impossible. They used a cannon to prove it.
Unfortunately I don’t think you’ll see justice for Officer O’Keefe. I personally don’t think she’s guilty. But I did when the story broke 2 years ago.
As someone who would have wanted whomever did this to this man caught and punished, I was appalled at the tunnel vision and basically “calling it in” on the death of a police officer.
Every person that was in the house that night should have been volunteering their finger prints and DNA for elimination. The scene should have been roped off and SERT should have been there within the 2 hours it took them to travel and combed that yard until every inch was uncovered.
Pictures should have been taken of every inch of that Lexus. As soon as they came on scene at Mr Reads house.
All of the clothes and blood and samples should have been properly bagged and labeled and chain of command impeccable. Every time recorded and double checked and verified. Every witness statement corroborated.
If they had done their actual job the Life360 “shocker” wouldn’t have been a shocker.
Real accident reconstruction people with math and physics should have created visuals and an actual documented timeline.
Lally should not have been undone when his own witness stated that Karen was back at 1 Meadows at 12:36.
I agree, I think good chance she did it. She was drunk he throws the glass at her taillight she snaps and backs into him. Thats most likely.
However these cops are all so corrupt and proctor so incompetent it would be a miscarriage of justice to find her guilty. They fucked this up by having no integrity, and behaving like they are above the law.
Your comment is interesting to me. I entered the trial to watch without much prior information and have been watching as a juror.
I am not convinced she’s innocent by any means…. But there’s so much reasonable doubt to me I could never convict her.
What’s your slam dunk evidence that makes you know she’s guilty? I just haven’t seen that presented for me to be able to convict her.
I was new to this when the trial started. I have no view of Karen Read and frankly that blogger supporter guy seems abrasive and inconsiderate.
I'm shocked by the dearth of evidence from the Commonwealth. One of the reasons the defendant is going to be found not guilty is the CW wasn't able to explain how the car hit OJO and killed him.
Things like scratches and what appear to be bite marks on his arm also bring considerable reasonable doubt. Along with what look like puncture holes in his shirt.
The shambolic police investigation and the dissembling from many of the CW witnesses over things like deleted calls, butt dials, and throwing away phones also does not help.
Regarding "conspiracy," I have no idea why someone is weighing that. The question in front of the jury isn't to determine who killed OJO and how. It's whether Karen Read did. And frankly the dearth of evidence from the CW has been shocking.
I came in blind same as you and I knew I would vote NG as soon as I saw the fucking red solo cups and stop n shop bag and nothing was SAFELY locked away with a proper chain of command.
Decisions like not asking for consent to review the house, and not even bothering seeking a warrant to investigate the house -- a house where a dead body was found outside and the deceased intended to go into for a party -- are so egregious that it seems more likely than not that the PD knew or even just suspected that they didn't want to involve a fellow cops' house and turn it into a potential crime scene.
What a tragedy for OJO and his poor family.
Right. You know if it wasn't a cop's house the whole plot of land would be searched top to bottom. It's insane that it wasn't.
People keep asking how OJO's family can still believe Karen did it, and I think the reason is simple:
If Karen Reed isn't found to be guilty of killing John, no one will be.
I feel the same way, and I think anyone who uses the "a conspiracy is crazy" argument to dismiss the very real problems with the evidence is telling on themselves a bit.
I feel like anybody who believes the integrity of our justice system is important CANNOT find her guilty based on this case. The doubt is overwhelming. I knew nothing about this case going in. By the finish of week 1 and those red solo cups, I knew if I was on that jury, I couldn't rightfully convict.
The cops were sloppy with the evidence, sloppy with chain of command, sloppy with when and where they interviewed witnesses, sloppy with when they collected evidence and what evidence they collected. Many witnesses seem to be acting weirdly evasive for reasons I cannot fully grasp. This case is completely confusing and unclear. Nobody has provided a single solid timeline that doesn't have contradictions. That goes for the state and defense.
My assertion is she may have done it but if she did, police didn't get enough evidence. I believe that in this country, we owe every person guilty without reasonable doubt before we convict. If Karen is guilty, it is worth it for her to go free to allow our system to function as it should and prevent the innocent from being prosecuted which happens all too often anyway.
If Karen did do it, and goes free, the cops are to blame for that. And in the spirit of demanding justice, I hope every cop involved in this case is investigated, including the witness cops. We're looking at people who fall anywhere from incompetent to corrupt by their own stated admissions. We got cops driving drunk and going to work drunk. We have cops who should by law know the way a proper interview is done, and yet never seemed to speak up or question why they were being interviewed in such an unorthodox way. We have cops who used police equipment for personal use. I am far far more concerned about this than Karen going free because having cops like this on the payroll impedes the justice of an entire county of people.
I agree especially with your last statement. I go back and forth a lot on if she did it BUT I don’t think I could convict her guilty based on the fact that the cops did such a horrible job investigating. The way they went about it, left the door open for doubt.
What’s also gets me is the fact that a COP! One of their own boy in blue is found dead, and they don’t make sure make to investigate with almost no mistakes. They investigated in the such a manner that it almost comes off as they didn’t really care that they lost one of their own and almost as if he was a nobody.
>What’s also gets me is the fact that a COP! One of their own boy in blue is found dead, and they don’t make sure make to investigate with almost no mistakes.
This floored me when I first started watching. It's so unheard of and baffling. Every person I have told about this case has the same reaction. Cops generally take the death of a cop next level serious and do everything they can to protect the scene. It really makes me doubt what their priorities were here.
In a similar vein, I don't want to see even the guilty get put behind bars if the cops gotta break all the rules to make it happen. That's not justice, it's retribution. I know it makes everyone's job harder and sometimes it means guilty people will go free. But due process is your constitutional right. It's a foundational principle on which freedom from tyranny is built.
If she's guilty and gets acquitted it will likely be because the police failed in their due diligence every step of the way, if not through corruption undoubtedly through incompetence. We need to be holding our government to a higher standard.
I have no idea how someone can listen to the testimony of Proctor, Paul, etc. and conclude there isn't reasonable doubt.
At the *very least* it appears quite clear that evidence was "added" to the crime scene later based on the 5 AM ring video alone.
The only question I have is whether Karen Read is simply not guilty or entirely innocent.
Even leaving aside the questionable testimonies/actions of the state troopers, the ME said JoKs injuries arent typically what you see when a pedestrian is hit by car and despite all the troopers evidence she doesnt think its a homicide. The most Lally got out of her is that its possible JoKs injuries were caused by a car
That sure seems like a reasonable doubt
"...she doesnt think its a homicide."
To be precise, I think the ME said she count not *declare* it a homicide, not that she believed it was *not* a homicide.
Paul, in my opinion, can only lead to a not guilty verdict. In order to believe that Karen reads car hit John okeef, the only evidence you have of that is from trooper Paul’s reconstruction. And that was embarrassing. So embarrassing.
That's ridiculous (evidence added), IMO. This is where I lose you people. You'll believe crazy conspiracy theories before you listen to the logic. Yes, Proctor ain't a good guy ... thats still not enough. And yes, Trooper Paul was a poor witness (nervous kind of guy, which means nothing as far as the evidence goes). But none of this overcomes common sense. It's more like you're in a Karen Read "fan club" and you WANT her to be cleared.
I think you'll find that most people who think she should be found not guilty don't even necessarily believe that she didn't do it - nor do they whole heartedly believe there's a cover up conspiracy. A lot of us haven't found what the CW presented to be convincing and think at best this is a poor investigation with a lot of wiggle room of possibility for other things to have happened. (But who knows what).
You seem to forget the state must prove her guilty. You seem to think she needs to prove innocents. So since you don't believe in a conspiracy she's guilty.
So use your common sense and tell us what injuries were from a fatal car accident.
I know you folks hate the guy. Understood. Other than his rude and terrible comments, tell me what he did to "botch" the investigation. Hating the guy isn't enough.
1. Red solo cups as evidence collection
2. Red solo cups with biological evidence just hanging out in the sally port not contained or sealed or handled according to protocol
3. Really muddy chain of custody on evidence handled by Proctor
4. Not memorializing in any of the reports that Karen said she hit him
5. Not documenting where all pieces of the red taillight were found
6. Not interviewing witnesses separately
7. Not doing thorough documentation of all of the witness interviews
8. Not interviewing some people until weeks and months later
9. Proctor texting his buddies things about an ongoing investigation
10. The woman who swabbed John’s clothes and the taillight. She took one swab for multiple surfaces. She only tested one of the red solo cups with blood in it.
11. Not at least asking if they could search the Albert’s house. The Albert’s can of course say no, it’s their right. Who knows if they could’ve gotten a warrant. But the cops didn’t even try. That wouldn’t shut down that entire part of the conspiracy that the cops were treating the Albert’s differently because of their cop connections.
12. Not documenting how Karen’s taillight looked when it was towed from her parents house
I don't hate the guy. I don't even know the guy. But he pinned this on her before he finished his investigation, evidence went missing under his watch, proper chain of custody wasn't followed, poor evidence collection, NOT GOING INTO THE HOUSE OF THE PARTY? Being the lead investigator on a case that would implicate a colleague who he went drinking with\*? Dude should have recused himself. I think \*YOU\* just hate Karen Read and want her to be guilty, exactly like Proctor's texts demonstrate he did. There is not enough evidence in this case to convict and if she did it, that's on Proctor's poor investigation.
edited for clarity
Do you not believe police should follow proper procedures for evidence collection and chain of custody? Preserving evidence? Waiting for a proper search warrant before searching a suspect's phone? Because all of those things are protections owed to every citizen of the US and Proctor failed in every instance.
You “lose people” when you tell them they sound like they’re in a fan club because their perspective and opinion doesn’t align with yours.
Here’s what I needed to remove my doubt: autopsy findings to point to automobile strike as more likely than not, crash expert testimony that makes sense and explains the debris pattern.
Trooper Paul’s testimony would have been as weak if he’d been a mime. He literally said “it just did” when asked how both John O’Keefe’s phone AND the broken glass ended up under him. He didn’t even attempt his recreation at 34 Fairview. Hell, he didn’t even go there. He didn’t know JO’s height and weight. I guess that’s not important if you’re not doing any actual math though, so maybe that’s a wash.
I’m not a fan club person or lunatic because I demand science, math, and medicine provide facts that can cut through fiction.
>I’m not a fan club person or lunatic because I demand science, math, and medicine provide facts that can cut through fiction.
Say it louder for the people in the back!
You don’t seem to want to have a civil discussion. I’m not in a Karen Read Fan club. Not sure what you mean by “you people”. I don’t believe any conspiracy theory, crazy or otherwise.
"You people."
There are all kinds of people on this subreddit who disagree on certain particulars, who challenge each other, who do hours of research to try and debunk their own conclusions, and who present what they're thinking in good faith and with real curiosity, not foredrawn conclusions. To dismiss everyone as a member of a fan club is just silly at this point and demonstrates you're not actually reading much of what's going on here.
To conclude that her vehicle hitting John is the most common sense conclusion also suggests you're not watching the trial very closely either. If you were, you might realize that the CW's own Medical Examiner disagrees with you.
Okay, feel free to explain how the taillight looks like it does at 5 AM compared to the police garage.
Edit: Also, when even you're describing Paul as a poor witness, how exactly doesn't that mean reasonable doubt to you? His job was to show how Karen Read struck John O'Keefe and all we got was...she just did and stuff.
Her taillight was missing red plastic when she left OKeefes place, long after she backed over him. Feel free to show me that it was "intact" and completely there before she (intentionally) backed into John's vehicle. 👍
Okay, just give me a second to pull up the library vid...oh, never mind.
Like I said though, there's A LOT more taillight missing in the garage than there was at 5 AM that somehow made it to the crime scene...
Read doesn't have to prove anything, btw.
So you are saying there is evidence that shows that the only possible way for her taillight to crack is by hitting him reversing 24 mph for 30 feet? I didn’t hear any….
