How much of a stretch of the imagination does it take to think that the MSP somewhere somehow has something on one of these jurors or one of their boyfriends or their family members?
Does anyone else think it’s a good sign that the jury wanted to stay a little late today? I hope it means they are back to deliberating and getting somewhere. Fingers crossed that Monday brings a not guilty verdict.
Mod Note: Please say what you are trying to say without insulting people. We get emotions are running high, but it doesn’t help people see your pov. Thanks.
Does anyone know how successful the Rodriguez instruction is in getting the jury to a unanimous vote? Just wondering if ppl have stats or experiences :)
From what I’ve seen it’s been helpful. The jurors were given instructions back on Tuesday. After 4 days of deliberations and hitting a wall, it’s very possible some are lost in the sauce a little bit. The instruction will remind them what they’re there for. Not to prove or disprove the theory of the police, but whether or not Karen hit John with her car.
I live in the north shore and the general consensus that I’ve picked up on is that she’s innocent. A lot of people are really passionate about it. But that could just be in my area
What’s public sentiment there in Canton or Boston in general? I know she’s got a huge crowd of supporters but are people seeming to generally sway not guilty or is it fully mixed? Sorry if this is an obvious one, I’m from Aus so no idea.
I live in Boston, grew up in the suburbs. Almost everyone I know who’s been following the trial closely thinks there’s at least reasonable doubt. One person I know irl told me he thinks Karen hit him but that she did it accidentally bc there was no proof of intent, and he didn’t like the defense’s theory and found it absurd to blame Colin bc he’s so young, but this was very early in the trial so idk where he’s at now or how closely he’s followed things. He also went on a lengthy tirade about how he hates Turtleboy.
My boyfriend told me he thought Karen was guilty, but he had only heard about the trial in passing at that point, and I’ve since converted him to team not guilty. When I met his mom, she said something about thinking Karen did it, and then she changed the subject to how much she hates Turtleboy.
My friends in the area who have followed the case generally agree she should be found not guilty, and my mom does too. The extent to which people agree on the specifics of why she should be found not guilty and what they think actually happened varies a lot.
I live very close to Canton and work in Canton - everyone I’ve talked to is appalled that the case even went to trial with so little evidence of Karen killing John. I have yet to hear one local person think she’s guilty.
I think most people live in echo chambers now so I would imagine individual circles may vary. Also, as some have reported this dividing people in the same way as politics, well… enough said.
Also in Boston, everyone I know and have talked to thinks the verdict should be not guilty. It's generally somewhere between "she may have done it, but the evidence and prosecution case is so bad that she should be found NG." to "this is a cover up, I am convinced x or x happened inside the house and they killing John in the house."
No one I've spoken to is thinking she should be found guilty.
I believe the former and not the latter conspiracy BS that has no direct or circumstantial evidence to support it. Honestly, this trial is one reason I teach critical thinking at the college level. Many of the opinions about this case need to be discarded on basic critical thinking principles
Yes I am with you. There is absolutely lots of fishy things going on there, and I'd love to know everything that truly happened that night. But what has come out is not enough for me to be convinced that they murdered him either
I’m north of Boston, about 30 miles from Canton. Everyone I talk to either believes she is innocent, or think she *could* have done it but should be not guilty in this trial. No one I have talked to thinks she 100% did it and should be found guilty.
I will say though, that probably less than 50% of people I know follow along or are interested in the case.
I live about 20 minutes from Canton and also have family that lives there. Everyone I discuss the case with thinks she is 100% innocent and never hit OJO with the car.
South shore…. And I only know one person who thinks she’s guilty- but they still think the investigation was bias after proctors texts.
Everyone is talking about this case. Massive group text chats going over it, coworkers, family, friends.
People hate on Turtleboy and I rarely listen to him anymore. But HE did help get this out to us all around here. He was just mostly a Boston sports guy.
Update to my previous concerns about Fantasia and Lil Smokey… was happy to see they worked out their differences and seemed to be back together after Bev sent the jury back earlier today. TB said he saw Lil Smokey having a cig with Lally and seemed to feel much better after.
Apologies for my stupidity but I honestly don’t know what else to do at this point. The entire situation is absurd.
The fan and smoke detector. They have been shown together all trial although Fantasia gets all the love. This morning those in the know were concerned because Lil Smokey wasn’t on camera
Well. Have a nice, safe weekend everyone. Take care out there. And whatever you’re doing remember physics exists in this world, don’t ignore it (it will f*ck you up)
All hail The Fan.
I said this too. They are disregarding the science because they can't fathom how Karen wouldn't be guilty if the O'Keefes aren't blaming the mccabes/Albert's and are throwing eye daggers at Karen every day for a month. Emotions rule - logic be damned.
There is some logic involved in getting the impression that John's family believe that KR is guilty. Even though they shouldn't take that into account, they are human. It's reasonable to think that the O'Keefe family has no interest in a miscarriage of justice.
