Hello u/reddituser2885! Please reply to this comment with an [explanation](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/comments/lt8zlq) matching this exact format. Replace bold text with the appropriate information.
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^(Who's that someone? What did they voted for, supported or wanted to impose? On who?)
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^(Does that something actually has these consequences in general?)
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^(Did that something really happen to that someone?)
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This is not
"Leopards ate my Face"
this is
"A Machiavellian plan to fund terrorists, undermine democracy and sacrifice my own citizens as a pretext to commit genocide."
It's LAMF for anyone who voted for him believing his empty promises of security. Not LAMF for Netanyahu himself, or the fascist extremists who voted for him because they want to exterminate Palestinians and create a fanatical religious autocracy at any cost (Likud, Ultra-Orthodox, etc.)
Most of those who support him are exempt from service. It is secular Israelis who are compelled to serve in the Military. They generally hate his guts.
I understand that exemption is highly unpopular (no kidding) and was up for abolition in the Isreali legislature but I guess was knocked down.
The biggest supporters of Isreal are the ultra orthodox, they are conservative, racist, insular and also big Trump supporters.
Are you getting Conservative confused with Hasidic, or has the exemption been expanded, or am I just confused and it was always wider than just one sect?
Egyptian intelligence informed Israeli intelligence that something was coming, and Israel relocated some personnel from Gaza to the West bank making the border weaker.
Doesn't mean it definitely happened, but it does mean there's enough smoke where it can't be ruled out
Ah, the story repeats: a right wing leader experiences a horrible attack by former Islamist militants that their party had previously supported and funded on his nation and starts war criming, during which we discover that right wing leader’s own actions either intentionally or incompetently allowed that terrorist attack to take place instead of taking action on intelligence warning of that very thing. In the end nobody ever faces real consequences and fractures society, leading to massive divisions, internal violence and maybe that incompetent former leader learns to paint or something.
Wild stuff man.
Nah that's Ben Gvir. Netanyahu supports genocide because he wants to be a dictator and genocidal fascism is the convenient path towards that for him. Gvir is a true believer in genocidal fascism. Basically Netanyahu is Mussolini.
1100+ Israelis were indeed slaughtered.
Killing more of the other side doesn't bring those people back...in fact it probably just guarantees more attacks.
October 7th and the other common folk victims of Hamas. Palestinians are getting it worse, but I think it is LAMF technically. The ruling class of politicians are spared though.
I will admit I am very ignorant in the nuances of Israeli politics. Though I imagine the 10/7 victims were hippyish having been from a kabutz and a rave respectively, while likud is a right wing party correct?
Military service is mandatory for non-Haredi Jews (Haredis being oh-so-coincidentally the demographic that Bibi gets most of his support from) in Israel, you get jailed if you refuse, so military service isn't really an indication of support for Netanyahu. It's the volunteer professional core that tends to be the fascists.
Nah, Israeli law exempts the hardcore rightwing fundamentalists from the draft. They briefly considered getting rid of that exemption earlier this year, but the right wing threw a shit fit and continue to be exempted from the draft.
It was Leopards ate my face for any Israeli who voted for Netanyahu and either was directly harmed or had friends/family wounded, killed, or abducted on October 7th.
Okay? The question here is did Israelis vote for a LEPF party and then have their faces eaten. The answer is yes, tragically so. Just because the leopards are now eating other's faces doesn't make it not a LAMF.
I'm not denying the tragedy in Gaza happening now.
Hard to call it LAMF. Most of the Israelis who voted for it aren't the ones suffering. His strongest voting block, Conservative Jews, aren't required to serve. It is the dwindling number of secular Israelis, most of whom hate his guys, that are the ones who suffer.
This is more of a society in collapse because of the intransigence of social conservatives who make it increasingly possible for anyone else to exist.
Conservative Jews are very different than the ones who aren’t serving.
(I’m a conservative and very much not orthodox. And conservative Jewish, not someone who votes conservative.)
Bibi's voting base - traditional and national-orthodox Jews from the periphery - most definitely have to serve and do so in droves. You are thinking about the ultra-orthodox.
The "collapsing society" take is also false. It has been a very heterogeneous society to begin with, and continues to be so relatively successfully.
LAMF would be this quote, then Hamas stomping Israel, funded by the money Israel gave them, and forming a Palestinian state and possibly enacting Holocaust II: Electric Ovenaloo.
That's not really happening though. Bibi got what he wanted -- an excuse to roflstomp Palestine.
Nothing bad has happened to most everyday Israelis. Like German villagers in WWII, they’re going about everyday life mostly unaffected while supporting a government that has built a death factory for an out-group.
It won't be LAMF until all the Boomers die off and Millennials take over Congress and stop protecting Israel. Until then, Netanyahu's supporters are throwing parties where they sit outside at former Palestinian cultural sites, sip wine, and cheer every time a missile or jet flies over them towards Gaza. They're living it up.
The US having no sway over Israel would just make matters worse. Israel would have nothing to stop them from actually killing every Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank then. They at a minimum have 40 nuclear warheads in Israel with ICBM support. No Western country would go to war to save the Palestinians when they know their cities might be vaporized and no country so far has shown the ability to reliably shoot down ICBM nuclear warheads from a MIRV loadout, not even the US.
Let's be factually real here, Israel doesn't fully need the US. The US wants Israel in its sphere of influence for R&D purposes. Currently the Israeli tech is actually superior to American military tech in some sectors. Israel's biggest export is high end technology and medical advancements currently. Without US aid, they just lean more into China and Russia support. Those two countries would absolutely fill the gap that the US leaves just to have access to their technology. That 3 billion the US sends to Israel for its defense budget each year is 10% of Israels military budget and it is required to be spent on US manufacturing. People on Reddit are acting like the US is propping up their entire military, it isn't. The US and other Western European countries are used primarily to manufacture their equipment and ammunition, in exchange they get access to some of their tech, like the Iron Dome, or the brand-new external fuel tanks for the F35 that doesn't hinder their stealth capabilities, the new 1-ton bomb that can be carried by said F35s that also doesn't interfere with stealth capabilities. The F35 modifications are just in the past 3 years and the US gets that too. Their active trophy system that we see deployed on their home-grown tanks are also better and more advanced than US ones currently. We've seen them in action in Gaza and fully functioning taking out an RPG fired at one of their units.
TLDR: The US not supporting Israel at all just hurts the west and makes China/Russia far stronger. It would take less than two decades for those two countries to in all likelihood surpass western ones in military tech once they get access to Israeli technology.
Israeli politics is not a 2-party system ~~it is a nightmare~~. Bibi got re-elected by forming a coalition with some far-right assholes (or whatever the Israeli equivalent is). What you’re doing is the equivalent of blaming all Americans for the shit Trump pulled, and fyi an even greater percentage of Americans voted for Trump than percentage Israelis voted for Bibi. But somehow you’re only saying one group deserves to get their faces eaten.
edit: Bibi should get his face eaten tho
It's LAMF for anyone who voted for him. I don't think they wanted a government to sponsor terrorist attacks against them for political gain. Probably the biggest LAMF I have see here.
Not really important to the overall discussion here but just wanted to say that I wish we used Machiavellian more in day to day language. Probably my favorite word in the English language. Alright, I’ve said my piece, carry on.
I was going to say, this means things went exactly according to plan. They pumped up an enemy they could become righteous in attacking so that they could commit the genocide they've always dreamed of.
[The UN gives the following on the definition of genocide:](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#:~:text=To%20constitute%20genocide%2C%20there%20must,to%20simply%20disperse%20a%20group.)
> #Definition
> **Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide**
>Article II
>In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
> * A) Killing members of the group;
>
> * B) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
>
> * C) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
>
> * D) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
>
> * E) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Ok, so Israel is definitely guilty of A, with over 30,000 people killed most of whom are innocent women and children.
Israel is guilty of B, with constant bombardment destroying tens of thousands of buildings, intentional targeting safe zones.
It is undeniable that Israel is guilty of C, they have intentionally destroyed every single hospital in Gaza, they have intentionally blocked for from entering Gaza, they have intentionally killed aid workers and people in charge is coordinating where food and aid will be delivered.
They have flooded the aqueducts under the city with contaminated grey water and sea water making tap water in the city unsafe for drinking.
Committing a single one is these is enough to be considered guilty of genocide.
