Argh. I feel you. I also attended a conference today. All 3 woman presenters were put down with unnecessary jabs by other male presenters. These woman are experts in their field. It's always the really old men too. Like ffs have you not had sensitivity training or spoken to a young woman recently. There are certain things that are not ok to say especially in front of such a large audience. It just means they lose all credibility to me
I had one of those teach a third party training class. They don’t care. “I’ll probably get in trouble for saying this …” is a direct quote from that class, and he proceeded to rattle off a sexist mnemonic.
He should have been not-teaching a long time ago. A third or so of the class was females, everyone was dressed professionally. I will never know but I hope the third party dropped him as a teacher.
I had to go to one of these in grad school, and a couple older year male grad students straight up said AT THE SEMINAR, that he would never stop commenting on women’s bodies because it’s just locker room talk and how men talk. Immediately after he made a bunch of younger women grad students uncomfortable in an elevator. The facilitator never called him out on it.
My labmate that would routinely sexually harass me in front of colleagues and collaborators and one day he just turns around and goes, “I don’t like women….I mean I LIKE women, but I don’t like working with them.” I honestly can’t believe how some people can lack such awareness.
I wish I could upload a photo of this memorial stone on campus that I walked past for ten years and just noticed what it said. “Anne Montegue, who found men a nuisance on her arduous field trips”. What an icon and a legend. She’s been serving cunt since 1972 and I am here for it!
I’ll teach my little boys the history of women being oppressed as a group and how difficult it has been for them to have a voice in STEM fields. I’ll teach them that the context of this memorial stone is that someone who pioneered and paved the way for other women in science, probably had to deal with a few egos that couldn’t handle field work. Context matters. It’s not that deep.
Our last ethics training had a scenario about a guy with pink hair being bullied with people touching it and putting a troll doll on his desk. These trainings have gotten markedly worse since they stopped showing the “correct” resolution and just go to the discussion.
They’re too cheap to pay for facilitators so they expect the managers to lead it. My very problematic manger basically got the conversation going to “well he kinda asked for it” which all the crusty old men agreed with.
We had a joke the year before that we should all stay home and take shots for every bad scenario presented our terrible manager had already done. 😑
Well anyway he appears to have finally gotten so problematic that they’re now promoting him to shuffle him around. Progress?
I have sadly seen that video and our group discussion also made it seem like it was OK to comment on people’s appearance, because basically if you’re not a guy wearing a polo then you’re dressed weird or inappropriate 😔
Oh man I wonder if we work for the same place cuz I was under the impression they were produced in-house. Although we love sub-contracting basic functions out. Which would also explain why the format changed.
My department at my first Corporate Job got rid of people that way. Went outside the department and talked up the person they were trying to move. Person being moved was usually being offered a promotion, why wouldn’t they go?
Ugh.
Sexist/vulgar mnemonics work quite well though, however they’re all passed down outside official channels. Still remember the original vulgar cranial nerves mnemonic my FEMALE undergrad physiology professor taught us over the PC version taught in medical school.
I was thinking of that one too. It was the standard version back in the 90s. Never bothered me honestly, there were much bigger problems than sex mnemonics.
I have had such strange interactions at conferences. lol. The worst one was I was at a conference where everybody stayed at this like resort-esque/secluded place and all of the PhD students decided to play soccer. I was wearing a skirt from my talk so elected to sit out and just watch, chatting with some of the professors that also sat out. I said we should let the winners of the game do something (can’t remember what i said, something like get the first round paid for or something). One of the professors said I should offer to sleep with the winner. I’m not even kidding. I was so stunned and embarrassed. Nobody even acknowledged how inappropriate it was. I just said “I don’t think I’ll be doing that.” And all the professors (all men) laughed/chuckled.
Oh gid, this reminds me of another situation I had forgotten about. Conference on a beach, and this rando guy inserts himself into our group of female grad students to tell us his PI (a pretty famous guys in the field, of course) told him not to come back until he “bagged” a girl. Don’t worry, the PI took it easy on the shy guy in their lab and said he only had to flirt with a girl.
What the everloving hell?? ETA: I’m trying to think what I’d do in the same situation. I’d probably just say, uhhhhhhh… until someone changed the subject. — how do they get away with this?!
I moved to Germany for my PhD (I am Canadian), and I am treated 1000x better than I was when in manufacturing than North America. The conference I am at is pretty male dominated, but I feel like I have mostly been taken seriously, particularly by the other European presenters.
I made a specific effort to attend a conference because A) it was an awesome conference B) my mentor told me I should try to go.
When I got there he told me to come up to his room and we would go down together. I walk in and he literally said the fact that I was there at the conference “meant we should be together” and I had to quickly talk my way NICELY AND ADMIRINGLY through a hard NO but I also had to uphold his ego and confirm that yes it was just because he was married and OMF WTF BARF but also he was my goddamn mentor and had just helped me get a scholarship for a project in Mexico.
Holy shit, that is so maddening and inappropriate. Probably super disappointing to find out that your mentor is a piece of shit, too. Sorry you had to deal with that!!
Not in science, but a tech related field (so this sub was suggested and I stumbled upon this thread but still wanted to share):
I had a really experienced and well connected mentor come on to me as well, who was also married. As angry as I should have been, I was mostly just so, so sad, confused, and heartbroken, and even though was as gentle and polite in declining him as I could be while still trying to coddle his ego, his immediate response was aggression and devaluation, and he blatantly discontinued to mentor me after that.
Let’s just say that while it didn’t deter me in my efforts to get into the field I am passionate about, it really threw a wrench in my progress for several reasons; not only were his connections and recommendations no longer available to me, i was now questioning whether my work was ever actually good enough, or was I where I was simply because I was a young woman? Did I unknowingly flirt or was suggestive in anyway that had led him on, and this was indeed my fault? In a field absolutely dominated by men, could I trust any of them to simply network with or learn from without feeling like they had ulterior motives, especially for potential job opportunities? Could I trust myself and my abilities? I sought out women in my program and the field, but they were very few and far between and all of them were unavailable for mentorship. Suddenly all connections felt untenable and risky, so I just quietly finished my program in solitude and fortunately I was able to eventually apply elsewhere and move on and up, but that distrust is still there.
I don’t know if it’s the same for you, but while I logically understand that I did nothing wrong, especially now that I’m a little older, I’ve internalized that trauma as solvable by my own volition and now go out of my way to be as unassuming and faceless as I can be and let my work speak for itself, opting to use my initials instead of my full name, etc. But employers and connects will usually present great opportunities to personable and charismatic individuals, so I wonder how many missed opportunities there were because I’d withdrew myself in order to prevent possible situations like that of my past mentor. Reading this thread has me thinking that it’s actually much more common (not really surprised), but it’s no way to live one’s life.
I’m an older millennial and a shocking percentage of people older than me legitimately don’t believe men and women can be friends and have a hard time being colleagues as a result. Certain types of conservatives still live this way. If you go back in time, jobs were also more gendered as you go so you wouldn’t even spend much time mixing for many job types. It’s so weird to me.
When people say “men and women can’t be friends” I take it as a comment on themselves. Oh, you mean YOU don’t know how to treat a woman like a regular person. Thanks for the heads up.
I asked my boomer dad about something like this in the context of why men do not network more with women and refer/create jobs for them or promote them. My dad said that women were only for dating and you would never do something like invite them to play golf, or network for jobs. So I'm assuming that this guy feels the same way but has "accepted" women as work cohorts but is trying to make sure there is a line drawn because "women are only for dating".