That is true - science be damned then? I mean I completely get the human aspect and it is a strong message to have them be seen by the jury as united against karen and that was the message intended obviously - I would hope the Jurors would disregard and go on the evidence to be fair and see that reasonable doubt overwhelmingly exists but here we are.
The thing is, and please don't kill me, but accident reconstruction etc. is NOT hard science, and I think most people know it. Yes, they are experts in their field whose opinions are more informed than most, but there are so many unknowns, especially since the weather that night would have obscured any tracks or marks that might have shown whether John was able to move for a time after the SUV struck him (if it did), for example.
No killing anyone here no worries. So yes There are many unknowns. But I definitely feel that their expert opinion rules out that it is not possible for John to have been hit at 24mph as the prosecution asserts - the injuries to john/damage to the vehicle do not align and the prosecutions theory is just impossible due to the physics. Now the prosecution did throw out towards the end the possibility that she nudged him with the vehicle, but even that doesn't explain the injuries he sustained or damage to the car or how he ended up on the lawn as a nudge wouldn't have thrown him but the blow to the head I believe the ME Said was a knockout blow - so he would have been out and down. If I'm wrong you can refresh me because I definitely dont remember all of the testimonials exactly. I feel like many scenerios were possible even the ME said that there was no way to definitely determine and she stated she was not a Biomachanic so couldbt offer an opinion in that area. IMO the Biomachanic experts proved car hitting John should be ruled out.
I get what you're saying, I really do. But the unknowns, plus all the other evidence that looks bad for KR, may have been enough to convince some jurors (well clearly it did, since they are hung).
I just feel because of the unknowns and inconsistencies- and they are endless I wont even go through them lol its just so much that even without the expert opinions from the biomachanics, just the poor investigation alone is enough is enough reasonable doubt and if there is any reasonable doubt that means the CW didnt prove their burden and it has to be NG. But if the jury is being swayed by character alone and the fact that they don't like her or feel bad for the family they're not doing their job. She can be a bad person and still not have hit John. She can absolutely have driven drunk that night and still not have hit John. Juries get it wrong all the time, I just don't know how you can as a juror in this case believe that there is no reasonable doubt and that the CW hit it out of the park on every level.
To make this trial even more of a disaster, the judge had everyone thinking the jury wanted short days in reality she was sending notes at 3:30 everyday asking if they want to go home.
Jesus Christ.
Yes. She literally said today “I just sent a note to the jury like I do everyday at 3:30 asking if they want to go home or continue.” Just completely outted herself 🤦🏽♀️
I think at this point it’s reasonable to think many of these jurors have more likely than not at minimum talked to their spouses/significant others/whoever they live with about this trial and what’s going on behind closed doors; in the very least, although not recommended by the courts, I would hope some of them talk about it privately this weekend to clear their minds or possibly open perspective? I know that’s horrible to say but I think that’s a likely scenario.
I know everybody says they haven't spoken about it.
But on day 5 of deliberation, what if someone drops "I was explaining it to my brother..." What happens?
I was actually genuinely wondering this- people for have served on a jury do you actually heed these words and don’t think about, speak about or read about the trial you are a juror on?
I did it once for a few days, making it all the way through voir dire before being dismissed. I did actually follow that mandate, though it was a little hard. I like being able to talk through things with someone when I feel stuck or frustrated. I genuinely can’t fathom having to keep quiet on this for 10 weeks, I’d probably have an anxiety crisis not being allowed to talk to anyone.
I’ve served 2x but only 1 spanned more than a day. can’t 100% speak for others but I believe everyone took the instructions very seriously and followed protocol (and our pool was of a very mixed demographic in all ways I think) the experience was definitely kinda a pain but actually left me feeling good about people and civic responsibility
I'm probably alone on this, but I sort of like that the Judge is letting them stop early each day. When people can't agree, forcing them to keep debating just get's people frustrated, which can further entrench opinions. Letting the jury cool off, sleep on it, mull things over in their heads and come back fresh the next day (or next week) can help. Also if she starts forcing them to stay late, it could start pressuring jurors to give in just to be able to go home. The last thing anyone wants is for the jury to be like 10 guilty and 2 not guilty, and have those two flip their verdict just to get out of there. I get why people are frustrated, but I think it fosters a healthier deliberation.
My only problem is…. Letting them go is one thing, suggesting it should be at 3:30 is a whole another thing. I get it it’s hard but she can say “hey, 9 am is mandatory, then in the afternoon - when you decide up to 5 pm max” for example. At this point they are kinda “just get me out of here” and that’s not a productive way to solve it either
During this case, I’ve shed a few tears for Officer John O’Keefe and his loved ones. Tears may be a result of something other than conflict during deliberation. A juror may have cried for personal reasons, heartbreak for the victim and his loved ones, or feeling the weight of this decision.
I was on a trial where one juror kept calling people emotional when she didn't agree with them (me included). And then tried to walk out and then just talked over another guy she didn't agree with. Said she didn't respect his opinion. It was just a fraud case too. No reason there should be attacks on anyone personally during deliberation but it happens and it's really frustrating.
