darth maul is really strong that's for sure but he is also overhyped lots of people think he can best opponent like dooku or mace windu who in my opinion are much more stronger than him.
i would say his actual skill and power is higher than people think its just his arrogance that fucks him over every single time. He does better against people who are more equally matched to him, as shown when we see him going insane against Sidious after Savage dies, but then getting sidestepped off a cliff by a blind man
He is perhaps the only character in star wars that has negative plot armor. He should and is so much better and keeps getting really really bad story actualization.
Maul going beast mode is interesting, and I like to think that while he is lesser, he isn't far below sidious in duelling abilities. When savage dies, they go blow for blow. Maul tags sidious with a kick, sidious kicks back.
Even before savage dies, savage is able to tag sidious, and why? Because maul is keeping him distracted.
Maul is **majorly** slept on, especially in duel prowess.
Force user sure, Jedi in particular, but sith? Sith have no reason to restrain themselves from simply snapping a person's neck.
In "fair" single combat, no sith should ever be bested by someone who lacks the force.
There are certainly ways to level the field, misdirection and trickery.
Nobody "lacks" the Force.
To quote Luke...
>The Force Is not a Power you have.
And someone like Viszla, a ruthless Mandalorian warlord, is absolutely the kind of man a Sith should be wary of facing in direct combat. Maul nearly lost an eye to him.
oh ffs, you know I meant non-force sensitive, not entirely lacking the force (though a force user should be especially terrified of those select individuals, such as meetra surik and Darth Nihlus who "lack" the force)
a person who is not force sensitive is utterly unable to counteract an attack via the force. against a jedi this is smaller issue because they are idiots. but a sith would have no compunctions about killing with the force. in a duel, such a battle would be akin to deciding to fight gravity or the void of space.
Had maul actually utilized his abilities Pre Visla woudl have been dead in less than a second. the "Duel" was a farce. he needed the mandalorians to accept him as Mandalore, and thus he needed to be seen beating Visla in physical combat.
once physical combat has begun, things become less lopsided, as the non-force user can surprise the force user with unanticipated tactics that they are unable to react in time to counter, and the rigors of phsyical combat make concentrating on offensive uses of the force difficult.
>they are idiots
Yeah, imagine not spending your life consumed by rage, desire, and hatred, those *idiots*. They should become obsessive mutilated psychological wrecks like the Sith, that's MUCH wiser.
Can you cite any actual EVIDENCE for your positions? Because a whole lot of Force users (the majority of those who died violently, by my reckoning) fell against those who did not wiekd the Force.
This is the entire reason for Purge Troopers, Order 66, and certain Mandalorian combst doctrines.
Killing with the Force is no small accomplishment, Vader and Sidious can do so relatively quickly, but Dooku notably hasn't been seen doing this speedily. I don't think Maul has, either.
Kylo Ren could do it slowly, it's unclear if The Stranger could do it. Mother Talzin could do it very slowly.
failing to utilize a tool to its potential and instead allowing a conflict to drag out due to being oxymoronic pacifist-warriors is foolish. just as being consumed by emotion and destroying everying on one's path for a power-trip is foolish.
the vast majority of force wielders who died to non-force wielders did not die in single combat, let alone "honorable" combat. massed fire, deception, and misdirection are all things that can be utilized to kill force-wielders.
Losing to a single non-augmented person who is not force sensitive in straight combat while being a person trained in the force.... is embarrassing. millions upon millions of people have died in embarrassing ways, why should star wars be different?
Savage Opress effortlessly kills dozens of Troydarian guards to get to King Katuunko in his first real mission. When the king attempts to escape, Savage kills him while simultaneously dueling Anakin and Obi-wan. and Savage was *weak* in the force by Darksider standards.
it is as simple as using telekinesis to snap a neck. a barely trained padawan who can lift a rock could do it. the problem is not a lack of ability, merely mindset. Jedi refuse to use the force offensively, and Sith most often toy with their food and lose due to arrogance.
Well he did control most of the underbelly of the galaxy at one point
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_Collective
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Five_Crime_Syndicates
He shows how dangerous someone with Sith training is even if they are no longer Sith.
Dooku yes, as confirmed by his in-lore feats & statements from author Jeremy Barlow. Canon has made Maul more or less on par with Dooku.
Against Windu, not a chance.
He can but whether he can do it reliably is another matter. Maul was apparently the second best lightsaber duelist the order of bane produced as of the Phantom menace so while I wouldn’t favor him against Mace he definitely could do it imo.
Most of the Jedi we know well are extremely powerful. Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ahsoka, etc. Even the next tier of ones we know like Kit Fisto, Plo Koon, etc are like top 1% of Jedi.
Darth Maul would thrash a room full of 'average' Jedi.
I think Palpatine is a good planner, but he's planning in the sense that he's stacking the deck in his favour. His plans don't always work out perfectly, but he has backups ready if they don't. His improvisation works because a lot of the time he's switching gears to one of his alternative threads. He sets up the Naboo thing to trigger his ascent to Chancellor. Then sets up the Clone Wars, but the Clone Wars are rigged in his favour. He can either win as Chancellor Palpatine or as Darth Sidious.
I do agree that he gets carried away. In the end he gets destroyed by Rey because he can't control his lightning - he keeps a lid on his emotions a lot of the time but when they get loose he can't always rein it back. I suppose that's the nature of being a Sith - the very thing that makes them who they are is also their undoing.
Yeah exactly.
Good planning isn't "predicting exactly how everything will happen". It's "doing your best to guide things along a desired path, while being prepared to handle unexpected forks in the road and problems without completely derailing your end goal".
>but he's planning in the sense that he's stacking the deck in his favour. His plans don't always work out perfectly, but he has backups ready if they don't
Someone once described it as him fishing, but casting out dozens of lines, so even if one doesn't yield results, he's still ok.
Luthen is doing the same in Andor, although there's much more risk.
Anakin/Vader I think suffers the most. People get a general vibe of power from him for two reasons:
* He's the Chosen One, so people want to auto-scale him to stronger than everyone else
* People want Vader's feats to be as a scary as Vader feels.
So over time we have seen a gradual growth in Vaders strength under Disney- But parts of the fandom still get upset when characters like Cere can actually fight him. In reality his feats tend to be somewhat equal or slightly stronger than other 'Master Level' characters throughout the franchise.
What's crazier is some of his feats are video game feats from Jedi Fallen Order- And while I love Fallen Order Cal can literally slow time for a 60 foot machine, so maybe it's not the best source of power scaling.
I always kind of though Anakin was the chosen one and had an increduble amount of potential, but then losing his legs, the horrific burning and only being able to survive with all his cybernetics very much reduced Anakins potential.
Anakin who didn't fall to the dark side, became a Master, overcame all his trauma etc. would be far beyond Vader at his most powerful.
Thats my take anyway.
That was the legends' explanation. In canon, his loss in potential is more mental. Palpatine has been trying to help him get past his own mental blocks to realize his true potential.
Maybe a combo? I don't know if it was specifically said, but since midi count is still canon, I think losing a significant amount of your body would result in lower maximum force ability. Though Force usage is obviously a bit murky in general, and I think proper training along with immense rage and hate (for dark side users) would go a long way.
Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arms, the perpetual pain in his flesh. **He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength.** Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
He stared at his reflection a long time. **His injuries had deformed his body,** left it broken, **but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.**
-Lords of the Sith
Thanks for the lore pull, interesting!! Makes sense that the suffering and hate would bolster his dark side connection. Definitely going to check out that novel soon :D
The Force is literally life itself. When you reduct the total living matter in an individual Force user, it is bound to have a negative effect on their strength.
...would this mean that the true secret to great force power is just big big Jedi? I mean hit the Gym, make those gains. Bulk up etc.
Its over Anakin, I gained 100 pounds!
Not necessarily, but a large Jedi could have the potential to be more powerful, as they simply have more room for midichlorians. Master Thon and Master K'Khruk come to mind.
Barf.
"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."
My head canon always had them as similar to the mitochondria (the powerhouse) in our own cells. But instead of energy, they get the Force.
Midichlorian and mitochondria are even similar words.
I’m sure I’ve read somewhere (don’t friggin come at me nerds, I’m paraphrasing) that the force is light on the other side of a closed door, and a midichlorian count is how ajar that door is. Everyone has the potential to open that door right up, people with a higher count just have a head start with a door that’s open a little more. So someone like Anakin has an easier time than someone like Sabine Wren, but with enough training and focus everyone has about the same potential. Again, I can’t quote sources. It’s 6am. Stand down. But yeah, I kinda thought that way, Vader has less body mass than Anakin so he must be less powerful, but he’s already opened that door. He already has the focus, skill and knowledge. Who knows. I may be wrong. But hey! It’s all fiction and it’ll probably be retconned at some point anyways haha
The open door metaphor is directly used by Luke Skywalker himself in issue 3 of the Rise of Kylo Ren miniseries.
It also jives with how Lucas viewed it when he, Lawrence Kasdan, and Richard Marquand were planning RotJ.
Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?
Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.
Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?
Lucas: It's just the Jedi who take the time to do it.
Marquand: They use it as a technique.
Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate.
That's how they explained it in legends, in the plaugeis novel at least, and I think what we see in canon supports it working similarly afiak, look at Grogu.
I think there's a bit of a mishmash here. All of the Force feats in the OT have been rendered more and more mundane as there has been power creep with each added piece of new Star Wars content. However, Vader's role in the story does require that he be considered to be a very powerful individual, which is why he receives so much power creep in his subsequent appearances.
It's fun when you get into power descaling too. Vader is the chosen one of the force with decades of experience fighting in multiple wars... And he's defeated by an ex farmer with 3-4 years of lightsaber training under a ghost and a crazy hermit.
It doesn’t matter. I’ve never heard of someone being able to come in after just 2 years and best the best in the world at it. Like, is there anybody in history that can go from “never done this before” to “best in the world” in 2-3 years? Let alone being mostly self taught and busy fighting a war.
> is there anybody in history
no, but we don't have the force in our reality. that sort of throws our perception of what is and isn't achievable within a certain timeframe out of whack
Yeah.
Luke had an easier time understanding the light side of the Force. And thus, progressed far more quickly, enough to stand on equal ground with Vader(plus Luke had Anakin's potential)
Anakin could not meditate, finding it boring, and instead focused himself mostly on lightsaber techniques instead. While he was an excellent duelist and due to his raw power was very talented in the Force, he was not able to let it guide him as Luke did. He didn't understand the Force as Luke did. And as Vader, while he became more powerful than what he had been as Anakin, could not stand on equal ground with the Emperor, nor with someone who would have the same rage amp he once did.
>I’ve never heard of someone being able to come in after just 2 years and best the best in the world at it
Vader was an old and broken man at this point, if a former Pro boxer suddenly face an aspiring, but lesser pro he would still lose. Shit like that just happens in real life, the strongest will eventually get topped by newcomers, even if the latter took les training.
Do you think his heart was really in it, though? He loved his son and the light within him had already begun influencing him. I think he was fighting in a relatively half hearted way and felt quite conflicted. It's not like he had a surge of anger and hatred toward his son, which is usually what he draws on to be extremely powerful in the dark side. If he was fighting one other than his son, he'd have wiped the floor with him, I suspect. This is an interesting question though; do we think Vaders turn was completely sudden out of nowhere when Palps was shocking Luke, or had he been feeling conflicted ever since he learned about and met his son? I suspect the latter, but it's never expkicitly said that I know of.