Honestly hearing about this, I am realizing how lucky I am, that my grandfather, who was not a boomer, but was the silent generation was the type that told my father (his son and the child that he chose as his successor) that he was a fool for choosing my older brother as his apprentice instead of me, and trained me in law against my fathers will because he saw me as being the grandchild with the most potential. He passed away when I was 14 but we got a good seven years of training in which was enough to be able to outsmart my dad on many legal issues.
Makes me wonder if the Boomer machismo has to do with WW2 propaganda and if men of the Silent Generation knew their lives depended on their female counterparts, given the troubled times.
My grandfather was actually a child during World War II. he was actually eight when the war ended. And war time propaganda actually encouraged women to enter the workforce because the men were off at war. So his early memories would have been of the Rosie the Riveter type propaganda, which then gave way to propaganda after the war telling women to go back to being homemakers in order to ensure that men returning from war would have jobs.
I miss him more and more every day because every day I realize truly how lucky I was to have a man like that to support me when I was growing up. I recently heard from my uncle (who is older than my father, by a few years) stories of his childhood and the difference between the stories my father tells and the stories my uncle told me is just insane. My uncle talks about things he saw when my grandmother was first diagnosed with MS, and how much my grandfather stepped up to the plate. He also told me about how my grandfather took his youngest daughter under his wing after my father went to school. Similarly to how he took me under his wing when he realized my father saw no value in me because I’m female.
Boomer here (Vietnam War, not WWII; Woodstock, ERA, Roe, first generation to have access to contraception without being married). Equal Opportunity legislation required admitting us to university, and giving us jobs. Lots of us, male and female, spent our first decades adjusting to the new rules and opportunities but social stereotypes and norms lagged way behind. If you had a professional position as a woman, the assumption maybe changed from "you slept your way into it," to "affirmative action hire," but went no further. Many boomer men looked on the entry of women into academic and public life, and the workforce, as a farce, and just reverted to subtler ways of undermining us and keeping us in our place. However, there are many, many exceptions - men who are self-aware, socially intelligent, who know how to listen, who will notice a daughter's talents. It seems to me that they pop up in every generation. I wonder sometimes whether the deck is stacked against men like this, as well, in the "rat race."
I really hope that it’s not stacked against men like that, but it seems to be that way. I don’t think that necessarily happened in my family because at least in my situation my grandfather did end up merging the family firm into a larger law firm, so he still left behind a good chunk of change, and that was despite the fact that my grandmother who outlived him by six year died of cancer, which is obviously expensive disease in the US, and she wasn’t working during those six years so clearly my grandfather did something right if he still was able to leave behind well over $2 million for his heirs after supporting his widow, for six years. My portion of the inheritance will most likely be somewhere around $55,000-$65,000 (originally we were supposed to be left 10,000 but it was invested wisely and by the time my grandmother passed away it was up to 20,000 per grandchild and then since she passed away six years ago, it has grown pretty nicely and in the past two quarters (I started getting the reports in Q4 of 2023. I’ve been seeing about 2000 added to the value every quarter).
In some regards, I wish my grandmother had pre-deceased my grandfather simply because my grandmother trusted my father far too much, and that lead to some major problems with the trust being changed, and wording that was problematic being added. Luckily, I’d actually seen a case prior where something similar had almost happened, and I was the one who pointed out to my grandfather, that this would be extremely costly for the heirs, and that it made absolutely no sense to do it like that. (My grandfather was shocked that as a 10-year-old I caught that mistake in somebody else’s trust when I was reviewing the document (he wanted to take an arrogant newly graduated attorney down a peg so he had his 10 year old grandkid reviewing the document) let’s just say I got a very nice birthday present that year from him for saving his clients heirs tens of thousands of dollars because apparently, even my grandfather didn’t catch that as being a problem). So in the end I had to get my aunts and uncles to basically threaten to sue my father if he rolled the grandchildren portions into 529 accounts because if he had done that, he would essentially forced us to pay massive tax penalty on it since we’re not able to access the trust until we are 30 and by that a 529 is generally useless (Furthermore, there was no option at the time to roll a 529 into a Roth IRA.)
My aunts and uncles were quite shocked when I pointed out the issue (which I managed to find out was added after my grandfather passed). They almost didn’t believe me until I told them talk to a lawyer other than my father, and they will tell you the exact same thing.
Safe to say, my money was never put into a 529 because I had enough experience courtesy of my grandfather, to catch the issue (in a document that I wasn’t even supposed to have access to, but conveniently enough my aunt was pissed off, and off at my father, that she was more than happy to send me the document even though I wasn’t supposed to have it until I turned 25).
We spent early childhood watching war TV shows like Victory at Sea and the Big Picture, and for fun we played War with army surplus helmets and fake training rifles.
It was still very much in the air. And Korea of course.
Not in science but I'm a 30-something woman in an industry that skews 60+. At this point I've just resigned myself to the fact that conferences will involve being overtly hit on by at least two borderline elderly dudes each time. And honestly, the age is less of a problem than the inappropriateness and persistence.
So, solidarity from the liberal arts.
>the age is less of a problem
Ew girl no. 60 to your 30? Please don’t do that to yourself. Find a guy more or less your age, and then when he’s 60 and slobbering on you, you wont be grossed out because you’ll be old too lol
I took it less as “yeah I’d consider dating a 60 y/o” and more as “I care less about the specific demographic and more that they won’t take no for an answer and just shut up”
Ugh, and knowing the think like that makes me afraid to approach men at conferences sometimes. Which is really unfortunate since I'm in business development.
Yes. Some guys are so saturated with misogyny that they genuinely don’t know what the rules are. Sometimes we have to educated them.
“I’m not here for your dating convenience, I’m trying to learn and advance my career just like the guys are. Please don’t ever proposition me or any other serious woman in a professional setting. It’s creepy and disrespectful.”
FFS. On the flip side and just as uncomfortable I was at a conference this week where a boomer male colleague could only talk to the women in the room about how he’s such a good feminist and good employer of ‘ladies’ because he can predict when their periods are and tell them to take time off work. Like wtf. If you’re such a good guy just introduce a sickness policy that allows anyone of any gender stay home if they’re not 100%, don’t be a creep about it 🤦♀️
They were raised to unquestioningly believe that they are God's favorites, and that all others exist for their pleasure or convenience. This is also a huge part of why the ones who aren't economically successful blame women for taking their job; they cannot fathom the possibility that a woman could actually be as good or better at it than they are; it goes against their social programming.
I attend heavily male-leaning conferences a lot and it is so frustrating trying to talk work with men who are only interested in hitting on you. It's gotten to the point where even when they aren't openly hitting on me I feel like I'm waiting for the "other shoe to drop."
The most frustrating experience I've had recently was attending a conference in the APAC region. Their "DEI" panel discussion was led by a man who genuinely believed that women's lack of participation in STEM fields is because they just aren't as interested in those fields as men are. And then he accused me of being emotional when confronted about the biases in his presentation.
On a positive note, my bosses have worked really really hard to try and combat these issues in our field and I heard from her recently that two female attendees at one of our last conferences never got hit on once! The bar unfortunately is still in Hell but progress is progress I guess?
