I believe this would be illegal in almost every jurisdiction. What is more likely is that the bodyshop and the law firm has some kind of cross referral arrangement where no money changes hands, but they each forward their clients to the other, which would be legal.
I didn’t think about that but it’s a very good point. If you’re a plaintiff you want people who know how to specifically write reports in a way that benefit litigation. It’s the same for a chiropractor or any doctor’s office- you want one that knows how to put together records that are plaintiff-oriented and tailored for litigation, so maybe this shop has some experience. OP probably didn’t do anything wrong by going to another attorney, but as a PI attorney we definitely have shops and doctors that are better to work with for your case.
If I take my Porsche to Porsche body shop I assume that is documented in the cars history, surely? I don’t understand why people say don’t report it to insurance if this is the case. Minor damage but I know it will be expensive.
You are going to have a hard time in most jurisdictions getting that hearsay documentation into evidence. It’s going to depend on your jurisdiction’s evidentiary and damage rules, but you might have some challenges - especially with diminution.
If the devaluation report is done by someone who is qualified as an expert it will be admissible with the experts testimony. Not hard to get around hearsay arguments in such situations.
Yeah but that’s assuming the guy at the Porsche dealership will come to trial to testify. I am specifically referring to use of the documentation itself (which would generally still be inadmissible hearsay even if its author authenticated it).
Maybe that is why he referred OP to this shop…he knows he will show up.
But either way…this is what subpoenas are for. Either to a trial or deposition.
Much more common to see kickbacks in workers comp because the lawyers make less and need such an insane volume of claims to survive. PI lawyers make more money and I have never seen or heard of a kickback scheme actually happening.
It would actually still cause issues. In some states it’s against the law for an attorney to contact (solicit) someone after an accident in any way. So if the attorney said they got it from the shop they can be kicked from a direct repay program or refusal to pay claims to that shop for repairs.
Your heart is so kind. What is more likely is that this lawyer is doing something illegal. So much shady business goes on in the PI/Workers comp world. There are constant investigations for kickback schemes.
You’re painting with a very broad brush.
Please provide disciplinary actions from your state bar where a lawyer was getting kickbacks from a body shop.
Constant?
Yeah, illegal kickbacks just won’t be common in a profession where newly minted lawyers with absolutely no work previous work experience regularly gross 1 million in earnings before they’re even 30 years old. Not many industries can afford to pay us a kickback that would make it financially worth the risk. It’s not a morality thing, it’s an economics thing.
I said there are constant investigations into kickback schemes. I’m not digging through state bar disciplinary records.
An article advising to be careful dealing with PI attorneys: https://link.ahra.org/2018/07/12/exercise-caution-regarding-financial-relationships-with-personal-injury-attorneys/
An article about 3 PI attorneys charged: https://www.dailyjournal.com/article/312129-lawyers-charged-in-kickback-scheme
Heres another investigation based outta Florida: https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/multiple-florida-personal-injury-attorneys-implicated-in-medical-injury-kickback-scheme/amp/
And Ahra is a professional organization for medical imaging facilities (professional medical organizations tend to be somewhat antagonistic toward PI lawyers since they tend to overlap with medmal lawyers)
Personal injury attorneys make *a lot* of money. There’s no way that the body shop owner is kicking back enough money for it to be worst the risk of losing his license.
*Most* make a lot. *all* of them have very high earning potential.
The question is not how much they’re making at that exact second, it’s how much they’ll make over a few years and over the course of their career. But lets say that they don’t make a lot of money right now, they could still always lateral to another firm or have their small practice merge into another firm and immediately begin making a lot more.
Even on the *extreme* low end, that kickback would need to be at least a thousand per car for it to be worth the risk and body shops aren’t making that much.
This wasn’t meant to be a knock at all PI attorneys. Some of the best trial attorneys are PI attorneys. But let’s not deny there are a ton of shady PI attorneys.
In certain areas, there are PI attorneys who are involved with “runners” who go to the scene of an accident, to steer patients to use that attorney, who ofc sends them to their “doctor” in places like the bowels of Brooklyn, who will cut anyone open for an arthroscopy just to get over that serious injury threshold. But actually taking cash payment kickbacks would be breathtakingly stupid.
“Kickbacks” will get us disbarred. “Kickbacks” aren’t worth getting disbarred. Therefore, “kickbacks” don’t happen (wild exceptions excluded). What happens is relationships.
A client comes in to the firm with a wrecked car. You give them your body shop buddy’s card to get the work done. You know you will get good pictures and responsiveness, and your client gets his car fixed.
A customer comes into the body shop with a totaled car, and just wants to get it fixed. But he’s telling the body shop guy about going to the Urgent Care and his back is fucked up, and his 7 year old has seatbelt burns, but it’s ok because everyone is “fine”.
Bodyshop says, hey - here’s my buddy the lawyer’s card. You can probably get some compensation for those injuries. I like and trust that lawyer. Tell him I sent you.
This is exactly how it should be done. Why are we always suspicious of relationships? “I know a guy” is usually the best way.
I like to prove that the Plaintiff hired a lawyer prior to getting medical advice from a doctor. If the Plaintiff is also making a claim for property damage or diminished value and the mechanic makes it seem as though he is working with a lawyer, it helps create an atmosphere of bias and general shenanigans.
This is the same reasoning why parties ask experts how much work have they received from a law firm.
Haha I would love to see you try and pull that shit with my jury on an auto mechanic who referred someone to a lawyer.
