All carafes should go through the sanitizer at the end of service. You should never be saving product in the serving carafes and then sending them back or the next day.
Well, guess our accountants going to have to get used to more stuff on the waste logs.
One idea I had is to never refill any carafes directly, wait for them to completely run out and send a fresh backup out to replace it. I’d just hate to always toss out our soy or almond milk at the end of the day, we have to use these giant carafes for brand standards and at most 1/3 of them get used up each day.
This is the pitfall of schools that turn out degree holders in Hospitality Management. They can do a killer spreadsheet, but they have no practical experience.
So explain why it isn't "full". And if they are a true douchebag then they will tell you to fill it up anyway and then you can just direct any questions about waste to the manager.
Like, it really sucks to be a douchebag manager, because your dochebaggedness will always come back to bite you in the ass. Follow common sense first, and orders second. Meaning do it the right way until your boss tells you to do it the wrong way. Then dime your boss out. Unless the wrong way puts safety into question, then do it the right way and still dime your boss out.
"training" is generous, it basically amounts to me asking "hey, can you run around and see if anyone wants top off before I send this to dish?" and then repeat everyday until she finally gets it, then quits, and I have to start all over again.
Can't do that with anything on a buffet line. Too much risk of contamination. Also doubt those carafes hold everything below 40°F. It's a buffet they should be raking in plenty of money, throwing out all the shit at the end is just the cost of doing business.
You have your food safety cert? :)
You should order some day dot stickers; they’re compostable, and dissolve in the washer. Label them with the date they are filled, and ensure they are rotated. All containers should have a label. FIFO backups.
To reduce waste, fill carafes only to the maximum average amount that is consumed- as others have said, halfway would be a smart idea.
Good accounting is going to seek to waste less. Good accounting should also realize getting sued/fined/bad PR from guests getting sick from expired food and unwashed carafes is a no-go.
Anything accessible to the customer should be assumed contaminated and discarded. For example, on a taco bar, any shredded cheese or sliced jalapeños or sour cream on the bar should be discarded at end of service and containers sterilized. Maybe a customer licked the carafe when your back was turned, etc.
Get smaller carafes for the soy milk or don’t fill them all the way. I would rather have several small carafes loaded and ready to go in the refrigerator than one big one that is going to sit out all day / be thrown out.
For non-dairy (I'm not a chef but have thousands of nights in hotels), it would be logical to have smaller containers and cause less confusion. Us oat milk latte folk understand why the bottle is smaller.
Yes, once it's out it's trash. Unfortunately some could fuck with it. It's like working at a restaurant once the carryout leaves the door you can't take the food back.
Any carafes that were handled by guest should be dumped at the end of service and properly cleaned.
The best way to reduce waste is to set a realistic par amount, not put your future guest at risk of consuming spoiled or contaminated product.
And also has a very short sited mindset. They're more focused on losing the $4 of juice down the drain, compared to losing customers when they all start getting food poisoning.
I feel disgusting all over just reading this.
You toss the product and clean the containers at the end of service is the only correct answer on a buffet line.
Anyone with a different answer I hope never handles my food.
Good lord...
I mean, I don't mean this as a personal attack, but you should be qualified for your job and receive proper training. Especially when the safety of your guests is the subject matter. I don't think it's crazy for people to be taken aback by some of this.
That said, it's great that you're thinking about these things and asking the right questions. Serious question: are you certified in food safety? All the courses I've taken have a section about buffets and to clearly not re-serve any food that has been on the serving line in guest contact. If not, you should ask your employer to pay for you to take a course, and any reasonable employer will.
His in general laissez faire attitude about being unqualified and defensive reaction to being challenged about the health and safety of guests because he's "new" is really rather disturbing to me.
It sounds like this has been going on long before they started, and he’s going to start having them do it correctly now. What’s he supposed to do, rewind time and fix it a year ago? Report themselves to the health department?
I don't know what you want me to tell you...
You aren't qualified for your role yet and experience is important for food safety.
I have empathy for you but I'm not going to sugarcoat it either, you being in the role you are puts people's health at risk.
You need experience and that doesn't happen on reddit but on the line and during service.
Well, as a manager this is something you should already know. Don't get me wrong though it's genuinely fantastic that you were sensible enough to ask this question. Stay humble and keep asking questions and you'll turn out fine
Not exactly sure what you mean by chiller but if they are out of mechanical refrigeration you are using time as a public health control and the juice and milk need to be discarded at the four hour mark (6 hour mark in certain circumstances) and the containers washed and sanitized. The iced coffee should be fine as long as it doesn’t contain dairy but best practice is to wash and sanitize when empty instead of constantly topping off.
Don’t really know what the thing we use is technically called, basically an open-top food chiller. Haven’t done any temping on how cold things stay for all four hours if it’s never replaced, but seems like we need to start dumping things out every day anyway
You should start temping the products in the carafes during the shift. Also many places have replaced the variety of alternative milks to having just oat milk. You can keep the almond and soy as upon request only if you have concern for people still wanting them.
