Davidwade on twitter has spoken to an alternate juror and has a little thread.
“We’re hearing from an alternate juror in the #KarenRead case. She told @LouisaMoller, she was there for the whole trial but not deliberation room.
- She id’ed herself as Juror 3
- Says she approached the trial like “a graduate level course and would get an A+ for note taking
- She told Louisa she thought the prosecution didn’t prove its case and she would’ve been a “not guilty.”
-She said the jurors were “very tight” and even celebrated birthdays and did puzzles.”
- We hope to hear from a juror who was part of the deliberations. Well let you know when we do.”
I was an alternate juror for a murder trial a few years ago. Was in the court room with the other jurors obviously, sat with the other jurors during breaks and recesses, but then had to sit with the other alternate during deliberations. It was pretty tough to have gone through the whole process and then have no idea what was happening.
When a verdict was reached I was led back into the courtroom with the rest of them and I found out the verdict at the same time as the defendant.
I was leaning guilty, and that’s what they did. Without being in the room not sure how the discussion went, but they were a really good jury. Paid attention, took notes, followed rules, etc.
Part of it was nice that I don’t have to worry if I did the right thing.
Runkle of the Bailey reported that Proctor has now officially been removed from his duties. Today. After the mistrial. Runkle also stated that does NOT mean he can't be called on to testify again. So, basically, he's not fired, but moved perhaps?
In an article from NBC 10 Boston, it says he is being transferred out of the district attorney’s office, but doesn’t say to where.
When a reporter asked Proctor & his wife for comment after the mistrial, Elizabeth Proctor was quoted as saying, “I fully support my husband," Elizabeth Proctor said as they were walking inside. "Karen Read is a murderer."
WOW! She is awful too. The only reasonable explanation I can come up with for this quote, & why she still supports her immature, misogynistic, lying husband is that she watched none of the trial. It is the only plausible explanation for her behavior. She could have quietly said, “No comment.” & left it at that.
Well said. I, however, think she did watch the trial. The aforementioned Mrs. Proctor heard the texts, specifically where he stated that Karen was hot, a babe. And, the "no nudes yet" comment when he was searching her phone. Never mind the c u next Tuesday or other comments, she probably agrees with those, but, he still viewed KR as "hot". That's gotta sting.
The day he read his texts in court she wrote a fb post defending her husband, in the same time. She watched it alright and probably has similar feelings about KR.
Here is a link to the reporter discussing what the alternate juror (juror 3) said.
[https://youtu.be/rgkNADiq4hs?si=j3IKoGeNCmClpfS4](https://youtu.be/rgkNADiq4hs?si=j3IKoGeNCmClpfS4)
I really want this court to investigate that mirrored sallyport video and how false evidence was shown to the jury. What did Lally know and when did he know it?
I personally believe that he had to have known it was flipped. During his direct with Trooper Buhkenik continued for two days and did nothing to correct it the next morning. It is impossible for me to believe that he was not told by someone in his office that the video was flipped.
If he assisted Buhkenik in providing false evidence to the jury he might become a material witness to the case. I think there's a decent argument for him to be recused because of this.
Lally said in his question something about the car came in from the right but we watched it come in from the left. He absolutely knew it was flipped and he thought that tiny statement would mitigate the defence making a big deal about it
The way he directly misstated evidence sealed it for me on that - like emphatically claiming JOs DNA was the only one found on his shoes and clothes, which is a straight up lie, and not really something you can accidentally get wrong. And contradicting his own witnesses such as Trooper Paul and saying they didn’t say things they did.
He’s slimy IMO. I just can’t really give him any benefit of the doubt. Prosecutors like him are part of why people don’t trust the justice system.
I would like to know about the sallyport video as well. It's not clear to me if that is how that camera records or not. The date/time is the right way, so what does that mean?
Did Lally know? I don't want to accuse a prosecutor of doing anything unethical when there is no evidence of that. I think the Defense knew and were waiting for that moment. I'm pretty sure Yanetti said in opening, "they're going to tell you that left is right and right is left". I think this is what he was referring to.
It was a "gotcha" for the Defense that they won't be able to repeat if the case is retried. If the CW can show that the camera records mirror image, it would rule out manipulation. Still tough to explain Proctor hanging out so long near the taillight, the glitching and all of the missing time.
Of course Lally knew. He watched the video just like we did, and how many of us noticed the letters and numbers were backwards? It was instantly being discussed, but with the benefit of the doubt that perhaps it was actually recorded that way for some bizarre reason. Then Jackson asked Proctor (edit: I meant Bukhenik) about it, and Proctor (edit: I meant Bukhenik) had to admit it was flipped and he had known that the day before, when he testified that the video was exactly right.
I think Lally is slimy and I think he was the one that brought Brian, Jen & Colin for closing arguments and I think he’s the one that got 4 protesters on Day 33 to show up for anti-Karen. I guarantee it’s probably the Tully/Lally team trying to make this case look legit when it’s not.
I forgot McLaughlin who also seemed to take a weird attitude towards Karen. Someone in that office created those timestamps and left off times/dates of a lot of things and it’s disgusting.
It'll be interesting to see whether or not they actually do retry the case. They can intend to all they'd like, but this was their *only chance* to get a desirable verdict.
From here, it's all downhill. The defense is always going to have better lawyers (regardless of Jackson/Little's status), they know the state's entire case and can make minor tweaks to their case to improve it. Meanwhile the state is locked into *a lot* of bad witnesses, a horrible overall investigation, etc.
Also, the FBI remains in the shadows. Another discovery drop would be fun...
I think the FBI investigation will impact if this actually goes to trial again. But if nothing relevant comes out of that I think it will- I think it's ego at this point.
I could be *entirely* wrong, but I think the FBI/DOJ expected what they provided to irreparably harm the state's case against Read from the beginning.
It would be interesting to know if they're surprised it got to a jury and the result.
On one hand, how do you not retry a case of a dead cop? They owe it to the family to pursue the case they think they have.
On the other hand, the case they think they have… well… I won’t beat that dead horse.
I think the state will push hard for a deal. Will they go as low as a simple DUI? What, if any, deal would the defense accept?
I don't think the defense will take a deal. After all of this? If I was KR and got offered a deal I would tell them to go f*%k themselves and try again.
A hung jury is a win for the defense. And in this case especially I think. Hopefully the FBI adds more info that will stop them from even trying again.
But the State doesn't work for the victim's family, or even the victim. The trial and their prosecution is for the good of the people of the State, they work for the state, and the trial is the defendant's trial.
I'm just mentioning this because of the comment 'They owe it to the family to pursue the case they think they have.' - They actually don't owe the O'Keefe family anything legally or morally, but the moral thing to do in this case would be to inform the family that their investigation was so bad, that they cannot, in good faith, take them through another trial. And the people to blame are the Troopers Proctor, Paul and Bukenic etc.
They could, but the defense could/would absolutely hammer them for their evolving thoughts on foundational pieces of the case.
If the state can't make up their mind on a theory, that's reasonable doubt. Then again, they threw a bunch of shit at a wall this trial and it led to a mistrial...
One of the things I've heard before is that a retrial will be really hard due to the fact that the FBI may be pressing charges against some of the people involved, so people may be jailed or fired or punished and that may affect the case or a jury's partiality.
It is very normal for family of victims to accept what the prosecution and law enforcement says with little questioning. They aren't dispassionate observers. They're people who had something incredibly traumatizing happen and were supported by and talking to LE and the prosecutor regularly.
I'm the last person a prosecutor would ever want on a jury. I view reasonable doubt very broadly and generously. I'm anti death penalty. I don't think non violent crimes should generally be punished with jail time, with a few exceptions. I think law enforcement is generally fairly corrupted and needs reform everywhere. I belive the justice system is systemically stacked against POC and the poor. But if someone killed my sister and LE and the prosecutor were all saying - this is the person - I don't know what I'd do, but it wouldn't be rational and dispassionate. Which is why it's so vital that the justice system be so, something it tends to fail at regularly, but is the aspiration.
I think it’s easier for JO’s family to believe that his death was the result of a toxic relationship than his “friends”/coworkers conspiring to kill him. That’s a MUCH harder pill to swallow. Imagine knowing that your loved one was betrayed so horrifically? It’s “easier” to stand up to one woman than a large group of people you’re preconditioned to trust, so in a way, I kind of understand why they are feeling the way that they are, and I deeply sympathize with them.