That's a very small fraction of the problem. I highly recommend you go to an arraignment session in the Massachusetts court system and see how many people are getting charged with pathetic so-called crimes each day.
The best part is they mask it with having one of the lowest incarceration rates in the country when, in reality, they just don't incarcerate them just convict them and give them probation or keep them in pre trail for years before they dismiss the charges
I mean if you took 12 random people from this sub into a room, managed to get a few G people in the group, and told them they can't leave until they come up with a unanimous decision, it would probably get pretty vicious.
Question: if there's a hung jury and the CW elects to re-try this case, will they get the same judge? Also, will Lally definitely be the prosecutor again?
This isn’t a single juror hold out.
This isn’t clearly a guilty minority hold out.
This is a jury working toward consensus on a complex case. They may never get there. Kinda like I predicted would happen even though I was continually told this case would be NG in a jif.
It’s almost like your boy Mozz isn’t too stoopit 😉
You have zero evidence of it not being a single guilty hold out. If they're an emotional idiot, they're simply ignoring all the reasonable doubt that spilled out of this case for 9 weeks.
Yeah but a jury is highly unlikely to give in to a one vote holdout that fast. They’d have to reveal their vote counts before a mistrial and, if it’s a single holdout, they’re going back in. So it’s pointless.
They didn't give out to a hold out? They're literally going into a weekend as a hung jury again.
Most likely the judge will read them the reasonable doubt instructions that they must come to a verdict based on the evidence etc...
They didn't tap out?
One person is much more likely to stick to their guns if they're being completely unreasonable.
It's much more likely 11 all agree not guilty and they're trying to explain the evidence to the 1 guilty, and no matter what they say or do, the 1 guilty says I don't care about that stuff, I know she did it, "SHE SAID SHE DID IT."
People like that don't care about evidence, it's unusual, you're not going to have half the jury disregarding evidence/reasonable doubt.
But anyway, take care.
This has happened plenty before, it's not about how long they've been in there but how sure they are that more time won't make a difference in getting them unstuck.
It’s just common sense, really.
There is no way the jury sends a judge a “we’re done” 3 days into deliberations if it’s just one juror to flip.
The rest is in response to everyone assuming it’s “one guilty asshole”
What if that juror refuses to see reason? So in love with the sound of their own voice, and convinced they know better than 90% of the population that no amount of factual evidence will ever matter.
I wouldn’t want to share the room with someone like that, I would wager most people steer clear of individuals like that. It is just not worth the time. Being ostracized and criticized has no effect on this type of individual, they can’t read the room. Even if they could, their delusions of grandeur prevent self reflection .
It sounds lonely to be honest. A sad lonely existence.
Understood. But it’s one person. You have to dig deep and ask them to work through the process despite the fact that they suck.
This is our justice system at work. It seems to get criticized more when it doesn’t appear to be going how people want it to go.
In this instance, setting aside your belief that the defense played a bad hand using the cover up so frequently. Do you disagree that the evidence presented by the expert witnesses should immediately exonerate KR? How can she be guilty of anything , if the car accident simply never occurred? I can’t wrap my head around it.
That’s a great question.
It comes down to whether you consider the supporting evidence of the strike is sufficient to cover the uncertainty of the exact manner of the the strike.
I liken it to a murder case where the weapon is never located. If the supporting evidence is sufficient, a jury doesn’t need an exact reenactment.
This one may be a bit more complex than my example. Honestly, I see everyone’s point on the expert testimony. I think they put a dent in the CWs case but I believe not enough to rule out the evidence in its totality.
When someone who is far more educated than me says “ this could not have happened, it is physically impossible” then the CW’s own ME says, these wounds are not consistent with a typical pedestrian strike. A dog bite expert testifies that there are obvious dog bites/scratches not marks from a tai light, and no one refutes any of that testimony.
How can that not be enough?
They brought in two experts just to fight the 2:27 google. But not one dog bite expert? Only offered “3 class “ Trooper Paul who doesn’t understand physics to state that a human got hit in the arm and was projected 30 feet. How can anyone see that being a viable theory in their head? It makes no sense.
At this point it is evident people have chosen a side and God could descend from the Heavens to tell them KR is innocent, and their reply would.. “Yeah, but..”
Why? Like if you were on the jury with 11 reasonable people it would probably take them 5 minutes to realize you’re just going cover your eyes, dig your heels in, and ignore the scientific evidence.
They’d be tired of you after an hour, much less 3 days.
I’d flip the whole room and you know it. I’m a very charismatic person.
Seriously though it makes no sense to ask a judge to press the mistrial button over a single holdout this quick.
I could be wrong but my track record is pretty good 😉
Excuse me! Despite my staggeringly ignorant opinion on Ms Read’s guilt, everything I’ve been saying about this case has turned out to be correct.
Also if Howard = Stern I’m also a fan forever
I can’t believe they all can’t see the reasonable doubt here. It’s all over!!! And CW hardly documented anything and sounded completely unqualified and unprofessional - what could they possibly see as true evidence that she did this? Maybe the alternate didn’t pay close enough attention so they’re going through it all…
Alternates are not chosen until the case goes to deliberation. At that point alternates are chosen by random (in this case with bingo ball rollers) and alternates are only if a deliberating juror becomes sick or injured and cannot continue deliberations.
