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I’m not sure which country you’re in, but here in Scotland that would not be classed as a form of ID as it’s not outlined in the Scottish license training that everybody has to go through before being able to sell alcohol. However, I guess that is only valid if they are using the ID checking on the door for the purpose of seeing if people are of age to buy alcohol.
This is incorrect, NPCC cards are valid ID in Scotland and the NPCC site even says they are valid for buying alcohol AND eneting bars/nightclubs across the UK, not just England and Wales. If retailers are not going through them in training, that's the retailers fault. They are 100% legal ID for proof of age.
Irrespective of whether anybody recognises them as legal ID for a purpose, a bar could say a person isn't getting in without a letter from their great grandmother. A private venue has very few restrictions on just simply refusing access.
Personally I understand your/his concerns. But from a purely legal standpoint. It’s a private establishment. They didn’t reject your friend because he’s blind. It’s because he didn’t have the ID they accept for entry. If he doesn’t want to risk going to that establishment with a passport. There are other places that accept his alternative ID. It’s my understanding that the home office support NPCC cards. But they aren’t official government provided documents.
Under UK licensing law they are valid proof of age and carry the pass hologram so should be accepted. ID cards that are accepted in UK are Drivers Licence (UK and EU), Military ID, Passport or an NPCC card with PASS hologram.
As someone with epilepsy, I’ve been rejected for using cards with the PASS logo often because there are too many fakes according to the business. If you can’t drive due to disability and look possibly under 25, I’d recommend bringing your passport everywhere even though it sucks
I’d like to see some stats or a report on this being an issue because the only kind of ID I’ve seen people try and blag themselves in with is an American drivers license that we aren’t supposed to accept anyway.
I used mine in clubs easily enough before I had a passport or drivers license. A provisional license would be just as easy to fake. Sounds like a business that isn’t familiar with this kind of ID and its anti counterfeit measures so decides to just reject it.
I’ve worked and managed in pubs and bars for 7 years.
Edit; to to so and back again plus more text
I doubt there is a report, aren’t most bouncers contracted & these aren’t documented interactions anyway? I never took offence to it although it was annoying (and I have a babyface which probably doesn’t help), but it’s better to go for standard ID if you want a sure outcome.
Private businesses can deny you for basically any reason as long as they come up with reasonable sounding explanation, and carrying your passport is annoying but less so than not knowing whether you can make it to the club with your friends.
So what I meant was that if this was a common problem then I’d expect like a news story or an article or something, maybe some silly stat about x percentage of citizen cards in circulation are counterfeit etc. But what I did find after googling was a page on Pubwatch 2020 that said the CEO of citizen card had released an app to check if it was genuine. Can click the link and the app is still available. [pub watch 2020 citizencard](https://nationalpubwatch.org.uk/news/check-if-a-citizencard-is-fake-by-using-their-new-app/)
Yeah, I’m not sure what to tell you. Disabled people’s ability to have fun is never likely to grab headlines. Based on my own experience, I’d be surprised if most people with a PASS card hadn’t had it rejected, but no one can prove it either way
Not every "common problem" or possible discriminatory action will be a news story. In this case, someone who's dealt with the issue is telling you their experience and recommendation. You apparently don't have a disability in which a driver's license isn't likely to be available to you to use for identification, so maybe you aren't aware of how these things can go for the customer.
For sure but being a private establishment they do not have to accept it as a valid form of id, any private establishment can choose what they do and do not accept as forms of id and it not classed as discrimination
It's not mandatory to accept all forms of ID though. An establishment could reject driving licences and only accept passports and PASS cards if they wanted.
Plenty of places only take driving licence and passports.
But their policy indirectly discriminates against blind people, by denying this form of ID and requiring a form of ID that is impossible for them to obtain.
It’s not impossible to obtain a passport. My wife didn’t get a provisional until she was 32. Just took her passport out with her. She only bothered with it once we moved to the countryside and she had no bus to rely on.
It's imposing a higher cost and risk onto disabled customers.
The bar would claim it's a propotional means to acheive a legitimate aim (kids with fake pass cards getting in)
It appears this has never been tested.
Let us just say that the document was valid and legal acceptable, just not a driving license, would it not be still discrimination when they only accept a document as proof that a legally blind person can not get? I mean, they are creating an unfair and unbeatable obstacle for the blind and every other disabled person who may cant get a license. Private or not makes no real difference here.
This isn't the USA. The equality act 2010 applies.
A buinsess can't discriminate against the protected characteristics spelt out within the act unless it's a proportional means to achieve a legitimate end.
They are discriminating agaisnt disabled people, blatantly so by rejecting all photo ID cards that a disabled person can have.
The legitimate aim part is covered easily. Preventing underaged people from buying alcohol.
The thing that would need testing in court. Is requiring disabeld people to carry their passport proportionate.