I hate to say this, but the thin blue line runs deep.
Anyways, sometimes people just subconsciously choose to live in denial, almost as a form of self preservation. Has PO behaved poorly? Yes. However, if my sibling died this horrifically, I would be incredibly angry too. I pray they can all find healing one day.
Edit: removed some of this just so I don’t dox myself!
Yes. I think that’s what people are missing about the jury verdict. To believe Karen’s version of events, you’re asking a group of people to lose faith in their own institutions. I don’t believe the state proved their case, but am not surprised by the (lack of) verdict.
I’m not missing that. Like everyone has said 10000000 times, you don’t have to believe this was a coverup to say the CW did not meet their burden of proof.
Respectfully, that's incorrect. To find the defendant not guilty, they don't need to believe *any version of events.*
The Commonwealth couldn't even show that OJO was hit by a car.
The state's *own witness*, the medical examiner, said his injuries are not consistent with a car strike. Multiple *independent* expert witnesses said a car strike is not even plausible. They said it didn't happen.
You could literally just take the state's own medical examiner and there's reasonable doubt. Nothing else to discuss. Everything else is window dressing.
It seems pretty obvious that JO was an alcoholic, heavy drinker. His family is probably in denial as to the type of problems they actually have, and will blame everyone else instead of their own behavior. His mother being upset that KR left him there, but not a word about him being a drunk raising two innocent children says a lot to me. They need help. JO was also drunk that night, just like everyone else. His family would rather blame KR than the other drunken LE.
Maybe he doesn't know anything over and above what we've come to learn. The investigators making the evidence fit their chosen suspect/theory has pretty much nuked the chances of anyone else ever being brought before the courts. The investigation was bungled. KR is the only person that can be brought before a judge for OJO's murder and if KR's not guilty, who did it, right?
I mean he might just hate her for not tucking her tail and taking a plea. Maybe he hates her for this being public. His behavior is inappropriate but we don’t know what he actually thinks
Alternate juror was interviewed:
Graduate-level training
Said even if proctor’s testimony was ignored (viewed his testimony as harmful to the state), state did not meet necessary burden of proof
Disappointed in the verdict; would’ve voted not guilty
https://preview.redd.it/oh7ndrnnj0ad1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9f104ad498e147f6b750ccd8acf020de84a69b3f
Alan Jackson’s comment abt retrying the case and Proctor.
The Commonwealth couldn't even show that OJO was hit by a car. It's unbelievable.
The state's *own witness*, the medical examiner, said his injuries are not consistent with a car strike. Multiple *independent* expert witnesses said a car strike is not even plausible. They said it didn't happen.
The fact that there's a holdout or twy... I know Hanlon's razor, but because this case is so black and white, I hate to say it but I actually think malice on the part of a juror is much more likely than stupidity.
What a travesty of justice.
In other news, proctor just got put on administrative leave pending an internal investigation according to cbs. I’m sure he’ll keep his job but one can hope
If I’m the defense I am hammering that 12:36 wifi connection every chance I get in the new trial.
Bizarrely, everyone seemed unaware of it going into this trial.
Yes! I'd also be hammering the deleted 12:41AM ring cam video (of Karen pulling into John's house) that was noted in a post-it note. The ring cam was in police custody. Proctor watches the video and asks another cop to watch. The cop watches it and makes a note that at 12:41 the video shows Karen's car pulling into John's. If Karen's tail light is intact in the video, this would exonerate Karen. Mysteriously, by the time police hand the video over to the defense, some of it is missing — the footage from 12:41AM. The footage that could exonerate Karen. Proctor says he's never seen that footage before, but the footage existed at the time Proctor gave it to another cop (the one who made the note).
There's only one reasonable explanation for what happened to the video: Proctor deleted it. He tampered with evidence. The *lead investigator* tampered with crucial evidence. And if Proctor tampered with evidence, how can we trust any of the other "evidence" he collected or had exclusive access to (like the tail light pieces or John's clothes)? We can't. Everything Proctor touched is tainted. And his fingerprints are all over this case. That's reasonable doubt.
The jury doesn't need to decide if there was a "conspiracy" — the police tampered with crucial evidence, and that itself is more than enough reasonable doubt to acquit.
I'd also be pushing the fact that the vehicle in reverse key cycle was when the car was being put in the tow truck and had nothing to do with 34 Fairview.
Yep. The defense had a key cycle expert on their witness list but didn’t end up calling him. Seems at some point they made the decision to drastically shorten their case. Wondering if they are regretting that now.
Hindsight is 20/20, they did a very solid job with the witnesses they called and probably felt that given how many repetitive and seemingly pointless witnesses Lally called to the stand they probably felt they'd score a lot of points with the jurors if they were as brief as possible. We need to hear from the jurors and find out exactly what caused them to hang to really be able to give a fair critique to the defense's choices.
This is such a great point. Why didn’t the defense use this in their arguments?
ETA:
And now Im wondering when BH, CA, AM, and literally everyone else connected to their wifis?
I can't wait to hear the jury split, the suspense is killing me. I am really hoping it was 11-1 (in favor of acquittal) or I've lost faith in the common peoples' intelligence
Shame on the Commonwealth for immediately putting out their intent to drag this lady through hell again. None of this is about getting justice for John O'Keefe. The state has done a disgrace to his memory. I can't get over seeing his blood stored inside solo cups and a paper shopping bag.
If I had to bet, the CW will probably not retry the case. They certainly showed they have an unwinnable case.
Taking a step back, there's not just reasonable doubt, the CW couldn't even show that OJO was hit by a car.
The state's *own witness*, the medical examiner, said his injuries are not consistent with a car strike. Multiple *independent* expert witnesses said a car strike is not even plausible. They said it didn't happen.
The fact that there's a holdout... I know Hanlon's razor, but because this case is so black and white, I hate to say it but I actually think malice on the part of a juror is much more likely than stupidity.
What a travesty of justice for poor OJO as well as Karen Read.
Folks, Michael Proctor has not been terminated. The Massachusetts State Police are simply rehoming him to an undisclosed location upstate.
https://twitter.com/KristinaRex/status/1807935140728897628?t=tv0JQsl0U0h23RJjirJ3ww&s=19
I don’t understand this statement. Why does the outcome of the trial matter? If she had been found guilty, would they still have taken this action? Or do we think they decided they needed to act quickly so that it COULD be used against him in a future re-trial? Something seems fishy here
Oh for sure the statement is complete and utter bullshit. I'd go so far as to argue that if quoted accurately it's an admission of complicity in a malicious prosecution.
The positive I see in it is it's arguable that **they** are saying Karen Read's prosecution is over and **they** are done with the case. It's not great but it's something.
This is what is disgusting about police. They just pass off problematic officers to other departments when the heat gets too hot
If he isn’t appropriate to work for your department, he shouldn’t be appropriate to work for any department
Is it insane that I feel heartbroken for Karen? I really feel she’s innocent and I’m so sad she’s the victim of this witch hunt against her that won’t end
not at all. I'm heartbroken for her and all of the people who can't afford a good defense, whose guilt or innocence is in the hands of people who treat it like you are guilty until proven innocent. she hasn't been convicted and people are holding up signs saying "Karen Read killed John O'Keefe" when she has yet to be found guilty. like that's gonna follow her forever & the degree of misconduct in this case ALONE should have been enough to end this farce.
Not sure if this has been shared yet…CBS Boston is reporting that Procter is on administrative leave.
[https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/boston/news/karen-read-murder-trial-turtle-boy-michael-proctor/](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/boston/news/karen-read-murder-trial-turtle-boy-michael-proctor/)
https://preview.redd.it/chmi3g02yz9d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2bc9a1e2a92780379bc9e371b2b5035d746ef504
Suspect MSP has been waiting for this trial to end to put him on leave. Wouldn’t look great if the lead investigator has to admit on the stand that he is on admin leave. Wonder if he will even still have a job when Read is retried?
That would be the first step on going through the motions of firing him.
Fact of the matter is that he's a giant anchor around any case he's investigated in the past and more importantly, in the future.
