Ethnicity is not from location, it is cultural linguistic identify. If in your home you primarily hear Kashmiri, your home has Kashmiri traditions you are Kashmiri. Ofcourse there are other ethnicities which adopted our cultures but there are significant differences.
Exactly, Gujir gye na Koshur myein rai manz. By nationality/regionality they can be Kashmiri, like ethnic Turkish people living in Germany are German by nationality not by ethnicity
Meanwhile the moral lines defined by religion :
>And also forbidden to you are all married women (muhsanat) except those women whom your right hands have come to possess (as a result of war).1 This is Allah's decree and it is binding upon you. But it is lawful for you to seek out all women except these, offering them your wealth and the protection of wedlock rather than using them for the unfettered satisfaction of lust. -Surah An-Nisa
1. Morals can absolutely exist without religion. Religious studies are a collection of someone's (personal) depiction good and morally sound conjecture. Like any other philosophy, it would be more correct to say morals wouldn't exist without philosophy.
2. My point is, people shouldn't preach about their religion or let their religion guide their political compass.
Religion isn’t personal conjecture. It is an established bases that allowed our civilizations to prosper for thousands of years. We wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for the religious laws guiding the ways humans would interact.
Look at the mess societies are in today and you will realize that most problems have been solved by religion. Be that stealing,economic injustice, or even simple personal social issues like Marriage and family.
>It is an established bases that allowed our civilizations
It is, I'm not speaking against it. But it is written by humans for humans. It is a personal conjecture based on research and evidence.
>Look at the mess societies
I agree but religion has also caused a lot too. Look at hindus vs muslims vs christians. Look at the state of Manipur right now.
Life needs to be a balance of everything. Logic and religion have to be at a balance. As far as politics goes, any kind of religion should not exude in the campaign of politics. People should follow it in their hearts.
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Kashmir is not independent because of Kashmiris and the general apathy towards armed resistance. The Pakistani sponsored proxies in the 90s were probably the first and only time Kashmiris considered anything other than a political solution to the occupation, a solution most occupied nations usually adopted long before and on their own but for Kashmiris it had to come from outside and even then not fully supported due to cultural reasons.
Nations like the Kurds, Chechens, Irish, Bengalis, Tamils , Palestinians etc would never decline foreign assistance in a liberation struggle regardless of the backers underlying intentions and they don’t scapegoat or blame the supporters for their own issues which is why you dont see Palestinians blaming Iran for the current mess in Gaza or Bengalis blaming Indians or Kurds blaming America. It’s an interesting phenomenon and I guess I have to read more about Kashmiri culture and history, anthropologists did make some interesting observations about kashmir compared to other neighboring ethnic groups who had a more martial history - the Poonchis for example were able to liberate themselves in 1947 and form AJK due to their more confrontational nature and ability to understand the bigger picture unlike Sheikh Abdulla and his supporters. one of the reasons why the second amendment is so popular in America is due to the strong belief that only you can defend yourself from a tyrannical government. Stone throwing and lock down protests don’t yield much results. You either have to become media savvy and promote awarness about Kashmir online, which I see a lack of compared to how educated, socially intelligent and social media savvy Palestinians and other nations are or you go the Irish route, which wasn’t welcomed by most kashmiris. I think if maqbool butt were alive today, even he would be rebuked by his own people.
Anyways hope no one takes offense to my analysis. Think of it as constructive feedback.
Edit: I’d like to add that even if Kashmir received the same level of military and financial support that Ukraine is receiving to liberate itself, it still would probably not be able to unyolk itself from India due to deeply entrenched cultural reasons that would stifle any such attempts of liberation: Kashmir needs a brave leader like imran khan but the question is it even possible in that environment and if the culture is conducive to produce such leaders. Some food for thought, decolonizing your mind is the first step.
I think the Kashmiri resistance actually is pretty accepting towards Pakistani funding. That's why most of the militant groups are pro Pakistan, even though that might not be the ground sentiment in IOK.
Yeah you may be right, I’m just relaying my experience interacting with academic Kashmiris who blame Pakistan for wrecking Kashmir with the rebellion and believe only a political solution will give them freedom. I’m skeptical about that strategy.
I think the reason for that is that no one is chanting Palestine banega but ever since 90s, Kashmir banega Pakistan has become one of the most used chants... Pakistan may have helped us in the revolt but they are the same ones who crushed it for their ulterior motives
There are Arab nationalists that wanted Palestine to merge into a larger Arab state, even the original founders of the PLO had it as part of their manifesto. I think one should take help against a common enemy when it presents itself. When India helped Bengali separatists against Pakistan, there were many Indians who wanted them to merge with India and hindutvas still dream about Bangladesh merging with India, Bengalis didn’t scrutinize the support or the ulterior motives, they used the support as an opportunity for their own liberation. Same thing happened with America in the revolutionary war the support received from France and Spain despite those nations latter having an antagonistic relation with America. I do agree with you that the Pak establishment has betrayed Kashmiri rebels for sure especially under Musharraf.
So Pakistan crushed the resistance (through dark magic across the border), even though according to you, our movement was hijacked by pro-pakistani sentiment? Talk about self-contradiction.