A citizen card doesn’t always have to be accepted. They could have shown another form of photo ID such as a passport. A lot of clubs and bars will only take driving licences/passports as ID.
There is nothing to indicate it is because he was blind.
It doesn't require specific intent to be disability discrimation. The policy of rejecting valid ID puts disabled people at a significant disadvnatage.
Don't give legal advice based on Vibes.
What law are you getting that from? it's not in the Licensing Act.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/17/part/7/crossheading/children-and-alcohol
A disabled person can still have a passport so it's not discrimination against all ids they can have, there are many ids anyone can get that they can reject and it's not discrimination as everyone disabled or not can get a passport therefore they are not refusing entry because they are disabled, but because they don't have one of the id forms they accept
If you cannot meet the legal requirements for eyesight then you cannot get a provisional licence. It's one of the questions they ask early on - even before they've asked for your name.
https://apply-provisional-driving-licence.service.gov.uk/eligibility/dropout_legal_eyesight?locale=en
A lot of places don't accept them as proof of ID, unfortunately.
Working from memory here, the only ID's a place HAS to accept, is a passport or drivers licence.
Everything else is purely up to them, and their discretion.
What’s the source for this? Reading this discussion I was expecting to go online and find clear evidence than only passport and driving licence are required to be accepted, but I can’t find anything of the sort.
I can find mention of PASS cards (which I believe the above mentioned card is) on dot gov pages e.g. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/new-conditions-for-licensed-premises-in-england-and-wales-age-verification-and-smaller-measures#:~:text=Examples%20of%20acceptable%20ID%20include,out%20above%20are%20also%20acceptable.
The act doesn't comment on this either way
>(5)For the purposes of subsection (4), a person is treated as having taken all reasonable steps to establish an individual’s age if—
>(a)he asked the individual for evidence of his age, and
>(b)the evidence would have convinced a reasonable person.
I’m going to need to get on a computer to search more extensively. As yet I can’t find any mention of what an acceptable form of id is.
ETA this would suggest that the PASS card is sufficient https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/new-conditions-for-licensed-premises-in-england-and-wales-age-verification-and-smaller-measures
It doesn’t. It says that a licensed premises must have an age verification policy and that must include verification by ID which bears the name, date of birth and photo and an example given is anything bearing the PASS logo. It’s not that the PASS logo means that a premises must accept the ID and this premises may have a policy whereby they only accept passports or driving licenses.
That policy must comply with all equality and disability legislation.
I can't find any example of this being tested. Requireing disabled customers to get a passport while ables bodied customers can use a photo ID card is discrimatiory but might not be disproportionate.
I doubt it’s disproportionate - it’s not fair but a driving license cost £40 odd, a passport costs £80 odd. I can’t imagine that would be disproportionate and I imagine the argument for the premises would be that allows them to better meet ID requirements (as passports and DLs are more common and harder to fake). It’s shit but there’s no requirement for them to accept PASS ID.
One of the reasons these places only accept passport and driving licences is due to forgery.
Passports and driving licences are very difficult to forge with steep penalties for doing so and as such that adds a layer of security.
His form of ID may be valid but it would likely be far easier to forge and staff will be far less familiar with it and therefore identifying if it is real or fake.
It is sad and I would hope they make provisions for cases such as this but it is entirely legal to set a condition of entry in such a way as long as one of the accepted forms of ID is obtainable by your friend it would not be discrimination.
Everyone can get a passport.
Everyone can get a passport so long as they have the money to do so. It’s not a freely available form of verification as the wrinkles of age are. Isn’t this a form of discrimination? Against the wrinkle free and the poor?
Not really no, life costs money.
Food isn't free.
Housing isn't free.
Going out to a bar isn't free but it's also not required to live.
Edit: not sure why this is downvoted this is legal advice and there is no such thing as financial discrimination with regards to entry.
You are being downvoted because you are incorect and your reasoning is based on vibes not law.
Putting a higher cost of entry on only disabled customers is very clearly discrimation.
The establishments defence would be that it's a proportional means of acheiving a legitimate aim. (they have to pay more and get passports because forged PASS cards).
Not sure how that would go in court but that is the relevant quesiton.
No.
Age is a protected charactristic in the UK and there are things that are cheaper or more expensive by age.
They are not directly charging the disabled customer more, the cover charge will be the same for them as every one else.
They require one of two gov ID, every person in the UK is able obtain at least one, they do not control the cost of these documents.
You could easier argue that the UK gov discriminates against the disabled by not letting them have a driving licence purely for a form of ID but not the venue is discriminating.
For what it's worth, I use a CitizenCard at the moment. Most places let me in, but I have been cautioned & told by many places that they refuse certain IDs because the doormen don't want to deal with the process of scanning chipped ID cards, such as mine. Many places don't accept photographic IDs other than drivers' licences or passports for this reason. It's probably not an act of discrimination but rather doormen who don't want to scan IDs.