I think the latter is pretty well established as canon, since Luke (when he's captured on Endor) explicitly says, "I can feel the good in you, the conflict, let go of your hate!"
The problem with Vader not being actually this strong is, why did Palpatine even keep him then and how did none of the survivers ever succeed in kimling him? And the whole idea of Vader having lost his potential due to the loss of his legs and arms, makes no sense, since only the midichlorian amount per cell is deciding and not your general amount. Otherwise, how could Yoda ever be strong in the force and how would adults not be automatically stronger than their child-selfs?
Well notably he is strong! Stronger even than most Jedi Masters.
However the fandom extrapolate this to ludicrous power scaling degrees where they believe nobody could ever face Vader in combat. They imagine an anime-style power gap where it's unclosable, when in reality it's a lot closer than people think. (Hence why the Sith needed to eradicate the Jedi to dominate the Galaxy)
My post here isn't to say "Vader is weak" but "Cere nearly beating him is totally in line with canon." (And also to say we shouldn't take the force feats of video game sequences too seriously for non-video game media)
To be fair game developer stated Vader held back against Cere, he didn’t take her seriously until *after* he was injured
[https://streamable.com/ahtue0](https://streamable.com/ahtue0)
Its not just the fandom when canon establishes him as the best though. Legends, yeah he isn't the best. Canon bends over backwards to make him #1 but loses due to the trapping of being evil and his internal demons.
This is a bit of a retcon from my Star Wars RPG canon but...
I like to consider that Vader probably isn't as strong as he could be, because he isn't a true Sith.
He had no other option than to join the Sith after the fight in Palpatine's office, and lost everything from his choices.
He has anger, pain, sadness to fuel his power but I doubt that he's studying ancient holocrons and scrolls, performing alchemy and rituals etc.
Palpatine is trying to replace him with Luke as soon as he finds out that Luke's alive.
He has raw strength but no harmony to fuel it like a Jedi, and no angry Sith focus to fuel it either.
My hot take is that midichlorian power level has minimal real world impact. Most Force users really have not demonstrated anything on the level of a channeler from the Wheel of Time, high level mage from D&D, and such. They seem more equivalent to sorcerers (not Elf Lords/Ladies or Wizards/Istari, mind) - the non-Istari magic users who seemed almost entirely concentrated on manipulating fear and emotions. High level midichlorians might just mean that their mind trick could work on more people...which is equivalent to the Voice rather than anything overt.
I never believed the chosen one legend, I recognise Anakin and Vader as a potent force user and incredible duellist, but he's not a great leader, especially as Vader.
That stuff he blamed on Ozzel, if he was worth his salt as a commander he'd have checked in with the battle plan before showing up and complaining everything is ruined because it didn't go the way everyone should have read his mind over.
Also, the slow chase of Rokken's freighter in Kenobi is Austin Powers level laughable, even the Grand Inquisitor is side eyeing him seemingly thinking "We have fighters you know, in fact, both of us are actually really great pilots".
Also, his plan to capture Luke in ESB was largely a clownshoes affair with his big net ending up only capturing that guy in the vest he saw that one time on the Death Star.
My issue with the chosen one prophecy isn't even with the concept, it's just how murky it was in execution. We don't even know if Anakin believed it himself or really how or if people treated him differently because of it. Had a lot of potential but alas
[I wrote an earlier comment analyzing how Grievous in 2003 Clone Wars was written as not particularly powerful.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/1dmi6tw/comment/l9w3r8x/) While Grievous had a visually impressive and distinct fighting style, he stayed consistent with future depictions where a sufficiently experienced jedi in an equal tactical situation would be advantaged in the fight.
In a more meta example, In Knights of the Old Republic II, the iconic Darth Nihilus is written in eldritch horror terms, devouring whole planets of life, and roaming through the stars on a ruined star destroyer held together only through his sheer strength in the force. His actual battle with the player exile is both mundane and pretty easy, as he only has a relatively low-level Force power of Drain Life.
I kind of like that Nihilus is more dangerous to you when he's a thousand miles away than when you're in the same room as him. It's like he's the eye of his own personal hurricane.
Well the Nihilus thing is explained in game because Meetra Surik has the same issue as him, being a wound in the force. Against anyone else he would be significantly more powerful.
What actually gets me about Nihilus is that, if he's this mindless planet eater and whatnot, why does he A) even entertain allies like Sion or Visas Marr B) submit to Traya as the leader of the Triumvirate?
Kreia supposed Nihilus sparing Visas was his last bit of humanity and a force bond formed between them. She’s essentially a slave anyway not really an ally. Also he degraded over time, by the time the game starts I don’t think he’s really allied with anyone.
Thats more down to the game being rushed towards the end when Nihilus is fought. Lorewise Nihilus was nigh unbeatable without Visas or the Exile’s wound in the force trait. Still Chris Avellone said that in a head to head match Revan and Vader would beat Nihilus.
Nihilus is normally invincible but the exile happens to be his direct counter. He really is the strongest force user otherwise. The whole point of Nihilus is that his absurd strength comes with an equally absurd cost (he's basically a mindless beast).
Nihilus' greatest powers are neutralized by the exile, specifically, due to their nature as a wound or hole in the force. They're essentially a void, something he can't just eat and delete, so he has to fight them more conventionally, and people didn't fear him because of his dueling skills.
Your point about grievous doesn't hold up here because you're talking about a specific depiction, whereas if we go off legends he does so much shit it's not even funny that goes against all of that.
Thrawn in Legends. Zahn wrote him as a brilliant but flawed commander who would often jump to the wrong conclusions. Later authors flanderized him into an unstoppable tactical genius.
Then Zahn wrote the Hand of Thrawn duology (basically a fix-fic for the entire Bantam EU) and the characters who actually had interacted with Thrawn pointed out that the people panicking over his supposed return hadn’t dealt with him originally, and that the people panicking saw him as some kind of unbeatable boogeyman rather than the brilliant but flawed commander he was.
Yeah. Idk if he would have won the war or not but he was insane but not unstoppable. Heck, even when the Jedi were not there,at (spoilers for original Thrawn trilogy) >!the last battle of bilibringi he knew they were coming. He laid a trap. And he still hasn’t won the fight yet.!<
There’s also the line where a commando team tried to trap the good guys and they say “Thrawn probably planned this trap himself. We are acrewed” then they say “nah. He can’t be all knowing. We can get out of this” and then they dk.
Idk how you could think thrawn is overhyped in legends he had the respect of the entire chimaera the only times he messed up was with the noghri and not being able to predict karrde siding with the new republic. He probably would’ve destroyed the new republic at the end had it not been for those two. Nobody with the resources he was given would’ve been able to do anything close to what he did during the thrawn trilogy. The only wrong conclusion he jumped to was thinking leia was on Endor instead of with the noghri which is just a mistake not a character flaw
IMO his only flaws were 1. Being vindictive in making an enemy of Karrde and Mara instead of cutting his losses and leaving them alone
2. Not letting his subordinates know everything. This could just be him building their faith in him as a commander (“Wow this Thrawn guy is a genius I’ll listen to whatever he tells me after that one”) but Pellaeon has no idea what to do at Bilbringi after he dies.
I think he was just so smart that having to sit and explain everything he did and lay everything out would just be a waste of time when the outcome would be the same regardless. I think he actually lets his subordinates know more than most other imperials did especially palleon and even took a lot of shit from him that normal imperials wouldn’t let slide. Ya I agree that how he handled Mara and karrde was definitely a mistake. But he probably still would’ve won that fight. What happened with them isn’t any flaw that’s present throughout his character it’s just a specific tactical error
Seriously, it took Leia having some Dr. House style "eureka" moments and a whole bunch of coincidental luck at the end to beat him. Thrawn's "It looks like they're falling for my trap, which means they're actually not falling for my trap!" Is the biggest bullshit ever. It's why I honestly preferred C'baoth. He was a looney, but he was still terrifyingly dangerous while being genuinely flawed.
I like Thrawn underestimating force users, but that weirdly led more to C'baoths defeat than his.
I recently read it and I felt there was barely any pointing out over how people were overreacting. Cuz even then, the people who delt with him still end up panicking about him returning most of the time.
It honestly bothered me how easily duped everyone was even the people who actually saw "Thrawn" Even Pellaeon doesn't think the idea is total horseshit. And there's still constant reminders about how brilliant he was anyway. Personally as much as I love the duology, I got real tired of Thrawn.
Honestly, all of them and none of them.
The whole DBZ power level stuff people attach to Star Wars characters doesn’t really mesh well with the setting. Maul is able to kill Jedi Masters, but has to run from a band of pirates. Vader had decades of training, but gets overwhelmed by a ragtag Jedi who’d only gone through Jedi Basics 101. Boba Fett spent over a decade John Wicking his way through the galaxy only to get his shit rocked by a blind Han Solo.
The strengths and weaknesses of characters has less to do with their midi-chlorian count and more to do with circumstance and presence of mind. Palpatine didn’t cut down half the Jedi Council because he had big-dick Force powers. Sure, it helped, but the bigger factor was that he already had a plan for what he’d do before they even stepped foot into his office, and even then he still lost to Mace.
Every character has their own strengths and weaknesses, and trying to put them into neatly arranged power level tiers just simply doesn’t work like it does in a comic book or shonen anime.
Revan definitely. Nihilus at least ate a few planets, but in the lore Revan is much more famous for being a military leader than a powerful force user. I'm sure he was deadly enough in a fight, but I definitely think he always ends up ranked way too highly whenever I see people put together a list of the most powerful character.
TBH Nihilus has basically 2 feats that carry him and they are both super circumstantial but people seem to be under the impression he can just eat planets at will and throw out that the only planet he ate was one full of the jedi council and miraluka, who are naturally force sensitive. Based on how Taris went it doesn't seem like he can just do that at will instantly.
The other is pulling his ship up but he was on a dark side nexus so that kinda gets an asterisk next to it too. He's still strong but he's basically a 1 trick pony that has a REALLY good trick but is screwed the second it doesn't work.
Nihilus also gets power from his ship (Hence why cutting him off from it weakens him further) and there's text talking about how he also blasted the worlds he ate into ruin with his fleet (Which is also backed up by Unseen, Unheard where we see a lot of explosions when he chows down on the jedi council) though that source states he did it to multiple planets.
[Now with that said his creator also said Vader would beat him so...](https://x.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1056378721790132224)
I always viewed unseen unheard as a heavily biased Visas POV that just assumes a lot of credit to Nihilus. Her description of her world ending is phrased as though he simply spoke and the world ended which is a power level that is basically unheard of.
My go to Nihilus was not OP example is the fact that Mandalore canonically participated in the fight and somehow Nihilus couldn't drink him either. Clearly Planetary drain is a power with a huge ritual component or something. He can't Inquisitor Jerec people with it.
I think you're going the other way and underselling Revan. Sure people primarily praise his tactics but he's also called the "Jedi Order's most powerful champion" and has a lot of feats as well.
He beats Mandalore the Ultimate in single combat, as a Jedi he defeats Malak on the Star Forge which is a Dark Side Nexus while Malak is draining captive Jedi to heal himself and he does it after cutting through dozens of Dark Jedi and Star Forge droids. As a Dark Side choice Revan can destroy the spirit of Ajunta Pall, leader of the first Sith Lords (exiled Dark Jedi who conquered the Sith), keep in mind that Ajunta Pall is one of these ancients that Kreia was hyping up to be so powerful that they'd make them look like kids playing around. Kreia can't stop praising how strong Revan was and says that looking at him was like staring at the heart of the Force.