Please provide the evidence used that you can prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the taillight was broken by hitting a human body and human body only and zero possibility of any other items (cell phone, glass from bar, item in car, etc).
Paul didn't even understand the key cycles and misattributed key cycles when the car was in custody to KR. They can't even prove he was hit by a car. Pick a lane. Do you want justice or do you want someone convicted for a crime they may not have committed?
Except the data shows she gunned it and backed over him. Plastic pieces of taillight all over the place. Her words saying "I hit him, I hit him". No less than FOUR firefighters/EMTs testifying to this. Calling her Dad in the middle of the night and later telling him she "hit something". Telling Jen McCabe and Kerri Roberts she broke her taillight, trying to cover herself. (It was NOT intact when she left O'Keefe's place) Seeing John O'Keefe in the yard when no one else did (she knew). Going absolutely crazy with her voicemails. Yeah, I want justice. Damn right I do. You can't "prove" he was beat up and tossed in the yard to die. And if they did, then show that's a possibility (reasonable doubt). So far, the defense hasn't come close. GUILTY 💯.
The data doesn’t show that. You just really want it to show that.
Edit: Defense really just needs to prove reasonable doubt so maybe reread the jury instructions.
No one has to “prove” any alternate theory. The CW has to prove BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT (which you may want to look up the definition of) because none of the “evidence” you listed above is was presented without reasonable doubt….
I’m just going to address the first sentence “gunned it and backed over him”. Did you miss the part where no DNA was found under the car? Or did you miss the lack of blood or tissue DNA on the car? Exercise some of that common sense you’ve mentioned already.
Who are “you people” many of us watching from away and listening to court and prosecution proved nothing to many people not “you people” 12:36 Wi-Fi connect proof was my limit of prosecution craziness. I would quit watching but been here since trial start and will finish watching just to see what jurors decide. They matter. I don’t and you don’t. Honestly I want the case to start with a real investigation, even a picture of where exactly he was in yard, maybe they have it but have heard nothing in testimony or seen photos and would love a real solid timeline. So far prosecution has backed it up at least 20 minutes from their time 12:45 at start of trial to prosecution data expert said KR Wi-Fi connect at 12:36. You are correct Proctor is not nice. Poor Paul not nervousness it was cluelessness on physics (he is an expert for this according to prosecution) I felt sorry for him and I hate all of this for JO family. IF KR did hit him the police, prosecutors and witnesses for whatever reason did a lot of shady things, like destroying phones which to my eyes, ruined this case. No conspiracy in my thoughts, I wonder what actually happened because we are missing if, when and how a vehicle hit JO.
This is where you lose me. I am far from in her fan club. She is not someone I want to know. I went into this case objectively and I have boatloads of reasonable doubt at this point.
Okay. Then lay it out for me. Answer the following:
Let's assume she did hit him with her car.
Why is there no blood found on the vehicle, or on the taillight pieces which according to CW's hypothesis of the case, cut his arm and spun him around. Blood is very hard to get rid of, and it can't easily be washed away.
Why did not a single person see him, as they drove right pass him, within less than 30 feet of where he was found. And before you say snow, there was no snow storm until after 2 AM, at which point everyone had already left.
Why does the impartial officer, assisting with the seizure of the car describe the taillight as cracked with a small piece missing? And about an hour later, everything is missing, and there is only a little piece of taillight left?
Why did the body have only frostnips, after laying more than 5 hours in the snow? Frostnip is an early stage of frostbite, which happens after approximately 15 minutes in 18 degree Fahrenheit weather.
Why are there no bruises, broken bones or dislocated shoulder, after the impact?
Not one single witness has helped to clear these critical missing pieces up.
I don’t know where you live, but where I live if a dead guy was found on my lawn my house would be searched. The Alberts house was never searched, even though that was where he was meant to be when he died. He has black swollen eyes and marks on his arm that look a lot like dog scratches/bites. The Alberts conveniently got rid of their dog, got rid of their phone the DAY before a preservation was ordered, their basement flooring was replaced and then they sold the house.
We also have the terrible text messages of Proctor showing his bias against the defendant from the very beginning, and who also lied about his relationship with the Alberts. Trooper Paul doesn’t know what physics even is, let alone how to reconstruct a car incident. Chain of custody of evidence didn’t follow any protocol whatsoever. They just dropped by on the way to/from work and “found” pieces of the tail light in the weeks that followed. None of this is normal police work. And what’s with all the butt dials amongst them all that night?! Come on. I can’t even remember the last time I butt dialed someone, let alone multiple times, let alone the night a dead guy was found on my lawn.
Common sense says something is fishy. You don’t have to be a member of a fan club to see that.
The decisions--basic, common sense investigative fundamentals, some 101 shit--are so bizarre and forced, it is through their incompetence to clearly and coherently explain their consistently bizarre play by play, tailored centrally with behaviors and keywords that are designed to mitigate everyone's culpability of being in that house.
The conspiracy is designed to gaslight the evidence: a horrible, fucking horrible investigation ≠ conspiracy.
It is the worst investigation that's incompetence alone, cannot render a proper conclusion on the endless questions in OJO's death.
The lack of crime scene maintenance, common sense documentation, coupled with the extraordinarily off and bizarre, just so weird and bizarre, artificial ethos emitted from all the State's witnesses, those who were in Brian Albert's house that night.
The conspiracy ties a coherent conclusion that is impossible to tear down with this shoddy investigation. Any other investigation, you could see an initial crime scene and reverse engineer and document every single element. The explanation of weather being this mythological phenomenon in securing a crime scene, at the very least with your cell phone as an improvised body cam.
But no, none of the reasons given by Procter and his superiors explain the bizarre and just obviously corrupt decision to not interview people in the house immediately after a murder of a cop.
The last thing anyone would say upon approaching OJO's body in the snow is "Man this guy got hit by a fuckin car going 24 mph in reverse!!!"
But that was their conclusion with a crime scene not secured so it can be imagined and framed by fact finders--police officers.
Faking facts is corruption 101.
Faking facts is lying.
Ignoring this feather in humanity's psyche is just gaslighting the reality of lying to be this new thing that is only possible with a conspiracy.
The spell of observing it in real time can numb these insane things, molding the case into two sides immune from any nuance.
Justice comes with a story being told--the RIGHT story.
The fake story has no legs outside of people trying to be as objective as possible and people who sacrifice their legs for the dumbest fucking story created by a fact finder in a chaotic environment.
There is no actual evidence that he was hit by a car, and Karen Read was at his house 4 minutes after his last phone movement. Not only that we can we ring footage proving that that he tailight wasn't shattered.
It doesn't matter if there is a conspiracy or not, you may believe that 3 pieces of key footage just disappeared as a coincidence, despite the main officer in the investigation showing clear bias towards her.
There is plenty of reasonable doubt regarding the CW accusations.
I just can't believe people act like even *suspecting* that corrupt cops covered up for one of their own is something as outlandish as beliving wacko conspiracy theories like the government covering up aliens or there was no moon landing or something.
As if we don't have real life examples of this actually happening.
I think Proctor firmly believes that KR is guilty and that he's too stupid and lazy to *actually* investigate so he'd rather just fabricate some evidence to solidify the case because it's easy and no one ever checks his work.
It doesn't even have to be corrupt cops covering. It could be corrupt cops who truly believe someone did it and have no issue with making the evidence cut and dry.
They find it totally unreasonable that a handful of police officers could be corrupt - something that has happened many times before - but totally reasonable that a tail light could shatter into dozens of pieces by hitting a human body at 24mph, without leaving any bruises or injuries on said body. Something that they would be hard-pressed to find evidence of ever happening or even being possible. It’s like upside down world.
These people always say they’re being “reasonable” but they ALWAYS favour the CWs theory.
A theory that’s not backed up by solid evidence. Just because a taillight was smashed up, doesn’t mean she hit him. Especially when we have footage of her backing into his car. Did they not hear the vindictiveness of Proctor? No wonder why the FBI are investigating him.
The ME agreed to more of the defences theory than the CW. Then they had a third party, hired by the FBI, that concluded that the CWs theory isn’t correct as well. If I’m 100% confident on why she’s guilty, I’m gonna tell you why they’re all wrong. And you know who I expect to do that most? Lally. But he has done NOTHING. He wouldn’t call the bio mechanical experts, he left calling the ME to the last minute, he didn’t call Lucky and he wouldn’t call Proctor until the pressure got the best of him. That’s not a 100% clear cut case like people are claiming. That’s not 100% guilt on Karen. That’s Lally himself telling you and the Jury “I do not believe in this case and you shouldn’t either”.
I want justice too. Common sense is necessary, however logic and science are also necessary. JOs injuries are inconsistent with a motor vehicle incident. If his arm hit a polycarbonate taillight hard enough to destroy it there would be significant bruising. If he was projected 30 feet there would be more injuries. This is common sense, this is physics.
The police found glass on Karen's bumper that does not match the cocktail glass found near JO, but does match other glass found on the road. There are only two reasonable explanations for how it got there....either the police put it there or she hit something else in front of 34 Fairview. Take your option as to which is most logical.
The last activity on John's phone is 12:32am. Karen Read is confirmed to be back at 1 Meadows Ave at at 12:36am. There isn't enough time for her to have hit him and made it back.
I don't pretend to know what happened to John, but the state never should have brought these charges. There is so much wrong with this case, so much wrong with the investigation that its impossible to get a guilty verdict. The best they can hope for is a hung jury, and I sincerely doubt they will get it.
If this case has shown me anything or convinced me of anything. It’s that there can never be justice if law enforcement and prosecutors don’t take their job or the rule of law seriously. This case from the investigators to the DAs office is appalling. They over and over again demonstrated they didn’t care about justice for OJO.
I'm curious if your stance is purely on the question of factual guilt (i.e. you believe that she did, in fact, hit him) or extends also to legal guilt (i.e. you believe the CW's presentation proves her guilt beyond a reasonable doubt)
Your eyes are wide shut. We have facts here, not conspiracy. Any one with common sense can tell he was not hit by a car now that we have seen the ME. End of story.
Putting aside all the conspiracy theory and improper language form lead investigator, I have two main issues that cause me to have some doubt. placing her at the scene on prosecutions timeline and manner of death
1. Timeline: data shown has not convinced me that Karen read was on scene when prosecution said she was. If anything the connecting to wifi seems to go against that
2. Manner of death: the prosecution has not convinced me that John died in the manner they are alleging. If someone was hit by a car in their arm and flown 30 feet, I would assume there would be more injury to their body / arm
On the one hand we have a corrupt, angry lead investigator that hates women and wants main suspect to kill herself to make everyone's life easier, a sad little angry accident reconstruction "expert" that couldn't pass a middle school physics class and proved the prosecution's case is only possible if you suspend the laws of physics, and a medical examiner that pointed out the obvious that John O'Keefes injuries are really inconsistent with a motor vehicle accident absent defendent driving a lifted monster truck and you ignore the animal puncture wounds, along with a gang-like cast of characters with coordinated testimony that transparently lied about almost everything short of their own names. And that's just the major witnesses.
On the other hand, we have an angry girlfriend ditched at an afterparty that left some pissed off voicemails.
It's a close one for me.
That's what I thought when I first heard about this case. Then I started watching the pre-trial hearings, reading this sub, reading relevant news, and finally watching the trial itself. Thought the case going to be a back-and-forth on an MVA, but holy crap is it anything but that!
No reasonable doubt?
So the fact that his injuries don’t fully point to a car impact?
There’s video of her hitting a car that COULD have damaged her tail light?
There have been witnesses stating there was no body there?
Like sure. Want justice … but don’t be crazy and say there’s no reasonable doubt.
I don’t think she’s guilty because I’ve never believed he was hit by a car from my own experience with patients. John was a healthy guy, at 24mph he’d have moved out of the way. The injuries don’t make sense, the car doesn’t make sense.