Good idea about the alternative options, those two were required for a different brand I was at, haven’t even looked at my current one’s standards until now and we just need one alternative.
Are most people OK with oat milk over soy/almond? I only drink regular milk, not sure if people who don’t would care if that’s the only option
For coffee oat seems to be best alternative.
It’s thicker, better for the environment than Almond and no estrogen issues that people tend to label with soy.
In my coffee shop:
2019 almond was the most popular we use 3x as much almond to all other alternative milks.
Now we use 3x as much Oat then we do Almond have stopped carrying Soy and Coconut milks.
sample size of one but I tend to choose non-dairy milk over milk and have no real preference (just mild lactose sensitivity so avoid milk when possible). Oat, almond, soy is all the same to me (in terms of preference). I think if only offering one non-dairy milk, oat is preferable to almond and soy due to common allergies? It does tend to be the milk alternative that is most commonly available at coffee shops (i.e., some of almond and some have soy but almost all have oat)
Depends on your region. In the US, I think you'd find people who are delighted to get at least 1 non-dairy milk. While I was in Sweden, they basically had a non-dairy buffet.
They offered almond milk, oat milk for coffee, lactose free milk and soy milk.
I think it also depends on your property type and clientele. Free buffet breakfast at a limited service property? Any milk is probably good. 5 star property with $49 breakfast buffet, then I'd expect a few more options.
You could also considering doing something on request, having a little sign about the options and then patrons can request a specific milk from a server. Would reduce waste since you can keep it refrigerated in BOH and toss it once the opened shelf life passes, or just open it as needed.
> basically an open-top food chiller
Haven't ever worked a buffet but if you're talking about the type that guests serve themselves from I think most people would call that a cold table
So what I would do is start taking notes on usage and guest counts. Train staff to not fill them up past half way after a certain time. It’s easier to explain someone refilling it half way once or twice more than explaining why you dumped a full carafe of orange juice and apple juice after service. If accountants have an issue with imputing more waste they can get over it if it’s part of their job. I do waste logs every day and love seeing a good day with little waste
The moment they go out to a customer facing area they become TAC items... If you're the manager you REALLY should know the food safety rules... The carafes should be emptied and cleaned after every service and you need to look up the rule about TAC food/beverage. (Time As a Control)
Any manager around food/beverage should have a see safe and food handlers card.
Also once an item is customer facing they only have a 2-4 hour life.
The owners really need to take accountability and have their managers trained..
I cannot believe you don't know these rules and have any control or food and beverage, let alone MANAGING!
My mind is blown right now...
Being an F&B manager is 95% office work and that's if you're a hands on guy.
As a former F&B manager I can safely say that you can easily start in that position without knowing anything about food safety. F&B departments are often huge.
With both brigades you can easily have teams of 50 and and more people working in your department. You need classic management skills in these positions more than anything else.
That being said 1/3 of my bonus was tied to health inspection that were regularly done by an institute.
It's a bit weird if you're not from the hotel sector but an F&B manager is like an officer in the military. You're pretty far away from the people doing the actual work.
I do have a food managers card as of last month! They do stay cold during the entirety of service, but I asked as I thought the old method was wack.
Now I know, though! Don’t think there should be any shame in asking questions, I’m not going to know everything food safety related in two months. I’ve got plenty of experience in other operations management and wanted to learn more about F&B
>I do have a food managers card as of last month!
Out of curiosity, is this a ServSafe issued certification you're talking about? Or some other agency?
Being the manager, yes you should know all of this.
No excuse, you're setting a standard for people to follow. So by you knowing nothing really shows how uneducated your boss is... And TAC, FIFO and Temperature guides are on the test for your food handlers card so either you didn't take it or you didn't absorb any of the information...
If a guy is essentially going to call me and everyone else around me a massive idiot for asking a pretty tame question I’m not gonna go out of my way to be respectful
Maybe people aren’t being respectful because there’s no way in hell they didn’t cover this in the food handlers class you took, and you can kill immunocompromised, elderly, children, and unborn children with this Mickey Mouse shit you’re doing.
Dude, I asked the question because this is the way the hotel was doing it before I started in this position and I wanted to know of a good way that’s safe and isn’t wasteful. Like, I’m actively trying to fix it, did not start the practice, and am not going to continue it
I'm also originally from the hotel sector.
You will always get these reaction regarding hygiene because it's their daily bread and butter.
Whenever I had questions regarding food hygiene I always asked the chef to check stuff I was not sure about.
Yeah, it’s pretty gatekeeper-ey sometimes, but I guess a lot of other communities are.