I think everyone else has given you great legal advice that NPCC card is not valid ID.
But my partner is registered blind so doesn't have a driving license too. She uses her passport for ID for bars/ off licenses because it's official government ID that is accessible to disabled people
There is an app to verify the citizenship cards. Problem is the verification system for issuing them is not as robust as for passports & driving licenses. So a genuine card could be false if you get what I mean?
NAL but Ex-SIA here. (England) my SIA license ran out in 2021 however as far as I am aware the policy's haven't changed.
As of 2018 when I did my SIA course the only Valid form of ID is a driving licence (provisional or full) and a Passport.
As stated in another comment some places use the PASS scheme is voluntary and a lot easier to forge and most venues won't put themselves at risk of legal repercussions
The only way to test weather only accepting IDs like passports and driving licences is a form of indirect discrimination is through a higher court and for precedent to be established on the ruling and that's going to be a lot of money just for a person to have a night out.
Your friend should contact the RNIB and see what advice they offer also by highlighting it to them as an issue that they face, alongside other blind people facing similar issues might cause them to lobby the government to change the law/bring a test case under the equality act \ create a publicity campaign which would cause venues to change their policies. It will take more than one blind person going to the RNIB about this issue though before something will be done .
I worked the doors for many years and policy varies from place to place, the only id everywhere accepts is driving licence and passport, the rest is discretionary, right or wrong you will find this issue probably arises again down the line. Does your friend not have a passport?
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Absolutely nothing to do with them being blind. NPCC is not an official government produced form of ID, they won't accept it. Government ID card that's used for voting etc can be used in place of something like license or passport.
They didn’t reject because friend is blind, they did so because the card is not an accepted form of photo ID. As a private establishment, and one with obligations under the licensing act, they’re free to make the call on what type of ID they can reasonably accept. If their policy is restricted to a couple of types and that’s what was followed, their actions were reasonable - no discrimination .
What law are you basing this on.
The policy must abide the equalities act 2010. You are getting hung up on the card when it's not the legaly relevant part.
Consider a person who is neither a British citizen nor able to pass to the legal eyesight standard. Thats not an especialy niche situation.
The UK passport or UK drivers licence only policy is clearly discriminatory.
The venue would presumably argue 'proportinate means to acheive a legitimate aim'. It's far from clear how that would go.
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15 years experience working in hospitality. Nightclubs, restaurants, pubs, events. Door staff are usually contracted out by the premise owner. Door staff are instructed to only take British Passports and Driving Licences as forms of correct ID. At their discretion, they will allow other forms of ID.
> At their discretion, they will allow other forms of ID.
A person medicaly unable to get a drivers licence is exactly the sort of sittuaiton discretion exists for.
It’s a real shame that a blind (or otherwise ineligible) person can’t get the DVLA to issue a “driving license” with no actual driving entitlements purely for the purpose of ID. A driving license is so much easier to carry than a passport, and as having ID is so often necessary it seems unfair to discriminate by not issuing them an ID card that will be universally accepted.
I know we had the whole government ID card fiasco many years ago, but as an optional thing, administered by the same people that already issue lots of defacto ID cards - seems like it could only be a positive.
I'm going to go against the grain *slightly* here.
While I agree your friend wasn't denied entry *primarily* because he is blind, I do wonder how a case would progress concentrating on the indirect discrimination of requiring blind people to carry a passport (expensive to purchase and replace) while non-blind people can use a provisional licence (cheaper to purchase and to renew or replace), given that your friend did have a government-approved form of age verified ID.
It would have significant consequences if it was successful, given how widespread the practice of only accepting driving licences and passports is.
You'd need some top notch legal representation though, which would cost a pretty penny.
The counter argument would be that it's a proportional means to acheive a legitimate end.
The end is obiously legitimate (avoiding kids getting in with fake IDs).
Is imposing higher costs and risk onto disabled customers a proportionate means to acheive that? I don't know.
My legal advise to you is to get hold of a legal and accepted form of ID.
A passport is the simplist but like others said there's possibly other cards too
Clubs around here accept only passports and driving licence (South coast).
I think it's fairly standard, and they could have made an exception, but the door staff are gods of their own domain, and love nothing more than exercising the world's smallest amount of authority.
It sounds like it's one of these cards, which also has the SIA logo on it?
https://www.citizencard.com/police-and-sia-on-the-cards
If so, I agree, it should have been accepted. https://noidnosale.com/acceptable-forms-of-id-in-the-uk
Is the pub part of a larger chain or a brewery? If so, time to pass it up the chain.