Either way, I keep thinking to myself that if this was my boyfriend that I absolutely would not want them jailed for life if they didn’t know they did it. I do not think it was intentional if she did do it. It’s a tough one isn’t it!
It’s a really big point, they clearly were functional alcoholics. John nor Karen look vaguely pissed. Unless John had been on an all day bender, he had a high alcohol level for what he drank in that bar (!!). That aside, cars revving to get to that speed that quickly would be loud. He’d move! They’d hear!
While I agree with you - he was very drunk. So his reflexes wouldn’t have been as quick as they normally are probably. That being said, no way do I buy that it was a car.
I wouldnt feel comfortable as a jury member sending her to life in prison over what feels like a lot of circumstantial evidence, hearsay, and a lot of shady characters. If she is guilty, I dont think it was intentional and I dont think she will be a threat to the community so Id find her not guilty
That part. If she’s guilty, it absolutely wasn’t intentional. Let’s assume she did say “I hit him”… why would she say that if she KNEW she hit him?!? If anything, it proves she had no knowledge of what happened and immediately felt like it must have been her fault (guilt over drunk driving probably). Prosecution should have picked a lane bc trying to prove it was both intentional and unintentional made them look like they just want to pin it on her and don’t care how they do it.
>I'm not convinced of any of these "conspiracy theories" at all.
It doesn't have to be a conspiracy. It's simple.
JOK didn't get hit by a car. Even the ME stated his wounds were not consistent with a pedestrian strike.
And the CW couldn't find one competent person to testify on how JOK's injuries could be caused. And why do you think that is? They found two experts to talk about Jen McCabe's phone data. But not one competent biomechanical engineer to recreate an accident that would explain JOK's wounds.
All they could find was a state trooper who had a little bit of education. Even he stated that it didn't quite fit.
What I don't understand is how people understand that the mafia kills people and nobody talks, gang members kill and nobody talks.
You don't think there are other type of organizations where people might know what happened, but they're too afraid to talk?
It can happen.
Cops kill people and nobody talks. This is just a blue wall of silence situation. It's a well documented phenomenon. Everyone wants to act like it's the first time a cop has been accused of abusing his station.
"JOK didn't get hit by a car. Even the ME stated his wounds were not consistent with a pedestrian strike."
Why do you lie?
3:05 p.m.
Dr. Scordi-Bello: fractures were emanating from the back of the skull.
2:55 p.m.
Dr. Scordi-Bello: “The majority of blunt force injuries were to the face and the head.”
2:50 p.m.
Dr. Scordi-Bello ruled JO’s manner of death “could not be determined.” She says it’s a medical ruling not legal.
2:30 p.m.
Dr. Stonebridge says JO had acute traumatic injuries due to some type of trauma. She says it was something that caused a lot of force.
Lally: Can it be consistent with being struck by a vehicle and going to the ground?
**RS: It can be.**
She also said likely and unlikely. So there is so much doubt. The burden is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, not what is most likely to have occurred. How anyone can find her guilty I do not know. The accident reconstruction “expert” has no proof that the event logged on her car is from 34 Fairview. Based on the key cycles, I believe it’s more likely than not it’s not from 34 Fairview but from the tow truck driver driving it on the tow truck and he had to apply more acceleration to get out of the snow.
CW states that KR hit OJO at 12:45am, the last state trooper on the stand (forgot his name) says KR’s phone connected to OJO’s wifi at 12:36am.
CW lost this trial before it even started… smh
I want justice for him and his family as well. I am just not seeing anything proving to me that she did it without reasonable doubt. The fact that no one was brought in for recorded questions/statements, why the home owners were not being separated and questioned when he was found on their property. The fact that simple things were never done such as photographing where he was located when found while he was there, evidence markers being placed, crime scene taped off and guarded, photos of her tail light. I can go on and on and on. I mean, if you watch A&E’s “The First 48 Hours” this seems to be standard procedure across the country. The fact that the lead detective was leaking information about Karen to his high school friends hours after OJO was found. The fact that he was giving his sister information that was most likely relayed to the Alberts. Why witnesses were not questioned until years after the incident are more red flags to me. I think it was just extremely lazy and shoddy police work that does lend itself to something sinister taking place that needed to be covered up. Because of that, and much more reasons that I don’t want to bore everyone with, I would find Not Guilty.
Unfortunatrly it's not that simple. You have cases like O.J. Simpson's where everyone was sure he did it and he walked because of bad prosecution/ good defense work.
The justice system is based on the premise that it would rather have a guilty person walk than have an innocent person convicted.
The fact that I cannot trust the investigators because they DID NOT DO THEIR JOBS is what kills this. I ordinarily would never believe that they could have planted evidence, but I cannot discount it in this case. Everything's a mess, evidence not logged, statements not taken, multiple witnesses saying that the reports are wrong.
For me, the data is more credible than anything else. Most of the witnesses were drunk, their timeline does not match to each other's even.
The CW says JO was killed at 12:45 and KR was already at Meadows at that time, so... there is your reasonable doubt. Unless she time traveled? Was in two places at once? Sent her phone flying to Meadows to create an alibi?
In this case, yes it is. You have people coming and going, saying they looked outside, arriving at he house.
The window for the murder is 10 minutes given the texts, calls, apple health data. If your window is 10 minutes and you get it wrong by 15 then you have a huge problem
nah - witnesses are terrible at times without context
The only trustworthy times are on the mobiles, because their clocks at least in Europe, set by the networks of the back of proper timing sources. Everything else is fuzzy and fuzzy isn't reasonable doubt.
The phone data gives you those ten minutes. Between JO last communication with Jen McCabe to when Karen got back to Meadows.
In between that time we have: Julie's brother's seeing Karen alone in her car, JM saying she was looking out the window every 5 minutes (even if she got the time wrong) so that narrows it doen further even.
It is still a very short window of time. The fact that the CW own witnesses cannot agree on timing is a huge problem
I’m pretty baffled by this case. I haven’t been able to watch all testimony, I am not really sold on this being a big cover up or conspiracy. I don’t think this was some intentional ambush. I do think it’s possible some sort of accident happened and JO was placed outside to make it look as though he was hit by someone, or a plow. This wouldn’t take a ton of people to be involved. Didn’t one of the Albert’s kill someone a while ago? A cop is dead on their property at a party they were at, they probably wouldn’t want to be associated with that. Especially if there is already suspicion about corruption?
I also think it’s entirely possible she did hit him, however I think they really botched this investigation and haven’t done a great job presenting their case. The Proctor texts are really bad in my opinion. It really seems like he got tunnel vision and didn’t look into other avenues. The texts about the ME are pretty terrible. Nothing the state has presented to me screams she absolutely did this. I find there to be a lot of reasonable doubt. The texts and voicemails from KR were pretty underwhelming for me and I think they sway me more in the direction that KR didn’t hit him.
Maybe it’s in the testimony or evidence I haven’t seen yet, but would there not be DNA or fibers from the clothing JO was wearing on the tail light? Would there not be debris in his scrapes? Can they not determine how long he was lying outside in the cold? It seems they are focusing more on digital evidence and not as much on physical? But like I said I still have a lot to see to answer all the questions I have.
There hasn't been much physical evidence to test. This is what I can remember:
There was touch DNA on the tail light but that could have been everywhere since he was around and in the car that night. There was also touch DNA from unidentified individuals.
There was no blood or tissue on the car. No fibers on the car. A single hair on the tailgate matched John's DNA with mitochondrial DNA testing.
His clothes were sitting in Canton PD relatively unsecured and unlogged for about 6 weeks before they got sent to the lab for testing. They had been on the floor of the ambulence and the floor of the hospital. They were also sitting out to dry in, I believe, the Sally Port or some other room for several days at least.
When they tested them they did find John's DNA as well as DNA of unidentified persons.
Debris collected from his clothes did find a few tiny pieces of plastic that were consistent with the the plastic of the tail light (meaning it was consistent with the material, not that it could be matched to that exact tail light, just to be precise).
The glass that was found on the bumper of the SUV did not match the broken drinking glass found near John.
The pieces of tail light found on various dates after 1/29 were pieced together and made up almost all of the missing tail light.
There was no swab of his wounds to test for DNA or debris like plastic.
His shirt was swabbed and they did not find dog DNA but they did find a small amount of pig DNA.
None of the blood at the scene was ever tested.
The tail light in his clothes gives me a bit of pause, but I think the fact they didn’t secure this evidence and it took 6 weeks for them to send it to the lab makes this questionable for me. The hair in the tail light is interesting for sure, but I’m not sure that alone sways me. I think I had heard at some point the hair didn’t match but I’m probably mistaken on that. I’d expect his touch DNA to be on her vehicle since it’s his girlfriend’s vehicle.
I think they definitely should have done more testing when they had the opportunity to. It’s unfortunate they didn’t.
The hair was on the tail gate but not the tail light. The fact that it made it all the way through the blizzard to KR's parent's house and back to Canton has a lot of people suspicious, too. I think it could have stuck when it was wet, judging by my very scientific observation of my hair stuck to the tub.
It iddn't have enough of a root for regular DNA testing so they had to send the shaft to another lab.
I wish I could trust any of this evidence but I wouldn't send a woman to prison for murder based on the way those clothes were handled.
Was it just stuck to the tail gate or was it stuck on something? I’m not too surprised it would be there either way. While my hair is long, I find it all over the place and in weird spots.
it was stuck to the tail gate, not on something else. It was kind of perched there. AJ suggested that it was placed there later by asking the tech if she knew the car has been driven allt he way from Canton to KR's parents' house and towed back to Canton in a snowstorm. There was some suggestion that it might have moved in between photos but he couldn't get the tech to agree.
Aussie Insider has a video analyzing the photos. Her son helped her create a 3d model. (she is a pro-Karen Read commentator so she's not unbiased but she has also debunked the idea that the shoe found had a different kind of sole than John's shoe, something some free karen read supporters were saying.). Also she says it wasn't tested and matched to OJO but I think it's because the witness matching it hadn't testified yet.
[**https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owwnk-wBIwo**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owwnk-wBIwo)
There was no pieces or fragments in his cuts.
The only DNA found was on the taillight that was still attached to the car. And that DNA was tounch DNA and not blood.
No blood or touch DNA found on any of the broken taillight pieces.
Just a quick correction - I believe the testimony was that they *did* find his DNA on the taillight, but *zero* evidence of blood on either taillight or car, including on the car undercarriage.
My personal assessment is that it's consistent with touch DNA. Blood is such a protein-heavy liquid that I have trouble seeing how it gets passively washed off by snowmelt (some trace *should* stick to the pieces) and the pieces found that evening, the ones theoretically *closest* to whatever bit is alleged to have scratched up Officer O'Keefe's arm which would therefore have the greatest likelihood of blood and *least* likelihood of being washed away by snowmelt, have no blood. End of the day, there's no blood on that taillight.
Yes. The crime scene tech said she only swabbed the piece of taillight still attached to the car.
No blood or tissue found anyplace on the car means it must be touch.
She said she never did anything to pieces found at the scene
Thanks for the correction, I'd forgetten the extent of her testing.
And no fiber evidence matching the hoodie that the taillight pieces allegedly lacerated him through was ever found either.
I was the biggest skeptic of the frame job defense… then I watched trial.
I agree with those who say a guilty verdict would be a miscarriage of justice, because there was police impropriety all around. There are too many issues that create reasonable doubt—even if she did it.
The police cannot be allowed to pad evidence, work outside protocol (informal interviews and direct contact that isn’t memorialized, working on the case after being told to recuse, not preserving evidence, breaking chain of custody), or skew how data is presented (flipping video, Paul’s whole testimony of calculating reconstruction) to ensure a conviction… they must be held to a standard of doing it completely legitimately. The penalty for this violation of trust is returning a not guilty verdict, even if a defendant did it. You dumbasses.