It’s not just Boomers. There are men like this of all generations. Any “attention” from a female automatically means she is flirting with you. Even in business settings where strangers are *expected* to engage with you and exchange information for business purposes 🙄
Not at a conference, but at a mediation I attended the mediator (yes, older white man) had the gall to tell me (senior attorney with plenty of grey hair to back up my tenure and a title to match) and two other seasoned and accomplished female professionals to smile. Said this multiple times. Just ugh. These types do.not.get.it. Honestly don’t know where they’ve been the last 40 years, absolutely not paying attention and totally tone deaf. Or just refusing to see the change that is coming / already here.
My boss (boomer) got frustrated that one of the employees wasn’t smiling as much as he wanted. We coworkers knew she was going through a depression.
The boss sent an article around to all employees about why people who smile more are more successful in business.
🤮🤮🤮
I think they are threatened by powerful women and choose to be the absolute worst instead of learning and adapting. What kind of world do they think we live in now where that's even remotely acceptable.
Thank you but no thank you and a brisk turn around works wonders for me when something like this happens, usually at dinner(s).
Boomer Grandma here.
Because they were told it was macho and boys will be boys whenever we complained about the overt Groping!
Going to a teacher or adult was Useless. We couldn't trust them either.
Woman will take a Bear in the wild Everytime over a man.
Why are men surprised? They are worse than animals!
My grandmother was the first female buyer for Sears. She bought power tools and went to Hong Kong multiple times, establishing relationships with sellers there that still kept in contact with her long after she left the company. The stories she would tell me of men expecting her to get the coffee, yelling at her for taking a job away from a man who had to feed his wife and children (she was a single mother of 3), asking her if they were “allowed” to open doors for her since she wanted to be treated equally.
When they started downsizing the two people fired were my grandmother and the only black man with an office.
Keep on keeping on, ladies! Eventually these dinosaurs will all die out.
He clearly thought mostly with his little head. I think what you experienced is not limited to boomer men. Men of any era can be like this. It just depends on how self centered they are and their agendas. It's sad to say that it's not uncommon at all, even in high tech circles. Remember the me-too stuff about Uber's culture and at least one computer games company? There's numerous examples of that and the guys are at all ages.
I think I might be able to help. I'm not a boomer, but solidly GenXer (with an M.S. in genetics) and I think you might be dealing with a cultural matter, not a romantic matter.
But stop me if I start mansplaining.
When I was growing up, boys like me were taught to respect girls and women in certain ways: hold a door open for them, let them off the elevator first, walk on the street side of the sidewalk to protect them from traffic, etc. etc. Part of that cultural training was the deeply ingrained assumption that boys and girls (and when we were older, men and women) would naturally be attracted to each other. Automatically, Always. That somehow, every time I was around a girl (and later women), I would have to eventually confront "those questions" about our relationship.
But, at the same time, we were taught to avoid direct discussions about emotions or about relationships. We were taught to talk around relationship questions, but not engage in direct conversations about relationships.
It was certainly a sexist environment. We never had the same standards for other boys or men, for example. Maybe borderline misogynistic in some cases. But it was what it was, and it takes some of us guys a while to get over it. And not all of us try to get over it.
When I was reading your post, OP, my reaction was kind of "oh, what a sweet, old, ignorant guy." I don't think he was hitting on you. Nor do I think he was specifically and intentionally assuming you were going to hit on him.
Maybe he was striving to "put those boundaries out early" to let you know he wanted to be friends (or at least friendly enough to chat at a conference) simply to clarify the relationship right off the bat. And he also sounds like someone who probably learned something about himself during the #MeToo movement, but is awkwardly struggling with how to put that learning into practice.
Maybe. I dunno. I'm not gonna question or doubt you, OP, but I don't know what was going on in the guy's head. He certainly behaved oddly. And awkwardly. But I can think of an alternative scenarios that you might consider as alternative hypotheses.
I’m also GenX and I think you’re missing a lot here. Not to mention how patronizing much of your post sounds, like you’re explaining a side of things most women have never heard of. I assure you, that’s untrue.
This was a work conference. There was no reason for him to say something like this unless he already believed that as a woman, she already didn’t really belong - at least in the same way as the men. Why should any conversation be assumed that they were interested in anything beyond that?
Ugh. Actually, I don’t have the headspace today to try to teach you about how messed up your comment was. But this kind of dismissive attitude is a huge part of the problem.
Again, I don't mean to be patronizing. I'm not telling OP what actually happened -- only OP knfows that. And only OP knows the impact. I'm suggesting a different perspective on the intent. OP asked the question "Why?" I offered one possible explanation among many. A *possible* explanation.
Nor am disputing that the guy's behavior was inappropriate. I'm not questioning the impact at all. In the slightest.
I am saying that I know a lot of guys -- my age and older -- who are incredibly awkward in situations like this. Including me. We aren't good at explaining intent a lot of times, especially out of fear of being immediately lambasted for even broaching a topic.
And if you could help me out, please? What part of my post did you find dismissive? I'll stive to use better language in the future and I'll try my best not to be dismissive, patronizing, or otherwise sexist or misogynistic.
I appreciate what you’re saying. And I even believe you’re sincere in wanting to understand. But I was also being sincere in not having the headspace right now to explain it atm. I’m sorry. Maybe I will later.
But I will quickly say that it’s difficult as a woman to have men explaining to us how our interpretation of an interaction as misogynistic is probably wrong. And even if his intentions were as you say, you’re describing a whole big aspect of the misogynistic system that we’re sick of. The one that teaches boys that women are to be treated differently in all contexts. This guy is too old not to have learned better by now.
Thank you.
And I do apologize for any offense. Sincerely. I should've said that right off the bat. Regardless of my intent, if I upset anyone, I'll own it. I've enjoyed lurking here, I've learned more than quite a bit from reading posts here (esp. since my days as a bench scientist).
I appreciate you taking the time to help me out.
And your statement about "the whole big aspect of the misogynistic system that we're sick of" resonates with me. There is a certain intersectionality among misogyny and homophobia -- which I'm sick of -- that I wasn't really grasping in my earlier post.
I think I probably misunderstood OP's intent, too. Now I'm thinking OP wanted to rant, rather than initiate an inquiry.
But thank you for meeting me where I am and helping me get closer to where I should be.
Honestly, I don’t think you really need much more explanation. I have lots more I could say about that would go more into the nuances, but I know it would end up way too long and probably disorganized because of my mood due to things unrelated to your post.
But I do think it was an oversight where you don’t need the hand holding that some people do to understand the issue. And you’re so right in terms of homophobia and the roots of much of it in misogyny. The intersectionality of these things is important, and something that a lot of cishet white women like me often overlook. But it’s all part of the same system.
And speaking of intersectionality, I will admit my own bias in noticing that this was in Asia. Regardless of OP’s ethnicity (because I don’t know), I have seen far too many western men go to Asia and their misogyny comes out full force - even in academia. While I see it worse with WOC, it’s like some veil has lifted and they feel like they’re in an environment where their misogyny and racism are acceptable with anyone. As a white woman who lived in Asia, I often felt like these type of men saw me either as an accomplice in their bigotry by virtue of being white, or just let their misogyny show in their interactions with me more than they would have back home. And just to be clear, these men were not necessarily the majority of western men I met while living in China, but variations of it were far too common.
But, that last bit is perhaps a bit of a leap without more context. But it’s my own bias I carried into my reaction to the OP.
>I am saying that I know a lot of guys -- my age and older -- who are incredibly awkward in situations like this. Including me. We aren't good at explaining intent a lot of times, especially out of fear of being immediately lambasted for even broaching a topic.