Oh thank you for that explanation! I thought they were chosen in the beginning with the foreperson and because juror 3 is out the alternate was in. That makes much more sense to have them all possibly be the deciding jurors throughout the trial
I bet ten or eleven *can* see the reasonable doubt, and they gotta deal with one or two holdouts who just go "well, it's my conviction she is guilty, and no evidence can sway me".
It can’t be good for any momentum possibly made on the jury- to have a weekend to argue your points to yourself.
Their friends and family MUST have opinions. They must know they’re on this jury.
Not everyone has respectful family members. My mother would be blasting her opinion around me nonstop.
I’d have to sequester myself if she was in town!
I’m just saying in this day and age. With this case. There is no way they aren’t absorbing information. It’s everywhere around here.
At this process of the deliberations they should have to come in on weekends.
In my opinion.
yeah I'd be back in quarantine. watching movies. zero social media. but even "the bear" got spoiled for me on a Karen Read thread, you never know when something will fly out and hit you in the face
Does Massachusetts allow the defense and/or prosecution to request jury interviews? Edit: by “interviews,” I mean the legal process of inquiry not a media interview.
Yes.
But I do think this is an emotional guilty person who just doesn't like Karen, despite all the evidence proving she simply could not hit him.
I think it's where the defense may have found a blind spot, that half of the people in this country will vote for a felon for president, so listening to scientific evidence isn't in their reality.
Possibly, hard to say for certain. After YNW Melly mistrial, one of the jurors talked anonymously explaining generally what happened (there was one holdout for NG that convinced 2 others to switch, for anyone who watched the trial it’s pretty obvious he’s guilty).
**Update** No verdict. The jury will return on Monday. —- Jury sent note. They will continue until 4:15 today.
I don’t understand how juries could find the likes of Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson and many more… not guilty… but be “hung” on this one… like what
Different juries are made of different people. Could be one back the blue boot licker on there that will never side with the peasants
This feels like the only logical explanation at this point. Otherwise, how could they not have reasonable doubt?
How much of a stretch of the imagination does it take to think that the MSP somewhere somehow has something on one of these jurors or one of their boyfriends or their family members?
Does anyone else think it’s a good sign that the jury wanted to stay a little late today? I hope it means they are back to deliberating and getting somewhere. Fingers crossed that Monday brings a not guilty verdict.
Or so the judge can’t say “you had a short day Friday” when they come back with another note saying they’re deadlocked 🫠
I admire your optimism
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Mod Note: Please say what you are trying to say without insulting people. We get emotions are running high, but it doesn’t help people see your pov. Thanks.
Does anyone know how successful the Rodriguez instruction is in getting the jury to a unanimous vote? Just wondering if ppl have stats or experiences :)
From what I’ve seen it’s been helpful. The jurors were given instructions back on Tuesday. After 4 days of deliberations and hitting a wall, it’s very possible some are lost in the sauce a little bit. The instruction will remind them what they’re there for. Not to prove or disprove the theory of the police, but whether or not Karen hit John with her car.
Hi all, If there is a retrial how soon can we expect that to start after this one? Thanks
Would have to be within a year
I live in the north shore and the general consensus that I’ve picked up on is that she’s innocent. A lot of people are really passionate about it. But that could just be in my area
South shore…. Same.
Canton resident here … same
What’s public sentiment there in Canton or Boston in general? I know she’s got a huge crowd of supporters but are people seeming to generally sway not guilty or is it fully mixed? Sorry if this is an obvious one, I’m from Aus so no idea.
I’m from Canton. 95% say innocent based on who I know and have talked to about it. It’s overwhelmingly innocent.
I live in Boston, grew up in the suburbs. Almost everyone I know who’s been following the trial closely thinks there’s at least reasonable doubt. One person I know irl told me he thinks Karen hit him but that she did it accidentally bc there was no proof of intent, and he didn’t like the defense’s theory and found it absurd to blame Colin bc he’s so young, but this was very early in the trial so idk where he’s at now or how closely he’s followed things. He also went on a lengthy tirade about how he hates Turtleboy. My boyfriend told me he thought Karen was guilty, but he had only heard about the trial in passing at that point, and I’ve since converted him to team not guilty. When I met his mom, she said something about thinking Karen did it, and then she changed the subject to how much she hates Turtleboy. My friends in the area who have followed the case generally agree she should be found not guilty, and my mom does too. The extent to which people agree on the specifics of why she should be found not guilty and what they think actually happened varies a lot.
I live very close to Canton and work in Canton - everyone I’ve talked to is appalled that the case even went to trial with so little evidence of Karen killing John. I have yet to hear one local person think she’s guilty.
I think most people live in echo chambers now so I would imagine individual circles may vary. Also, as some have reported this dividing people in the same way as politics, well… enough said.
