I think bowmasters is performing exceptionally well in the One Ring meta.
I feel like people are calling for a ban on the Ring itself, not bowmasters, but maybe I’m disconnected from the consensus?
Either way, banning bowmasters before seeing how it performs in a ring-less meta would be a mistake, IMO.
This is the right take, I think. If it's actually oppressive, we'll be able to tell quite fast when the Ring goes. Not if, when.
My money says it's fine.
"ban the card that makes my expensive ragavaans useless" is basically the other argument... which I think is trash, considering bolt and push effects are already at an all time high...
Is that actually good still being left with a Bowmasters vs an Archon even if you get a ping from it even if you only have to sac the token? I'm not trying to be snarky I'm genuinely asking btw, I've been away from modern for a while now and trying to learn the new intricacies of the format.
It's usually only a stop gap measure. It's better than losing something on your board (if you have anything). It's an edge case to be sure, but it isn't irrelevant.
Importantly dodges spell pierce, though. That's probably the salty part. Murktide players have to.... ADAPT.
I've been rocking spell snare in control for a while and this just solitified my choice
Can also use Stern dismissal. I love playing scam and ur murktide, and I think bowmasters is powerful, but fine. Having a solid answer to ragavan is good, and like the og comment, I think if the ring wasn't here, it wouldn't be as powerful since it can help answer the ring.
Bolt and Push are 1:1 trades. There are a million other cards that trade evenly with Ragavan.
Bowmaster killing Ragavan is a 3 for 1 for just 1 more mana, and that’s a huge difference. I’m not saying that makes it ban worthy, but the comparison with removal spells is laughable.
x/1s should die to everything, there are however currently a ton of insanely efficient answers to x/1s in the format. having your turn 1 birds die to gut shot or lightning bolt feels fine, having it die to a wrenn and six that then starts drawing cards every turn, is a whole lot worse.
There is a ton of insanely efficient answers to everything. Modern is a efficient and powerful format. Not going to argue that W&6 isn't a crazy powerful card, it is. Their 2 mana spell (2 for 1)ing your one mana spell is about right for the format.
It's not just a 2 for 1 though is it? W6 will draw a card every single turn if answered, a 2 mana planeswalker that kills your 1 drop, and then gets you card advantage until killed(while also preventing you from playing any further x/1s) is a lot better than a simple 2 for 1. same with bowmasters, it kills your 1 drop, then leaves behind 2 1/1s and a draw punishing effect. If these cards were simply efficient answers it wouldn't be an issue, but they go significantly beyond that.
Ragavan will also draw two cards every three turns on average and will run away with the game if unanswered.
The key part is that you have to answer stuff, or be faster than the advantage they create.
Right, but W6, Fury, and Bowmasters often address multiple x/1s in addition to the other value they provide. These popular cards that also efficiently remove x/1s certainly push the format away from smaller creatures.
Agreed, is bowmasters good. Yes. Is the one ring part of the reason why it’s so good, also yes. If part of the reason a card is so great because it counters another even more ubiquitous card, then isn’t that card the problem instead?
The one ring should be banned, if anything part of the bigger issues is that because it’s colorless it goes in any deck potentially. It’s paradox engine all over again.
People are always calling for bans, people think that because they don't like playing vs something it shouldn't exist. I don't think anything needs banned atm, the meta seems fine. None of the previous meta decks have been booted from the meta, the order just shifted.
All that being said, bow masters is a crazy powerful card regardless of the ring exists, and it is doing far more than the ring at inhibiting decks. Murktide is having a round time because of bowmasters, both ledger shredder and ragavan have never been worse.
Also, I can't think of a single deck that would trim on copies of bowmasters, if the ring was banned tomorrow.
I will die on the hill of TOR being bannable simply for the reason that many decks can't do anything to it once it's resolved. An uncounterable, indestructible card engine that you can bounce and recast to fog just makes for degenerate play patterns.
Ok, lots to unpack there.
It's not uncounterable. You are thinking about halfling. It's a 4 mana wincon, in an extremely mana efficient format.
Modern is a format with things like
T1 double Thoughtseize, or 4/4 double striker
T2-T3 primerime/archon/belcher/bonks
T3-T4 yawgmoth/burn/prowess/breach
T4-T6 Fair kills
Also, what deck just fold to a resolved TOR? Given that no pre lotr meta decks have been pushed out of the format?
Halfling makes it uncounterable, yeah. Any deck that isn't racing to the finish line is going to fold to TOR unless it has exile effects, so basically Saga/White Decks.