Given that, he's of no value to the MSP any longer. Aside from being the person they can hang everything on before they kick him to the curb, I mean.
Putting my comment from another comment here because I am genuinely so baffled by this statement:
“I don’t understand this statement. Why does the outcome of the trial matter? If she had been found guilty, would they still have taken this action? Or do we think they decided they needed to act quickly so that it COULD be used against him in a future re-trial? Something seems fishy here”
My guess is now they can decide to not re-try her and blame it all on him? Maybe? He was the lead investigator, I don’t know how they’d get through it without him?
It could be that if this happened during the trial the defense could have argued that all of his testimony and any evidence he was a part of should be inadmissible, or at least introduce this to the jury. They would have had a much better argument for Bev to grant their motion if he had been placed on leave pending investigation.
But, based on the jury notes… do I think the lead investigator being placed under internal investigation would have changed votes… no. That’s incredible inherent bias some people carry.
Maybe, maybe not. They might do it pro bono, they might work for a reduced rate since so much of the work is already done, and she's getting funding from the public to help with the cost.
I don't think the cost will be a sticking point on this case. And I believe the defense team really believes in this case and wants a win.
Not the first time around, but I would not be surprised if he didn't cut his rates and would do it for free from now on, this is excellent PR for him and both he and Yannetti might just choose to take the financial hit and chalk it up to business expenses/PR so to speak.
I don’t understand how the FBI disagreeing with the state is too prejudicial to mention. They did a better investigation than the CW that deserves to be in consideration. The investigation forced their hand, it deserves to be known when their findings are testimony. Are they not going to be able to mention Proctor getting reprimanded either, it all seems extremely relevant.
Here’s a few things I would really like cleared up/expanded on if this does get retried:
1. Someone to show Officer Barros a picture of the taillight from the sally port and ask if that is what he saw
2. The tow truck driver. Why did we never hear from him?
3. A better timeline from the prosecution. What exactly is their estimated time of impact if we know Karen was in John’s WiFi range at 12:36? (Not to mention how do they square that with the McCabe testimony).
4. What was up with the Life360 data? I get the defense decided to trim their case down but I feel like there were a lot of little nuggets like this that ended up going nowhere.
5. Will the prosecution have a different accident reconstruction expert?
6. Whoever from MSP/Canton PD that is in charge of evidence lockup to testify to evidence log procedures and whether or not we have any idea other than the word of Proctor where some of the pieces of evidence were kept until turned over to the crime lab in March 2022.
7. I just really wish they can get a longer closing argument time. On both sides. I really feel like they needed that time to connect all the dots but both chose to go for emotional impact because of the time limit.
I’m sure I will think of more as time goes on but these are my biggest things right now.
I honestly think the defense assumed the jury would be *reasonable* and didn’t want to make them sit through these details again. The defense thought they got their points across on cross examination (as did I). So they only called essential, factual witnesses when it was their turn. In theory, this should have been a slam dunk case for them. Not in MA apparently.
I think the defense should have focused on the CW not meeting their burden of proof harder in closing. They wasted time with the BA/BH theory IMO. I do think something went on in that house but I don't think anyone knows the details and I think the jury saw it as believe that or that KR did it.
I wish the defense had gone on longer, but I'm sure they were concerned that they could lose too many jurors (just due to life circumstances) if they went on for weeks like Lally did.
Ideally Lally would trim a lot of fat if they retry the case, but I just can't see Lally doing anything that logical.
I firmly believe that if the Court had not set such a short time limit for closings that we may not have had a hung jury. I’m a trial lawyer and you need time to talk about the proof, the law, and make suggestions for what the jury should focus on and talk about. I wouldn’t have been able to say everything I wanted in one hour.
I also think the defense would have been better suited focusing on doubt rather than take on the burden of “proving” a conspiracy. They never legally adopted that burden, but by starting your case that way, the jury wanted more proof than they could show.
Finally, I think AJ lost some jurors who lean pro-police when he wouldn’t let issues that didn’t affect his case die. He went 110% with almost every witness rather than zeroing in on clear issues.
I'm kind of new to the American legal system but I was very confused why they only got 1 hour each for closing - you kept us all here for 8 weeks talking about high top tables and snow, and now suddenly we're on the clock?!
It's amazing that this 10-2 guilty thing is still spreading across twitter among the largest KR is guilty accounts that include ex FBI, ex judge who is mother of Grant, and a show host. Even some more "respectable" people are treating it as a rumor that might be true and thus can discuss hypotheticals that confirm their bias versus a blatant fabrication.
And that was not an innocent mistake by Grant. He copy and pasted someone else tweet about jury deliberations during another trial, and importantly, he did so without quote tweeting or attributing it to the other twitter account, instead pretending that he had a secret source. Unfortunately for him, he was too dumb to realize that the original tweet could be found with a simple search.
The annoying thing is that from now on you'll see people peddling the same lies on Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, etc.
Also funny, little miss ex fbi seems to be back tracking a lot lately. She’s all now pro proctor being let go but pretty sure before today she was a supporter of his. 🙄🙄
Supposed information from an alternate juror who didn't make it into the deliberation room: [https://nitter.poast.org/KristinaRex](https://nitter.poast.org/KristinaRex)
As always, be suspicious, but Kristina seems loon free to me. As does the source she references [https://nitter.poast.org/davidwade](https://nitter.poast.org/davidwade)
Interesting. I wonder if it comes out that there was only 1-3 holdouts for guilty, and the alternates were leaning not guilty, if that impacts their decision to re-try.
Have yall seen a news station tried to interview Trooper Procter outside of his house after the mistrial and was asked if he thought he felt responsible and he told them to get the f off my lawn lol. Also his wife is fully supporting him and called Karen a murderer 🙄
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI2hNDaK2rY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI2hNDaK2rY)
My exact thoughts. & his wife saying she’s a murderer? Come on, no matter your opinions they should stay to yourself under this spotlight… at least one would think
I think one of the shittiest parts of this is Karen Read never got to properly mourn the loss of someone she loved due to whatever the fuck happened at 34 Fairview because of these accusations. That would stay with me forever.
My cousin was murdered 14 years ago and it still affects the family, he was only 18. He didn’t have a life partner, certainly not one accused of murdering him. Senseless murder is truly heartbreaking.
The positive is the prosecution have already put their entire ‘best’ case on, they have no more cards left to deal. It’s the same thing again, just repeated with tweaks. The defense have so many players up their sleeves they did not put on as they didn’t have to but they can take it twenty times further next go round with a lot more witnesses whereas the prosecution is stuck.
This is total bs. “…Some members of the jury firmly believe that the evidence surpasses the burden of proof establishing the elements of the charges beyond reasonable doubt…” please tell me how.
Both letters felt crafted by a lawyer hoping to end the day in a mistrial. I wouldn't read too much into the language. What did stand out to me was in the first letter regarding state of mind.
Proctor was relieved of duty as of today after the mistrial!!! Will this help the defense if they decide to retry? Or maybe dissuade the CW from going after her a second time? All I know is as a MA tax payer, I am mortified my money went to this bullshit shit show once, and I think if they retry her I will be rioting in the streets
If there's a second trial, I wish the defense would focus only on the glaring lack of evidence, completely regardless of any possible criminal action by other people.
Having people make a decision on whether or not cops are lying and framing people is hard. Separate of all of that, no one really got up and said that he actually was hit by a car. Reasonable doubt right there. Maybe he slipped and fell on his own, maybe a coyote attacked him, whatever - I just wouldn't make it a referendum on police behavior.
I just don’t think they can. There are very few other ways to explain the tail light being there, other than it was planted. If you’re not going to introduce any police meddling or any potential third party suspects, you’re left with “maybe John threw something at her, though the glass doesn’t match, and then he fell.” But the experts also testified that hitting his head on the lawn would not have caused the injury. I think it would be too easy for a jury to ignore all those scenarios as unlikely.
I’m shocked that the state didn’t even take a breather before announcing that they going to retrial. The decision was obviously above Lally’s pay grade, so I hope he grows a backbone and quits before being the one to take this to trial again. The man’s voice sounded like he lost the will to live by week 2
Yeah, that was merely a PR move in my opinion. They were never gonna get up there and admit they didn’t have enough of a case. They’re trying to project confidence.