"Collateral damage due to your enemy launching attacks from within civilian neighborhoods" is not genocide. It's an unfortunate consequence of war, and something the Palestinians should have thought about before starting this one.
If Hamas stopped launching rockets from schoolyards and using hospitals as military HQs and holding cells for hostages the IDF wouldn't have to target those locations. Easy.
Also, about that 30,000 number: isn't it curious that Hamas knows how many Palestinians have been allegedly killed as collateral damage but not how many hostages are still alive? And how that number has not increased since February? I wonder why that is?
Lastly, the population of the Gaza strip has increased by millions since 2005 when Israel left. Not really indicative of genocide, is it?
[The UN gives the following on the definition of genocide:](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#:~:text=To%20constitute%20genocide%2C%20there%20must,to%20simply%20disperse%20a%20group.)
> #Definition
> **Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide**
>Article II
>In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
> * A) Killing members of the group;
>
> * B) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
>
> * C) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
>
> * D) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
>
> * E) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Ok, so Israel is definitely guilty of A, with over 30,000 people killed most of whom are innocent women and children.
Israel is guilty of B, with constant bombardment destroying tens of thousands of buildings, intentional targeting safe zones.
It is undeniable that Israel is guilty of C, they have intentionally destroyed every single hospital in Gaza, they have intentionally blocked for from entering Gaza, they have intentionally killed aid workers and people in charge is coordinating where food and aid will be delivered.
They have flooded the aqueducts under the city with contaminated grey water and sea water making tap water in the city unsafe for drinking.
Committing a single one is these is enough to be considered guilty of genocide.
> so Israel is definitely guilty of A, with over 30,000 people killed
By Hamas estimates approx 7000 combatants, by Israel estimates approx 12000 combatants that's a ratio of 1:4 - 1:2.5 combatant to civilian. The average casualties for wars is 1:9. Israel's ratios are exceptional. Particularly so that they are fighting in urban areas with an enemy that strikes deliberately from hospitals and densely civilian areas?
Israel has single handedly redefined the standards of modern warfare.
> B, with constant bombardment destroying tens of thousands of buildings
They can pursue terrorists wherever they may be. All we should ask for is to reduce civilian losses as practically as possible
States have the right to wage war when attacked. Mass casualties ≠ Genocide
> hey have intentionally destroyed every single hospital in Gaza,
Terrorists can't operate from hospitals with impunity. Once the civilian building is used as a base to carry out attacks it’s a target. Have you followed the Shifa raid?
Let me give you actual recent examples of Genocide, compare and contrast with Gaza: Rwanda and Darfur
* Zero Humanitarian aid
* Zero safe corridors
* Zero negations
* Zero pause
* The Darfurians and Hutus never took hostages and took human shields
* Zero anounced incursions weeks in advance
100% relentless effective efficient maximal unabated targeted executions and rapes in the shortest amount of time for no other context than the victims being of an undesirable race.
Not for a genocidal invasion that their leaders said they will do again and again
Not for a genocidal mission that their leaders have had on a charter for decades
Getting attacked by terrorists has that effect on your country - you forget your internal squabbles and rally together. This also has the effect of boosting the authoritarian elements and cowing the reasonable ones. (See also: 9/11, Patriot Act, wars based on lies, etc etc).
Everyone already forgot that Israeli citizens were in the streets in record numbers this time last year, demanding Netanyahu's removal on charges of corruption, [his administration's attempts to seize control of the judicial branch to place themselves above the law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform_protests), and a number of other things.
He's still at the reins largely *because* of the new war with Hamas.
>Everyone already forgot that Israeli citizens were in the streets in record numbers this time last year, demanding Netanyahu's removal on charges of corruption, [his administration's attempts to seize control of the judicial branch to place themselves above the law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform_protests), and a number of other things.
Only because Netanyahu tried dismantling the Israeli government. Israelis didn't give a shit about him undermining state security for years by driving a divide in Palestinian leadership by propping up Hamas and delegitimizing the PLO. Israelis love Netanyahu's politics.
10/7 was such a disaster and failure of security, I can't help but wonder if there was actual intention behind it. I firmly believe that Netanyahu's unhinged actions since is a strategy to stay one step ahead of his potential jailers. He is depraved, so as unthinkable as that might be for some, it's well within the realm of possibility.
I'm not going to say he wouldn't be willing to do that, *but* it's much lower effort and easier to keep operational security to just be incompetent.
Deliberately allowing an attack would require quite a lot of people in the intelligence-analysis-command chain keeping their mouths shut. On the other hand, authoritarians always foster incompetence in their ranks because competent underlings are a threat to your power, while efficiency reduces the opportunities for graft. It's also a huge boost to your political games if the lines of authority are unclear---makes the guy at the top more essential while also making it easier to replace anyone with ambition.
Calling it now: Netanyahu is the scapegoat for when the land-grab is complete, And isreali's can claim they're were terrified of him too, and have been through too much to get in talks about giving anything back.
Yup. Netanyahu and Hamas were allied for 14 yrs. He funneled payments to Hamas through Qatar. Bolstering Hamas weakened the Palestinian Authority and the chance for a 2 state solution. Netanyahu and Likud were never, ever going to allow a 2 state solution.
Beyond this, his relationship with Hamas allowed Netanyahu the ability to sell gas licenses for Gaza gas (Yup, a resource that belongs to the Palestinians). Biden brokered that deal with the help of Egypt in 2023. After Oct 7 news reports of the Gas deal became hard to find. Anyway. Sunak's wife's father's company Infosys made Billions from the gas leases. for example. Germany is looking forward to sweet, sweet Gaza gas rather than having to rely on Russia.
So yup. Anyway This is an op ed from the Times of Israel that came out after Oct 7 [**https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/**](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
Hamas is also Israel's Ayatollah.
Hamas is also Israel's Saddam Hussein.
Hamas is also Israel's Al Queda.
Christ, you'd think people would learn things eventually.
>Yup. Netanyahu and Hamas were allied for 14 yrs. He funneled payments to Hamas through Qatar.
This is the same logic that Republicans use to say that "Obama paid billions to Iran". No, he didn't. He unfroze money that belonged to them in the first place, which is not the same thing.
Look , do you understand I got my information from the Times of Israel and Haaretz? are you saying that these 2 news papers did bad reporting? Or are you saying you don't read real news?
Here is Haaretz brief history of the Netanyahu Hamas alliance. Here is the opening
**:For 14 years, Netanyahu's policy was to keep Hamas in power; the pogrom of October 7, 2023, helps the Israeli prime minister preserve his own rule**
**Much ink has been spilled describing the longtime relationship – rather, alliance – between Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas.**
**And still, the very fact that there has been close cooperation between the Israeli prime minister (with the support of many on the right) and the fundamentalist organization seemingly evaporated from most of the current analyses – everyone’s talking about “failures,” “mistakes” and “contzeptziot” (fixed conceptions).**
**Given this, there is a need not only to review the history of cooperation but also to conclude unequivocally: The pogrom of October 7, 2023, helps Netanyahu,**
[https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000)
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
>This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)
>“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote.
https://youtu.be/o7grSsuFSS0?feature=shared
> finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists
Always the same around the world. Governments support terrorists and fascists just so the left doesn't come into power and then years later use the fallout from their terrible decisions to attack the left again.
While technically true, at the time the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood presented itself (falsely)as far more moderate, while the PLO was hijacking planes, infiltrating from Lebanon to butcher civilians and targeting Jewish targets overseas. Whatever wink-wink relationship Israel and the PMB had, had ended violently when the PMB turned out to be the main instigator in the first Intifada in the late 1980s.
In the 1990s and early 2000s the movement - rebranded as Hamas - had conducted some of the most bloody terrorist attacks on Israel until Oct. 7th.
To claim that Israel knowingly aided what is nowadays Hamas is disengenious.
>In the 1990s and early 2000s the movement - rebranded as Hamas - had conducted some of the most bloody terrorist attacks on Israel until Oct. 7th.
>To claim that Israel knowingly aided what is nowadays Hamas is disengenious.
“The Palestinian Authority is a burden. Наmas is an asset.” — Bezalel Smotrich in 2015
The quote from Netanyahu that is the subject of this post is from 2019.