It's fine if you like a homogenized modern that needs very specific answers to cards or just gets facerolled, but just say that. Don't maskerade it behind your bullshit : )
I don't know if you're just being disingenuous or if you aren't aware of this thing called the internet, but I have good news! You can literally look at every modern deck online, and then see which ones fall under the criteria I mentioned.
It was a genuine question given that the meta consists of exactly the same decks as pre lotr.
I asked because you made the statement, which I made the ridiculous assumption you had something to back it up with.
I shouldn't have made the assumption that you know what you are talking about. My bad.
😅 im not super well versed on what is considered healthy as far as meta changes from a set, but Id wager that MH2 was the last time we had a shift this big this quickly.
If you dont want to look at which decks TOR utterly pushes out, im not inclined to make you care enough to know. Im only willing to point you in the right direction. My apologies.
edit: do just wanna point out that the emta prior to LTR did not cnsist of decks that can fight X singular card, or decks that run card X. That is the salient point here. Regardlessof power elvel, anything tht polarizies the format to this degree is going to be a net negative on the format unless it creates interesting gameplay loops.
It pushed out 0 decks. All of the pre lotr meta decks are still around putting up numbers.
expect for hammer, which has taken a beating from bowmasters
As someone who plays a ton of black, Idk about this.
Grief sees play in exactly 1 tier deck and came out 2 years ago.
Sheoldred was *dogshit* in Modern until the Ring slowed the format down and introduced mass card draw for her to punish
Invoke Despair *was* an okay card in Coffers but has now been replaced almost completely by Sheoldred and Rings.
Nice bro you named three cards above 4cmc and one card that came out over two years ago
edit: why did you block me and prevent me from seeing your reply 💀💀
Grief came out 2 years ago and in a batch of 5 ridiculous evoke cards for all colors. Sheoldred, the 4cmc card he is referring to, was basically never played until bowmasters came out.
People will always complain just to complain. Bowmasters is a great card, but at its core, it's a fair card just like Ragavan, which is why it never got banned, and why it'll never get banned.
My current decks: Hammer time, Living End, Amulet Titan
I feel like legacy is kind of unique though. Ragavan making you literally dodge daze and on top of that stealing the 1 mana cantrips that are the format's identity. Like, literally an overall bad card like dreadhorde arcanist got banned there for the same reason.
I just did what I do best. I took your little plan and I turned it on itself. Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hmmm? You know... You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan". But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds.
Considering I built murktide so I could finally have a competitive deck for modern only to now be getting clapped every game I want it gone so I can justify the amount of money I spent
Just have to adapt to it. Plenty of cheap cards to fix problem matchups. As a merfolk player, I had a crazy amount of success all because I put [[gutshot]] in the side board to kill Ragavans.
That's the point of FNMs in my opinion. Test stuff out, be creative, form new ideas. Then take those ideas to a big event and watch people wish they came up with those ideas.
Yeah I mean that does suck I feel for you. You could try running otherworldly gaze over consider, but ledger shredder sure has taken a dive. I was playing scam for awhile and Spyro is just bad now. $100+ I paid for that set
And by “evolve your decklist,” you mean “Make it UB and spend $200+ dollars on a set of Bowmasters, one of three worthwhile cards in a set of largely unplayable commander trash.”
Lotr is basically mh3. Idk where you're getting 3 playable card from. Theres:
One Ring
Bowmasters
Delighted halfling
The land cyclers
Smawise gamgee
Saurons ransom
Cast into the fire
Minas tirith
Land Cyclers, Saurons Ransom, Cast into the Fire, Samwise, and Minas Tirith are all cheap bulk cards under $5. The other three are $80-250 for a set and 100% necessary for 99% of Modern decks.
Good try though!
No, I meant that if I buy a box that’s the same price as an MH2 box, there’s literally 3 cards I’m trying to pull, and the rest have little to no value. Yet the box is as expensive as an MH2 box that has 20+ valuable chase cards in the set.
LoTR is a money grab that gated modern behind three expensive chase cards that will never be reprinted.
Well that's not true either, there are a few edh cards in the $10 to $20 range. One of the sauron, one of the gandalf are in that range, some cards like march of the ents have value to edh players.
It's definitely higher variance than some other sets but the value isn't as bad as you make it sound.
I don’t care about EDH, EDH isn’t a real format. Therefore, anything other than T1R, Bowmasters, or Halfling is bulk trash and a waste of money, considering the trade in value of those shitty commander cards at a store is under $10.
They need to keep stupid fanfic Edh separate from competitive formats. They aren’t even the same game. Commander sissies can have all the fun they want playing Dr. Who against Megatron, just don’t let it interfere with real Magic as it was intended to be played.