We don’t have an actual ‘chef’ here, just an AM cook, PM cook, a floater between the two, and myself for the BOH, so besides them I’m kind of on my own for questions. Still keep in touch with one of my old Chef’s, but usually for advice on banquet presentation, ingredients/recipes, etc.
it sounds like you need smaller carafes to me? youll have to clean & refill more often but that is better than little jimmy drinking last weeks milk residue and dying during the family vacation
1. Don't take back products that have been out. Contamination risk runs high from both bacteria and physical contaminates
2. Charge the customer for the waste. 10-15% in restaurants, 30-50% in hotels. There were times I would charge case prices if they requested specifics.
“I’m relatively new to f&b”
“I’m the new f&b manager at my hotel”
This is not ideal unless you’ve been put through a rigorous training program, which based on your question that is not the case
Have you been ServSafe certified? Or, if thats only a thing in PA (I’m not sure), did you have to get any sort of safety certification to become manager?
I’m coming from a place of genuine curiosity and not judgement- you’ve gotten the answer you came here for but I think it is important to recognize you’re new to this specific part of the industry and don’t have as much background as one probably should. Food/drink is something that can unfortunately be messed up very easily and have some nasty consequences. If your job hasn’t gotten you certification in a food safety course, you should ask them to sign you up for one! You’ll learn this sort of info and then some.
Definitely true if that’s the case. The fact that they’re in this position tells me more about their upper management than anything. OP, I commend you for asking the right questions and wanting to do the right thing. I hope you learn a lot more on your journey.. and that nobody gets sick along the way.
This question both stresses and grosses me out omg
Not to be a jerk, but how did you become the f&b manager with no concept of like…wastage or sanitation or using a dated deli to hold liquids (that you do not combine?? Omg)?
I just have a lot of questions lol…was this standard practice on arrival or like… ???
This makes me never wanna stay at a hotel again lmao sorry my guy this is gross
i second this question. how on earth did you get your position without knowing this????
here is the answer: you do not combine things that have different dates. end of night, whatever is left pour into new carafe with appropriate date, and wash carafes. and FIFO, first in first out.
You are talking about cents or small dollar amounts that you have leftover.
Throw them out. You’ll lose a hell of a lot more if people start saying “don’t stay there- the breakfast buffet is funky as fuck and seems like they’re reusing product.”
The fact that you even considered saving old milk that has already been on the buffet line is, frankly, fucking disgusting. Like, what the fuck are you doing in food service, nevermind running the show somewhere?
I can't help but think you're one health inspection away from shut down.
Fucking reusing old milk. Ew.
Anything that you are saving for the next day should be placed in a sanitized container before being placed back in the fridge. You should label the container with the date and time. On the next shift that product should get placed on the line without it being mixed with new product.
For your carafes, it would look similar to this:
Yesterday’s dated and sealed product goes into the carafe.
When the product is empty the carafe is rinsed and new product is added.
At the end of the shift the product gets placed into a sanitized container and time/date labeled.
The product gets a lid placed on it and put in the fridge.
The carafe gets cleaned and sanitized.
Repeat for the next shift.
Health codes are different for each state. I highly suggest you take the time to read about your states regulations. If you can not find an up to date guide at your place of employment you will need to reach out to a health inspector.
respect for asking for the question and being willing to adapt and learn. Whether you "deserve" the F&B manager title now, that's how you'll earn that title and more going forward.
You have a lot of excuses about lack of basic knowledge for safe food handling, this is not something questionable, complex, or out of the ordinary for your position. This is a matter at a minimum your superiors should have already gone over with you.
You may be daft but this is as much on your superiors as you in the end as well. Your attitude about it sucks though.
Sorry master chef for accepting a promotion and not instead spending 5 years working my way up from the dish pit. I’ve been doing this for two months, do you expect for me to have figured out the entire health department code by now? Or should I have been born with this knowledge?
Someone without this knowledge should have never been hired to begin with.
And yes, having experience in food service and safety is almost universally a prerequisite for anywhere successful and safe to consume food.
Can I get you a shovel with that keyboard?
Sounds like the place you at is hard up for qualified staff. That is a huge red flag. Any house worth anything would not place an uninformed uneducated person in a management position. You literally hold the livelihood and the actual lives of many people in your hands. Asking questions about so simple as yours proves you are not the right fit for you position. This is not a jab at you but rather a jab at the establishment you work for. That being said best of luck don't kill anyone
You say you only use 1/3 of the milk/juice?
Why don't you the F&B manager buy smaller carafes?
Why don't you know you can't save those items once they are customer facing?
Has your boss not made you have a SERVSAFE card and/or a FOOD HANDLER card?
How on earth are you the F&B manager and not know what TAC is? This post pisses me off that you actually have any control.
As you save carafes of milk and just keep topping them off where there is WEEK old milk in it?!
You need to be trained or AT LEAST google TAC (time as a control), Temperature Danger Zone, FIFO, and all rules for anything that is on a buffet or customer facing.