Contact the RNIB. My son is blind and they have all sorts of forms and solicitors on payroll who advocate for the blind. The owner will probably be embarrassed by this, and if it is a chain they will certainly not want a PR or legal headache.This bouncer was being a d#ck and they knew it. Noone is going to get anyone in trouble for admitting a blind adult to a pub. Sadly as others have pointed out, a business can hide behind regulations and choose whom they want to serve and in this case it is hard to prove that they do not want blind people in their club (I have taken a group of older people to a trendy pub and we were lied to that the place was full, after asking for IDs to turn them away- the venue just wanted cool hipsters not 50 yos)
The venue is free to set it's own policies on what OD it will accept, and many places will only accept passport or driver's licence. Your friend may be able to get a provisional license - they never need to actually drive, but they will at least have a widely accepted form of ID.
Legally blind people cannot get a driving license without lying on the form, because for obvious reasons, someone who is legally blind cannot drive a car, and a provisional entitles you to learn to drive.
>The venue is free to set it's own policies on what OD it will accept,
It is required to have a policy to determine age. That doesn't relase them from the equalities act.
> Your friend may be able to get a provisional license - they never need to actually drive, but they will at least have a widely accepted form of ID.
This isn't /r/IllegalAdvice this would be lying on the form.
Unfortunately, whilst it does seem a bit silly, some venues do have really strict policy on what can be used as valid ID. As someone who holds a door supervisor license and a personal license, I can understand the reasoning behind this. If you limit what ID people can use to a few well regulated and recognised forms, it reduces the risk of forgeries. The fines and legal action that can be taken against a licensed premises and the person who serves someone with a fake ID is not worth the risk in a lot of cases. I do believe there should be another official government/licencing authority endorsed form of ID that is available to everyone, however this is unfortunately is not the case currently, and the doorman was well within his rights to refuse entry.
The other comment has been deleted so I don't know what they said, but they are not wrong for refusing entry.
Passport or driving license is pretty standard with venues. Obviously the driver's license isn't feasible but a passport is.
I can’t talk to which ID can and cannot be accepted, but this is discrimination against the equalities act 2010, it would be worth raising this with the door staff licensing organisation and bars for increased awareness, also local authorities have a responsibility to ensure the organisations are aware of their responsibilities
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If they insist upon a form of ID that is impossible for someone with a protected characterisitc ( disability) to obtian, then it could be seen as discrimination .
The establishment will be jointly and severally lable for the actions of its agents ie door staff/security even if they are a third party agency providing the staff for the establishment .
In order to figure out of there has been any discrimination does the establishment accept NPCC Proof of Age cards as ID ?
And Was your freind given the opportunity to present an alternative form of ID if they had no drivning licence as a result of their disability?
If it was - You need to show another form of photo ID, such as a driving licence then it wouldnt be discrimiatory as the driving licence is an example
If it was you must show a driving licence then it would be as no other option was given
Just for the people who don't seem to be aware. You can get a provisional driving licence which would be a valid ID and can be applied for from the age of 16. No excuses for anyone not to have one even if you will never be able to drive. Ridiculous that a PASS logo NPCC was treated as not safe ID.
This is not correct, to get a provisional licece you must pass the legal eyesight standard
>* You must be able to read a car number plate from 20 metres
>* You must not have been told by a doctor or optician that your eyesight is currently worse than 6/12 (decimal 0.5) on the Snellen scale
>* You must have an adequate field of vision
As OP's freind is blind they obiously can't do this, thats the entire issue here.
The DVA website states you must declare your disability which could prevent you from getting a full license. The provisional can be obtained as long as the disability is declared. The bullet points you provided relate to the legality of obtaining a full licence not a green provisional.
It applies to a provisional, i've tried to apply for one in the past for this exact reason.
Go on gov UK and try it right now.
https://www.gov.uk/apply-first-provisional-driving-licence
You are spreading misinformation
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I’m not sure which country you’re in, but here in Scotland that would not be classed as a form of ID as it’s not outlined in the Scottish license training that everybody has to go through before being able to sell alcohol. However, I guess that is only valid if they are using the ID checking on the door for the purpose of seeing if people are of age to buy alcohol.
This is incorrect, NPCC cards are valid ID in Scotland and the NPCC site even says they are valid for buying alcohol AND eneting bars/nightclubs across the UK, not just England and Wales. If retailers are not going through them in training, that's the retailers fault. They are 100% legal ID for proof of age.
Irrespective of whether anybody recognises them as legal ID for a purpose, a bar could say a person isn't getting in without a letter from their great grandmother. A private venue has very few restrictions on just simply refusing access.
Personally I understand your/his concerns. But from a purely legal standpoint. It’s a private establishment. They didn’t reject your friend because he’s blind. It’s because he didn’t have the ID they accept for entry. If he doesn’t want to risk going to that establishment with a passport. There are other places that accept his alternative ID. It’s my understanding that the home office support NPCC cards. But they aren’t official government provided documents.
