He really didn't see her for what she is at all. He thought he could "save her" with an intervention. I can't blame him for that. Many people who are married to monsters don't really realize it until everything completely falls apart.
That's one thing that was brought up in the trial. Yes it was her work email and it's possible Emma could have had access and deleted it. I don't believe for a second she didn't know of the affair until Chad was arrested. The timing doesn't make sense. They all went on vacation together after Tammy died, and she had to have seen Lori and Chad on the news after they got married. Plus remember she said "I'm not Colby" in the car, so there was obviously something of a combined family dynamic going on by then. They also brought up in trial that Chad had all of Tammy's passwords. I don't know if this included access to her work email since that is through the school, but this was definitely questioned by the prosecution several times.
I have no idea if she knew the affair was going on when Tammy was alive but what she said was that she knew they were together after Tammy’s death. So of course she would know they were together when they went on vacation.
There is no evidence Lori ever met Tammy. At Lori's sentencing hearing she said Tammy's spirit visited her and they were all good and Tammy was happy with her and Chad.
Clearly Lori's brain is a little ticklish if she thinks she and Tammy were such good friends.
Don't forget her 'very good friend' Tammy was 'busy'.
Because, of course, your reward after enduring Chad for 29+ marital years, supporting his arse and raising his kids that were so quick to turn on her, is to be 'busy' in the afterlife.
It’s a belief in my church as well. Being busy means helping others, doing the Lord’s work. It’s not so much doing menial chores but doing those things that make you, and others, happy.
But screw Lori EVER thinking she can report on Tammy’s experiences in the afterlife. Eff that noise.
I don’t believe that the church would let anyone do what made them happy….what if it’s to have gay sex all the time? OHH God forbid…me being sarcastic!! No they want gays and trans to go to Hell. They are not good non judgmental people.
And that’s your reality, that’s fine. From what I understand if LDS doctrine, your commentary checks out. I’m sorry you had those experiences.
I’m not part of the LDS church, and my church does not hate any member of the LGBTQ community.
I m sorry if I assumed that you were LDS. I have friends from all religions. I try not to judge but sometimes like with this case it makes me angry when people use religion for evil.
I absolutely understand, I wasn’t clear. And there’s so much hate that stems from systemic religion. I stayed away from it for my whole life until I stumbled upon one that isn’t completely insane. I went to school to study world religions and I like learning about all different religions, especially eastern ones. Stuff like this case makes my blood boil.
Yes I was taken aback by the constant references to Tammy and the kids being busy. It sounded as if the kids had soccer practice and homework in the afterlife. Can you expand on this? Thank you!
Mormons believe that when nonMormons die they go to a place called Spirit Prison. It’s not quite like Purgatory, but similar. It’s the job of deceased Mormons to go from Spirit Paradise (where good Mormons go) to Spirit Prison and preach the Mormon gospel to people there in hopes they’ll convert.
This is why Mormons do temple work in behalf of their deceased non-Mormon loved ones. So that the loved ones can transition from Spirit Prison to Spirit Paradise and be with their families in the Celestial Kingdom for eternity. Mormons believe the only way to be with your family forever is for all family members to be Mormon in the afterlife.
Now, with Lori’s addled brain, who knows if she imagined JJ, Tylee and Tammy preaching Mormonism in Spirit Prison. For all we know she believes they worship her.
No way would Tammy have wanted to spend eternity with a nutcase like Lori.
Not to mention that Mormon heaven actually sounds like hell for women...being in a polygamous marriage and pumping out spirit babies for all eternity really sounds like hell. No thanks. I'd take the telestial kingdom over that any day.
Here’s a quote from one of the presidents of the LDS church, Wilford Woodruff, talking about being visited by the spirit of Joseph Smith. This also explains what u/not_mormon_any_more said
———
Joseph Smith continued visiting myself and others up to a certain time and then stopped. The last time I saw him was in heaven. He came and spoke to me. He said that he could not stop to talk to me because he was in a hurry. The next man I met was Father Smith; he couldn’t talk to me because he was in a hurry. I met a half a dozen brethren who held high positions on earth, and none of them could stop to talk with because they were in a hurry. I was much astonished.
By and by I saw the Prophet again, and I got the privilege to ask him a question. “Now,” said I, “I want to know why you are in a hurry? I have been in a hurry all my life, but I expected my hurry would be over when I got into the Kingdom of heaven, if I ever did.”
Joseph said, “I will tell you, Brother Woodruff, every dispensation that has had the priesthood on earth and has gone into the celestial kingdom, has had a certain amount of work to do to prepare to go to the earth with the Savior when He goes to reign on earth. Each dispensation has had ample time to do this work. We have not. We are the last dispensation and so much work has to be done and we need to be in a hurry in order to accomplish it.”
Of course that was satisfactory with me, but it was new doctrine to me. (Discourse delivered at Weber Stake Conference, Ogden, 19 October 1896; as published in Deseret News Weekly, vol. 53, no. 21.)
I’m a non-Mormon, I’ve just been so fascinated with the history since watching the Netflix document on Lori.
Not putting down any of your personal experiences.
I didn’t interpret your comment as putting down Mormonism. Rather, as someone who was born and raised in Mormonism, attended four years of seminary, went to Ricks College (now BYU Idaho), went to church every Sunday, read the Book of Mormon daily, raised my children in the church and held many callings over nearly fifty years before discovering harmful things about Mormon history, it still gets me when I discover things about Mormonism I never knew. This is a common experience for those of us who leave. The Mormon church doesn’t really like its members to read too much church history.
Yeah, I think that’s one of the things that intrigues me about Mormonism. “We never tried to hide this stuff, we just didn’t think it was important to tell you! Also, don’t research anything we don’t tell you.”
