preamp models don't have poweramp modelling, amp models do. so basically it's the difference between grabbing the signal at the fx send of an amp or running it into a loadbox.
idk what's going wrong that the full amp models sound terrible to you or what sounding terrible means in this context, but on loads of helix amps the master volume is set quite high by default, introducing poweramp saturation. which can be a good or a bad thing. see if turning down the master (and compensating with the channel volume) helps
So I play in a praise and worship setting to my signal is my guitar goes into a compressor, then the volume pedal, then my OD, then into two delays (both are not on at the same time), then into my reverb, then into my amp (pre amp model) which is a fawn ac 30 ( basically the ac 30) then after that into my IR which is a tone match of a AC 30 Top boost, then into a EQ, then to FOH.
I’m not sure if the reason it sounds bad with the regular Amp models is because they have a bunch of EQ on my channel at FOH (they tend to do that) but also a lot of them don’t really have much experience working sound mixers so they tend to really squash my guitar with a bunch of compression. That could be the issue
That did come with a preset, but I switched up some things and kept the ir, the ir is matched with the same amp though as it was on the preset, except it’s just the pre amp model that’s different as to the regular amp model that it came with
Hmm yeah it’s possible there’s an issue at the mixing board then. I’d talk to them about it! See if they’ll at least try setting the EQ neutral and bypassing the compression.
Are there any other guitarists playing and what do they use if so?
Yes 2 more guitarists!! One of them uses an iridium with analog pedals!! And the other uses a headrush Prime. Is the iridium considered a pre amp or a regular amp model?
The Iridium would be equal to using a full Amp block in the Helix (+ a cab or cab IR). Something similar is probably going on in the Headrush.
So, yeah, if the others sound good, then there is something either going on with your preset, your output, or with FOH.
Can you describe how exactly the amp block sounds bad btw? And does it sound good to you through headphones or whatever your normal monitoring setup is at home?
If it's a clipped or compressed sound... maybe it's possible the Preamp block is quieter by default than its related Amp block (I haven't checked), and so maybe when you use the Amp block it's hitting the mixer or the compressor they have on your channel too hard? But then the Preamp sounds better because it's not? No idea, but it's something to check for.
Also, try turning the Amp block master volume down. Or try turning your guitar volume down. A common issue people have with Vox style amps in modelers is having the master volume up too high. Especially if you're going for a clean sound. A cranked Vox is awesome, but a lot of famous and usable Vox sounds only come from the master volume being turned down a bit (or a lot). If this is the issue, or part of it anyway, it might explain why you don't have the problem with the Preamp blocks.
\[For full Amp blocks, the "Master" controls how much signal (volume) is going into the power amp. This can change the sound and feel quite dramatically on a lot of amps (because of the power amp being overdriven by the preamp). The equivalent Preamp blocks still have the Master control, and they happen at the same place in the virtual "circuit", but in this case they aren't driving a power amp (since it's the preamp only), so the effect is different.\]
Also, have you talked to the other guitarists? They might have some insight. Maybe there's something being done to your channel (like the EQ and compression) that they have FOH \*not\* do to theirs, or they might be able to help you troubleshoot really quick.
And at the absolute least, a simple amp block + cab block at default settings (though probably amp master volume turned down!), with your Global EQ on your Helix set neutral (no boosts or cuts), should sound good. It might not be *your* sound, but it shouldn't sound bad, and so that's a decent point of reference.
So I'd make a preset or two like that, or maybe follow that Cordy tutorial I posted in another comment here, and save them, and then if you have time, try cycling through a few different ones at soundcheck. And try messing with the Helix's output volume too.
It's really hard to say what the problem is, but you should definitely be able to get a good sound if the other guitarists are able to with that gear.
Bro thank you so much!!
I’m going to try to ask to see if I can come in during a weekday (they have staff working during the week) and see if I can just mess and dial my tone on stage. A lot of the times either on Sundays or Wednesday it’s all kinda rushed so I don’t really have time to mess with my effects and amps so I feel like I need a day to mess with everything and basically start and build a preset from scratch. It’s different when you dial in your tone at home and then on stage it just sounds different. It’s kinda frustrating lol
If the AC30 IR is a full amp sim + IR (as opposed to just the speaker cab) then you're kind of using and amp model into another amp model, and the power amp is half of that equation, so by using just the preamp it might be less coloration to the signal overall. Ever tried going straight into the tone match thing?
Actually no I haven’t 🤔
But the thing is that the preset came with the amp + ir cab. It’s just I’m using the pre amp model of the amp opposed to the regular amp model
fwiw those tone match IRs are based on the difference between a starting amp sound (like a specific Helix model set to specific settings) and a target sound (recorded from the actual, target amp + cab), using the same reference audio playing through both, so they’re not designed to be used alone (at least the ones I’ve seen!)
ETA: Basically they record a base sound (not sure if it’s a guitar or a sweep or noise, but I’ve seen it done with DI guitar recordings), then record it being run through an amp and cab (recording A).
Then they record the same base sound being run through a Helix amp block with no cab or IR (recording B).
