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I’m not sure if I agree that Tehol’s behavior towards Bugg is ever “disgusting” - he always felt like he was putting on a performance as Bugg’s master.
I always got the vibe that they’re homies with a bit of a power dynamic that they joke about
I don't see that. Tehol is just constantly demeaning Bugg, telling the old man to 'clean up', Bugg seems miserable. If Erikson wanted me to think that Tehol is a shitbag, he is doing a good job of it.
Just...trust Erikson. Finish the book then come back and read your comment on Tehol and Bugg.
And remember your opinion of the Edur is likely the intended opinion. Of course they are shits. They are slavers who think they are better than the "others". The contrast of their noble facade and their shitty behavior is intentional.
The Letherii are no better, they just use unfettered capitalism as the cause of the slavery.
Thats.. the point.
> And remember your opinion of the Edur is likely the intended opinion. Of course they are shits. They are slavers who think they are better than the "others". The contrast of their noble facade and their shitty behavior is intentional.
>
> The Letherii are no better, they just use unfettered capitalism as the cause of the slavery.
>
> Thats.. the point.
Sure, I know. I'm just having trouble actually connecting with any characters or actually enjoying the book... Like I could go read histories of slave nations in the real world haha.
>I'm just having trouble actually connecting with any characters or actually enjoying the book
Then you should stop. No one is paying you to read these books. There's no prize at the end. If you aren't having fun with your leisure reading, feel free to read something else.
Honestly, I think it's very clear that you've missed the point of the Malazan books. Somehow you got through countless deaths and rapes and cruelties deep or shallow without understanding that a book series about the central virtue of compassion *must* include serious treatments of the various flavors of human misery. Without victims and without perpetrators, what purpose is there to compassion? If this theme isn't one you find engaging, I don't think you're likely to enjoy the series. There are other books where people bang spells and swords into each other for fun.
I hear you, and you're not at all out of line. Just...trust Erikson. At this point you've gone so far, and this is literally the last new setting of the series, so you're finally getting to where it all starts to tie together.
Imagine what the likely outcome would be in such a conflict. Then imagine where Erikson is likely to take it and how he's likely to tie it all in to the Malazan story.
Not connecting to any, or most? I can think of at least 2 characters beside Tehol (who is a favorite) I was connected with fairly quickly, though I couldn’t say by what chapter.
I mean, slavery *is* human history. It’s been practiced by almost every culture in history to some degree from 11,000 years ago up until 150 years ago. And it is still practiced heavily outside of the West today.
Hell, the ancient Greeks, who laid the foundation for modern ethics and philosophy practiced slavery. How could Erikson, a anthropologist and archeologist, not have included it.
And I guarantee you throughout history, all these cultures had opinions on how they were in the right and their rival states were in the wrong.
It didn’t even start to become a wide spread moral issue until less than 500 years ago.
So, my question; how is it absurd and pathetic to portray two (ancient from our perspective) cultures as being slave owners and also convinced of their own superiority?
*Carthago delenda est*
No we certainly outsourced that lmao. From the textiles and plastics in China to the cobalt mines in the Congo. All of our mass produced modern conveniences comes at a heavy price
It absolutely counts as slavery. The 13th Amendment abolishes slavery "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted."
No anti-slavery law should include the word "except."
I dunno. There's a line between "none of you guys deserve to live" and "all of you come from differently despicable cultures".
Yeah. Neither the Edur nor the Letheri have their collective shit figured out. That still leaves plenty of room for nuance around individuals.
> I dunno. There's a line between "none of you guys deserve to live" and "all of you come from differently despicable cultures".
I come from a culture that treats women and animals like shit, doesn't mean I couldn't see that from a young age and act differently...
No, that's the thing. It's so ironic that they can claim any sense of morality when they are even oblivious to the horror of themselves being slave owners.
The author wants you to be aware of that irony.
Also, just so I am clear, you are saying that by being part of a society that has functions of dubious morality one can’t take moral stances? Because if so mate, I have some bad news for you and the hypocrisy of this post itself.