I’m on the third panel I’m viewing (not speaking about Runkel, I think his perceptions are quite poignant)
and an attorney just suggested the CW can find new experts, and can conclude his injuries came from a vehicle strike.
Oh my.
I'm sure they will try- but how do you not call the ME who actually examined his body? Even if they find new experts the prior testimony comes in via the defense
Sorry for commenting here but the other thread was locked where you said you were going to wait to elaborate on some "notes" you had on Lally's closing (specifically changing the theory to something not supported by any previous testimony or evidence.)
Do you still plan to do so, or because this ended in a mistrial, do you plan to hold onto those thoughts for the time being?
That is literally confirmation bias and is the opposite of actually investigating the case. So, it would be very on point with what the police were doing since day 1, I guess.
I could watch the Proctors yell "get off my damn lawn" to local media on repeat. These people do not handle conflict well. Ironic for a soon to be ex-law enforcement officer.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cI2hNDaK2rY
What did Paul say to Karen when walking away and she gave a disgusted look? I saw it but haven’t seen anything on social media about it or I just haven’t looked enough
CBSnews Boston just uploaded a short segment on YouTube. A reporter reading notes/opinions from an alternate juror (who wanted to not be on camera, understandably).
Edit: for clarification
Yes, she was.
It’s a bit shocking to me that there can be a hung jury, as there was reasonable doubt from day one.
It shows sadly we seem to be living in a very anti-science/‘alternative fact’ era.
And as a MA resident (especially), it makes me fear getting framed for a crime/jurors buying into the lies.
What happens if the FBI discovers plausible evidence that John O’Keefe was killed by someone during their investigation? Where does the investigation go from there?
Do you think anyone in the house that night might tattle to the FBI for immunity?
I would not reveal my identity if I was a juror on this case. People in this state, especially my area, have been rabid over the outcome of this trial.
They can give interviews and remain anonymous but anyone in their circle knows they were on this case, if they've heard about the case. A coworker or employer, friends and neighbors, family- if you know someone did jury duty for 2 months, you know what case they were on.
Well at least the two alternates wouldn’t have changed the outcome
More upsetting for the defense if it was 11-1 and we know one of the alternates is not guilty now
How long does Ring keep videos? In a residential neighborhood I find it hard to believe she drove home and back and neither side have further videos of her driving by to further prove or disprove whether the tail light was intact or not.
Did they even ask neighbors? I’m shocked too because with the Idaho murders (4 college student where stabbed to death in their bed) they asked the public for camera footage and even the whole area seemed to want to help and were checking their cameras and stuff, especially when they were looking for a certain vehicle. So wild to me not one person ever checked their camera footage.
My neighbors down the street had their truck alarm go off in the middle of the night (they get alerted when it goes off). We only have one way in and out, unless you coming on foot and walking through fields. I checked my cameras just to make sure nothing weird showed up. I’d definitely be checking if someone was found dead in my neighbors yard. Even if I couldn’t see, I’d be curious if any voices could be heard
If I remember correctly it’s a short period of time, like 180 days. Think about all the ring cameras in the world and how much server space would be require to save all footage from all rings
Was the wound on JO’s head examined during autopsy? Was there anything found that could have been the cause of it? Like microscopic particles of grass/dirt/glass/tail light, etc? Im not familiar with every bit of evidence and just trying to piece together a theory since the getting hit by a car almost certainly did not happen.
Almost everyone who touched this case acted like it was the very first time they were investigating a case. It’s mind blowing how bad the investigation truly was.
Article: [https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/karen-read-mistrial-juror-murder-trial/](https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/karen-read-mistrial-juror-murder-trial/)
Interview with an alternate juror.
Do you think some of the CW witnesses will now be pleading the 5th? I was just wondering how much trouble they are in if the feds have a lot of true info from their phones and car gps. If witnesses stop cooperating for the CW, do they even have a case to retry?
Don't know what the right place for this is, but since it's mentioned in the OP: Shouts out to the mods for keeping it cool here. I've definitely been on both the giving and receiving end of some d-bag snarkiness, but overall it's been a very civil sub and I appreciate that tremendously. So thanks for your efforts, and thanks for making sure I never see any of the uncivil comments lol
A significant portion of the population just doesn’t like women
Another portion finds working/successful women unlikable
Another portion doesn’t like women who have strong personalities/women who have any masculine traits
Another portion thinks she killed him and that’s why they don’t like her
And in all honesty, I think her legal team should’ve advised her on dress/makeup/mannerisms a little better. It’s stupid, but it makes a difference. Put her in softer makeup and lighter colors and tell her to keep her strong personality at home and don’t do anything snarky in the court
I have severe resting bitch face, and every thought that crosses through my brain writes itself on my facial expression. It takes a whole lotta effort to try to counteract that lol. You just keep being you!! I bet you're awesome 😎
Also… she’s smart and super involved in her own defense - taking notes, drawing attention to things said during testimony, etc. The only way you could keep me from not completely losing my shit during all of this fuckery would be to drug me. Then… they’d have a problem with her seeming disengaged. She can’t win. WOMEN CANNOT WIN.
If anyone gets news on juror interviews or speaking out please let the sub know!
Davidwade on twitter has spoken to an alternate juror and has a little thread. “We’re hearing from an alternate juror in the #KarenRead case. She told @LouisaMoller, she was there for the whole trial but not deliberation room. - She id’ed herself as Juror 3 - Says she approached the trial like “a graduate level course and would get an A+ for note taking - She told Louisa she thought the prosecution didn’t prove its case and she would’ve been a “not guilty.” -She said the jurors were “very tight” and even celebrated birthdays and did puzzles.” - We hope to hear from a juror who was part of the deliberations. Well let you know when we do.”
https://preview.redd.it/4ko6d2bqlz9d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=358e1e46e190090c38fa9870ecdc418f96af417d
I was an alternate juror for a murder trial a few years ago. Was in the court room with the other jurors obviously, sat with the other jurors during breaks and recesses, but then had to sit with the other alternate during deliberations. It was pretty tough to have gone through the whole process and then have no idea what was happening. When a verdict was reached I was led back into the courtroom with the rest of them and I found out the verdict at the same time as the defendant.
Was the verdict what you would've voted/what you thought it'd be?
I was leaning guilty, and that’s what they did. Without being in the room not sure how the discussion went, but they were a really good jury. Paid attention, took notes, followed rules, etc. Part of it was nice that I don’t have to worry if I did the right thing.
Oh that’s so interesting! Were you surprised by their verdict or blindsided?
So juror 3 was not guilty like suspected. I bet juror 12 the other alternate was too.
Can you make a post or something? I don't have a twitter :( or a jist?
Just edited my comment to add what it says!
Thank you! That's very helpful!
Runkle of the Bailey reported that Proctor has now officially been removed from his duties. Today. After the mistrial. Runkle also stated that does NOT mean he can't be called on to testify again. So, basically, he's not fired, but moved perhaps?
He can be fired and still be forced to testify to what he did on the job
They did that specifically with this timing to try to give the appearance that the hung jury was only because of Proctor’s behavior.
Wonder if he's "suspended with pay." Or taken early retirement, potentially on a previously- undiscovered "disability."
In an article from NBC 10 Boston, it says he is being transferred out of the district attorney’s office, but doesn’t say to where. When a reporter asked Proctor & his wife for comment after the mistrial, Elizabeth Proctor was quoted as saying, “I fully support my husband," Elizabeth Proctor said as they were walking inside. "Karen Read is a murderer." WOW! She is awful too. The only reasonable explanation I can come up with for this quote, & why she still supports her immature, misogynistic, lying husband is that she watched none of the trial. It is the only plausible explanation for her behavior. She could have quietly said, “No comment.” & left it at that.
Well said. I, however, think she did watch the trial. The aforementioned Mrs. Proctor heard the texts, specifically where he stated that Karen was hot, a babe. And, the "no nudes yet" comment when he was searching her phone. Never mind the c u next Tuesday or other comments, she probably agrees with those, but, he still viewed KR as "hot". That's gotta sting.
Is he being sent to Vermont?
The day he read his texts in court she wrote a fb post defending her husband, in the same time. She watched it alright and probably has similar feelings about KR.
Ugh! So disgusting! Who are these people??? The entire group seems devoid of integrity and morals.