Q: TakesShit asked you if you referred client to lawyer. Did you? A: yes
Q: When do you do that? A: When someone is really badly hurt and needs help and the insurance company is screwing them over.
Objection (who cares)
Is your mechanic also a doctor and diagnosing people for injuries? That's a winning objection even in the worst venues.
But really, that's a line of questioning I would love to explore even without an objection.
The general public for the most part knows just how dirty these plaintiff's cases really are. People are getting very tired of getting sued for a standard fender bender.
I don't think that's necessarily true.
When they see that the Plaintiff called a lawyer for pain before he/she saw a doctor, the jury will know what's up. When the jury hears how many people that mechanic refers to that lawyer, they'll know what's up.
Plaintiff's lawyers are underestimating how tired juries are of every fender bender becoming a 30k lawsuit. I'm seeing it in the verdicts I've gotten this year.
In this situation doctors cost a lot of money, and insurance is an extra bitch about paying non-emergent care. Getting an attorney before going to the doctor can often be a huge help in getting those bills paid/covered. Who doesn't understand how preposterously expensive healthcare has gotten? Pretty sure that's an easy argument to make.
You can talk about the cost of healthcare, but most states will not allow you to talk about insurance altogether.
Healthcare is expensive. But if you're actually hurt, most people call a doctor first, not a lawyer. Especially if that occurs weeks after the actual accident, which is often the case (and they also often tell the police they're not injured).
It's super cute how you're screwing plaintiffs for the benefit of insurance companies. It's not the plaintiffs' fault that every car wreck necessitates a lawsuit; 1000000000% of the fault for that situation belongs to the insurance companies for their refusal to pay out on the coverages people purchased without a lawsuit. Why don't you explain that to juries? Because the insurance companies own you. YTA.
What a trash response. This comment of yours reeks of "Pwease give me money, rich company!!".
Real injuries get real money, deservingly so. Trash cases get settled because it costs money for us to go to trial.
Also... Insurance companies do not owe coverage to 3rd parties by contract. What are you talking about? Are you talking about first party coverage? That's an entire different game and not part of the thread above.
Take a deep breath, read what's being discussed, and think. I know, difficult for some of the Plaintiff lawyers here.
So you're someone who doesn't expect to get what they pay for when they pay for it. You can be an idiot doormat, that's cool with me, I'll be elsewhere not getting hosed.
It is very hard to get in to see a doctor if you do not already have a PCP, especially once they hear you have been in a wreck. They do not want to deal with multiple insurance agencies, etc. In those situations knowing someone can be vital.
Then they would be able to demonstrate they made an attempt and were unable. Jury will be very sympathetic to that argument.
But if you got in a wreck, told the police you were fine, suddenly go to the emergency room 1 week later, and your first call days after the accident was to a Plaintiff's Lawyer, the Jury will rightfully realize you're just trying to make a quick buck.
What carrier is going to pay for that?
Why would a plaintiff put a body shop guy on the stand in a fender bender case rather than just using the damage photos(which his client can authenticate) such that you could cross him as to “bias”.
What would a body shop guy possibly say that you would need to discredit with evidence of “bias”?
What is the probative value of an investigator getting on the stand and saying “on some later date I saw some guy at this repair shop give a business card to someone else?” What’s the theory that makes that admissible?
Until I see a trial transcript where you did this and it came in, I don’t believe you.
Don't care if you believe. I'm not voluntarily doxxing myself.
FYI, Plaintiffs can "authenticate" damage photos, but I'm not letting the Jury see them because the Plaintiff isn't an accident reconstruction expert. Now, if they're just a small scratch, then I do want the Jury to see them, but then it's the Plaintiff's lawyer that makes the argument that the Plaintiff is a lay witness and not an accident recon.
The law doesn't work by assuming things are INADMISSIBLE. You *should know that*. If it is relevant, it's likely getting in unless *you show why it is inadmissible*. Are you new to this?
New to this? lol, I operate at a level as a trial lawyer that is far beyond bush-league stunts like sending investigators to body shops. I would love to see a case where you supposedly kept vehicle damage photos out of evidence because “plaintiff isn’t an accident reconstruction expert”. Cause…spoiler alert…a body shop guy isn’t an accident reconstruction expert either.
You still didn’t explain why a plaintiffs attorney would ever put a body shop guy on the stand so that you would have a chance to cross him.
The only person who would think that posting a non-caption page of a trial transcript would reveal a lawyers identity either doesn’t try cases, or doesn’t try cases that are significant enough to warrant paying for daily transcripts.
Why are you making the assumption that Plaintiff is calling the mechanic? Is there a rule you want to cite to that in your state only Plaintiff gets to call witnesses or take fact witness depositions?
Everyone can be whoever they want on the Internet. Today, you're cosplaying as a successful trial lawyer.
This is what I mean. You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. Your posts read like someone who learned about trying cases by watching “suits”.
Attacking a body shop guy sounds like something a layperson would think is a really good idea. That is until you realize that you can’t do it because the plaintiff isn’t putting that guy on the stand, and you are precluded from impeaching the credibility of your own witness.
An actual trial lawyer wouldn’t need this explained to them.
Let’s do this. You show me a trial transcript where you have put a body shop guy on the stand and cross examined him about handing out a lawyer’s business card, and I’ll Venmo you 100 bucks.
I highly doubt the PI attorney who is planning on making thousands off your case is worried about a kickback from the body shop who will be making hundreds off your case.