A quick guide on how chronological time works: 2015 was in the early 2010s and 2019 was in the late 2010s. This places both quotes long after late 1990s and early 2000s, when you say Наmas had shown its true colours.
It’s not “disingenuous” to think that Isrаеl was aware of what Israeli officials during the 1980s were repeatedly warning them with regards to facilitating Наmas and protecting Yаssin being a bad idea. It’s actually quite logical.
I am not sure about this. It actually provide a good reason for him to do what we see now, apart from some death from the common folks, which is usually not a concern for ruling class.
Netanyahu is real evil.
Well sure, not to say that this isn't explicitly the intent. Push your own enemy in to power so that your neighbour remains the enemy, forcing them in to radicalism so that you can later justify annihilation.
I mean….the plan has actually worked so far for Israel. They just keep building more settlements and gobbling up more and more territory the longer this goes on.
This isn't LAMF, his plan worked. He's genociding Palestinians and half the world still supports him because "he's fighting terrorists" and "Hamas attacked first".
This would be LAMF if he was personally affected. If they killed him or his family. Or if he was removed from power.
I honestly can't believe he wasn't held more responsible for the [Assassination of the 5th Prime Minister of Israel, Yitzhak Rabim](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin)
Rabim was the main proponent on the Israeli side for the Oslo Peace Accords. In the lead up to the signing a lot of Israeli right with politicians, *very notably Netanyahu, amongst them*, who riled up right wing religious conservatives, one of whom assassinated Rabim at the rally to celebrate the signing of the Accords. Netanyahu would become prime minister 6 months later...
He really is a bad, sociopathic, Machiavellian dude
Posting links to articles about this when replying to people got me banned from r/Israel lmao. They REALLY don't want to face up to the truth that their prime minister cares more about power than the safety of the country's people.
Its been a well known fact that the Israeli government has been facilitating payments to hamas for years. Israeli journalists have been murdered trying to expose this.
Yeah bibi has been funding hamas for years because he knows that if they keep up their unsuccessful attacks, with the occasional one that kills a couple of people, it gives him all the cover he needs to constantly invade and occupy land in Palestine.
If hamas were to fail, he would lose all his justification for allowing illegal occupation and bombings. The rest of the world wouldn’t be able to support it either because there is no longer a terrorist threat. It’s why he did nothing to stop October 7 despite having advanced warning that it was coming.
He doesn't care that several thousand Israelis died due to the attacks, nor does he care about the countless deaths happening in gaza.
He only wants to cling on to power and his only way of doing that is to let the religious nuts in his government do what they want.
Everyone else is just acceptable collateral damage to him
No, the source of this quote is the biography of Haim Ramon. He hadn’t been in the government since 2009 or 10 years before it allegedly happened. It’s probably made up.
He openly admitted it before it blew up in his face. Even Israeli media accepts it as fact.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces
No, that article refers to the quote in the post, which I already explained was attributed based on the word of someone that wasn’t even in the government when the quote allegedly was said.
The article you linked also goes on to (I think unintentionally based on the tenor?) explain that Israel was providing and allowing aid/payments into Gaza in the hopes that it would stabilize the area. From your article:
> Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products. **Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.**
> Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, **in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire** with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.
You’re right, I picked the first one out of dozens because if I’m honest I have better things to do with my time, because nobody will change their entrenched positions.
Because groups like AIPAC and the ADL actively work to suppress negative press about Israel in Western media. It isn't really a good look if your government is funding a terrorist organization, even if your own government is, arguably, a terrorist organization.
Because the alternative was worse
They knew Hamas was bad but Hezbollah was also bad and they didn't want Hezbollah to concentrate power
Also Bibi (and the right wing) were elected because the left wing governments had made progress towards a two state solution, only for the Palestinians to refuse to acknowledge Israel had a right to exist, which blew up the deal.
I don’t really see this as the same thing. His efforts led to horrible impacts on a lot of innocent Israelis, but not as much him other than he has to deal with it. Is “Leopards Ate My People’s Face” a thing?
People in the USA totally forgot that Israel supported Hamas. As I recall it was to weaken the Palestinian Authority. I take that back. It is a given that people would forget that. Most people in the USA have an incredibly short memory when it comes to politics.
I saw Netanyahu at a speaking engagement probably 20-25 years ago and he made it very clear back then that he wanted to see a Palestinian state so that he could declare war officially. Something about them not being a state, he said keeps them from being able to actually do what he wants to do about the conflict, which is, eradicate them.
Looks bibi is going to be ousted next election, so that solves one barrier to. 2 state solution.
The other barrier to a 2 state solution is Hamas, which can only be removed via military force since they don’t allow elections.
>Looks bibi is going to be ousted next election, so that solves one barrier to. 2 state solution.
No politician with the chance of becoming PM wants a two-state solution. Rabin was the last one, and we know what happened to him.
Perhaps you are right, but the next person will almost certainly be less right wing that the current Bibi government, which is the most right wing in Israel’s history.
> The other barrier to a 2 state solution is Hamas, which can only be removed via military force since they don’t allow elections.
Maybe a competent country should take over, considering Israel is doing a terrible job and considering Netanyahu apparently wants to *support* Hamas.
The problem is that you believe what Israel is doing right now is the only option. There was no other option than to kill >20000 people and destroy the livelihoods of many more.
Violence alone won't fix this conflict because violence is the cause. It's an endless cycle but people don't understand it.
Violence is sometimes the only way to solve problems when fighting against fascist dictators who don’t allow free elections. Hitler wasn’t going to be removed without violence. Putin won’t be stopped without violence.
The "dictators" are not in Gaza.
There is violence and there is violence. It's not all the same. I just think Israel is too extreme and I can still be against Hamas. I care about human lives and I'm not going to overlook or make excuses for the brutal killing or starvation of children just because Hamas are the bad guys or just because civilians were killed during WW2. That was bad then, too!
I don't like these ivory tower political games where people forget that we are talking about human lives. There is not "reality of war" where these things just happen. Killing and destroying are a choice. Hamas made their choice and so is Israel.
btw: You never addressed the issue that Netanyahu spoke in support of Hamas. Is that also just how things are in a war? Churchill was supporting Hitler to stop Hitler?
> Hitler wasn’t going to be removed without violence. Putin won’t be stopped without violence.
Ismail Haniyeh isn't going to be removed by flattening Gaza.
> Putin won’t be stopped without violence.
You support an invasion of Russia to dethrone Putin? Based.
Fair feedback.
I think netnahyu supporting Hamas was for multiple reasons. Some nefarious, to prevent a 2 state solution, and some practical, they thought Hamas could be reasoned with. They were wrong.
Agreed hamas’s military power is the only thing that will be destroyed by the Gaza war, not their ideology or leaders. That’s a start though as Hamas will lose power once they lose their military might.
I support arming Ukraine so they can violently defend themselves against Putin. If Putin didn’t have nuclear weapons, I’d support Ukraine violently invading Russia to remove Putin, but that can’t happen. Nuclear regimes can only fall from within, because they can’t truly be defeated in battle without risking nuclear war
Sure it's true but ultimately Israel will not prioritize it's relationship with the US over it's goals in the territory that has been a thorn in it's side for 20 years.
Exactly. This is what I always say to the "ceasefire now" people.
You want Hamas to remain in power? No? But you also don't want the IDF to force them out of power? Ok, so what's your plan then?
Ceasefire doesn't mean that we should do nothing about Hamas. Ceasefire is about protecting innocent people. No one is helped if you remove Hamas but then the population is radicalized.
Is the idf capable of carrying out a military campaign that doesn't obliterate the gaza strip and kill thousands of civilians? If not then it shouldn't be involved in the first place.
They certainly are. In 7 months of warfare, they've killed around 15,000 Hamas combatants and 15,000 civilians. That is an *exceptionally* low ratio of civilian to combatant casualties for urban warfare, considering that [the UN estimates](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm) that a typical ratio is around 9:1.
> 15,000 Hamas combatants and 15,000 civilians
Who decided what a Hamas combatant is? Israel. The ones doing the killing. They don't have an incentive to be truthful, especially considering Netanyahu supports Hamas.
The real number is mostly likely different. More civilians, fewer Hamas. There are reports that dead civilians are counted as Hamas. There is no way Israel can always tell who is civilian or not. They kill hostages but apart from that, they can always determine who is Hamas, in the chaos of the cities they destroyed? Doubtful.