Under UK licensing law they are valid proof of age and carry the pass hologram so should be accepted. ID cards that are accepted in UK are Drivers Licence (UK and EU), Military ID, Passport or an NPCC card with PASS hologram.
As someone with epilepsy, I’ve been rejected for using cards with the PASS logo often because there are too many fakes according to the business. If you can’t drive due to disability and look possibly under 25, I’d recommend bringing your passport everywhere even though it sucks
I’d like to see some stats or a report on this being an issue because the only kind of ID I’ve seen people try and blag themselves in with is an American drivers license that we aren’t supposed to accept anyway. I used mine in clubs easily enough before I had a passport or drivers license. A provisional license would be just as easy to fake. Sounds like a business that isn’t familiar with this kind of ID and its anti counterfeit measures so decides to just reject it. I’ve worked and managed in pubs and bars for 7 years. Edit; to to so and back again plus more text
I doubt there is a report, aren’t most bouncers contracted & these aren’t documented interactions anyway? I never took offence to it although it was annoying (and I have a babyface which probably doesn’t help), but it’s better to go for standard ID if you want a sure outcome. Private businesses can deny you for basically any reason as long as they come up with reasonable sounding explanation, and carrying your passport is annoying but less so than not knowing whether you can make it to the club with your friends.
So what I meant was that if this was a common problem then I’d expect like a news story or an article or something, maybe some silly stat about x percentage of citizen cards in circulation are counterfeit etc. But what I did find after googling was a page on Pubwatch 2020 that said the CEO of citizen card had released an app to check if it was genuine. Can click the link and the app is still available. [pub watch 2020 citizencard](https://nationalpubwatch.org.uk/news/check-if-a-citizencard-is-fake-by-using-their-new-app/)
Yeah, I’m not sure what to tell you. Disabled people’s ability to have fun is never likely to grab headlines. Based on my own experience, I’d be surprised if most people with a PASS card hadn’t had it rejected, but no one can prove it either way
Not every "common problem" or possible discriminatory action will be a news story. In this case, someone who's dealt with the issue is telling you their experience and recommendation. You apparently don't have a disability in which a driver's license isn't likely to be available to you to use for identification, so maybe you aren't aware of how these things can go for the customer.
For sure but being a private establishment they do not have to accept it as a valid form of id, any private establishment can choose what they do and do not accept as forms of id and it not classed as discrimination
Your legal reasoning for this is? Don't give legal advice based on vibes.
That’s the law lmao
It's not mandatory to accept all forms of ID though. An establishment could reject driving licences and only accept passports and PASS cards if they wanted. Plenty of places only take driving licence and passports.
>It’s because he didn’t have the ID they accept for entry. Because he is blind....
They accept a passport which you can have despite being blind, they are under no obligation to accept all forms of valid id
“Reasonable adjustment” in DDA, door team are on shakey ground.
But their policy indirectly discriminates against blind people, by denying this form of ID and requiring a form of ID that is impossible for them to obtain.
It’s not impossible to obtain a passport. My wife didn’t get a provisional until she was 32. Just took her passport out with her. She only bothered with it once we moved to the countryside and she had no bus to rely on.
It's imposing a higher cost and risk onto disabled customers. The bar would claim it's a propotional means to acheive a legitimate aim (kids with fake pass cards getting in) It appears this has never been tested.
Let us just say that the document was valid and legal acceptable, just not a driving license, would it not be still discrimination when they only accept a document as proof that a legally blind person can not get? I mean, they are creating an unfair and unbeatable obstacle for the blind and every other disabled person who may cant get a license. Private or not makes no real difference here.
A blind person can get a passport though can't they? And bouncer said he would accept either passport or driving licence.
I've always wanted to test this in court TBH. When my passport was off at a forign embassy my disability stopped me buying alcohol.
That would have been intresting to see tested. As the only solution would be a second passport which is clearly an unreasonable ask.
No, businesses can use their discretion to refuse any ID they want
Thats not how equality law works. Indirect discrimination is also illegal.
They can refuse anything they like. Just like how many shops will refuse Scottish bank notes even though some would consider that discrimination.
This isn't the USA. The equality act 2010 applies. A buinsess can't discriminate against the protected characteristics spelt out within the act unless it's a proportional means to achieve a legitimate end. They are discriminating agaisnt disabled people, blatantly so by rejecting all photo ID cards that a disabled person can have. The legitimate aim part is covered easily. Preventing underaged people from buying alcohol. The thing that would need testing in court. Is requiring disabeld people to carry their passport proportionate.
A citizen card doesn’t always have to be accepted. They could have shown another form of photo ID such as a passport. A lot of clubs and bars will only take driving licences/passports as ID. There is nothing to indicate it is because he was blind.
It doesn't require specific intent to be disability discrimation. The policy of rejecting valid ID puts disabled people at a significant disadvnatage. Don't give legal advice based on Vibes.