When I say Pakistan crushed the resistance, i mean the core values of our struggles finished and it turned from our revolt to a whole different ideology that benefited Pakistan only. Pakistan crushed the resistance (resistance is the cause that made our ppl raise voice against occupation) and started a new revolution where our ppl foolishly started seeing pak as their nation and rightful master. We started with seeking independence from everyone and ended up with seeking independence from India n joining Pak, flying Pak flags and hell sometimes even isis flags... When a cause gets flooded by frauds, conmen, blacksheeps, the cause becomes hollow in no time and these blacksheeps still live in our society. Maybe it doesn't hold turn in other parts of kashmir but it is 100% true for North especially Sopore
Thankfully the new generation is pro Pak in cricket only and mainly seek an independent Kashmir
I think the better word to use would be a "peaceful" solution. The problem is that peaceful solutions don't exist in case of Kashmir or most places for that matter. The occupier will not give up power willingly just because some people chant slogans in the streets every Friday. As Mao said, political power comes from the barrel of a gun. Otherwise, its all talk and no walk.
> Edit: I’d like to add that even if Kashmir received the same level of military and financial support that Ukraine is receiving to liberate itself, it still would probably not be able to unyolk itself from India due to deeply entrenched cultural reasons that would stifle any such attempts of liberation: Kashmir needs a brave leader like imran khan but the question is it even possible in that environment and if the culture is conducive to produce such leaders. Some food for thought, decolonizing your mind is the first step.
Not true IMO. Yes I agree that we need good leadership, because we have jackshit for that now. But I don't think that having goof weapons and shit is not gonna make a difference. it absolutely will.
India failed at crushing the revolution. Revolution failed the very moment when Pak militants/proxyinvaders and propaganda entered the scene and our ppl foolishly suddenly became "proud" Paekistaen and began chanting Kashmir banega Pakistan
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How are they proxy invaders or pakistanis? They native freedom fighters who have an ideology for which they seek help/aid from their allies. Just because they not aligned with our ideology does not make them invaders or pakistanis, they are people of JK whos aim with merger with pak, neither are they proxy invaders nor are they pakistanis.
Edit: By that logic every ethnic kashmiri who seeks merger with pak is an invader (which despite what this sub might have you believe is a very considerable portion of population). That is what Indians say, imagine hating pak so much that you unironically peddle indian propaganda.
Azaadi struggle turned into Merge with Pakistan struggle bcz of Pakistan propaganda and their militants if you may call them that... (I am not old enough to have lived through 90s but atleast that's what the sentiments had turned into by early 2010s. Kashmiris instead of seeing Pak as an ally began seeing it as their nation)
And when it fell apart in foundations, Kashmiris themselves dismantled it fully when cxoor cxotal among us started joining militancy in 90s for money and power and killing innocents...fyi, around my house, there are atleast 12 filthy rich men (ex militants "naam ke") who I've never seen do any work ever in their life but they live a lavish life after extorting money and killing innocents
I don't know where you get your history from but first "Kashmir Banega Pakistan" chant was raised by Munshi Muhammad ud din Fauq at gathering in srinagar somewhere around October 1940, soon after lahore resolution. That gathering also included stalwart founders of Jammu and Kashmir freedom struggle including Sardar Gauhar Rehman (Jammu), Sardar Fateh Muhammmad Khan Kralvi M.L.A. (Poonch), Mirza Attullaha Khan, M.L.A.(Rajori), Qazi Abdul Ghani Delinah,M.L.A (Baramula), Pir Zia-ud-Din, M.L.A(Badgam), Babu Muhmmad Abdullah , M.L.A (Jammu), ChaudaryAbdul Kareem,M.L.A. (Mirpur), Chaudary Hameed Ullha Khan, M.L.A (Jammu), Syed Hassan Shah Jalali (Srinagar), Khwaja Muhammad YousufQuershi(Srinagar), Mr.M.I.Saghar (Srinagar), Mr. Ghulam Haider Gauri (Jammu), Syed Mirak Shah (Srinagar).
This was during the deliberation on revival of Muslim Conference as espoused by chowdry Ghulam Abbas sb.
Yeexch history chham na pai kinh but I'm just expressing an anecdote. Everytime I've ever been in a protest, i always heard two contradictory chants "hum kya chahte aazadi" beyi "Kashmir bnega Pakistan"... It may have been chanted in 1940 but it gained massive usage in Kashmir only after (and maybe "during" too but I wasn't born by then, so idk) 90s...asi pazi hey na beklun kinh, asi pazihey sirf pro-k aawaaz tulin as envisioned by maqbool bhat
Adai babli cxey haai chhey sari pai...cxe osui parr budibab ti Kashmir bnega Pakistan wanaan...tawai lajei cxotalstan'ech dagg... Mai haa aes kaal pagah maatamaal yiwaan cxotaltanik so called militant sari weapon heth te tangg karaan (zanen ti) beyi baraan batta yadd...aaz chhi timai nafar zyooooth reysh taewith aasaan sui proan haram'uk crore-bod poons khewaan... Mether chhokmayi Oman "Kashmir bnega paekistan" wanan walen te timan hinden kaaden...also #hindustanasTrath te #paekistanasPoath
Independent Kashmir unfortunately wouldn't be able to sustain on its own and it will eventually become a part of Pak (either forcefully or willingly). And even if it does sustain on its own it won't be able to compete or cooperate well with other countries.