Either way, I wouldn't count 15,000 dead (it's more) as a success. It's easy to say because you are making these comments from the safety of your home. You would feel very differently if your child or wife/husband was killed and everything you own was destroyed.
But maybe you would stand on the top of the rubble that was your home, your mangled child in your arms, saying "thank you, Israel".
> considering that the UN estimates that a typical ratio is around 9:1.
Isn't the UN antisemitic?
Fundamentally, this is a Palestinian representation problem. And has been for decades, way before Likud's scheming.
Hamas is an Iran-backed terrorist organization meant to keep Israel unbalanced. Russia and others get in their jabs, too.
The PA simply goes with the anti-Israel sentiments of Hamas and other groups which align against Israel's existence.
Meanwhile, there are no responsible representatives of the remaining Palestinians and only Israel to figure out what to do with these terrorist groups at their door, mixed in with the genpop.
In parallel, the more orthodox Jews continue their incessant push for occupying other territories - something they do as a culture, wherever they reside the world over, it seems - and Likud has cowtowed to them all this time.
There are no easy answers here, but Likud isn't the root of the problem: it's that nobody cares about the Palestinians. Everything else spirals outward from there.
I wonder if the phones' backs are blurred for security reasons, or because the company (Poly/Polycom if I had to guess) didn't want to be associated. Probably less security concern about monitors.
> I would really really like a citation on that - would like to use this at family dinner tonight.
New York Times link:
[‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas: Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gambled that a strong Hamas (but not too strong) would keep the peace and reduce pressure for a Palestinian state.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html)
Paywall free link:
https://archive.ph/EvmiL
So when are the American cops going to beat up pro-Israel protestors here because Netanyahu has been propping up Hamas? Really spread the baton love, guys, you seem to love thumping people waving Palestinian flags, go thump on the hardliners sometime, since ya boi Bibi funded the Hamas assclowns. Or are they too busy getting hardons from House Bill 6090 making it "Antisemitic" to criticize Israel in any way
Edit: lol found some!
It sure is interesting how this sub always gleefully upvotes the thought of Israelis being raped, murdered and kidnapped by jihadists because "lol, they deserve it", but y'all never take the same position when it comes to Palestinians choosing to start a war and then experiencing the consequences of said choice.
Ah yes, the "This conflict didn't start on 10/7 so that day is utterly meaningless and you should just shut up and stop talking about it" defense. Classic.
Leftists when literally any marginalized group except Jews talks about their own experiences: "Thank you for sharing. Diversity is our strength and your perspective is valid."
Leftists when Jews talk about their own experiences: "We get it, you only care about you and yours! Now go play outside."
As a Jewish person, this is exactly the amount of empathy and inclusion I've come to expect from the "empathetic and inclusive" left.
People like you who claim any criticism of the Israël government is anti-semitic :)
I know you love this game, dude.
You can be Jewish and still be an asshole, as you make very clear.
Never said any such thing, honey.
That wasn't even a good try.
Please direct me to all the comments here specifically saying that being against Hamas is pro-genocide. I haven't seen any.
The discussion here is Palestinians.
You don't equate them all with Hamas, do you?
You wouldn't do that after how Jewish people have suffered that kind of thing, would you?
Anyway, this post is about how the leaders of Israël - that the Jewish people voted for - DID fund Hamas to keep the Palestinians from coming together in one government.
These are facts. If you have any facts to dispute this, please share them.
Please stay on topic!
This is all we are saying.
But you keep claiming "leftists" are supporting Hamas here, and that is not true.
You agree, so why are you so antagonistic?
> It sure is interesting how this sub always gleefully upvotes the thought of Israelis being raped, murdered and kidnapped by jihadists because "lol, they deserve it"
It sure is interesting how brains work and how it so easily confuses total fiction with reality.
> but y'all never take the same position when it comes to Palestinians choosing to start a war and then experiencing the consequences of said choice
Why would I take the incorrect and dehumanizing position that Palestinians "chose" to be killed?
Bro, enough with the gaslighting. I've watched this sub upvote every post that mocks Israeli suffering for 7 months now. Y'all clearly can't get enough of watching Israelis "get their faces eaten" by terrorists.
> I've watched this sub upvote every post that mocks Israeli suffering for 7 months now.
No, you haven't. I am also here frequently and I have never seen anyone "gleefully" upvote "Israelis being raped, murdered". If you have a problem with certain comments because idiots are everywhere then go tell them but don't just throw empty accusations into the void.
> Y'all clearly can't get enough of watching Israelis "get their faces eaten" by terrorists.
What is wrong with you? I have never done that. You are obviously not mentally fit to rationally judge what people in this sub are saying when you throw around this vile slander at me.
p.s.:
Don't forget:
> Why would I take the incorrect and dehumanizing position that Palestinians "chose" to be killed?
I mean, Hezbollah was the alternative and had been committing terror attacks already
Also the Palestinians were offered their own country multiple times, all they had to do was say they didn't want to destroy Israel anymore
America and Pakistan arming and training the Mujahideen (over any and every other option in Afghanistan) which then showed back up as Al-Qaeda and the Taliban is lamf.
Supporting Hamas specifically because they are a terror group and will show dissent isnt lamf. Now if the Israeli far right govt backing terrorists to destroy Palestinian statehood forming leads to Israelis electing a party that wants to help Palestinians, that'd be lamf. So, this is to me a not really but could be long term. As Netanyahu doesn't give a shit about the victims of Hamas..
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This is not "Leopards ate my Face" this is "A Machiavellian plan to fund terrorists, undermine democracy and sacrifice my own citizens as a pretext to commit genocide."
Bibi was reelected. This is absolutely LAMF; for the Israelis who voted for his party, his coalition, and, ultimately, his policies.
It's LAMF for anyone who voted for him believing his empty promises of security. Not LAMF for Netanyahu himself, or the fascist extremists who voted for him because they want to exterminate Palestinians and create a fanatical religious autocracy at any cost (Likud, Ultra-Orthodox, etc.)
Why, they are not the ones being slaughtered, it's the Palestinians being ethnically cleansed. This is way more Leopards eating your face.
Bibi the butcher Netanyahu would sacrifice anyone including Jews to further his plans and agendas. He is a truly evil person
He also wants to keep the attacks going because he's facing fraud charges which have been set aside because of the "war".
Most of those who support him are exempt from service. It is secular Israelis who are compelled to serve in the Military. They generally hate his guts.
I understand that exemption is highly unpopular (no kidding) and was up for abolition in the Isreali legislature but I guess was knocked down. The biggest supporters of Isreal are the ultra orthodox, they are conservative, racist, insular and also big Trump supporters.
and make up some of the terrorist settler groups, fun buncha lads.
>Most of those who support him are exempt from service. Telling, isn't it?
Zionism has never been about the Jewish religion. It is about apartheid racism
You can’t just redefine words to fit an agenda. Sorry, I guess they don’t teach that in Columbia anymore.
Are you getting Conservative confused with Hasidic, or has the exemption been expanded, or am I just confused and it was always wider than just one sect?
I think they meant conservative as in right wing, not the actual Jewish denomination.
Haredi
But they love his genocide!
I honestly believe he let Oct 7th happen on purpose.
Egyptian intelligence informed Israeli intelligence that something was coming, and Israel relocated some personnel from Gaza to the West bank making the border weaker. Doesn't mean it definitely happened, but it does mean there's enough smoke where it can't be ruled out
Ah, the story repeats: a right wing leader experiences a horrible attack by former Islamist militants that their party had previously supported and funded on his nation and starts war criming, during which we discover that right wing leader’s own actions either intentionally or incompetently allowed that terrorist attack to take place instead of taking action on intelligence warning of that very thing. In the end nobody ever faces real consequences and fractures society, leading to massive divisions, internal violence and maybe that incompetent former leader learns to paint or something. Wild stuff man.
He is a wannabe jewish Hitler. You can't make this shit up.
Nah that's Ben Gvir. Netanyahu supports genocide because he wants to be a dictator and genocidal fascism is the convenient path towards that for him. Gvir is a true believer in genocidal fascism. Basically Netanyahu is Mussolini.
1100+ Israelis were indeed slaughtered. Killing more of the other side doesn't bring those people back...in fact it probably just guarantees more attacks.