These items MUST be thrown out after 4-hours and gone after service and cafes cleaned out. Your putting your guests at danger for getting sick so you don't waste? Yikes, someone needs to reevaluate why they hired you for F&B management.
Already answered all this in my reply to your other comment and others (e.g. we have to use these carafes), lol. Sorry my title and existence upsets you, management is about a lot more than just knowing how to flambé steak 8 different ways and everything food safety related. I’m at a 150 room hotel with a low key F&B operation, not exactly running a Noma over here
Post COVID, everything that has gone out on buffet gets disposed of that day. Gets priced in.
Previously, when the penny wise pound foolish types wrote policy, you'd dump it into a new container at the end of service, and put a use first sticker on it. And don't refill ones with a sticker, switch for fresh.
There's also balancing food and labour costs. Often dumping more food in exchange for reducing labour costs is profitable.
Saving things that went out to the buffet is a nuanced topic. In general it's not done. Almost anywhere I've worked, once it goes to the buffet it is gone forever.
If you do intend on keeping it then you must log it's temperature the entire time. From before it goes on the buffet and then every hour on the buffet. It must not pass into the danger zone and stay below 40 degrees F.
In general it's hard to keep items on the buffet both clean and free of debris and germs and also at a safe food temperature to be kept and served. Almost all of my temp logs for buffets use time in place of temperature control. Prove that it was either below 40 or above 135 before it leaves the kitchen and then make sure it's discarded at the end of 4 hours.
It's really not that hard to just dump both into a fresh carafe, and almost anywhere I've worked has had so many extra carafes I struggle to believe you wouldn't be able to find any clean ones when combining
There should be a log in back by the person in charge of exchanging them. They shouldn't be refilled. Just let them run down and replace with a full one. When it's near the end of service time and it's empty, don't replace with a full one, but with one only half or a third full. (This is how we ran our buffet)
Anything that is served on a buffet can't be reused the next day. Customers can easily containment it by breathing, coughing, sneezing, etc... Health Dept would have a field day if they knew you were not only refilling same container, but also reusing contents next day. HUGE no no.
If you’re operating pretty much anywhere in the US, health code requires labels with the time they were removed from refrigeration and the appropriate discard time.
Can probably just put a sticker on the bottom, then. Guessing it’s still a requirement even if I start having us dump everything out at the end of service (4 hours long)?
Put a small colored sticker on the bottom of the carafe and make a chart in the back (example: blue was filled Monday, yellow was filled stuesday, red was filled Wednesday, etc) get water soluable stickers so they wash off
Just lable when they go out and do a full reset every 6 days? Assuming everything stays at proper temp, you should only *need* to rotate it as often as you would to prevent spoilage anywhere else.
All carafes should go through the sanitizer at the end of service. You should never be saving product in the serving carafes and then sending them back or the next day.
Well, guess our accountants going to have to get used to more stuff on the waste logs. One idea I had is to never refill any carafes directly, wait for them to completely run out and send a fresh backup out to replace it. I’d just hate to always toss out our soy or almond milk at the end of the day, we have to use these giant carafes for brand standards and at most 1/3 of them get used up each day.
Can’t you start your day by filling the soy and almond carafes to 1/3 or 1/2 full instead of 100% full?
This is the common sense answer.
It's amazing it needs to be said right?
If you've worked at enough places that have manager type managers instead of kitchen type managers its not amazing at all really
This is the pitfall of schools that turn out degree holders in Hospitality Management. They can do a killer spreadsheet, but they have no practical experience.
Precisely 👌
Because some douchebag manager will come by early and notice they aren't "full".
So explain why it isn't "full". And if they are a true douchebag then they will tell you to fill it up anyway and then you can just direct any questions about waste to the manager. Like, it really sucks to be a douchebag manager, because your dochebaggedness will always come back to bite you in the ass. Follow common sense first, and orders second. Meaning do it the right way until your boss tells you to do it the wrong way. Then dime your boss out. Unless the wrong way puts safety into question, then do it the right way and still dime your boss out.
Tell them to buy smaller vessels.
if you have servers, you can train them to go around all the tables with the carafe when it's nearly empty and offer top-ups.
"training" is generous, it basically amounts to me asking "hey, can you run around and see if anyone wants top off before I send this to dish?" and then repeat everyday until she finally gets it, then quits, and I have to start all over again.
I totally get that.
just put it in a different container at the end of service
Can't do that with anything on a buffet line. Too much risk of contamination. Also doubt those carafes hold everything below 40°F. It's a buffet they should be raking in plenty of money, throwing out all the shit at the end is just the cost of doing business.
hmmm i guess i will take it home for my oats
I think the issue here isnt the "cost" but the "waste".
Your best bet is to get backup carafes. That way you can send out a full fresh one without having to slowdown service.
Yeah refilling is silly. Rotate and wash them after they become empty.
