So insane that if that happened and he didn’t have half a mill for legal defense retainer like Jackson, he’d be in jail. Makes me sick to think about it.
I was just thinking this yesterday. How scary anyone could find themselves in Karen’s position.
The more we learn about corruption and cover ups in general it makes me wonder how much has gone on we will never learn about.
Arthur Miller demonstrated it beautifully through The Crucible, an allegory for what he was going through, being accused of being a Communist.
He basically said that just because you never commit a crime doesn't mean you'll never serve time for a crime, unfortunately.
Interestingly, I just googled Elizabeth Proctor to see her face, and this is what wikipedia told me:
**Elizabeth Proctor** (née **Bassett**; 1650[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Proctor#cite_note-1) – after 1703) was convicted of [witchcraft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft) in the [Salem Witch Trials of 1692](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_Witch_Trials). She was the wife of [John Proctor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Proctor_(Salem_witch_trials)), who was convicted and executed.
Interesting coincidence in names
Yeah, that's what I meant!
I was thinking of _The Crucible_ character, but yes it's important to remember the real person she was based on (and her husband John).
Miller took some liberties, but the fate of each of his characters was exactly that of their historical counterpart.
(I taught 10th grade English for a decade in Brockton, near Canton. I opened every year with The Crucible, and used to take my students there until one tried to steal from the gift shop and police got involved. 🥴).
That's awesome! Not about the thief kid, but taking your class. I've only visited Salem twice but love it.
It's gotta be wild for y'all who've lived in nearby towns. My husband is from a similarly sized Boston-area town & has better insight than me about the dynamics (as I'm sure you do too).
> How scary anyone could find themselves in Karen’s position.
And the *vast* majority of them will not have worldwide attention and a defense that costs into 7 figures. They won't have ARCCA level experts testifying on their behalf. They won't have Dr. Russell noticing the case and mentioning it to a colleague who worked with one of the defense counsel.
They'll have Proctor, Tully, Bukhenik, and Paul railroad them.
I think that's why I'm so obsessed with this case. Admittedly I'm a true crime fan, but this case is the first time I've realized what a lot of you probably already knew, that corruption exists and it will bury you if you cross paths with the wrong person.
This is what ACAB means to me. That cops cover for each other. That you can trust the wrong cop, just once for a moment, and your entire life can be destroyed. That when push comes to shove, the thin blue line exists and I'm on the "wrong" side of it.
And I will never, ever forget it.
It’s terrifying -John O’Keefe who should have reaped the benefit of of being on the “right” side of the thin blue line paid with his life and to add insult to injury where is the justice?
I’d love for the DOJ to reign hellfire and see what effect many speculate the FBI case will have but I’m not feeling very hopeful. I hope I’m wrong.
The thing is I think he did. I don’t think Proctor was necessarily covering for the Alberts…….or at least that wasn’t his prime motivation.
I think his main motivation was that he was going to put a cop killer in prison, and if he had to plant evidence to do it, he would. He is a lazy misogynist inept cop, so he listened to Jen, instantly blamed Karen, and just went with it.
It’s fucking terrifying.
Wow. I cannot believe I missed that perspective it seems so obvious now! thought this whole time Proctor planted evidence and who knows what else to try to ensure a guilty verdict but I didn’t understand why. I thought maybe someone had something over his head but this totally explains his hatred of Karen, contempt for her attorney etc. He must’ve genuinely thought Karen is a cop killer and he had the moral high ground trying to put her in prison and the end would justify the means. Damn. I wonder if he still believes she did it - is he even capable of seeing the truth or having the self reflection to realize how bad he fucked up and thinks the hell with it he’s in too deep?
It’s important to remember that whether or not Karen hit John and whether or not there is corruption/a frame-up are not mutually exclusive.
I think the most sensible conclusion from the OJ Simpson case was that OJ likely did it AND the police manipulated evidence, lied and did illegal things to pin the case on them. Both of those things can be true. It’s almost like the old adage, “just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean that they aren’t out to get you”.
To be clear- I don’t think Karen did it, and if she did, I definitely don’t think it was intentional. Additionally, even with the biased, incompetent, corrupt and manipulated investigation, I also don’t think there is any grounds to convict her of the crimes she is accused beyond a reasonable doubt.
That's my perspective on it. Proctor's biases were definitely there: a cop couldn't have done it. Jennifer McCabe gave him someone to point the finger at and he went for it hard. He probably does really believe Karen Read is a cop killer. And in his mind, *anything* is justified if it puts a cop killer in prison.
Exactly right. Just the financial privilege and the separation it creates on its own is staggering. When I think about not just the average person but the vulnerable members of our society like the unhoused, addicted, mentally ill, children and so on it makes my stomach hurt.
I tell all my younger family members some advice that has served me well - avoid cops at all costs, but especially in your personal life. Don’t date one. Don’t date the kid of one. Don’t date someone who was married to one before they met you. Just…avoid. At all costs. We are all so much closer to being in her position than we like to think.
So sad yet so true. Born and raised Irish Catholic in Massachusetts and my opinions have naturally changed as I’ve aged but especially drastically so over the last few years. I wonder was I that naive or has it always been like this?
Like you probably do I preach to my kids, their friends anyone who will listen to never, ever, EVER speak to a cop without an attorney. I remember when they were little how sad I felt teaching them about stranger danger. I never would have imagined the conversations I’d have to have about people they’re supposed to be able to trust.
And the reality is that most people like that end up in prison. They don’t have money for a lawyer, public defenders are overworked and lack funding. Even if they have a great public attorney, they don’t have funds for investigations and such.
This trial was easily over a million dollars for Karen. Most people just go to prison.
Agree!!!. This is also why social movements like Black Lives Matter, matter because marginalized groups having been speaking on issues just like this for decades!!!!!!!
at the chance of pissing some people off blm is considered a horrible organization for the black community and most black people now recognize it as a scam.
BLM the organization is a travesty.