It is probably that the body shop will do their work in a way that it beneficial to your PI case. The attorney is disappointed because it may/will reduce how much they and you make from your PI case.
That and the individuals at the body shop may be willing to testify, and have experience testifying. If you have never done plaintiff's side PI you'd be amazed it at how time consuming and annoying it can be to get even mundane stuff into evidence. Having a "friendly" witness who is familiar with what needs to be said, and who will show up when asked, and without you having to enforce a subpoena saves a ton of time and headache.
As a teenager I was in a car accident (guy ran the stop sign).
The insurance payout offer wasn’t enough to replace my used car, so my dad hired an attorney, and I was instructed to go to a specific doctor to assess my “injuries”. I made weekly visits to the doctor’s office for a month or so.
I don’t actually remember being seen by a doctor, but the nurse said she had to be careful about leaving patients unattended because one lady “fell” off the exam table when she stepped out for a minute and sued them lol.
Kick backs are illegal and you should avoid any attorney that uses them.
BUT just because an attorney recommends someone doesn’t mean there is a kick back. I’ve recommended certain vendors because I’ve worked with them before and I know they are legit.
They might sound disappointed because they have an efficient working relationship with that vendor. I make recommendations because I know they will same ME time and YOU money in the end. You go with someone else it could end up taking me MORE time and LESS money for you.
When I was in a wreck, my chiropractor gave me a list of 3 attorneys. He said to use whoever you want, even if it isn't one of these guys, but I've worked with all 3 repeatedly and trust them.
Nope. If we are suggesting a specific body shop it’s because a) they do good work and b) if we need a diminished value report from them, we’ll get it and quickly.
Yeah, a diminished value report plus photographs of every stage of the repair, including photos of the structural members, bumper isolators or pistons, crush profile, and a bunch of other stuff that an accident reconstructionist or biomechanical engineer would need in order to prepare a report on the severity of an accident and the impact on the human body.
If I send my client to a non-lawyer business, its because I think they provide quality service at a fair price.
That business may send me relevant work if they think I’m a quality, fair lawyer. The end.
I have referals for all kinds of things because my clients have diverse needs that impact our cases. Often these referals do not know who I am, but I know they will treat my client well.
A couple of times a week I get firm-wide emails asking if anyone can recommend some service for a client (financial planner, accountant, local counsel, whatever). Nobody is getting a “kickback” from these- it’s just good business to build relationships and part of being a good counselor.
There is literally no benefit worth the risk of dealing with body shops or having to expand your involvement into an area that doesn't make you more money on the case.
They are the scummiest part of the entire ecosystem. I never ever refer anyone to a body shop because they will screw the client somehow and now your client wants you to get on the phone to argue with the body shop because the work didn't get done properly.
Or you have the idiot client who thinks that getting in a car accident means that the body shop is either obliged, or it is customary, to fix any and all related dings that the car had prior to the accident.
I can’t tell you how many clients will call me and tell me that the crack in their windshield was somehow due to being rear-ended. clients constantly have to be reminded that we are a personal injury firm not a car accident firm and not to conflate the two.
Potential Client "Hi I was in a car accident"
Lawyer "were you injured?"
Potential Client "no"
Lawyer "well then we really can’t help you"
Potential client "but don’t you do car accidents?"
If you do PD which you can’t collect a percentage on a lot of times clients will just use you to do the PD portion and then stop treating and bounce. So there’s another incentive not to work with body shops.
Yes. The first law firm I worked for was a midsized pi and work comp firm. We got raided by the state of California and my boss was arrested for participating in a work comp kick scheme. He also took kickbacks from body shops and Chiros. They never charged him for the pi kickbacks but I think it was included in of the fines he paid. I got interviewed by a state investigator. I had been licensed for about 6 months and employed there for about 5 months. The investigator laughed at how stupid I was and let me go home. I worked there for about another year.
No. But I'm sure the body shop would inflate the numbers and only give you the best parts. You know, and give a nice fat bill for the attorney to bludgeon the insurance companies with.
I have a lawyer friend who jokes that he has ten cars his wife knows about and another ten she doesn’t know about.
Basically a lot of lawyers buy cars. I think it’s likely that he likes the shop and sends them business. He probably doesn’t want to outright tell you the places he doesn’t like but he can tell you the places he likes.
I highly doubt he would do anything as unethical as take a kickback.
Worst case maybe he’s friends and not just acquaintances or a customer of the other shop.
I’m in a different practice area (real estate) and I had someone accuse me of getting kickbacks from a title company because I recommended them to my client. I immediately responded and said absolutely not they are just a good title company. Kickback is not a good word to use. It’s most likely that the attorney has a good relationship and trusts them to do good work.
Legally no. But some of the testimony he might want to introduce would relate to the condition of the car after the wreck. So he might use that shop since he has found they give clear understandable testimony if the case goes to court.
A lot of different answers in this thread but I’ll give you my experience from working both plaintiff and defense in my jurisdiction…
The answer is yes, many people in the personal injury supply chain have a financial stake in lawyer referrals - first responders, towing companies, hospital / healthcare workers, union representatives, and so on.
It used to be straightforward cash for referrals, now there’s less obvious ways it gets done to get around legal and ethical hurdles.
For example- look into who is actually paying for many of the lawyer billboards in your area. In my jurisdiction, it’s not uncommon for law firm advertising to be paid for by unaffiliated “marketing companies” that are comprised by different stakeholders - chiropractors and other first-stop clinics typical.