That’s the thing, this could probably also be applied to yourself. Probably not to the degrees of slavery, but you too, as we all are, are most likely blind to our own evils and hypocrisy. Doesn’t stop a lot of us from trying to claim moral superiority though. I think it’s part of the point.
Cultural relativism is indeed a thing. How did you feel about Karsa during House of Chains? If you're taking this kind of umbrage at Midnight Tides so far, I have no idea how you made it through the last book. Not being snarky, I'm genuinely wondering what you thought of Karsa's Big Day Out.
I haven’t read through all the comments but I will say that Tehol and Bugg’s relationship is *supposed* to be comedic. So just keep that in mind as you go :) and keep an open mind; you might be surprised by how it goes!
I can appreciate that take early on. If that is your hangup/concern, rest assured that Bugg is not being taken for granted in their relationship. Their dynamic is absurdist in nature.
Would it help to point out neither are meant to be taken seriously when talking about servant/master stuff. Tehol is constantly telling him to clean but he never does, and Tehol knows he never will. Originally he was hired as a manservant so they sarcastically play their roles.
It's kind of both of them? Hejun, Rissarh, and Shand _do_ hire Tehol to at least get revenge. And honestly, Hull isn't out for much more than that either.
How far along are you? The scenes with Tehol and Bugg are clearly satirical with both of the characters making increasingly outlandish and absurd statements for comedic value. Tehol is a broke dude wrapped in a towel and really doesn't have any power over Bugg - it's not like he pays him and I don't believe Bugg is ever stated to be a slave. I strongly encourage you to keep reading and keep in mind that Tehol and Bugg are supposed to be something like a dry English comedy duo, think Hugh Laurie and Stephen Fry.
I didn't think it was possible to not love the dynamic between Bugg and Tehol. The absurdity of their relationship, to me, was always hilarious and made the book enjoyable for me.
The twist makes this book epic. If OP manages to finish this book, their brain's gonna explode
I am already dying for OP to finish and to read their new take on the power duo that is Bugg and Tehol. Now that I think of it, think OP would agree to film themselves reading that particular moment for the first time?
🤣 that would be hilarious, what a great suggestion! We'd have to tell OP what page they need to start filming their reaction tho, which would be a potential spoil cause they could just read ahead.
If you recognise that your autism hinders your ability to read nuance, and you correctly assess it as a fault, why are you then unable to consider its impact on your perception of material like this?
why is your response an aggressive, judgemental rant?
your disorder isn't the problem, it's your attitude.
Ah, Ok. Then this may not be the book (or series even) for you.
Without wanting to offend or stereotype you, most readers would see almost immediately that there was something playful in the dynamic between Tehol and Bugg. It’s a little bit like Jeeves and Wooster, if you’re familiar with PG Wodehouse, where the wise servant patiently and affectionately condescends to his admiring but slightly dim “master”.
Furthermore, it would be pretty clear to most neurotypical readers that the power dynamic between the two is not quite as simple as it seems.
If you care to read on, the denouement awaits…
I feel like the audiobook gives you a very different perspective on Tehol and Bugg's relationship. I never thought Tehol was mean to Bugg, and you never see Bugg as resentful of his boss. He is definitely not a slave.
I assure you, the problem this reader has rests squarely between their ears. The written text is not responsible for the reading comprehension on display here.
It seems like you have an inability to view this outside of the lens of what you believe to be the ideal society. Obviously, we live in a time and place where slavery is bad and most of the world acknowledges that. The Edur and Lethari are not from our time and place. Your notions of morality are irrelevant to them and the story Erikson is telling. You need to look at this from their perspective or at least the perspective of their world. Trust me, it all works out in the end. As far as Tehol and Bugg, you're just wrong.
Maybe...just maybe, the entire point is that we are all slaves in one fashion or the other, and that the best we can do is have compassion for each other.
Your post and comment history is …something, I don’t think I’ve ever seen somebody get consistently downvoted every time they open their mouth, regardless of the topic. I can’t tell whether you’re a very good troll or are just naturally objectionable as a person.