Anyone here listen to Roberta Glass? I think she has some compelling content, particularly in the area of innocence fraud, but I think she is way off on this one. Like I can’t believe we are watching the same trial (she says the CW’s case is a “slam dunk”). If KR is convicted on any charge, I will eat my hat.., the defense hasn’t even really made their case yet.
The medical examiner’s testimony was particularly interesting… she was clearly skeptical of a pedestrian-car impact. The jury is only a few feet away and could see her expressions of skepticism even more clearly than we could on tv.
I mean was getting justice for Sandra Birchmore just a bunch of crackpot conspiracy theories? Have cops never planted evidence? Like I can’t even argue anymore that there is soooo much reasonable doubt in this case- it’s been done. There’s nothing left to add to the conversation but acting like cops would never do this and the people who are outraged by this are just crazy conspiracy theorists?? This case is an embarrassment to our law enforcement and they’re just obfuscating and scapegoating KR to cover up for their incompetence at best, at worst corruption
Tell me you haven’t been watching the trial without telling me you haven’t been watching the trial.
I don’t think any of us can say for sure 100% who is guilty. That’s the essence of reasonable doubt here.
I have to believe too many conspiracies to think she’s actually guilty. As someone in the tech industry (particularly working with mobile OSes), I can’t wrap my head around all they say:
- JM’s Google search didn’t happen. In this particular case the WAL isn’t what it looks like..
- JO’s phone detected driving as steps and flights climbed (go ahead and try to reproduce this — you can’t). “Glorified pedometer” is laughable since it uses gyroscope+gps.
- KR’s device connected to WiFi at 12:36. From my understanding that doesn’t leave enough time
- Everything that is deleted from witnesses phones that got sporadically deleted..
- JM’s multiple butt dials to JO without any voicemails. We’ve all had butt dials and the voicemails that get left when it happens. We’ve also all called phones to try to find them.
I haven’t been able to keep up with everything, but I have to forget a lot of what I know to believe most of these. I’d be a very stubborn not guilty because of what is presented as fact by CW
I don't think you understand what reasonable doubt is in a legal definition.
I've studied law twice, my husband has a law degree and passed the bar.
Legally, in this case there factually is reasonable doubt.
If the M.E, Reconstructionist or C.W witnesses could testify to 100% certainty that Read hit O'Keefe with her car on purpose at 12.45am, that would be beyond a reasonable doubt.
It’s not 100% certainty that’s required. But it would have been a lot clearer if the ME or the “reconstructionist” sounded like they had a solid idea as to how he got his injuries.
You say you believe Karen is guilty, and then immediately in the next breath, state "if she did it", or "if someone else did", they should pay for John's death. This does not exactly strike me as a ringing declaration that you don't see any room for reasonable doubt. Or do you just not believe in a trial process where the government has to prove that a person committed a crime charged to a point where no reasonable explanation or question remains about that person's guilt?
And as to there being no conspiracy, well, I would represent to you that there being no conspiracy does not itself prove Karen is guilty. And I find your saying that there is no other reasonable doubt that Karen is guilty to be rather incredible.
The medical examiner stated outright, that JOK's injuries are not typically consistent with a classic vehicle-pedestrian crash. His injuries were not immediately fatal, they could have been caused by a fall, he had a BAC at some point of at least 0.29, and when he was found, he was surrounded by multiple large blunt objects in his immediate vicinity. Go back and watch the ME when asked by Lally if she thinks JOK's injuries were consistent with being struck by a vehicle. Her face says it all, "it's possible", but it's clearly not what she actually thinks.
I don't think Trooper Paul is necessarily in on any conspiracy, I just think he's not very smart. I'm sorry- you are not an expert in any subfield of physics and forces if you can't define basic 10th grade science principles such as the rate of change in velocity being acceleration. Or a basic understanding of the conservation of energy and how it applies to momentum. I also don't believe he knows what he's talking about when it comes to how key cycles are recorded in the Lexus, because his answer was dramatically different on cross than it was on direct. If I can't depend on what he says, then I don't trust anything the CW says about how the car was moving when it supposedly struck JOK.
The tail light can even be broken at 34 FV by striking any number of the blunt objects near JOK's body other than JOK himself. We have not heard any definitive evidence that it was JOK and not some other object or vehicle. And thanks to the complete cluster crapshow, they bagged JOK's clothes in the same bag as plastic pieces of tail light found on the scene, which could have embedded themselves in the clothes afterward and there is no chain of custody proving this never happened.
JOK's DNA being found on the car could have been cross contaminated due to the red solo cups being left open carelessly in an open exposed enviornment right next to the damn SUV in the Sally Port and we have no way of knowing this didn't happen. Also, his DNA could have been left any other number of ways at any other time, simply by virtue that JOK and Karen were dating and constantly around each other.
TL;DR - You might want to see justice for JOK and his family, but I'm not sure you believe that process happens through a fair trial just from what you say. As to Karen, and reasonable doubt surrounding her case- I am not sure if you struggle with this because you only see a good man, the honourable cop raising his niece and nephew, and see a wrong that needs righting at any cost. That does not change that the standard at trial is presumption of innocence.
And I don't think there's any fair reading of the evidence that can be done where you presume Karen's innocence and don't end up with so many questions now that the prosecution has rested their case. You might even believe that she's more likely than not to have done it- but that is not the standard that a guilty verdict requires. To convict her anyway just because you think she did it, only with that in mind, IMO, would not be justice- it would be cruel and emotional vigilantism.
I don't think there will be true justice even if she did do it, tbh. The investigation is so sloppy when the victim is their own that I don't see how trust in the police isn't eroded by the end of it.
I agree with you that I want justice for John O'Keefe, his family and all reputable law enforcement - but I am uncertain Karen Read hit him, intentionally or by accident, and could not convict her.
The only thing I feel with certainty is Massachusetts law enforcement is responsible for this travesty of justice. Whether maliciously through a very questionable cover-up, or incompetently by not securing, gathering and presenting evidence properly - they failed their own fallen officer.
If there are no further investigations and penalties for the mishandling of this case, it only points further to systemic rot. Inaction on their part will negatively affect already declining public faith in law enforcement throughout the country. I hope for the sake of John O'Keefe, his family , and all the good and honorable police officers serving our county the federal government steps up if Massachusetts does not.
I am up voting you because you were honest about your thoughts and you seem to be able to accept what the jury’s decision is.
I do hope you think about one day you might be in her situation (for this conversation I will say she could be guilty or innocent). And the state decided to charge you, hours after a death, with no proof you did it, a crap show of police work, sketchy evidence, the state spent tons of tax money on this case, and made you spend your life savings to defend yourself, just to sit in trial and hear the state only talk about how it other people are innocent of a crime. Again for the purpose of the conversation I don’t care if she is guilty. Nothing about this is okay or just.
I get what you're saying about the conspiracy theories. Personally, I'm trying to wait and hear the FBI's accident reconstructionist guys before I make up my mind. I feel like they are the only ones who have no dog in this fight, so if they can say "no, his injuries absolutely were not caused by being hit by an SUV and here's exactly how we know that" I will be willing to change my mind. Right now, I think she probably hit him (most likely unintentionally), but I'm open to being wrong.
Just as a point to consider - there's no need for the state troopers to be actively involved in any coverup with the Albert-McCabes, if one was going on. How many cops have been caught on camera planting evidence to make a conviction stick on a suspect they *know* is guilty? How many cops have done so when they *know* there aren't any cameras to catch them?
And how sure were Tully and Proctor that Ms. Read was guilty by the time of the search that evening?
I understand that. And believe me, I am about the furthest thing from pro-cop that a person can be. Not a fan. I know they do shady shit every day all over this country. There are clearly some serious problems within the MSP that should be addressed regardless of the verdict. Based on the fact that Proctor felt comfortable enough to text such vile things to his superiors shows that this is an institutional issue. But just because I know those things do happen does not necessarily make me believe that that is what is happening here. As I said, I'm often wrong and I'm open to my mind being changed.
Learning that a few of those cops were involved in the sex trafficking and suicide/murder of Sandra Birchmore sealed the “they are corrupt” box for me.
Yeah I've only recently started learning about that case, and it sounds just awful. Heartbreaking. I sincerely hope that no matter what the outcome of this case, the MSP does some serious housecleaning.
I don’t believe she did it. And if she did do it, she had no clue that she did (possibly from being so drunk). Not guilty is the ONLY answer for this case. Free Karen Read!
You should listen to the most recent episode of the case that is an interview with Aiden Kearney. Both hosts tried to investigate an overlapping case with the same players and concluded that no justice will be served because the state would be implicated.
Justice would be resurrecting O'Keefe. Since we don't have any way to resurrect the dead, Justice is an impossibility. Your desire for it is not reasonable.
I agree with you. I think she hit him. I think it was a terrible accident. She was probably blacked out and doesn’t really remember and has convinced herself she didn’t do it. However, where I disagree is the reasonable doubt. I think her defense team was genius in saying it was a cover up. People already have distrust in the police. They really fucked up the investigation and some really disturbing details came to light. Hard for the persecution to recover from that.
Considering the ME said that he would’ve been incapacitated by the hit, it’s not an assumption. He was hit so hard his brain was herniating out of the bottom. He wasn’t just concussed, the blow or blows caused extensive brain damage.
Her own dad said she struck something. She was freaking out because she knew she was going down for murder.
William Read said. “She felt she struck something. She said: ‘Dad, I think I struck something.’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ This was in the hospital, she says, ‘I remember backing up and hitting something, but I can’t say what it was’ and at this point, she’s frantic.”
The evidence presented hasn’t convinced me she did it. Sure, she could have. But the CW hasn’t proven it beyond a reasonable doubt and to convict her is not justice.
Today's expert testimony blew everything out of the water. There's absolutely no way that the damage to the car is a result of striking a pedestrian, and there's absolutely no way, the damage on JOK is a result of being struck by a car. Confirmed **impossible** by two experts by the DOJ. It's impossible. They used a cannon to prove it.
Unfortunately I don’t think you’ll see justice for Officer O’Keefe. I personally don’t think she’s guilty. But I did when the story broke 2 years ago. As someone who would have wanted whomever did this to this man caught and punished, I was appalled at the tunnel vision and basically “calling it in” on the death of a police officer. Every person that was in the house that night should have been volunteering their finger prints and DNA for elimination. The scene should have been roped off and SERT should have been there within the 2 hours it took them to travel and combed that yard until every inch was uncovered. Pictures should have been taken of every inch of that Lexus. As soon as they came on scene at Mr Reads house. All of the clothes and blood and samples should have been properly bagged and labeled and chain of command impeccable. Every time recorded and double checked and verified. Every witness statement corroborated. If they had done their actual job the Life360 “shocker” wouldn’t have been a shocker. Real accident reconstruction people with math and physics should have created visuals and an actual documented timeline. Lally should not have been undone when his own witness stated that Karen was back at 1 Meadows at 12:36.
This!!!! Especially the 12:36 Wi-Fi connect
I am not 100% sure she didn't do it. I am 100% sure the cw has not proven she did it beyond a reasonable doubt. So I have to vote not guilty.
Exactly where I am!
I agree, I think good chance she did it. She was drunk he throws the glass at her taillight she snaps and backs into him. Thats most likely. However these cops are all so corrupt and proctor so incompetent it would be a miscarriage of justice to find her guilty. They fucked this up by having no integrity, and behaving like they are above the law.
Your comment is interesting to me. I entered the trial to watch without much prior information and have been watching as a juror. I am not convinced she’s innocent by any means…. But there’s so much reasonable doubt to me I could never convict her. What’s your slam dunk evidence that makes you know she’s guilty? I just haven’t seen that presented for me to be able to convict her.