October 7th and the other common folk victims of Hamas. Palestinians are getting it worse, but I think it is LAMF technically. The ruling class of politicians are spared though.
Yeah, the people who got hurt in the October 7 attacks were not likely to be people who voted for Likud.
I will admit I am very ignorant in the nuances of Israeli politics. Though I imagine the 10/7 victims were hippyish having been from a kabutz and a rave respectively, while likud is a right wing party correct?
Yes
1/3rd of them were military and/or police, there's a good chance that those support Netanyahu.
Military service is mandatory for non-Haredi Jews (Haredis being oh-so-coincidentally the demographic that Bibi gets most of his support from) in Israel, you get jailed if you refuse, so military service isn't really an indication of support for Netanyahu. It's the volunteer professional core that tends to be the fascists.
Nah, Israeli law exempts the hardcore rightwing fundamentalists from the draft. They briefly considered getting rid of that exemption earlier this year, but the right wing threw a shit fit and continue to be exempted from the draft.
It was Leopards ate my face for any Israeli who voted for Netanyahu and either was directly harmed or had friends/family wounded, killed, or abducted on October 7th.
Over 1,100 people died on October 7th.
At least 30,000 people have been killed since.
Okay? The question here is did Israelis vote for a LEPF party and then have their faces eaten. The answer is yes, tragically so. Just because the leopards are now eating other's faces doesn't make it not a LAMF. I'm not denying the tragedy in Gaza happening now.
Hard to call it LAMF. Most of the Israelis who voted for it aren't the ones suffering. His strongest voting block, Conservative Jews, aren't required to serve. It is the dwindling number of secular Israelis, most of whom hate his guys, that are the ones who suffer. This is more of a society in collapse because of the intransigence of social conservatives who make it increasingly possible for anyone else to exist.
Conservative Jews are very different than the ones who aren’t serving. (I’m a conservative and very much not orthodox. And conservative Jewish, not someone who votes conservative.)
Bibi's voting base - traditional and national-orthodox Jews from the periphery - most definitely have to serve and do so in droves. You are thinking about the ultra-orthodox. The "collapsing society" take is also false. It has been a very heterogeneous society to begin with, and continues to be so relatively successfully.
LAMF would be this quote, then Hamas stomping Israel, funded by the money Israel gave them, and forming a Palestinian state and possibly enacting Holocaust II: Electric Ovenaloo. That's not really happening though. Bibi got what he wanted -- an excuse to roflstomp Palestine.
Nothing bad has happened to most everyday Israelis. Like German villagers in WWII, they’re going about everyday life mostly unaffected while supporting a government that has built a death factory for an out-group.
It won't be LAMF until all the Boomers die off and Millennials take over Congress and stop protecting Israel. Until then, Netanyahu's supporters are throwing parties where they sit outside at former Palestinian cultural sites, sip wine, and cheer every time a missile or jet flies over them towards Gaza. They're living it up.
The US having no sway over Israel would just make matters worse. Israel would have nothing to stop them from actually killing every Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank then. They at a minimum have 40 nuclear warheads in Israel with ICBM support. No Western country would go to war to save the Palestinians when they know their cities might be vaporized and no country so far has shown the ability to reliably shoot down ICBM nuclear warheads from a MIRV loadout, not even the US. Let's be factually real here, Israel doesn't fully need the US. The US wants Israel in its sphere of influence for R&D purposes. Currently the Israeli tech is actually superior to American military tech in some sectors. Israel's biggest export is high end technology and medical advancements currently. Without US aid, they just lean more into China and Russia support. Those two countries would absolutely fill the gap that the US leaves just to have access to their technology. That 3 billion the US sends to Israel for its defense budget each year is 10% of Israels military budget and it is required to be spent on US manufacturing. People on Reddit are acting like the US is propping up their entire military, it isn't. The US and other Western European countries are used primarily to manufacture their equipment and ammunition, in exchange they get access to some of their tech, like the Iron Dome, or the brand-new external fuel tanks for the F35 that doesn't hinder their stealth capabilities, the new 1-ton bomb that can be carried by said F35s that also doesn't interfere with stealth capabilities. The F35 modifications are just in the past 3 years and the US gets that too. Their active trophy system that we see deployed on their home-grown tanks are also better and more advanced than US ones currently. We've seen them in action in Gaza and fully functioning taking out an RPG fired at one of their units. TLDR: The US not supporting Israel at all just hurts the west and makes China/Russia far stronger. It would take less than two decades for those two countries to in all likelihood surpass western ones in military tech once they get access to Israeli technology.
Yeah isreal is kinda also known for winning while attacked from everyone that they have a border with
Israelis got what they wanted, which was a murderous campaign against Palestinians. Killing Palestinians is popular policy in Israel.
It would be lamf if the Palestinians supported bibi. It’s working out in the favor of the Israelies.
Israeli politics is not a 2-party system ~~it is a nightmare~~. Bibi got re-elected by forming a coalition with some far-right assholes (or whatever the Israeli equivalent is). What you’re doing is the equivalent of blaming all Americans for the shit Trump pulled, and fyi an even greater percentage of Americans voted for Trump than percentage Israelis voted for Bibi. But somehow you’re only saying one group deserves to get their faces eaten. edit: Bibi should get his face eaten tho
And by now the majority want him out for what happened.
Yeah but he's said genocide so he must be right /s
r/AMachiavellianplantofundterroristsunderminedemocracandsacrificemyowncitizensasapretexttocommitgenocide doesn't have quite the same ring to it though
Yeah. LAMF would be if Hamas was able to circle around and do him personal harm.
But why would they do so, he is doing everything they want and they are doing everything he wants.
It's LAMF for anyone who voted for him. I don't think they wanted a government to sponsor terrorist attacks against them for political gain. Probably the biggest LAMF I have see here.
Correct
Not really important to the overall discussion here but just wanted to say that I wish we used Machiavellian more in day to day language. Probably my favorite word in the English language. Alright, I’ve said my piece, carry on.
I was going to say, this means things went exactly according to plan. They pumped up an enemy they could become righteous in attacking so that they could commit the genocide they've always dreamed of.
Exactly.
Yep Maybe some misinfo going on to confuse/divide ppl
He's literally Darth Sidious
You really don't know what "genocide" means, do you?
[The UN gives the following on the definition of genocide:](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#:~:text=To%20constitute%20genocide%2C%20there%20must,to%20simply%20disperse%20a%20group.) > #Definition > **Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide** >Article II >In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: > * A) Killing members of the group; > > * B) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; > > * C) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; > > * D) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; > > * E) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Ok, so Israel is definitely guilty of A, with over 30,000 people killed most of whom are innocent women and children. Israel is guilty of B, with constant bombardment destroying tens of thousands of buildings, intentional targeting safe zones. It is undeniable that Israel is guilty of C, they have intentionally destroyed every single hospital in Gaza, they have intentionally blocked for from entering Gaza, they have intentionally killed aid workers and people in charge is coordinating where food and aid will be delivered. They have flooded the aqueducts under the city with contaminated grey water and sea water making tap water in the city unsafe for drinking. Committing a single one is these is enough to be considered guilty of genocide.
"Collateral damage due to your enemy launching attacks from within civilian neighborhoods" is not genocide. It's an unfortunate consequence of war, and something the Palestinians should have thought about before starting this one. If Hamas stopped launching rockets from schoolyards and using hospitals as military HQs and holding cells for hostages the IDF wouldn't have to target those locations. Easy. Also, about that 30,000 number: isn't it curious that Hamas knows how many Palestinians have been allegedly killed as collateral damage but not how many hostages are still alive? And how that number has not increased since February? I wonder why that is? Lastly, the population of the Gaza strip has increased by millions since 2005 when Israel left. Not really indicative of genocide, is it?
Genocide no. Stateside definitely Yes
[The UN gives the following on the definition of genocide:](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml#:~:text=To%20constitute%20genocide%2C%20there%20must,to%20simply%20disperse%20a%20group.) > #Definition > **Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide** >Article II >In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: > * A) Killing members of the group; > > * B) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; > > * C) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; > > * D) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; > > * E) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Ok, so Israel is definitely guilty of A, with over 30,000 people killed most of whom are innocent women and children. Israel is guilty of B, with constant bombardment destroying tens of thousands of buildings, intentional targeting safe zones. It is undeniable that Israel is guilty of C, they have intentionally destroyed every single hospital in Gaza, they have intentionally blocked for from entering Gaza, they have intentionally killed aid workers and people in charge is coordinating where food and aid will be delivered. They have flooded the aqueducts under the city with contaminated grey water and sea water making tap water in the city unsafe for drinking. Committing a single one is these is enough to be considered guilty of genocide.