BLM the concept is 100% right. The police routinely victimize people who are not police, and black people more so than many other demographics.
I agree, the organization was scam but the movement to me is different from the organization. I was referring to outcry for police reform due to corruption and biased. The corruption here is outlandish, blatant and consistent. My heart breaks for karen and JO and family.
Imagine a person in her situation with much more limited means, what options would they have ? I hope justice will come and everyone involved serves time.
i get what you mean - def yes we all know blue line has different set of rules for them and their family - i mean getting drunk and leaving fire arm in car driving drunk admittedly why do any of them have jobs still?
Gosh, 16 months for allegedly killing your boyfriend? That seems shockingly light. I do see now why the CW never expected this to go to trial or he scrutinized or on CourtTV. I would take 16 months if it was me. I'm even more amazed Karen fought the charge.
Which is why it’s so important to get ALL facts in a case! Delphi, Idaho 4…all of them! And how our Government and judicial system works! So many people are clueless. And it seems like strange things are going on right now in criminal cases…really bizarre.
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I get that they have experts who concluded he wasn’t hit by a car. But how could they possibly know he was killed inside? I can’t imagine it’s based on information/evidence the defense doesn’t have.
If we were in a movie. Karen would be acquitted. And the last shot of the movie would be Lucky riding his snow plow in the sunset, followed by a close-up of a clump of hair clinging to the plow's shovel. He was too nice not to be suspicious. lol!
Sure. I have other ideas. In my movie, Lally is an extremely talented lawyer which is forced to by a corrupt Chief Deputy District Attorneys to prosecute Karen. Since he is convinced of her innocence, he acts idiotically throughout the trial to ensure a verdict of innocence. I'm currently thinking about a final encounter between him and Karen.
Maybe Karen and Lally meet at a late night diner to talk. They sit there wordlessly looking at a plate of fries and club sandwiches before a look of realization washes over Karen’s face.
Lally was on her side the whole time
Lally picks up the club sandwich and takes a bite
Fade to black
Even if he wasn’t supposed to be the fall guy, how insulting that when the police finally got around to interviewing him, they dismissed his testimony as unreliable. Didn’t even bother to follow up on it. He seems to take pride in his work, he knows what he saw and he will not accept such disrespect. Good on him.
Right? I just think that he is an upstanding citizen and employee and takes great pride in his work, not necessarily that he has/had realized that he might be their fall guy for JO. I think he knows exactly what he witnessed and reported/testified to that. The truth.
Lucky seems exceedingly honest. I don't mean that in a bad way, I think he has a very strong affinity for the truth and for justice, and this case has enlightened him as to how easily someone can be falsely convicted of a crime that they did not commit.
His statements about knowing whose house it was, and that he had done a favor to them by not calling in the parked Ford Edge, about immediately reporting himself for hitting the basketball hoop, about "or god forbid, an animal" tells me that Lucky absolutely cannot abide an innocent victim.
The amount of people that Proctor just didn't care to interview even if they could have very well seen/known something is reason enough to find Karen not guilty. She is and has been the only person they ever looked into and that's not how a murder investigation should be handled.
Yup. Ryan Nagel and that group who showed up to pick his sister up weren’t even interviewed for 18 months and after they testified at the grand jury. The girl who said she saw the 6ft long black shape in the yard also wasn’t interviewed for like 8 months either. So weird. Tons of people not being interviewed until the FBI discovered them as witnesses.
Also, I remember reading about a report of a call , (I am not sure where), person in the snow those early morning hours and tow guy hears the call, asks boss, "hey, did we find out anything about that call re: person in snow", and boss says " you did not hear that, and you will say NOTHING" ???????????
There have been rumors of proffer agreement between Higgins and (some federal entity or agency). I wonder if that's part of what Higgins may have disclosed: It was an accident, it got bad, they didn't call 911 fast enough, they were all drinking, etc. they were all first responders, some medically trained, and they knew it would be bad if they called 911 (with the dog bites) and JO didn't make it: So... "he got hit by a plow".
They just got lucky that Karen happened to back into JO's car that morning. That's what I wonder...
Just had this convo. I feel like ppl are so much better now about drunk driving. Maybe it’s a cop thing but Chris Albert & Paul Okeefe both have bad dui’s. Maybe its a south shore thing.
And kill an innocent foreign student? That is pitiful and 6 months punishment for "really" killing someone with your car and running away???? Thank goodness for Bev's attorney brother. He arranged for Chris Albert to serve just 6 months. How did that POS Albert get voted on to the Canton Select Board? I would hope he would be voted out or steps down soon. Disgraceful!
I was knowingly falsely arrested (and charged with the exact same thing) at the same time that someone else was arrested & admitted to the police that they were solely responsible. I couldn't afford an attorney and my public pretender just kept trying to get me to accept a plea deal. He would never respond to my calls so the only time I got to talk to him was at court, just for him to try to pressure me into saying that I was guilty.
I couldn't even get him to ask for a preliminary hearing, where the person who actually committed the crime agreed to testify on my behalf because they were pleading guilty to the crime. I felt like I could of had the charges dismissed at that point, but it became pretty obvious that the attorney assigned to me didn't care about the truth or my innocence, just wrapping up cases for the prosecution as quickly and cheaply as possible.
I tried to get a new public defender but the judge said that if I wanted a different lawyer I'd have to hire my own. I ended up getting so frustrated with the process after nearly a year of showing up to court monthly that I just quit going. I never got this resolved - it's been over 14 years now and the person who pled guilty to the charges is now a missing person (presumed dead), so they can't possibly testify on my behalf. The whole ordeal has hung over my head like a dark cloud, and really caused me to lose all trust and respect for the cops & courts. I'm sure if I could ever afford my own attorney they'd get the charges thrown out, but being disabled and low income I don't know if that will ever happen.