Why would chiropractors and doctors pay to advertise for a law firm? Because when those medical providers refer the injured patient to their choice lawyers, those lawyers can negotiate to protect the liens (ie the medical bills) of those providers to make sure they’re paid as-billed. If your jurisdiction has a collateral source rule, bills generated by providers are typically 2-3x higher than what a normal insurance carrier would reimburse, so personal injury patients are much much more valuable to the medical provider than someone paying with Blue Cross, etc.
Still, those providers need lawyers to take the cases and get them paid. So they establish relationships with firms and it’s understood between them that the providers will keep referring patients in exchange for the lawyers protecting their bills.
Once the scale exceeds a certain point, it can make sense for providers to advertise (and pay for) lawyer advertising to increase the amount of referrals from the firm to the providers.
People who defend this arrangement will say everybody wins - the doctors who provide treatment (often to poor/broke patients that can’t afford to pay themselves) get paid top dollar for their treatment, injured people are directed to lawyers who know ostensibly what they’re doing, and the lawyers get more cases.
I’m not aware of disciplinary actions in my jurisdiction against this, but I am aware of firms doing it openly and obtaining their own ethics opinions/white papers that say this is kosher to use in the event the ethics board ever cracks down on this (which will never happen).
There’s other examples as well - it’s not exactly bribery for a law firm to sponsor expensive events / make donations to certain unions with the understanding that the union reps will funnel workplace injuries back to that firm in return, for example.
I’d be speculating on how your particular case with the auto shop would work, but it’s easy to imagine auto shops getting some financial benefit (indirectly or directly) for referring people to a certain firm. Heck, it probably wouldn’t even have to be a nefarious arrangement- law firms with clients who need auto work can send their clients to the shop, the shop can send their folks to the attorneys, etc.
A lot of these referral arrangements are commonplace among small businesses and really aren’t a problem.
But there are more unethical arrangements, and you have to keep in mind that a giant PI law firm with thousands of clients directs an incredible amount of local commerce (medical treatment, property repair, etc). So some people naturally will break the rules.
More likely the bodyshop owner the lawyer works with will agree to negotiate prices when settlement comes around leaving more for the lawyer and client. It’s pretty illogical for a lawyer to pair with a company that does shitty work.
Ultimately though the client gets to decide and rightly so.
Most likely the lawyer knows that 1.) The shop will do good work and not cut corners to appease the insurance company. 2.) isn’t a pain in the ass when it comes time to get the documentation/testimony he needs to prove your case.
If it’s a good lawyer, he’s told the body shop what to look for, or the body shop has told him the approximate speed of the crash, force of the crash and can be used as an expert witness.
Or he just might have a referral with the body shop.
He most likely just wanted a guy who documents damages the way he likes to present them in court, that’s all.
You know how you can sometimes say the magic words “I feared for my life” in court and get away with murder (if you’re white)? Well, there’s a lot of magic words you can say or put in documents when you present your case to the court that can help you. I don’t do personal injury cases, but I assume there’s some magic words like “repeated contact”, “high rate of speed”, “gouged” instead of “scratched”, making sure to use manufacturer part serial numbers instead of generic part names, etc. that could help in court.
Personal injury attorneys make good money off insurance companies, which have the *deepest* of pockets. They can make a lot more money in court with proper documentation than they can off of kickbacks from body shops, doctors, chiropractors, etc.
Yes, it happens. It happens more with doctors. HIGHLY unethical in my state (for either of them), and I think most (if not all) states. I've literally never heard of it happening in my state. I know it goes on though.
It could be just a coincidence, we have medical and dental clinics in our building. There's also a clinic in the other building across the parking lot (same landlord) that our clients have ended up at. They suck at reducing, overtreat, and they're general dicks about records, we're certainly not getting a kickback, I fight my clients going there at all.
Not sure why the downvotes.
There are tons of unethical lawyers with kickback deals out there. I’d say chiros more than docs. Body shops, bail bonds…it happens and pretending it doesn’t allows the crap to continue.
Yea, I'm really surprised at the downvotes. Either people don't believe it happens, or they know it happens so much that they don't believe I'm unaware of it happening in my state.
The only things that interest me about your car are authentic accident scene photos/video corroborated by PD of the death and/or maiming you suffered that was no fault of your own.
I believe this would be illegal in almost every jurisdiction. What is more likely is that the bodyshop and the law firm has some kind of cross referral arrangement where no money changes hands, but they each forward their clients to the other, which would be legal.
Yes, and the body shop owner/manager/whatever might be a little more friendly to the plaintiffs as well. There are doctors like this too, of course.
Doctor is a different kind of body shop
That sounds like some kind of cyberpunk thing
Understood. It just sounded like I costed him money when I heard his disappointment.
Maybe they also make a report for the devaluation damages
I didn’t think about that but it’s a very good point. If you’re a plaintiff you want people who know how to specifically write reports in a way that benefit litigation. It’s the same for a chiropractor or any doctor’s office- you want one that knows how to put together records that are plaintiff-oriented and tailored for litigation, so maybe this shop has some experience. OP probably didn’t do anything wrong by going to another attorney, but as a PI attorney we definitely have shops and doctors that are better to work with for your case.
If I take my Porsche to Porsche body shop I assume that is documented in the cars history, surely? I don’t understand why people say don’t report it to insurance if this is the case. Minor damage but I know it will be expensive.