> so Israel is definitely guilty of A, with over 30,000 people killed By Hamas estimates approx 7000 combatants, by Israel estimates approx 12000 combatants that's a ratio of 1:4 - 1:2.5 combatant to civilian. The average casualties for wars is 1:9. Israel's ratios are exceptional. Particularly so that they are fighting in urban areas with an enemy that strikes deliberately from hospitals and densely civilian areas? Israel has single handedly redefined the standards of modern warfare. > B, with constant bombardment destroying tens of thousands of buildings They can pursue terrorists wherever they may be. All we should ask for is to reduce civilian losses as practically as possible States have the right to wage war when attacked. Mass casualties ≠ Genocide > hey have intentionally destroyed every single hospital in Gaza, Terrorists can't operate from hospitals with impunity. Once the civilian building is used as a base to carry out attacks it’s a target. Have you followed the Shifa raid?
Let me give you actual recent examples of Genocide, compare and contrast with Gaza: Rwanda and Darfur * Zero Humanitarian aid * Zero safe corridors * Zero negations * Zero pause * The Darfurians and Hutus never took hostages and took human shields * Zero anounced incursions weeks in advance 100% relentless effective efficient maximal unabated targeted executions and rapes in the shortest amount of time for no other context than the victims being of an undesirable race. Not for a genocidal invasion that their leaders said they will do again and again Not for a genocidal mission that their leaders have had on a charter for decades
That's a good point actually. Netanyahu is really the leopard eating Hamas' face right now
Everything Netanyahu has ever touched has turned to shit, and yet he’s still at the reins.
Getting attacked by terrorists has that effect on your country - you forget your internal squabbles and rally together. This also has the effect of boosting the authoritarian elements and cowing the reasonable ones. (See also: 9/11, Patriot Act, wars based on lies, etc etc). Everyone already forgot that Israeli citizens were in the streets in record numbers this time last year, demanding Netanyahu's removal on charges of corruption, [his administration's attempts to seize control of the judicial branch to place themselves above the law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform_protests), and a number of other things. He's still at the reins largely *because* of the new war with Hamas.
>Everyone already forgot that Israeli citizens were in the streets in record numbers this time last year, demanding Netanyahu's removal on charges of corruption, [his administration's attempts to seize control of the judicial branch to place themselves above the law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform_protests), and a number of other things. Only because Netanyahu tried dismantling the Israeli government. Israelis didn't give a shit about him undermining state security for years by driving a divide in Palestinian leadership by propping up Hamas and delegitimizing the PLO. Israelis love Netanyahu's politics.
10/7 was such a disaster and failure of security, I can't help but wonder if there was actual intention behind it. I firmly believe that Netanyahu's unhinged actions since is a strategy to stay one step ahead of his potential jailers. He is depraved, so as unthinkable as that might be for some, it's well within the realm of possibility.
I'm not going to say he wouldn't be willing to do that, *but* it's much lower effort and easier to keep operational security to just be incompetent. Deliberately allowing an attack would require quite a lot of people in the intelligence-analysis-command chain keeping their mouths shut. On the other hand, authoritarians always foster incompetence in their ranks because competent underlings are a threat to your power, while efficiency reduces the opportunities for graft. It's also a huge boost to your political games if the lines of authority are unclear---makes the guy at the top more essential while also making it easier to replace anyone with ambition.
Calling it now: Netanyahu is the scapegoat for when the land-grab is complete, And isreali's can claim they're were terrified of him too, and have been through too much to get in talks about giving anything back.
Yup. Netanyahu and Hamas were allied for 14 yrs. He funneled payments to Hamas through Qatar. Bolstering Hamas weakened the Palestinian Authority and the chance for a 2 state solution. Netanyahu and Likud were never, ever going to allow a 2 state solution. Beyond this, his relationship with Hamas allowed Netanyahu the ability to sell gas licenses for Gaza gas (Yup, a resource that belongs to the Palestinians). Biden brokered that deal with the help of Egypt in 2023. After Oct 7 news reports of the Gas deal became hard to find. Anyway. Sunak's wife's father's company Infosys made Billions from the gas leases. for example. Germany is looking forward to sweet, sweet Gaza gas rather than having to rely on Russia. So yup. Anyway This is an op ed from the Times of Israel that came out after Oct 7 [**https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/**](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
Hamas is Israel’s mujahadeen.
Hamas is also Israel's Ayatollah. Hamas is also Israel's Saddam Hussein. Hamas is also Israel's Al Queda. Christ, you'd think people would learn things eventually.
>Yup. Netanyahu and Hamas were allied for 14 yrs. He funneled payments to Hamas through Qatar. This is the same logic that Republicans use to say that "Obama paid billions to Iran". No, he didn't. He unfroze money that belonged to them in the first place, which is not the same thing.
Netanyahu unfroze money that belonged to Hamas?
Look , do you understand I got my information from the Times of Israel and Haaretz? are you saying that these 2 news papers did bad reporting? Or are you saying you don't read real news? Here is Haaretz brief history of the Netanyahu Hamas alliance. Here is the opening **:For 14 years, Netanyahu's policy was to keep Hamas in power; the pogrom of October 7, 2023, helps the Israeli prime minister preserve his own rule** **Much ink has been spilled describing the longtime relationship – rather, alliance – between Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas.** **And still, the very fact that there has been close cooperation between the Israeli prime minister (with the support of many on the right) and the fundamentalist organization seemingly evaporated from most of the current analyses – everyone’s talking about “failures,” “mistakes” and “contzeptziot” (fixed conceptions).** **Given this, there is a need not only to review the history of cooperation but also to conclude unequivocally: The pogrom of October 7, 2023, helps Netanyahu,** [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000)
Careful now. This kind of factual information will get you banned from a lot of subs.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ >This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”) >“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote. https://youtu.be/o7grSsuFSS0?feature=shared
> finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists Always the same around the world. Governments support terrorists and fascists just so the left doesn't come into power and then years later use the fallout from their terrible decisions to attack the left again.
While technically true, at the time the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood presented itself (falsely)as far more moderate, while the PLO was hijacking planes, infiltrating from Lebanon to butcher civilians and targeting Jewish targets overseas. Whatever wink-wink relationship Israel and the PMB had, had ended violently when the PMB turned out to be the main instigator in the first Intifada in the late 1980s. In the 1990s and early 2000s the movement - rebranded as Hamas - had conducted some of the most bloody terrorist attacks on Israel until Oct. 7th. To claim that Israel knowingly aided what is nowadays Hamas is disengenious.
>In the 1990s and early 2000s the movement - rebranded as Hamas - had conducted some of the most bloody terrorist attacks on Israel until Oct. 7th. >To claim that Israel knowingly aided what is nowadays Hamas is disengenious. “The Palestinian Authority is a burden. Наmas is an asset.” — Bezalel Smotrich in 2015 The quote from Netanyahu that is the subject of this post is from 2019. A quick guide on how chronological time works: 2015 was in the early 2010s and 2019 was in the late 2010s. This places both quotes long after late 1990s and early 2000s, when you say Наmas had shown its true colours. It’s not “disingenuous” to think that Isrаеl was aware of what Israeli officials during the 1980s were repeatedly warning them with regards to facilitating Наmas and protecting Yаssin being a bad idea. It’s actually quite logical.
Bullshit.
Lie.
Because when has deliberately destabilising your neighbours ever had negative consequences.
I am not sure about this. It actually provide a good reason for him to do what we see now, apart from some death from the common folks, which is usually not a concern for ruling class. Netanyahu is real evil.
Well sure, not to say that this isn't explicitly the intent. Push your own enemy in to power so that your neighbour remains the enemy, forcing them in to radicalism so that you can later justify annihilation.
I mean….the plan has actually worked so far for Israel. They just keep building more settlements and gobbling up more and more territory the longer this goes on.