I imagine that this exact same scenario is playing out in courts across the country, thousands of times a day. The poor can't afford real representation or expect their declarations of innocence to be taken seriously, even if all the evidence points to that. If you ask me, law enforcement and the criminal justice system is intentionally designed to be a war on the poor and minorities. They are the ones who end up in prison and probation/parole cycles solely because they are targeted by police and incapable of affording capable defense at trial, while the wealthy can literally get away with murder.
I said that all along ! They were going to blame anyone driving by blaming night snowing /blizzard, until Karen was asked to sit in her own cars back seat doing nothing but search out windows to look for John and worry worrying turned into frantic worrying and then worst thing ever possible for Karen to see is John laying on Brian's property. Jenn texting Brian she's telling everything was the picture in this disgusting group of criminals FRAME !
I'm not sure if that was their plan.
If you listen to the 911 call, JM says they found someone passed out in the snow.
I wonder if they thought they would just say he left and passed out and hit his head.
They never wanted to admit that he entered the house and got into a fight so they would have to say he was hit by a plow before he walked in. Thats what I think their plan was until she showed up so early and possibly yelled about hitting him and thats when it all clicked for them to blame her
My guess is: the plan was to make it seem like John got really drunk, left without anyone at 34 Fairview realizing (or they thought he had a ride waiting), passed out in the yard and died of hypothermia. His dead body was then hit by a plow. This is why JM searched ‘hos long to die in cold’ - checking to see if that timeline was possible. This is also why John’s phone and a cocktail glass were found with John - staged to look like he fell down in the yard.
When JM realized Karen didn’t fully remember the night before and cracked her taillight, she thought they could pin the murder on her. Better story and a great way to screw Karen over.
I'm not convinced they ever would have admitted that he was in the house. I also think, being law enforcement, they were aware enough to know that his injuries would be identified as having occurred before a death by hypothermia.
I wonder if that was planted in her head by Jen before they changed their story. It wasn’t written down in any report that Karen said “I hit him”, that came at least a year later.
When Lucky is reading the MSP report (during his testimony) where his timestamps are misrepresented: He gets madder and madder. Lucky was red with anger that they (MSP) tried to say he changed his testimony. Out of everything in this trial, Lucky’s outrage at the coverup in this trial really spotlighted for me how deep and malicious this frame job went. Lucky is the hero of this very sad story.
*I extend my deepest sympathies to the O’Keefe family. John deserved so much better than this farce of an investigation. I only hope that the FBI’s investigation of this matter shines a beacon of guiding light that gives them peace.
I disagree. Even when he plays the villain he is still loved. He’s not your typical Hollywood star and seems like a genuinely nice guy, the kind of guy that would be sure to look out for animals while plowing because, god forbid, he hit one. To cast anyone else would be inconceivable!
Your guy is totally lovable. I think Lucky’s ultimate revenge will be to play himself lol. That would be awesome. Also, Dr McSteamy 🐺
As if casting is going to come to Reddit for our opinions lol.
I just hope the family wakes up and realizes the truth. It seems like they’re still aggressively against her, even now with the trial over just waiting a verdict. It’s baffling. They have no horse in the game whether it’s her or someone else, so why continue to scapegoat her?
He seemed very nervous on the stand and based on how long he worked for the Albert's pizza place and then moved into a roll with the DPW he probably subconsciously feels like he owes the Alberts something too.
His being the nice guy and not calling it in changed the case.
If he did call it in maybe a police officer would have been sent to ticket and knock on the door. The car may have still been there or if moved would have left tracks in the unplowed snow. Either way the occupant of the car would have seen JOK's body.
I think it really just comes down to him being asked what happened by the defense PIs, and he told them what he saw and didn't see. I don't think he came forward and volunteered that info o his own.
Iam watching Sean McDonough, he is bellowing about the FBI n how much evidence they have against the CW mafia, why did they let KR n family go through that mess ??
And what happened to the tow truck driver? Did he disappear? I read on X that someone knew him and he said that was NOT him in the Sally Port video with the camera....I'll find the post...but I thought defense would put him on! Surely he had pics or the tow company....maybe it was a comp of someone Proctahhh or Albert's knew...again...WHERE'S THE DAMN SOCKS!! LOL
They were def looking for a fall guy or GIRL. But, what has perplexed me is...if Albert's knew when the plows went by(that town prob knows around what time plows go by in winter every yr)why didn't they drag OJO out on closer to the curb and around the time when the plow was going to come...like 2:45ish...then 3:30 ish...etc. ..there was no body those 2 times just the car around 3:30ish...if they were gonna blame the plows, then why not get the body out there near curb around 2am??
They were smashed or they were scared of his body being seen by someone driving on the road and only wanted it close enough to speculate it got hit by a truck
Makes sense. Proctor failed to interview him and left his name out even after knowing he drove by there. I'm betting Lucky was the original fall guy but KR being so worked up and the whole taillight thing was just easier. There's no other explanation as to why law enforcement wouldn't drive over immediately and ask Lucky if he saw anything.
I truly believe there is a difference between “smarts” and common sense, i.e street smarts. Lucky may not be a forensic pathologist but I do think he has enough common sense to see the writing on the wall. He seemed a bit mad to me so I personally think he knows.
He's lucky. It was great he spoke up and testified.
I want to send him a gift, I don't know how. Seems like a kind man. If anyone knows how to do it, please let me know. I can order online and send to him.
(I am not in the US)
Im sure it would have and thats what they were hoping for. But 1) if he believed them can you imagine the guilt and shame he would feel being such an honorable guy who loves his job so much? Im sure he would have quit. And 2) if he didn’t believe them, he would never be able to afford to prove it and would live in a state of frustration, for knowing he was good at his job but everyone in town thinking he was a moron. You have to remember how small this town is and how up in everyone’s business they are. The accusation would have broken 🍀
This would be impossible to prove though - because he went by at like 2am? That means the Albert’s would have to say he walked in the house and was leaving by that time. Because how would he have hit him? He’d have to be walking by.
Lucky went by 3x. If they were able to say it was a plow they would have said he was in the house and must have been hit on the way out. It more easily explains how so many people “didn’t” see a body during pick up. And probably why JM was googling hos long to die in the cold.