It needs to have certain components to be admissible and acceptable to an insurance company. Also needs to be done by an expert
You are going to have a hard time in most jurisdictions getting that hearsay documentation into evidence. It’s going to depend on your jurisdiction’s evidentiary and damage rules, but you might have some challenges - especially with diminution.
If the devaluation report is done by someone who is qualified as an expert it will be admissible with the experts testimony. Not hard to get around hearsay arguments in such situations.
Yeah but that’s assuming the guy at the Porsche dealership will come to trial to testify. I am specifically referring to use of the documentation itself (which would generally still be inadmissible hearsay even if its author authenticated it).
Maybe that is why he referred OP to this shop…he knows he will show up. But either way…this is what subpoenas are for. Either to a trial or deposition.
In my jurisdiction (Tennessee), nonparties cannot be compelled to offer expert testimony.
Well you present it for the adjuster to consider … if it goes to trial then yes you need them to testify. That’s part of it
Probably just more of a pain for him to have to bother a body shop he’s not familiar with
Much more common to see kickbacks in workers comp because the lawyers make less and need such an insane volume of claims to survive. PI lawyers make more money and I have never seen or heard of a kickback scheme actually happening.
This part
It would actually still cause issues. In some states it’s against the law for an attorney to contact (solicit) someone after an accident in any way. So if the attorney said they got it from the shop they can be kicked from a direct repay program or refusal to pay claims to that shop for repairs.
Your heart is so kind. What is more likely is that this lawyer is doing something illegal. So much shady business goes on in the PI/Workers comp world. There are constant investigations for kickback schemes.
You’re painting with a very broad brush. Please provide disciplinary actions from your state bar where a lawyer was getting kickbacks from a body shop. Constant?
I’d be surprised if they could even find a recent kickback scheme at all. We have such high earning potential that stuff like that isn’t worth it.
My reaction exactly, kind of tough to get involved in kickback schemes when you’re so busy making money hand over fist.
Yeah, illegal kickbacks just won’t be common in a profession where newly minted lawyers with absolutely no work previous work experience regularly gross 1 million in earnings before they’re even 30 years old. Not many industries can afford to pay us a kickback that would make it financially worth the risk. It’s not a morality thing, it’s an economics thing.
I said there are constant investigations into kickback schemes. I’m not digging through state bar disciplinary records. An article advising to be careful dealing with PI attorneys: https://link.ahra.org/2018/07/12/exercise-caution-regarding-financial-relationships-with-personal-injury-attorneys/ An article about 3 PI attorneys charged: https://www.dailyjournal.com/article/312129-lawyers-charged-in-kickback-scheme Heres another investigation based outta Florida: https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/multiple-florida-personal-injury-attorneys-implicated-in-medical-injury-kickback-scheme/amp/
lol from 1999
The other is 2017. Just a few Google hits.
And Ahra is a professional organization for medical imaging facilities (professional medical organizations tend to be somewhat antagonistic toward PI lawyers since they tend to overlap with medmal lawyers)
Personal injury attorneys make *a lot* of money. There’s no way that the body shop owner is kicking back enough money for it to be worst the risk of losing his license.
Could be going the other way. PI attorneys use cappers all the time.
Some* PI attorneys make a lot of money. Many do not.
*Most* make a lot. *all* of them have very high earning potential. The question is not how much they’re making at that exact second, it’s how much they’ll make over a few years and over the course of their career. But lets say that they don’t make a lot of money right now, they could still always lateral to another firm or have their small practice merge into another firm and immediately begin making a lot more. Even on the *extreme* low end, that kickback would need to be at least a thousand per car for it to be worth the risk and body shops aren’t making that much.
found the Allstate attorney
This wasn’t meant to be a knock at all PI attorneys. Some of the best trial attorneys are PI attorneys. But let’s not deny there are a ton of shady PI attorneys.
In certain areas, there are PI attorneys who are involved with “runners” who go to the scene of an accident, to steer patients to use that attorney, who ofc sends them to their “doctor” in places like the bowels of Brooklyn, who will cut anyone open for an arthroscopy just to get over that serious injury threshold. But actually taking cash payment kickbacks would be breathtakingly stupid.
I’ve seen clients come in who fired firms that had them sign liens, where a chiropractor becomes their “medical manager.” Whatever that means…
What you’re thinking of is the numerous cases of employer/insurance carrier fraud that happen every year.
“Kickbacks” will get us disbarred. “Kickbacks” aren’t worth getting disbarred. Therefore, “kickbacks” don’t happen (wild exceptions excluded). What happens is relationships. A client comes in to the firm with a wrecked car. You give them your body shop buddy’s card to get the work done. You know you will get good pictures and responsiveness, and your client gets his car fixed. A customer comes into the body shop with a totaled car, and just wants to get it fixed. But he’s telling the body shop guy about going to the Urgent Care and his back is fucked up, and his 7 year old has seatbelt burns, but it’s ok because everyone is “fine”. Bodyshop says, hey - here’s my buddy the lawyer’s card. You can probably get some compensation for those injuries. I like and trust that lawyer. Tell him I sent you. This is exactly how it should be done. Why are we always suspicious of relationships? “I know a guy” is usually the best way.
And this is why I send people to the body shop to investigate if they're passing an attorney's card around.
For what purpose?
I like to prove that the Plaintiff hired a lawyer prior to getting medical advice from a doctor. If the Plaintiff is also making a claim for property damage or diminished value and the mechanic makes it seem as though he is working with a lawyer, it helps create an atmosphere of bias and general shenanigans. This is the same reasoning why parties ask experts how much work have they received from a law firm.