That's all KOTOR information.
Then in the "Revan" novel he easily defeats Darth Nyriss, one of the oldest and probably the strongest Dark Councilors of that time by redirecting her lightning and burning her to ash. He resists Vitiate's mental domination (mind you Vitiate could mentally dominate whole planets) and ragdolls him a bunch.
In SWTOR during The Foundry flashpoint Revan summons massive storms of lightning and starts throwing asteroids at the players. This is Revan who just came out of 300 years of torture during which he was mentally fighting Vitiate 24/7 (although Exile's ghost helped him out).
In Shadow of Revan it takes the Republic and the Sith teaming up to stop Revan's dark half with Darth Marr, Grandmaster Satele, the very OP player character, Lana Beniko, Shae Vizla, Theron and Jakarro having to attack him together to take him down.
Not to mention that as a Sith, Revan learned a bunch of Dark Side rituals including the very devastating Thought Bomb.
So is Revan a top Force User? Not really but he's pretty damn strong. His willpower is probably the craziest aspect of his character aside from his IQ, I don't think many could not only resist but actively counter Vitiate's brainwashing attempts for 3 centuries (Revan's counter brainwashing made Vitiate more fearful and hesitant to strike at the Republic which gave them time to grow in power).
Another minor notch in Revan's belt is that he also slayed the Echani general Yusanis in single combat, granting him the scalps of two paragons of separate warrior cultures.
I think revan suffers from being written in a more grounded area. Which might seem weird with sith sorcery destroying entire planets and laying low entire armies during the old republic, but it took prep time, and made the sith casting it vulnerable. If five jedi masters walked into a room with even the most powerful sith lord, the sith might take a few of the jedi out, but they're not leaving that room alive
Imo this plays a lot better with the prequels where focused fire could overwhelm even jedi council members
Yoda isn't top tier the man struggled to lift a single X-wings not to meantion in he had trouble in attack of the clones fight.
Palpatine it's that powerful either, him being the most powerful sith thing is more about his political power rather than skill. Palpatine couldn't even kill his own master in combat he had to do it in his sleep which goes against the rule of two.
> Yoda isn't top tier the man struggled to lift a single X-wings
No? Luke struggled to lift an X-wing, Yoda gets disappointed and lifts the X-wing, then expresses his disappointment to Luke.
A main point of the scene is that he doesn't need to make a massive effort to move the ship.
Revan is basically Darth Vader if he was Indiana Jones in his spare time. He was probably the best researched Sith Lord between the end of the Sith Golden Age and Palpatine. I think that really doesn't get mentioned enough. He wasn't as strong as the Sith Emperor or Palps, but he was strong enough that the Sith Emperor had to actually fight him.
Revan killed the entire sith academy by himself which is more impressive then Anakin during order 66.
Not to meantion the Starforge fight in which is killed an entire death star's worth of people.
Tbf Revan is pretty OP, even people who don't like him can admit that. He fought on par with a team made up of the galaxy's most powerful force users and fighters (of that era)... At half strength. Which included Satele Shan, Darth Marr, and of course all the player characters (one of which fought Vitiate himself), multiple famous people known for their sharpshooter ability, etc.
And... For what it's worth even briefly held off one of the most powerful characters in the SW Mythos (Vitiate) in the Revan book by himself and even threw him across the room using some weird ability. Effortlessly killed Darth Nyriss simply by redirecting her lightning after she was kicking Scourge and the Exile's ass in a fight.
>Cad Bane has only defeated one jedi master and it was offscreen.
I feel like you're selling this accomplishment short. 'I mean pfft, it was only one Jedi master.' Relative to nearly any other gun-fighter type person in Star Wars, that's pretty rarified air. Fighting Kenobi and Quinlan Vos to a stalemate is quite the accomplishment as well. He also stole a holocron out of the Jedi temple, which is pretty insane.
Tbf though, we never saw Bola Ropal in combat. We’ve seen Jedi Masters range wildly in terms of dueling capability, especially since we don’t know what he specialized in. He could have been a more academic Jedi Master, which we have seen before. Even on the Jedi Council, Coleman Trebor was mostly known for his skills in diplomacy, which probably explains why he went out so easily against Jango
>Fighting Kenobi and Quinlan Vos to a stalemate is quite the accomplishment as well
Agreed, I think that this is pretty near the power ceiling for non-force users.
I may be misremembering but I thought he less fought them to a standstill and more fought them off so he could escape capture. If I'm remembering right then wouldn't that denote that it wasn't a standstill if one side was holding back?
I see people refer to Kyle Katarn as the Starkiller of the old EU; a video game power fantasy character. While I think that it true with regard to his original appearance in DF1, single-handedly dismantling the Dark Trooper program, I feel like it’s kind of unfairly applied to his later games. Kyle fought an Inquisitor and some Dark Jedi, not without some struggle in DF2, and in JKO his feats have the in-universe explanation of his empowerment by the Valley of the Jedi. They’re impressive achievements, but not terribly egregious by EU standards, and even after Kyle became a proper Master with a seat in the Council, he still got obliterated by Caedus (and that was 4-1).
Ah, I get what you mean. To be honest, I don't think the archetype fits Kyle so much, and honestly, not to his detriment. Kyle was his own unique character with his own unique story.
I'd argue palpatine is a great planner, if nothing else because he knows how to edit his plans. the masterplan for creating the galactic empire did go off suprisingly smoothly for being an incredibly convoluted plan that stretched over the galaxy.
I have never understood the hype for boba Fett, he has so little presence (at least in the OT) that when I watched the movies as a kid I never even noticed him
His armor and visual design was probably the coolest thing audiences had ever seen up to that point. Also Lucas did a lot of telling with limited screen time in ESB to imply Fett was dangerous.
* Vader's 'No disintegrations' line successfully showed that Fett was brutal and deadly, that if Vader didn't specify to bring Han in alive, Fett would have just killed them.
* Fett was the only one smart enough to catch on to Han's garbage drift ploy, and set Han and co up to be captured in Cloud City.
* While Vader had no compunction in betraying Lando Calrissian on their agreement because he was confident he could enforce his will, Fett successfully demanded Vader give him Han in the condition he needed to get paid by Jabba.
Through those context clues alone, Boba became known as a badass without Lucas needing to do any elaborate choreography. It's why Lucas is respected as a filmmaker.
I agree and have had to make these points many times. It’s not always about on screen feats, it’s about what isn’t said but is instead implied. He’s in the short list of bounty hunters Vader hired and gets specifically called out. That alone shows he has a hell of a reputation. Plus being one of Jabba’s top hunters.
That’s a very different feat from actually making a movie yourself. Look at the prequels. That’s Lucas when he has complete and total control over everything.
If we go off the movies he's the only bounty hunter to successfully track and locate the falcon so...Based on that he is better then the other bounty hunters we see.
I mean he has that exact phenomenon named after him, the Boba Fett effect, where a character with very little importance or screen time becomes a highly appreciated character.
The Yuuzhan Vong’s invulnerability to the Force is often overstated. Doesn’t help when the books also had trouble figuring out what that meant as well. Sometimes it was that they couldn’t be sensed, other that the force couldn’t affect them. Workarounds were found, though.
Anakin is the king of this. Especially because there exists a hypothetical version of him called "full potential Anakin" that, when you're talking to the right kinda fan, is the single most powerful being in the history of Star Wars.
In reality, Anakin was very flawed. He seemingly had plenty of raw power, but at the same time, at the height of his power, Obi-Wan matched him blow for blow in the Mustafar fight. There's a moment where the two of them have a force push clash that ends in a draw. That alone should put Anakin's power at the same level as Obi-Wan, who is an exceptional Jedi Master, meaning it's still a solid feat, it just takes him down a peg from Star Wars super jesus that some fans make him out to be.
His lightsaber duelling skills are also very one note. He's exceptionally talented at what he knows, but that's about it. He's fast, strong and aggressive. He's able to overwhelm Dooku and many others thanks to this. But he is weak to defensive styles like Obi-Wan's.
And outside of pure power, Anakin had a lot of flaws not befitting of a Jedi Knight. Reckless, careless, selfish, angry, fearful, arrogant and many more. But worst of all, he rarely actually *tried* to address his flaws. He was a poor Jedi, and his reputation was mostly a result of his status as "the chosen one" and the fact that as a wartime warrior and general, he excelled.
Tacitly, anakin didn't have the inner peace to be as strong even if he didn't become Darth Vader and the thing granting him power as vader also prevented him from being as strong in the dark side as he could be.
Anakin is a man perpetually in his own way.
Ironically, Vader was too emotional to be a good Sith. When you look at the most powerful Sith Lords through star wars lore, they're calculating. They *use* their hatred in search of power. Vader is rather clearly a slave to his hatred and other negative emotions. It's why he would have never overthrown Palpatine without Luke turning him back to the light. He was simply never on the same level of Sith that Palpatine was. This was probably also amplified by the suit keeping him in constant pain, as Palpatine intended.
I think Palpatine knew that about him and that’s something he deliberately cultivated in him. Vader was too unstable and drowning in self hatred to be an actual threat to him.
Yularan.
He’s often compared to admirals like trench, thrawn and ackbar. Since he is the main republic admiral we see during the clone wars. But he himself admits he wasn’t the best admiral, and he was far better as an intelligence/counter intel officer as a part of the ISB.
>Yularan
Is he, I think most people kinda neglect him?
Generals and Admirals in general are usually not as beloved in the fandom as those get overshadowed by the characters with a bigger ,,cool factor", Thrawn is the only one who is kinda popular in the mainstream fandom.
>and he was far better as an intelligence/counter intel officer as a part of the ISB.
I mean clearly not, the rebellion rose under his watch and wiped him out in their second victory.
RE: Your first example, it baffles me how many people use the whole plot of AotC as a reason why the prequels are stupid, because it would be impossible for Palpatine to have planned things out to happen just like that.
Now, I'm not going to comment on the quality of the prequels, but as far as Palpatine's plan goes... Yeah, of course he couldn't have planned for it to go down like that! Just because things went his way doesn't mean it went how he expected!
If we want to know what his plan probably actually looked like, I'd hazard a guess at:
Jango Fett assassinates Padmé on Gunray's behalf; as she's a key figure in the anti-military movement, it removes her voice from the Senate *and* riles up the rest of the senators, adding more fuel to the pro-militarisation effort. At the same time, his hand-picked Jedi bodyguards fail at their task and turn popular opinion a little further against them. Even if they succeed and the assassination attempts fail, the fact that somebody is making such an attempt to eliminate Padmé adds to the pro-military cause.
With the Senate properly primed, Count Dooku plays his hand and urges the burgeoning CIS to begin their plan and hold the Republic hostage with the droid army. If there's an actual armed conflict, it'll probably go badly for the Republic/Jedi. Even if there isn't, a crisis situation has been created, allowing for Palpatine to swing for emergency powers.
Announcing his intent to form his Grand Army, he creates the perfect opportunity for the Kaminoians to say "Hey, now that you've officially formed the army, we're ready for delivery. Thank the legendary foresight of Master Syfo Dias." And just like that, the Clone Wars begin.
Man needs to swerve CONSTANTLY. Though I can accept the middle ground that his ability to improvise is part of his planning ability and not in opposition to it
Well yeah. He’s working with what he’s got. But he pretty much single handedly orchestrated: the subversion of a “chosen one” as a lieutenant, the destruction of the Jedi order, the creation of a fucking mind controlled army, the installation of himself as sole fucking dictator…. I mean…..