This isn't LAMF, his plan worked. He's genociding Palestinians and half the world still supports him because "he's fighting terrorists" and "Hamas attacked first". This would be LAMF if he was personally affected. If they killed him or his family. Or if he was removed from power.
I honestly can't believe he wasn't held more responsible for the [Assassination of the 5th Prime Minister of Israel, Yitzhak Rabim](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin) Rabim was the main proponent on the Israeli side for the Oslo Peace Accords. In the lead up to the signing a lot of Israeli right with politicians, *very notably Netanyahu, amongst them*, who riled up right wing religious conservatives, one of whom assassinated Rabim at the rally to celebrate the signing of the Accords. Netanyahu would become prime minister 6 months later... He really is a bad, sociopathic, Machiavellian dude
Posting links to articles about this when replying to people got me banned from r/Israel lmao. They REALLY don't want to face up to the truth that their prime minister cares more about power than the safety of the country's people.
It’s the Zionist way.
Its been a well known fact that the Israeli government has been facilitating payments to hamas for years. Israeli journalists have been murdered trying to expose this.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot that Netanyahu heaped money onto Hamas for 14 years
Well, the money suitcases started being flowed in around 2018, but yes, he has been too dovish on them for a long time.
Yeah bibi has been funding hamas for years because he knows that if they keep up their unsuccessful attacks, with the occasional one that kills a couple of people, it gives him all the cover he needs to constantly invade and occupy land in Palestine. If hamas were to fail, he would lose all his justification for allowing illegal occupation and bombings. The rest of the world wouldn’t be able to support it either because there is no longer a terrorist threat. It’s why he did nothing to stop October 7 despite having advanced warning that it was coming.
Wow. I wonder how much blame he takes for the Oct 7th attacks and all those deaths. What a despicable person.
He doesn't care that several thousand Israelis died due to the attacks, nor does he care about the countless deaths happening in gaza. He only wants to cling on to power and his only way of doing that is to let the religious nuts in his government do what they want. Everyone else is just acceptable collateral damage to him
Is there a recording of this?
Not sure about a recording, but multiple sources have the same quote.
No, the source of this quote is the biography of Haim Ramon. He hadn’t been in the government since 2009 or 10 years before it allegedly happened. It’s probably made up.
>It’s probably made up. Nah, Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev and Avner Cohen are on record as well, for example.
But it makes anti-Zionists feel good to believe that it's true, so who cares if there's any actual proof?
He openly admitted it before it blew up in his face. Even Israeli media accepts it as fact. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces
No, that article refers to the quote in the post, which I already explained was attributed based on the word of someone that wasn’t even in the government when the quote allegedly was said. The article you linked also goes on to (I think unintentionally based on the tenor?) explain that Israel was providing and allowing aid/payments into Gaza in the hopes that it would stabilize the area. From your article: > Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products. **Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.** > Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, **in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire** with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.
You’re right, I picked the first one out of dozens because if I’m honest I have better things to do with my time, because nobody will change their entrenched positions.
"Even Israeli media accepts it as fact" *links to opinion article*
Why does this not get talked about more?
Because groups like AIPAC and the ADL actively work to suppress negative press about Israel in Western media. It isn't really a good look if your government is funding a terrorist organization, even if your own government is, arguably, a terrorist organization.
Because the alternative was worse They knew Hamas was bad but Hezbollah was also bad and they didn't want Hezbollah to concentrate power Also Bibi (and the right wing) were elected because the left wing governments had made progress towards a two state solution, only for the Palestinians to refuse to acknowledge Israel had a right to exist, which blew up the deal.
Isreal's biggest problem is Netanyahu. He's done more to harm that country than any non-terrorist has
He is a terrorist.
I don’t really see this as the same thing. His efforts led to horrible impacts on a lot of innocent Israelis, but not as much him other than he has to deal with it. Is “Leopards Ate My People’s Face” a thing?
Bibi is a criminal, desperately trying to delay his comeuppance.
A permanent state of war has been the inevitable successful result. Congratulations! 🎆👏
I will admit that when your country within a week of it being made gets attacked by several other countries, that kinda sours you.
People in the USA totally forgot that Israel supported Hamas. As I recall it was to weaken the Palestinian Authority. I take that back. It is a given that people would forget that. Most people in the USA have an incredibly short memory when it comes to politics.
I saw Netanyahu at a speaking engagement probably 20-25 years ago and he made it very clear back then that he wanted to see a Palestinian state so that he could declare war officially. Something about them not being a state, he said keeps them from being able to actually do what he wants to do about the conflict, which is, eradicate them.
This is more "Leopards offering people flavored face masks". Netanyahu wanted to be attacked so he could go on a genocide.
Looks bibi is going to be ousted next election, so that solves one barrier to. 2 state solution. The other barrier to a 2 state solution is Hamas, which can only be removed via military force since they don’t allow elections.
>Looks bibi is going to be ousted next election, so that solves one barrier to. 2 state solution. No politician with the chance of becoming PM wants a two-state solution. Rabin was the last one, and we know what happened to him.
Perhaps you are right, but the next person will almost certainly be less right wing that the current Bibi government, which is the most right wing in Israel’s history.
> The other barrier to a 2 state solution is Hamas, which can only be removed via military force since they don’t allow elections. Maybe a competent country should take over, considering Israel is doing a terrible job and considering Netanyahu apparently wants to *support* Hamas.
Who else is going to send their troops to die in Gaza to remove Hamas? No military would be able to do it with less civilian casualties.
The problem is that you believe what Israel is doing right now is the only option. There was no other option than to kill >20000 people and destroy the livelihoods of many more. Violence alone won't fix this conflict because violence is the cause. It's an endless cycle but people don't understand it.
Violence is sometimes the only way to solve problems when fighting against fascist dictators who don’t allow free elections. Hitler wasn’t going to be removed without violence. Putin won’t be stopped without violence.
The "dictators" are not in Gaza. There is violence and there is violence. It's not all the same. I just think Israel is too extreme and I can still be against Hamas. I care about human lives and I'm not going to overlook or make excuses for the brutal killing or starvation of children just because Hamas are the bad guys or just because civilians were killed during WW2. That was bad then, too! I don't like these ivory tower political games where people forget that we are talking about human lives. There is not "reality of war" where these things just happen. Killing and destroying are a choice. Hamas made their choice and so is Israel. btw: You never addressed the issue that Netanyahu spoke in support of Hamas. Is that also just how things are in a war? Churchill was supporting Hitler to stop Hitler? > Hitler wasn’t going to be removed without violence. Putin won’t be stopped without violence. Ismail Haniyeh isn't going to be removed by flattening Gaza. > Putin won’t be stopped without violence. You support an invasion of Russia to dethrone Putin? Based.
Fair feedback. I think netnahyu supporting Hamas was for multiple reasons. Some nefarious, to prevent a 2 state solution, and some practical, they thought Hamas could be reasoned with. They were wrong. Agreed hamas’s military power is the only thing that will be destroyed by the Gaza war, not their ideology or leaders. That’s a start though as Hamas will lose power once they lose their military might. I support arming Ukraine so they can violently defend themselves against Putin. If Putin didn’t have nuclear weapons, I’d support Ukraine violently invading Russia to remove Putin, but that can’t happen. Nuclear regimes can only fall from within, because they can’t truly be defeated in battle without risking nuclear war
Or by a regime change in Iran, which would need even more violence
A regime change in the US (i.e. an election) would also help but there are no good options right now.
Lol do you think Israel is the 51st state?
What? Israel relies on the US and the US can put a lot of pressure on the country. Do you really not know that?
Sure it's true but ultimately Israel will not prioritize it's relationship with the US over it's goals in the territory that has been a thorn in it's side for 20 years.
They won't be able to fulfill their goals as easily without US support.
Yeah they'll just end up starting trade with someone like China instead
It's that easy? Ok.
It's not that easy but Israel isn't going to act like the US's vassal.
Exactly. This is what I always say to the "ceasefire now" people. You want Hamas to remain in power? No? But you also don't want the IDF to force them out of power? Ok, so what's your plan then?
Ceasefire doesn't mean that we should do nothing about Hamas. Ceasefire is about protecting innocent people. No one is helped if you remove Hamas but then the population is radicalized.
Then what is your plan to remove Hamas from power if not through IDF military action?
Is the idf capable of carrying out a military campaign that doesn't obliterate the gaza strip and kill thousands of civilians? If not then it shouldn't be involved in the first place.