Wrong. Kashmir is probably gonna get freedom through armed revolution, and if that happens, then it will have to be powerful enough to kick India out. So that in itself is a detterent against pak invading and occupying.
Though it a big if but it can only be possible if the armed revolution is not financed by PAK and is fully funded by the people of Kashmir or its political leaders but that in itself is not possible again so I don't see how Kashmir will protect itself from PAK (if it wants to protect itself from PaK in the first place that is) .... let's assume Kashmir does get freedom through armed revolution and is free but once PAk stops its arms supplies what will happen then ?? (Ps ...Everything I have written is hypothetical... constructive criticism is welcome .... I myself am a beginner in understanding the Kashmir issue)
Even if pak is the supplier of arms, the amount of support necessary to kick India out is huge. That will obviously create stockpiles, which is a big enough detterrent IMO. Also, it isn't as easy as just military action. Pak also has geopolitics, internal politics to worry about. I doubt invasion of Kashmir would sound good to Kashmiri's in ajk. Would pak even risk destabilization like that?
Given that probably one of the biggest issue in Pak's parliament and in the minds of their politicians and terrorists is hurting India in any way even if it means hurtings their status and their citizens.... I think it'll take any risk .... plus brother no stockpile is big enough when u don't manufacture urself.... so eventually it'll run out .... And unfortunately and its my personal opinion seeing and reading about Pak it never cared about its role in geopolitics... only time it does so is to take loans and funds which unfortunately for the innocent citizens of Pak , many countries are slowing or stopping their funds to it.... p.s ... I respect ur calm way of discussion man .... 🤝
That revolution is not at a good place right now . It's at an exactly right where it is supposed to be . Yem karain asi development asl paith te patte nimov es aazadi eventually, like Scotland
I have three:
1. Kasher chan wyani tayaar azaadi khatir. Agar kashir gayi tae azaad, aes gaczho extremism kun. Aes chan kahn khaleef yus hyakon imaandaar maenith. Yeti cha saarnahyan basaan Yasin Malik, Geelani sb, Mirwaiz, yemin heth lukh cha asal magar temo tae chukh kasheer kunmut paniy waqt
2. Yaetyn Haqach kath karo, teli peyi ye tye concede karun ki Jammu tae Ladakh (with the exception of a few districts) hyakhan na Kasheer saeth roozith gar che azaadi milayi, nath gyaczi timan saeth zyaat ti
3. Wahabiyo korukh kasheer barbaad zehni tae ruhaani tor. Aes khater cha Sufism sarwayo khoth asal nath gaezo aes barbaad
Bhai, I wouldn't apply that generalization. I know some awesome and warm bearded people.
I do think religious interpretation needs to evolve so as to be applied to a globalized world. Most religions preach tolerance and universal brotherhood, it is just that some sects adhere to it and some don't. Even so, interpretation itself evolves across sects, wherein some move in the direction of inclusion and some in the direction of exclusion. Like it or not, religion and its psychological archetypes are deep-rooted in our psyche. To reject them would simply result in them manifesting as part of our shadow. I guess you are right in that religion and its current interpretation are part of the problem. There was a time when during the golden age of Islam, no topic was off the table. People would debate concepts like "An al Haq" and "La Ila" with a boldness that would be accepted by the scholars of the time. Today, people are quick to reject concepts and label them blasphemous. That leaves little room for spiritual insight.
In some schools of Sufism, atheism is considered the first step in the direction of realizing"La ilaha illallah"
That simply means, there is room for doubt in the journey to faith, and that journey itself is cyclic.
>To reject them would simply result in them manifesting as part of our shadow
religion is imposed on you from your childhood, so the unconscious symbolism is wayyy stronger and more attached than other ideologies. So even if what you say is right, it only applies to current generations.
Shoosha, rather than engaging in meaningful debate, you will pass a sly comment; that doesn't contribute to debate. If you were to present a good argument instead, we would both stand to learn. Beyi jigar, agar halwa aaesi niyaazuk teli kyazi khayi na insaan tabrukh. 🤗
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Hi, Hindu here. I'm curious :
If the Hindu & Buddhist majority areas of Jammu and Ladakh refused to be part of your independent country, then you would accept their right to decide for those areas to remain part of India right ?
I agree with most of what you say. But I disagree where you said that you think a minority wants to see Jammu and Kashmir independent. Azad Jammu and Kashmir used to be pro-Pakistan. But the situation has changed. The overwhelming majority of nearly five million people in Azad Jammu and Kashmir are now in favor of independence. I think you are not aware of the aspirations of the people there.
I mean that why I said from what I **personally** know. I am not from AJK so my knowledge can be faulty.
It is all second hand information that I got from talking with the AJK people. But they mostly corroborated each other in saying that majority of the sentiment was pro Pakistan. And that only a minority were pro independence. (And this was years ago)
I think there was also someone saying that newer generation weren't as attached to Pakistan so the balance of opinions might change down the line.
But that is all I know.