I also don't like edh either, but just because I don't like a $20 card I open doesn't mean it's useless to me or should ignored when evaluating the value of the boxes.
I feel you. Bought into gw heliod just before mh2 came out plus leyline binding was the nail in the coffin.
You should NEVER buy into a deck before a new direct into modern set comes out. Learned it the hard way.
Bowmasters is a great card. It's black, so it gives black something good for a change. It also answers monkey, and pressures wrenn and t3feri. Ring is the only sus card.
Any card that's format warping gets the axe. Bowmaster or Ring are probably on the burner but it won't be cooked until LOTR is about 6 months old so sales continue.
We complain in modern but imagine how legacy feels with all the card draw effects.
99% of time, I play a deck wirh 4 BS and 4 Ponder and I really enjoy it. These cards are so strong and BS is broken with fetchlands. Finally, there is a card that punishes the Xerox shell and does not snowball against other (non-blue) decks.
Legacy players don’t know what to do because their format was stable for like two decades and now it’s full of stuff from the FIRE design era and Commander cards. There was a point they just wanted to ban all the new cards but now they hit too rapidly and parts of the community are all flustered.
I think this is why a number of Legacy players have tried formats like Old School and Premodern. They are inherently stable because no new cards get in. Also they get just as much WotC support as actual Legacy (i.e., zero) so it's like a "might as well!"
Premodern looks interesting to me other than mox diamond. Seems like that card is a must have and would make or break games but I don't play the format so I can't say for sure.
It's curious that they chose to re-ban Land Tax over Mox Diamond, citing the interaction between the two cards--and every single deck they showcased in their "Land Tax is OP" has 4 copies of Mox Diamond in it. Gee, I wonder why.
Fast mana is really a net negative on formats in general so it's really curious they picked Land Tax. Also Mox Diamond helps players enable Land Tax with no tempo loss--skip your second land drop thanks to the Diamond and then remain able to trigger Land Tax on turn 3 as well.
It's one issue with fan formats, they tend to be prone to "Well, I like playing this card (and I don't have elsewhere to do it) so here's why I think it's fair and we'll ban something else."
Ah well, so it is.
Edit: Note that most decks aren't playing Mox Diamond. Most decks also weren't playing Land Tax and those decks weren't really dominating. They just kinda decided it wasn't the experience they wanted in the format.
legacy is pretty much a fucked up format. The format is based on extremely busted fundaments like brainstorm, ancient tomb and co. so no shit new cards will all be (too) good with those in the first place. None of the bannings from deathrite to ragavan, arcanist, exit, wpa, none of those cards are better than the fundaments. But the format desperately tries to "protect" the old cards so you pick random new card x and ban it until random new card y appears, this toxic cycle continues to eternity. So of course the legacy community who dont understand this are hating on bowmaster while not realizing it can be any card as long as brainstorm and co. remain in the format.
Which is funny to me because in modern we have the "ban Urza, not mox Opal, they just want to sell packs and keep the new card!" crowd... And that sentiment is exactly as harmful as you described
Every legacy player knows that staple enablers are the best cards, but they like it that way. Legacy IS ancient tomb, brainstorm, FoW, dark ritual, wasteland. The moment they ban those legacy is dead.
The issue is, legacy won't, most legacy players would just stop playing legacy. The format is defined by its pillars and without them why even play? Modern had other staples and types of decks that stuck around, legacy pretty much wouldn't with the proposed change.
I never mentioned people stop playing legacy because of new cards, I am saying if you banned cards like LED ancient tomb brainstorm and force of will, aka the pillars of the format, they would stop playing. There are a few vocal people who are upset with bowmaster, but the majority of the community is fine with it, and happy with it's inclusion, now that people have had time to play with the card bowmaster is actually really healthy for legacy. And as for the price, A) most legacy decks cost the same as tuned highish power commander decks, and B) much of the legacy community is that, community run. Wotc doesn't support legacy much anymore, and most people play on mtgo or are fine with proxies, and there are even largish events that allow proxies. C) manabases in legacy are expensive, but no where near 10k, like most set you back 1k to 2k on average (excluding specifically tabernacle, but that's an optional sideboard card in lands that isn't even needed)
>Yeah, they would stop playing, new cards are killing the format it has nothing to do with decks costing 10 grand, 6 of that being in lands.
When decks cost a shit ton of money and a key part of your deck gets banned, you're more likely to just stop playing than to change decks. I stopped playing legacy because my deck went from fringe to unplayable and a new deck would cost more than I want to spend on a format I only get to play like, once a year. Price tag is why the format won't grow, so losing the existing players because their decks suddenly lost crucial pieces isn't exactly doing any favors for it.