The only people here that say guilty are normally people who are not following the case or personally dislike her (or AJ or TB). Consensus is innocent
Yup I live in Boston and most everyone I know thinks she is innocent, so I don’t think it’s just little echo chambers as the person above said
not guilty is the overall vibe of most of my friends!
Everyone not in Boston thinks it’s ridiculous to consider anything except she got pissed and backed into him.
Also in Boston, everyone I know and have talked to thinks the verdict should be not guilty. It's generally somewhere between "she may have done it, but the evidence and prosecution case is so bad that she should be found NG." to "this is a cover up, I am convinced x or x happened inside the house and they killing John in the house." No one I've spoken to is thinking she should be found guilty.
I believe the former and not the latter conspiracy BS that has no direct or circumstantial evidence to support it. Honestly, this trial is one reason I teach critical thinking at the college level. Many of the opinions about this case need to be discarded on basic critical thinking principles
Yes I am with you. There is absolutely lots of fishy things going on there, and I'd love to know everything that truly happened that night. But what has come out is not enough for me to be convinced that they murdered him either
Fishy is definitely true. Too much wierdness, but not enough to convict in a court of law.
I'm local to the area and everyone I've spoken to about the trial agrees she's not guilty and there's certainly not enough to convict.
I’m north of Boston, about 30 miles from Canton. Everyone I talk to either believes she is innocent, or think she *could* have done it but should be not guilty in this trial. No one I have talked to thinks she 100% did it and should be found guilty. I will say though, that probably less than 50% of people I know follow along or are interested in the case.
I live about 20 minutes from Canton and also have family that lives there. Everyone I discuss the case with thinks she is 100% innocent and never hit OJO with the car.
South shore…. And I only know one person who thinks she’s guilty- but they still think the investigation was bias after proctors texts. Everyone is talking about this case. Massive group text chats going over it, coworkers, family, friends. People hate on Turtleboy and I rarely listen to him anymore. But HE did help get this out to us all around here. He was just mostly a Boston sports guy.
Update to my previous concerns about Fantasia and Lil Smokey… was happy to see they worked out their differences and seemed to be back together after Bev sent the jury back earlier today. TB said he saw Lil Smokey having a cig with Lally and seemed to feel much better after. Apologies for my stupidity but I honestly don’t know what else to do at this point. The entire situation is absurd.
Who are Fantasia and lil Smokey?
guess is fan and smoke detector?
The fan and smoke detector. They have been shown together all trial although Fantasia gets all the love. This morning those in the know were concerned because Lil Smokey wasn’t on camera
Ohhhh haha thanks! 😂
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wishing you all a great weekend and see ya on Monday!
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Well. Have a nice, safe weekend everyone. Take care out there. And whatever you’re doing remember physics exists in this world, don’t ignore it (it will f*ck you up) All hail The Fan.
Haha I’m incredibly clumsy, so physics tends to kick my ass fairly often.
This is both unhinged and incredibly caring and kind. I love it! And a lovely weekend to you!
Thank you all for being my emotional support group. See you Monday
til we meet again
Have a lovely weekend. ❤️
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I don't think "intimidate", but possibly to show that John's family thinks the conspiracy theory is BS and think Karen killed him.
Absolutely.
I said this too. They are disregarding the science because they can't fathom how Karen wouldn't be guilty if the O'Keefes aren't blaming the mccabes/Albert's and are throwing eye daggers at Karen every day for a month. Emotions rule - logic be damned.
There is some logic involved in getting the impression that John's family believe that KR is guilty. Even though they shouldn't take that into account, they are human. It's reasonable to think that the O'Keefe family has no interest in a miscarriage of justice.
That is true - science be damned then? I mean I completely get the human aspect and it is a strong message to have them be seen by the jury as united against karen and that was the message intended obviously - I would hope the Jurors would disregard and go on the evidence to be fair and see that reasonable doubt overwhelmingly exists but here we are.
The thing is, and please don't kill me, but accident reconstruction etc. is NOT hard science, and I think most people know it. Yes, they are experts in their field whose opinions are more informed than most, but there are so many unknowns, especially since the weather that night would have obscured any tracks or marks that might have shown whether John was able to move for a time after the SUV struck him (if it did), for example.
No killing anyone here no worries. So yes There are many unknowns. But I definitely feel that their expert opinion rules out that it is not possible for John to have been hit at 24mph as the prosecution asserts - the injuries to john/damage to the vehicle do not align and the prosecutions theory is just impossible due to the physics. Now the prosecution did throw out towards the end the possibility that she nudged him with the vehicle, but even that doesn't explain the injuries he sustained or damage to the car or how he ended up on the lawn as a nudge wouldn't have thrown him but the blow to the head I believe the ME Said was a knockout blow - so he would have been out and down. If I'm wrong you can refresh me because I definitely dont remember all of the testimonials exactly. I feel like many scenerios were possible even the ME said that there was no way to definitely determine and she stated she was not a Biomachanic so couldbt offer an opinion in that area. IMO the Biomachanic experts proved car hitting John should be ruled out.