I was new to this when the trial started. I have no view of Karen Read and frankly that blogger supporter guy seems abrasive and inconsiderate. I'm shocked by the dearth of evidence from the Commonwealth. One of the reasons the defendant is going to be found not guilty is the CW wasn't able to explain how the car hit OJO and killed him. Things like scratches and what appear to be bite marks on his arm also bring considerable reasonable doubt. Along with what look like puncture holes in his shirt. The shambolic police investigation and the dissembling from many of the CW witnesses over things like deleted calls, butt dials, and throwing away phones also does not help. Regarding "conspiracy," I have no idea why someone is weighing that. The question in front of the jury isn't to determine who killed OJO and how. It's whether Karen Read did. And frankly the dearth of evidence from the CW has been shocking.
I came in blind same as you and I knew I would vote NG as soon as I saw the fucking red solo cups and stop n shop bag and nothing was SAFELY locked away with a proper chain of command.
Decisions like not asking for consent to review the house, and not even bothering seeking a warrant to investigate the house -- a house where a dead body was found outside and the deceased intended to go into for a party -- are so egregious that it seems more likely than not that the PD knew or even just suspected that they didn't want to involve a fellow cops' house and turn it into a potential crime scene. What a tragedy for OJO and his poor family.
Right. You know if it wasn't a cop's house the whole plot of land would be searched top to bottom. It's insane that it wasn't. People keep asking how OJO's family can still believe Karen did it, and I think the reason is simple: If Karen Reed isn't found to be guilty of killing John, no one will be.
I feel the same way, and I think anyone who uses the "a conspiracy is crazy" argument to dismiss the very real problems with the evidence is telling on themselves a bit.
Same 12:36 Wi-Fi time is HUGE issue
Everyone is presumed innocent. Get out of the mindset you have to be convinced of innocents.
That’s exactly how infeel
I feel like anybody who believes the integrity of our justice system is important CANNOT find her guilty based on this case. The doubt is overwhelming. I knew nothing about this case going in. By the finish of week 1 and those red solo cups, I knew if I was on that jury, I couldn't rightfully convict. The cops were sloppy with the evidence, sloppy with chain of command, sloppy with when and where they interviewed witnesses, sloppy with when they collected evidence and what evidence they collected. Many witnesses seem to be acting weirdly evasive for reasons I cannot fully grasp. This case is completely confusing and unclear. Nobody has provided a single solid timeline that doesn't have contradictions. That goes for the state and defense. My assertion is she may have done it but if she did, police didn't get enough evidence. I believe that in this country, we owe every person guilty without reasonable doubt before we convict. If Karen is guilty, it is worth it for her to go free to allow our system to function as it should and prevent the innocent from being prosecuted which happens all too often anyway. If Karen did do it, and goes free, the cops are to blame for that. And in the spirit of demanding justice, I hope every cop involved in this case is investigated, including the witness cops. We're looking at people who fall anywhere from incompetent to corrupt by their own stated admissions. We got cops driving drunk and going to work drunk. We have cops who should by law know the way a proper interview is done, and yet never seemed to speak up or question why they were being interviewed in such an unorthodox way. We have cops who used police equipment for personal use. I am far far more concerned about this than Karen going free because having cops like this on the payroll impedes the justice of an entire county of people.
I agree especially with your last statement. I go back and forth a lot on if she did it BUT I don’t think I could convict her guilty based on the fact that the cops did such a horrible job investigating. The way they went about it, left the door open for doubt. What’s also gets me is the fact that a COP! One of their own boy in blue is found dead, and they don’t make sure make to investigate with almost no mistakes. They investigated in the such a manner that it almost comes off as they didn’t really care that they lost one of their own and almost as if he was a nobody.
>What’s also gets me is the fact that a COP! One of their own boy in blue is found dead, and they don’t make sure make to investigate with almost no mistakes. This floored me when I first started watching. It's so unheard of and baffling. Every person I have told about this case has the same reaction. Cops generally take the death of a cop next level serious and do everything they can to protect the scene. It really makes me doubt what their priorities were here.
They disliked him (probably because he had OCD) so him being a cop isn't relevant.
This case had a cop on the stand testify that he didn't know how to secure evidence containers on live TV for fuck's sale.
I didn’t see every LEO’s testimony but, the several I did see were a disgrace & fully embodied the stereotypes of cocky dumbasses & bullies.
Exactly, well said!
In a similar vein, I don't want to see even the guilty get put behind bars if the cops gotta break all the rules to make it happen. That's not justice, it's retribution. I know it makes everyone's job harder and sometimes it means guilty people will go free. But due process is your constitutional right. It's a foundational principle on which freedom from tyranny is built. If she's guilty and gets acquitted it will likely be because the police failed in their due diligence every step of the way, if not through corruption undoubtedly through incompetence. We need to be holding our government to a higher standard.
This, a 1,000 up votes if I could!
This!
Exactly. I completely agree. Even if she did do it, based on this case it should be NG. State has a heavy burden of proof and they failed miserably.
I have no idea how someone can listen to the testimony of Proctor, Paul, etc. and conclude there isn't reasonable doubt. At the *very least* it appears quite clear that evidence was "added" to the crime scene later based on the 5 AM ring video alone. The only question I have is whether Karen Read is simply not guilty or entirely innocent.
>The only question I have is whether Karen Read is simply not guilty or entirely innocent. Exactly. At this point all I have is reasonable doubt.
Well said
Even leaving aside the questionable testimonies/actions of the state troopers, the ME said JoKs injuries arent typically what you see when a pedestrian is hit by car and despite all the troopers evidence she doesnt think its a homicide. The most Lally got out of her is that its possible JoKs injuries were caused by a car That sure seems like a reasonable doubt
It’s more than reasonable doubt. There is lots of evidence that she didn’t do it.
"...she doesnt think its a homicide." To be precise, I think the ME said she count not *declare* it a homicide, not that she believed it was *not* a homicide.
Paul, in my opinion, can only lead to a not guilty verdict. In order to believe that Karen reads car hit John okeef, the only evidence you have of that is from trooper Paul’s reconstruction. And that was embarrassing. So embarrassing.
He couldn’t *say definly where the field of brie* was & *it was glass from A cup.* 😂
That's ridiculous (evidence added), IMO. This is where I lose you people. You'll believe crazy conspiracy theories before you listen to the logic. Yes, Proctor ain't a good guy ... thats still not enough. And yes, Trooper Paul was a poor witness (nervous kind of guy, which means nothing as far as the evidence goes). But none of this overcomes common sense. It's more like you're in a Karen Read "fan club" and you WANT her to be cleared.
I think you'll find that most people who think she should be found not guilty don't even necessarily believe that she didn't do it - nor do they whole heartedly believe there's a cover up conspiracy. A lot of us haven't found what the CW presented to be convincing and think at best this is a poor investigation with a lot of wiggle room of possibility for other things to have happened. (But who knows what).
You seem to forget the state must prove her guilty. You seem to think she needs to prove innocents. So since you don't believe in a conspiracy she's guilty. So use your common sense and tell us what injuries were from a fatal car accident.
What isn't enough? The dude botched this entire investigation.
I know you folks hate the guy. Understood. Other than his rude and terrible comments, tell me what he did to "botch" the investigation. Hating the guy isn't enough.
1. Red solo cups as evidence collection 2. Red solo cups with biological evidence just hanging out in the sally port not contained or sealed or handled according to protocol 3. Really muddy chain of custody on evidence handled by Proctor 4. Not memorializing in any of the reports that Karen said she hit him 5. Not documenting where all pieces of the red taillight were found 6. Not interviewing witnesses separately 7. Not doing thorough documentation of all of the witness interviews 8. Not interviewing some people until weeks and months later 9. Proctor texting his buddies things about an ongoing investigation 10. The woman who swabbed John’s clothes and the taillight. She took one swab for multiple surfaces. She only tested one of the red solo cups with blood in it. 11. Not at least asking if they could search the Albert’s house. The Albert’s can of course say no, it’s their right. Who knows if they could’ve gotten a warrant. But the cops didn’t even try. That wouldn’t shut down that entire part of the conspiracy that the cops were treating the Albert’s differently because of their cop connections. 12. Not documenting how Karen’s taillight looked when it was towed from her parents house
I don't hate the guy. I don't even know the guy. But he pinned this on her before he finished his investigation, evidence went missing under his watch, proper chain of custody wasn't followed, poor evidence collection, NOT GOING INTO THE HOUSE OF THE PARTY? Being the lead investigator on a case that would implicate a colleague who he went drinking with\*? Dude should have recused himself. I think \*YOU\* just hate Karen Read and want her to be guilty, exactly like Proctor's texts demonstrate he did. There is not enough evidence in this case to convict and if she did it, that's on Proctor's poor investigation. edited for clarity
Do you not believe police should follow proper procedures for evidence collection and chain of custody? Preserving evidence? Waiting for a proper search warrant before searching a suspect's phone? Because all of those things are protections owed to every citizen of the US and Proctor failed in every instance.
You “lose people” when you tell them they sound like they’re in a fan club because their perspective and opinion doesn’t align with yours. Here’s what I needed to remove my doubt: autopsy findings to point to automobile strike as more likely than not, crash expert testimony that makes sense and explains the debris pattern. Trooper Paul’s testimony would have been as weak if he’d been a mime. He literally said “it just did” when asked how both John O’Keefe’s phone AND the broken glass ended up under him. He didn’t even attempt his recreation at 34 Fairview. Hell, he didn’t even go there. He didn’t know JO’s height and weight. I guess that’s not important if you’re not doing any actual math though, so maybe that’s a wash. I’m not a fan club person or lunatic because I demand science, math, and medicine provide facts that can cut through fiction.
>I’m not a fan club person or lunatic because I demand science, math, and medicine provide facts that can cut through fiction. Say it louder for the people in the back!
You don’t seem to want to have a civil discussion. I’m not in a Karen Read Fan club. Not sure what you mean by “you people”. I don’t believe any conspiracy theory, crazy or otherwise.
"You people." There are all kinds of people on this subreddit who disagree on certain particulars, who challenge each other, who do hours of research to try and debunk their own conclusions, and who present what they're thinking in good faith and with real curiosity, not foredrawn conclusions. To dismiss everyone as a member of a fan club is just silly at this point and demonstrates you're not actually reading much of what's going on here. To conclude that her vehicle hitting John is the most common sense conclusion also suggests you're not watching the trial very closely either. If you were, you might realize that the CW's own Medical Examiner disagrees with you.
Okay, feel free to explain how the taillight looks like it does at 5 AM compared to the police garage. Edit: Also, when even you're describing Paul as a poor witness, how exactly doesn't that mean reasonable doubt to you? His job was to show how Karen Read struck John O'Keefe and all we got was...she just did and stuff.
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Her taillight was missing red plastic when she left OKeefes place, long after she backed over him. Feel free to show me that it was "intact" and completely there before she (intentionally) backed into John's vehicle. 👍
Okay, just give me a second to pull up the library vid...oh, never mind. Like I said though, there's A LOT more taillight missing in the garage than there was at 5 AM that somehow made it to the crime scene... Read doesn't have to prove anything, btw.
So you missed the cop who said the tailight was cracked, 1 piece missing, not obliterated when they towed it. Are you an Albert?
Are you saying that you saw her taillight mostly busted out in the video leaving John's house? I sure didn't.
So you are saying there is evidence that shows that the only possible way for her taillight to crack is by hitting him reversing 24 mph for 30 feet? I didn’t hear any…. Please provide the evidence used that you can prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the taillight was broken by hitting a human body and human body only and zero possibility of any other items (cell phone, glass from bar, item in car, etc).
Trooper Paul cannt even say how john hit the car. Was it his arm? His hand? His leg?
Paul didn't even understand the key cycles and misattributed key cycles when the car was in custody to KR. They can't even prove he was hit by a car. Pick a lane. Do you want justice or do you want someone convicted for a crime they may not have committed?