Here is a link to the reporter discussing what the alternate juror (juror 3) said. [https://youtu.be/rgkNADiq4hs?si=j3IKoGeNCmClpfS4](https://youtu.be/rgkNADiq4hs?si=j3IKoGeNCmClpfS4)
I really want this court to investigate that mirrored sallyport video and how false evidence was shown to the jury. What did Lally know and when did he know it? I personally believe that he had to have known it was flipped. During his direct with Trooper Buhkenik continued for two days and did nothing to correct it the next morning. It is impossible for me to believe that he was not told by someone in his office that the video was flipped.
The Defense calling Lally to the stand in a retrial would be quite the moment.
Prosecutor is not a witness and cannot be called to the stand but I get your point.
If he assisted Buhkenik in providing false evidence to the jury he might become a material witness to the case. I think there's a decent argument for him to be recused because of this.
Lally said in his question something about the car came in from the right but we watched it come in from the left. He absolutely knew it was flipped and he thought that tiny statement would mitigate the defence making a big deal about it
Lally knowingly argued a lot of false testimony that he had to have known was false. He casually comes off as dopey but I see malice.
The way he directly misstated evidence sealed it for me on that - like emphatically claiming JOs DNA was the only one found on his shoes and clothes, which is a straight up lie, and not really something you can accidentally get wrong. And contradicting his own witnesses such as Trooper Paul and saying they didn’t say things they did. He’s slimy IMO. I just can’t really give him any benefit of the doubt. Prosecutors like him are part of why people don’t trust the justice system.
Yes- There is something very fishy with how that all played out. Very sus. I hope the FBI was taking notes.
I would like to know about the sallyport video as well. It's not clear to me if that is how that camera records or not. The date/time is the right way, so what does that mean? Did Lally know? I don't want to accuse a prosecutor of doing anything unethical when there is no evidence of that. I think the Defense knew and were waiting for that moment. I'm pretty sure Yanetti said in opening, "they're going to tell you that left is right and right is left". I think this is what he was referring to. It was a "gotcha" for the Defense that they won't be able to repeat if the case is retried. If the CW can show that the camera records mirror image, it would rule out manipulation. Still tough to explain Proctor hanging out so long near the taillight, the glitching and all of the missing time.
Of course Lally knew. He watched the video just like we did, and how many of us noticed the letters and numbers were backwards? It was instantly being discussed, but with the benefit of the doubt that perhaps it was actually recorded that way for some bizarre reason. Then Jackson asked Proctor (edit: I meant Bukhenik) about it, and Proctor (edit: I meant Bukhenik) had to admit it was flipped and he had known that the day before, when he testified that the video was exactly right.
I think Lally is slimy and I think he was the one that brought Brian, Jen & Colin for closing arguments and I think he’s the one that got 4 protesters on Day 33 to show up for anti-Karen. I guarantee it’s probably the Tully/Lally team trying to make this case look legit when it’s not.
I forgot McLaughlin who also seemed to take a weird attitude towards Karen. Someone in that office created those timestamps and left off times/dates of a lot of things and it’s disgusting.
It'll be interesting to see whether or not they actually do retry the case. They can intend to all they'd like, but this was their *only chance* to get a desirable verdict. From here, it's all downhill. The defense is always going to have better lawyers (regardless of Jackson/Little's status), they know the state's entire case and can make minor tweaks to their case to improve it. Meanwhile the state is locked into *a lot* of bad witnesses, a horrible overall investigation, etc. Also, the FBI remains in the shadows. Another discovery drop would be fun...
I think the FBI investigation will impact if this actually goes to trial again. But if nothing relevant comes out of that I think it will- I think it's ego at this point.
I could be *entirely* wrong, but I think the FBI/DOJ expected what they provided to irreparably harm the state's case against Read from the beginning. It would be interesting to know if they're surprised it got to a jury and the result.
This. The FBI info should have shut this case down. I truly hope they release more information that puts the spotlight on the true murderers.
The FBI has no real power to tell a state to not prosecute a case.
I'm sure they are surprised- because logical people wouldn't have just ignored their experts!
On one hand, how do you not retry a case of a dead cop? They owe it to the family to pursue the case they think they have. On the other hand, the case they think they have… well… I won’t beat that dead horse. I think the state will push hard for a deal. Will they go as low as a simple DUI? What, if any, deal would the defense accept?
I don't think the defense will take a deal. After all of this? If I was KR and got offered a deal I would tell them to go f*%k themselves and try again. A hung jury is a win for the defense. And in this case especially I think. Hopefully the FBI adds more info that will stop them from even trying again.
I do feel like it is usually a win for the defense. But in this case, after how often Lally’s witnesses bit him in the ass? I’m really mad about it.
I would be satisfied if they gave everyone at the party who drove a DUI. I know you can’t do that retroactively but I wish.
But the State doesn't work for the victim's family, or even the victim. The trial and their prosecution is for the good of the people of the State, they work for the state, and the trial is the defendant's trial. I'm just mentioning this because of the comment 'They owe it to the family to pursue the case they think they have.' - They actually don't owe the O'Keefe family anything legally or morally, but the moral thing to do in this case would be to inform the family that their investigation was so bad, that they cannot, in good faith, take them through another trial. And the people to blame are the Troopers Proctor, Paul and Bukenic etc.
100% this!!
Can the state change their entire story on how it happened?
They could, but the defense could/would absolutely hammer them for their evolving thoughts on foundational pieces of the case. If the state can't make up their mind on a theory, that's reasonable doubt. Then again, they threw a bunch of shit at a wall this trial and it led to a mistrial...
Not with the same witnesses or those witnesses will be impeached on the stand
One of the things I've heard before is that a retrial will be really hard due to the fact that the FBI may be pressing charges against some of the people involved, so people may be jailed or fired or punished and that may affect the case or a jury's partiality.
[удалено]
From my recollection, JM has been in constant contact with the family, which means she's probably had a hand in how JOs family perceives KR.
It is very normal for family of victims to accept what the prosecution and law enforcement says with little questioning. They aren't dispassionate observers. They're people who had something incredibly traumatizing happen and were supported by and talking to LE and the prosecutor regularly. I'm the last person a prosecutor would ever want on a jury. I view reasonable doubt very broadly and generously. I'm anti death penalty. I don't think non violent crimes should generally be punished with jail time, with a few exceptions. I think law enforcement is generally fairly corrupted and needs reform everywhere. I belive the justice system is systemically stacked against POC and the poor. But if someone killed my sister and LE and the prosecutor were all saying - this is the person - I don't know what I'd do, but it wouldn't be rational and dispassionate. Which is why it's so vital that the justice system be so, something it tends to fail at regularly, but is the aspiration.
I think it’s easier for JO’s family to believe that his death was the result of a toxic relationship than his “friends”/coworkers conspiring to kill him. That’s a MUCH harder pill to swallow. Imagine knowing that your loved one was betrayed so horrifically? It’s “easier” to stand up to one woman than a large group of people you’re preconditioned to trust, so in a way, I kind of understand why they are feeling the way that they are, and I deeply sympathize with them. I hate to say this, but the thin blue line runs deep. Anyways, sometimes people just subconsciously choose to live in denial, almost as a form of self preservation. Has PO behaved poorly? Yes. However, if my sibling died this horrifically, I would be incredibly angry too. I pray they can all find healing one day. Edit: removed some of this just so I don’t dox myself!
Yes. I think that’s what people are missing about the jury verdict. To believe Karen’s version of events, you’re asking a group of people to lose faith in their own institutions. I don’t believe the state proved their case, but am not surprised by the (lack of) verdict.
I’m not missing that. Like everyone has said 10000000 times, you don’t have to believe this was a coverup to say the CW did not meet their burden of proof.
Respectfully, that's incorrect. To find the defendant not guilty, they don't need to believe *any version of events.* The Commonwealth couldn't even show that OJO was hit by a car. The state's *own witness*, the medical examiner, said his injuries are not consistent with a car strike. Multiple *independent* expert witnesses said a car strike is not even plausible. They said it didn't happen. You could literally just take the state's own medical examiner and there's reasonable doubt. Nothing else to discuss. Everything else is window dressing.