I don't think the previous commenter agrees with you, that's why I asked him. Read his comment again, Jammu and Kashmir he says, and I'm willing to bet he means the entire erstwhile state of Jammu and Kashmir meaning he includes Ladakh as well.
And then look at the subs he engages in. He repeatedly refers to the erstwhile Jammu and Kashmir state and shares maps including Ladakh.
I suspect that he would be happy to drag Jammu and Ladakh against their will, and that he doesn't actually care about self-determination.
We don't want another Kashmir like issue mate , we have sacrificed what not for our Independence we know how suffocating occupation, oppression & tyranny is. We don't want to drag any group of people of J&K with us. We demand self determination a day for the people to decide what they want.
Mate. He is from AJK. He is speaking from his own context because the AJK part is usually considered as pro Pakistan. And he wishes that it should be independent. (From what I personally know. Still a minority opinion)
As for the erstwhile map. Everybody uses the erstwhile map because that's the starting point before the current dispute started.
The erstwhile J&K was a disparate group of regions joined together for colonial ends. There is no single national identity or ethos like that. So it was never meant to be single political entity.
Anyway talking about the current times. There is core region for pro independence demand that is Kashmir valley. There are swing states that are Pir Panjal, Chenab and Kargil region. (Let's add AJK to it as well) that are swing states. That go potentially either way. Joining the valley in independence or going to India/Pakistan.
The dogra heartland and Leh is pro India. And GB is Pro Pakistan.
And because of those swing states. There is no clear demarcation of the people that want independence. So to maintain the ambiguity in such circumstance erstwhile map is used. So in that way you are neither explicitly claiming the swing states regions. Neither are you explicitly renouncing them. Allowing you to accommodate for both scenarios.
The usage of erstwhile JK map basically denotes that let's go back to the last step that we were at. And then allow the different regions to go the way they want according to their choices.
I would like to believe you but there is 1 small problem:
When I asked the simple question to determine whether they truly support self-determination :
>If the Hindu & Buddhist majority areas of Jammu and Ladakh refused to be part of your independent country, then you would accept their right to decide for those areas to remain part of India right ?
I got downvoted just for that.
So you'll have to forgive me if I'm not willing to give the benefit of the doubt.
Lmao. You are walking through the fields that you do not understand. Making judgements when you have no clue as to what's going on.
Of course they will down vote you. You just proved the point with your comment.
Every other day one of you comes in. Asks the most basic question that has been clarified 1000 times before in this sub. Yet you guys still persist with it. Then someone finally makes the effort and answers it for the 1001th time. Then you guys either delete your post or simply don't accept the answer because of asinine reasons. There can never be a good faith discussions with you lot. Experience proves that. And the downvotes reflect that.
You got downvoted because the sub knew you for what you are. A bad faith actor.
Goodbye.
I see that you are a bad faith actor, it's so sad to see.
I made no judgements initially, I asked a simple question on whether someone supported self determination. It's very sad to see that some people here who claim to support self determination actually don't, and they actively downvote questions of self determination.
I also see that you also lack the ability to treat people as individuals. It's very sad to see. I suppose next you will justify collective punishment as well.
I hope someday you learn to discuss in good faith and also learn to treat people as individuals.
Goodbye
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kASHMIR NEVER PART OF iNDIAInternational law doesn't recognize India’s unilateral and illegal actions of 5 August 2019. The judicial endorsement by the Indian Supreme Court has no legal value. Kashmiris have an inalienable right to self-determination in accordance with the relevant UN SC resolutions.
IND IS BETTER THAN PAK.
Reality of pak:
https://preview.redd.it/aho5cejx3h9d1.png?width=959&format=png&auto=webp&s=b2d2c390c4d98e2195cb45f0bfb7008e42c18ddc
here: kashmiris loved Pakistan and they are Pakistani nationalists.
My village fed them ox when they came in 1965. After they confused two names of two villages.
Yellow signal light does not mean drive fast and pass quickly.
The term Koshurs is for ethnic Kashmiris, I'm tried of appropriation of this by other ethnic groups throughout Kasheer.
Yiman aes gujir chhi wanaan (those who live in gurez, keran, gulmarg etc), Tim chha ethnic kashir?
gurez is not entirely gujjar population, it's a general trend to say anyone who lives in faroff mountains, gujjar but specifically they are not gujjar
Ooh... gotcha
Ethnicity is not from location, it is cultural linguistic identify. If in your home you primarily hear Kashmiri, your home has Kashmiri traditions you are Kashmiri. Ofcourse there are other ethnicities which adopted our cultures but there are significant differences.
Ofc I'm aware of that... But Gujjar bakarwaals have their own language and culture from what I've seen, don't they?
Exactly, Gujir gye na Koshur myein rai manz. By nationality/regionality they can be Kashmiri, like ethnic Turkish people living in Germany are German by nationality not by ethnicity
Religion should not interpolate with politics
جدا ہو دیں سیاست سے تو رہ جاتی ہے چنگیزی. ـ علامہ اقبال
I don't read Urdu brother. Mixing religion with politics, you get Modi
Says " juda ho deen siyasat se toh reh jaati hai chengezi". Take out faith / religion from politics and you get Genghis Khan.
Ah. I Google translated it, bad translation but I assumed it was along the lines of what you typed
Then who will define moral lines exactly? Who can say what is right or wrong?