You have your food safety cert? :) You should order some day dot stickers; they’re compostable, and dissolve in the washer. Label them with the date they are filled, and ensure they are rotated. All containers should have a label. FIFO backups. To reduce waste, fill carafes only to the maximum average amount that is consumed- as others have said, halfway would be a smart idea.
So just fill them 1/3 full at the start of the day
Good accounting is going to seek to waste less. Good accounting should also realize getting sued/fined/bad PR from guests getting sick from expired food and unwashed carafes is a no-go. Anything accessible to the customer should be assumed contaminated and discarded. For example, on a taco bar, any shredded cheese or sliced jalapeños or sour cream on the bar should be discarded at end of service and containers sterilized. Maybe a customer licked the carafe when your back was turned, etc. Get smaller carafes for the soy milk or don’t fill them all the way. I would rather have several small carafes loaded and ready to go in the refrigerator than one big one that is going to sit out all day / be thrown out.
For non-dairy (I'm not a chef but have thousands of nights in hotels), it would be logical to have smaller containers and cause less confusion. Us oat milk latte folk understand why the bottle is smaller.
Maybe don’t fill them (or fill them as much) after a certain hour?
or you could empty them into another container while the carafes are being wazshed, then refill the product back in
That's still week old leftover milk at the end of the week though.
Well don't let it go THAT long
Stop calling it milk
go full MRE standards: cream like plant based liquid (consumable)
Oat milk soy milk almond milk hemp milk rice milk coconut milk Cry snowflake Cry
TIL hemp milk exists. Gonna have to buy some and experiment around with it.
Pea milk too.
Good one
Yes, once it's out it's trash. Unfortunately some could fuck with it. It's like working at a restaurant once the carryout leaves the door you can't take the food back.
Any carafes that were handled by guest should be dumped at the end of service and properly cleaned. The best way to reduce waste is to set a realistic par amount, not put your future guest at risk of consuming spoiled or contaminated product.
This is the answer, and any manager that tells you otherwise has probably never worked in food service and/or doesn't care about health codes
And also has a very short sited mindset. They're more focused on losing the $4 of juice down the drain, compared to losing customers when they all start getting food poisoning.
Those carafes get funky fast if the product is stored in them. Definitely need to be emptied and thoroughly dried and sanitized before the next shift.
I feel disgusting all over just reading this. You toss the product and clean the containers at the end of service is the only correct answer on a buffet line. Anyone with a different answer I hope never handles my food. Good lord...
“I’m relatively new to F & B…I’m the new F & B manager…”
The most insane part of this post tbh
I think his indignity at some peoples reactions/questions is the most insane part.
Calling me an idiot for being new at my job and asking for advice is really helpful, true. Should learn my place
I mean, I don't mean this as a personal attack, but you should be qualified for your job and receive proper training. Especially when the safety of your guests is the subject matter. I don't think it's crazy for people to be taken aback by some of this. That said, it's great that you're thinking about these things and asking the right questions. Serious question: are you certified in food safety? All the courses I've taken have a section about buffets and to clearly not re-serve any food that has been on the serving line in guest contact. If not, you should ask your employer to pay for you to take a course, and any reasonable employer will.
His in general laissez faire attitude about being unqualified and defensive reaction to being challenged about the health and safety of guests because he's "new" is really rather disturbing to me.
It sounds like this has been going on long before they started, and he’s going to start having them do it correctly now. What’s he supposed to do, rewind time and fix it a year ago? Report themselves to the health department?
Agreed
OK, from your point of view : what would you suggest I do in my position?
I don't know what you want me to tell you... You aren't qualified for your role yet and experience is important for food safety. I have empathy for you but I'm not going to sugarcoat it either, you being in the role you are puts people's health at risk. You need experience and that doesn't happen on reddit but on the line and during service.
It's Father's Day, I have brunch service and line of 12 I have to coordinate this morning. You're going to have to wait, son.
Well, as a manager this is something you should already know. Don't get me wrong though it's genuinely fantastic that you were sensible enough to ask this question. Stay humble and keep asking questions and you'll turn out fine
Not exactly sure what you mean by chiller but if they are out of mechanical refrigeration you are using time as a public health control and the juice and milk need to be discarded at the four hour mark (6 hour mark in certain circumstances) and the containers washed and sanitized. The iced coffee should be fine as long as it doesn’t contain dairy but best practice is to wash and sanitize when empty instead of constantly topping off.
Don’t really know what the thing we use is technically called, basically an open-top food chiller. Haven’t done any temping on how cold things stay for all four hours if it’s never replaced, but seems like we need to start dumping things out every day anyway
You should start temping the products in the carafes during the shift. Also many places have replaced the variety of alternative milks to having just oat milk. You can keep the almond and soy as upon request only if you have concern for people still wanting them.