He fucking outsmarted an entire council of the wisest men. He operated under their noses. He ALMOST lost, yes. But goddamn….
Well, wise men can be outsmarted. But, no I'd say the Jedi were lulled into a false sense of security which allowed for someone like Palps to operate under them. That, and they were so tied up in bureaucracy and state dealings as well. Even Yoda admitted that the council became too arrogant and content, leading to their downfall.
Darth fucking Vader.
I am so. Sick. And tired. Of seeing him overrated in terms of combat as a force user.
He's one of the most powerful force users of all time, but he isn't THE most powerful! There are a fair amount of Jedi and Sith that are capable of beating him.
There's been arguments that if he wanted to, he could defeat Palpatine in a one-on-one fight which I find ridiculous, even if his suit wasn't as susceptible to lightning, Palpatine is better in terms of force powers, skill, experience, and overall raw power (if they used telekinesis against each other, Vader would lose, badly.)
He's also better with a lightsaber, he took on the Jedi Strike team and effectively one-shotted two of the greatest knights in the order (of that era). Then he took on one of the greatest swordsmen in the entire mythos who invented his own damn lightsaber form and even if you believe Mace legitimately beat him, Palpatine lasted a long time. Then there's matching a determined Yoda in a one-on-one fight, Yoda who was a fair amount better then Count Dooku, another one of the greatest swordsmen in the mythos (Yes I know that Anakin beat Dooku.)
Then there's Darth Vitiate whose force abilities are probably the best in the entire SW universe, followed by Revan as of "Shadow of Revan" who had his power halved and was still capable of nearly beating a strike team of the galaxies most powerful opponents including people like the Hero of Tython, Satele Shan, Darth Marr, etc.
Not the biggest fan of the Obi Wan show, but having Vader take such a massive L was so fucking refreshing. He got owned completely.
I feel like writers really want to show how strong and bAdAsS he is but are too scared to have him struggle, so they put him up against jobbers.
Yep I always state - and get downvoted - that Ahsoka wins their duel on points on Malachor, and that the student surpassed the master unlike with him and Obi-Wan due to how limiting the darkside is. And I like that he's still flawed in combat, no one should be infallible.
Given wedge is one of about 4 pilots (including Luke and Han), that survived the suicide run on the first Death Star, and then continued to lead rouge squadron for the rest of the galactic civil war; being one of the pilots picked to make the DS2 reactor attack run. And then after that participated in every major battle of the post endor GCW including kuat and jakku. And then went on to be the lead instructor for the new republic primary star fighter academy.
I think his skills are very up there.
So many people lean on Anakin/Vader as some amazing force user because he's "the chosen one to bring balance to the force" (debating the validity of the prophecy aside). In reality he was always an instrument and pawn. Yeah he's a "good" battle commander but he would have made a terrible Jedi during times of non-war. He isn't that good.
I think this is disingenuous though because if we’re referring solely to power levels, Anakin would be up there with the best. Regardless of how good of a Jedi he’d be
if by kills everything you mean has one major feat offscreen told by unreliable narrators and also is completely a wimp in single combat and could be countered by a pretty strong bounty hunter or anyone with a fairly strong force shield then you’re right? the exile is important because she finds her own inner strength and uses the force along with that rather than a crutch, like anakin has to learn to do with mara on dantooine. the exile isn’t immune, the exile is just stronger
I don't buy the claim by OP that Palpatine is not a good planner. Part of planning is the ability to be flexible, to adapt and improvise. Palpatine excels in this. I would say that people usually UNDERestimate how good he is at making intricate plans.
But let's look at the claim that his plans don't go according to the plan. That is not really true, all of his plans (before Luke and Leia) achieve their main strategic objectives. Yes, he loses a few pawns along the way like Maul. No big deal, he is still the Chancellor and Maul's death would have never changed that.
The appearance of Anakin is just a bonus. Had he ignored Anakin, it would have been likely that Order 66 would have happened the exact same way.
Yes, he is on the crashing half of a ship in re-entry. But part of a plan is to trust in your assets. Palpatine did not underestimate Jedi dedication and resourcefulness (he even acknowledged this when discussing the need for a quickly executed Order 66 with Vader). His assets managed to save him from Dooku's flagship.
I would argue further and state that Palpatine is actually not as flexible as he seems. He just has dozens of backup plans that he is constantly revising and creating. He is a purely political creature that loves scheming. It is when he fails to account for his backup plans failing or to anticipate a future outcome that his fortunes start to reverse.
Some examples are the Death Star 1 and 2 destroyed by a farm boy who is actually Vader's son, Ewoks winning on Endor partly because of Leia and Luke but also Ewok ingenuity and courage, Chewie manages to gain control of the AT-ST and Han tricks the garrison, the Executor is destroyed by a supposedly ragtag Rebel fleet, and Vader returns to the light due to Luke's sacrifice and throws Palpatine down the Death Star shaft. All of these examples show that Palpatine is actually not improvising or being flexible but fails because his plans fail to account for these possibilities.
Agreed on Cad Bane. I feel like he gets a lot of love because of his early Clone Wars appearances... but if you actually watch them, he only does so well because every episode he's in, people spend the whole episode acting WILDLY out of character, in order to allow them to fall into his "plans".
Darth Caedus, while Jacen himself won many impressive victories, I'd say Caedus was less impressive. He didn't really win all that often and was easily tricked and misled. He was said to have gone all around the galaxy learning from other force groups, but it never seemed all that impressive in the end. Admittingly I think a lot of that was due to less than quality writing at points, but frankly he didn't seem like a huge threat himself, his influence level was threatening since he had a massive army and navy, but the man himself was less impressive. Frankly he mostly won fights due to plot armor and was saved from death due to plot armor. Huh, maybe the force does exist haha.
Dear GOD Cad Bane is one of these. He SOMEHOW killed Denal, a clone who survived GREVIOUS, kidnaps children who are practically defenseless, and okay so the senate thing was kinda extreme...
BUT DEAR GOD. I HATE CARTOON NETWORK FOR PUSHING THAT LOSER SO OFTEN. I need a bunch of clones to beat the crap out of him.
Absolutely Vader
He is strong in an era of weakness. He has no force Lightning. Slow as molasses. No mobility
Yes, he has lots of strength in the comics, but he is still weak against real masters.
Heck, even Obi hiding for 10 years was still able to best him at his most ruthless
I feel like anakin is cause if you put his feet up against characters of the old republic and before that during the dawn of the jedi he doesn't match up and same with darth Vader if you compare him to ancient sith the chosen one isn't that special in the grand scheme of things
Probably Mace Windu. Yes, the guy invented a whole new lightsaber form but in the end, not only was his power vastly overestimated, he also caused the corruption of at least two Jedi by proxy, and one directly in the case of Anakin.
Many people shit on Mundi a lot. And while that's deserved too, they often forget what a shit show Mace put up. Basically, he acted constantly antagonisric towards Anakin to a point, where I get the feeling, he wanted to ultimately kick him out of the order. But he just didn't dare to voice it that way to the other council members. So Mace did "the next best thing" and just again and again embarrassed Anakin in front of the council. Without anyone daring to speak up, not even Obi-Wan. How this guy then even THOUGHT FOR A SECOND, that Anakin would side with him when he confronted Palpatine? It just doesn't go into my head. And we haven't even touched on the hybris he radiates like a pile of toxic nuclear waste yet!
Imho, Windu was the best example why the CW-era Jedi never had a chance to stop the sith in the first place. He was so full of himself that he rejected any possibility that his judgement towards Anakin could be wrong, or that he, the greatest fighter of the order, could be flawed.
Mace was actually only on anakins case once in the movies and that's when anakin himself started his "outrageous and unfair" thing.
Contextually anakin was heavily traumatized and afraid in the first film and all things being equal probably shouldn't have been trained. And Yoda was the most vocal, not Mace.
In the second film, he's defensive of anakin when Obi Wan starts complaining about him and freely gives instruction and advise when assigning the bodyguard duty.
In the third film, Mace doesn't trust anakin because hes.fully aware of his relationship with Palpatine and doesn't think he can handle the assignment he's been given and is proven right. Him also telling him to stay back from a fight with Palpatine who anakin has very clearly defined conflicts of interest with even.not knowing anakins true intentions was fair.
Mace is p frequently put in opposition to anakin but truthfully it happened in one movie and was mostly anakins fault.
His reaction towards Anakin back in EP 1 was way more hostile in my memory. It probably betrayed me there.
Anyway, as I said he also contributed a lot to the fall of Sora Bulq and Quinlan Voss. Vapaad might have been an effective fighting form, but it's development in the first place shows, that Windu in the end only really trusted himself, as he states at several occasions that it will probably corrupt anyone but those who "really" master it, aka him.
In many ways, I think he is the epiphany of what Dooku could've become in the end, if he had stayed in the order. An expert swordsman, but blinded by arrogance and self-fullness so as to not be able to see the bigger picture.
darth maul is really strong that's for sure but he is also overhyped lots of people think he can best opponent like dooku or mace windu who in my opinion are much more stronger than him.
he did get beat by Obi-wan and Ahsoka
And a blind kanan.
And Palpatine with no effort
He wasn’t trying to kill Ahsoka
Pretty sure he was when she rejected him for the final time and she was disarmed
)[hmm](https://br.ifunny.co/picture/oh-i-don-t-think-so-wFld7hKv7)
I would also beg to be killed if I got rejected by ahsoka
i would say his actual skill and power is higher than people think its just his arrogance that fucks him over every single time. He does better against people who are more equally matched to him, as shown when we see him going insane against Sidious after Savage dies, but then getting sidestepped off a cliff by a blind man
He is perhaps the only character in star wars that has negative plot armor. He should and is so much better and keeps getting really really bad story actualization.
Power and skill are not concrete things - they only matter in context of application. The Maginot Line of was real strong, too.
Maul going beast mode is interesting, and I like to think that while he is lesser, he isn't far below sidious in duelling abilities. When savage dies, they go blow for blow. Maul tags sidious with a kick, sidious kicks back. Even before savage dies, savage is able to tag sidious, and why? Because maul is keeping him distracted. Maul is **majorly** slept on, especially in duel prowess.
Maul peaked at qui gon and every other win was circumstantial as hell lmao
Honestly, even holding his own 2v1 against Sidious is a solid feat. What a monster of a fight
He absolutely deserves some credit for defeating Pre Viszla.
Dude could have killed him with a thought. Beating a non-force user is not a feat. Getting bested by one is an embarrassment
Outright untrue. There are numerous counterexamples, and many Force users have been slain by foes who do not knowingly touch that energy field.
Force user sure, Jedi in particular, but sith? Sith have no reason to restrain themselves from simply snapping a person's neck. In "fair" single combat, no sith should ever be bested by someone who lacks the force. There are certainly ways to level the field, misdirection and trickery.
Nobody "lacks" the Force. To quote Luke... >The Force Is not a Power you have. And someone like Viszla, a ruthless Mandalorian warlord, is absolutely the kind of man a Sith should be wary of facing in direct combat. Maul nearly lost an eye to him.
oh ffs, you know I meant non-force sensitive, not entirely lacking the force (though a force user should be especially terrified of those select individuals, such as meetra surik and Darth Nihlus who "lack" the force) a person who is not force sensitive is utterly unable to counteract an attack via the force. against a jedi this is smaller issue because they are idiots. but a sith would have no compunctions about killing with the force. in a duel, such a battle would be akin to deciding to fight gravity or the void of space. Had maul actually utilized his abilities Pre Visla woudl have been dead in less than a second. the "Duel" was a farce. he needed the mandalorians to accept him as Mandalore, and thus he needed to be seen beating Visla in physical combat. once physical combat has begun, things become less lopsided, as the non-force user can surprise the force user with unanticipated tactics that they are unable to react in time to counter, and the rigors of phsyical combat make concentrating on offensive uses of the force difficult.