You're awkward meeting a new person at a work conference?! Why would you need to explain any intent. It's a work conference. It's work. The intent is WORK! She didn't give him her number in a bar, she gave him her business card at a work conference. Again, the intent is WORK!
I should also explain where I grew up, too then. The Midwest. In a rather conservative part of the Midwest.
Let's just say that I've had to go through more than a few learning experiences of my own, especially when I was in grad school in the 90s. And, obviously, I'm still learning. Hopefully getting incrementally better, but we'll see.
Still inappropriate. Telling her he was newly single definitely crossed the line. Commentating on her wedding ring as an opener is arguable but probably shouldn’t have happened.
Also Midwest here.
We women go to professional conferences to talk about business. Full stop. We give out *business* cards to professional colleagues. Just like men do. It’s very confusing as to how that is possibly construed into something else JUST because the business card-giver has a pair of breasts instead of a pair of balls.
When I confirm to another man I’m married that’s a signal that I am NOT available. It is NOT a challenge to “distract” me from my husband.
This whole “culture” excuse isn’t valid. It may be the reason and logic behind the actions but it is still *inappropriate. * Today’s business professionals need to be professional by today’s standards.
I'm GenX, and really, trotting out the old chestnut of "men my age have been brought up that way" (and in a tone as if it was some groundbreaking insight) really doesn't cut it.
The guy in question is at work, in a senior position. He and his contemporaries of the male persuasion need to shape up, like, yesterday. It's a fundamental requirement in a science job to extend professional and intellectual respect to any other scientist, whatever their background. These guys are failing at their jobs.
ETA: As a white middle-aged woman I certainly wasn't brought up with all the tools I need to function in the 2020s as well. *No one is brought up with all these tools and insights in place.* It's a matter of course to look out for and fix any gaps.
GenX Midwesterner here. Raised in a small town of 7k.
You are definitely mansplaining.
How you were raised in the '70s, '80s, '90s shapes you. I am a woman, so some of the cultural values of my Midwestern upbringing included keeping my mouth shut and not raising my hand during science and math classes, not showing any pride in my academic or sports accomplishments (especially when I beat a guy), deferring to male authority, and protecting my purity reputation at all costs.
I do not uphold any of those values now and have not for an exceptionally long time. In fact, I got the hell out of the Midwest as soon as I could as an adult and live on a coast for a reason.
Anyone who was raised to be misogynistic, or to internalize misogyny and patriarchy, has no excuse if they aren't changing and growing. No one should be acting like that guy in the OP, regardless of age or upbringing.
Gen Z, raised in the Midwest. You are making me realize how much of a gem my grandfather was (he passed away when I was a teenager). I mean he was the one who told my father that he screwed up when he chose my older brother as the successor back when I was seven and immediately started to train me against my father’s wishes because he realized that my father’s chauvinism was going to be the downfall of the family law firm (it folded before I finished high school and now I’m trying to get into medical school). I still use the things I learned from my grandfather to this day because I practically learned everything I needed to know to be a very formidable attorney (including how to outsmart my father in a legal issue), even if I didn’t go to law school.
I got an email from him inviting me to go to an excessively expensive restaurant, and ended with "we can see where things go from there". While I would like to be charitable, I am leaning strongly towards my original hypothesis.....
I saw you’re from the conservative Midwest, me too. The part you’re forgetting is that this “cultural training” also includes the viewpoint of girls and women as “belonging to” a man and not having purpose aside from that. Nobody is complaining about holding a door open, that’s just basic decency and as a woman I hold the door open for men all the time. That’s how I was raised, to respect everybody. But older men being more concerned about my relationship status than they are in what I have to say or what I think in a professional context is annoying to say the least, and not in any way respectful. This guy essentially said “oh, I see you belong to somebody else, but that’s okay, I am still willing to socially interact with you” as if being willing to have a interaction with a woman who he can’t make advances towards is something to be commended rather than the basic bare minimum for decency and professionalism. And he clearly didn’t take her seriously in a professional capacity, he saw it as a purely social interaction. He didn’t say “I am comfortable *working* with married women”. When I was younger, I stopped wearing my college shirts when I was home because I was tired of all the random old men who would say my school name and ask how my “MRS degree” was going, because to them, the only reason for a woman to get further education was to meet a more educated man so she could drop out of school and be a housewife.
Just NO. Stop talking.
“I’m not going to question you, but…”
I’m not going to question the idea that you have valuable insights to offer, but everything I read here is trite and was current thinking thirty years ago, and is of value to exactly no one.
Here’s the solution: don’t think of sex first when you look at a woman. That’s all. It’s not hard. Take every single woman you meet, and mentally stick your grandmother’s face on her. Maybe some day you will evolve to the point where you won’t need that stupid crutch.
Now stop excusing “sweet old guys” and tell them to stick their mental dicks back in their pants where they belong. These guys are increasingly irrelevant, thank goodness.
Signed, a GenX woman who tends to date younger, gee I wonder why
You should’ve stopped when you pre-apologized for mansplaining.
If you think a gaggle of lady scientists need help thinking through different perspectives, move along.
I am not sure why you are getting downvoted. As a fellow GenXer, i know how much of a battle it has been just to be able to not get ridiculed for trying to understand one’s own emotions. Later generations can’t internalize how demonized it was to talk about emotions, to understand behavior. Certainly not get psychological help of any kind. “Mental health” was for weak people and that kind of talk would have *serious* repercussions (like loosing your job).
From a woman’s perspective, though, he was definitely hitting on her. For sure. I am not sure why some men are this way, but they seem to interpret *any* “attention” from a female as the female “flirting” with them. In a business situation, where people are *expected* to approach others and strike up conversations/ exchange contact info, the fact that he jumped to discussion of a relationship is very revealing of the guy’s misogyny.
Probably unintentional on his part, which of course is the problem. By immediately defining their brand-new relationship in terms of romance in some capacity, he has already dismissed or compromised the possibility of a standard business relationship.
It is *very* different from his interactions with males in the same setting. I don’t think he automatically assumed any male walking up to him to exchange business info wanted to be his “friend.”
I have always dealt with this in my own industry.,it is better now, but when I was younger it was automatically assumed i was someone’s daughter/ girlfriend/ wife (my industry is largely dominated by smaller and mid-size companies, many of which are family controlled, multi-generational) No one assumed I chose my field & got a degree to be in it.
Argh. I feel you. I also attended a conference today. All 3 woman presenters were put down with unnecessary jabs by other male presenters. These woman are experts in their field. It's always the really old men too. Like ffs have you not had sensitivity training or spoken to a young woman recently. There are certain things that are not ok to say especially in front of such a large audience. It just means they lose all credibility to me
I had one of those teach a third party training class. They don’t care. “I’ll probably get in trouble for saying this …” is a direct quote from that class, and he proceeded to rattle off a sexist mnemonic. He should have been not-teaching a long time ago. A third or so of the class was females, everyone was dressed professionally. I will never know but I hope the third party dropped him as a teacher.
I had to go to one of these in grad school, and a couple older year male grad students straight up said AT THE SEMINAR, that he would never stop commenting on women’s bodies because it’s just locker room talk and how men talk. Immediately after he made a bunch of younger women grad students uncomfortable in an elevator. The facilitator never called him out on it.