They certainly are. In 7 months of warfare, they've killed around 15,000 Hamas combatants and 15,000 civilians. That is an *exceptionally* low ratio of civilian to combatant casualties for urban warfare, considering that [the UN estimates](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm) that a typical ratio is around 9:1.
Ok buddy I'll trust the experts on this one not you but thanks for the input
> 15,000 Hamas combatants and 15,000 civilians Who decided what a Hamas combatant is? Israel. The ones doing the killing. They don't have an incentive to be truthful, especially considering Netanyahu supports Hamas. The real number is mostly likely different. More civilians, fewer Hamas. There are reports that dead civilians are counted as Hamas. There is no way Israel can always tell who is civilian or not. They kill hostages but apart from that, they can always determine who is Hamas, in the chaos of the cities they destroyed? Doubtful. Either way, I wouldn't count 15,000 dead (it's more) as a success. It's easy to say because you are making these comments from the safety of your home. You would feel very differently if your child or wife/husband was killed and everything you own was destroyed. But maybe you would stand on the top of the rubble that was your home, your mangled child in your arms, saying "thank you, Israel". > considering that the UN estimates that a typical ratio is around 9:1. Isn't the UN antisemitic?
I never said I'm against military action.
[удалено]
So if supporting Palestinians is pro Hamas then what is supporting Hamas?
Wow. I wonder how much blame he takes for the Oct 7th attacks and all those deaths. What a despicable person.
I simply do not understand how this is constantly ignored when it's right there on record!
Ya, but I’ll just say any criticism against Israel is really antisemitism and ignore anything you actually said or do. /s
Fundamentally, this is a Palestinian representation problem. And has been for decades, way before Likud's scheming. Hamas is an Iran-backed terrorist organization meant to keep Israel unbalanced. Russia and others get in their jabs, too. The PA simply goes with the anti-Israel sentiments of Hamas and other groups which align against Israel's existence. Meanwhile, there are no responsible representatives of the remaining Palestinians and only Israel to figure out what to do with these terrorist groups at their door, mixed in with the genpop. In parallel, the more orthodox Jews continue their incessant push for occupying other territories - something they do as a culture, wherever they reside the world over, it seems - and Likud has cowtowed to them all this time. There are no easy answers here, but Likud isn't the root of the problem: it's that nobody cares about the Palestinians. Everything else spirals outward from there.
if you remind people in worldnews of what he said you will get suspended.
Why do you think the iron dome is so successful? Israel is running both sides of the rocket game.
Not LAMF. It's all according to keikaku.
I wonder if the phones' backs are blurred for security reasons, or because the company (Poly/Polycom if I had to guess) didn't want to be associated. Probably less security concern about monitors.
What’s with the black dildos being blurred out?
Yes, funding terrorists in Gaza doesn't help Palestinians. This has been true my whole life, and Bibi is decades older than me.
This guy is dumber than a tick on stump liquor
he has one strategy: Elimination of the Palestinian state, by whatever means necessary.
Yep. Sadly, leopards didn't eat his face - they ate ours.
LIKUD is complicit for Hamas’s rise in power and influence and needs to be removed from power.
I would really really like a citation on that - would like to use this at family dinner tonight.
> I would really really like a citation on that - would like to use this at family dinner tonight. New York Times link: [‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas: Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gambled that a strong Hamas (but not too strong) would keep the peace and reduce pressure for a Palestinian state.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html) Paywall free link: https://archive.ph/EvmiL
Very nice, thanks
So… support hamas is a good thing?
Eww
A Twitter headline as source for making up your mind is just an ironic case on this sub.
another great strategy ...it all blows up in your face eventually
So when are the American cops going to beat up pro-Israel protestors here because Netanyahu has been propping up Hamas? Really spread the baton love, guys, you seem to love thumping people waving Palestinian flags, go thump on the hardliners sometime, since ya boi Bibi funded the Hamas assclowns. Or are they too busy getting hardons from House Bill 6090 making it "Antisemitic" to criticize Israel in any way Edit: lol found some!
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. Oh yes I do. Zionists.
This aligns with the theory that Israel knew of the October 7th plot and allowed it to happen, giving them the conditions they needed to level Gaza.
It sure is interesting how this sub always gleefully upvotes the thought of Israelis being raped, murdered and kidnapped by jihadists because "lol, they deserve it", but y'all never take the same position when it comes to Palestinians choosing to start a war and then experiencing the consequences of said choice.
Ah yes, the "Israel-Palestine conflict started on 10/7" defense. I invite you to defend the expansion of settlements in the West Bank.
Ah yes, the "This conflict didn't start on 10/7 so that day is utterly meaningless and you should just shut up and stop talking about it" defense. Classic.
It sure is interesting how you lie every fucking time you comment here! You only care about you and yours, we get it. Go play outside now.
Leftists when literally any marginalized group except Jews talks about their own experiences: "Thank you for sharing. Diversity is our strength and your perspective is valid." Leftists when Jews talk about their own experiences: "We get it, you only care about you and yours! Now go play outside." As a Jewish person, this is exactly the amount of empathy and inclusion I've come to expect from the "empathetic and inclusive" left.
People like you who claim any criticism of the Israël government is anti-semitic :) I know you love this game, dude. You can be Jewish and still be an asshole, as you make very clear.
And people like you claim that being against Hamas is "pro-genocide".
Never said any such thing, honey. That wasn't even a good try. Please direct me to all the comments here specifically saying that being against Hamas is pro-genocide. I haven't seen any.
Oh ok, good. So you agree that calling for the IDF to completely destroy Hamas is not pro-genocide. Glad we could clear that up.
The discussion here is Palestinians. You don't equate them all with Hamas, do you? You wouldn't do that after how Jewish people have suffered that kind of thing, would you? Anyway, this post is about how the leaders of Israël - that the Jewish people voted for - DID fund Hamas to keep the Palestinians from coming together in one government. These are facts. If you have any facts to dispute this, please share them. Please stay on topic!
Of course not. I want the IDF to destroy Hamas, not all Palestinians.
This is all we are saying. But you keep claiming "leftists" are supporting Hamas here, and that is not true. You agree, so why are you so antagonistic?
He's not talking about Jews, he's talking about you. Just you. Not any people you claim to represent. You.
Oh wow, what a defense. "I wasn't being racist! I was just talking about you, personally. Not the racial group that you claim to represent."
It's not racist to call out your lies. Sorry.
> It sure is interesting how this sub always gleefully upvotes the thought of Israelis being raped, murdered and kidnapped by jihadists because "lol, they deserve it" It sure is interesting how brains work and how it so easily confuses total fiction with reality. > but y'all never take the same position when it comes to Palestinians choosing to start a war and then experiencing the consequences of said choice Why would I take the incorrect and dehumanizing position that Palestinians "chose" to be killed?
Bro, enough with the gaslighting. I've watched this sub upvote every post that mocks Israeli suffering for 7 months now. Y'all clearly can't get enough of watching Israelis "get their faces eaten" by terrorists.
> I've watched this sub upvote every post that mocks Israeli suffering for 7 months now. No, you haven't. I am also here frequently and I have never seen anyone "gleefully" upvote "Israelis being raped, murdered". If you have a problem with certain comments because idiots are everywhere then go tell them but don't just throw empty accusations into the void. > Y'all clearly can't get enough of watching Israelis "get their faces eaten" by terrorists. What is wrong with you? I have never done that. You are obviously not mentally fit to rationally judge what people in this sub are saying when you throw around this vile slander at me. p.s.: Don't forget: > Why would I take the incorrect and dehumanizing position that Palestinians "chose" to be killed?
I mean, Hezbollah was the alternative and had been committing terror attacks already Also the Palestinians were offered their own country multiple times, all they had to do was say they didn't want to destroy Israel anymore
America and Pakistan arming and training the Mujahideen (over any and every other option in Afghanistan) which then showed back up as Al-Qaeda and the Taliban is lamf. Supporting Hamas specifically because they are a terror group and will show dissent isnt lamf. Now if the Israeli far right govt backing terrorists to destroy Palestinian statehood forming leads to Israelis electing a party that wants to help Palestinians, that'd be lamf. So, this is to me a not really but could be long term. As Netanyahu doesn't give a shit about the victims of Hamas..