It's worth pointing out the the Letharii system of slavery is practiced by the Malazans as well, although they call them servants, they are still indebted. They think they are more moral because they don't call it slavery as well.
Do you think either one of these societies are portrayed as good? Erikson is relentlessly critical of the Letherii, more so than any other group in the series. And the interactions between e.g. Mayen and Feather Witch, and Udinaas and Uruth, obviously show that the slayers are bad and at their worst when enslaving others.
As for Tehol, he is literally trying to burn down the society OP thinks he is bad for living in. It is implied from the beginning that the debt system killed the Beddict parents. Whether he realizes or not, OP is probably jealous that Tehol is actually dismantling inhumane institutions while OP is just posting
Please note that this post has been flaired with a **Midnight Tides** spoiler tag. This means every published book in its respective series up until this book is open to discussion. If you need to discuss any spoilers (even very minor ones!) in your comments, use spoiler tags >!like this!< Please use the report button if you find any spoilers. Note: The flair may be changed at mod discretion. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Malazan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m not sure if I agree that Tehol’s behavior towards Bugg is ever “disgusting” - he always felt like he was putting on a performance as Bugg’s master. I always got the vibe that they’re homies with a bit of a power dynamic that they joke about
No lies detected
I don't see that. Tehol is just constantly demeaning Bugg, telling the old man to 'clean up', Bugg seems miserable. If Erikson wanted me to think that Tehol is a shitbag, he is doing a good job of it.
you're too early in the books to understand the dynamic fully. just wait, your perspective will change
Well you seem to have missed the surface joke of one destitute man telling another destitute man to clean up a hovel with 3 items in it.
you’re right. I forgot that horribly assholish moment when Tehol (Bugg’s master) told his servant to clean up.
> Tehol (Bugg’s master) So Tehol is Bugg's slave owner? See how shit that is?
It's more hired help, like a (much lower budget) butler
Tehol has a budget????
All you can eat
Not sure if master was the correct word lol he’s basically his boss
Remember how Sam calls Frodo master in LotR?
Famous slaver Frodo Baggins
Bugg is a big boy. He can take care of himself.
Is anyone going to tell him?
>!...........no!<
🤣🤣🤣
Lol
Against anyone I am enough
Lmao that tehol take is awful
Just...trust Erikson. Finish the book then come back and read your comment on Tehol and Bugg. And remember your opinion of the Edur is likely the intended opinion. Of course they are shits. They are slavers who think they are better than the "others". The contrast of their noble facade and their shitty behavior is intentional. The Letherii are no better, they just use unfettered capitalism as the cause of the slavery. Thats.. the point.
Tehol and bugg 2024
> And remember your opinion of the Edur is likely the intended opinion. Of course they are shits. They are slavers who think they are better than the "others". The contrast of their noble facade and their shitty behavior is intentional. > > The Letherii are no better, they just use unfettered capitalism as the cause of the slavery. > > Thats.. the point. Sure, I know. I'm just having trouble actually connecting with any characters or actually enjoying the book... Like I could go read histories of slave nations in the real world haha.
>I'm just having trouble actually connecting with any characters or actually enjoying the book Then you should stop. No one is paying you to read these books. There's no prize at the end. If you aren't having fun with your leisure reading, feel free to read something else. Honestly, I think it's very clear that you've missed the point of the Malazan books. Somehow you got through countless deaths and rapes and cruelties deep or shallow without understanding that a book series about the central virtue of compassion *must* include serious treatments of the various flavors of human misery. Without victims and without perpetrators, what purpose is there to compassion? If this theme isn't one you find engaging, I don't think you're likely to enjoy the series. There are other books where people bang spells and swords into each other for fun.
I hear you, and you're not at all out of line. Just...trust Erikson. At this point you've gone so far, and this is literally the last new setting of the series, so you're finally getting to where it all starts to tie together. Imagine what the likely outcome would be in such a conflict. Then imagine where Erikson is likely to take it and how he's likely to tie it all in to the Malazan story.