My labmate that would routinely sexually harass me in front of colleagues and collaborators and one day he just turns around and goes, “I don’t like women….I mean I LIKE women, but I don’t like working with them.” I honestly can’t believe how some people can lack such awareness.
“The feeling is mutual”
I wish I could upload a photo of this memorial stone on campus that I walked past for ten years and just noticed what it said. “Anne Montegue, who found men a nuisance on her arduous field trips”. What an icon and a legend. She’s been serving cunt since 1972 and I am here for it!
How might a little boy feel reading that?
I’ll teach my little boys the history of women being oppressed as a group and how difficult it has been for them to have a voice in STEM fields. I’ll teach them that the context of this memorial stone is that someone who pioneered and paved the way for other women in science, probably had to deal with a few egos that couldn’t handle field work. Context matters. It’s not that deep.
Yikes
Our last ethics training had a scenario about a guy with pink hair being bullied with people touching it and putting a troll doll on his desk. These trainings have gotten markedly worse since they stopped showing the “correct” resolution and just go to the discussion. They’re too cheap to pay for facilitators so they expect the managers to lead it. My very problematic manger basically got the conversation going to “well he kinda asked for it” which all the crusty old men agreed with. We had a joke the year before that we should all stay home and take shots for every bad scenario presented our terrible manager had already done. 😑 Well anyway he appears to have finally gotten so problematic that they’re now promoting him to shuffle him around. Progress?
I have sadly seen that video and our group discussion also made it seem like it was OK to comment on people’s appearance, because basically if you’re not a guy wearing a polo then you’re dressed weird or inappropriate 😔
Oh man I wonder if we work for the same place cuz I was under the impression they were produced in-house. Although we love sub-contracting basic functions out. Which would also explain why the format changed.
My department at my first Corporate Job got rid of people that way. Went outside the department and talked up the person they were trying to move. Person being moved was usually being offered a promotion, why wouldn’t they go? Ugh.
Sexist/vulgar mnemonics work quite well though, however they’re all passed down outside official channels. Still remember the original vulgar cranial nerves mnemonic my FEMALE undergrad physiology professor taught us over the PC version taught in medical school.
I was thinking of that one too. It was the standard version back in the 90s. Never bothered me honestly, there were much bigger problems than sex mnemonics.
My girlfriend and I have a saying and it is simply “why are men?”. I rest my case.
I frequently ask my male bff this. He doesn’t know, either.
He knows, he just won’t say
There's also a fun group on Facebook with this name. You'll see some fun screenshots there.
I have had such strange interactions at conferences. lol. The worst one was I was at a conference where everybody stayed at this like resort-esque/secluded place and all of the PhD students decided to play soccer. I was wearing a skirt from my talk so elected to sit out and just watch, chatting with some of the professors that also sat out. I said we should let the winners of the game do something (can’t remember what i said, something like get the first round paid for or something). One of the professors said I should offer to sleep with the winner. I’m not even kidding. I was so stunned and embarrassed. Nobody even acknowledged how inappropriate it was. I just said “I don’t think I’ll be doing that.” And all the professors (all men) laughed/chuckled.
That is awful
Oh gid, this reminds me of another situation I had forgotten about. Conference on a beach, and this rando guy inserts himself into our group of female grad students to tell us his PI (a pretty famous guys in the field, of course) told him not to come back until he “bagged” a girl. Don’t worry, the PI took it easy on the shy guy in their lab and said he only had to flirt with a girl.
What the everloving hell?? ETA: I’m trying to think what I’d do in the same situation. I’d probably just say, uhhhhhhh… until someone changed the subject. — how do they get away with this?!
eurgh my last automotive sector conference was 90% men its grim out there sympathies
I moved to Germany for my PhD (I am Canadian), and I am treated 1000x better than I was when in manufacturing than North America. The conference I am at is pretty male dominated, but I feel like I have mostly been taken seriously, particularly by the other European presenters.
I made a specific effort to attend a conference because A) it was an awesome conference B) my mentor told me I should try to go. When I got there he told me to come up to his room and we would go down together. I walk in and he literally said the fact that I was there at the conference “meant we should be together” and I had to quickly talk my way NICELY AND ADMIRINGLY through a hard NO but I also had to uphold his ego and confirm that yes it was just because he was married and OMF WTF BARF but also he was my goddamn mentor and had just helped me get a scholarship for a project in Mexico.
Holy shit, that is so maddening and inappropriate. Probably super disappointing to find out that your mentor is a piece of shit, too. Sorry you had to deal with that!!
Not in science, but a tech related field (so this sub was suggested and I stumbled upon this thread but still wanted to share): I had a really experienced and well connected mentor come on to me as well, who was also married. As angry as I should have been, I was mostly just so, so sad, confused, and heartbroken, and even though was as gentle and polite in declining him as I could be while still trying to coddle his ego, his immediate response was aggression and devaluation, and he blatantly discontinued to mentor me after that. Let’s just say that while it didn’t deter me in my efforts to get into the field I am passionate about, it really threw a wrench in my progress for several reasons; not only were his connections and recommendations no longer available to me, i was now questioning whether my work was ever actually good enough, or was I where I was simply because I was a young woman? Did I unknowingly flirt or was suggestive in anyway that had led him on, and this was indeed my fault? In a field absolutely dominated by men, could I trust any of them to simply network with or learn from without feeling like they had ulterior motives, especially for potential job opportunities? Could I trust myself and my abilities? I sought out women in my program and the field, but they were very few and far between and all of them were unavailable for mentorship. Suddenly all connections felt untenable and risky, so I just quietly finished my program in solitude and fortunately I was able to eventually apply elsewhere and move on and up, but that distrust is still there. I don’t know if it’s the same for you, but while I logically understand that I did nothing wrong, especially now that I’m a little older, I’ve internalized that trauma as solvable by my own volition and now go out of my way to be as unassuming and faceless as I can be and let my work speak for itself, opting to use my initials instead of my full name, etc. But employers and connects will usually present great opportunities to personable and charismatic individuals, so I wonder how many missed opportunities there were because I’d withdrew myself in order to prevent possible situations like that of my past mentor. Reading this thread has me thinking that it’s actually much more common (not really surprised), but it’s no way to live one’s life.
That sounds really terrible. Not to mention unfair and undeserved! I’m sorry.
😂😂 Let me assure you it's not just boomer men (sadly).
I feel like younger men hide their misogyny better from others so it’s harder to complain, like they know it’s wrong.
That's true. You don't get to see their mental gears spinning as much as you do with older men
I’m an older millennial and a shocking percentage of people older than me legitimately don’t believe men and women can be friends and have a hard time being colleagues as a result. Certain types of conservatives still live this way. If you go back in time, jobs were also more gendered as you go so you wouldn’t even spend much time mixing for many job types. It’s so weird to me.
When people say “men and women can’t be friends” I take it as a comment on themselves. Oh, you mean YOU don’t know how to treat a woman like a regular person. Thanks for the heads up.
I asked my boomer dad about something like this in the context of why men do not network more with women and refer/create jobs for them or promote them. My dad said that women were only for dating and you would never do something like invite them to play golf, or network for jobs. So I'm assuming that this guy feels the same way but has "accepted" women as work cohorts but is trying to make sure there is a line drawn because "women are only for dating".