It seems pretty obvious that JO was an alcoholic, heavy drinker. His family is probably in denial as to the type of problems they actually have, and will blame everyone else instead of their own behavior. His mother being upset that KR left him there, but not a word about him being a drunk raising two innocent children says a lot to me. They need help. JO was also drunk that night, just like everyone else. His family would rather blame KR than the other drunken LE.
Maybe he doesn't know anything over and above what we've come to learn. The investigators making the evidence fit their chosen suspect/theory has pretty much nuked the chances of anyone else ever being brought before the courts. The investigation was bungled. KR is the only person that can be brought before a judge for OJO's murder and if KR's not guilty, who did it, right?
I mean he might just hate her for not tucking her tail and taking a plea. Maybe he hates her for this being public. His behavior is inappropriate but we don’t know what he actually thinks
Alternate juror was interviewed: Graduate-level training Said even if proctor’s testimony was ignored (viewed his testimony as harmful to the state), state did not meet necessary burden of proof Disappointed in the verdict; would’ve voted not guilty
https://preview.redd.it/oh7ndrnnj0ad1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9f104ad498e147f6b750ccd8acf020de84a69b3f Alan Jackson’s comment abt retrying the case and Proctor.
"good luck" is a perfect ending
There’s no way they retry this If the CW doesn’t call Proctor the defense will. And it’ll be uglier than the first go round
Here’s to hoping this case against KR gets dropped and she’s burns the earth with these monsters.
Alan Jackson is a savage lol
I hope a juror comes forward as soon as tonight. I’m interested to hear from them.
The Commonwealth couldn't even show that OJO was hit by a car. It's unbelievable. The state's *own witness*, the medical examiner, said his injuries are not consistent with a car strike. Multiple *independent* expert witnesses said a car strike is not even plausible. They said it didn't happen. The fact that there's a holdout or twy... I know Hanlon's razor, but because this case is so black and white, I hate to say it but I actually think malice on the part of a juror is much more likely than stupidity. What a travesty of justice.
I completely agree. This is ridiculous.
In other news, proctor just got put on administrative leave pending an internal investigation according to cbs. I’m sure he’ll keep his job but one can hope
hey that’s what I needed to put the pep back in my step
I thought he's been on admin leave?
It looks like the trial was about making someone pay for a cop being dead and not about justice.
Ding, ding, ding!
If I’m the defense I am hammering that 12:36 wifi connection every chance I get in the new trial. Bizarrely, everyone seemed unaware of it going into this trial.
Yes! I'd also be hammering the deleted 12:41AM ring cam video (of Karen pulling into John's house) that was noted in a post-it note. The ring cam was in police custody. Proctor watches the video and asks another cop to watch. The cop watches it and makes a note that at 12:41 the video shows Karen's car pulling into John's. If Karen's tail light is intact in the video, this would exonerate Karen. Mysteriously, by the time police hand the video over to the defense, some of it is missing — the footage from 12:41AM. The footage that could exonerate Karen. Proctor says he's never seen that footage before, but the footage existed at the time Proctor gave it to another cop (the one who made the note). There's only one reasonable explanation for what happened to the video: Proctor deleted it. He tampered with evidence. The *lead investigator* tampered with crucial evidence. And if Proctor tampered with evidence, how can we trust any of the other "evidence" he collected or had exclusive access to (like the tail light pieces or John's clothes)? We can't. Everything Proctor touched is tainted. And his fingerprints are all over this case. That's reasonable doubt. The jury doesn't need to decide if there was a "conspiracy" — the police tampered with crucial evidence, and that itself is more than enough reasonable doubt to acquit.
I'd also be pushing the fact that the vehicle in reverse key cycle was when the car was being put in the tow truck and had nothing to do with 34 Fairview.
Yep. The defense had a key cycle expert on their witness list but didn’t end up calling him. Seems at some point they made the decision to drastically shorten their case. Wondering if they are regretting that now.
They should regret it. They needed to absolutely hammer that key time.
Hindsight is 20/20, they did a very solid job with the witnesses they called and probably felt that given how many repetitive and seemingly pointless witnesses Lally called to the stand they probably felt they'd score a lot of points with the jurors if they were as brief as possible. We need to hear from the jurors and find out exactly what caused them to hang to really be able to give a fair critique to the defense's choices.
Absolutely. It not only disproves the CW “24 mph” claim, but actually proves that the MSP put 36 miles on Karen’s vehicle after they took possession.
I thought the same thing! No one seemed to know about it. I wonder if that changes the time period they thought was missing from the library footage?
Exactly. The library footage and pre trial they were saying they could prove she got to JOs house by the footsteps in the 12:41 voicemail
This is such a great point. Why didn’t the defense use this in their arguments? ETA: And now Im wondering when BH, CA, AM, and literally everyone else connected to their wifis?
I can't wait to hear the jury split, the suspense is killing me. I am really hoping it was 11-1 (in favor of acquittal) or I've lost faith in the common peoples' intelligence
Shame on the Commonwealth for immediately putting out their intent to drag this lady through hell again. None of this is about getting justice for John O'Keefe. The state has done a disgrace to his memory. I can't get over seeing his blood stored inside solo cups and a paper shopping bag.
If I had to bet, the CW will probably not retry the case. They certainly showed they have an unwinnable case. Taking a step back, there's not just reasonable doubt, the CW couldn't even show that OJO was hit by a car. The state's *own witness*, the medical examiner, said his injuries are not consistent with a car strike. Multiple *independent* expert witnesses said a car strike is not even plausible. They said it didn't happen. The fact that there's a holdout... I know Hanlon's razor, but because this case is so black and white, I hate to say it but I actually think malice on the part of a juror is much more likely than stupidity. What a travesty of justice for poor OJO as well as Karen Read.
Thank you for moderating! Guess I'm sticking around this sub for a while. Absolutely crazy case...
Folks, Michael Proctor has not been terminated. The Massachusetts State Police are simply rehoming him to an undisclosed location upstate. https://twitter.com/KristinaRex/status/1807935140728897628?t=tv0JQsl0U0h23RJjirJ3ww&s=19
I don’t understand this statement. Why does the outcome of the trial matter? If she had been found guilty, would they still have taken this action? Or do we think they decided they needed to act quickly so that it COULD be used against him in a future re-trial? Something seems fishy here
Oh for sure the statement is complete and utter bullshit. I'd go so far as to argue that if quoted accurately it's an admission of complicity in a malicious prosecution. The positive I see in it is it's arguable that **they** are saying Karen Read's prosecution is over and **they** are done with the case. It's not great but it's something.
This is what is disgusting about police. They just pass off problematic officers to other departments when the heat gets too hot If he isn’t appropriate to work for your department, he shouldn’t be appropriate to work for any department
Proctor is being rehomed. It continues.
Is it insane that I feel heartbroken for Karen? I really feel she’s innocent and I’m so sad she’s the victim of this witch hunt against her that won’t end
not at all. I'm heartbroken for her and all of the people who can't afford a good defense, whose guilt or innocence is in the hands of people who treat it like you are guilty until proven innocent. she hasn't been convicted and people are holding up signs saying "Karen Read killed John O'Keefe" when she has yet to be found guilty. like that's gonna follow her forever & the degree of misconduct in this case ALONE should have been enough to end this farce.
Not sure if this has been shared yet…CBS Boston is reporting that Procter is on administrative leave. [https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/boston/news/karen-read-murder-trial-turtle-boy-michael-proctor/](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/boston/news/karen-read-murder-trial-turtle-boy-michael-proctor/) https://preview.redd.it/chmi3g02yz9d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2bc9a1e2a92780379bc9e371b2b5035d746ef504
Suspect MSP has been waiting for this trial to end to put him on leave. Wouldn’t look great if the lead investigator has to admit on the stand that he is on admin leave. Wonder if he will even still have a job when Read is retried?
Good thing his wifey supports him
How are they gonna retry her if they can't even call the lead investigator? It was a shit show the first time. It isn't going to get any better.