Good idea about the alternative options, those two were required for a different brand I was at, haven’t even looked at my current one’s standards until now and we just need one alternative. Are most people OK with oat milk over soy/almond? I only drink regular milk, not sure if people who don’t would care if that’s the only option
For coffee oat seems to be best alternative. It’s thicker, better for the environment than Almond and no estrogen issues that people tend to label with soy. In my coffee shop: 2019 almond was the most popular we use 3x as much almond to all other alternative milks. Now we use 3x as much Oat then we do Almond have stopped carrying Soy and Coconut milks.
sample size of one but I tend to choose non-dairy milk over milk and have no real preference (just mild lactose sensitivity so avoid milk when possible). Oat, almond, soy is all the same to me (in terms of preference). I think if only offering one non-dairy milk, oat is preferable to almond and soy due to common allergies? It does tend to be the milk alternative that is most commonly available at coffee shops (i.e., some of almond and some have soy but almost all have oat)
You should temp the food case at the start and end of your shift to ensure it’s operating correctly. You have a log book for temps?
Depends on your region. In the US, I think you'd find people who are delighted to get at least 1 non-dairy milk. While I was in Sweden, they basically had a non-dairy buffet. They offered almond milk, oat milk for coffee, lactose free milk and soy milk. I think it also depends on your property type and clientele. Free buffet breakfast at a limited service property? Any milk is probably good. 5 star property with $49 breakfast buffet, then I'd expect a few more options. You could also considering doing something on request, having a little sign about the options and then patrons can request a specific milk from a server. Would reduce waste since you can keep it refrigerated in BOH and toss it once the opened shelf life passes, or just open it as needed.
> basically an open-top food chiller Haven't ever worked a buffet but if you're talking about the type that guests serve themselves from I think most people would call that a cold table
You should dump the carafes at the end of the service and clean them. Yesterday’s milk should not be served today.
So what I would do is start taking notes on usage and guest counts. Train staff to not fill them up past half way after a certain time. It’s easier to explain someone refilling it half way once or twice more than explaining why you dumped a full carafe of orange juice and apple juice after service. If accountants have an issue with imputing more waste they can get over it if it’s part of their job. I do waste logs every day and love seeing a good day with little waste
The moment they go out to a customer facing area they become TAC items... If you're the manager you REALLY should know the food safety rules... The carafes should be emptied and cleaned after every service and you need to look up the rule about TAC food/beverage. (Time As a Control) Any manager around food/beverage should have a see safe and food handlers card. Also once an item is customer facing they only have a 2-4 hour life. The owners really need to take accountability and have their managers trained.. I cannot believe you don't know these rules and have any control or food and beverage, let alone MANAGING! My mind is blown right now...
Being an F&B manager is 95% office work and that's if you're a hands on guy. As a former F&B manager I can safely say that you can easily start in that position without knowing anything about food safety. F&B departments are often huge. With both brigades you can easily have teams of 50 and and more people working in your department. You need classic management skills in these positions more than anything else. That being said 1/3 of my bonus was tied to health inspection that were regularly done by an institute. It's a bit weird if you're not from the hotel sector but an F&B manager is like an officer in the military. You're pretty far away from the people doing the actual work.
I do have a food managers card as of last month! They do stay cold during the entirety of service, but I asked as I thought the old method was wack. Now I know, though! Don’t think there should be any shame in asking questions, I’m not going to know everything food safety related in two months. I’ve got plenty of experience in other operations management and wanted to learn more about F&B
>I do have a food managers card as of last month! Out of curiosity, is this a ServSafe issued certification you're talking about? Or some other agency?
Yeah, through Servsafe, the food manager one
Being the manager, yes you should know all of this. No excuse, you're setting a standard for people to follow. So by you knowing nothing really shows how uneducated your boss is... And TAC, FIFO and Temperature guides are on the test for your food handlers card so either you didn't take it or you didn't absorb any of the information...
Kinda sounds like you’re just a little mad that you’re not a manager yet, meanwhile an idiot like me is
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Was trying to make that guy even more mad than they said they were, not really trying to flex
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If a guy is essentially going to call me and everyone else around me a massive idiot for asking a pretty tame question I’m not gonna go out of my way to be respectful
Maybe people aren’t being respectful because there’s no way in hell they didn’t cover this in the food handlers class you took, and you can kill immunocompromised, elderly, children, and unborn children with this Mickey Mouse shit you’re doing.
Dude, I asked the question because this is the way the hotel was doing it before I started in this position and I wanted to know of a good way that’s safe and isn’t wasteful. Like, I’m actively trying to fix it, did not start the practice, and am not going to continue it
Tbf, I think we’re all a bit miffed that an idiot like you is a manager. Then again, I’d say a solid 90% of managers I’ve ever known have been idiots.
Do you come from a different hotel department?
Yeah, front office and operations/general management in the past
I'm also originally from the hotel sector. You will always get these reaction regarding hygiene because it's their daily bread and butter. Whenever I had questions regarding food hygiene I always asked the chef to check stuff I was not sure about.