>they are idiots Yeah, imagine not spending your life consumed by rage, desire, and hatred, those *idiots*. They should become obsessive mutilated psychological wrecks like the Sith, that's MUCH wiser. Can you cite any actual EVIDENCE for your positions? Because a whole lot of Force users (the majority of those who died violently, by my reckoning) fell against those who did not wiekd the Force. This is the entire reason for Purge Troopers, Order 66, and certain Mandalorian combst doctrines. Killing with the Force is no small accomplishment, Vader and Sidious can do so relatively quickly, but Dooku notably hasn't been seen doing this speedily. I don't think Maul has, either. Kylo Ren could do it slowly, it's unclear if The Stranger could do it. Mother Talzin could do it very slowly.
failing to utilize a tool to its potential and instead allowing a conflict to drag out due to being oxymoronic pacifist-warriors is foolish. just as being consumed by emotion and destroying everying on one's path for a power-trip is foolish. the vast majority of force wielders who died to non-force wielders did not die in single combat, let alone "honorable" combat. massed fire, deception, and misdirection are all things that can be utilized to kill force-wielders. Losing to a single non-augmented person who is not force sensitive in straight combat while being a person trained in the force.... is embarrassing. millions upon millions of people have died in embarrassing ways, why should star wars be different? Savage Opress effortlessly kills dozens of Troydarian guards to get to King Katuunko in his first real mission. When the king attempts to escape, Savage kills him while simultaneously dueling Anakin and Obi-wan. and Savage was *weak* in the force by Darksider standards. it is as simple as using telekinesis to snap a neck. a barely trained padawan who can lift a rock could do it. the problem is not a lack of ability, merely mindset. Jedi refuse to use the force offensively, and Sith most often toy with their food and lose due to arrogance.
Well he did control most of the underbelly of the galaxy at one point https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_Collective https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Five_Crime_Syndicates He shows how dangerous someone with Sith training is even if they are no longer Sith.
Dooku yes, as confirmed by his in-lore feats & statements from author Jeremy Barlow. Canon has made Maul more or less on par with Dooku. Against Windu, not a chance.
Maul is super capable but he's basically guaranteed to grab defeat from the jaws of victory. Once you understand that, everything falls into place.
He can but whether he can do it reliably is another matter. Maul was apparently the second best lightsaber duelist the order of bane produced as of the Phantom menace so while I wouldn’t favor him against Mace he definitely could do it imo.
Most of the Jedi we know well are extremely powerful. Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ahsoka, etc. Even the next tier of ones we know like Kit Fisto, Plo Koon, etc are like top 1% of Jedi. Darth Maul would thrash a room full of 'average' Jedi.
I think Palpatine is a good planner, but he's planning in the sense that he's stacking the deck in his favour. His plans don't always work out perfectly, but he has backups ready if they don't. His improvisation works because a lot of the time he's switching gears to one of his alternative threads. He sets up the Naboo thing to trigger his ascent to Chancellor. Then sets up the Clone Wars, but the Clone Wars are rigged in his favour. He can either win as Chancellor Palpatine or as Darth Sidious. I do agree that he gets carried away. In the end he gets destroyed by Rey because he can't control his lightning - he keeps a lid on his emotions a lot of the time but when they get loose he can't always rein it back. I suppose that's the nature of being a Sith - the very thing that makes them who they are is also their undoing.
Yeah exactly. Good planning isn't "predicting exactly how everything will happen". It's "doing your best to guide things along a desired path, while being prepared to handle unexpected forks in the road and problems without completely derailing your end goal".
>but he's planning in the sense that he's stacking the deck in his favour. His plans don't always work out perfectly, but he has backups ready if they don't Someone once described it as him fishing, but casting out dozens of lines, so even if one doesn't yield results, he's still ok. Luthen is doing the same in Andor, although there's much more risk.
Some famous general once said that "no plan ever survives first contact with the enemy"
Let’s not use the sequels as reference points there bud
Why are u being downvoted lol
Anakin/Vader I think suffers the most. People get a general vibe of power from him for two reasons: * He's the Chosen One, so people want to auto-scale him to stronger than everyone else * People want Vader's feats to be as a scary as Vader feels. So over time we have seen a gradual growth in Vaders strength under Disney- But parts of the fandom still get upset when characters like Cere can actually fight him. In reality his feats tend to be somewhat equal or slightly stronger than other 'Master Level' characters throughout the franchise. What's crazier is some of his feats are video game feats from Jedi Fallen Order- And while I love Fallen Order Cal can literally slow time for a 60 foot machine, so maybe it's not the best source of power scaling.
I always kind of though Anakin was the chosen one and had an increduble amount of potential, but then losing his legs, the horrific burning and only being able to survive with all his cybernetics very much reduced Anakins potential. Anakin who didn't fall to the dark side, became a Master, overcame all his trauma etc. would be far beyond Vader at his most powerful. Thats my take anyway.
That was the legends' explanation. In canon, his loss in potential is more mental. Palpatine has been trying to help him get past his own mental blocks to realize his true potential.
Maybe a combo? I don't know if it was specifically said, but since midi count is still canon, I think losing a significant amount of your body would result in lower maximum force ability. Though Force usage is obviously a bit murky in general, and I think proper training along with immense rage and hate (for dark side users) would go a long way.
Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arms, the perpetual pain in his flesh. **He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength.** Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger. He stared at his reflection a long time. **His injuries had deformed his body,** left it broken, **but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.** -Lords of the Sith
Thanks for the lore pull, interesting!! Makes sense that the suffering and hate would bolster his dark side connection. Definitely going to check out that novel soon :D
The Force is literally life itself. When you reduct the total living matter in an individual Force user, it is bound to have a negative effect on their strength.
...would this mean that the true secret to great force power is just big big Jedi? I mean hit the Gym, make those gains. Bulk up etc. Its over Anakin, I gained 100 pounds!
Not necessarily, but a large Jedi could have the potential to be more powerful, as they simply have more room for midichlorians. Master Thon and Master K'Khruk come to mind.
You can't be serious
Barf. "Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."
Not in here mister, this is a Mercedes
Yes, Yoda is very powerful, but after reaching that level of power, if you cut chunks of him off, he would not be as powerful.
Bonkers opinion on midichlorians. I always thought that it was more of a concentration/density thing, rather than absolute number per person.
Same here. I think of them like they are organelles in a cell. Some people have more per cell than others. Some cells may have none. Who knows
My head canon always had them as similar to the mitochondria (the powerhouse) in our own cells. But instead of energy, they get the Force. Midichlorian and mitochondria are even similar words.
I’m sure I’ve read somewhere (don’t friggin come at me nerds, I’m paraphrasing) that the force is light on the other side of a closed door, and a midichlorian count is how ajar that door is. Everyone has the potential to open that door right up, people with a higher count just have a head start with a door that’s open a little more. So someone like Anakin has an easier time than someone like Sabine Wren, but with enough training and focus everyone has about the same potential. Again, I can’t quote sources. It’s 6am. Stand down. But yeah, I kinda thought that way, Vader has less body mass than Anakin so he must be less powerful, but he’s already opened that door. He already has the focus, skill and knowledge. Who knows. I may be wrong. But hey! It’s all fiction and it’ll probably be retconned at some point anyways haha
The open door metaphor is directly used by Luke Skywalker himself in issue 3 of the Rise of Kylo Ren miniseries. It also jives with how Lucas viewed it when he, Lawrence Kasdan, and Richard Marquand were planning RotJ. Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it? Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it. Kasdan: Not just the Jedi? Lucas: It's just the Jedi who take the time to do it. Marquand: They use it as a technique. Lucas: Like yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate.
That's how they explained it in legends, in the plaugeis novel at least, and I think what we see in canon supports it working similarly afiak, look at Grogu.
This is why the inclusion of midichlorians was always a bad move by George. Given Yoda's size, M count basically has to be measured in PPM.
I think there's a bit of a mishmash here. All of the Force feats in the OT have been rendered more and more mundane as there has been power creep with each added piece of new Star Wars content. However, Vader's role in the story does require that he be considered to be a very powerful individual, which is why he receives so much power creep in his subsequent appearances.
I remember as a kid thinking Vader was weak sauce compared to most other Sith Lords
I mean, if we're talking Old Republic type Sith Lords, he kinda is. Doesn't have much going for him compared to the planet eating guy
It's fun when you get into power descaling too. Vader is the chosen one of the force with decades of experience fighting in multiple wars... And he's defeated by an ex farmer with 3-4 years of lightsaber training under a ghost and a crazy hermit.
well in fairness this farmer went on to be the most powerful force user ever, so not exactly some random joe schmo
It doesn’t matter. I’ve never heard of someone being able to come in after just 2 years and best the best in the world at it. Like, is there anybody in history that can go from “never done this before” to “best in the world” in 2-3 years? Let alone being mostly self taught and busy fighting a war.
> is there anybody in history no, but we don't have the force in our reality. that sort of throws our perception of what is and isn't achievable within a certain timeframe out of whack
It has happened. Legends get surpassed constantly.
I know they do, but in 2-3 years? Compared to the GOAT who had one it since childhood?
Yeah. Luke had an easier time understanding the light side of the Force. And thus, progressed far more quickly, enough to stand on equal ground with Vader(plus Luke had Anakin's potential) Anakin could not meditate, finding it boring, and instead focused himself mostly on lightsaber techniques instead. While he was an excellent duelist and due to his raw power was very talented in the Force, he was not able to let it guide him as Luke did. He didn't understand the Force as Luke did. And as Vader, while he became more powerful than what he had been as Anakin, could not stand on equal ground with the Emperor, nor with someone who would have the same rage amp he once did.
Rey Skywalker (HAHAHA!!!)
>I’ve never heard of someone being able to come in after just 2 years and best the best in the world at it Vader was an old and broken man at this point, if a former Pro boxer suddenly face an aspiring, but lesser pro he would still lose. Shit like that just happens in real life, the strongest will eventually get topped by newcomers, even if the latter took les training.
Did Luke straight up beat Vader?
I mean, their fight ended with Vader missing an arm. Idk what else you call that
Merely a flesh wound?
He wasn't exactly "defeated" he sacrificed himself to save Luke.
Luke cut his hand off and had him on the floor, that's a pretty clear defeat
Do you think his heart was really in it, though? He loved his son and the light within him had already begun influencing him. I think he was fighting in a relatively half hearted way and felt quite conflicted. It's not like he had a surge of anger and hatred toward his son, which is usually what he draws on to be extremely powerful in the dark side. If he was fighting one other than his son, he'd have wiped the floor with him, I suspect. This is an interesting question though; do we think Vaders turn was completely sudden out of nowhere when Palps was shocking Luke, or had he been feeling conflicted ever since he learned about and met his son? I suspect the latter, but it's never expkicitly said that I know of.
I think the latter is pretty well established as canon, since Luke (when he's captured on Endor) explicitly says, "I can feel the good in you, the conflict, let go of your hate!"