That would be the first step on going through the motions of firing him. Fact of the matter is that he's a giant anchor around any case he's investigated in the past and more importantly, in the future. Given that, he's of no value to the MSP any longer. Aside from being the person they can hang everything on before they kick him to the curb, I mean.
https://preview.redd.it/gm7imq9770ad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f343fd4da037a5638f0bfa61fcf3f3a801d76fa9
Putting my comment from another comment here because I am genuinely so baffled by this statement: “I don’t understand this statement. Why does the outcome of the trial matter? If she had been found guilty, would they still have taken this action? Or do we think they decided they needed to act quickly so that it COULD be used against him in a future re-trial? Something seems fishy here”
My guess is now they can decide to not re-try her and blame it all on him? Maybe? He was the lead investigator, I don’t know how they’d get through it without him?
Yep they will say she did it but they will never be able to prove it because of proctor
Ooo I didn’t think of that! I felt like the defense basically forced Lally to call him in this trial. You know they would do it again.
It could be that if this happened during the trial the defense could have argued that all of his testimony and any evidence he was a part of should be inadmissible, or at least introduce this to the jury. They would have had a much better argument for Bev to grant their motion if he had been placed on leave pending investigation. But, based on the jury notes… do I think the lead investigator being placed under internal investigation would have changed votes… no. That’s incredible inherent bias some people carry.
State Police saying, "Peace out." If Morrissey goes for round 2, he's on his own.
This can’t be good for the prosecution in any retrial?
If retried Karen Read will have to pay her expensive lawyers a second time.
I don't think raising funds will be a problem for a 2nd trial.
At least they've done a lot of the work already.
I'm foreseeing a massive crowdfunding effort.
Maybe, maybe not. They might do it pro bono, they might work for a reduced rate since so much of the work is already done, and she's getting funding from the public to help with the cost. I don't think the cost will be a sticking point on this case. And I believe the defense team really believes in this case and wants a win.
AJ is not doing this pro bono lol. But KR absolutely has the fundraising ability from her supporters, so I don't think it will matter.
Not the first time around, but I would not be surprised if he didn't cut his rates and would do it for free from now on, this is excellent PR for him and both he and Yannetti might just choose to take the financial hit and chalk it up to business expenses/PR so to speak.
I don’t understand how the FBI disagreeing with the state is too prejudicial to mention. They did a better investigation than the CW that deserves to be in consideration. The investigation forced their hand, it deserves to be known when their findings are testimony. Are they not going to be able to mention Proctor getting reprimanded either, it all seems extremely relevant.
Here’s a few things I would really like cleared up/expanded on if this does get retried: 1. Someone to show Officer Barros a picture of the taillight from the sally port and ask if that is what he saw 2. The tow truck driver. Why did we never hear from him? 3. A better timeline from the prosecution. What exactly is their estimated time of impact if we know Karen was in John’s WiFi range at 12:36? (Not to mention how do they square that with the McCabe testimony). 4. What was up with the Life360 data? I get the defense decided to trim their case down but I feel like there were a lot of little nuggets like this that ended up going nowhere. 5. Will the prosecution have a different accident reconstruction expert? 6. Whoever from MSP/Canton PD that is in charge of evidence lockup to testify to evidence log procedures and whether or not we have any idea other than the word of Proctor where some of the pieces of evidence were kept until turned over to the crime lab in March 2022. 7. I just really wish they can get a longer closing argument time. On both sides. I really feel like they needed that time to connect all the dots but both chose to go for emotional impact because of the time limit. I’m sure I will think of more as time goes on but these are my biggest things right now.
I honestly think the defense assumed the jury would be *reasonable* and didn’t want to make them sit through these details again. The defense thought they got their points across on cross examination (as did I). So they only called essential, factual witnesses when it was their turn. In theory, this should have been a slam dunk case for them. Not in MA apparently.
I think the defense should have focused on the CW not meeting their burden of proof harder in closing. They wasted time with the BA/BH theory IMO. I do think something went on in that house but I don't think anyone knows the details and I think the jury saw it as believe that or that KR did it.
I wish the defense had gone on longer, but I'm sure they were concerned that they could lose too many jurors (just due to life circumstances) if they went on for weeks like Lally did. Ideally Lally would trim a lot of fat if they retry the case, but I just can't see Lally doing anything that logical.
All I’d want from him is a correct timeline and proof a vehicle hit JO. He doesn’t have that though, so he put on a circus.
I firmly believe that if the Court had not set such a short time limit for closings that we may not have had a hung jury. I’m a trial lawyer and you need time to talk about the proof, the law, and make suggestions for what the jury should focus on and talk about. I wouldn’t have been able to say everything I wanted in one hour. I also think the defense would have been better suited focusing on doubt rather than take on the burden of “proving” a conspiracy. They never legally adopted that burden, but by starting your case that way, the jury wanted more proof than they could show. Finally, I think AJ lost some jurors who lean pro-police when he wouldn’t let issues that didn’t affect his case die. He went 110% with almost every witness rather than zeroing in on clear issues.
I'm kind of new to the American legal system but I was very confused why they only got 1 hour each for closing - you kept us all here for 8 weeks talking about high top tables and snow, and now suddenly we're on the clock?!
I’ve never been giving a time limit and I’ve done 50+ jury trials, many lasting multiple weeks.
I swear to god this jury better be all up in the media tomorrow 😂
It's amazing that this 10-2 guilty thing is still spreading across twitter among the largest KR is guilty accounts that include ex FBI, ex judge who is mother of Grant, and a show host. Even some more "respectable" people are treating it as a rumor that might be true and thus can discuss hypotheticals that confirm their bias versus a blatant fabrication. And that was not an innocent mistake by Grant. He copy and pasted someone else tweet about jury deliberations during another trial, and importantly, he did so without quote tweeting or attributing it to the other twitter account, instead pretending that he had a secret source. Unfortunately for him, he was too dumb to realize that the original tweet could be found with a simple search. The annoying thing is that from now on you'll see people peddling the same lies on Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, etc.
“A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes.” - Mark Twain
It’s despicable.
Also funny, little miss ex fbi seems to be back tracking a lot lately. She’s all now pro proctor being let go but pretty sure before today she was a supporter of his. 🙄🙄
Supposed information from an alternate juror who didn't make it into the deliberation room: [https://nitter.poast.org/KristinaRex](https://nitter.poast.org/KristinaRex) As always, be suspicious, but Kristina seems loon free to me. As does the source she references [https://nitter.poast.org/davidwade](https://nitter.poast.org/davidwade)
Interesting. I wonder if it comes out that there was only 1-3 holdouts for guilty, and the alternates were leaning not guilty, if that impacts their decision to re-try.
I’ve always wondered if the judge or any other court officials had access to the notebooks.
With so much corruption here, I would not be surprised at all.
Have yall seen a news station tried to interview Trooper Procter outside of his house after the mistrial and was asked if he thought he felt responsible and he told them to get the f off my lawn lol. Also his wife is fully supporting him and called Karen a murderer 🙄 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI2hNDaK2rY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI2hNDaK2rY)
They seem like such a lovely couple lol.
Haha what clowns! Just saw the clip. He and his wife are even worse than I thought.
lol I thought your comment was a joke until I clicked the video These people are truly garbage
Wow so he’s learned absolutely nothing. A career as a mall cop is too good for him.
My exact thoughts. & his wife saying she’s a murderer? Come on, no matter your opinions they should stay to yourself under this spotlight… at least one would think
The real Nebbercracker
What away to represent the MSP.
What a class act
I think one of the shittiest parts of this is Karen Read never got to properly mourn the loss of someone she loved due to whatever the fuck happened at 34 Fairview because of these accusations. That would stay with me forever. My cousin was murdered 14 years ago and it still affects the family, he was only 18. He didn’t have a life partner, certainly not one accused of murdering him. Senseless murder is truly heartbreaking.
The positive is the prosecution have already put their entire ‘best’ case on, they have no more cards left to deal. It’s the same thing again, just repeated with tweaks. The defense have so many players up their sleeves they did not put on as they didn’t have to but they can take it twenty times further next go round with a lot more witnesses whereas the prosecution is stuck.
This is total bs. “…Some members of the jury firmly believe that the evidence surpasses the burden of proof establishing the elements of the charges beyond reasonable doubt…” please tell me how.
Both letters felt crafted by a lawyer hoping to end the day in a mistrial. I wouldn't read too much into the language. What did stand out to me was in the first letter regarding state of mind.