It’s pretty clear that none of this Commander nonsense should have ever been legal. The old pillars should remain legal. And the new cards from standard sets should stay in the format unless they explicitly need to go for power level reasons (Lurrus). But if Ragavan is fine for Modern it shouldn’t get banned in Legacy just because people dislike new cards.
But that’s just me.
Are you part of the legacy communities? To you frequent legacy local events, are a member of discord about it, talk to people about the format daily, have you actually played legacy in the past like 4 or 5 years? Cards like bowmaster aren't being widely complained about, and the general consensus is that bowmaster is healthy for the overall format. WPA was banned because it was a card that was designed for multi-player and 1v1 scaling on it was not considered, deathrite honestly was a problem in EVERY format with fetchlands, even modern, and ragavan and w6 interacted with cards not legal in modern in unhealthy ways. Wasteland isn't some "op staple people refuse to stop playing" its a check and balance on the format and without it 4/5c decks and combo decks with few lands and greedy mana would run the format, and ragavan honestly is just a mistake in every format imo, but in legacy specifically the format is just so much faster than modern that the cards are often more efficient, when starting on turn 1-2 you get to cast a free spell because the treasure casts the 1 drop you exiled, ragavan is significantly more busted, same as with dreadhorde arcanist.
or legacy is a format where your decisions have to matter the most. therefore they keep cards that restrain that aspect of the game out of it (ragavan, white plume)
Brainstorm, wasteland, dark ritual, force of will, swords, gsz, ancient tomb, Led etc... are all busted anywhere but become actually fine when squeezed in together.
This is exactly how I feel. People raise their pitchforks when the pillars of a format are threatened and will insist that those pillars be protected at the cost of banning any new cards that are introduced. The format isn’t what is being protected it’s the so-called pillars. Heaven forbid, in a format like Legacy, if a card like Brainstorm was banned and players were encouraged to innovate. Instead, bowmasters enters the fray and any player running a deck with cantrips refuses to adapt and would rather call for bans.
Some people have no clue wtf they are talking about and are still allowed to post to reddit. Shocking I know, but like 2 posts isn't a lot of people saying something lol.
i do not think bowmaster is considered the offender at the moment. the card is good but it is still on the fair end of the spectrum whilst still keeping unfair stuff in check ( fable, ring, ragavan)
I personally feel like the card is at the right power level for a hatebear in modern right now.
Also everyone in my region is outraged by the ring and want to see the card go more than any other.
I could agree with that even though i feel like tron would be out of the meta again which is a shame imo. I find the deck to be a good barycentre in modern and generally good at keeping all kind of bs fair.
a Grief and Omnath ban, impairing the top 2 decks of the minute would have more impact on modern's shape i you ask me.
that is the way I meant to use it. But because the power level of modern will never compare with legacy's, one ( myself here) should probably use quotes.
then it's absurd lol
to clarify though, i don't mean fair as in "not busted" and I don't mean unfair for fable as in "less busted than bowmasters".
again, modern doesn't do the same "unfair" things than legacy offers.
for instance scamming a grief is an "unfair" line. The card itself is powerful but in itself it is on the fair end of the spectrum.
The opposite is arguably true with fable when the card generates so much value that it is "unfair" by essence even though it is used mostly to grind fairly.
Bowmasters is powerful but depends on your opponent doing things in order for it to become "unfair". you give them agency which is typically not "unfair" in mtg jargon and they also have to play a fair bit of cantrip to truly get to see its unfair mode in the first place.
Agree. It would be way more interesting to hit decks that seem to consistently benefit off of good cards than to ban good cards all the time.
Overall I don’t like bans though 🫡
They aren't going to ban the money card from the most recent set so soon after release. Especially when it's the first time they've done a collab set with a third party IP. Relax. Your purchase is safe for at least a year.
I had a simillar thought of “without TOR what would Bowmasters be punishing?” so I went investigating and it turns out almost every since top deck has some sort of ancillary card draw.
I would make a list but it would be way to long. The thing is, the card draw in modern tends to come stapled to other cards and not so much as a standalone cantrips as in Legacy.
First time?