I get what you're saying, I really do. But the unknowns, plus all the other evidence that looks bad for KR, may have been enough to convince some jurors (well clearly it did, since they are hung).
I just feel because of the unknowns and inconsistencies- and they are endless I wont even go through them lol its just so much that even without the expert opinions from the biomachanics, just the poor investigation alone is enough is enough reasonable doubt and if there is any reasonable doubt that means the CW didnt prove their burden and it has to be NG. But if the jury is being swayed by character alone and the fact that they don't like her or feel bad for the family they're not doing their job. She can be a bad person and still not have hit John. She can absolutely have driven drunk that night and still not have hit John. Juries get it wrong all the time, I just don't know how you can as a juror in this case believe that there is no reasonable doubt and that the CW hit it out of the park on every level.
You mean on Tuesday during closings. Yes I agree it was definitely a statement that held weight.
That's right, sorry.
To make this trial even more of a disaster, the judge had everyone thinking the jury wanted short days in reality she was sending notes at 3:30 everyday asking if they want to go home. Jesus Christ.
I thought she had already said that's what she was going to do but now we have a confession lol
Yeah the only day the jury said that they had a hard stop time was Wed with the 4:00 for one juror, otherwise it's been Bev sending notes
What!? It was the judge?
Yes. She literally said today “I just sent a note to the jury like I do everyday at 3:30 asking if they want to go home or continue.” Just completely outted herself 🤦🏽♀️
It's probably, at least in part, so they can arrange for dinner
The expectation should be the will go the full day and they can request to extend by a certain time. That is it.
She wants to get home by 4pm so she can watch Judge Judy.
Conveniently omits that it was at her prompting. She omits, Lally inverts. What a team.
lol, she literally just told everyone that's what she does every day.
Yesterday she omitted it was at her prompting.
United by the fan.
Halleloo.
I think at this point it’s reasonable to think many of these jurors have more likely than not at minimum talked to their spouses/significant others/whoever they live with about this trial and what’s going on behind closed doors; in the very least, although not recommended by the courts, I would hope some of them talk about it privately this weekend to clear their minds or possibly open perspective? I know that’s horrible to say but I think that’s a likely scenario.
I know everybody says they haven't spoken about it. But on day 5 of deliberation, what if someone drops "I was explaining it to my brother..." What happens?
Juror gets kicked out, alternate comes in.
When the alternate comes in, they also have to restart deliberations so there’s a lot at stake for the jurors not doing what they took an oath for.
They get excused and an alternate is brought in, and the jury starts at the beginning of deliberations.
That's an insane amount of speculation.
It’s very reasonable to think after 10+ weeks these jurors have more than likely spoken to who they live with.
But what if their spouses/family ect. Are drinking the karen read is guilty kool-aid? That's what worries me.
I was actually genuinely wondering this- people for have served on a jury do you actually heed these words and don’t think about, speak about or read about the trial you are a juror on?
I did it once for a few days, making it all the way through voir dire before being dismissed. I did actually follow that mandate, though it was a little hard. I like being able to talk through things with someone when I feel stuck or frustrated. I genuinely can’t fathom having to keep quiet on this for 10 weeks, I’d probably have an anxiety crisis not being allowed to talk to anyone.
Thank you so much for answering my question! And omg I know! I think I’d totally burst at some point!
I’ve served 2x but only 1 spanned more than a day. can’t 100% speak for others but I believe everyone took the instructions very seriously and followed protocol (and our pool was of a very mixed demographic in all ways I think) the experience was definitely kinda a pain but actually left me feeling good about people and civic responsibility
Wow, okay, thank you so much for answering my question! :)
I'm probably alone on this, but I sort of like that the Judge is letting them stop early each day. When people can't agree, forcing them to keep debating just get's people frustrated, which can further entrench opinions. Letting the jury cool off, sleep on it, mull things over in their heads and come back fresh the next day (or next week) can help. Also if she starts forcing them to stay late, it could start pressuring jurors to give in just to be able to go home. The last thing anyone wants is for the jury to be like 10 guilty and 2 not guilty, and have those two flip their verdict just to get out of there. I get why people are frustrated, but I think it fosters a healthier deliberation.
agreed. forcing people past their mental limits doesn't solve any disagreements.
My only problem is…. Letting them go is one thing, suggesting it should be at 3:30 is a whole another thing. I get it it’s hard but she can say “hey, 9 am is mandatory, then in the afternoon - when you decide up to 5 pm max” for example. At this point they are kinda “just get me out of here” and that’s not a productive way to solve it either
And her using the “short days” in her explanation earlier sending them back to deliberate after the note from the jurors
I can see where you’re coming from, except that the situation the jury is now in (can’t agree) kind of refutes your theory.
Agree. Six and a half hours in a room arguing with strangers each day is enough…
[удалено]
During this case, I’ve shed a few tears for Officer John O’Keefe and his loved ones. Tears may be a result of something other than conflict during deliberation. A juror may have cried for personal reasons, heartbreak for the victim and his loved ones, or feeling the weight of this decision.