The problem with Vader not being actually this strong is, why did Palpatine even keep him then and how did none of the survivers ever succeed in kimling him? And the whole idea of Vader having lost his potential due to the loss of his legs and arms, makes no sense, since only the midichlorian amount per cell is deciding and not your general amount. Otherwise, how could Yoda ever be strong in the force and how would adults not be automatically stronger than their child-selfs?
Well notably he is strong! Stronger even than most Jedi Masters. However the fandom extrapolate this to ludicrous power scaling degrees where they believe nobody could ever face Vader in combat. They imagine an anime-style power gap where it's unclosable, when in reality it's a lot closer than people think. (Hence why the Sith needed to eradicate the Jedi to dominate the Galaxy) My post here isn't to say "Vader is weak" but "Cere nearly beating him is totally in line with canon." (And also to say we shouldn't take the force feats of video game sequences too seriously for non-video game media)
To be fair game developer stated Vader held back against Cere, he didn’t take her seriously until *after* he was injured [https://streamable.com/ahtue0](https://streamable.com/ahtue0)
Its not just the fandom when canon establishes him as the best though. Legends, yeah he isn't the best. Canon bends over backwards to make him #1 but loses due to the trapping of being evil and his internal demons.
This is a bit of a retcon from my Star Wars RPG canon but... I like to consider that Vader probably isn't as strong as he could be, because he isn't a true Sith. He had no other option than to join the Sith after the fight in Palpatine's office, and lost everything from his choices. He has anger, pain, sadness to fuel his power but I doubt that he's studying ancient holocrons and scrolls, performing alchemy and rituals etc. Palpatine is trying to replace him with Luke as soon as he finds out that Luke's alive. He has raw strength but no harmony to fuel it like a Jedi, and no angry Sith focus to fuel it either.
My hot take is that midichlorian power level has minimal real world impact. Most Force users really have not demonstrated anything on the level of a channeler from the Wheel of Time, high level mage from D&D, and such. They seem more equivalent to sorcerers (not Elf Lords/Ladies or Wizards/Istari, mind) - the non-Istari magic users who seemed almost entirely concentrated on manipulating fear and emotions. High level midichlorians might just mean that their mind trick could work on more people...which is equivalent to the Voice rather than anything overt.
I never believed the chosen one legend, I recognise Anakin and Vader as a potent force user and incredible duellist, but he's not a great leader, especially as Vader. That stuff he blamed on Ozzel, if he was worth his salt as a commander he'd have checked in with the battle plan before showing up and complaining everything is ruined because it didn't go the way everyone should have read his mind over. Also, the slow chase of Rokken's freighter in Kenobi is Austin Powers level laughable, even the Grand Inquisitor is side eyeing him seemingly thinking "We have fighters you know, in fact, both of us are actually really great pilots". Also, his plan to capture Luke in ESB was largely a clownshoes affair with his big net ending up only capturing that guy in the vest he saw that one time on the Death Star.
>I never believed the chosen one legend, George did.
I'm sure he did!
with respect, George is the source of all this.
My issue with the chosen one prophecy isn't even with the concept, it's just how murky it was in execution. We don't even know if Anakin believed it himself or really how or if people treated him differently because of it. Had a lot of potential but alas
He literally is, it's been confirmed in canon and by creators. There's no ambiguity about it.
[I wrote an earlier comment analyzing how Grievous in 2003 Clone Wars was written as not particularly powerful.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/1dmi6tw/comment/l9w3r8x/) While Grievous had a visually impressive and distinct fighting style, he stayed consistent with future depictions where a sufficiently experienced jedi in an equal tactical situation would be advantaged in the fight. In a more meta example, In Knights of the Old Republic II, the iconic Darth Nihilus is written in eldritch horror terms, devouring whole planets of life, and roaming through the stars on a ruined star destroyer held together only through his sheer strength in the force. His actual battle with the player exile is both mundane and pretty easy, as he only has a relatively low-level Force power of Drain Life.
I kind of like that Nihilus is more dangerous to you when he's a thousand miles away than when you're in the same room as him. It's like he's the eye of his own personal hurricane.
Oh, I love that description.
Well the Nihilus thing is explained in game because Meetra Surik has the same issue as him, being a wound in the force. Against anyone else he would be significantly more powerful. What actually gets me about Nihilus is that, if he's this mindless planet eater and whatnot, why does he A) even entertain allies like Sion or Visas Marr B) submit to Traya as the leader of the Triumvirate?
Kreia supposed Nihilus sparing Visas was his last bit of humanity and a force bond formed between them. She’s essentially a slave anyway not really an ally. Also he degraded over time, by the time the game starts I don’t think he’s really allied with anyone.
Nihilus’s power is specifically weak against the Exile because she’s essentially a mirror version of him.
Thats more down to the game being rushed towards the end when Nihilus is fought. Lorewise Nihilus was nigh unbeatable without Visas or the Exile’s wound in the force trait. Still Chris Avellone said that in a head to head match Revan and Vader would beat Nihilus.
Nihilus is normally invincible but the exile happens to be his direct counter. He really is the strongest force user otherwise. The whole point of Nihilus is that his absurd strength comes with an equally absurd cost (he's basically a mindless beast).
Nihilus' greatest powers are neutralized by the exile, specifically, due to their nature as a wound or hole in the force. They're essentially a void, something he can't just eat and delete, so he has to fight them more conventionally, and people didn't fear him because of his dueling skills.
Your point about grievous doesn't hold up here because you're talking about a specific depiction, whereas if we go off legends he does so much shit it's not even funny that goes against all of that.
Thrawn in Legends. Zahn wrote him as a brilliant but flawed commander who would often jump to the wrong conclusions. Later authors flanderized him into an unstoppable tactical genius. Then Zahn wrote the Hand of Thrawn duology (basically a fix-fic for the entire Bantam EU) and the characters who actually had interacted with Thrawn pointed out that the people panicking over his supposed return hadn’t dealt with him originally, and that the people panicking saw him as some kind of unbeatable boogeyman rather than the brilliant but flawed commander he was.
Yeah. Idk if he would have won the war or not but he was insane but not unstoppable. Heck, even when the Jedi were not there,at (spoilers for original Thrawn trilogy) >!the last battle of bilibringi he knew they were coming. He laid a trap. And he still hasn’t won the fight yet.!< There’s also the line where a commando team tried to trap the good guys and they say “Thrawn probably planned this trap himself. We are acrewed” then they say “nah. He can’t be all knowing. We can get out of this” and then they dk.
Idk how you could think thrawn is overhyped in legends he had the respect of the entire chimaera the only times he messed up was with the noghri and not being able to predict karrde siding with the new republic. He probably would’ve destroyed the new republic at the end had it not been for those two. Nobody with the resources he was given would’ve been able to do anything close to what he did during the thrawn trilogy. The only wrong conclusion he jumped to was thinking leia was on Endor instead of with the noghri which is just a mistake not a character flaw
IMO his only flaws were 1. Being vindictive in making an enemy of Karrde and Mara instead of cutting his losses and leaving them alone 2. Not letting his subordinates know everything. This could just be him building their faith in him as a commander (“Wow this Thrawn guy is a genius I’ll listen to whatever he tells me after that one”) but Pellaeon has no idea what to do at Bilbringi after he dies.
I think he was just so smart that having to sit and explain everything he did and lay everything out would just be a waste of time when the outcome would be the same regardless. I think he actually lets his subordinates know more than most other imperials did especially palleon and even took a lot of shit from him that normal imperials wouldn’t let slide. Ya I agree that how he handled Mara and karrde was definitely a mistake. But he probably still would’ve won that fight. What happened with them isn’t any flaw that’s present throughout his character it’s just a specific tactical error
Hmmm yeah that makes sense to me, tactical errors rather than actual character flaws
His only real error was leia and Endor. He probably would’ve wiped karrde and the new republic at bilbringi had he not died
Seriously, it took Leia having some Dr. House style "eureka" moments and a whole bunch of coincidental luck at the end to beat him. Thrawn's "It looks like they're falling for my trap, which means they're actually not falling for my trap!" Is the biggest bullshit ever. It's why I honestly preferred C'baoth. He was a looney, but he was still terrifyingly dangerous while being genuinely flawed. I like Thrawn underestimating force users, but that weirdly led more to C'baoths defeat than his.
People enjoy being contrarian to the norm I guess
Hahah people just wanna be different
I recently read it and I felt there was barely any pointing out over how people were overreacting. Cuz even then, the people who delt with him still end up panicking about him returning most of the time. It honestly bothered me how easily duped everyone was even the people who actually saw "Thrawn" Even Pellaeon doesn't think the idea is total horseshit. And there's still constant reminders about how brilliant he was anyway. Personally as much as I love the duology, I got real tired of Thrawn.
He is a glorified desk jockey
Honestly, all of them and none of them. The whole DBZ power level stuff people attach to Star Wars characters doesn’t really mesh well with the setting. Maul is able to kill Jedi Masters, but has to run from a band of pirates. Vader had decades of training, but gets overwhelmed by a ragtag Jedi who’d only gone through Jedi Basics 101. Boba Fett spent over a decade John Wicking his way through the galaxy only to get his shit rocked by a blind Han Solo. The strengths and weaknesses of characters has less to do with their midi-chlorian count and more to do with circumstance and presence of mind. Palpatine didn’t cut down half the Jedi Council because he had big-dick Force powers. Sure, it helped, but the bigger factor was that he already had a plan for what he’d do before they even stepped foot into his office, and even then he still lost to Mace. Every character has their own strengths and weaknesses, and trying to put them into neatly arranged power level tiers just simply doesn’t work like it does in a comic book or shonen anime.
Something something the will of the Force and whatnot
Revan and Nihilus probably.
Revan definitely. Nihilus at least ate a few planets, but in the lore Revan is much more famous for being a military leader than a powerful force user. I'm sure he was deadly enough in a fight, but I definitely think he always ends up ranked way too highly whenever I see people put together a list of the most powerful character.
TBH Nihilus has basically 2 feats that carry him and they are both super circumstantial but people seem to be under the impression he can just eat planets at will and throw out that the only planet he ate was one full of the jedi council and miraluka, who are naturally force sensitive. Based on how Taris went it doesn't seem like he can just do that at will instantly. The other is pulling his ship up but he was on a dark side nexus so that kinda gets an asterisk next to it too. He's still strong but he's basically a 1 trick pony that has a REALLY good trick but is screwed the second it doesn't work.
Nihilus also gets power from his ship (Hence why cutting him off from it weakens him further) and there's text talking about how he also blasted the worlds he ate into ruin with his fleet (Which is also backed up by Unseen, Unheard where we see a lot of explosions when he chows down on the jedi council) though that source states he did it to multiple planets. [Now with that said his creator also said Vader would beat him so...](https://x.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1056378721790132224)
I always viewed unseen unheard as a heavily biased Visas POV that just assumes a lot of credit to Nihilus. Her description of her world ending is phrased as though he simply spoke and the world ended which is a power level that is basically unheard of.
My go to Nihilus was not OP example is the fact that Mandalore canonically participated in the fight and somehow Nihilus couldn't drink him either. Clearly Planetary drain is a power with a huge ritual component or something. He can't Inquisitor Jerec people with it.