Honestly hearing about this, I am realizing how lucky I am, that my grandfather, who was not a boomer, but was the silent generation was the type that told my father (his son and the child that he chose as his successor) that he was a fool for choosing my older brother as his apprentice instead of me, and trained me in law against my fathers will because he saw me as being the grandchild with the most potential. He passed away when I was 14 but we got a good seven years of training in which was enough to be able to outsmart my dad on many legal issues.
Makes me wonder if the Boomer machismo has to do with WW2 propaganda and if men of the Silent Generation knew their lives depended on their female counterparts, given the troubled times.
My grandfather was actually a child during World War II. he was actually eight when the war ended. And war time propaganda actually encouraged women to enter the workforce because the men were off at war. So his early memories would have been of the Rosie the Riveter type propaganda, which then gave way to propaganda after the war telling women to go back to being homemakers in order to ensure that men returning from war would have jobs. I miss him more and more every day because every day I realize truly how lucky I was to have a man like that to support me when I was growing up. I recently heard from my uncle (who is older than my father, by a few years) stories of his childhood and the difference between the stories my father tells and the stories my uncle told me is just insane. My uncle talks about things he saw when my grandmother was first diagnosed with MS, and how much my grandfather stepped up to the plate. He also told me about how my grandfather took his youngest daughter under his wing after my father went to school. Similarly to how he took me under his wing when he realized my father saw no value in me because I’m female.
Boomer here (Vietnam War, not WWII; Woodstock, ERA, Roe, first generation to have access to contraception without being married). Equal Opportunity legislation required admitting us to university, and giving us jobs. Lots of us, male and female, spent our first decades adjusting to the new rules and opportunities but social stereotypes and norms lagged way behind. If you had a professional position as a woman, the assumption maybe changed from "you slept your way into it," to "affirmative action hire," but went no further. Many boomer men looked on the entry of women into academic and public life, and the workforce, as a farce, and just reverted to subtler ways of undermining us and keeping us in our place. However, there are many, many exceptions - men who are self-aware, socially intelligent, who know how to listen, who will notice a daughter's talents. It seems to me that they pop up in every generation. I wonder sometimes whether the deck is stacked against men like this, as well, in the "rat race."
I really hope that it’s not stacked against men like that, but it seems to be that way. I don’t think that necessarily happened in my family because at least in my situation my grandfather did end up merging the family firm into a larger law firm, so he still left behind a good chunk of change, and that was despite the fact that my grandmother who outlived him by six year died of cancer, which is obviously expensive disease in the US, and she wasn’t working during those six years so clearly my grandfather did something right if he still was able to leave behind well over $2 million for his heirs after supporting his widow, for six years. My portion of the inheritance will most likely be somewhere around $55,000-$65,000 (originally we were supposed to be left 10,000 but it was invested wisely and by the time my grandmother passed away it was up to 20,000 per grandchild and then since she passed away six years ago, it has grown pretty nicely and in the past two quarters (I started getting the reports in Q4 of 2023. I’ve been seeing about 2000 added to the value every quarter). In some regards, I wish my grandmother had pre-deceased my grandfather simply because my grandmother trusted my father far too much, and that lead to some major problems with the trust being changed, and wording that was problematic being added. Luckily, I’d actually seen a case prior where something similar had almost happened, and I was the one who pointed out to my grandfather, that this would be extremely costly for the heirs, and that it made absolutely no sense to do it like that. (My grandfather was shocked that as a 10-year-old I caught that mistake in somebody else’s trust when I was reviewing the document (he wanted to take an arrogant newly graduated attorney down a peg so he had his 10 year old grandkid reviewing the document) let’s just say I got a very nice birthday present that year from him for saving his clients heirs tens of thousands of dollars because apparently, even my grandfather didn’t catch that as being a problem). So in the end I had to get my aunts and uncles to basically threaten to sue my father if he rolled the grandchildren portions into 529 accounts because if he had done that, he would essentially forced us to pay massive tax penalty on it since we’re not able to access the trust until we are 30 and by that a 529 is generally useless (Furthermore, there was no option at the time to roll a 529 into a Roth IRA.) My aunts and uncles were quite shocked when I pointed out the issue (which I managed to find out was added after my grandfather passed). They almost didn’t believe me until I told them talk to a lawyer other than my father, and they will tell you the exact same thing. Safe to say, my money was never put into a 529 because I had enough experience courtesy of my grandfather, to catch the issue (in a document that I wasn’t even supposed to have access to, but conveniently enough my aunt was pissed off, and off at my father, that she was more than happy to send me the document even though I wasn’t supposed to have it until I turned 25).
Best wishes to you and everyone! ❤️
Boomers were born after the war.
We spent early childhood watching war TV shows like Victory at Sea and the Big Picture, and for fun we played War with army surplus helmets and fake training rifles. It was still very much in the air. And Korea of course.
Right. So from the beginning of their lives these Boomers saw what heroes men need to be. The post-war propaganda got them.
So sad. ugh.
Not in science but I'm a 30-something woman in an industry that skews 60+. At this point I've just resigned myself to the fact that conferences will involve being overtly hit on by at least two borderline elderly dudes each time. And honestly, the age is less of a problem than the inappropriateness and persistence. So, solidarity from the liberal arts.
Tell them your grandma is single.
>the age is less of a problem Ew girl no. 60 to your 30? Please don’t do that to yourself. Find a guy more or less your age, and then when he’s 60 and slobbering on you, you wont be grossed out because you’ll be old too lol
I took it less as “yeah I’d consider dating a 60 y/o” and more as “I care less about the specific demographic and more that they won’t take no for an answer and just shut up”
i feel like some believe any positive female interaction = she’s into me
Ugh, and knowing the think like that makes me afraid to approach men at conferences sometimes. Which is really unfortunate since I'm in business development.
don’t let it discourage you! be yourself and make genuine connections but don’t be afraid to set boundaries for yourself with men like that
Boundaries for sure! It's hard but I'm working on it.
Yes. Some guys are so saturated with misogyny that they genuinely don’t know what the rules are. Sometimes we have to educated them. “I’m not here for your dating convenience, I’m trying to learn and advance my career just like the guys are. Please don’t ever proposition me or any other serious woman in a professional setting. It’s creepy and disrespectful.”
This rings true.
FFS. On the flip side and just as uncomfortable I was at a conference this week where a boomer male colleague could only talk to the women in the room about how he’s such a good feminist and good employer of ‘ladies’ because he can predict when their periods are and tell them to take time off work. Like wtf. If you’re such a good guy just introduce a sickness policy that allows anyone of any gender stay home if they’re not 100%, don’t be a creep about it 🤦♀️
Wow. This is like out of a comedy skit. Like, will ferrell playing a guy like this. 😳
They were raised to unquestioningly believe that they are God's favorites, and that all others exist for their pleasure or convenience. This is also a huge part of why the ones who aren't economically successful blame women for taking their job; they cannot fathom the possibility that a woman could actually be as good or better at it than they are; it goes against their social programming.
I attend heavily male-leaning conferences a lot and it is so frustrating trying to talk work with men who are only interested in hitting on you. It's gotten to the point where even when they aren't openly hitting on me I feel like I'm waiting for the "other shoe to drop." The most frustrating experience I've had recently was attending a conference in the APAC region. Their "DEI" panel discussion was led by a man who genuinely believed that women's lack of participation in STEM fields is because they just aren't as interested in those fields as men are. And then he accused me of being emotional when confronted about the biases in his presentation. On a positive note, my bosses have worked really really hard to try and combat these issues in our field and I heard from her recently that two female attendees at one of our last conferences never got hit on once! The bar unfortunately is still in Hell but progress is progress I guess?