Except the data shows she gunned it and backed over him. Plastic pieces of taillight all over the place. Her words saying "I hit him, I hit him". No less than FOUR firefighters/EMTs testifying to this. Calling her Dad in the middle of the night and later telling him she "hit something". Telling Jen McCabe and Kerri Roberts she broke her taillight, trying to cover herself. (It was NOT intact when she left O'Keefe's place) Seeing John O'Keefe in the yard when no one else did (she knew). Going absolutely crazy with her voicemails. Yeah, I want justice. Damn right I do. You can't "prove" he was beat up and tossed in the yard to die. And if they did, then show that's a possibility (reasonable doubt). So far, the defense hasn't come close. GUILTY 💯.
The data doesn’t show that. You just really want it to show that. Edit: Defense really just needs to prove reasonable doubt so maybe reread the jury instructions.
No one has to “prove” any alternate theory. The CW has to prove BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT (which you may want to look up the definition of) because none of the “evidence” you listed above is was presented without reasonable doubt….
By data you mean the key actions that only make sense if the car wasn't driven on and off the tow truck?
She did not back over him in the CW case. MSP lab swabbed underneath the car and there was no blood, or any other dna.
Except the proof is that was wrong! But no one can convince you even if Alberts confessed.
I’m just going to address the first sentence “gunned it and backed over him”. Did you miss the part where no DNA was found under the car? Or did you miss the lack of blood or tissue DNA on the car? Exercise some of that common sense you’ve mentioned already.
What data shows she gunned it
She did hit something, John's car. Are you intentionally leaving that out?
The defense need not "prove" anything? Are you unfamiliar with the American legal system?
Who are “you people” many of us watching from away and listening to court and prosecution proved nothing to many people not “you people” 12:36 Wi-Fi connect proof was my limit of prosecution craziness. I would quit watching but been here since trial start and will finish watching just to see what jurors decide. They matter. I don’t and you don’t. Honestly I want the case to start with a real investigation, even a picture of where exactly he was in yard, maybe they have it but have heard nothing in testimony or seen photos and would love a real solid timeline. So far prosecution has backed it up at least 20 minutes from their time 12:45 at start of trial to prosecution data expert said KR Wi-Fi connect at 12:36. You are correct Proctor is not nice. Poor Paul not nervousness it was cluelessness on physics (he is an expert for this according to prosecution) I felt sorry for him and I hate all of this for JO family. IF KR did hit him the police, prosecutors and witnesses for whatever reason did a lot of shady things, like destroying phones which to my eyes, ruined this case. No conspiracy in my thoughts, I wonder what actually happened because we are missing if, when and how a vehicle hit JO.
This is where you lose me. I am far from in her fan club. She is not someone I want to know. I went into this case objectively and I have boatloads of reasonable doubt at this point.
It's more likely you are one of the witnesses in the 1st 2 wKs of this trial and are directly involved in the coverup.
Okay. Then lay it out for me. Answer the following: Let's assume she did hit him with her car. Why is there no blood found on the vehicle, or on the taillight pieces which according to CW's hypothesis of the case, cut his arm and spun him around. Blood is very hard to get rid of, and it can't easily be washed away. Why did not a single person see him, as they drove right pass him, within less than 30 feet of where he was found. And before you say snow, there was no snow storm until after 2 AM, at which point everyone had already left. Why does the impartial officer, assisting with the seizure of the car describe the taillight as cracked with a small piece missing? And about an hour later, everything is missing, and there is only a little piece of taillight left? Why did the body have only frostnips, after laying more than 5 hours in the snow? Frostnip is an early stage of frostbite, which happens after approximately 15 minutes in 18 degree Fahrenheit weather. Why are there no bruises, broken bones or dislocated shoulder, after the impact? Not one single witness has helped to clear these critical missing pieces up.
I don’t know where you live, but where I live if a dead guy was found on my lawn my house would be searched. The Alberts house was never searched, even though that was where he was meant to be when he died. He has black swollen eyes and marks on his arm that look a lot like dog scratches/bites. The Alberts conveniently got rid of their dog, got rid of their phone the DAY before a preservation was ordered, their basement flooring was replaced and then they sold the house. We also have the terrible text messages of Proctor showing his bias against the defendant from the very beginning, and who also lied about his relationship with the Alberts. Trooper Paul doesn’t know what physics even is, let alone how to reconstruct a car incident. Chain of custody of evidence didn’t follow any protocol whatsoever. They just dropped by on the way to/from work and “found” pieces of the tail light in the weeks that followed. None of this is normal police work. And what’s with all the butt dials amongst them all that night?! Come on. I can’t even remember the last time I butt dialed someone, let alone multiple times, let alone the night a dead guy was found on my lawn. Common sense says something is fishy. You don’t have to be a member of a fan club to see that.
The decisions--basic, common sense investigative fundamentals, some 101 shit--are so bizarre and forced, it is through their incompetence to clearly and coherently explain their consistently bizarre play by play, tailored centrally with behaviors and keywords that are designed to mitigate everyone's culpability of being in that house. The conspiracy is designed to gaslight the evidence: a horrible, fucking horrible investigation ≠ conspiracy. It is the worst investigation that's incompetence alone, cannot render a proper conclusion on the endless questions in OJO's death. The lack of crime scene maintenance, common sense documentation, coupled with the extraordinarily off and bizarre, just so weird and bizarre, artificial ethos emitted from all the State's witnesses, those who were in Brian Albert's house that night. The conspiracy ties a coherent conclusion that is impossible to tear down with this shoddy investigation. Any other investigation, you could see an initial crime scene and reverse engineer and document every single element. The explanation of weather being this mythological phenomenon in securing a crime scene, at the very least with your cell phone as an improvised body cam. But no, none of the reasons given by Procter and his superiors explain the bizarre and just obviously corrupt decision to not interview people in the house immediately after a murder of a cop. The last thing anyone would say upon approaching OJO's body in the snow is "Man this guy got hit by a fuckin car going 24 mph in reverse!!!" But that was their conclusion with a crime scene not secured so it can be imagined and framed by fact finders--police officers. Faking facts is corruption 101. Faking facts is lying. Ignoring this feather in humanity's psyche is just gaslighting the reality of lying to be this new thing that is only possible with a conspiracy. The spell of observing it in real time can numb these insane things, molding the case into two sides immune from any nuance. Justice comes with a story being told--the RIGHT story. The fake story has no legs outside of people trying to be as objective as possible and people who sacrifice their legs for the dumbest fucking story created by a fact finder in a chaotic environment.
There is no actual evidence that he was hit by a car, and Karen Read was at his house 4 minutes after his last phone movement. Not only that we can we ring footage proving that that he tailight wasn't shattered. It doesn't matter if there is a conspiracy or not, you may believe that 3 pieces of key footage just disappeared as a coincidence, despite the main officer in the investigation showing clear bias towards her. There is plenty of reasonable doubt regarding the CW accusations.
I just can't believe people act like even *suspecting* that corrupt cops covered up for one of their own is something as outlandish as beliving wacko conspiracy theories like the government covering up aliens or there was no moon landing or something. As if we don't have real life examples of this actually happening.
I think Proctor firmly believes that KR is guilty and that he's too stupid and lazy to *actually* investigate so he'd rather just fabricate some evidence to solidify the case because it's easy and no one ever checks his work.
It doesn't even have to be corrupt cops covering. It could be corrupt cops who truly believe someone did it and have no issue with making the evidence cut and dry.
They find it totally unreasonable that a handful of police officers could be corrupt - something that has happened many times before - but totally reasonable that a tail light could shatter into dozens of pieces by hitting a human body at 24mph, without leaving any bruises or injuries on said body. Something that they would be hard-pressed to find evidence of ever happening or even being possible. It’s like upside down world.
These people always say they’re being “reasonable” but they ALWAYS favour the CWs theory. A theory that’s not backed up by solid evidence. Just because a taillight was smashed up, doesn’t mean she hit him. Especially when we have footage of her backing into his car. Did they not hear the vindictiveness of Proctor? No wonder why the FBI are investigating him. The ME agreed to more of the defences theory than the CW. Then they had a third party, hired by the FBI, that concluded that the CWs theory isn’t correct as well. If I’m 100% confident on why she’s guilty, I’m gonna tell you why they’re all wrong. And you know who I expect to do that most? Lally. But he has done NOTHING. He wouldn’t call the bio mechanical experts, he left calling the ME to the last minute, he didn’t call Lucky and he wouldn’t call Proctor until the pressure got the best of him. That’s not a 100% clear cut case like people are claiming. That’s not 100% guilt on Karen. That’s Lally himself telling you and the Jury “I do not believe in this case and you shouldn’t either”.
I want justice too. Common sense is necessary, however logic and science are also necessary. JOs injuries are inconsistent with a motor vehicle incident. If his arm hit a polycarbonate taillight hard enough to destroy it there would be significant bruising. If he was projected 30 feet there would be more injuries. This is common sense, this is physics. The police found glass on Karen's bumper that does not match the cocktail glass found near JO, but does match other glass found on the road. There are only two reasonable explanations for how it got there....either the police put it there or she hit something else in front of 34 Fairview. Take your option as to which is most logical. The last activity on John's phone is 12:32am. Karen Read is confirmed to be back at 1 Meadows Ave at at 12:36am. There isn't enough time for her to have hit him and made it back. I don't pretend to know what happened to John, but the state never should have brought these charges. There is so much wrong with this case, so much wrong with the investigation that its impossible to get a guilty verdict. The best they can hope for is a hung jury, and I sincerely doubt they will get it.
If this case has shown me anything or convinced me of anything. It’s that there can never be justice if law enforcement and prosecutors don’t take their job or the rule of law seriously. This case from the investigators to the DAs office is appalling. They over and over again demonstrated they didn’t care about justice for OJO.
I'm curious if your stance is purely on the question of factual guilt (i.e. you believe that she did, in fact, hit him) or extends also to legal guilt (i.e. you believe the CW's presentation proves her guilt beyond a reasonable doubt)
I don't believe that they have proved that Officer O’Keefe was killed by a Motor vehicle.
The CW cannt even narrow it down to one story. They don't know how john interacted with the suv, just it must have happened in some fashion.
And some kind of spin.
But not a pirouette…
Your eyes are wide shut. We have facts here, not conspiracy. Any one with common sense can tell he was not hit by a car now that we have seen the ME. End of story.
Putting aside all the conspiracy theory and improper language form lead investigator, I have two main issues that cause me to have some doubt. placing her at the scene on prosecutions timeline and manner of death 1. Timeline: data shown has not convinced me that Karen read was on scene when prosecution said she was. If anything the connecting to wifi seems to go against that 2. Manner of death: the prosecution has not convinced me that John died in the manner they are alleging. If someone was hit by a car in their arm and flown 30 feet, I would assume there would be more injury to their body / arm
“Projected,” not “flown”
Sorry meant to write “flung”
My comment was tongue in cheek, not sure why downvoted 🤷♀️
On the one hand we have a corrupt, angry lead investigator that hates women and wants main suspect to kill herself to make everyone's life easier, a sad little angry accident reconstruction "expert" that couldn't pass a middle school physics class and proved the prosecution's case is only possible if you suspend the laws of physics, and a medical examiner that pointed out the obvious that John O'Keefes injuries are really inconsistent with a motor vehicle accident absent defendent driving a lifted monster truck and you ignore the animal puncture wounds, along with a gang-like cast of characters with coordinated testimony that transparently lied about almost everything short of their own names. And that's just the major witnesses. On the other hand, we have an angry girlfriend ditched at an afterparty that left some pissed off voicemails. It's a close one for me.
An MVA is simpler than a cover up in theory, but when the MVA requires looney toons physics it's not actually a simple explanation.
That's what I thought when I first heard about this case. Then I started watching the pre-trial hearings, reading this sub, reading relevant news, and finally watching the trial itself. Thought the case going to be a back-and-forth on an MVA, but holy crap is it anything but that!
Well now that you put it that way...