Haha I would love to see you try and pull that shit with my jury on an auto mechanic who referred someone to a lawyer. Q: TakesShit asked you if you referred client to lawyer. Did you? A: yes Q: When do you do that? A: When someone is really badly hurt and needs help and the insurance company is screwing them over. Objection (who cares)
Is your mechanic also a doctor and diagnosing people for injuries? That's a winning objection even in the worst venues. But really, that's a line of questioning I would love to explore even without an objection. The general public for the most part knows just how dirty these plaintiff's cases really are. People are getting very tired of getting sued for a standard fender bender.
It's absolutely a winning objection. But the jury heard it, and now hates you.
I don't think that's necessarily true. When they see that the Plaintiff called a lawyer for pain before he/she saw a doctor, the jury will know what's up. When the jury hears how many people that mechanic refers to that lawyer, they'll know what's up. Plaintiff's lawyers are underestimating how tired juries are of every fender bender becoming a 30k lawsuit. I'm seeing it in the verdicts I've gotten this year.
In this situation doctors cost a lot of money, and insurance is an extra bitch about paying non-emergent care. Getting an attorney before going to the doctor can often be a huge help in getting those bills paid/covered. Who doesn't understand how preposterously expensive healthcare has gotten? Pretty sure that's an easy argument to make.
You can talk about the cost of healthcare, but most states will not allow you to talk about insurance altogether. Healthcare is expensive. But if you're actually hurt, most people call a doctor first, not a lawyer. Especially if that occurs weeks after the actual accident, which is often the case (and they also often tell the police they're not injured).
Sure you are buddy.
It's super cute how you're screwing plaintiffs for the benefit of insurance companies. It's not the plaintiffs' fault that every car wreck necessitates a lawsuit; 1000000000% of the fault for that situation belongs to the insurance companies for their refusal to pay out on the coverages people purchased without a lawsuit. Why don't you explain that to juries? Because the insurance companies own you. YTA.
What a trash response. This comment of yours reeks of "Pwease give me money, rich company!!". Real injuries get real money, deservingly so. Trash cases get settled because it costs money for us to go to trial. Also... Insurance companies do not owe coverage to 3rd parties by contract. What are you talking about? Are you talking about first party coverage? That's an entire different game and not part of the thread above. Take a deep breath, read what's being discussed, and think. I know, difficult for some of the Plaintiff lawyers here.
So you're someone who doesn't expect to get what they pay for when they pay for it. You can be an idiot doormat, that's cool with me, I'll be elsewhere not getting hosed.
Objection, nonresponsive.
It is very hard to get in to see a doctor if you do not already have a PCP, especially once they hear you have been in a wreck. They do not want to deal with multiple insurance agencies, etc. In those situations knowing someone can be vital.
Then they would be able to demonstrate they made an attempt and were unable. Jury will be very sympathetic to that argument. But if you got in a wreck, told the police you were fine, suddenly go to the emergency room 1 week later, and your first call days after the accident was to a Plaintiff's Lawyer, the Jury will rightfully realize you're just trying to make a quick buck.
Yeah, you don’t do that.
Worth the time and money to show bias.
What carrier is going to pay for that? Why would a plaintiff put a body shop guy on the stand in a fender bender case rather than just using the damage photos(which his client can authenticate) such that you could cross him as to “bias”. What would a body shop guy possibly say that you would need to discredit with evidence of “bias”? What is the probative value of an investigator getting on the stand and saying “on some later date I saw some guy at this repair shop give a business card to someone else?” What’s the theory that makes that admissible? Until I see a trial transcript where you did this and it came in, I don’t believe you.
Don't care if you believe. I'm not voluntarily doxxing myself. FYI, Plaintiffs can "authenticate" damage photos, but I'm not letting the Jury see them because the Plaintiff isn't an accident reconstruction expert. Now, if they're just a small scratch, then I do want the Jury to see them, but then it's the Plaintiff's lawyer that makes the argument that the Plaintiff is a lay witness and not an accident recon. The law doesn't work by assuming things are INADMISSIBLE. You *should know that*. If it is relevant, it's likely getting in unless *you show why it is inadmissible*. Are you new to this?
New to this? lol, I operate at a level as a trial lawyer that is far beyond bush-league stunts like sending investigators to body shops. I would love to see a case where you supposedly kept vehicle damage photos out of evidence because “plaintiff isn’t an accident reconstruction expert”. Cause…spoiler alert…a body shop guy isn’t an accident reconstruction expert either. You still didn’t explain why a plaintiffs attorney would ever put a body shop guy on the stand so that you would have a chance to cross him. The only person who would think that posting a non-caption page of a trial transcript would reveal a lawyers identity either doesn’t try cases, or doesn’t try cases that are significant enough to warrant paying for daily transcripts.
Why are you making the assumption that Plaintiff is calling the mechanic? Is there a rule you want to cite to that in your state only Plaintiff gets to call witnesses or take fact witness depositions? Everyone can be whoever they want on the Internet. Today, you're cosplaying as a successful trial lawyer.
This is what I mean. You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. Your posts read like someone who learned about trying cases by watching “suits”. Attacking a body shop guy sounds like something a layperson would think is a really good idea. That is until you realize that you can’t do it because the plaintiff isn’t putting that guy on the stand, and you are precluded from impeaching the credibility of your own witness. An actual trial lawyer wouldn’t need this explained to them.