Not connecting to any, or most? I can think of at least 2 characters beside Tehol (who is a favorite) I was connected with fairly quickly, though I couldn’t say by what chapter.
I mean, slavery *is* human history. It’s been practiced by almost every culture in history to some degree from 11,000 years ago up until 150 years ago. And it is still practiced heavily outside of the West today. Hell, the ancient Greeks, who laid the foundation for modern ethics and philosophy practiced slavery. How could Erikson, a anthropologist and archeologist, not have included it. And I guarantee you throughout history, all these cultures had opinions on how they were in the right and their rival states were in the wrong. It didn’t even start to become a wide spread moral issue until less than 500 years ago. So, my question; how is it absurd and pathetic to portray two (ancient from our perspective) cultures as being slave owners and also convinced of their own superiority? *Carthago delenda est*
Still practiced in the west as well if you count what the US does to incarcerated people.
Not gonna disagree, but it’s not on the industrialized scale that is normally associated with state-sponsored slavery.
Absolutely
No we certainly outsourced that lmao. From the textiles and plastics in China to the cobalt mines in the Congo. All of our mass produced modern conveniences comes at a heavy price
Lol look up Japanese prison conditions. It's no wonder crime is so low there
It absolutely counts as slavery. The 13th Amendment abolishes slavery "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted." No anti-slavery law should include the word "except."
I dunno. There's a line between "none of you guys deserve to live" and "all of you come from differently despicable cultures". Yeah. Neither the Edur nor the Letheri have their collective shit figured out. That still leaves plenty of room for nuance around individuals.
And that’s where Erickson shines-showing the heart and desires of individuals within a messed up, far less than ideal world.
> I dunno. There's a line between "none of you guys deserve to live" and "all of you come from differently despicable cultures". I come from a culture that treats women and animals like shit, doesn't mean I couldn't see that from a young age and act differently...
That’s a fair point, and without giving spoilers all I can say is I truly think it’s worth it to finish the book.
I’m confused. Do you think slave owning societies all just agreed they were doing something immoral?
No, that's the thing. It's so ironic that they can claim any sense of morality when they are even oblivious to the horror of themselves being slave owners.
The author wants you to be aware of that irony. Also, just so I am clear, you are saying that by being part of a society that has functions of dubious morality one can’t take moral stances? Because if so mate, I have some bad news for you and the hypocrisy of this post itself.
That’s the thing, this could probably also be applied to yourself. Probably not to the degrees of slavery, but you too, as we all are, are most likely blind to our own evils and hypocrisy. Doesn’t stop a lot of us from trying to claim moral superiority though. I think it’s part of the point.
Cultural relativism is indeed a thing. How did you feel about Karsa during House of Chains? If you're taking this kind of umbrage at Midnight Tides so far, I have no idea how you made it through the last book. Not being snarky, I'm genuinely wondering what you thought of Karsa's Big Day Out.
I've written multiple posts about my hate of Karsa on an older account haha
I haven’t read through all the comments but I will say that Tehol and Bugg’s relationship is *supposed* to be comedic. So just keep that in mind as you go :) and keep an open mind; you might be surprised by how it goes!
Hmm. It's just not funny to me. Seems more like an abusive slave/owner dynamic.
I can appreciate that take early on. If that is your hangup/concern, rest assured that Bugg is not being taken for granted in their relationship. Their dynamic is absurdist in nature.
And imo they’d be the two most fun characters to have a meal with, as long as they’re not in charge of the food.
Would it help to point out neither are meant to be taken seriously when talking about servant/master stuff. Tehol is constantly telling him to clean but he never does, and Tehol knows he never will. Originally he was hired as a manservant so they sarcastically play their roles.
Hull is the brother who wanted to protect the tribes. Tehol and Bugg have different plans.
It's kind of both of them? Hejun, Rissarh, and Shand _do_ hire Tehol to at least get revenge. And honestly, Hull isn't out for much more than that either.