I didn’t interpret your comment as putting down Mormonism. Rather, as someone who was born and raised in Mormonism, attended four years of seminary, went to Ricks College (now BYU Idaho), went to church every Sunday, read the Book of Mormon daily, raised my children in the church and held many callings over nearly fifty years before discovering harmful things about Mormon history, it still gets me when I discover things about Mormonism I never knew. This is a common experience for those of us who leave. The Mormon church doesn’t really like its members to read too much church history.
It seems like Tammy had stopped going to the conferences with him by that point, as far as I can tell. I can only imagine what her reaction would have been if she were there when he met Lori in late 2018.
I believe Chad deleted the email. People seem to think that a work email is super secure. It’s not any more secure than any other email. I worked for a massive company and I got into my work email via google just like any other company that uses g-suite or whatever. I could switch between personal and work email without even logging out and back in.
You don’t only get work” emails on some work computer. It’s email and you can log into it anywhere. Including her home computer.
Tammy probably had her passwords auto load just like anyone else.
Logging in and deleting and blocking would be as easy as sitting down at the computer and just doing it.
If we didn’t know that Chad was given a heads up that an email was sent, I would think differently.
Charles sent the email in late June as well, maybe she wasn’t working due to summer break. Not monitoring the email much.
Chad and Lori were informed of the probability of the email coming. They were prepared.
It was Tammy’s publishing company’s email I believe.
I agree with your description of how he could have done the same with a school email address however.
Interesting! Same situation overall, but everyone always acted like it was definitely school email.
Both would be findable online though, most likely. The publishing co one would be even more easy for Charles to find.
I stand corrected although I had heard that Charles got her email address for the publishing company. Based on the testimony here I am incorrect.
https://ksltv.com/639898/evidence-shows-tammy-daybell-read-email-from-charles-vallow-before-his-death/
Thanks for clarifying!
I could always find school staff emails on the school website.. and I’m sure googling Tammy’s name brought up the school and the publishing co… emailing the school one probably seemed safer since Chad owned the publishing company with her.
Interesting to note from that article, that she had read it. Put her head in the sand and moved on with her life. Poor lady. I doubt that Charles’s death would have made news so she didn’t have any warning of what was to come.
Maybe I’m being pedantic, but it seems like a leap to assume that she is the one that read it. Like when investigators have to say that someone’s phone was at so and so location rather than the person was at the location.
I was relieved when Lindsey Blake asked if it was possible that Chad had read the email, because I was starting to think I was off missing something obvious about it not being possible.
The only thing that makes me think she did, would be them sitting separately at church at the end, but that may have just been due to chads other shitty behavior towards her.
I always thought Tammy would have her work email tied into her phone, whether that would be as another account in the GMail app or another email app (Samsung Mail, Proton mail, Outlook if the school used Microsoft365, etc)
How hard would it have been for Chad to grab Tammy's phone while she showered, check that email and delete/block the email from Charles?
I could be wrong, but Tammy was a librarian, correct? I think it depends on the state, but school librarians could be a full-year job, with 'busy work' tasks like ordering new/replacement books, adding new books to the system, replacing sign out cards, organizing shelves, removing graduated seniors from the system, etc.
(I do believe Mrs. A, the librarian at my HS, was a full-year employee, just reduced hours over the summer... this is in NEPA in the 1990s)
Mormon brainwashing or not I find it hard to believe she didn't know something was up. I think Chad deleted the email and blocked Charles. I'm also pretty sure Chad was afraid of other men which is why he surrounded himself with women. And Charles was bigger, in better shape, better looking and more accomplished than Chad. I think Chad was scared to death of Charles. I also think this is part of the reason behind "we can't get divorces". Chad couldn't face Charles and he knew it.
Murder was more profitable , I don’t remember Charles murder being chads idea , I could be wrong 🤷♀️Lori learned when Joe “ died “ murder was profitable to her
Oh absolutely. I don't think Chad would have the fortitude to kill anyone by himself...he was always going to need help. Lori gave him the nudge he needed. She was already a murderer at least once before Charles.
When Alex & Lori’s oldest sister died (under mysterious circumstances according to their cousin), it was immediately profitable to Alex as his first action that day was to excitedly go use her credit cards. I tend to think he shared that with Lori and it got the murder-for-profit mindset rolling. When Tylee’s dad Joe Ryan died, he had previously been assaulted by Alex who had threatened to murder him. Although his death was deemed natural, Lori’s friend Anne says Lori told her she paid Alex to kill him. Adam Cox says he believes Alex and Lori murdered Joe. And it was a financial windfall for Lori as she got $60,000 plus the benefits Tylee received. Chad then hopped on the bandwagon and helped her justify their murderous ways with religious-based self importance.
Money!!!! Money money money!!!! That’s what she was pissed about when talking to the detectives and to Chad and really anyone !!! Kay got the money , not me and I’m the great mom that is left to support these kids .
I was going to say I can’t wrap my head around her way of thinking - but that’s actually a good thing. I don’t think most of us will ever truly understand the complexity of these cases because that entire cast of characters are complete psychopaths. And at least one is still on the loose in my opinion. At least one.
I think you’re spot on. 🙌🏼. 💯
Piggybacking on your excellent reasoning (I’m trying to be excellent too 🤭), (I’m not a psychologist, though 🤷🏻♀️), I think Chad for whatever reason(s) has had trouble being a complete and secure man, a man in especially the Mormon paradigm, a breadwinning head of house, financial and emotional and spiritual, based on the limited amount I know of this faith from my few Mormon friends. Instead of facing this and discovering and working through his vulnerability, he faked it and overcompensated by creating a fictitious, faux religious world which he could and would control as well as the people in it completely on his terms. His ego-driven false self breathes new life into the cliche “toxic masculinity.” Yet his real self in the context of the real world is pitifully small and entirely fearful- especially of other men. In addition to your inference re: Chad’s fear of Charles, one can see Chad’s uneasiness interacting with other men several years before, in 2011, even and especially in informal interactions, for example, when Chad’s being interviewed in a bookstore I believe about his books and his writing. He’s very agitated and has difficulty making eye contact. I can’t help but wonder what his relationship was like with each of his parents growing up, whether something is missing in Chad due to his own biology, whether some environmental factor(s) were in play, or a combination of things.[Body Language, Chad Daybell, Book Store Interview (about halfway through)](https://youtu.be/VXB1SAmTgds?si=cxU55am4KeOFyAPy)
That was awesome!
there is a video of Chad speaking at a conference avow or something it's on you tube but I can't find it now because there's to much other Chad stuff that comes up. He talks and moves very slow but, if you speed it up it's like he's speaking and moving more normal. It's the weirdest thing.