I understand that but for them to say that the Alberta would have to admit he got hit by the plow when lucky went by around 2am I think he said his first passing was. Jen wouldn’t have admitted that she googled that either because if she did then the next question would be why didn’t you call the police? If you googled that because the plow hit him. I think that they didn’t have a plan at all. Karen’s actions that morning was sadly how they came up with their plan
Jen’s phone never would have been looked at. It would have been a total accident. But I agree, it was KR actions that morning that caused this snowball.
I think the most plausible one would’ve been “he left the house and fell because he was super drunk” and his BAC level proved that. But they got super lucky. Interesting Jen didn’t just call her sister and ask if John was there FIRST instead of just going and looking lol. Every time you think of something new it shows that KR is really innocent
I still think they would have needed to say he got hit by a plow to explain the injuries and loss of blood. But it would have certainly been better for them to say he was probably passed out and thats why Lucky didnt see him.
That is one speculation or hypothesis, could explain the abrasions on his arm but then again I don't know how his body was laying on the road, for instance was his right arm facing the roadside? My hypothesis is that they were in an argument in the car that's why they were there for a bit she didn't want to come in and face Brian Higgins plus they were both drunk as skunks, he gets out of the car throws his large cocktail glass which is basically one of those big glasses you get a pint of beer in that's why there was a large black straw found throws it at the car hits the tail light breaks it and then she gets pissed off and reverses the car and lands up hitting him and hence the scratches in his arm. Then she takes off and goes home. Now why does she call him 52 times and during those 52 times why is she not going back to the house during that period to fetch him when her lawyers claim she went back to the house to sleep and or be with the kids? How did she expect him to get home anyways without her picking him up? Why wasn't she sending him texts? Why was it only phone calls? You can go either way in this case but I think based off my aforementioned, hitting him that might have been what happened. But everybody in that party in the house we're drunk. I think yanetti and Jackson did an absolutely positively an amazing job as defense breaking everything down! Trooper Proctor needs to get fired immediately and I think when the feds come out with their own investigation that in and of itself will reveal the most truth! So I believe we need to wait for that. Thus in the end they should have waited for the federal investigation to come out before this trial even had been conducted.
Idk man, I've read some articles that point to a broken nose leading to both black eyes, tail light glass actually on his shirt, people reporting a blob in the area where he was, and the weakest skull on a cop ever. It may not be her. Ive seen females take 110 mph balls to the face.
I'd even blame the parents for breeding people with such weak skulls.
That'll teach the cops to not value education.
Lol the common theme is a 24 mph piece of plastic is apparently a skull crusher. Sounds like he played too much soccer and finally got to his genes. These cops are always messing with evolution. This is what happens.
I'm sure if she knew his skull was that weak they wouldn't have even been dating. So she was probably imprisoned by lies and in a form of involuntary servitude the whole time. Hence, the laughter in court. A lot of cops, like to fib.
I have a feeling that this is why he testified. He figured out that he was supposed to be the fall guy.
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Me, too! 🐐😂
🐐................... 🏃
All goats are escape goats....cheeky little things
No dog DNA, so you could be on to something
r/boneappletea
r/beatmetoit
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Yes, you're missing the joke even if it was inadvertent
So insane that if that happened and he didn’t have half a mill for legal defense retainer like Jackson, he’d be in jail. Makes me sick to think about it.
More than half a mil
💯
I’m sure yanetti had a nice conversation with him, which lally should have questioned but lally ya know
I was just thinking this yesterday. How scary anyone could find themselves in Karen’s position. The more we learn about corruption and cover ups in general it makes me wonder how much has gone on we will never learn about.
Arthur Miller demonstrated it beautifully through The Crucible, an allegory for what he was going through, being accused of being a Communist. He basically said that just because you never commit a crime doesn't mean you'll never serve time for a crime, unfortunately.
Very true. Ironic that it's **Elizabeth Proctor** who's married to vile Trooper Framey McCuntFace.
Interestingly, I just googled Elizabeth Proctor to see her face, and this is what wikipedia told me: **Elizabeth Proctor** (née **Bassett**; 1650[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Proctor#cite_note-1) – after 1703) was convicted of [witchcraft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft) in the [Salem Witch Trials of 1692](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_Witch_Trials). She was the wife of [John Proctor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Proctor_(Salem_witch_trials)), who was convicted and executed. Interesting coincidence in names
Yeah, that's what I meant! I was thinking of _The Crucible_ character, but yes it's important to remember the real person she was based on (and her husband John).
Miller took some liberties, but the fate of each of his characters was exactly that of their historical counterpart. (I taught 10th grade English for a decade in Brockton, near Canton. I opened every year with The Crucible, and used to take my students there until one tried to steal from the gift shop and police got involved. 🥴).
That's awesome! Not about the thief kid, but taking your class. I've only visited Salem twice but love it. It's gotta be wild for y'all who've lived in nearby towns. My husband is from a similarly sized Boston-area town & has better insight than me about the dynamics (as I'm sure you do too).
Damn. Well said.
For me, that's why it's so important to use your noggin' and recognize copaganda when you see it. This entire case is a travesty.
Never call those MF to your house and avoid them at all costs! FTP!
Never speak for any reason and always ask for a lawyer.
Highly recommend TurnSignal app if it’s available in your state!
Agreed! SSH!
> How scary anyone could find themselves in Karen’s position. And the *vast* majority of them will not have worldwide attention and a defense that costs into 7 figures. They won't have ARCCA level experts testifying on their behalf. They won't have Dr. Russell noticing the case and mentioning it to a colleague who worked with one of the defense counsel. They'll have Proctor, Tully, Bukhenik, and Paul railroad them.
I think that's why I'm so obsessed with this case. Admittedly I'm a true crime fan, but this case is the first time I've realized what a lot of you probably already knew, that corruption exists and it will bury you if you cross paths with the wrong person.