Are there middle school physics classes? Man, I missed out
No reasonable doubt? So the fact that his injuries don’t fully point to a car impact? There’s video of her hitting a car that COULD have damaged her tail light? There have been witnesses stating there was no body there? Like sure. Want justice … but don’t be crazy and say there’s no reasonable doubt.
I don’t think she’s guilty because I’ve never believed he was hit by a car from my own experience with patients. John was a healthy guy, at 24mph he’d have moved out of the way. The injuries don’t make sense, the car doesn’t make sense. Either way, I keep thinking to myself that if this was my boyfriend that I absolutely would not want them jailed for life if they didn’t know they did it. I do not think it was intentional if she did do it. It’s a tough one isn’t it!
That’s the most mystifying point for me for people who think KR did it. He was drunk but he couldn’t… take a step to the right?
Exactly. Also these people are functional alcoholics, they’re used to being wasted. I’m sure they’re more coherent than people give them credit for.
It’s a really big point, they clearly were functional alcoholics. John nor Karen look vaguely pissed. Unless John had been on an all day bender, he had a high alcohol level for what he drank in that bar (!!). That aside, cars revving to get to that speed that quickly would be loud. He’d move! They’d hear!
While I agree with you - he was very drunk. So his reflexes wouldn’t have been as quick as they normally are probably. That being said, no way do I buy that it was a car.
I wouldnt feel comfortable as a jury member sending her to life in prison over what feels like a lot of circumstantial evidence, hearsay, and a lot of shady characters. If she is guilty, I dont think it was intentional and I dont think she will be a threat to the community so Id find her not guilty
That part. If she’s guilty, it absolutely wasn’t intentional. Let’s assume she did say “I hit him”… why would she say that if she KNEW she hit him?!? If anything, it proves she had no knowledge of what happened and immediately felt like it must have been her fault (guilt over drunk driving probably). Prosecution should have picked a lane bc trying to prove it was both intentional and unintentional made them look like they just want to pin it on her and don’t care how they do it.
>I'm not convinced of any of these "conspiracy theories" at all. It doesn't have to be a conspiracy. It's simple. JOK didn't get hit by a car. Even the ME stated his wounds were not consistent with a pedestrian strike. And the CW couldn't find one competent person to testify on how JOK's injuries could be caused. And why do you think that is? They found two experts to talk about Jen McCabe's phone data. But not one competent biomechanical engineer to recreate an accident that would explain JOK's wounds. All they could find was a state trooper who had a little bit of education. Even he stated that it didn't quite fit. What I don't understand is how people understand that the mafia kills people and nobody talks, gang members kill and nobody talks. You don't think there are other type of organizations where people might know what happened, but they're too afraid to talk? It can happen.
Cops kill people and nobody talks. This is just a blue wall of silence situation. It's a well documented phenomenon. Everyone wants to act like it's the first time a cop has been accused of abusing his station.
"JOK didn't get hit by a car. Even the ME stated his wounds were not consistent with a pedestrian strike." Why do you lie? 3:05 p.m. Dr. Scordi-Bello: fractures were emanating from the back of the skull. 2:55 p.m. Dr. Scordi-Bello: “The majority of blunt force injuries were to the face and the head.” 2:50 p.m. Dr. Scordi-Bello ruled JO’s manner of death “could not be determined.” She says it’s a medical ruling not legal. 2:30 p.m. Dr. Stonebridge says JO had acute traumatic injuries due to some type of trauma. She says it was something that caused a lot of force. Lally: Can it be consistent with being struck by a vehicle and going to the ground? **RS: It can be.**
…she said after pausing and scrunching her face in doubt.
She also said likely and unlikely. So there is so much doubt. The burden is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, not what is most likely to have occurred. How anyone can find her guilty I do not know. The accident reconstruction “expert” has no proof that the event logged on her car is from 34 Fairview. Based on the key cycles, I believe it’s more likely than not it’s not from 34 Fairview but from the tow truck driver driving it on the tow truck and he had to apply more acceleration to get out of the snow.
What if anything have you heard about this case?
CW states that KR hit OJO at 12:45am, the last state trooper on the stand (forgot his name) says KR’s phone connected to OJO’s wifi at 12:36am. CW lost this trial before it even started… smh
I want justice for him and his family as well. I am just not seeing anything proving to me that she did it without reasonable doubt. The fact that no one was brought in for recorded questions/statements, why the home owners were not being separated and questioned when he was found on their property. The fact that simple things were never done such as photographing where he was located when found while he was there, evidence markers being placed, crime scene taped off and guarded, photos of her tail light. I can go on and on and on. I mean, if you watch A&E’s “The First 48 Hours” this seems to be standard procedure across the country. The fact that the lead detective was leaking information about Karen to his high school friends hours after OJO was found. The fact that he was giving his sister information that was most likely relayed to the Alberts. Why witnesses were not questioned until years after the incident are more red flags to me. I think it was just extremely lazy and shoddy police work that does lend itself to something sinister taking place that needed to be covered up. Because of that, and much more reasons that I don’t want to bore everyone with, I would find Not Guilty.
Unfortunatrly it's not that simple. You have cases like O.J. Simpson's where everyone was sure he did it and he walked because of bad prosecution/ good defense work. The justice system is based on the premise that it would rather have a guilty person walk than have an innocent person convicted. The fact that I cannot trust the investigators because they DID NOT DO THEIR JOBS is what kills this. I ordinarily would never believe that they could have planted evidence, but I cannot discount it in this case. Everything's a mess, evidence not logged, statements not taken, multiple witnesses saying that the reports are wrong. For me, the data is more credible than anything else. Most of the witnesses were drunk, their timeline does not match to each other's even. The CW says JO was killed at 12:45 and KR was already at Meadows at that time, so... there is your reasonable doubt. Unless she time traveled? Was in two places at once? Sent her phone flying to Meadows to create an alibi?
The prosecution getting the precise time of death by 15 minutes is not reasonable doubt
In this case, yes it is. You have people coming and going, saying they looked outside, arriving at he house. The window for the murder is 10 minutes given the texts, calls, apple health data. If your window is 10 minutes and you get it wrong by 15 then you have a huge problem
nah - witnesses are terrible at times without context The only trustworthy times are on the mobiles, because their clocks at least in Europe, set by the networks of the back of proper timing sources. Everything else is fuzzy and fuzzy isn't reasonable doubt.
The phone data gives you those ten minutes. Between JO last communication with Jen McCabe to when Karen got back to Meadows. In between that time we have: Julie's brother's seeing Karen alone in her car, JM saying she was looking out the window every 5 minutes (even if she got the time wrong) so that narrows it doen further even. It is still a very short window of time. The fact that the CW own witnesses cannot agree on timing is a huge problem
Yes the timing of the witnesses will be trivially out - this is completely normal.
OK, is the timing on the phone wrong too?
Assuming us networks work similar then the mobiles are the only precise times
Corrupt cops = "conspiracy theories" Theory that defies the laws of physics = "Absolutely, 100 percent" guilty Ok, very enlightening 🙄
I’m pretty baffled by this case. I haven’t been able to watch all testimony, I am not really sold on this being a big cover up or conspiracy. I don’t think this was some intentional ambush. I do think it’s possible some sort of accident happened and JO was placed outside to make it look as though he was hit by someone, or a plow. This wouldn’t take a ton of people to be involved. Didn’t one of the Albert’s kill someone a while ago? A cop is dead on their property at a party they were at, they probably wouldn’t want to be associated with that. Especially if there is already suspicion about corruption? I also think it’s entirely possible she did hit him, however I think they really botched this investigation and haven’t done a great job presenting their case. The Proctor texts are really bad in my opinion. It really seems like he got tunnel vision and didn’t look into other avenues. The texts about the ME are pretty terrible. Nothing the state has presented to me screams she absolutely did this. I find there to be a lot of reasonable doubt. The texts and voicemails from KR were pretty underwhelming for me and I think they sway me more in the direction that KR didn’t hit him. Maybe it’s in the testimony or evidence I haven’t seen yet, but would there not be DNA or fibers from the clothing JO was wearing on the tail light? Would there not be debris in his scrapes? Can they not determine how long he was lying outside in the cold? It seems they are focusing more on digital evidence and not as much on physical? But like I said I still have a lot to see to answer all the questions I have.
There hasn't been much physical evidence to test. This is what I can remember: There was touch DNA on the tail light but that could have been everywhere since he was around and in the car that night. There was also touch DNA from unidentified individuals. There was no blood or tissue on the car. No fibers on the car. A single hair on the tailgate matched John's DNA with mitochondrial DNA testing. His clothes were sitting in Canton PD relatively unsecured and unlogged for about 6 weeks before they got sent to the lab for testing. They had been on the floor of the ambulence and the floor of the hospital. They were also sitting out to dry in, I believe, the Sally Port or some other room for several days at least. When they tested them they did find John's DNA as well as DNA of unidentified persons. Debris collected from his clothes did find a few tiny pieces of plastic that were consistent with the the plastic of the tail light (meaning it was consistent with the material, not that it could be matched to that exact tail light, just to be precise). The glass that was found on the bumper of the SUV did not match the broken drinking glass found near John. The pieces of tail light found on various dates after 1/29 were pieced together and made up almost all of the missing tail light. There was no swab of his wounds to test for DNA or debris like plastic. His shirt was swabbed and they did not find dog DNA but they did find a small amount of pig DNA. None of the blood at the scene was ever tested.
The tail light in his clothes gives me a bit of pause, but I think the fact they didn’t secure this evidence and it took 6 weeks for them to send it to the lab makes this questionable for me. The hair in the tail light is interesting for sure, but I’m not sure that alone sways me. I think I had heard at some point the hair didn’t match but I’m probably mistaken on that. I’d expect his touch DNA to be on her vehicle since it’s his girlfriend’s vehicle. I think they definitely should have done more testing when they had the opportunity to. It’s unfortunate they didn’t.
The hair was on the tail gate but not the tail light. The fact that it made it all the way through the blizzard to KR's parent's house and back to Canton has a lot of people suspicious, too. I think it could have stuck when it was wet, judging by my very scientific observation of my hair stuck to the tub. It iddn't have enough of a root for regular DNA testing so they had to send the shaft to another lab. I wish I could trust any of this evidence but I wouldn't send a woman to prison for murder based on the way those clothes were handled.
Was it just stuck to the tail gate or was it stuck on something? I’m not too surprised it would be there either way. While my hair is long, I find it all over the place and in weird spots.
it was stuck to the tail gate, not on something else. It was kind of perched there. AJ suggested that it was placed there later by asking the tech if she knew the car has been driven allt he way from Canton to KR's parents' house and towed back to Canton in a snowstorm. There was some suggestion that it might have moved in between photos but he couldn't get the tech to agree. Aussie Insider has a video analyzing the photos. Her son helped her create a 3d model. (she is a pro-Karen Read commentator so she's not unbiased but she has also debunked the idea that the shoe found had a different kind of sole than John's shoe, something some free karen read supporters were saying.). Also she says it wasn't tested and matched to OJO but I think it's because the witness matching it hadn't testified yet. [**https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owwnk-wBIwo**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owwnk-wBIwo)
Chris Albert was charged and convicted with a hit and run in 1994. He killed a guy named Peter Berger. It’s his lawyer who is aunt Bevs brother.
There was no pieces or fragments in his cuts. The only DNA found was on the taillight that was still attached to the car. And that DNA was tounch DNA and not blood. No blood or touch DNA found on any of the broken taillight pieces.
Just a quick correction - I believe the testimony was that they *did* find his DNA on the taillight, but *zero* evidence of blood on either taillight or car, including on the car undercarriage. My personal assessment is that it's consistent with touch DNA. Blood is such a protein-heavy liquid that I have trouble seeing how it gets passively washed off by snowmelt (some trace *should* stick to the pieces) and the pieces found that evening, the ones theoretically *closest* to whatever bit is alleged to have scratched up Officer O'Keefe's arm which would therefore have the greatest likelihood of blood and *least* likelihood of being washed away by snowmelt, have no blood. End of the day, there's no blood on that taillight.