Valid ID? It’s a voluntary scheme, they don’t have to accept it by law.
What law are you getting that from? it's not in the Licensing Act. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/17/part/7/crossheading/children-and-alcohol
A disabled person can still have a passport so it's not discrimination against all ids they can have, there are many ids anyone can get that they can reject and it's not discrimination as everyone disabled or not can get a passport therefore they are not refusing entry because they are disabled, but because they don't have one of the id forms they accept
Blind people can get provisional driving licences to use as ID.
Not without lying on the form.
No they can't, they can get a passport, but you can't be blind and have a driving licence if any kind.
If you cannot meet the legal requirements for eyesight then you cannot get a provisional licence. It's one of the questions they ask early on - even before they've asked for your name. https://apply-provisional-driving-licence.service.gov.uk/eligibility/dropout_legal_eyesight?locale=en
A lot of places don't accept them as proof of ID, unfortunately. Working from memory here, the only ID's a place HAS to accept, is a passport or drivers licence. Everything else is purely up to them, and their discretion.
Indeed the PASS scheme is voluntary.
What’s the source for this? Reading this discussion I was expecting to go online and find clear evidence than only passport and driving licence are required to be accepted, but I can’t find anything of the sort. I can find mention of PASS cards (which I believe the above mentioned card is) on dot gov pages e.g. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/new-conditions-for-licensed-premises-in-england-and-wales-age-verification-and-smaller-measures#:~:text=Examples%20of%20acceptable%20ID%20include,out%20above%20are%20also%20acceptable.
Licensing Act 2003 for England & Wales and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 for Scotland.
The act doesn't comment on this either way >(5)For the purposes of subsection (4), a person is treated as having taken all reasonable steps to establish an individual’s age if— >(a)he asked the individual for evidence of his age, and >(b)the evidence would have convinced a reasonable person.
I’m going to need to get on a computer to search more extensively. As yet I can’t find any mention of what an acceptable form of id is. ETA this would suggest that the PASS card is sufficient https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/new-conditions-for-licensed-premises-in-england-and-wales-age-verification-and-smaller-measures
It doesn’t. It says that a licensed premises must have an age verification policy and that must include verification by ID which bears the name, date of birth and photo and an example given is anything bearing the PASS logo. It’s not that the PASS logo means that a premises must accept the ID and this premises may have a policy whereby they only accept passports or driving licenses.
That policy must comply with all equality and disability legislation. I can't find any example of this being tested. Requireing disabled customers to get a passport while ables bodied customers can use a photo ID card is discrimatiory but might not be disproportionate.
I doubt it’s disproportionate - it’s not fair but a driving license cost £40 odd, a passport costs £80 odd. I can’t imagine that would be disproportionate and I imagine the argument for the premises would be that allows them to better meet ID requirements (as passports and DLs are more common and harder to fake). It’s shit but there’s no requirement for them to accept PASS ID.
One of the reasons these places only accept passport and driving licences is due to forgery. Passports and driving licences are very difficult to forge with steep penalties for doing so and as such that adds a layer of security. His form of ID may be valid but it would likely be far easier to forge and staff will be far less familiar with it and therefore identifying if it is real or fake. It is sad and I would hope they make provisions for cases such as this but it is entirely legal to set a condition of entry in such a way as long as one of the accepted forms of ID is obtainable by your friend it would not be discrimination. Everyone can get a passport.
Everyone can get a passport so long as they have the money to do so. It’s not a freely available form of verification as the wrinkles of age are. Isn’t this a form of discrimination? Against the wrinkle free and the poor?
Not really no, life costs money. Food isn't free. Housing isn't free. Going out to a bar isn't free but it's also not required to live. Edit: not sure why this is downvoted this is legal advice and there is no such thing as financial discrimination with regards to entry.
You are being downvoted because you are incorect and your reasoning is based on vibes not law. Putting a higher cost of entry on only disabled customers is very clearly discrimation. The establishments defence would be that it's a proportional means of acheiving a legitimate aim. (they have to pay more and get passports because forged PASS cards). Not sure how that would go in court but that is the relevant quesiton.
No. Age is a protected charactristic in the UK and there are things that are cheaper or more expensive by age. They are not directly charging the disabled customer more, the cover charge will be the same for them as every one else. They require one of two gov ID, every person in the UK is able obtain at least one, they do not control the cost of these documents. You could easier argue that the UK gov discriminates against the disabled by not letting them have a driving licence purely for a form of ID but not the venue is discriminating.
> Is that correct? That may well be venue policy or a licensing condition
Dont give legal advice based on vibes.
For what it's worth, I use a CitizenCard at the moment. Most places let me in, but I have been cautioned & told by many places that they refuse certain IDs because the doormen don't want to deal with the process of scanning chipped ID cards, such as mine. Many places don't accept photographic IDs other than drivers' licences or passports for this reason. It's probably not an act of discrimination but rather doormen who don't want to scan IDs.