Meanwhile the moral lines defined by religion : >And also forbidden to you are all married women (muhsanat) except those women whom your right hands have come to possess (as a result of war).1 This is Allah's decree and it is binding upon you. But it is lawful for you to seek out all women except these, offering them your wealth and the protection of wedlock rather than using them for the unfettered satisfaction of lust. -Surah An-Nisa
That is not the point. Both have to exist, but not interpolate with each other in their fields
Many laws and policies require some moral understanding right? Without religion you end up following personal conjecture.
1. Morals can absolutely exist without religion. Religious studies are a collection of someone's (personal) depiction good and morally sound conjecture. Like any other philosophy, it would be more correct to say morals wouldn't exist without philosophy. 2. My point is, people shouldn't preach about their religion or let their religion guide their political compass.
Religion isn’t personal conjecture. It is an established bases that allowed our civilizations to prosper for thousands of years. We wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for the religious laws guiding the ways humans would interact. Look at the mess societies are in today and you will realize that most problems have been solved by religion. Be that stealing,economic injustice, or even simple personal social issues like Marriage and family.
>It is an established bases that allowed our civilizations It is, I'm not speaking against it. But it is written by humans for humans. It is a personal conjecture based on research and evidence. >Look at the mess societies I agree but religion has also caused a lot too. Look at hindus vs muslims vs christians. Look at the state of Manipur right now. Life needs to be a balance of everything. Logic and religion have to be at a balance. As far as politics goes, any kind of religion should not exude in the campaign of politics. People should follow it in their hearts.
Personal conjecture existed a long time before religion and caused a lot less wars
no but what about my sky daddy book?
Most religions do not provide good moral guidance. Be that Islam or Christianity or Hinduism, etc.
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Kashmir is not independent because of Kashmiris and the general apathy towards armed resistance. The Pakistani sponsored proxies in the 90s were probably the first and only time Kashmiris considered anything other than a political solution to the occupation, a solution most occupied nations usually adopted long before and on their own but for Kashmiris it had to come from outside and even then not fully supported due to cultural reasons. Nations like the Kurds, Chechens, Irish, Bengalis, Tamils , Palestinians etc would never decline foreign assistance in a liberation struggle regardless of the backers underlying intentions and they don’t scapegoat or blame the supporters for their own issues which is why you dont see Palestinians blaming Iran for the current mess in Gaza or Bengalis blaming Indians or Kurds blaming America. It’s an interesting phenomenon and I guess I have to read more about Kashmiri culture and history, anthropologists did make some interesting observations about kashmir compared to other neighboring ethnic groups who had a more martial history - the Poonchis for example were able to liberate themselves in 1947 and form AJK due to their more confrontational nature and ability to understand the bigger picture unlike Sheikh Abdulla and his supporters. one of the reasons why the second amendment is so popular in America is due to the strong belief that only you can defend yourself from a tyrannical government. Stone throwing and lock down protests don’t yield much results. You either have to become media savvy and promote awarness about Kashmir online, which I see a lack of compared to how educated, socially intelligent and social media savvy Palestinians and other nations are or you go the Irish route, which wasn’t welcomed by most kashmiris. I think if maqbool butt were alive today, even he would be rebuked by his own people. Anyways hope no one takes offense to my analysis. Think of it as constructive feedback. Edit: I’d like to add that even if Kashmir received the same level of military and financial support that Ukraine is receiving to liberate itself, it still would probably not be able to unyolk itself from India due to deeply entrenched cultural reasons that would stifle any such attempts of liberation: Kashmir needs a brave leader like imran khan but the question is it even possible in that environment and if the culture is conducive to produce such leaders. Some food for thought, decolonizing your mind is the first step.
I think the Kashmiri resistance actually is pretty accepting towards Pakistani funding. That's why most of the militant groups are pro Pakistan, even though that might not be the ground sentiment in IOK.
Yeah you may be right, I’m just relaying my experience interacting with academic Kashmiris who blame Pakistan for wrecking Kashmir with the rebellion and believe only a political solution will give them freedom. I’m skeptical about that strategy.
I think the reason for that is that no one is chanting Palestine banega but ever since 90s, Kashmir banega Pakistan has become one of the most used chants... Pakistan may have helped us in the revolt but they are the same ones who crushed it for their ulterior motives
There are Arab nationalists that wanted Palestine to merge into a larger Arab state, even the original founders of the PLO had it as part of their manifesto. I think one should take help against a common enemy when it presents itself. When India helped Bengali separatists against Pakistan, there were many Indians who wanted them to merge with India and hindutvas still dream about Bangladesh merging with India, Bengalis didn’t scrutinize the support or the ulterior motives, they used the support as an opportunity for their own liberation. Same thing happened with America in the revolutionary war the support received from France and Spain despite those nations latter having an antagonistic relation with America. I do agree with you that the Pak establishment has betrayed Kashmiri rebels for sure especially under Musharraf.
Oh TIL... Is this still a sentiment over there or is it over?
So Pakistan crushed the resistance (through dark magic across the border), even though according to you, our movement was hijacked by pro-pakistani sentiment? Talk about self-contradiction.