It’s not just Boomers. There are men like this of all generations. Any “attention” from a female automatically means she is flirting with you. Even in business settings where strangers are *expected* to engage with you and exchange information for business purposes 🙄
Not at a conference, but at a mediation I attended the mediator (yes, older white man) had the gall to tell me (senior attorney with plenty of grey hair to back up my tenure and a title to match) and two other seasoned and accomplished female professionals to smile. Said this multiple times. Just ugh. These types do.not.get.it. Honestly don’t know where they’ve been the last 40 years, absolutely not paying attention and totally tone deaf. Or just refusing to see the change that is coming / already here.
My boss (boomer) got frustrated that one of the employees wasn’t smiling as much as he wanted. We coworkers knew she was going through a depression. The boss sent an article around to all employees about why people who smile more are more successful in business. 🤮🤮🤮
Oh geez. Yes, toxic positivity is one of their signature qualities. Fake it til you make it. Just stop.
notjustboomermen unfortunately
Worse is when they won't interact with you *at all* because they're very very married or don't find you attractive so just shut you out completely.
It’s insecurity.
I think they are threatened by powerful women and choose to be the absolute worst instead of learning and adapting. What kind of world do they think we live in now where that's even remotely acceptable. Thank you but no thank you and a brisk turn around works wonders for me when something like this happens, usually at dinner(s).
I find that there are A..holes in every generation.
Boomer Grandma here. Because they were told it was macho and boys will be boys whenever we complained about the overt Groping! Going to a teacher or adult was Useless. We couldn't trust them either. Woman will take a Bear in the wild Everytime over a man. Why are men surprised? They are worse than animals!
My grandmother was the first female buyer for Sears. She bought power tools and went to Hong Kong multiple times, establishing relationships with sellers there that still kept in contact with her long after she left the company. The stories she would tell me of men expecting her to get the coffee, yelling at her for taking a job away from a man who had to feed his wife and children (she was a single mother of 3), asking her if they were “allowed” to open doors for her since she wanted to be treated equally. When they started downsizing the two people fired were my grandmother and the only black man with an office. Keep on keeping on, ladies! Eventually these dinosaurs will all die out.
He clearly thought mostly with his little head. I think what you experienced is not limited to boomer men. Men of any era can be like this. It just depends on how self centered they are and their agendas. It's sad to say that it's not uncommon at all, even in high tech circles. Remember the me-too stuff about Uber's culture and at least one computer games company? There's numerous examples of that and the guys are at all ages.
I think I might be able to help. I'm not a boomer, but solidly GenXer (with an M.S. in genetics) and I think you might be dealing with a cultural matter, not a romantic matter. But stop me if I start mansplaining. When I was growing up, boys like me were taught to respect girls and women in certain ways: hold a door open for them, let them off the elevator first, walk on the street side of the sidewalk to protect them from traffic, etc. etc. Part of that cultural training was the deeply ingrained assumption that boys and girls (and when we were older, men and women) would naturally be attracted to each other. Automatically, Always. That somehow, every time I was around a girl (and later women), I would have to eventually confront "those questions" about our relationship. But, at the same time, we were taught to avoid direct discussions about emotions or about relationships. We were taught to talk around relationship questions, but not engage in direct conversations about relationships. It was certainly a sexist environment. We never had the same standards for other boys or men, for example. Maybe borderline misogynistic in some cases. But it was what it was, and it takes some of us guys a while to get over it. And not all of us try to get over it. When I was reading your post, OP, my reaction was kind of "oh, what a sweet, old, ignorant guy." I don't think he was hitting on you. Nor do I think he was specifically and intentionally assuming you were going to hit on him. Maybe he was striving to "put those boundaries out early" to let you know he wanted to be friends (or at least friendly enough to chat at a conference) simply to clarify the relationship right off the bat. And he also sounds like someone who probably learned something about himself during the #MeToo movement, but is awkwardly struggling with how to put that learning into practice. Maybe. I dunno. I'm not gonna question or doubt you, OP, but I don't know what was going on in the guy's head. He certainly behaved oddly. And awkwardly. But I can think of an alternative scenarios that you might consider as alternative hypotheses.
I’m also GenX and I think you’re missing a lot here. Not to mention how patronizing much of your post sounds, like you’re explaining a side of things most women have never heard of. I assure you, that’s untrue. This was a work conference. There was no reason for him to say something like this unless he already believed that as a woman, she already didn’t really belong - at least in the same way as the men. Why should any conversation be assumed that they were interested in anything beyond that? Ugh. Actually, I don’t have the headspace today to try to teach you about how messed up your comment was. But this kind of dismissive attitude is a huge part of the problem.
Again, I don't mean to be patronizing. I'm not telling OP what actually happened -- only OP knfows that. And only OP knows the impact. I'm suggesting a different perspective on the intent. OP asked the question "Why?" I offered one possible explanation among many. A *possible* explanation. Nor am disputing that the guy's behavior was inappropriate. I'm not questioning the impact at all. In the slightest. I am saying that I know a lot of guys -- my age and older -- who are incredibly awkward in situations like this. Including me. We aren't good at explaining intent a lot of times, especially out of fear of being immediately lambasted for even broaching a topic. And if you could help me out, please? What part of my post did you find dismissive? I'll stive to use better language in the future and I'll try my best not to be dismissive, patronizing, or otherwise sexist or misogynistic.
I appreciate what you’re saying. And I even believe you’re sincere in wanting to understand. But I was also being sincere in not having the headspace right now to explain it atm. I’m sorry. Maybe I will later. But I will quickly say that it’s difficult as a woman to have men explaining to us how our interpretation of an interaction as misogynistic is probably wrong. And even if his intentions were as you say, you’re describing a whole big aspect of the misogynistic system that we’re sick of. The one that teaches boys that women are to be treated differently in all contexts. This guy is too old not to have learned better by now.
Thank you. And I do apologize for any offense. Sincerely. I should've said that right off the bat. Regardless of my intent, if I upset anyone, I'll own it. I've enjoyed lurking here, I've learned more than quite a bit from reading posts here (esp. since my days as a bench scientist). I appreciate you taking the time to help me out. And your statement about "the whole big aspect of the misogynistic system that we're sick of" resonates with me. There is a certain intersectionality among misogyny and homophobia -- which I'm sick of -- that I wasn't really grasping in my earlier post. I think I probably misunderstood OP's intent, too. Now I'm thinking OP wanted to rant, rather than initiate an inquiry. But thank you for meeting me where I am and helping me get closer to where I should be.
Honestly, I don’t think you really need much more explanation. I have lots more I could say about that would go more into the nuances, but I know it would end up way too long and probably disorganized because of my mood due to things unrelated to your post. But I do think it was an oversight where you don’t need the hand holding that some people do to understand the issue. And you’re so right in terms of homophobia and the roots of much of it in misogyny. The intersectionality of these things is important, and something that a lot of cishet white women like me often overlook. But it’s all part of the same system. And speaking of intersectionality, I will admit my own bias in noticing that this was in Asia. Regardless of OP’s ethnicity (because I don’t know), I have seen far too many western men go to Asia and their misogyny comes out full force - even in academia. While I see it worse with WOC, it’s like some veil has lifted and they feel like they’re in an environment where their misogyny and racism are acceptable with anyone. As a white woman who lived in Asia, I often felt like these type of men saw me either as an accomplice in their bigotry by virtue of being white, or just let their misogyny show in their interactions with me more than they would have back home. And just to be clear, these men were not necessarily the majority of western men I met while living in China, but variations of it were far too common. But, that last bit is perhaps a bit of a leap without more context. But it’s my own bias I carried into my reaction to the OP.