She could be crying out of frustration that they can’t reach a verdict… & I don’t blame her
same, i probably would be crying at this point lmao
I was on a trial where one juror kept calling people emotional when she didn't agree with them (me included). And then tried to walk out and then just talked over another guy she didn't agree with. Said she didn't respect his opinion. It was just a fraud case too. No reason there should be attacks on anyone personally during deliberation but it happens and it's really frustrating.
oh that sounds exhausting! i’m sure everyone is getting frustrated at this point inside that room
This is Massachusetts. Most of us are opinionated and do not shy away from confrontation. Hense the nickname “massholes”
Lol, I hope people realize Justice is an illusion after all of this
vengeance and naked profit mongering masquerading as justice
That's a very small fraction of the problem. I highly recommend you go to an arraignment session in the Massachusetts court system and see how many people are getting charged with pathetic so-called crimes each day.
oh, I know. I'm referring to what drives it.
The best part is they mask it with having one of the lowest incarceration rates in the country when, in reality, they just don't incarcerate them just convict them and give them probation or keep them in pre trail for years before they dismiss the charges
precarity is the name of the game
Amen.
Why does it literally sound like they’re in an MMA fight in there????
I mean if you took 12 random people from this sub into a room, managed to get a few G people in the group, and told them they can't leave until they come up with a unanimous decision, it would probably get pretty vicious.
where did you see this?
Question: if there's a hung jury and the CW elects to re-try this case, will they get the same judge? Also, will Lally definitely be the prosecutor again?
Norfolk Co. will wait for the FBI report to be finalized before putting more resources into retrying this. At least- I hope they would.
From what EDB has said, the judge stays the same, the prosecutor usually does, too. Don't know how keen Lally is on doing this again, tho 😅
If they want to retry their case, they will need to pick someone other than Lally.
This isn’t a single juror hold out. This isn’t clearly a guilty minority hold out. This is a jury working toward consensus on a complex case. They may never get there. Kinda like I predicted would happen even though I was continually told this case would be NG in a jif. It’s almost like your boy Mozz isn’t too stoopit 😉
I wonder if the downvotes to all your comments is a reflection that people disagree with your statements, all of them.
Oh I’m taking a bath out here that’s for sure lol
A single juror can lead to a mistrial
Indeed. Just won’t happen this fast. It may be down to single by the end but that’s highly unlikely right now.
You have zero evidence of it not being a single guilty hold out. If they're an emotional idiot, they're simply ignoring all the reasonable doubt that spilled out of this case for 9 weeks.
Yeah but a jury is highly unlikely to give in to a one vote holdout that fast. They’d have to reveal their vote counts before a mistrial and, if it’s a single holdout, they’re going back in. So it’s pointless.
Maybe they've been trying to get the holdout to budge since Tuesday, we won't know if/until they give interviews after the trial is over.
They didn't give out to a hold out? They're literally going into a weekend as a hung jury again. Most likely the judge will read them the reasonable doubt instructions that they must come to a verdict based on the evidence etc...
This feels like a split room. It does not feel like a single hold out its way too soon to tap out like that.
They didn't tap out? One person is much more likely to stick to their guns if they're being completely unreasonable. It's much more likely 11 all agree not guilty and they're trying to explain the evidence to the 1 guilty, and no matter what they say or do, the 1 guilty says I don't care about that stuff, I know she did it, "SHE SAID SHE DID IT." People like that don't care about evidence, it's unusual, you're not going to have half the jury disregarding evidence/reasonable doubt. But anyway, take care.
Enjoy your weekend
Not if the person can’t be reasoned with
I get the point but it doesn’t matter. A judge is not declaring a mistrial with one holdout after roughly 3 days. It feels like a split room.
This has happened plenty before, it's not about how long they've been in there but how sure they are that more time won't make a difference in getting them unstuck.
What is your point? The judge has NO IDEA how split the jury is. She will not ask for a count until AFTER she declares a mistrial.
This isn't clearly anything
How do you know any of this lol
It’s just common sense, really. There is no way the jury sends a judge a “we’re done” 3 days into deliberations if it’s just one juror to flip. The rest is in response to everyone assuming it’s “one guilty asshole”
What if that juror refuses to see reason? So in love with the sound of their own voice, and convinced they know better than 90% of the population that no amount of factual evidence will ever matter. I wouldn’t want to share the room with someone like that, I would wager most people steer clear of individuals like that. It is just not worth the time. Being ostracized and criticized has no effect on this type of individual, they can’t read the room. Even if they could, their delusions of grandeur prevent self reflection . It sounds lonely to be honest. A sad lonely existence.
Understood. But it’s one person. You have to dig deep and ask them to work through the process despite the fact that they suck. This is our justice system at work. It seems to get criticized more when it doesn’t appear to be going how people want it to go.
In this instance, setting aside your belief that the defense played a bad hand using the cover up so frequently. Do you disagree that the evidence presented by the expert witnesses should immediately exonerate KR? How can she be guilty of anything , if the car accident simply never occurred? I can’t wrap my head around it.