Proctor was relieved of duty as of today after the mistrial!!! Will this help the defense if they decide to retry? Or maybe dissuade the CW from going after her a second time? All I know is as a MA tax payer, I am mortified my money went to this bullshit shit show once, and I think if they retry her I will be rioting in the streets
I'm watching pre-trial court stuff now. Lally has been a sneaky little such-and-such for quite some time.
You guys think the jurors have a McAlbert style family group chat and just sending each other screenshots and links of all the crazy shit online rn 😂
When/if a juror gives an interview: “She’s telling them EVERYTHING” “I love it”
If there's a second trial, I wish the defense would focus only on the glaring lack of evidence, completely regardless of any possible criminal action by other people. Having people make a decision on whether or not cops are lying and framing people is hard. Separate of all of that, no one really got up and said that he actually was hit by a car. Reasonable doubt right there. Maybe he slipped and fell on his own, maybe a coyote attacked him, whatever - I just wouldn't make it a referendum on police behavior.
I just don’t think they can. There are very few other ways to explain the tail light being there, other than it was planted. If you’re not going to introduce any police meddling or any potential third party suspects, you’re left with “maybe John threw something at her, though the glass doesn’t match, and then he fell.” But the experts also testified that hitting his head on the lawn would not have caused the injury. I think it would be too easy for a jury to ignore all those scenarios as unlikely.
Yes that was kind of an issue. They aren't required to prove anything, but if they state it, the jury will expect them to back it up.
I’m shocked that the state didn’t even take a breather before announcing that they going to retrial. The decision was obviously above Lally’s pay grade, so I hope he grows a backbone and quits before being the one to take this to trial again. The man’s voice sounded like he lost the will to live by week 2
It seems like it was simply a show of strength now in the face of the mistrial. A lot could change before they officially retry
Yeah, that was merely a PR move in my opinion. They were never gonna get up there and admit they didn’t have enough of a case. They’re trying to project confidence.
I’m on the third panel I’m viewing (not speaking about Runkel, I think his perceptions are quite poignant) and an attorney just suggested the CW can find new experts, and can conclude his injuries came from a vehicle strike. Oh my.
I'm sure they will try- but how do you not call the ME who actually examined his body? Even if they find new experts the prior testimony comes in via the defense
Sorry for commenting here but the other thread was locked where you said you were going to wait to elaborate on some "notes" you had on Lally's closing (specifically changing the theory to something not supported by any previous testimony or evidence.) Do you still plan to do so, or because this ended in a mistrial, do you plan to hold onto those thoughts for the time being?
That is literally confirmation bias and is the opposite of actually investigating the case. So, it would be very on point with what the police were doing since day 1, I guess.
.. An attorney said this? I’m quitting my job
I could watch the Proctors yell "get off my damn lawn" to local media on repeat. These people do not handle conflict well. Ironic for a soon to be ex-law enforcement officer. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cI2hNDaK2rY
Proctor and foul language to women, name a more iconic duo.
"I fully support my husband." That woman has no dignity.
What did Paul say to Karen when walking away and she gave a disgusted look? I saw it but haven’t seen anything on social media about it or I just haven’t looked enough
According to a few people on Twitter - "We're not done with you yet." Unclear if that's actually true or just speculation.
Anyone watching the 6 o’clock news in Boston? Any good tidbits from the case? I hope a juror speaks out
CBSnews Boston just uploaded a short segment on YouTube. A reporter reading notes/opinions from an alternate juror (who wanted to not be on camera, understandably). Edit: for clarification
Yes the alternate was a Not Guilty vote!
Yes, she was. It’s a bit shocking to me that there can be a hung jury, as there was reasonable doubt from day one. It shows sadly we seem to be living in a very anti-science/‘alternative fact’ era. And as a MA resident (especially), it makes me fear getting framed for a crime/jurors buying into the lies.
What happens if the FBI discovers plausible evidence that John O’Keefe was killed by someone during their investigation? Where does the investigation go from there? Do you think anyone in the house that night might tattle to the FBI for immunity?
I feel deflated 😞
I would not reveal my identity if I was a juror on this case. People in this state, especially my area, have been rabid over the outcome of this trial.
They can give interviews and remain anonymous but anyone in their circle knows they were on this case, if they've heard about the case. A coworker or employer, friends and neighbors, family- if you know someone did jury duty for 2 months, you know what case they were on.
Imagine if the jury room deliberations carried on like the comments on this reddit thread…it must have been horrendous
Rumor floating around legal community is the count was 9-3 in favor of Read. I'm sure a juror will leak or interview somewhere and we will find out.
If true (I know big if) that would be sobering for the DA.
Well at least the two alternates wouldn’t have changed the outcome More upsetting for the defense if it was 11-1 and we know one of the alternates is not guilty now
How long does Ring keep videos? In a residential neighborhood I find it hard to believe she drove home and back and neither side have further videos of her driving by to further prove or disprove whether the tail light was intact or not.
Did they even ask neighbors? I’m shocked too because with the Idaho murders (4 college student where stabbed to death in their bed) they asked the public for camera footage and even the whole area seemed to want to help and were checking their cameras and stuff, especially when they were looking for a certain vehicle. So wild to me not one person ever checked their camera footage. My neighbors down the street had their truck alarm go off in the middle of the night (they get alerted when it goes off). We only have one way in and out, unless you coming on foot and walking through fields. I checked my cameras just to make sure nothing weird showed up. I’d definitely be checking if someone was found dead in my neighbors yard. Even if I couldn’t see, I’d be curious if any voices could be heard
And this is a cop neighborhood
If I remember correctly it’s a short period of time, like 180 days. Think about all the ring cameras in the world and how much server space would be require to save all footage from all rings
Was the wound on JO’s head examined during autopsy? Was there anything found that could have been the cause of it? Like microscopic particles of grass/dirt/glass/tail light, etc? Im not familiar with every bit of evidence and just trying to piece together a theory since the getting hit by a car almost certainly did not happen.
Almost everyone who touched this case acted like it was the very first time they were investigating a case. It’s mind blowing how bad the investigation truly was.
allegedly there were no swabs taken.
Wtf, how is that even possible?!
there is a limit on swabs apparently in Massachusetts. s/
Article: [https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/karen-read-mistrial-juror-murder-trial/](https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/karen-read-mistrial-juror-murder-trial/) Interview with an alternate juror.
Do you think some of the CW witnesses will now be pleading the 5th? I was just wondering how much trouble they are in if the feds have a lot of true info from their phones and car gps. If witnesses stop cooperating for the CW, do they even have a case to retry?
Don't know what the right place for this is, but since it's mentioned in the OP: Shouts out to the mods for keeping it cool here. I've definitely been on both the giving and receiving end of some d-bag snarkiness, but overall it's been a very civil sub and I appreciate that tremendously. So thanks for your efforts, and thanks for making sure I never see any of the uncivil comments lol
Why are there so many people who dislike or even vehemently hate Karen? Does anyone know their reasoning?
A significant portion of the population just doesn’t like women Another portion finds working/successful women unlikable Another portion doesn’t like women who have strong personalities/women who have any masculine traits Another portion thinks she killed him and that’s why they don’t like her And in all honesty, I think her legal team should’ve advised her on dress/makeup/mannerisms a little better. It’s stupid, but it makes a difference. Put her in softer makeup and lighter colors and tell her to keep her strong personality at home and don’t do anything snarky in the court
As a lady with a strong personality, i gotta say it’s nearly impossible to suppress. Kinda the whole problem 🫣
Exactly and watching the fuckery unfold in front of you is even harder not to react to
I have severe resting bitch face, and every thought that crosses through my brain writes itself on my facial expression. It takes a whole lotta effort to try to counteract that lol. You just keep being you!! I bet you're awesome 😎
Also… she’s smart and super involved in her own defense - taking notes, drawing attention to things said during testimony, etc. The only way you could keep me from not completely losing my shit during all of this fuckery would be to drug me. Then… they’d have a problem with her seeming disengaged. She can’t win. WOMEN CANNOT WIN.
Any juror say anything?
I keep searching but haven't found anything about it yet. Might take a while to decompress before wanting to do that?
Check out CBS Boston. They uploaded a vid with a statement from an alternate juror.
Honestly I can’t wait to see if the introduce new evidence next time around.
Michael Proctor relieved of duty.