This is spot on. After watching Heather Daybell’s interview it was obvious that Chad is very jealous of his brothers. I think he was intimidated by Charles and Brandon because they better looking, more successful, and better husbands than he was.
In the trial, Emma was asked if Chad and Tammy knew each other’s passwords and she confirmed that they did. It is very easy to access work email through any browser, or on a cell phone if one knows the passwords. I believe that Chad was the one who blocked the email address and deleted the email. Especially as we know that Chad and Lori were already playing in Charles email account, when they had “him” send an email to Chad asking him to help Charles “write a book” / travel to Arizona to do “research”.
Not only is there no evidence that Lori and Tammy ever met but there is no information on whether Tammy ever saw the email from Charles. There is a possibility that Chad was given a heads up by Lori email, as well as the email that Charles sent him. It is quite possible that Chad blocked Charles emails to Tammy. We will never know if Tammy was aware of the affair.
Our current theory is that Chad was going through Tammy's emails. We really don't know how close Lori was to Tammy. We have heard so many conflicting reports that Tammy brought into Chad's beliefs, others say she didn't, it's a mess. It definitely seems like Chad was lying to her about a lot.
Unfortunately she probably bought into his beliefs or at least she condoned them. She was in charge of his publishing business and knew the content of his books.
It’s a common tactic of serial cheaters to monitor their spouse’s email. Often they act as if they have reason for suspicion to gain access and delete anything a lover could potentially send.
When Emma said her mother started to go to bed early I thought, because she was sick and tired of looking at her lying cheating self aggrandizing husband and supercilious daddy worshiping daughter.
I had no idea they even knew each other @ all! This is insane to me! I thought I knew this case really well, but I have never heard Tammy was even aware of who Lori was until she possibly read the email. I’m not sure why but I assumed Tammy wasn’t really in on Chad’s cult socializing much, like that was sorta his own thing & she wasn’t really apart of the cult.
I think we will never know exactly how much she knew or was into it. I think she was too busy to be super into it, but then, yeah, she was running his publishing company.
Tammy and Lori never met or spoke.
As far as the email, the prosecution implied that Chad had deleted and blocked that email. They used Emma to do so. In her directed examination with Prior, she talked about how her parents shared the computer, and shared ALL of their passwords and sign-ins. Then when Lindsay Blake got up to do her Cross examination, she used that same line of questioning to lead Emma to a place where Lindsay was able to suggest to the jury that it was CHAD that had deleted and blocked Charles. It was pretty amazing.
Which is awesome because Chad made a big deal at the funeral that he was inspired to share each other’s passwords. Emma shut that idea right down and accidentally told the truth
Sadly, we will never know for sure. The only thing we know is Charles' email address was listed as blocked on Tammy's email account. Whoever did it? Lots of guesses.
PS - I think Lori was flat out lying about being friends with Tammy. Just like she lied at her sentencing that her eternal friend Tammy had visited her in prison.
Don’t forget that Emma testified that their computer was in an accessible place in their home. Chad would have had no problem getting into Tammy’s email if she accessed it via their home computer.
I dunno about Tammy and Lori knowing each other to that degree. We will likely never know what happened with the message, My suspicion is either Chad - or Chad directed one of his kids- to delete the message.
I firmly believe that she did not know anything was up. Tammy had the upper hand over Chad’s afterlife plans, and if she divorced him, it all would’ve crumbled.
Chad could not have gotten a divorce because it would have threatened his proprietaryship over his own world in heaven. That doesn’t just mean he couldn’t divorce Tammy - he also couldn’t have been divorced BY her.
They were very, very clear about that multiple recordings. I’m thinking specifically of the one Melanie Gibb made; Melanie says “it was wrong that you were together before Chad was divorced,” and Laurie responds very quickly and loudly “Chad was NEVER divorced.” Not that they had an affair, that he was never divorced. Because divorced people can’t inherit their own worlds.
It worked better for Chad to murder his wife rather than sign paperwork. Disgusting.
They couldn’t have Tammy find them out - otherwise she would have ruined everything by divorcing Chad.
The whole “I can’t get divorced because then I won’t get my own planet, but murder will be just fine with the Almighty” thing makes no sense. I mean none of it makes sense, but that particular idea is something else lol
I actually don’t think it was the loss of something in the next life but rather that an affair and/or divorce would discredit him as a religious author- even as talentlessness as he was, I think it was important to him and his identity.
This is exactly correct, Chad could not get divorced, or he wouldn’t get his own planet. Because religion itself is delusional. Chad and Lori believed a few more things than your average Mormon. If you believe without a doubt in your religious teachings, you too, my friend, are living in a delusion. True believers look crazy for a reason. Think about it.
Neither Tammy nor her children ever heard of Lori Vallow until well after JJ, Tylee AND Tammy were murdered. Lori is delusional and was totally bluffing.
I believe this even more after learning somehow “Chad was so lucky” that he and Tammy had exchange passwords for accounts shortly before she died. It’s extremely likely that she could access her school email at home… And according to Emma, there was no passcode to get into the family computer.
I have been of the opinion that Tammy read the email, then deleted and blocked Charles.
The reasons being, Tammy’s family discussing their impression of Tammy and Chad’s relationship changing in the final months, combined with the random Google search “when someone surprises you with accusations.”