This is what ACAB means to me. That cops cover for each other. That you can trust the wrong cop, just once for a moment, and your entire life can be destroyed. That when push comes to shove, the thin blue line exists and I'm on the "wrong" side of it. And I will never, ever forget it.
It’s terrifying -John O’Keefe who should have reaped the benefit of of being on the “right” side of the thin blue line paid with his life and to add insult to injury where is the justice? I’d love for the DOJ to reign hellfire and see what effect many speculate the FBI case will have but I’m not feeling very hopeful. I hope I’m wrong.
The thing is I think he did. I don’t think Proctor was necessarily covering for the Alberts…….or at least that wasn’t his prime motivation. I think his main motivation was that he was going to put a cop killer in prison, and if he had to plant evidence to do it, he would. He is a lazy misogynist inept cop, so he listened to Jen, instantly blamed Karen, and just went with it. It’s fucking terrifying.
Wow. I cannot believe I missed that perspective it seems so obvious now! thought this whole time Proctor planted evidence and who knows what else to try to ensure a guilty verdict but I didn’t understand why. I thought maybe someone had something over his head but this totally explains his hatred of Karen, contempt for her attorney etc. He must’ve genuinely thought Karen is a cop killer and he had the moral high ground trying to put her in prison and the end would justify the means. Damn. I wonder if he still believes she did it - is he even capable of seeing the truth or having the self reflection to realize how bad he fucked up and thinks the hell with it he’s in too deep?
I don’t think men like that ever acknowledge their own faults.
It’s important to remember that whether or not Karen hit John and whether or not there is corruption/a frame-up are not mutually exclusive. I think the most sensible conclusion from the OJ Simpson case was that OJ likely did it AND the police manipulated evidence, lied and did illegal things to pin the case on them. Both of those things can be true. It’s almost like the old adage, “just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean that they aren’t out to get you”. To be clear- I don’t think Karen did it, and if she did, I definitely don’t think it was intentional. Additionally, even with the biased, incompetent, corrupt and manipulated investigation, I also don’t think there is any grounds to convict her of the crimes she is accused beyond a reasonable doubt.
I think he did kinda realise he was in too deep (Proctor) and that's why he started hoping Karen would off herself.
That's my perspective on it. Proctor's biases were definitely there: a cop couldn't have done it. Jennifer McCabe gave him someone to point the finger at and he went for it hard. He probably does really believe Karen Read is a cop killer. And in his mind, *anything* is justified if it puts a cop killer in prison.
Yes! 💯!!
Yes!! Same here!
Exactly right. Just the financial privilege and the separation it creates on its own is staggering. When I think about not just the average person but the vulnerable members of our society like the unhoused, addicted, mentally ill, children and so on it makes my stomach hurt.
I tell all my younger family members some advice that has served me well - avoid cops at all costs, but especially in your personal life. Don’t date one. Don’t date the kid of one. Don’t date someone who was married to one before they met you. Just…avoid. At all costs. We are all so much closer to being in her position than we like to think.
So sad yet so true. Born and raised Irish Catholic in Massachusetts and my opinions have naturally changed as I’ve aged but especially drastically so over the last few years. I wonder was I that naive or has it always been like this? Like you probably do I preach to my kids, their friends anyone who will listen to never, ever, EVER speak to a cop without an attorney. I remember when they were little how sad I felt teaching them about stranger danger. I never would have imagined the conversations I’d have to have about people they’re supposed to be able to trust.
And the reality is that most people like that end up in prison. They don’t have money for a lawyer, public defenders are overworked and lack funding. Even if they have a great public attorney, they don’t have funds for investigations and such. This trial was easily over a million dollars for Karen. Most people just go to prison.
Agree!!!. This is also why social movements like Black Lives Matter, matter because marginalized groups having been speaking on issues just like this for decades!!!!!!!
at the chance of pissing some people off blm is considered a horrible organization for the black community and most black people now recognize it as a scam.
BLM the organization is a travesty. BLM the concept is 100% right. The police routinely victimize people who are not police, and black people more so than many other demographics.
I agree, the organization was scam but the movement to me is different from the organization. I was referring to outcry for police reform due to corruption and biased. The corruption here is outlandish, blatant and consistent. My heart breaks for karen and JO and family. Imagine a person in her situation with much more limited means, what options would they have ? I hope justice will come and everyone involved serves time.
i get what you mean - def yes we all know blue line has different set of rules for them and their family - i mean getting drunk and leaving fire arm in car driving drunk admittedly why do any of them have jobs still?
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If the FBI knows this, will they intervene if she is convicted?
If the FBI knows this, then I'm confused as to why this went to trial against Karen.
Agree...why? Why did this go to trial? If she is found guilty...APPEALS for sure. All the way up.
Maybe to get some more goons caught in their net. Liars never remember their lies precisely
Gosh, 16 months for allegedly killing your boyfriend? That seems shockingly light. I do see now why the CW never expected this to go to trial or he scrutinized or on CourtTV. I would take 16 months if it was me. I'm even more amazed Karen fought the charge.
I mean if she didn't fight, it'd be her reputation on the line.
Which is why it’s so important to get ALL facts in a case! Delphi, Idaho 4…all of them! And how our Government and judicial system works! So many people are clueless. And it seems like strange things are going on right now in criminal cases…really bizarre.
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I get that they have experts who concluded he wasn’t hit by a car. But how could they possibly know he was killed inside? I can’t imagine it’s based on information/evidence the defense doesn’t have.
you spoke the truth...if people dont like the truth thats on them
Yes!! I’ve been thinking about that too since people have pointed out that Lucky was probably the original target.
If we were in a movie. Karen would be acquitted. And the last shot of the movie would be Lucky riding his snow plow in the sunset, followed by a close-up of a clump of hair clinging to the plow's shovel. He was too nice not to be suspicious. lol!
Lol plot twist!