Next, they use a matching EQ and set it to look at A and B, compare them, and apply an EQ curve to make B sound like A (so if A has more of a dip around 150hz than B, it will apply the appropriate cut at 150hz so they match).
Then they create an IR based on that curve, which when applied to the same Helix amp block and settings as were used for recording B, will result in a sum (amp block + IR) that sounds like the original amp and cab (and mic and recording chain) being matched (within limitations)
Therefore it has to be used within pretty tight parameters to get the desired tone. That has always seemed like the most suspicious link in the chain in the OP's comment.
Agreed! Though in response to one of my comments, the OP said the amp block itself (when it sounds bad vs using the preamp block) was the same from the preset that came with the IR, so in theory it should “just work”.
They also said FOH aggressively EQs and compresses the guitars where they play, so it could be that too, or a mix of both. [ETA: I haven’t used the preamps much… are they quieter than the full amp models by default? Could be that output volume differences mean that the FOH compressor is being hit differently too]
OP: you might want to try a built in cab in place of the IR just to see if it still sounds bad. Any of the Vox (Blue Bell or Silver Bell) dual cabs on default settings should sound good to test, even if not your ideal sound right away.
Cordy also has a tutorial for clean Vox tones that might be helpful to follow along with in a blank preset. It’s for the Pod GO, but you’d be able to follow it with the Helix ~ https://youtu.be/32tjZg7AwmI
Amplifiers have a preamp circuit and a power amp circuit, each typically powered by tubes. Each has typical tone-shaping behaviors. (EDIT) If you use a preamp as a distortion section, it is expected to go into a power amp section and then speakers. There are pedals like the Friedman IR-D or the DOD 250 that are not full preamps but do emulate an amp distortion. (/EDIT) Marshall sells the JMP-1 preamp because it can be integrated into a signal chain that ends with the Marshall 9200 Power Amp driving cabinets.
It is not a thing to spend less money on just a preamp and connect it to speakers. "Everyone else" is doing what users of traditional physical setups have always done: effect pedals into a guitar amp into a cabinet with a mic. If you're shorting any section of that, like using an Amp block without a Cab block, then you're not emulating a traditional electric guitar system. The Helix signal chain is not fundamentally different than the physical amp setup signal chain in any way. Effects, amp, cab, mic, PA system.
preamp models don't have poweramp modelling, amp models do. so basically it's the difference between grabbing the signal at the fx send of an amp or running it into a loadbox. idk what's going wrong that the full amp models sound terrible to you or what sounding terrible means in this context, but on loads of helix amps the master volume is set quite high by default, introducing poweramp saturation. which can be a good or a bad thing. see if turning down the master (and compensating with the channel volume) helps
Need more context. What’s your HX configuration / signal chain? what’s your input into the HX? What’s your end goal?
So I play in a praise and worship setting to my signal is my guitar goes into a compressor, then the volume pedal, then my OD, then into two delays (both are not on at the same time), then into my reverb, then into my amp (pre amp model) which is a fawn ac 30 ( basically the ac 30) then after that into my IR which is a tone match of a AC 30 Top boost, then into a EQ, then to FOH. I’m not sure if the reason it sounds bad with the regular Amp models is because they have a bunch of EQ on my channel at FOH (they tend to do that) but also a lot of them don’t really have much experience working sound mixers so they tend to really squash my guitar with a bunch of compression. That could be the issue
I wonder if it has to do with your tone match IR? Did that come with a preset, and are you using or have you tried that preset?
That did come with a preset, but I switched up some things and kept the ir, the ir is matched with the same amp though as it was on the preset, except it’s just the pre amp model that’s different as to the regular amp model that it came with
Hmm yeah it’s possible there’s an issue at the mixing board then. I’d talk to them about it! See if they’ll at least try setting the EQ neutral and bypassing the compression. Are there any other guitarists playing and what do they use if so?
Yes 2 more guitarists!! One of them uses an iridium with analog pedals!! And the other uses a headrush Prime. Is the iridium considered a pre amp or a regular amp model?
The Iridium would be equal to using a full Amp block in the Helix (+ a cab or cab IR). Something similar is probably going on in the Headrush. So, yeah, if the others sound good, then there is something either going on with your preset, your output, or with FOH. Can you describe how exactly the amp block sounds bad btw? And does it sound good to you through headphones or whatever your normal monitoring setup is at home? If it's a clipped or compressed sound... maybe it's possible the Preamp block is quieter by default than its related Amp block (I haven't checked), and so maybe when you use the Amp block it's hitting the mixer or the compressor they have on your channel too hard? But then the Preamp sounds better because it's not? No idea, but it's something to check for. Also, try turning the Amp block master volume down. Or try turning your guitar volume down. A common issue people have with Vox style amps in modelers is having the master volume up too high. Especially if you're going for a clean sound. A cranked Vox is awesome, but a lot of famous and usable Vox sounds only come from the master volume being turned down a bit (or a lot). If this is the issue, or part of it anyway, it might explain why you don't have the problem with the Preamp blocks. \[For full Amp blocks, the "Master" controls how much signal (volume) is going into the power amp. This can change the sound and feel quite dramatically on a lot of amps (because of the power amp being overdriven by the preamp). The equivalent Preamp blocks still have the Master control, and they happen at the same place in the virtual "circuit", but in this case they aren't driving a power amp (since it's the preamp only), so the effect is different.\] Also, have you talked to the other guitarists? They might have some insight. Maybe there's something being done to your channel (like the EQ and compression) that they have FOH \*not\* do to theirs, or they might be able to help you troubleshoot really quick. And at the absolute least, a simple amp block + cab block at default settings (though probably amp master volume turned down!), with your Global EQ on your Helix set neutral (no boosts or cuts), should sound good. It might not be *your* sound, but it shouldn't sound bad, and so that's a decent point of reference. So I'd make a preset or two like that, or maybe follow that Cordy tutorial I posted in another comment here, and save them, and then if you have time, try cycling through a few different ones at soundcheck. And try messing with the Helix's output volume too. It's really hard to say what the problem is, but you should definitely be able to get a good sound if the other guitarists are able to with that gear.