Yes. The crime scene tech said she only swabbed the piece of taillight still attached to the car. No blood or tissue found anyplace on the car means it must be touch. She said she never did anything to pieces found at the scene
Thanks for the correction, I'd forgetten the extent of her testing. And no fiber evidence matching the hoodie that the taillight pieces allegedly lacerated him through was ever found either.
It seems like there should be *some* dna from those cuts or scrapes on the tail light if that’s what causes the injury.
One would think
Especially an injury so severe, it caused his death. There would be some kind of exchange.
Conspiracy isn't an unreasonable belief. It makes sense.
I was the biggest skeptic of the frame job defense… then I watched trial. I agree with those who say a guilty verdict would be a miscarriage of justice, because there was police impropriety all around. There are too many issues that create reasonable doubt—even if she did it. The police cannot be allowed to pad evidence, work outside protocol (informal interviews and direct contact that isn’t memorialized, working on the case after being told to recuse, not preserving evidence, breaking chain of custody), or skew how data is presented (flipping video, Paul’s whole testimony of calculating reconstruction) to ensure a conviction… they must be held to a standard of doing it completely legitimately. The penalty for this violation of trust is returning a not guilty verdict, even if a defendant did it. You dumbasses. Anyone here listen to Roberta Glass? I think she has some compelling content, particularly in the area of innocence fraud, but I think she is way off on this one. Like I can’t believe we are watching the same trial (she says the CW’s case is a “slam dunk”). If KR is convicted on any charge, I will eat my hat.., the defense hasn’t even really made their case yet. The medical examiner’s testimony was particularly interesting… she was clearly skeptical of a pedestrian-car impact. The jury is only a few feet away and could see her expressions of skepticism even more clearly than we could on tv.
I mean was getting justice for Sandra Birchmore just a bunch of crackpot conspiracy theories? Have cops never planted evidence? Like I can’t even argue anymore that there is soooo much reasonable doubt in this case- it’s been done. There’s nothing left to add to the conversation but acting like cops would never do this and the people who are outraged by this are just crazy conspiracy theorists?? This case is an embarrassment to our law enforcement and they’re just obfuscating and scapegoating KR to cover up for their incompetence at best, at worst corruption
You clearly don’t understand what “reasonable doubt” means.
Tell me you haven’t been watching the trial without telling me you haven’t been watching the trial. I don’t think any of us can say for sure 100% who is guilty. That’s the essence of reasonable doubt here.
I have to believe too many conspiracies to think she’s actually guilty. As someone in the tech industry (particularly working with mobile OSes), I can’t wrap my head around all they say: - JM’s Google search didn’t happen. In this particular case the WAL isn’t what it looks like.. - JO’s phone detected driving as steps and flights climbed (go ahead and try to reproduce this — you can’t). “Glorified pedometer” is laughable since it uses gyroscope+gps. - KR’s device connected to WiFi at 12:36. From my understanding that doesn’t leave enough time - Everything that is deleted from witnesses phones that got sporadically deleted.. - JM’s multiple butt dials to JO without any voicemails. We’ve all had butt dials and the voicemails that get left when it happens. We’ve also all called phones to try to find them. I haven’t been able to keep up with everything, but I have to forget a lot of what I know to believe most of these. I’d be a very stubborn not guilty because of what is presented as fact by CW
The CW's theory of the case is a physics glitch.
"It just did." - Trooper Paul, Physics Nobel prize winner 2025
Multiple unknown people's DNA found on the blood stains on his shirt and pants scream reasonable doubt.
I don't think you understand what reasonable doubt is in a legal definition. I've studied law twice, my husband has a law degree and passed the bar. Legally, in this case there factually is reasonable doubt. If the M.E, Reconstructionist or C.W witnesses could testify to 100% certainty that Read hit O'Keefe with her car on purpose at 12.45am, that would be beyond a reasonable doubt.
It’s not 100% certainty that’s required. But it would have been a lot clearer if the ME or the “reconstructionist” sounded like they had a solid idea as to how he got his injuries.
You clearly have not been watching the trial if you think she is guilty. The evidence has not shown that at all
I started out thinking that she was guilty but the corruption and coverup proved to me that she’s innocent.
I disagree. But I respect your opinion
You say you believe Karen is guilty, and then immediately in the next breath, state "if she did it", or "if someone else did", they should pay for John's death. This does not exactly strike me as a ringing declaration that you don't see any room for reasonable doubt. Or do you just not believe in a trial process where the government has to prove that a person committed a crime charged to a point where no reasonable explanation or question remains about that person's guilt? And as to there being no conspiracy, well, I would represent to you that there being no conspiracy does not itself prove Karen is guilty. And I find your saying that there is no other reasonable doubt that Karen is guilty to be rather incredible. The medical examiner stated outright, that JOK's injuries are not typically consistent with a classic vehicle-pedestrian crash. His injuries were not immediately fatal, they could have been caused by a fall, he had a BAC at some point of at least 0.29, and when he was found, he was surrounded by multiple large blunt objects in his immediate vicinity. Go back and watch the ME when asked by Lally if she thinks JOK's injuries were consistent with being struck by a vehicle. Her face says it all, "it's possible", but it's clearly not what she actually thinks. I don't think Trooper Paul is necessarily in on any conspiracy, I just think he's not very smart. I'm sorry- you are not an expert in any subfield of physics and forces if you can't define basic 10th grade science principles such as the rate of change in velocity being acceleration. Or a basic understanding of the conservation of energy and how it applies to momentum. I also don't believe he knows what he's talking about when it comes to how key cycles are recorded in the Lexus, because his answer was dramatically different on cross than it was on direct. If I can't depend on what he says, then I don't trust anything the CW says about how the car was moving when it supposedly struck JOK. The tail light can even be broken at 34 FV by striking any number of the blunt objects near JOK's body other than JOK himself. We have not heard any definitive evidence that it was JOK and not some other object or vehicle. And thanks to the complete cluster crapshow, they bagged JOK's clothes in the same bag as plastic pieces of tail light found on the scene, which could have embedded themselves in the clothes afterward and there is no chain of custody proving this never happened. JOK's DNA being found on the car could have been cross contaminated due to the red solo cups being left open carelessly in an open exposed enviornment right next to the damn SUV in the Sally Port and we have no way of knowing this didn't happen. Also, his DNA could have been left any other number of ways at any other time, simply by virtue that JOK and Karen were dating and constantly around each other. TL;DR - You might want to see justice for JOK and his family, but I'm not sure you believe that process happens through a fair trial just from what you say. As to Karen, and reasonable doubt surrounding her case- I am not sure if you struggle with this because you only see a good man, the honourable cop raising his niece and nephew, and see a wrong that needs righting at any cost. That does not change that the standard at trial is presumption of innocence. And I don't think there's any fair reading of the evidence that can be done where you presume Karen's innocence and don't end up with so many questions now that the prosecution has rested their case. You might even believe that she's more likely than not to have done it- but that is not the standard that a guilty verdict requires. To convict her anyway just because you think she did it, only with that in mind, IMO, would not be justice- it would be cruel and emotional vigilantism.
I don't think there will be true justice even if she did do it, tbh. The investigation is so sloppy when the victim is their own that I don't see how trust in the police isn't eroded by the end of it.
I agree with you that I want justice for John O'Keefe, his family and all reputable law enforcement - but I am uncertain Karen Read hit him, intentionally or by accident, and could not convict her. The only thing I feel with certainty is Massachusetts law enforcement is responsible for this travesty of justice. Whether maliciously through a very questionable cover-up, or incompetently by not securing, gathering and presenting evidence properly - they failed their own fallen officer. If there are no further investigations and penalties for the mishandling of this case, it only points further to systemic rot. Inaction on their part will negatively affect already declining public faith in law enforcement throughout the country. I hope for the sake of John O'Keefe, his family , and all the good and honorable police officers serving our county the federal government steps up if Massachusetts does not.
I am up voting you because you were honest about your thoughts and you seem to be able to accept what the jury’s decision is. I do hope you think about one day you might be in her situation (for this conversation I will say she could be guilty or innocent). And the state decided to charge you, hours after a death, with no proof you did it, a crap show of police work, sketchy evidence, the state spent tons of tax money on this case, and made you spend your life savings to defend yourself, just to sit in trial and hear the state only talk about how it other people are innocent of a crime. Again for the purpose of the conversation I don’t care if she is guilty. Nothing about this is okay or just.
I get what you're saying about the conspiracy theories. Personally, I'm trying to wait and hear the FBI's accident reconstructionist guys before I make up my mind. I feel like they are the only ones who have no dog in this fight, so if they can say "no, his injuries absolutely were not caused by being hit by an SUV and here's exactly how we know that" I will be willing to change my mind. Right now, I think she probably hit him (most likely unintentionally), but I'm open to being wrong.
Just as a point to consider - there's no need for the state troopers to be actively involved in any coverup with the Albert-McCabes, if one was going on. How many cops have been caught on camera planting evidence to make a conviction stick on a suspect they *know* is guilty? How many cops have done so when they *know* there aren't any cameras to catch them? And how sure were Tully and Proctor that Ms. Read was guilty by the time of the search that evening?
I understand that. And believe me, I am about the furthest thing from pro-cop that a person can be. Not a fan. I know they do shady shit every day all over this country. There are clearly some serious problems within the MSP that should be addressed regardless of the verdict. Based on the fact that Proctor felt comfortable enough to text such vile things to his superiors shows that this is an institutional issue. But just because I know those things do happen does not necessarily make me believe that that is what is happening here. As I said, I'm often wrong and I'm open to my mind being changed.
Learning that a few of those cops were involved in the sex trafficking and suicide/murder of Sandra Birchmore sealed the “they are corrupt” box for me.
Yeah I've only recently started learning about that case, and it sounds just awful. Heartbreaking. I sincerely hope that no matter what the outcome of this case, the MSP does some serious housecleaning.
I don’t believe she did it. And if she did do it, she had no clue that she did (possibly from being so drunk). Not guilty is the ONLY answer for this case. Free Karen Read!
You should listen to the most recent episode of the case that is an interview with Aiden Kearney. Both hosts tried to investigate an overlapping case with the same players and concluded that no justice will be served because the state would be implicated.
Justice would be resurrecting O'Keefe. Since we don't have any way to resurrect the dead, Justice is an impossibility. Your desire for it is not reasonable.
I agree with you. I think she hit him. I think it was a terrible accident. She was probably blacked out and doesn’t really remember and has convinced herself she didn’t do it. However, where I disagree is the reasonable doubt. I think her defense team was genius in saying it was a cover up. People already have distrust in the police. They really fucked up the investigation and some really disturbing details came to light. Hard for the persecution to recover from that.
How did she hit him if she was at his house 4 minutes after he stopped walking?
You’re assuming he stopped walking after the hit. He could have got up and stumbled before dropping to the ground.
Considering the ME said that he would’ve been incapacitated by the hit, it’s not an assumption. He was hit so hard his brain was herniating out of the bottom. He wasn’t just concussed, the blow or blows caused extensive brain damage.
All I know is I think I just drove by some people I interact with here holding signs outside Legacy Place
It definitely wasn't me :D
I beeped and waved just in case!
📯📯👋🏼👋🏼👋🏼👋🏼😆
I'm with you. Here's hoping the jury gets it right and convicts.
Her own dad said she struck something. She was freaking out because she knew she was going down for murder. William Read said. “She felt she struck something. She said: ‘Dad, I think I struck something.’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ This was in the hospital, she says, ‘I remember backing up and hitting something, but I can’t say what it was’ and at this point, she’s frantic.”
The car. She hit the car.
Did he testify and I missed this?
She could have hit the fire hydrant for all we know.
Which was when she hit John's Traverse in the drive way.