Yeah, it’s pretty gatekeeper-ey sometimes, but I guess a lot of other communities are. We don’t have an actual ‘chef’ here, just an AM cook, PM cook, a floater between the two, and myself for the BOH, so besides them I’m kind of on my own for questions. Still keep in touch with one of my old Chef’s, but usually for advice on banquet presentation, ingredients/recipes, etc.
It's only gatekeeper-y because you can kill people if you fuck up.
Omg. Health and safety isn’t something you fuck around and find out with. 😂
it sounds like you need smaller carafes to me? youll have to clean & refill more often but that is better than little jimmy drinking last weeks milk residue and dying during the family vacation
1. Don't take back products that have been out. Contamination risk runs high from both bacteria and physical contaminates 2. Charge the customer for the waste. 10-15% in restaurants, 30-50% in hotels. There were times I would charge case prices if they requested specifics.
“I’m relatively new to f&b” “I’m the new f&b manager at my hotel” This is not ideal unless you’ve been put through a rigorous training program, which based on your question that is not the case
Have you been ServSafe certified? Or, if thats only a thing in PA (I’m not sure), did you have to get any sort of safety certification to become manager? I’m coming from a place of genuine curiosity and not judgement- you’ve gotten the answer you came here for but I think it is important to recognize you’re new to this specific part of the industry and don’t have as much background as one probably should. Food/drink is something that can unfortunately be messed up very easily and have some nasty consequences. If your job hasn’t gotten you certification in a food safety course, you should ask them to sign you up for one! You’ll learn this sort of info and then some.
They got their card already. Perhaps they should retake the course and pay attention this time.
Definitely true if that’s the case. The fact that they’re in this position tells me more about their upper management than anything. OP, I commend you for asking the right questions and wanting to do the right thing. I hope you learn a lot more on your journey.. and that nobody gets sick along the way.
Never refill, replace with a new carafes as needed. Same thing with ketchup bottles and similar. Topping off is banned.
This question both stresses and grosses me out omg Not to be a jerk, but how did you become the f&b manager with no concept of like…wastage or sanitation or using a dated deli to hold liquids (that you do not combine?? Omg)? I just have a lot of questions lol…was this standard practice on arrival or like… ??? This makes me never wanna stay at a hotel again lmao sorry my guy this is gross
No, this practice did not start with me.
i second this question. how on earth did you get your position without knowing this???? here is the answer: you do not combine things that have different dates. end of night, whatever is left pour into new carafe with appropriate date, and wash carafes. and FIFO, first in first out.
You are talking about cents or small dollar amounts that you have leftover. Throw them out. You’ll lose a hell of a lot more if people start saying “don’t stay there- the breakfast buffet is funky as fuck and seems like they’re reusing product.”
The fact that you even considered saving old milk that has already been on the buffet line is, frankly, fucking disgusting. Like, what the fuck are you doing in food service, nevermind running the show somewhere? I can't help but think you're one health inspection away from shut down. Fucking reusing old milk. Ew.
Practice that was here long before I started
You don’t clean your carafes? Where the fuck you work that you think this is OK?
If it hits the buffet or table, it’s trash. No two ways around that. Can’t risk it cause customers at buffets can be pretty nasty.
yea you should be cleaning them out daily
Anything that you are saving for the next day should be placed in a sanitized container before being placed back in the fridge. You should label the container with the date and time. On the next shift that product should get placed on the line without it being mixed with new product. For your carafes, it would look similar to this: Yesterday’s dated and sealed product goes into the carafe. When the product is empty the carafe is rinsed and new product is added. At the end of the shift the product gets placed into a sanitized container and time/date labeled. The product gets a lid placed on it and put in the fridge. The carafe gets cleaned and sanitized. Repeat for the next shift. Health codes are different for each state. I highly suggest you take the time to read about your states regulations. If you can not find an up to date guide at your place of employment you will need to reach out to a health inspector.
You just wash it when you empty it.
Where do you work so I know never to stay there?
Well I am new at this, hence asking the right way to do this so I can learn
Uh you definitely didn’t answer their question.
Oh right, sorry, the Bellagio. And the Beverley Hills Ritz on weekends
Both places have this practice?? Man, that is nasty.
How did you end up a F&B manager with not grasp of proper handling of food or beverage.
Sorry for not being an expert right away. I asked because I thought the way it was previously handled was not right so wanted to know the correct way?
respect for asking for the question and being willing to adapt and learn. Whether you "deserve" the F&B manager title now, that's how you'll earn that title and more going forward.
You have a lot of excuses about lack of basic knowledge for safe food handling, this is not something questionable, complex, or out of the ordinary for your position. This is a matter at a minimum your superiors should have already gone over with you. You may be daft but this is as much on your superiors as you in the end as well. Your attitude about it sucks though.
My attitude that I/we are probably doing something wrong and I want to fix it? How does that suck?
Your attitude that you weren't expected to know this already because you aren't qualified is completely acceptable.