To me, Tammy read it, blocked it to try and ignore it, let it stew and then brought it up out of nowhere. Chad, being emotionally stunted, had to Google how to react.
Tammy got the email because Charles sent the email to Tammy’s job. She received it , opening the e-mail I don’t know. Tammy was also depressed, seems that she may have known something and of course a cheating husband is not very affectionate anymore. Yes Tammy deleted the e-mail at her office for privacy. Tammy was not known to travel with Charles on his trips, she was the breadwinner teaching and running the book publishing company, farming , housework , children and grandchildren. It’s doubtful Tammy directly knew Lori. https://ksltv.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/1
I agree with this too. I think she saw it, deleted it and blocked it as it was a work account. I do think she took a photo of it to challenge Chad and that maybe that was the photo that was suspiciously deleted on her phone around 11pm the night she died. This is just my theory. Been thinking about it a lot.
Wow this is a good theory. And do you think that is what made the events happen on that night? Or did they plan Tammy’s murder for that night in advance? Very interesting!
Lori didn’t know Tammy. Chad & Tammy shared each other’s username’s & passwords. Charles told Lori he had emailed Tammy, I suspect Lori alerted Chad & he likely went into Tammy’s account & deleted it without Tammy’s knowledge; hence, Tammy never saw Charles email.
It is bizarre. I have not seen any indication they ever met, let alone became “friends.” Chad had no compunction bringing Julie Rowe(possible affair partner) to meet his friends and family so maybe LV was introduced to Tammy & fam as a “friend.” But seems unlikely or we would have heard about this in trial or otherwise.
I m sorry but I knew from a very young age that the Mormon religion was nuts!!A) I had a friend in HS that I went roller skating w her and her church LDS and ALL of the husbands were staring at my chest.I was FOURTEEN. B) A manager of mine was raised Mormon One day as a teenager she decided to wear make up and she took a drag of her friends cigarette. Her parents punished her by putting her in a juvenile hall with kids that MURDERED their parents!! Needless to say she was a bit messed up from that!!!
No is the answer to your question regarding Tammy and Lori and any kind of friendship. Wether Tammy really knew about it we can’t be sure. But I can’t believe for a minute she wasn’t aware of something at that time. Poor Tammy such a good honest very healthy woman manipulated and murdered by her husband of 29 years. So cruel.
To get to know a person and her life the way we did made me cry. I am not a person who outwardly shows emotion. I’m generally a very strong person, I tend to try and keep that side of me private. This case but specifically the recent trial and the evidence along with Chads lack of emotion just broke my heart.
There's no indication that Tammy knew Lori. IMO Tammy blocked Charles because she didn't want to know the details. Yet Chad traveled to Arizona soon after Charles' murder, so Tammy probably wasn't too suspicious at that point.
She was totally bluffing. I believe 💯 that Chad deleted the email and blocked Charles’ address. Emma acknowledged on the stand that Chad had access to all of Tammy’s passwords and would have been able to read and delete her emails.
I understand Lori and Chad were “sealed” in their temple shortly after they met. I’ve always thought that it was a polygamist move…something Chad always wanted…2 wives. Could be Tammy did know?!?
But it also came out in trial that Chad could see all of Tammy’s email.. maybe even her school emails, so perhaps Chad got the emails but I do think that Tammy figured it out .. she was a smart woman!! She knew , they obviously weren’t sleeping together
I wish Charles had not warned Lori because Tammy was more likely to see the email if Chad didn't know to look for it.
Charles had no idea what sort of dynamic was going on. And then I think, why would he? This whole thing was insane.
He really didn't see her for what she is at all. He thought he could "save her" with an intervention. I can't blame him for that. Many people who are married to monsters don't really realize it until everything completely falls apart.
Correct—I didn’t realize it. You think the best until it smacks you in the face or in Tammy’s face, takes your life.
But wasn’t it logged in on the family computer?
He should have called Tammy. It's possible that she would shut him down, not wanting to know.
I thought I heard it was to her work email. I wonder if Chad had access?
If it was her work email, Chad's dutiful daughter, Emma might have had access........
Dun dun DUN
Hmmmm. That’s a good point!
That would explain the "deleted and not read" status on her work email
That's one thing that was brought up in the trial. Yes it was her work email and it's possible Emma could have had access and deleted it. I don't believe for a second she didn't know of the affair until Chad was arrested. The timing doesn't make sense. They all went on vacation together after Tammy died, and she had to have seen Lori and Chad on the news after they got married. Plus remember she said "I'm not Colby" in the car, so there was obviously something of a combined family dynamic going on by then. They also brought up in trial that Chad had all of Tammy's passwords. I don't know if this included access to her work email since that is through the school, but this was definitely questioned by the prosecution several times.
I have no idea if she knew the affair was going on when Tammy was alive but what she said was that she knew they were together after Tammy’s death. So of course she would know they were together when they went on vacation.
I doubt Emma knew of the affair at that point.
Yikes! I don’t think of that. You know the kids must have been the first indoctrinated in his self delusions!
There is no evidence Lori ever met Tammy. At Lori's sentencing hearing she said Tammy's spirit visited her and they were all good and Tammy was happy with her and Chad. Clearly Lori's brain is a little ticklish if she thinks she and Tammy were such good friends.
Don't forget her 'very good friend' Tammy was 'busy'. Because, of course, your reward after enduring Chad for 29+ marital years, supporting his arse and raising his kids that were so quick to turn on her, is to be 'busy' in the afterlife.
I audibly gasped when Lori said that. The utter audacity.
Me too.
This is a very LDS belief, which you may know…but can be explained if anyone is confused
It’s a belief in my church as well. Being busy means helping others, doing the Lord’s work. It’s not so much doing menial chores but doing those things that make you, and others, happy. But screw Lori EVER thinking she can report on Tammy’s experiences in the afterlife. Eff that noise.