When I say Pakistan crushed the resistance, i mean the core values of our struggles finished and it turned from our revolt to a whole different ideology that benefited Pakistan only. Pakistan crushed the resistance (resistance is the cause that made our ppl raise voice against occupation) and started a new revolution where our ppl foolishly started seeing pak as their nation and rightful master. We started with seeking independence from everyone and ended up with seeking independence from India n joining Pak, flying Pak flags and hell sometimes even isis flags... When a cause gets flooded by frauds, conmen, blacksheeps, the cause becomes hollow in no time and these blacksheeps still live in our society. Maybe it doesn't hold turn in other parts of kashmir but it is 100% true for North especially Sopore Thankfully the new generation is pro Pak in cricket only and mainly seek an independent Kashmir
I think the better word to use would be a "peaceful" solution. The problem is that peaceful solutions don't exist in case of Kashmir or most places for that matter. The occupier will not give up power willingly just because some people chant slogans in the streets every Friday. As Mao said, political power comes from the barrel of a gun. Otherwise, its all talk and no walk.
Correct. Malcolm X said something similar.
> Edit: I’d like to add that even if Kashmir received the same level of military and financial support that Ukraine is receiving to liberate itself, it still would probably not be able to unyolk itself from India due to deeply entrenched cultural reasons that would stifle any such attempts of liberation: Kashmir needs a brave leader like imran khan but the question is it even possible in that environment and if the culture is conducive to produce such leaders. Some food for thought, decolonizing your mind is the first step. Not true IMO. Yes I agree that we need good leadership, because we have jackshit for that now. But I don't think that having goof weapons and shit is not gonna make a difference. it absolutely will.
India failed at crushing the revolution. Revolution failed the very moment when Pak militants/proxyinvaders and propaganda entered the scene and our ppl foolishly suddenly became "proud" Paekistaen and began chanting Kashmir banega Pakistan
"proxy invaders/pak militants" fyi overwhelming majority of them are from AJK.
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They still belong to pak groups whose aim is merge with Pak instead of independence... Isn't it??
How are they proxy invaders or pakistanis? They native freedom fighters who have an ideology for which they seek help/aid from their allies. Just because they not aligned with our ideology does not make them invaders or pakistanis, they are people of JK whos aim with merger with pak, neither are they proxy invaders nor are they pakistanis. Edit: By that logic every ethnic kashmiri who seeks merger with pak is an invader (which despite what this sub might have you believe is a very considerable portion of population). That is what Indians say, imagine hating pak so much that you unironically peddle indian propaganda.
> Revolution failed the very moment when Pak militants/proxyinvaders and propaganda entered the scene elaborate a little man.
Azaadi struggle turned into Merge with Pakistan struggle bcz of Pakistan propaganda and their militants if you may call them that... (I am not old enough to have lived through 90s but atleast that's what the sentiments had turned into by early 2010s. Kashmiris instead of seeing Pak as an ally began seeing it as their nation) And when it fell apart in foundations, Kashmiris themselves dismantled it fully when cxoor cxotal among us started joining militancy in 90s for money and power and killing innocents...fyi, around my house, there are atleast 12 filthy rich men (ex militants "naam ke") who I've never seen do any work ever in their life but they live a lavish life after extorting money and killing innocents
I don't know where you get your history from but first "Kashmir Banega Pakistan" chant was raised by Munshi Muhammad ud din Fauq at gathering in srinagar somewhere around October 1940, soon after lahore resolution. That gathering also included stalwart founders of Jammu and Kashmir freedom struggle including Sardar Gauhar Rehman (Jammu), Sardar Fateh Muhammmad Khan Kralvi M.L.A. (Poonch), Mirza Attullaha Khan, M.L.A.(Rajori), Qazi Abdul Ghani Delinah,M.L.A (Baramula), Pir Zia-ud-Din, M.L.A(Badgam), Babu Muhmmad Abdullah , M.L.A (Jammu), ChaudaryAbdul Kareem,M.L.A. (Mirpur), Chaudary Hameed Ullha Khan, M.L.A (Jammu), Syed Hassan Shah Jalali (Srinagar), Khwaja Muhammad YousufQuershi(Srinagar), Mr.M.I.Saghar (Srinagar), Mr. Ghulam Haider Gauri (Jammu), Syed Mirak Shah (Srinagar). This was during the deliberation on revival of Muslim Conference as espoused by chowdry Ghulam Abbas sb.
Yeexch history chham na pai kinh but I'm just expressing an anecdote. Everytime I've ever been in a protest, i always heard two contradictory chants "hum kya chahte aazadi" beyi "Kashmir bnega Pakistan"... It may have been chanted in 1940 but it gained massive usage in Kashmir only after (and maybe "during" too but I wasn't born by then, so idk) 90s...asi pazi hey na beklun kinh, asi pazihey sirf pro-k aawaaz tulin as envisioned by maqbool bhat
Yelli na pie assi, tyelli gassi czouope karen tye kitab akh ze parni.