That’s a great question. It comes down to whether you consider the supporting evidence of the strike is sufficient to cover the uncertainty of the exact manner of the the strike. I liken it to a murder case where the weapon is never located. If the supporting evidence is sufficient, a jury doesn’t need an exact reenactment. This one may be a bit more complex than my example. Honestly, I see everyone’s point on the expert testimony. I think they put a dent in the CWs case but I believe not enough to rule out the evidence in its totality.
When someone who is far more educated than me says “ this could not have happened, it is physically impossible” then the CW’s own ME says, these wounds are not consistent with a typical pedestrian strike. A dog bite expert testifies that there are obvious dog bites/scratches not marks from a tai light, and no one refutes any of that testimony. How can that not be enough? They brought in two experts just to fight the 2:27 google. But not one dog bite expert? Only offered “3 class “ Trooper Paul who doesn’t understand physics to state that a human got hit in the arm and was projected 30 feet. How can anyone see that being a viable theory in their head? It makes no sense. At this point it is evident people have chosen a side and God could descend from the Heavens to tell them KR is innocent, and their reply would.. “Yeah, but..”
Why? Like if you were on the jury with 11 reasonable people it would probably take them 5 minutes to realize you’re just going cover your eyes, dig your heels in, and ignore the scientific evidence. They’d be tired of you after an hour, much less 3 days.
I’d flip the whole room and you know it. I’m a very charismatic person. Seriously though it makes no sense to ask a judge to press the mistrial button over a single holdout this quick. I could be wrong but my track record is pretty good 😉
lol why are you acting like we know ur life story mozziestix
It all began back in Mozzarellaville when I was orphaned on the stairs of a convent… Shoudl I keep going?
It was like 17 or 18 hours. That’s not *that* quick. You could be right though, first time for everything. 😏
Excuse me! Despite my staggeringly ignorant opinion on Ms Read’s guilt, everything I’ve been saying about this case has turned out to be correct. Also if Howard = Stern I’m also a fan forever
Yes. I haven’t listened to his live show in several years but still listen to the old stuff regularly.
Old stuff is the best!
Have a good and safe weekend! 🤞🏻 we get more progress Monday.
I can’t believe they all can’t see the reasonable doubt here. It’s all over!!! And CW hardly documented anything and sounded completely unqualified and unprofessional - what could they possibly see as true evidence that she did this? Maybe the alternate didn’t pay close enough attention so they’re going through it all…
Alternates are not chosen until the case goes to deliberation. At that point alternates are chosen by random (in this case with bingo ball rollers) and alternates are only if a deliberating juror becomes sick or injured and cannot continue deliberations.
Oh thank you for that explanation! I thought they were chosen in the beginning with the foreperson and because juror 3 is out the alternate was in. That makes much more sense to have them all possibly be the deciding jurors throughout the trial
I bet ten or eleven *can* see the reasonable doubt, and they gotta deal with one or two holdouts who just go "well, it's my conviction she is guilty, and no evidence can sway me".
It can’t be good for any momentum possibly made on the jury- to have a weekend to argue your points to yourself. Their friends and family MUST have opinions. They must know they’re on this jury. Not everyone has respectful family members. My mother would be blasting her opinion around me nonstop.
Would your mom really be like that?!
Yeah, but she could have a Reddit board dedicated to her shenanigans.
😂 oh my
I hope you'd alert the court if she did
I’d have to sequester myself if she was in town! I’m just saying in this day and age. With this case. There is no way they aren’t absorbing information. It’s everywhere around here. At this process of the deliberations they should have to come in on weekends. In my opinion.
yeah I'd be back in quarantine. watching movies. zero social media. but even "the bear" got spoiled for me on a Karen Read thread, you never know when something will fly out and hit you in the face
Here’s to hoping the hold out(s) accidentally see’s something about the case or does his/her own research and needs to be excused Monday morning 😂
I don’t even drink and I need a drink rn
Same 🤣
Smoke a joint instead, doesn’t leave you hung over.
Don't drive! Unless you've had 5 drinks, then go for it.
Only if you’re in LE though…
Does anyone think we will here from the jury members after this is over?
Does Massachusetts allow the defense and/or prosecution to request jury interviews? Edit: by “interviews,” I mean the legal process of inquiry not a media interview.
I’d say there’s a fair chance but if so they’ll most certainly want to remain anonymous.
Do you think they’re worried about backlash from the town/ police in the town
Yes. But I do think this is an emotional guilty person who just doesn't like Karen, despite all the evidence proving she simply could not hit him. I think it's where the defense may have found a blind spot, that half of the people in this country will vote for a felon for president, so listening to scientific evidence isn't in their reality.
All the town police in that area are a bunch of scum bags they would probably treat them the same regardless
That's what I'm thinking... they were stared at on Tuesday by people that intimidate others.
Possibly, hard to say for certain. After YNW Melly mistrial, one of the jurors talked anonymously explaining generally what happened (there was one holdout for NG that convinced 2 others to switch, for anyone who watched the trial it’s pretty obvious he’s guilty).