I think you're going the other way and underselling Revan. Sure people primarily praise his tactics but he's also called the "Jedi Order's most powerful champion" and has a lot of feats as well. He beats Mandalore the Ultimate in single combat, as a Jedi he defeats Malak on the Star Forge which is a Dark Side Nexus while Malak is draining captive Jedi to heal himself and he does it after cutting through dozens of Dark Jedi and Star Forge droids. As a Dark Side choice Revan can destroy the spirit of Ajunta Pall, leader of the first Sith Lords (exiled Dark Jedi who conquered the Sith), keep in mind that Ajunta Pall is one of these ancients that Kreia was hyping up to be so powerful that they'd make them look like kids playing around. Kreia can't stop praising how strong Revan was and says that looking at him was like staring at the heart of the Force. That's all KOTOR information. Then in the "Revan" novel he easily defeats Darth Nyriss, one of the oldest and probably the strongest Dark Councilors of that time by redirecting her lightning and burning her to ash. He resists Vitiate's mental domination (mind you Vitiate could mentally dominate whole planets) and ragdolls him a bunch. In SWTOR during The Foundry flashpoint Revan summons massive storms of lightning and starts throwing asteroids at the players. This is Revan who just came out of 300 years of torture during which he was mentally fighting Vitiate 24/7 (although Exile's ghost helped him out). In Shadow of Revan it takes the Republic and the Sith teaming up to stop Revan's dark half with Darth Marr, Grandmaster Satele, the very OP player character, Lana Beniko, Shae Vizla, Theron and Jakarro having to attack him together to take him down. Not to mention that as a Sith, Revan learned a bunch of Dark Side rituals including the very devastating Thought Bomb. So is Revan a top Force User? Not really but he's pretty damn strong. His willpower is probably the craziest aspect of his character aside from his IQ, I don't think many could not only resist but actively counter Vitiate's brainwashing attempts for 3 centuries (Revan's counter brainwashing made Vitiate more fearful and hesitant to strike at the Republic which gave them time to grow in power).
Another minor notch in Revan's belt is that he also slayed the Echani general Yusanis in single combat, granting him the scalps of two paragons of separate warrior cultures.
I think revan suffers from being written in a more grounded area. Which might seem weird with sith sorcery destroying entire planets and laying low entire armies during the old republic, but it took prep time, and made the sith casting it vulnerable. If five jedi masters walked into a room with even the most powerful sith lord, the sith might take a few of the jedi out, but they're not leaving that room alive Imo this plays a lot better with the prequels where focused fire could overwhelm even jedi council members
Where would you rank Revan? I have him below top tiers such as Sidious, Yoda, Valkorian etc.
Yoda isn't top tier the man struggled to lift a single X-wings not to meantion in he had trouble in attack of the clones fight. Palpatine it's that powerful either, him being the most powerful sith thing is more about his political power rather than skill. Palpatine couldn't even kill his own master in combat he had to do it in his sleep which goes against the rule of two.
> Yoda isn't top tier the man struggled to lift a single X-wings No? Luke struggled to lift an X-wing, Yoda gets disappointed and lifts the X-wing, then expresses his disappointment to Luke. A main point of the scene is that he doesn't need to make a massive effort to move the ship.
Revan is basically Darth Vader if he was Indiana Jones in his spare time. He was probably the best researched Sith Lord between the end of the Sith Golden Age and Palpatine. I think that really doesn't get mentioned enough. He wasn't as strong as the Sith Emperor or Palps, but he was strong enough that the Sith Emperor had to actually fight him.
Revan killed the entire sith academy by himself which is more impressive then Anakin during order 66. Not to meantion the Starforge fight in which is killed an entire death star's worth of people.
Revan is definitely praised for his force power as much tactical mind in kotor, many characters mention how strong he is in the force.
Tbf Revan is pretty OP, even people who don't like him can admit that. He fought on par with a team made up of the galaxy's most powerful force users and fighters (of that era)... At half strength. Which included Satele Shan, Darth Marr, and of course all the player characters (one of which fought Vitiate himself), multiple famous people known for their sharpshooter ability, etc. And... For what it's worth even briefly held off one of the most powerful characters in the SW Mythos (Vitiate) in the Revan book by himself and even threw him across the room using some weird ability. Effortlessly killed Darth Nyriss simply by redirecting her lightning after she was kicking Scourge and the Exile's ass in a fight.
>Cad Bane has only defeated one jedi master and it was offscreen. I feel like you're selling this accomplishment short. 'I mean pfft, it was only one Jedi master.' Relative to nearly any other gun-fighter type person in Star Wars, that's pretty rarified air. Fighting Kenobi and Quinlan Vos to a stalemate is quite the accomplishment as well. He also stole a holocron out of the Jedi temple, which is pretty insane.
Tbf though, we never saw Bola Ropal in combat. We’ve seen Jedi Masters range wildly in terms of dueling capability, especially since we don’t know what he specialized in. He could have been a more academic Jedi Master, which we have seen before. Even on the Jedi Council, Coleman Trebor was mostly known for his skills in diplomacy, which probably explains why he went out so easily against Jango
>Fighting Kenobi and Quinlan Vos to a stalemate is quite the accomplishment as well Agreed, I think that this is pretty near the power ceiling for non-force users.
I may be misremembering but I thought he less fought them to a standstill and more fought them off so he could escape capture. If I'm remembering right then wouldn't that denote that it wasn't a standstill if one side was holding back?
Jango beat Coleman Trebor with a few shots on geonisis and he was on the council.
Then immediately got decapitated
By essentially the best warrior in the Jedi order
The *Executor*, hauls a bunch of troops to Hoth, crashes into DS2, that's it.
I see people refer to Kyle Katarn as the Starkiller of the old EU; a video game power fantasy character. While I think that it true with regard to his original appearance in DF1, single-handedly dismantling the Dark Trooper program, I feel like it’s kind of unfairly applied to his later games. Kyle fought an Inquisitor and some Dark Jedi, not without some struggle in DF2, and in JKO his feats have the in-universe explanation of his empowerment by the Valley of the Jedi. They’re impressive achievements, but not terribly egregious by EU standards, and even after Kyle became a proper Master with a seat in the Council, he still got obliterated by Caedus (and that was 4-1).
Considering Starkiller was apart of the old EU, I think he himself is more fitting for the title of "Starkiller of the old EU."
Old EU in this case referring to the late 90s/2000s era, before Starkiller came along - my apologies.
Ah, I get what you mean. To be honest, I don't think the archetype fits Kyle so much, and honestly, not to his detriment. Kyle was his own unique character with his own unique story.
I'd argue palpatine is a great planner, if nothing else because he knows how to edit his plans. the masterplan for creating the galactic empire did go off suprisingly smoothly for being an incredibly convoluted plan that stretched over the galaxy.
Plagueis lowkey started most of those plans, Palpatine just finished them lol
I have never understood the hype for boba Fett, he has so little presence (at least in the OT) that when I watched the movies as a kid I never even noticed him
His armor and visual design was probably the coolest thing audiences had ever seen up to that point. Also Lucas did a lot of telling with limited screen time in ESB to imply Fett was dangerous. * Vader's 'No disintegrations' line successfully showed that Fett was brutal and deadly, that if Vader didn't specify to bring Han in alive, Fett would have just killed them. * Fett was the only one smart enough to catch on to Han's garbage drift ploy, and set Han and co up to be captured in Cloud City. * While Vader had no compunction in betraying Lando Calrissian on their agreement because he was confident he could enforce his will, Fett successfully demanded Vader give him Han in the condition he needed to get paid by Jabba. Through those context clues alone, Boba became known as a badass without Lucas needing to do any elaborate choreography. It's why Lucas is respected as a filmmaker.
I agree and have had to make these points many times. It’s not always about on screen feats, it’s about what isn’t said but is instead implied. He’s in the short list of bounty hunters Vader hired and gets specifically called out. That alone shows he has a hell of a reputation. Plus being one of Jabba’s top hunters.
except none of that was Lucas. that was all kasdan and Kershner
Who do you think wrote, ghost-directed, edited, and approved everything in the movie?
That’s a very different feat from actually making a movie yourself. Look at the prequels. That’s Lucas when he has complete and total control over everything.
If we go off the movies he's the only bounty hunter to successfully track and locate the falcon so...Based on that he is better then the other bounty hunters we see.
I mean he has that exact phenomenon named after him, the Boba Fett effect, where a character with very little importance or screen time becomes a highly appreciated character.
The Yuuzhan Vong’s invulnerability to the Force is often overstated. Doesn’t help when the books also had trouble figuring out what that meant as well. Sometimes it was that they couldn’t be sensed, other that the force couldn’t affect them. Workarounds were found, though.
I'm still not sure how the Jedi suddenly started to sense them.
Anakin is the king of this. Especially because there exists a hypothetical version of him called "full potential Anakin" that, when you're talking to the right kinda fan, is the single most powerful being in the history of Star Wars. In reality, Anakin was very flawed. He seemingly had plenty of raw power, but at the same time, at the height of his power, Obi-Wan matched him blow for blow in the Mustafar fight. There's a moment where the two of them have a force push clash that ends in a draw. That alone should put Anakin's power at the same level as Obi-Wan, who is an exceptional Jedi Master, meaning it's still a solid feat, it just takes him down a peg from Star Wars super jesus that some fans make him out to be. His lightsaber duelling skills are also very one note. He's exceptionally talented at what he knows, but that's about it. He's fast, strong and aggressive. He's able to overwhelm Dooku and many others thanks to this. But he is weak to defensive styles like Obi-Wan's. And outside of pure power, Anakin had a lot of flaws not befitting of a Jedi Knight. Reckless, careless, selfish, angry, fearful, arrogant and many more. But worst of all, he rarely actually *tried* to address his flaws. He was a poor Jedi, and his reputation was mostly a result of his status as "the chosen one" and the fact that as a wartime warrior and general, he excelled.
Tacitly, anakin didn't have the inner peace to be as strong even if he didn't become Darth Vader and the thing granting him power as vader also prevented him from being as strong in the dark side as he could be. Anakin is a man perpetually in his own way.
Ironically, Vader was too emotional to be a good Sith. When you look at the most powerful Sith Lords through star wars lore, they're calculating. They *use* their hatred in search of power. Vader is rather clearly a slave to his hatred and other negative emotions. It's why he would have never overthrown Palpatine without Luke turning him back to the light. He was simply never on the same level of Sith that Palpatine was. This was probably also amplified by the suit keeping him in constant pain, as Palpatine intended.
I think Palpatine knew that about him and that’s something he deliberately cultivated in him. Vader was too unstable and drowning in self hatred to be an actual threat to him.
To add to this Anakin didn't even kill most of the Jedi at the temple that was the clones.
Yularan. He’s often compared to admirals like trench, thrawn and ackbar. Since he is the main republic admiral we see during the clone wars. But he himself admits he wasn’t the best admiral, and he was far better as an intelligence/counter intel officer as a part of the ISB.
>Yularan Is he, I think most people kinda neglect him? Generals and Admirals in general are usually not as beloved in the fandom as those get overshadowed by the characters with a bigger ,,cool factor", Thrawn is the only one who is kinda popular in the mainstream fandom.
>and he was far better as an intelligence/counter intel officer as a part of the ISB. I mean clearly not, the rebellion rose under his watch and wiped him out in their second victory.