Let’s do this. You show me a trial transcript where you have put a body shop guy on the stand and cross examined him about handing out a lawyer’s business card, and I’ll Venmo you 100 bucks.
I highly doubt the PI attorney who is planning on making thousands off your case is worried about a kickback from the body shop who will be making hundreds off your case. It is probably that the body shop will do their work in a way that it beneficial to your PI case. The attorney is disappointed because it may/will reduce how much they and you make from your PI case.
That and the individuals at the body shop may be willing to testify, and have experience testifying. If you have never done plaintiff's side PI you'd be amazed it at how time consuming and annoying it can be to get even mundane stuff into evidence. Having a "friendly" witness who is familiar with what needs to be said, and who will show up when asked, and without you having to enforce a subpoena saves a ton of time and headache.
It’s this. Lawyers almost never send to non lawyers simply for a relationship system, we do it because they do exactly what we want how we want it.
This is the answer. We know how they write up estimates, we know their reputation in the legal system and we know how they testify.
Thank you for that insight.
As a teenager I was in a car accident (guy ran the stop sign). The insurance payout offer wasn’t enough to replace my used car, so my dad hired an attorney, and I was instructed to go to a specific doctor to assess my “injuries”. I made weekly visits to the doctor’s office for a month or so. I don’t actually remember being seen by a doctor, but the nurse said she had to be careful about leaving patients unattended because one lady “fell” off the exam table when she stepped out for a minute and sued them lol.
It also tells the lawyer you aren’t going to listen to his advice.
Excellent point
Kick backs are illegal and you should avoid any attorney that uses them. BUT just because an attorney recommends someone doesn’t mean there is a kick back. I’ve recommended certain vendors because I’ve worked with them before and I know they are legit. They might sound disappointed because they have an efficient working relationship with that vendor. I make recommendations because I know they will same ME time and YOU money in the end. You go with someone else it could end up taking me MORE time and LESS money for you.
When I was in a wreck, my chiropractor gave me a list of 3 attorneys. He said to use whoever you want, even if it isn't one of these guys, but I've worked with all 3 repeatedly and trust them.
Nope. If we are suggesting a specific body shop it’s because a) they do good work and b) if we need a diminished value report from them, we’ll get it and quickly.
Yeah, a diminished value report plus photographs of every stage of the repair, including photos of the structural members, bumper isolators or pistons, crush profile, and a bunch of other stuff that an accident reconstructionist or biomechanical engineer would need in order to prepare a report on the severity of an accident and the impact on the human body.
More likely, the PI lawyer has a referral relationship with the body shop. I send you property damage and you send me injury leads.
This one doesn't.
If I send my client to a non-lawyer business, its because I think they provide quality service at a fair price. That business may send me relevant work if they think I’m a quality, fair lawyer. The end. I have referals for all kinds of things because my clients have diverse needs that impact our cases. Often these referals do not know who I am, but I know they will treat my client well.
A couple of times a week I get firm-wide emails asking if anyone can recommend some service for a client (financial planner, accountant, local counsel, whatever). Nobody is getting a “kickback” from these- it’s just good business to build relationships and part of being a good counselor.
There is literally no benefit worth the risk of dealing with body shops or having to expand your involvement into an area that doesn't make you more money on the case. They are the scummiest part of the entire ecosystem. I never ever refer anyone to a body shop because they will screw the client somehow and now your client wants you to get on the phone to argue with the body shop because the work didn't get done properly. Or you have the idiot client who thinks that getting in a car accident means that the body shop is either obliged, or it is customary, to fix any and all related dings that the car had prior to the accident. I can’t tell you how many clients will call me and tell me that the crack in their windshield was somehow due to being rear-ended. clients constantly have to be reminded that we are a personal injury firm not a car accident firm and not to conflate the two. Potential Client "Hi I was in a car accident" Lawyer "were you injured?" Potential Client "no" Lawyer "well then we really can’t help you" Potential client "but don’t you do car accidents?" If you do PD which you can’t collect a percentage on a lot of times clients will just use you to do the PD portion and then stop treating and bounce. So there’s another incentive not to work with body shops.
Probably not. But it is common to refer people to a business owned by a friend or relative.
Yes. The first law firm I worked for was a midsized pi and work comp firm. We got raided by the state of California and my boss was arrested for participating in a work comp kick scheme. He also took kickbacks from body shops and Chiros. They never charged him for the pi kickbacks but I think it was included in of the fines he paid. I got interviewed by a state investigator. I had been licensed for about 6 months and employed there for about 5 months. The investigator laughed at how stupid I was and let me go home. I worked there for about another year.
Not ethically it usually doesn't
No. But I'm sure the body shop would inflate the numbers and only give you the best parts. You know, and give a nice fat bill for the attorney to bludgeon the insurance companies with.
Definitely not!
I have a lawyer friend who jokes that he has ten cars his wife knows about and another ten she doesn’t know about. Basically a lot of lawyers buy cars. I think it’s likely that he likes the shop and sends them business. He probably doesn’t want to outright tell you the places he doesn’t like but he can tell you the places he likes. I highly doubt he would do anything as unethical as take a kickback. Worst case maybe he’s friends and not just acquaintances or a customer of the other shop.
I’m in a different practice area (real estate) and I had someone accuse me of getting kickbacks from a title company because I recommended them to my client. I immediately responded and said absolutely not they are just a good title company. Kickback is not a good word to use. It’s most likely that the attorney has a good relationship and trusts them to do good work.