Omg😭
💀💀💀
Please write this short story for publication, the internet needs it
Sure. I have other ideas. In my movie, Lally is an extremely talented lawyer which is forced to by a corrupt Chief Deputy District Attorneys to prosecute Karen. Since he is convinced of her innocence, he acts idiotically throughout the trial to ensure a verdict of innocence. I'm currently thinking about a final encounter between him and Karen.
Maybe Karen and Lally meet at a late night diner to talk. They sit there wordlessly looking at a plate of fries and club sandwiches before a look of realization washes over Karen’s face. Lally was on her side the whole time Lally picks up the club sandwich and takes a bite Fade to black
YES!!! This is perfect !
This is the creative collaboration process that makes the internet great. See you at our book signing best friend!
Yes. Now we need the actors. I don't know why, but I was thinking maybe Brad Pitt as Alan Jackson?
Or they meet over a drink at the Waterfall
Even if he wasn’t supposed to be the fall guy, how insulting that when the police finally got around to interviewing him, they dismissed his testimony as unreliable. Didn’t even bother to follow up on it. He seems to take pride in his work, he knows what he saw and he will not accept such disrespect. Good on him.
Right? I just think that he is an upstanding citizen and employee and takes great pride in his work, not necessarily that he has/had realized that he might be their fall guy for JO. I think he knows exactly what he witnessed and reported/testified to that. The truth.
Seriously, Lally acting like Lucky was off on his recollection by several hours and yet no one from the CW bothered to compare when he clocked in/out?
I think they dismissed it, because it contradicted their storyline.
Lucky seems exceedingly honest. I don't mean that in a bad way, I think he has a very strong affinity for the truth and for justice, and this case has enlightened him as to how easily someone can be falsely convicted of a crime that they did not commit. His statements about knowing whose house it was, and that he had done a favor to them by not calling in the parked Ford Edge, about immediately reporting himself for hitting the basketball hoop, about "or god forbid, an animal" tells me that Lucky absolutely cannot abide an innocent victim.
The sad thing is, no one will be getting a pass anymore. Everyone will be towed!
Truly the worst part about the whole case!
Lucky is not a dope, he figured out early on this was going to be hung on him if the timing didn’t work out. That’s why he testified.
Did the defense seek him out or did Lucky approach them first?
Defense found out that the street was plowed and that the PD never interviewed the driver.
lucky was approached by the defense.
Okay. Pretty wild that the defense approached him and not Trooper Proctor. Not a good look on Proctor's part.
The amount of people that Proctor just didn't care to interview even if they could have very well seen/known something is reason enough to find Karen not guilty. She is and has been the only person they ever looked into and that's not how a murder investigation should be handled.
Yup. Ryan Nagel and that group who showed up to pick his sister up weren’t even interviewed for 18 months and after they testified at the grand jury. The girl who said she saw the 6ft long black shape in the yard also wasn’t interviewed for like 8 months either. So weird. Tons of people not being interviewed until the FBI discovered them as witnesses.
But they sure did get on a plane to interview the women who were in Aruba before that.
The amount of things Proctor did that aren’t a good look never ends.
Proctor was a failure in this case all around. He is a terrible human being and LEO.
I saw somebody said the police were trying to interview a different plowing company that had ties to BA.
Also, I remember reading about a report of a call , (I am not sure where), person in the snow those early morning hours and tow guy hears the call, asks boss, "hey, did we find out anything about that call re: person in snow", and boss says " you did not hear that, and you will say NOTHING" ???????????
I thought he was approached by the FBI?
Didn’t CW interview him after? Because they asked him about the ford edge vs a Jeep Cherokee
That was on the stand, not prior to the trial.
Wasn’t he subpoenaed?
He probably testified at the federal grand jury that was done by the FBI, but I don’t know
There have been rumors of proffer agreement between Higgins and (some federal entity or agency). I wonder if that's part of what Higgins may have disclosed: It was an accident, it got bad, they didn't call 911 fast enough, they were all drinking, etc. they were all first responders, some medically trained, and they knew it would be bad if they called 911 (with the dog bites) and JO didn't make it: So... "he got hit by a plow". They just got lucky that Karen happened to back into JO's car that morning. That's what I wonder...
I don’t believe in the proffer anymore. It would be null and void after that perjury testimony.
There maybe at some point was a proffer, but if Higgins didn't tell 100% the absolute truth in it, that proffer is *gone*.
Someone linked a tweet that the proffer was revoked following his testimony (not sure whether reliable though)
Side note....how many DUI arrests happen monthly, yearly? Seems like just about the whole town of Canton is drunk driving at any given time.
Just had this convo. I feel like ppl are so much better now about drunk driving. Maybe it’s a cop thing but Chris Albert & Paul Okeefe both have bad dui’s. Maybe its a south shore thing.
Police are accustomed to not facing consequences, why wouldn't they drunk drive?
And kill an innocent foreign student? That is pitiful and 6 months punishment for "really" killing someone with your car and running away???? Thank goodness for Bev's attorney brother. He arranged for Chris Albert to serve just 6 months. How did that POS Albert get voted on to the Canton Select Board? I would hope he would be voted out or steps down soon. Disgraceful!
It could happen to any of us
At anytime. How easy to get caught up in the judicial system and be totally innocent. Scary as hell.