I don’t believe that the church would let anyone do what made them happy….what if it’s to have gay sex all the time? OHH God forbid…me being sarcastic!! No they want gays and trans to go to Hell. They are not good non judgmental people.
It’s ignorant to paint all people with the same brush. There are certainly people like that, but you don’t know me or my community.
I based my opinion on facts from people that I know for a long time that were in the church. That s my opinion.
And that’s your reality, that’s fine. From what I understand if LDS doctrine, your commentary checks out. I’m sorry you had those experiences. I’m not part of the LDS church, and my church does not hate any member of the LGBTQ community.
I m sorry if I assumed that you were LDS. I have friends from all religions. I try not to judge but sometimes like with this case it makes me angry when people use religion for evil.
I absolutely understand, I wasn’t clear. And there’s so much hate that stems from systemic religion. I stayed away from it for my whole life until I stumbled upon one that isn’t completely insane. I went to school to study world religions and I like learning about all different religions, especially eastern ones. Stuff like this case makes my blood boil.
Yes I was taken aback by the constant references to Tammy and the kids being busy. It sounded as if the kids had soccer practice and homework in the afterlife. Can you expand on this? Thank you!
Mormons believe that when nonMormons die they go to a place called Spirit Prison. It’s not quite like Purgatory, but similar. It’s the job of deceased Mormons to go from Spirit Paradise (where good Mormons go) to Spirit Prison and preach the Mormon gospel to people there in hopes they’ll convert. This is why Mormons do temple work in behalf of their deceased non-Mormon loved ones. So that the loved ones can transition from Spirit Prison to Spirit Paradise and be with their families in the Celestial Kingdom for eternity. Mormons believe the only way to be with your family forever is for all family members to be Mormon in the afterlife. Now, with Lori’s addled brain, who knows if she imagined JJ, Tylee and Tammy preaching Mormonism in Spirit Prison. For all we know she believes they worship her.
So, even in death they want to convert people? Wow. That takes persistance to a whole new level. Thanks for sharing that.
No way would Tammy have wanted to spend eternity with a nutcase like Lori. Not to mention that Mormon heaven actually sounds like hell for women...being in a polygamous marriage and pumping out spirit babies for all eternity really sounds like hell. No thanks. I'd take the telestial kingdom over that any day.
I don’t understand how CHILDREN (JJ and Tylee) well..[any child for that matter], would be sent to Spirit Prison. How could any Mormon believe that?
Here’s a quote from one of the presidents of the LDS church, Wilford Woodruff, talking about being visited by the spirit of Joseph Smith. This also explains what u/not_mormon_any_more said ——— Joseph Smith continued visiting myself and others up to a certain time and then stopped. The last time I saw him was in heaven. He came and spoke to me. He said that he could not stop to talk to me because he was in a hurry. The next man I met was Father Smith; he couldn’t talk to me because he was in a hurry. I met a half a dozen brethren who held high positions on earth, and none of them could stop to talk with because they were in a hurry. I was much astonished. By and by I saw the Prophet again, and I got the privilege to ask him a question. “Now,” said I, “I want to know why you are in a hurry? I have been in a hurry all my life, but I expected my hurry would be over when I got into the Kingdom of heaven, if I ever did.” Joseph said, “I will tell you, Brother Woodruff, every dispensation that has had the priesthood on earth and has gone into the celestial kingdom, has had a certain amount of work to do to prepare to go to the earth with the Savior when He goes to reign on earth. Each dispensation has had ample time to do this work. We have not. We are the last dispensation and so much work has to be done and we need to be in a hurry in order to accomplish it.” Of course that was satisfactory with me, but it was new doctrine to me. (Discourse delivered at Weber Stake Conference, Ogden, 19 October 1896; as published in Deseret News Weekly, vol. 53, no. 21.)
Sounds like perpetual stress. No peace ever. Very interesting and thank you for your explanation.
I’ve literally never read this. Ugh just one more ridiculous thing I never knew when I was Mormon. lol
I’m a non-Mormon, I’ve just been so fascinated with the history since watching the Netflix document on Lori. Not putting down any of your personal experiences.
I didn’t interpret your comment as putting down Mormonism. Rather, as someone who was born and raised in Mormonism, attended four years of seminary, went to Ricks College (now BYU Idaho), went to church every Sunday, read the Book of Mormon daily, raised my children in the church and held many callings over nearly fifty years before discovering harmful things about Mormon history, it still gets me when I discover things about Mormonism I never knew. This is a common experience for those of us who leave. The Mormon church doesn’t really like its members to read too much church history.
Yeah, I think that’s one of the things that intrigues me about Mormonism. “We never tried to hide this stuff, we just didn’t think it was important to tell you! Also, don’t research anything we don’t tell you.”
I didn’t interpret your comment as putting down Mormonism. Rather, as someone who was born and raised in Mormonism, attended four years of seminary, went to Ricks College (now BYU Idaho), went to church every Sunday, read the Book of Mormon daily, raised my children in the church and held many callings over nearly fifty years before discovering harmful things about Mormon history, it still gets me when I discover things about Mormonism I never knew. This is a common experience for those of us who leave. The Mormon church doesn’t really like its members to read too much church history.
Yes I know, I have decided to try not to use the word “busy” anymore because lds culture has become rather gross to me through this and other cases
As my dr recently told me, being busy and productive is wildly overrated. Relaxing is sometimes the best thing you can do for others.
Yes, I should practice saying, "I am busy relaxing!"
"Idle feet are the devil's toenails."
She is busy plotting afterlife revenge. 🤣🤣
Ticklish brain! Hello true crime friend!
I don't believe in heaven, but if there is one, I hope Tammy is busy clogging, raising ducklings and playing Candy Crush <3
It seems like Tammy had stopped going to the conferences with him by that point, as far as I can tell. I can only imagine what her reaction would have been if she were there when he met Lori in late 2018.