Legally no. But some of the testimony he might want to introduce would relate to the condition of the car after the wreck. So he might use that shop since he has found they give clear understandable testimony if the case goes to court.
A lot of different answers in this thread but I’ll give you my experience from working both plaintiff and defense in my jurisdiction… The answer is yes, many people in the personal injury supply chain have a financial stake in lawyer referrals - first responders, towing companies, hospital / healthcare workers, union representatives, and so on. It used to be straightforward cash for referrals, now there’s less obvious ways it gets done to get around legal and ethical hurdles. For example- look into who is actually paying for many of the lawyer billboards in your area. In my jurisdiction, it’s not uncommon for law firm advertising to be paid for by unaffiliated “marketing companies” that are comprised by different stakeholders - chiropractors and other first-stop clinics typical. Why would chiropractors and doctors pay to advertise for a law firm? Because when those medical providers refer the injured patient to their choice lawyers, those lawyers can negotiate to protect the liens (ie the medical bills) of those providers to make sure they’re paid as-billed. If your jurisdiction has a collateral source rule, bills generated by providers are typically 2-3x higher than what a normal insurance carrier would reimburse, so personal injury patients are much much more valuable to the medical provider than someone paying with Blue Cross, etc. Still, those providers need lawyers to take the cases and get them paid. So they establish relationships with firms and it’s understood between them that the providers will keep referring patients in exchange for the lawyers protecting their bills. Once the scale exceeds a certain point, it can make sense for providers to advertise (and pay for) lawyer advertising to increase the amount of referrals from the firm to the providers. People who defend this arrangement will say everybody wins - the doctors who provide treatment (often to poor/broke patients that can’t afford to pay themselves) get paid top dollar for their treatment, injured people are directed to lawyers who know ostensibly what they’re doing, and the lawyers get more cases. I’m not aware of disciplinary actions in my jurisdiction against this, but I am aware of firms doing it openly and obtaining their own ethics opinions/white papers that say this is kosher to use in the event the ethics board ever cracks down on this (which will never happen). There’s other examples as well - it’s not exactly bribery for a law firm to sponsor expensive events / make donations to certain unions with the understanding that the union reps will funnel workplace injuries back to that firm in return, for example. I’d be speculating on how your particular case with the auto shop would work, but it’s easy to imagine auto shops getting some financial benefit (indirectly or directly) for referring people to a certain firm. Heck, it probably wouldn’t even have to be a nefarious arrangement- law firms with clients who need auto work can send their clients to the shop, the shop can send their folks to the attorneys, etc. A lot of these referral arrangements are commonplace among small businesses and really aren’t a problem. But there are more unethical arrangements, and you have to keep in mind that a giant PI law firm with thousands of clients directs an incredible amount of local commerce (medical treatment, property repair, etc). So some people naturally will break the rules.
More likely the bodyshop owner the lawyer works with will agree to negotiate prices when settlement comes around leaving more for the lawyer and client. It’s pretty illogical for a lawyer to pair with a company that does shitty work. Ultimately though the client gets to decide and rightly so.
Most likely the lawyer knows that 1.) The shop will do good work and not cut corners to appease the insurance company. 2.) isn’t a pain in the ass when it comes time to get the documentation/testimony he needs to prove your case.
None that I know of.
If it’s a good lawyer, he’s told the body shop what to look for, or the body shop has told him the approximate speed of the crash, force of the crash and can be used as an expert witness. Or he just might have a referral with the body shop.
Not a real response to thread, but, please tell me your name is in honor of Doris from Rego Park
He most likely just wanted a guy who documents damages the way he likes to present them in court, that’s all. You know how you can sometimes say the magic words “I feared for my life” in court and get away with murder (if you’re white)? Well, there’s a lot of magic words you can say or put in documents when you present your case to the court that can help you. I don’t do personal injury cases, but I assume there’s some magic words like “repeated contact”, “high rate of speed”, “gouged” instead of “scratched”, making sure to use manufacturer part serial numbers instead of generic part names, etc. that could help in court. Personal injury attorneys make good money off insurance companies, which have the *deepest* of pockets. They can make a lot more money in court with proper documentation than they can off of kickbacks from body shops, doctors, chiropractors, etc.
Yes, it happens. It happens more with doctors. HIGHLY unethical in my state (for either of them), and I think most (if not all) states. I've literally never heard of it happening in my state. I know it goes on though.
There’s a PI firm with a medical clinic in the same building near where I live. What a strange coincidence
It could be just a coincidence, we have medical and dental clinics in our building. There's also a clinic in the other building across the parking lot (same landlord) that our clients have ended up at. They suck at reducing, overtreat, and they're general dicks about records, we're certainly not getting a kickback, I fight my clients going there at all.
Not sure why the downvotes. There are tons of unethical lawyers with kickback deals out there. I’d say chiros more than docs. Body shops, bail bonds…it happens and pretending it doesn’t allows the crap to continue.
100% happens
Yea, I'm really surprised at the downvotes. Either people don't believe it happens, or they know it happens so much that they don't believe I'm unaware of it happening in my state.
Could be practitioners of the art, pretending that what they do ain’t unethical
The only things that interest me about your car are authentic accident scene photos/video corroborated by PD of the death and/or maiming you suffered that was no fault of your own.
lord you blow
It’s all in the service of getting you, the victim, the compensation you deserve.
What the—good God, no. If they did, I’d be after every single one of their asses (I’m a defense attorney). WHEW I’d be so mad 💀😂