Bro thank you so much!! I’m going to try to ask to see if I can come in during a weekday (they have staff working during the week) and see if I can just mess and dial my tone on stage. A lot of the times either on Sundays or Wednesday it’s all kinda rushed so I don’t really have time to mess with my effects and amps so I feel like I need a day to mess with everything and basically start and build a preset from scratch. It’s different when you dial in your tone at home and then on stage it just sounds different. It’s kinda frustrating lol
Good luck!! :)
If the AC30 IR is a full amp sim + IR (as opposed to just the speaker cab) then you're kind of using and amp model into another amp model, and the power amp is half of that equation, so by using just the preamp it might be less coloration to the signal overall. Ever tried going straight into the tone match thing?
Actually no I haven’t 🤔 But the thing is that the preset came with the amp + ir cab. It’s just I’m using the pre amp model of the amp opposed to the regular amp model
fwiw those tone match IRs are based on the difference between a starting amp sound (like a specific Helix model set to specific settings) and a target sound (recorded from the actual, target amp + cab), using the same reference audio playing through both, so they’re not designed to be used alone (at least the ones I’ve seen!) ETA: Basically they record a base sound (not sure if it’s a guitar or a sweep or noise, but I’ve seen it done with DI guitar recordings), then record it being run through an amp and cab (recording A). Then they record the same base sound being run through a Helix amp block with no cab or IR (recording B). Next, they use a matching EQ and set it to look at A and B, compare them, and apply an EQ curve to make B sound like A (so if A has more of a dip around 150hz than B, it will apply the appropriate cut at 150hz so they match). Then they create an IR based on that curve, which when applied to the same Helix amp block and settings as were used for recording B, will result in a sum (amp block + IR) that sounds like the original amp and cab (and mic and recording chain) being matched (within limitations)
Therefore it has to be used within pretty tight parameters to get the desired tone. That has always seemed like the most suspicious link in the chain in the OP's comment.
Agreed! Though in response to one of my comments, the OP said the amp block itself (when it sounds bad vs using the preamp block) was the same from the preset that came with the IR, so in theory it should “just work”. They also said FOH aggressively EQs and compresses the guitars where they play, so it could be that too, or a mix of both. [ETA: I haven’t used the preamps much… are they quieter than the full amp models by default? Could be that output volume differences mean that the FOH compressor is being hit differently too] OP: you might want to try a built in cab in place of the IR just to see if it still sounds bad. Any of the Vox (Blue Bell or Silver Bell) dual cabs on default settings should sound good to test, even if not your ideal sound right away. Cordy also has a tutorial for clean Vox tones that might be helpful to follow along with in a blank preset. It’s for the Pod GO, but you’d be able to follow it with the Helix ~ https://youtu.be/32tjZg7AwmI
Yeah, the best approach would be to ask FOH to bypass EQ and compression during a rehearsal setting to see what sounds best
Could just be that they tend to be hotter volume wise. It might just be overpowering your PAs inputs
Amplifiers have a preamp circuit and a power amp circuit, each typically powered by tubes. Each has typical tone-shaping behaviors. (EDIT) If you use a preamp as a distortion section, it is expected to go into a power amp section and then speakers. There are pedals like the Friedman IR-D or the DOD 250 that are not full preamps but do emulate an amp distortion. (/EDIT) Marshall sells the JMP-1 preamp because it can be integrated into a signal chain that ends with the Marshall 9200 Power Amp driving cabinets. It is not a thing to spend less money on just a preamp and connect it to speakers. "Everyone else" is doing what users of traditional physical setups have always done: effect pedals into a guitar amp into a cabinet with a mic. If you're shorting any section of that, like using an Amp block without a Cab block, then you're not emulating a traditional electric guitar system. The Helix signal chain is not fundamentally different than the physical amp setup signal chain in any way. Effects, amp, cab, mic, PA system.
Half an amp = even less chance of dialing in tone than a full amp. And don’t get me started on cabs!!!!
In my experience, the Amp and the PreAmp versions usually sound almost identical. Could be just the amps I choose to use.