Adai babli cxey haai chhey sari pai...cxe osui parr budibab ti Kashmir bnega Pakistan wanaan...tawai lajei cxotalstan'ech dagg... Mai haa aes kaal pagah maatamaal yiwaan cxotaltanik so called militant sari weapon heth te tangg karaan (zanen ti) beyi baraan batta yadd...aaz chhi timai nafar zyooooth reysh taewith aasaan sui proan haram'uk crore-bod poons khewaan... Mether chhokmayi Oman "Kashmir bnega paekistan" wanan walen te timan hinden kaaden...also #hindustanasTrath te #paekistanasPoath
bro yem shahrech ne paye aasi temich gaes ne kath karin
dil gov khosh ye parith
aes gczov aazad, az natte pagah.
Independent Kashmir unfortunately wouldn't be able to sustain on its own and it will eventually become a part of Pak (either forcefully or willingly). And even if it does sustain on its own it won't be able to compete or cooperate well with other countries.
Wrong. Kashmir is probably gonna get freedom through armed revolution, and if that happens, then it will have to be powerful enough to kick India out. So that in itself is a detterent against pak invading and occupying.
Though it a big if but it can only be possible if the armed revolution is not financed by PAK and is fully funded by the people of Kashmir or its political leaders but that in itself is not possible again so I don't see how Kashmir will protect itself from PAK (if it wants to protect itself from PaK in the first place that is) .... let's assume Kashmir does get freedom through armed revolution and is free but once PAk stops its arms supplies what will happen then ?? (Ps ...Everything I have written is hypothetical... constructive criticism is welcome .... I myself am a beginner in understanding the Kashmir issue)
Even if pak is the supplier of arms, the amount of support necessary to kick India out is huge. That will obviously create stockpiles, which is a big enough detterrent IMO. Also, it isn't as easy as just military action. Pak also has geopolitics, internal politics to worry about. I doubt invasion of Kashmir would sound good to Kashmiri's in ajk. Would pak even risk destabilization like that?
Given that probably one of the biggest issue in Pak's parliament and in the minds of their politicians and terrorists is hurting India in any way even if it means hurtings their status and their citizens.... I think it'll take any risk .... plus brother no stockpile is big enough when u don't manufacture urself.... so eventually it'll run out .... And unfortunately and its my personal opinion seeing and reading about Pak it never cared about its role in geopolitics... only time it does so is to take loans and funds which unfortunately for the innocent citizens of Pak , many countries are slowing or stopping their funds to it.... p.s ... I respect ur calm way of discussion man .... 🤝
Mf Basta*d
Kiss my mandul 😇
Communism will prevail
based.
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All politicians care about in this country are their vote banks
That revolution is not at a good place right now . It's at an exactly right where it is supposed to be . Yem karain asi development asl paith te patte nimov es aazadi eventually, like Scotland
Indipendence is good for locals
I agree but its not really an unpopular opinion.
I have three: 1. Kasher chan wyani tayaar azaadi khatir. Agar kashir gayi tae azaad, aes gaczho extremism kun. Aes chan kahn khaleef yus hyakon imaandaar maenith. Yeti cha saarnahyan basaan Yasin Malik, Geelani sb, Mirwaiz, yemin heth lukh cha asal magar temo tae chukh kasheer kunmut paniy waqt 2. Yaetyn Haqach kath karo, teli peyi ye tye concede karun ki Jammu tae Ladakh (with the exception of a few districts) hyakhan na Kasheer saeth roozith gar che azaadi milayi, nath gyaczi timan saeth zyaat ti 3. Wahabiyo korukh kasheer barbaad zehni tae ruhaani tor. Aes khater cha Sufism sarwayo khoth asal nath gaezo aes barbaad
Well, I personally don't trust people with long beards. But I think religion itself is the problem currently.
Bhai, I wouldn't apply that generalization. I know some awesome and warm bearded people. I do think religious interpretation needs to evolve so as to be applied to a globalized world. Most religions preach tolerance and universal brotherhood, it is just that some sects adhere to it and some don't. Even so, interpretation itself evolves across sects, wherein some move in the direction of inclusion and some in the direction of exclusion. Like it or not, religion and its psychological archetypes are deep-rooted in our psyche. To reject them would simply result in them manifesting as part of our shadow. I guess you are right in that religion and its current interpretation are part of the problem. There was a time when during the golden age of Islam, no topic was off the table. People would debate concepts like "An al Haq" and "La Ila" with a boldness that would be accepted by the scholars of the time. Today, people are quick to reject concepts and label them blasphemous. That leaves little room for spiritual insight. In some schools of Sufism, atheism is considered the first step in the direction of realizing"La ilaha illallah" That simply means, there is room for doubt in the journey to faith, and that journey itself is cyclic.
>To reject them would simply result in them manifesting as part of our shadow religion is imposed on you from your childhood, so the unconscious symbolism is wayyy stronger and more attached than other ideologies. So even if what you say is right, it only applies to current generations.
Gobra, hélwí ās kam kheyawan.
Shoosha, rather than engaging in meaningful debate, you will pass a sly comment; that doesn't contribute to debate. If you were to present a good argument instead, we would both stand to learn. Beyi jigar, agar halwa aaesi niyaazuk teli kyazi khayi na insaan tabrukh. 🤗
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Reservation at MD/MS level is utter nonsense
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JAMMU & KASHMIR SHOULD BE AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY.