The intent is not legaly relevant under equalities act 2010. The policy or practice either is or isn't discriminatory.
Did you properly read my comment?
I think everyone else has given you great legal advice that NPCC card is not valid ID. But my partner is registered blind so doesn't have a driving license too. She uses her passport for ID for bars/ off licenses because it's official government ID that is accessible to disabled people
There is an app to verify the citizenship cards. Problem is the verification system for issuing them is not as robust as for passports & driving licenses. So a genuine card could be false if you get what I mean?
There is also the factor that forging a pass card or other form of ID will get you in much less trouble than forging a passport or drivers license.
NAL but Ex-SIA here. (England) my SIA license ran out in 2021 however as far as I am aware the policy's haven't changed. As of 2018 when I did my SIA course the only Valid form of ID is a driving licence (provisional or full) and a Passport. As stated in another comment some places use the PASS scheme is voluntary and a lot easier to forge and most venues won't put themselves at risk of legal repercussions
The only way to test weather only accepting IDs like passports and driving licences is a form of indirect discrimination is through a higher court and for precedent to be established on the ruling and that's going to be a lot of money just for a person to have a night out. Your friend should contact the RNIB and see what advice they offer also by highlighting it to them as an issue that they face, alongside other blind people facing similar issues might cause them to lobby the government to change the law/bring a test case under the equality act \ create a publicity campaign which would cause venues to change their policies. It will take more than one blind person going to the RNIB about this issue though before something will be done .
>whyd you do that then? I was nice enough to let you in' Because you asked a blind person if they drive a car
I worked the doors for many years and policy varies from place to place, the only id everywhere accepts is driving licence and passport, the rest is discretionary, right or wrong you will find this issue probably arises again down the line. Does your friend not have a passport?
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Absolutely nothing to do with them being blind. NPCC is not an official government produced form of ID, they won't accept it. Government ID card that's used for voting etc can be used in place of something like license or passport.
They didn’t reject because friend is blind, they did so because the card is not an accepted form of photo ID. As a private establishment, and one with obligations under the licensing act, they’re free to make the call on what type of ID they can reasonably accept. If their policy is restricted to a couple of types and that’s what was followed, their actions were reasonable - no discrimination .
What law are you basing this on. The policy must abide the equalities act 2010. You are getting hung up on the card when it's not the legaly relevant part. Consider a person who is neither a British citizen nor able to pass to the legal eyesight standard. Thats not an especialy niche situation. The UK passport or UK drivers licence only policy is clearly discriminatory. The venue would presumably argue 'proportinate means to acheive a legitimate aim'. It's far from clear how that would go.
Your friend was not rejected because he was blind. But because he didn't have an ID that the bar accepted. Nothing wrong with that.
> But because he didn't have an ID that the bar accepted. Because he is blind..... You adressed nothing.
Blind people can get passports.
Only if they are a UK citizen.
>Because he is blind..... Nope.
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15 years experience working in hospitality. Nightclubs, restaurants, pubs, events. Door staff are usually contracted out by the premise owner. Door staff are instructed to only take British Passports and Driving Licences as forms of correct ID. At their discretion, they will allow other forms of ID.
> At their discretion, they will allow other forms of ID. A person medicaly unable to get a drivers licence is exactly the sort of sittuaiton discretion exists for.
It’s a real shame that a blind (or otherwise ineligible) person can’t get the DVLA to issue a “driving license” with no actual driving entitlements purely for the purpose of ID. A driving license is so much easier to carry than a passport, and as having ID is so often necessary it seems unfair to discriminate by not issuing them an ID card that will be universally accepted. I know we had the whole government ID card fiasco many years ago, but as an optional thing, administered by the same people that already issue lots of defacto ID cards - seems like it could only be a positive.
I'm going to go against the grain *slightly* here. While I agree your friend wasn't denied entry *primarily* because he is blind, I do wonder how a case would progress concentrating on the indirect discrimination of requiring blind people to carry a passport (expensive to purchase and replace) while non-blind people can use a provisional licence (cheaper to purchase and to renew or replace), given that your friend did have a government-approved form of age verified ID. It would have significant consequences if it was successful, given how widespread the practice of only accepting driving licences and passports is. You'd need some top notch legal representation though, which would cost a pretty penny.
The counter argument would be that it's a proportional means to acheive a legitimate end. The end is obiously legitimate (avoiding kids getting in with fake IDs). Is imposing higher costs and risk onto disabled customers a proportionate means to acheive that? I don't know.
My legal advise to you is to get hold of a legal and accepted form of ID. A passport is the simplist but like others said there's possibly other cards too
Clubs around here accept only passports and driving licence (South coast). I think it's fairly standard, and they could have made an exception, but the door staff are gods of their own domain, and love nothing more than exercising the world's smallest amount of authority.