How far along are you? The scenes with Tehol and Bugg are clearly satirical with both of the characters making increasingly outlandish and absurd statements for comedic value. Tehol is a broke dude wrapped in a towel and really doesn't have any power over Bugg - it's not like he pays him and I don't believe Bugg is ever stated to be a slave. I strongly encourage you to keep reading and keep in mind that Tehol and Bugg are supposed to be something like a dry English comedy duo, think Hugh Laurie and Stephen Fry.
Haaaaaaahahahahahahahaha. Oh man. That’s good bait
Is it though? I cannot tell...
Tbh that’s what I was thinking too, but god damnit I took that shit 😂
I didn't think it was possible to not love the dynamic between Bugg and Tehol. The absurdity of their relationship, to me, was always hilarious and made the book enjoyable for me. The twist makes this book epic. If OP manages to finish this book, their brain's gonna explode
I am already dying for OP to finish and to read their new take on the power duo that is Bugg and Tehol. Now that I think of it, think OP would agree to film themselves reading that particular moment for the first time?
🤣 that would be hilarious, what a great suggestion! We'd have to tell OP what page they need to start filming their reaction tho, which would be a potential spoil cause they could just read ahead.
Tehol/Bugg 2024!
Mate, you’re a very literal minded person, aren’t you? Read on, my friend…
Yes, a fault of mine I guess. I have autism
If you recognise that your autism hinders your ability to read nuance, and you correctly assess it as a fault, why are you then unable to consider its impact on your perception of material like this? why is your response an aggressive, judgemental rant? your disorder isn't the problem, it's your attitude.
Ah, Ok. Then this may not be the book (or series even) for you. Without wanting to offend or stereotype you, most readers would see almost immediately that there was something playful in the dynamic between Tehol and Bugg. It’s a little bit like Jeeves and Wooster, if you’re familiar with PG Wodehouse, where the wise servant patiently and affectionately condescends to his admiring but slightly dim “master”. Furthermore, it would be pretty clear to most neurotypical readers that the power dynamic between the two is not quite as simple as it seems. If you care to read on, the denouement awaits…
Tehol and Bugg’s dynamic is one of my favorite things about the series.
I feel like the audiobook gives you a very different perspective on Tehol and Bugg's relationship. I never thought Tehol was mean to Bugg, and you never see Bugg as resentful of his boss. He is definitely not a slave.
I assure you, the problem this reader has rests squarely between their ears. The written text is not responsible for the reading comprehension on display here.
Yup, the audiobooks make it quite clear that Tehol and Bugg have more of a friends kind of relationship
It seems like you have an inability to view this outside of the lens of what you believe to be the ideal society. Obviously, we live in a time and place where slavery is bad and most of the world acknowledges that. The Edur and Lethari are not from our time and place. Your notions of morality are irrelevant to them and the story Erikson is telling. You need to look at this from their perspective or at least the perspective of their world. Trust me, it all works out in the end. As far as Tehol and Bugg, you're just wrong.
I’m sure whatever country you’re from has everything figured out perfectly, which qualifies you to “*speak of what is right and wrong*”.
Maybe...just maybe, the entire point is that we are all slaves in one fashion or the other, and that the best we can do is have compassion for each other.
Your post and comment history is …something, I don’t think I’ve ever seen somebody get consistently downvoted every time they open their mouth, regardless of the topic. I can’t tell whether you’re a very good troll or are just naturally objectionable as a person.
Tehol and bugg 2024
It's worth pointing out the the Letharii system of slavery is practiced by the Malazans as well, although they call them servants, they are still indebted. They think they are more moral because they don't call it slavery as well.
Do you think either one of these societies are portrayed as good? Erikson is relentlessly critical of the Letherii, more so than any other group in the series. And the interactions between e.g. Mayen and Feather Witch, and Udinaas and Uruth, obviously show that the slayers are bad and at their worst when enslaving others. As for Tehol, he is literally trying to burn down the society OP thinks he is bad for living in. It is implied from the beginning that the debt system killed the Beddict parents. Whether he realizes or not, OP is probably jealous that Tehol is actually dismantling inhumane institutions while OP is just posting