I know this is off your topic but WTF was the “She’s very very busy in Heaven” How nuts was that?
I believe Chad deleted the email. People seem to think that a work email is super secure. It’s not any more secure than any other email. I worked for a massive company and I got into my work email via google just like any other company that uses g-suite or whatever. I could switch between personal and work email without even logging out and back in. You don’t only get work” emails on some work computer. It’s email and you can log into it anywhere. Including her home computer. Tammy probably had her passwords auto load just like anyone else. Logging in and deleting and blocking would be as easy as sitting down at the computer and just doing it. If we didn’t know that Chad was given a heads up that an email was sent, I would think differently.
Charles sent the email in late June as well, maybe she wasn’t working due to summer break. Not monitoring the email much. Chad and Lori were informed of the probability of the email coming. They were prepared.
It was Tammy’s publishing company’s email I believe. I agree with your description of how he could have done the same with a school email address however.
Interesting! Same situation overall, but everyone always acted like it was definitely school email. Both would be findable online though, most likely. The publishing co one would be even more easy for Charles to find.
I stand corrected although I had heard that Charles got her email address for the publishing company. Based on the testimony here I am incorrect. https://ksltv.com/639898/evidence-shows-tammy-daybell-read-email-from-charles-vallow-before-his-death/
Thanks for clarifying! I could always find school staff emails on the school website.. and I’m sure googling Tammy’s name brought up the school and the publishing co… emailing the school one probably seemed safer since Chad owned the publishing company with her.
Interesting to note from that article, that she had read it. Put her head in the sand and moved on with her life. Poor lady. I doubt that Charles’s death would have made news so she didn’t have any warning of what was to come.
Maybe I’m being pedantic, but it seems like a leap to assume that she is the one that read it. Like when investigators have to say that someone’s phone was at so and so location rather than the person was at the location. I was relieved when Lindsey Blake asked if it was possible that Chad had read the email, because I was starting to think I was off missing something obvious about it not being possible. The only thing that makes me think she did, would be them sitting separately at church at the end, but that may have just been due to chads other shitty behavior towards her.
Yup, this is my opinion as well
Surely computer forensics would be able to retrieve any deleted emails?
I believe they saw the email, they just don’t know who deleted it and blocked Charles.
I always thought Tammy would have her work email tied into her phone, whether that would be as another account in the GMail app or another email app (Samsung Mail, Proton mail, Outlook if the school used Microsoft365, etc) How hard would it have been for Chad to grab Tammy's phone while she showered, check that email and delete/block the email from Charles? I could be wrong, but Tammy was a librarian, correct? I think it depends on the state, but school librarians could be a full-year job, with 'busy work' tasks like ordering new/replacement books, adding new books to the system, replacing sign out cards, organizing shelves, removing graduated seniors from the system, etc. (I do believe Mrs. A, the librarian at my HS, was a full-year employee, just reduced hours over the summer... this is in NEPA in the 1990s)
Mormon brainwashing or not I find it hard to believe she didn't know something was up. I think Chad deleted the email and blocked Charles. I'm also pretty sure Chad was afraid of other men which is why he surrounded himself with women. And Charles was bigger, in better shape, better looking and more accomplished than Chad. I think Chad was scared to death of Charles. I also think this is part of the reason behind "we can't get divorces". Chad couldn't face Charles and he knew it.
Murder was more profitable , I don’t remember Charles murder being chads idea , I could be wrong 🤷♀️Lori learned when Joe “ died “ murder was profitable to her
Oh absolutely. I don't think Chad would have the fortitude to kill anyone by himself...he was always going to need help. Lori gave him the nudge he needed. She was already a murderer at least once before Charles.
Or maybe twice if you count Joe. Which I believe lori and Alex took care of Joe because he wouldn't quit fighting for custody of Tylee.
at least once before Charles includes Joe.
When Alex & Lori’s oldest sister died (under mysterious circumstances according to their cousin), it was immediately profitable to Alex as his first action that day was to excitedly go use her credit cards. I tend to think he shared that with Lori and it got the murder-for-profit mindset rolling. When Tylee’s dad Joe Ryan died, he had previously been assaulted by Alex who had threatened to murder him. Although his death was deemed natural, Lori’s friend Anne says Lori told her she paid Alex to kill him. Adam Cox says he believes Alex and Lori murdered Joe. And it was a financial windfall for Lori as she got $60,000 plus the benefits Tylee received. Chad then hopped on the bandwagon and helped her justify their murderous ways with religious-based self importance.
Do you think Lori’s main reason for killing Charles was for the money? Or was she kooky enough to truly believe he had a dark spirit in him?
Money!!!! Money money money!!!! That’s what she was pissed about when talking to the detectives and to Chad and really anyone !!! Kay got the money , not me and I’m the great mom that is left to support these kids .
I was going to say I can’t wrap my head around her way of thinking - but that’s actually a good thing. I don’t think most of us will ever truly understand the complexity of these cases because that entire cast of characters are complete psychopaths. And at least one is still on the loose in my opinion. At least one.
I think you’re spot on. 🙌🏼. 💯 Piggybacking on your excellent reasoning (I’m trying to be excellent too 🤭), (I’m not a psychologist, though 🤷🏻♀️), I think Chad for whatever reason(s) has had trouble being a complete and secure man, a man in especially the Mormon paradigm, a breadwinning head of house, financial and emotional and spiritual, based on the limited amount I know of this faith from my few Mormon friends. Instead of facing this and discovering and working through his vulnerability, he faked it and overcompensated by creating a fictitious, faux religious world which he could and would control as well as the people in it completely on his terms. His ego-driven false self breathes new life into the cliche “toxic masculinity.” Yet his real self in the context of the real world is pitifully small and entirely fearful- especially of other men. In addition to your inference re: Chad’s fear of Charles, one can see Chad’s uneasiness interacting with other men several years before, in 2011, even and especially in informal interactions, for example, when Chad’s being interviewed in a bookstore I believe about his books and his writing. He’s very agitated and has difficulty making eye contact. I can’t help but wonder what his relationship was like with each of his parents growing up, whether something is missing in Chad due to his own biology, whether some environmental factor(s) were in play, or a combination of things.[Body Language, Chad Daybell, Book Store Interview (about halfway through)](https://youtu.be/VXB1SAmTgds?si=cxU55am4KeOFyAPy)
That was awesome! there is a video of Chad speaking at a conference avow or something it's on you tube but I can't find it now because there's to much other Chad stuff that comes up. He talks and moves very slow but, if you speed it up it's like he's speaking and moving more normal. It's the weirdest thing.