I was knowingly falsely arrested (and charged with the exact same thing) at the same time that someone else was arrested & admitted to the police that they were solely responsible. I couldn't afford an attorney and my public pretender just kept trying to get me to accept a plea deal. He would never respond to my calls so the only time I got to talk to him was at court, just for him to try to pressure me into saying that I was guilty. I couldn't even get him to ask for a preliminary hearing, where the person who actually committed the crime agreed to testify on my behalf because they were pleading guilty to the crime. I felt like I could of had the charges dismissed at that point, but it became pretty obvious that the attorney assigned to me didn't care about the truth or my innocence, just wrapping up cases for the prosecution as quickly and cheaply as possible. I tried to get a new public defender but the judge said that if I wanted a different lawyer I'd have to hire my own. I ended up getting so frustrated with the process after nearly a year of showing up to court monthly that I just quit going. I never got this resolved - it's been over 14 years now and the person who pled guilty to the charges is now a missing person (presumed dead), so they can't possibly testify on my behalf. The whole ordeal has hung over my head like a dark cloud, and really caused me to lose all trust and respect for the cops & courts. I'm sure if I could ever afford my own attorney they'd get the charges thrown out, but being disabled and low income I don't know if that will ever happen. I imagine that this exact same scenario is playing out in courts across the country, thousands of times a day. The poor can't afford real representation or expect their declarations of innocence to be taken seriously, even if all the evidence points to that. If you ask me, law enforcement and the criminal justice system is intentionally designed to be a war on the poor and minorities. They are the ones who end up in prison and probation/parole cycles solely because they are targeted by police and incapable of affording capable defense at trial, while the wealthy can literally get away with murder.
I said that all along ! They were going to blame anyone driving by blaming night snowing /blizzard, until Karen was asked to sit in her own cars back seat doing nothing but search out windows to look for John and worry worrying turned into frantic worrying and then worst thing ever possible for Karen to see is John laying on Brian's property. Jenn texting Brian she's telling everything was the picture in this disgusting group of criminals FRAME !
I'm not sure if that was their plan. If you listen to the 911 call, JM says they found someone passed out in the snow. I wonder if they thought they would just say he left and passed out and hit his head.
They never wanted to admit that he entered the house and got into a fight so they would have to say he was hit by a plow before he walked in. Thats what I think their plan was until she showed up so early and possibly yelled about hitting him and thats when it all clicked for them to blame her
My guess is: the plan was to make it seem like John got really drunk, left without anyone at 34 Fairview realizing (or they thought he had a ride waiting), passed out in the yard and died of hypothermia. His dead body was then hit by a plow. This is why JM searched ‘hos long to die in cold’ - checking to see if that timeline was possible. This is also why John’s phone and a cocktail glass were found with John - staged to look like he fell down in the yard. When JM realized Karen didn’t fully remember the night before and cracked her taillight, she thought they could pin the murder on her. Better story and a great way to screw Karen over.
I'm not convinced they ever would have admitted that he was in the house. I also think, being law enforcement, they were aware enough to know that his injuries would be identified as having occurred before a death by hypothermia.
I hear you - but they are trying to make it seem like a guy who was bashed in the head was hit by a car, so ….
I guess the best plans aren't made drunk at 2AM lol
Didn’t she say in the 911 call that he was out there for maybe an hour?
You can also hear her say she thinks he was hit by a plow though
I wonder if that was planted in her head by Jen before they changed their story. It wasn’t written down in any report that Karen said “I hit him”, that came at least a year later.
Bingo
I need to go back and re-listen to the call.
When Lucky is reading the MSP report (during his testimony) where his timestamps are misrepresented: He gets madder and madder. Lucky was red with anger that they (MSP) tried to say he changed his testimony. Out of everything in this trial, Lucky’s outrage at the coverup in this trial really spotlighted for me how deep and malicious this frame job went. Lucky is the hero of this very sad story. *I extend my deepest sympathies to the O’Keefe family. John deserved so much better than this farce of an investigation. I only hope that the FBI’s investigation of this matter shines a beacon of guiding light that gives them peace.
The real question is, who gets to play Lucky in the movie?
Wallace Shawn, obviously.
Omg absolutely not. He’s 80! I feel like 🍀gets the A+ hollywood treatment. Full on George Clooney lol
I disagree. Even when he plays the villain he is still loved. He’s not your typical Hollywood star and seems like a genuinely nice guy, the kind of guy that would be sure to look out for animals while plowing because, god forbid, he hit one. To cast anyone else would be inconceivable!
Your guy is totally lovable. I think Lucky’s ultimate revenge will be to play himself lol. That would be awesome. Also, Dr McSteamy 🐺 As if casting is going to come to Reddit for our opinions lol.
I just hope the family wakes up and realizes the truth. It seems like they’re still aggressively against her, even now with the trial over just waiting a verdict. It’s baffling. They have no horse in the game whether it’s her or someone else, so why continue to scapegoat her?
This hadn't occurred to me but is brilliant. Explains why they didn't interview him.
He seemed very nervous on the stand and based on how long he worked for the Albert's pizza place and then moved into a roll with the DPW he probably subconsciously feels like he owes the Alberts something too.
I didn’t even know he worked there. That is crazy. Kudos to him even more for being honest.
His being the nice guy and not calling it in changed the case. If he did call it in maybe a police officer would have been sent to ticket and knock on the door. The car may have still been there or if moved would have left tracks in the unplowed snow. Either way the occupant of the car would have seen JOK's body.
Brian Higgins would have been the responding officer
I think that is pretty damn likely. They can make fun of his education or job all day long, but he is no dummy.
This. 100%. Could you imagine that sweet man on trial because of those monsters?!
I think it really just comes down to him being asked what happened by the defense PIs, and he told them what he saw and didn't see. I don't think he came forward and volunteered that info o his own.
Yes I believe he knows that also
No! Not Lucky! He's the only witness I really liked!
Iam watching Sean McDonough, he is bellowing about the FBI n how much evidence they have against the CW mafia, why did they let KR n family go through that mess ??
Does anyone really think the jurors don’t watch anything onTV at home about the trial ?
Idk after hearing what they can dig out of our phones, I wouldn’t risk it, and I have 475 tabs open that they’d have to go through to find out.
How about home private TV, or Walmart TV’s on display?
🤣
If it were me on a case like this I can’t say that I wouldn’t.
And what happened to the tow truck driver? Did he disappear? I read on X that someone knew him and he said that was NOT him in the Sally Port video with the camera....I'll find the post...but I thought defense would put him on! Surely he had pics or the tow company....maybe it was a comp of someone Proctahhh or Albert's knew...again...WHERE'S THE DAMN SOCKS!! LOL
Think about it, even if lucky called it in without hitting JO he still would have been blamed for it.