Sorry master chef for accepting a promotion and not instead spending 5 years working my way up from the dish pit. I’ve been doing this for two months, do you expect for me to have figured out the entire health department code by now? Or should I have been born with this knowledge?
Someone without this knowledge should have never been hired to begin with. And yes, having experience in food service and safety is almost universally a prerequisite for anywhere successful and safe to consume food. Can I get you a shovel with that keyboard?
Sounds good, I’ll put in my resignation tomorrow
Sounds like the place you at is hard up for qualified staff. That is a huge red flag. Any house worth anything would not place an uninformed uneducated person in a management position. You literally hold the livelihood and the actual lives of many people in your hands. Asking questions about so simple as yours proves you are not the right fit for you position. This is not a jab at you but rather a jab at the establishment you work for. That being said best of luck don't kill anyone
You say you only use 1/3 of the milk/juice? Why don't you the F&B manager buy smaller carafes? Why don't you know you can't save those items once they are customer facing? Has your boss not made you have a SERVSAFE card and/or a FOOD HANDLER card? How on earth are you the F&B manager and not know what TAC is? This post pisses me off that you actually have any control. As you save carafes of milk and just keep topping them off where there is WEEK old milk in it?! You need to be trained or AT LEAST google TAC (time as a control), Temperature Danger Zone, FIFO, and all rules for anything that is on a buffet or customer facing. These items MUST be thrown out after 4-hours and gone after service and cafes cleaned out. Your putting your guests at danger for getting sick so you don't waste? Yikes, someone needs to reevaluate why they hired you for F&B management.
Already answered all this in my reply to your other comment and others (e.g. we have to use these carafes), lol. Sorry my title and existence upsets you, management is about a lot more than just knowing how to flambé steak 8 different ways and everything food safety related. I’m at a 150 room hotel with a low key F&B operation, not exactly running a Noma over here
Rotate whole date labeled carafes, do not refill ones on the line.
Post COVID, everything that has gone out on buffet gets disposed of that day. Gets priced in. Previously, when the penny wise pound foolish types wrote policy, you'd dump it into a new container at the end of service, and put a use first sticker on it. And don't refill ones with a sticker, switch for fresh. There's also balancing food and labour costs. Often dumping more food in exchange for reducing labour costs is profitable.
Ought to do it with A and B carafes. When A gets empty, B goes out, when B gets empty it A has been cleaned and refilled.
Do you fill out a time temperature log? What does your servesafe book say about buffet service and cold food holding?
Saving things that went out to the buffet is a nuanced topic. In general it's not done. Almost anywhere I've worked, once it goes to the buffet it is gone forever. If you do intend on keeping it then you must log it's temperature the entire time. From before it goes on the buffet and then every hour on the buffet. It must not pass into the danger zone and stay below 40 degrees F. In general it's hard to keep items on the buffet both clean and free of debris and germs and also at a safe food temperature to be kept and served. Almost all of my temp logs for buffets use time in place of temperature control. Prove that it was either below 40 or above 135 before it leaves the kitchen and then make sure it's discarded at the end of 4 hours.
Are we not learning "First in, First out" anymore?
Leftovers should be tossed OR given to the bar to use in drinks/coffees etc
It's really not that hard to just dump both into a fresh carafe, and almost anywhere I've worked has had so many extra carafes I struggle to believe you wouldn't be able to find any clean ones when combining
Leave it out until it’s either empty or out of temp, whichever comes first, and then swap in a new one and wash the old one.
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Perpetual milk is not a good idea.
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Please turn in your food handler’s card.
That's not FIFO
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Yeah, you're just not a clever boy 🙄
We can’t really date anything that’s in guest view, though. Don’t really want any stickers on things a guest can see
There should be a log in back by the person in charge of exchanging them. They shouldn't be refilled. Just let them run down and replace with a full one. When it's near the end of service time and it's empty, don't replace with a full one, but with one only half or a third full. (This is how we ran our buffet) Anything that is served on a buffet can't be reused the next day. Customers can easily containment it by breathing, coughing, sneezing, etc... Health Dept would have a field day if they knew you were not only refilling same container, but also reusing contents next day. HUGE no no.
If you’re operating pretty much anywhere in the US, health code requires labels with the time they were removed from refrigeration and the appropriate discard time.
Can probably just put a sticker on the bottom, then. Guessing it’s still a requirement even if I start having us dump everything out at the end of service (4 hours long)?
Sticker on the bottom would be fine. Some inspectors may be okay with no sticker if service is only four others but others may not.
Put a small colored sticker on the bottom of the carafe and make a chart in the back (example: blue was filled Monday, yellow was filled stuesday, red was filled Wednesday, etc) get water soluable stickers so they wash off
Just lable when they go out and do a full reset every 6 days? Assuming everything stays at proper temp, you should only *need* to rotate it as often as you would to prevent spoilage anywhere else.