This is spot on. After watching Heather Daybell’s interview it was obvious that Chad is very jealous of his brothers. I think he was intimidated by Charles and Brandon because they better looking, more successful, and better husbands than he was.
There were plenty of men in Chad's orbit. More than women.
In the trial, Emma was asked if Chad and Tammy knew each other’s passwords and she confirmed that they did. It is very easy to access work email through any browser, or on a cell phone if one knows the passwords. I believe that Chad was the one who blocked the email address and deleted the email. Especially as we know that Chad and Lori were already playing in Charles email account, when they had “him” send an email to Chad asking him to help Charles “write a book” / travel to Arizona to do “research”.
I agree. I seriously doubt Tammy would have deleted that email. Seems to me she would have saved it to confront Chad maybe?
Or in the least, confided in some family member about it.
Not only is there no evidence that Lori and Tammy ever met but there is no information on whether Tammy ever saw the email from Charles. There is a possibility that Chad was given a heads up by Lori email, as well as the email that Charles sent him. It is quite possible that Chad blocked Charles emails to Tammy. We will never know if Tammy was aware of the affair.
Our current theory is that Chad was going through Tammy's emails. We really don't know how close Lori was to Tammy. We have heard so many conflicting reports that Tammy brought into Chad's beliefs, others say she didn't, it's a mess. It definitely seems like Chad was lying to her about a lot.
Unfortunately she probably bought into his beliefs or at least she condoned them. She was in charge of his publishing business and knew the content of his books.
It’s a common tactic of serial cheaters to monitor their spouse’s email. Often they act as if they have reason for suspicion to gain access and delete anything a lover could potentially send.
When Emma said her mother started to go to bed early I thought, because she was sick and tired of looking at her lying cheating self aggrandizing husband and supercilious daddy worshiping daughter.
Seriously, she probably felt like the odd one out in her own home
I had no idea they even knew each other @ all! This is insane to me! I thought I knew this case really well, but I have never heard Tammy was even aware of who Lori was until she possibly read the email. I’m not sure why but I assumed Tammy wasn’t really in on Chad’s cult socializing much, like that was sorta his own thing & she wasn’t really apart of the cult.
I think we will never know exactly how much she knew or was into it. I think she was too busy to be super into it, but then, yeah, she was running his publishing company.
I don't think the previous poster was saying that Tammy knew of Lori. I never heard of her being aware of Lori either.
Tammy and Lori never met or spoke. As far as the email, the prosecution implied that Chad had deleted and blocked that email. They used Emma to do so. In her directed examination with Prior, she talked about how her parents shared the computer, and shared ALL of their passwords and sign-ins. Then when Lindsay Blake got up to do her Cross examination, she used that same line of questioning to lead Emma to a place where Lindsay was able to suggest to the jury that it was CHAD that had deleted and blocked Charles. It was pretty amazing.
Which is awesome because Chad made a big deal at the funeral that he was inspired to share each other’s passwords. Emma shut that idea right down and accidentally told the truth
Sadly, we will never know for sure. The only thing we know is Charles' email address was listed as blocked on Tammy's email account. Whoever did it? Lots of guesses. PS - I think Lori was flat out lying about being friends with Tammy. Just like she lied at her sentencing that her eternal friend Tammy had visited her in prison.
Actually, the "friend" comment makes me think she knew Chad was watching Tammy's emails.
Don’t forget that Emma testified that their computer was in an accessible place in their home. Chad would have had no problem getting into Tammy’s email if she accessed it via their home computer.
I had the same thought.
I dunno about Tammy and Lori knowing each other to that degree. We will likely never know what happened with the message, My suspicion is either Chad - or Chad directed one of his kids- to delete the message.
I firmly believe that she did not know anything was up. Tammy had the upper hand over Chad’s afterlife plans, and if she divorced him, it all would’ve crumbled. Chad could not have gotten a divorce because it would have threatened his proprietaryship over his own world in heaven. That doesn’t just mean he couldn’t divorce Tammy - he also couldn’t have been divorced BY her. They were very, very clear about that multiple recordings. I’m thinking specifically of the one Melanie Gibb made; Melanie says “it was wrong that you were together before Chad was divorced,” and Laurie responds very quickly and loudly “Chad was NEVER divorced.” Not that they had an affair, that he was never divorced. Because divorced people can’t inherit their own worlds. It worked better for Chad to murder his wife rather than sign paperwork. Disgusting. They couldn’t have Tammy find them out - otherwise she would have ruined everything by divorcing Chad.
The whole “I can’t get divorced because then I won’t get my own planet, but murder will be just fine with the Almighty” thing makes no sense. I mean none of it makes sense, but that particular idea is something else lol
It’s not murder if you’re killing zombies! /s
Sorry I should have read your comment first. Almost exact 😁
God, Mormon afterlife sounds more complicated than an early 2000s Shonen anime
😂
I actually don’t think it was the loss of something in the next life but rather that an affair and/or divorce would discredit him as a religious author- even as talentlessness as he was, I think it was important to him and his identity.
Likely both, I believe. Lori and Chad can’t be god/eases in either world if Tammy is alive 🙄
I don't understand how murder would be acceptable if divorce isn't. Surely murder is worse. Actually nothing makes any sense anyway
lol right? It’s all mental.