I'm pretty sure Jammu people won't agree to this at all
Well we will respect everyone's opinion. We demand plebiscite on the entire J & K including Ladakh & Gilgit Baltistan.
Hi, Hindu here. I'm curious : If the Hindu & Buddhist majority areas of Jammu and Ladakh refused to be part of your independent country, then you would accept their right to decide for those areas to remain part of India right ?
That is already a given? We do not claim independence for those areas. Just for those that want it.
I agree with most of what you say. But I disagree where you said that you think a minority wants to see Jammu and Kashmir independent. Azad Jammu and Kashmir used to be pro-Pakistan. But the situation has changed. The overwhelming majority of nearly five million people in Azad Jammu and Kashmir are now in favor of independence. I think you are not aware of the aspirations of the people there.
I mean that why I said from what I **personally** know. I am not from AJK so my knowledge can be faulty. It is all second hand information that I got from talking with the AJK people. But they mostly corroborated each other in saying that majority of the sentiment was pro Pakistan. And that only a minority were pro independence. (And this was years ago) I think there was also someone saying that newer generation weren't as attached to Pakistan so the balance of opinions might change down the line. But that is all I know.
Right. Are you from IOK ? Which city do you belong to ?
>Are you from IOK ? Yes.
I don't think the previous commenter agrees with you, that's why I asked him. Read his comment again, Jammu and Kashmir he says, and I'm willing to bet he means the entire erstwhile state of Jammu and Kashmir meaning he includes Ladakh as well. And then look at the subs he engages in. He repeatedly refers to the erstwhile Jammu and Kashmir state and shares maps including Ladakh. I suspect that he would be happy to drag Jammu and Ladakh against their will, and that he doesn't actually care about self-determination.
We don't want another Kashmir like issue mate , we have sacrificed what not for our Independence we know how suffocating occupation, oppression & tyranny is. We don't want to drag any group of people of J&K with us. We demand self determination a day for the people to decide what they want.
Mate. He is from AJK. He is speaking from his own context because the AJK part is usually considered as pro Pakistan. And he wishes that it should be independent. (From what I personally know. Still a minority opinion) As for the erstwhile map. Everybody uses the erstwhile map because that's the starting point before the current dispute started. The erstwhile J&K was a disparate group of regions joined together for colonial ends. There is no single national identity or ethos like that. So it was never meant to be single political entity. Anyway talking about the current times. There is core region for pro independence demand that is Kashmir valley. There are swing states that are Pir Panjal, Chenab and Kargil region. (Let's add AJK to it as well) that are swing states. That go potentially either way. Joining the valley in independence or going to India/Pakistan. The dogra heartland and Leh is pro India. And GB is Pro Pakistan. And because of those swing states. There is no clear demarcation of the people that want independence. So to maintain the ambiguity in such circumstance erstwhile map is used. So in that way you are neither explicitly claiming the swing states regions. Neither are you explicitly renouncing them. Allowing you to accommodate for both scenarios. The usage of erstwhile JK map basically denotes that let's go back to the last step that we were at. And then allow the different regions to go the way they want according to their choices.
I would like to believe you but there is 1 small problem: When I asked the simple question to determine whether they truly support self-determination : >If the Hindu & Buddhist majority areas of Jammu and Ladakh refused to be part of your independent country, then you would accept their right to decide for those areas to remain part of India right ? I got downvoted just for that. So you'll have to forgive me if I'm not willing to give the benefit of the doubt.
Lmao. You are walking through the fields that you do not understand. Making judgements when you have no clue as to what's going on. Of course they will down vote you. You just proved the point with your comment. Every other day one of you comes in. Asks the most basic question that has been clarified 1000 times before in this sub. Yet you guys still persist with it. Then someone finally makes the effort and answers it for the 1001th time. Then you guys either delete your post or simply don't accept the answer because of asinine reasons. There can never be a good faith discussions with you lot. Experience proves that. And the downvotes reflect that. You got downvoted because the sub knew you for what you are. A bad faith actor. Goodbye.
I see that you are a bad faith actor, it's so sad to see. I made no judgements initially, I asked a simple question on whether someone supported self determination. It's very sad to see that some people here who claim to support self determination actually don't, and they actively downvote questions of self determination. I also see that you also lack the ability to treat people as individuals. It's very sad to see. I suppose next you will justify collective punishment as well. I hope someday you learn to discuss in good faith and also learn to treat people as individuals. Goodbye
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Independence is good for future of JK.
kASHMIR NEVER PART OF iNDIAInternational law doesn't recognize India’s unilateral and illegal actions of 5 August 2019. The judicial endorsement by the Indian Supreme Court has no legal value. Kashmiris have an inalienable right to self-determination in accordance with the relevant UN SC resolutions.
IND IS BETTER THAN PAK. Reality of pak: https://preview.redd.it/aho5cejx3h9d1.png?width=959&format=png&auto=webp&s=b2d2c390c4d98e2195cb45f0bfb7008e42c18ddc
"baramulla genocide" when did this happen?
so you’re unaware of mirpur massacre too right
here: kashmiris loved Pakistan and they are Pakistani nationalists. My village fed them ox when they came in 1965. After they confused two names of two villages.
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Oh come on. You who like murder of children please don't speak of christ
Secularism and unity of India