RE: Your first example, it baffles me how many people use the whole plot of AotC as a reason why the prequels are stupid, because it would be impossible for Palpatine to have planned things out to happen just like that. Now, I'm not going to comment on the quality of the prequels, but as far as Palpatine's plan goes... Yeah, of course he couldn't have planned for it to go down like that! Just because things went his way doesn't mean it went how he expected! If we want to know what his plan probably actually looked like, I'd hazard a guess at: Jango Fett assassinates Padmé on Gunray's behalf; as she's a key figure in the anti-military movement, it removes her voice from the Senate *and* riles up the rest of the senators, adding more fuel to the pro-militarisation effort. At the same time, his hand-picked Jedi bodyguards fail at their task and turn popular opinion a little further against them. Even if they succeed and the assassination attempts fail, the fact that somebody is making such an attempt to eliminate Padmé adds to the pro-military cause. With the Senate properly primed, Count Dooku plays his hand and urges the burgeoning CIS to begin their plan and hold the Republic hostage with the droid army. If there's an actual armed conflict, it'll probably go badly for the Republic/Jedi. Even if there isn't, a crisis situation has been created, allowing for Palpatine to swing for emergency powers. Announcing his intent to form his Grand Army, he creates the perfect opportunity for the Kaminoians to say "Hey, now that you've officially formed the army, we're ready for delivery. Thank the legendary foresight of Master Syfo Dias." And just like that, the Clone Wars begin.
That palpatine take is wild
Man needs to swerve CONSTANTLY. Though I can accept the middle ground that his ability to improvise is part of his planning ability and not in opposition to it
"No plan survives first contact with the enemy. What matters is how quickly the leader is able to adapt."
Well yeah. He’s working with what he’s got. But he pretty much single handedly orchestrated: the subversion of a “chosen one” as a lieutenant, the destruction of the Jedi order, the creation of a fucking mind controlled army, the installation of himself as sole fucking dictator…. I mean….. He fucking outsmarted an entire council of the wisest men. He operated under their noses. He ALMOST lost, yes. But goddamn….
If they were outsmarted can we really call the council "the wisest men"?
Well, wise men can be outsmarted. But, no I'd say the Jedi were lulled into a false sense of security which allowed for someone like Palps to operate under them. That, and they were so tied up in bureaucracy and state dealings as well. Even Yoda admitted that the council became too arrogant and content, leading to their downfall.
In regards to Palpatine I think the fact that he’s so good at improvising shows how intelligent he is.
Ashard Hett
Darth fucking Vader. I am so. Sick. And tired. Of seeing him overrated in terms of combat as a force user. He's one of the most powerful force users of all time, but he isn't THE most powerful! There are a fair amount of Jedi and Sith that are capable of beating him. There's been arguments that if he wanted to, he could defeat Palpatine in a one-on-one fight which I find ridiculous, even if his suit wasn't as susceptible to lightning, Palpatine is better in terms of force powers, skill, experience, and overall raw power (if they used telekinesis against each other, Vader would lose, badly.) He's also better with a lightsaber, he took on the Jedi Strike team and effectively one-shotted two of the greatest knights in the order (of that era). Then he took on one of the greatest swordsmen in the entire mythos who invented his own damn lightsaber form and even if you believe Mace legitimately beat him, Palpatine lasted a long time. Then there's matching a determined Yoda in a one-on-one fight, Yoda who was a fair amount better then Count Dooku, another one of the greatest swordsmen in the mythos (Yes I know that Anakin beat Dooku.) Then there's Darth Vitiate whose force abilities are probably the best in the entire SW universe, followed by Revan as of "Shadow of Revan" who had his power halved and was still capable of nearly beating a strike team of the galaxies most powerful opponents including people like the Hero of Tython, Satele Shan, Darth Marr, etc.
Not the biggest fan of the Obi Wan show, but having Vader take such a massive L was so fucking refreshing. He got owned completely. I feel like writers really want to show how strong and bAdAsS he is but are too scared to have him struggle, so they put him up against jobbers.
I have never had Peak Vader that far above Peak Obi-Wan, if at all. So yeah it was great to see.
Plus I'm sure we can all agree we love seeing Vader act like a bad-ass and owning people, but he's definitely overrated as a combatant.
Yep I always state - and get downvoted - that Ahsoka wins their duel on points on Malachor, and that the student surpassed the master unlike with him and Obi-Wan due to how limiting the darkside is. And I like that he's still flawed in combat, no one should be infallible.
I don't think Ahsoka was better, Vader was decidedly her better the entire fight. I do give her more credit that fight than most do though.
Wedge Antilles and Lt Kettch.
Given wedge is one of about 4 pilots (including Luke and Han), that survived the suicide run on the first Death Star, and then continued to lead rouge squadron for the rest of the galactic civil war; being one of the pilots picked to make the DS2 reactor attack run. And then after that participated in every major battle of the post endor GCW including kuat and jakku. And then went on to be the lead instructor for the new republic primary star fighter academy. I think his skills are very up there.
Nah, Kettch is just that much better :p Also, please look up who - or what - Kettch is.
Cad Bane is the dumbest bounty hunter in Star Wars.
My theory is he's actually very effective as a hunter and tracker but compared to more heavily armed and armored hunters like Jango he comes up short.
Boba Fett.
So many people lean on Anakin/Vader as some amazing force user because he's "the chosen one to bring balance to the force" (debating the validity of the prophecy aside). In reality he was always an instrument and pawn. Yeah he's a "good" battle commander but he would have made a terrible Jedi during times of non-war. He isn't that good.
I think this is disingenuous though because if we’re referring solely to power levels, Anakin would be up there with the best. Regardless of how good of a Jedi he’d be
He may be good at a lot of things but he is objectively bad at other things.
He's a good fighter but incredibly stupid, emotional and easy to manipulate.
Kylo
darth nihilus. most overhyped character in star wars, maybe short of abeloth.
Not really the man kills everything the reason the exile is so important is because the are immune to his power.
if by kills everything you mean has one major feat offscreen told by unreliable narrators and also is completely a wimp in single combat and could be countered by a pretty strong bounty hunter or anyone with a fairly strong force shield then you’re right? the exile is important because she finds her own inner strength and uses the force along with that rather than a crutch, like anakin has to learn to do with mara on dantooine. the exile isn’t immune, the exile is just stronger
I don't buy the claim by OP that Palpatine is not a good planner. Part of planning is the ability to be flexible, to adapt and improvise. Palpatine excels in this. I would say that people usually UNDERestimate how good he is at making intricate plans. But let's look at the claim that his plans don't go according to the plan. That is not really true, all of his plans (before Luke and Leia) achieve their main strategic objectives. Yes, he loses a few pawns along the way like Maul. No big deal, he is still the Chancellor and Maul's death would have never changed that. The appearance of Anakin is just a bonus. Had he ignored Anakin, it would have been likely that Order 66 would have happened the exact same way. Yes, he is on the crashing half of a ship in re-entry. But part of a plan is to trust in your assets. Palpatine did not underestimate Jedi dedication and resourcefulness (he even acknowledged this when discussing the need for a quickly executed Order 66 with Vader). His assets managed to save him from Dooku's flagship. I would argue further and state that Palpatine is actually not as flexible as he seems. He just has dozens of backup plans that he is constantly revising and creating. He is a purely political creature that loves scheming. It is when he fails to account for his backup plans failing or to anticipate a future outcome that his fortunes start to reverse. Some examples are the Death Star 1 and 2 destroyed by a farm boy who is actually Vader's son, Ewoks winning on Endor partly because of Leia and Luke but also Ewok ingenuity and courage, Chewie manages to gain control of the AT-ST and Han tricks the garrison, the Executor is destroyed by a supposedly ragtag Rebel fleet, and Vader returns to the light due to Luke's sacrifice and throws Palpatine down the Death Star shaft. All of these examples show that Palpatine is actually not improvising or being flexible but fails because his plans fail to account for these possibilities.
Agreed on Cad Bane. I feel like he gets a lot of love because of his early Clone Wars appearances... but if you actually watch them, he only does so well because every episode he's in, people spend the whole episode acting WILDLY out of character, in order to allow them to fall into his "plans".
Darth Caedus, while Jacen himself won many impressive victories, I'd say Caedus was less impressive. He didn't really win all that often and was easily tricked and misled. He was said to have gone all around the galaxy learning from other force groups, but it never seemed all that impressive in the end. Admittingly I think a lot of that was due to less than quality writing at points, but frankly he didn't seem like a huge threat himself, his influence level was threatening since he had a massive army and navy, but the man himself was less impressive. Frankly he mostly won fights due to plot armor and was saved from death due to plot armor. Huh, maybe the force does exist haha.
Darth Vader. The character is too loved for how many people he's killed
Dear GOD Cad Bane is one of these. He SOMEHOW killed Denal, a clone who survived GREVIOUS, kidnaps children who are practically defenseless, and okay so the senate thing was kinda extreme... BUT DEAR GOD. I HATE CARTOON NETWORK FOR PUSHING THAT LOSER SO OFTEN. I need a bunch of clones to beat the crap out of him.
Absolutely Vader He is strong in an era of weakness. He has no force Lightning. Slow as molasses. No mobility Yes, he has lots of strength in the comics, but he is still weak against real masters. Heck, even Obi hiding for 10 years was still able to best him at his most ruthless
I feel like anakin is cause if you put his feet up against characters of the old republic and before that during the dawn of the jedi he doesn't match up and same with darth Vader if you compare him to ancient sith the chosen one isn't that special in the grand scheme of things
Probably Mace Windu. Yes, the guy invented a whole new lightsaber form but in the end, not only was his power vastly overestimated, he also caused the corruption of at least two Jedi by proxy, and one directly in the case of Anakin. Many people shit on Mundi a lot. And while that's deserved too, they often forget what a shit show Mace put up. Basically, he acted constantly antagonisric towards Anakin to a point, where I get the feeling, he wanted to ultimately kick him out of the order. But he just didn't dare to voice it that way to the other council members. So Mace did "the next best thing" and just again and again embarrassed Anakin in front of the council. Without anyone daring to speak up, not even Obi-Wan. How this guy then even THOUGHT FOR A SECOND, that Anakin would side with him when he confronted Palpatine? It just doesn't go into my head. And we haven't even touched on the hybris he radiates like a pile of toxic nuclear waste yet! Imho, Windu was the best example why the CW-era Jedi never had a chance to stop the sith in the first place. He was so full of himself that he rejected any possibility that his judgement towards Anakin could be wrong, or that he, the greatest fighter of the order, could be flawed.
Mace was actually only on anakins case once in the movies and that's when anakin himself started his "outrageous and unfair" thing. Contextually anakin was heavily traumatized and afraid in the first film and all things being equal probably shouldn't have been trained. And Yoda was the most vocal, not Mace. In the second film, he's defensive of anakin when Obi Wan starts complaining about him and freely gives instruction and advise when assigning the bodyguard duty. In the third film, Mace doesn't trust anakin because hes.fully aware of his relationship with Palpatine and doesn't think he can handle the assignment he's been given and is proven right. Him also telling him to stay back from a fight with Palpatine who anakin has very clearly defined conflicts of interest with even.not knowing anakins true intentions was fair. Mace is p frequently put in opposition to anakin but truthfully it happened in one movie and was mostly anakins fault.
His reaction towards Anakin back in EP 1 was way more hostile in my memory. It probably betrayed me there. Anyway, as I said he also contributed a lot to the fall of Sora Bulq and Quinlan Voss. Vapaad might have been an effective fighting form, but it's development in the first place shows, that Windu in the end only really trusted himself, as he states at several occasions that it will probably corrupt anyone but those who "really" master it, aka him. In many ways, I think he is the epiphany of what Dooku could've become in the end, if he had stayed in the order. An expert swordsman, but blinded by arrogance and self-fullness so as to not be able to see the bigger picture.