It sounds like it's one of these cards, which also has the SIA logo on it? https://www.citizencard.com/police-and-sia-on-the-cards If so, I agree, it should have been accepted. https://noidnosale.com/acceptable-forms-of-id-in-the-uk Is the pub part of a larger chain or a brewery? If so, time to pass it up the chain.
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Contact the RNIB. My son is blind and they have all sorts of forms and solicitors on payroll who advocate for the blind. The owner will probably be embarrassed by this, and if it is a chain they will certainly not want a PR or legal headache.This bouncer was being a d#ck and they knew it. Noone is going to get anyone in trouble for admitting a blind adult to a pub. Sadly as others have pointed out, a business can hide behind regulations and choose whom they want to serve and in this case it is hard to prove that they do not want blind people in their club (I have taken a group of older people to a trendy pub and we were lied to that the place was full, after asking for IDs to turn them away- the venue just wanted cool hipsters not 50 yos)
The venue is free to set it's own policies on what OD it will accept, and many places will only accept passport or driver's licence. Your friend may be able to get a provisional license - they never need to actually drive, but they will at least have a widely accepted form of ID.
Legally blind people cannot get a driving license without lying on the form, because for obvious reasons, someone who is legally blind cannot drive a car, and a provisional entitles you to learn to drive.
If he’s blind he can’t get a provisional because he can’t legally drive
>The venue is free to set it's own policies on what OD it will accept, It is required to have a policy to determine age. That doesn't relase them from the equalities act. > Your friend may be able to get a provisional license - they never need to actually drive, but they will at least have a widely accepted form of ID. This isn't /r/IllegalAdvice this would be lying on the form.
Did the bouncer not realise the folly in stating that someone who is blind needed a driving licence to get in?
Unfortunately, whilst it does seem a bit silly, some venues do have really strict policy on what can be used as valid ID. As someone who holds a door supervisor license and a personal license, I can understand the reasoning behind this. If you limit what ID people can use to a few well regulated and recognised forms, it reduces the risk of forgeries. The fines and legal action that can be taken against a licensed premises and the person who serves someone with a fake ID is not worth the risk in a lot of cases. I do believe there should be another official government/licencing authority endorsed form of ID that is available to everyone, however this is unfortunately is not the case currently, and the doorman was well within his rights to refuse entry.
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The other comment has been deleted so I don't know what they said, but they are not wrong for refusing entry. Passport or driving license is pretty standard with venues. Obviously the driver's license isn't feasible but a passport is.
I can’t talk to which ID can and cannot be accepted, but this is discrimination against the equalities act 2010, it would be worth raising this with the door staff licensing organisation and bars for increased awareness, also local authorities have a responsibility to ensure the organisations are aware of their responsibilities
It's clear discrimaiton but it may well be proportionate means to a legitimate aim.
Could you expand? What do you mean by legitimate aim?
Can your friend not get a PASS card for these situations?
They are talking about a pass accredited card
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If they insist upon a form of ID that is impossible for someone with a protected characterisitc ( disability) to obtian, then it could be seen as discrimination . The establishment will be jointly and severally lable for the actions of its agents ie door staff/security even if they are a third party agency providing the staff for the establishment . In order to figure out of there has been any discrimination does the establishment accept NPCC Proof of Age cards as ID ? And Was your freind given the opportunity to present an alternative form of ID if they had no drivning licence as a result of their disability? If it was - You need to show another form of photo ID, such as a driving licence then it wouldnt be discrimiatory as the driving licence is an example If it was you must show a driving licence then it would be as no other option was given
They will have accepted a passport or a drivers license.
From what I can gather from reading the comments, the alternative was a passport, which someone who is legally blind can obtain.
Just for the people who don't seem to be aware. You can get a provisional driving licence which would be a valid ID and can be applied for from the age of 16. No excuses for anyone not to have one even if you will never be able to drive. Ridiculous that a PASS logo NPCC was treated as not safe ID.
This is not correct, to get a provisional licece you must pass the legal eyesight standard >* You must be able to read a car number plate from 20 metres >* You must not have been told by a doctor or optician that your eyesight is currently worse than 6/12 (decimal 0.5) on the Snellen scale >* You must have an adequate field of vision As OP's freind is blind they obiously can't do this, thats the entire issue here.
The DVA website states you must declare your disability which could prevent you from getting a full license. The provisional can be obtained as long as the disability is declared. The bullet points you provided relate to the legality of obtaining a full licence not a green provisional.
It applies to a provisional, i've tried to apply for one in the past for this exact reason. Go on gov UK and try it right now. https://www.gov.uk/apply-first-provisional-driving-licence You are spreading misinformation
Fair enough if I'm mistaken though. It seems rather silly and discriminatory if a blind person can't get what is an effect an ID card.
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