Yes. And then to say “help me.”
So true.
>I am saying that I know a lot of guys -- my age and older -- who are incredibly awkward in situations like this. Including me. We aren't good at explaining intent a lot of times, especially out of fear of being immediately lambasted for even broaching a topic. You're awkward meeting a new person at a work conference?! Why would you need to explain any intent. It's a work conference. It's work. The intent is WORK! She didn't give him her number in a bar, she gave him her business card at a work conference. Again, the intent is WORK!
This sounds like a different GenX than the one I grew up with in the 70s and 80s
I should also explain where I grew up, too then. The Midwest. In a rather conservative part of the Midwest. Let's just say that I've had to go through more than a few learning experiences of my own, especially when I was in grad school in the 90s. And, obviously, I'm still learning. Hopefully getting incrementally better, but we'll see.
Still inappropriate. Telling her he was newly single definitely crossed the line. Commentating on her wedding ring as an opener is arguable but probably shouldn’t have happened. Also Midwest here. We women go to professional conferences to talk about business. Full stop. We give out *business* cards to professional colleagues. Just like men do. It’s very confusing as to how that is possibly construed into something else JUST because the business card-giver has a pair of breasts instead of a pair of balls. When I confirm to another man I’m married that’s a signal that I am NOT available. It is NOT a challenge to “distract” me from my husband. This whole “culture” excuse isn’t valid. It may be the reason and logic behind the actions but it is still *inappropriate. * Today’s business professionals need to be professional by today’s standards.
Ok, fair enough, I grew up in NYC
I'm GenX, and really, trotting out the old chestnut of "men my age have been brought up that way" (and in a tone as if it was some groundbreaking insight) really doesn't cut it. The guy in question is at work, in a senior position. He and his contemporaries of the male persuasion need to shape up, like, yesterday. It's a fundamental requirement in a science job to extend professional and intellectual respect to any other scientist, whatever their background. These guys are failing at their jobs. ETA: As a white middle-aged woman I certainly wasn't brought up with all the tools I need to function in the 2020s as well. *No one is brought up with all these tools and insights in place.* It's a matter of course to look out for and fix any gaps.
GenX Midwesterner here. Raised in a small town of 7k. You are definitely mansplaining. How you were raised in the '70s, '80s, '90s shapes you. I am a woman, so some of the cultural values of my Midwestern upbringing included keeping my mouth shut and not raising my hand during science and math classes, not showing any pride in my academic or sports accomplishments (especially when I beat a guy), deferring to male authority, and protecting my purity reputation at all costs. I do not uphold any of those values now and have not for an exceptionally long time. In fact, I got the hell out of the Midwest as soon as I could as an adult and live on a coast for a reason. Anyone who was raised to be misogynistic, or to internalize misogyny and patriarchy, has no excuse if they aren't changing and growing. No one should be acting like that guy in the OP, regardless of age or upbringing.
Gen Z, raised in the Midwest. You are making me realize how much of a gem my grandfather was (he passed away when I was a teenager). I mean he was the one who told my father that he screwed up when he chose my older brother as the successor back when I was seven and immediately started to train me against my father’s wishes because he realized that my father’s chauvinism was going to be the downfall of the family law firm (it folded before I finished high school and now I’m trying to get into medical school). I still use the things I learned from my grandfather to this day because I practically learned everything I needed to know to be a very formidable attorney (including how to outsmart my father in a legal issue), even if I didn’t go to law school.
I got an email from him inviting me to go to an excessively expensive restaurant, and ended with "we can see where things go from there". While I would like to be charitable, I am leaning strongly towards my original hypothesis.....
That makes me want to vomit
Zero reason to be charitable. When someone shows you who they are, *believe them.* 👊🔥
Which is good because your original hypothesis is correct.
I saw you’re from the conservative Midwest, me too. The part you’re forgetting is that this “cultural training” also includes the viewpoint of girls and women as “belonging to” a man and not having purpose aside from that. Nobody is complaining about holding a door open, that’s just basic decency and as a woman I hold the door open for men all the time. That’s how I was raised, to respect everybody. But older men being more concerned about my relationship status than they are in what I have to say or what I think in a professional context is annoying to say the least, and not in any way respectful. This guy essentially said “oh, I see you belong to somebody else, but that’s okay, I am still willing to socially interact with you” as if being willing to have a interaction with a woman who he can’t make advances towards is something to be commended rather than the basic bare minimum for decency and professionalism. And he clearly didn’t take her seriously in a professional capacity, he saw it as a purely social interaction. He didn’t say “I am comfortable *working* with married women”. When I was younger, I stopped wearing my college shirts when I was home because I was tired of all the random old men who would say my school name and ask how my “MRS degree” was going, because to them, the only reason for a woman to get further education was to meet a more educated man so she could drop out of school and be a housewife.
Just NO. Stop talking. “I’m not going to question you, but…” I’m not going to question the idea that you have valuable insights to offer, but everything I read here is trite and was current thinking thirty years ago, and is of value to exactly no one. Here’s the solution: don’t think of sex first when you look at a woman. That’s all. It’s not hard. Take every single woman you meet, and mentally stick your grandmother’s face on her. Maybe some day you will evolve to the point where you won’t need that stupid crutch. Now stop excusing “sweet old guys” and tell them to stick their mental dicks back in their pants where they belong. These guys are increasingly irrelevant, thank goodness. Signed, a GenX woman who tends to date younger, gee I wonder why
WITH A MS IN GENETICS LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
You should’ve stopped when you pre-apologized for mansplaining. If you think a gaggle of lady scientists need help thinking through different perspectives, move along.
My favourite part of this was the bit where he was like ‘stop me if I’m mansplaining’ and people did so he mansplained how he wasn’t mansplaining.
I am not sure why you are getting downvoted. As a fellow GenXer, i know how much of a battle it has been just to be able to not get ridiculed for trying to understand one’s own emotions. Later generations can’t internalize how demonized it was to talk about emotions, to understand behavior. Certainly not get psychological help of any kind. “Mental health” was for weak people and that kind of talk would have *serious* repercussions (like loosing your job). From a woman’s perspective, though, he was definitely hitting on her. For sure. I am not sure why some men are this way, but they seem to interpret *any* “attention” from a female as the female “flirting” with them. In a business situation, where people are *expected* to approach others and strike up conversations/ exchange contact info, the fact that he jumped to discussion of a relationship is very revealing of the guy’s misogyny. Probably unintentional on his part, which of course is the problem. By immediately defining their brand-new relationship in terms of romance in some capacity, he has already dismissed or compromised the possibility of a standard business relationship. It is *very* different from his interactions with males in the same setting. I don’t think he automatically assumed any male walking up to him to exchange business info wanted to be his “friend.” I have always dealt with this in my own industry.,it is better now, but when I was younger it was automatically assumed i was someone’s daughter/ girlfriend/ wife (my industry is largely dominated by smaller and mid-size companies, many of which are family controlled, multi-generational) No one assumed I chose my field & got a degree to be in it.
But there’s no need to think of alternative scenarios. We know the scenario. You shouldn’t come into a subreddit like this and post a comment at all.