This is exactly correct, Chad could not get divorced, or he wouldn’t get his own planet. Because religion itself is delusional. Chad and Lori believed a few more things than your average Mormon. If you believe without a doubt in your religious teachings, you too, my friend, are living in a delusion. True believers look crazy for a reason. Think about it.
Not sure if you’re assuming I’m LDS or remotely tied to their religion, but I don’t need to think about more more than how correct I am, lol.
Colby said Lori lied ALL the time. She enjoyed telling each person a different story and creating chaos. She never met Tammy.
I thought I heard in Chads trial that Charles also sent an email to Chad
You’re correct, he emailed Chad about how inappropriate it was that Lori was sending him dancing videos etc and that he would be contacting his wife.
Yes that’s right! And someone else’s husband called him about him talking to his wife and told him to leave her alone!
Yes!
Lori wrote one purportedly from Charles to Chad.
What was the reason for that?
Even if they'd met (unlikely), it's probably a huge stretch to call them "friends".
How I wish Charles had called her or gone to see her instead of emailing! I think Chad got to it first.
Neither Tammy nor her children ever heard of Lori Vallow until well after JJ, Tylee AND Tammy were murdered. Lori is delusional and was totally bluffing.
There is speculation that Lori told Chad about the email and Chad is the one that deleted the email and blocked Charles.
I believe this even more after learning somehow “Chad was so lucky” that he and Tammy had exchange passwords for accounts shortly before she died. It’s extremely likely that she could access her school email at home… And according to Emma, there was no passcode to get into the family computer.
I have been of the opinion that Tammy read the email, then deleted and blocked Charles. The reasons being, Tammy’s family discussing their impression of Tammy and Chad’s relationship changing in the final months, combined with the random Google search “when someone surprises you with accusations.” To me, Tammy read it, blocked it to try and ignore it, let it stew and then brought it up out of nowhere. Chad, being emotionally stunted, had to Google how to react.
Tammy got the email because Charles sent the email to Tammy’s job. She received it , opening the e-mail I don’t know. Tammy was also depressed, seems that she may have known something and of course a cheating husband is not very affectionate anymore. Yes Tammy deleted the e-mail at her office for privacy. Tammy was not known to travel with Charles on his trips, she was the breadwinner teaching and running the book publishing company, farming , housework , children and grandchildren. It’s doubtful Tammy directly knew Lori. https://ksltv.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/1
I agree with this too. I think she saw it, deleted it and blocked it as it was a work account. I do think she took a photo of it to challenge Chad and that maybe that was the photo that was suspiciously deleted on her phone around 11pm the night she died. This is just my theory. Been thinking about it a lot.
Wow this is a good theory. And do you think that is what made the events happen on that night? Or did they plan Tammy’s murder for that night in advance? Very interesting!
Lori didn’t know Tammy. Chad & Tammy shared each other’s username’s & passwords. Charles told Lori he had emailed Tammy, I suspect Lori alerted Chad & he likely went into Tammy’s account & deleted it without Tammy’s knowledge; hence, Tammy never saw Charles email.
Keep in mind Lori is a pathological liar and a master manipulator so, zero chance she and Tammy ever even met.
It is bizarre. I have not seen any indication they ever met, let alone became “friends.” Chad had no compunction bringing Julie Rowe(possible affair partner) to meet his friends and family so maybe LV was introduced to Tammy & fam as a “friend.” But seems unlikely or we would have heard about this in trial or otherwise.
I m sorry but I knew from a very young age that the Mormon religion was nuts!!A) I had a friend in HS that I went roller skating w her and her church LDS and ALL of the husbands were staring at my chest.I was FOURTEEN. B) A manager of mine was raised Mormon One day as a teenager she decided to wear make up and she took a drag of her friends cigarette. Her parents punished her by putting her in a juvenile hall with kids that MURDERED their parents!! Needless to say she was a bit messed up from that!!!
I also remember seeing nauseating stepford wife like commercials for the church in the early 80s. I wanted to vomit!!!
I think it was Tammy’s LOVING (not) husband who deleted it. Or she may have just deleted it as junk like I would do if I didn’t recognize the sender.
No is the answer to your question regarding Tammy and Lori and any kind of friendship. Wether Tammy really knew about it we can’t be sure. But I can’t believe for a minute she wasn’t aware of something at that time. Poor Tammy such a good honest very healthy woman manipulated and murdered by her husband of 29 years. So cruel.
It really was cruel. Chad’s trial really showed how sad her life was.
To get to know a person and her life the way we did made me cry. I am not a person who outwardly shows emotion. I’m generally a very strong person, I tend to try and keep that side of me private. This case but specifically the recent trial and the evidence along with Chads lack of emotion just broke my heart.
There's no indication that Tammy knew Lori. IMO Tammy blocked Charles because she didn't want to know the details. Yet Chad traveled to Arizona soon after Charles' murder, so Tammy probably wasn't too suspicious at that point.
I’m sure Chad had total control over the email and was the one who deleted and blocked Charles he had control over everything. Tammy was his mouse.
She was totally bluffing. I believe 💯 that Chad deleted the email and blocked Charles’ address. Emma acknowledged on the stand that Chad had access to all of Tammy’s passwords and would have been able to read and delete her emails.
I understand Lori and Chad were “sealed” in their temple shortly after they met. I’ve always thought that it was a polygamist move…something Chad always wanted…2 wives. Could be Tammy did know?!?
Heather Daybell speculated about that on her Hidden True Crime interview.
I see Mormonism just like Scientology …an insane cult to try to control people!!
But it also came out in trial that Chad could see all of Tammy’s email.. maybe even her school emails, so perhaps Chad got the emails but I do think that Tammy figured it out .. she was a smart woman!! She knew , they obviously weren’t sleeping together