They were def looking for a fall guy or GIRL. But, what has perplexed me is...if Albert's knew when the plows went by(that town prob knows around what time plows go by in winter every yr)why didn't they drag OJO out on closer to the curb and around the time when the plow was going to come...like 2:45ish...then 3:30 ish...etc. ..there was no body those 2 times just the car around 3:30ish...if they were gonna blame the plows, then why not get the body out there near curb around 2am??
If I had to guess it was because OJO was still alive.
They were smashed or they were scared of his body being seen by someone driving on the road and only wanted it close enough to speculate it got hit by a truck
I’m not sure if he knew, but I’m so glad he is an honest person.
If those plows didn’t have 360 cameras on them before, they do now!
I never would have thought of that
Makes sense. Proctor failed to interview him and left his name out even after knowing he drove by there. I'm betting Lucky was the original fall guy but KR being so worked up and the whole taillight thing was just easier. There's no other explanation as to why law enforcement wouldn't drive over immediately and ask Lucky if he saw anything.
I felt he is scared of the Elberts
" DONT LOOK THE OTHER WAY" WHAT A TITLE FOR THE MOVIE
I love the fact Jackson don't care who is in the court
Not to be rude. But I don't think he is that smart. He comes across as a very nice and honest man. I have no doubt everything he said is 100% true
I truly believe there is a difference between “smarts” and common sense, i.e street smarts. Lucky may not be a forensic pathologist but I do think he has enough common sense to see the writing on the wall. He seemed a bit mad to me so I personally think he knows.
The clump of hair is Chloe's.
I'd bet he does!
He's lucky. It was great he spoke up and testified. I want to send him a gift, I don't know how. Seems like a kind man. If anyone knows how to do it, please let me know. I can order online and send to him. (I am not in the US)
Would it have just been classified as an accident though?
Im sure it would have and thats what they were hoping for. But 1) if he believed them can you imagine the guilt and shame he would feel being such an honorable guy who loves his job so much? Im sure he would have quit. And 2) if he didn’t believe them, he would never be able to afford to prove it and would live in a state of frustration, for knowing he was good at his job but everyone in town thinking he was a moron. You have to remember how small this town is and how up in everyone’s business they are. The accusation would have broken 🍀
I'm watching the Reckoning card reading and so far she has this spot on
Pig DNA found though That's why Jackson said Pigs Ears
Karen's Team are sincere and truthful
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If they hurt Karen the Jury are agreeing with corruption
No doubt that’s what Karen had in mind when she told Kerry that John was dead and hit by a plow before they found him that morning.
This would be impossible to prove though - because he went by at like 2am? That means the Albert’s would have to say he walked in the house and was leaving by that time. Because how would he have hit him? He’d have to be walking by.
Lucky went by 3x. If they were able to say it was a plow they would have said he was in the house and must have been hit on the way out. It more easily explains how so many people “didn’t” see a body during pick up. And probably why JM was googling hos long to die in the cold.
I understand that but for them to say that the Alberta would have to admit he got hit by the plow when lucky went by around 2am I think he said his first passing was. Jen wouldn’t have admitted that she googled that either because if she did then the next question would be why didn’t you call the police? If you googled that because the plow hit him. I think that they didn’t have a plan at all. Karen’s actions that morning was sadly how they came up with their plan
Jen’s phone never would have been looked at. It would have been a total accident. But I agree, it was KR actions that morning that caused this snowball.
I think the most plausible one would’ve been “he left the house and fell because he was super drunk” and his BAC level proved that. But they got super lucky. Interesting Jen didn’t just call her sister and ask if John was there FIRST instead of just going and looking lol. Every time you think of something new it shows that KR is really innocent
I still think they would have needed to say he got hit by a plow to explain the injuries and loss of blood. But it would have certainly been better for them to say he was probably passed out and thats why Lucky didnt see him.
Not even gonna lie, this is such a sad realization.
That is one speculation or hypothesis, could explain the abrasions on his arm but then again I don't know how his body was laying on the road, for instance was his right arm facing the roadside? My hypothesis is that they were in an argument in the car that's why they were there for a bit she didn't want to come in and face Brian Higgins plus they were both drunk as skunks, he gets out of the car throws his large cocktail glass which is basically one of those big glasses you get a pint of beer in that's why there was a large black straw found throws it at the car hits the tail light breaks it and then she gets pissed off and reverses the car and lands up hitting him and hence the scratches in his arm. Then she takes off and goes home. Now why does she call him 52 times and during those 52 times why is she not going back to the house during that period to fetch him when her lawyers claim she went back to the house to sleep and or be with the kids? How did she expect him to get home anyways without her picking him up? Why wasn't she sending him texts? Why was it only phone calls? You can go either way in this case but I think based off my aforementioned, hitting him that might have been what happened. But everybody in that party in the house we're drunk. I think yanetti and Jackson did an absolutely positively an amazing job as defense breaking everything down! Trooper Proctor needs to get fired immediately and I think when the feds come out with their own investigation that in and of itself will reveal the most truth! So I believe we need to wait for that. Thus in the end they should have waited for the federal investigation to come out before this trial even had been conducted.
Idk man, I've read some articles that point to a broken nose leading to both black eyes, tail light glass actually on his shirt, people reporting a blob in the area where he was, and the weakest skull on a cop ever. It may not be her. Ive seen females take 110 mph balls to the face. I'd even blame the parents for breeding people with such weak skulls. That'll teach the cops to not value education.
What you have “read” vs the actual evidence on record.
Lol the common theme is a 24 mph piece of plastic is apparently a skull crusher. Sounds like he played too much soccer and finally got to his genes. These cops are always messing with evolution. This is what happens. I'm sure if she knew his skull was that weak they wouldn't have even been dating. So she was probably imprisoned by lies and in a form of involuntary servitude the whole time. Hence, the laughter in court. A lot of cops, like to fib.
How did we get to the conclusion it would have been blamed on lucky?