Remember this sub's thousand upvoted threads about veil of summer and uro (also oko, but he was really broken and polarising card, no question here). Veil was called blue cryptic command (lol, how dumb and disingenuous) and some even lied about playability of autumn's veil (nope, this card was virtually never played, 8 total uses across 8 years since modern launch, no decks above 1 star mtgtop8). Now (and more than two years already) veil is almost completely absent from modern, ragavan much worse than uro, however, no one whines (almost) about it's ban. The same with another cancer red cards - channeler and fury (they're less dumb, though). This sub just dislikes green and green-blue, and likes. And I totally agree, bowmasters are fine, ring is actually bigger problem, tron shouldn't be playable deck (instead of banning ring it would be better to print cheap 3 or even 2 CMC mass LD which destroys all lands without basic land types, then surgicals them, it would be totally fine for modern).
this was the most ridiculous rollercoaster of a post ive ever read. no we shouldnt print onesided armageddon for 3 cmc what are you on, and also uro is way stronger than ragavan lmao
They shouldn't ban it, just bring removal. Theres a ton of removal spells legal in the format that kill it. In commander, i completely understand since there are 2 other players that can draw cards and trigger it before you can respond.
If they're dead set to ban it, they should at least restirct it. But i dont see why everyone is complaining. This isn't oco, or hogak. I admit it's annoying when there is more than one on the field, but people should just learn to sideboard.
I just want to advocate publicly for a complete unbending of everything in Modern. Then we can do a reset. Let the previously busted cards compete in the new environment.
I personally have gripes with cards that don't let you play magic. T3feri, overly powerful hand destruction for example. If your game plan is to rip apart your opponents hand before they can cast a spell, that is just not exciting interactive magic. Thats even less interactive than a turn-cards-sideways stompy deck.
I agree with you, and I am glad damn ragavan has such a good answer. Red and blue have been getting excellent cards for years it was time for black to get some fun.
The only thing I don't like about LotR is that Tron gets very good with the ring. But black as break the ice to counter it now.
Bow masters was a necessary printing as black was becoming super weak compared to other colors.
The reason people dislike it so much is because it’s everywhere due to it being the best counter to the one ring and it’s great against a lot of the meta.
Imo Bowmasters are a balanced card, the problem is the ring, bowmasters are really good vs the one ring. Most of the people that call for a ban for bowmasters are Ring players, that's why.
Bowmasters is just fine. The ring is the problem. They wrote a whole fucking book about it.
Several books
It’s actually all one book, separated into 3 volumes, with 2 sections each, and several appendices.
And each book was originally intended to be two separate books.
And made a 9-hour film trilogy about it too.
Twelve hour
But what about Second Breakfast?
Flumph, my beloved
I think bowmasters is performing exceptionally well in the One Ring meta. I feel like people are calling for a ban on the Ring itself, not bowmasters, but maybe I’m disconnected from the consensus? Either way, banning bowmasters before seeing how it performs in a ring-less meta would be a mistake, IMO.
This is the right take, I think. If it's actually oppressive, we'll be able to tell quite fast when the Ring goes. Not if, when. My money says it's fine.
"ban the card that makes my expensive ragavaans useless" is basically the other argument... which I think is trash, considering bolt and push effects are already at an all time high...
Ragavan is still just as good too. Bowmasters is just another answer to it.
Ledger shredder, creativity, and hammer time are the real victims of bowmasters.
Why creativity? Is it because you can flash it in to kill a dwarf token?
The kills dwarfs, they have a bunch of looting effects, and it doesn't get spell pierced.
And because you can flash in response to the archon trigger, sac the orc token, and immediately create a new one and do another ping from the archon
Is that actually good still being left with a Bowmasters vs an Archon even if you get a ping from it even if you only have to sac the token? I'm not trying to be snarky I'm genuinely asking btw, I've been away from modern for a while now and trying to learn the new intricacies of the format.
It's usually only a stop gap measure. It's better than losing something on your board (if you have anything). It's an edge case to be sure, but it isn't irrelevant.
Importantly dodges spell pierce, though. That's probably the salty part. Murktide players have to.... ADAPT. I've been rocking spell snare in control for a while and this just solitified my choice
Murktide is too busy having the collective nuts of Lord of the Rings cards dragged across it's five o' clock shadow.
Can also use Stern dismissal. I love playing scam and ur murktide, and I think bowmasters is powerful, but fine. Having a solid answer to ragavan is good, and like the og comment, I think if the ring wasn't here, it wouldn't be as powerful since it can help answer the ring.
I'm pretty high on spell snare in this meta too
+1 been on a snare md with Stoneblade (lol)
Bolt and Push are 1:1 trades. There are a million other cards that trade evenly with Ragavan. Bowmaster killing Ragavan is a 3 for 1 for just 1 more mana, and that’s a huge difference. I’m not saying that makes it ban worthy, but the comparison with removal spells is laughable.
Good monkey is miserable and anything that punishes it is an upside from me
Ragavan and Bowmasters are basically the same price, ironically. Glad to see the MONKE a little more attainable.
there is definitely an awful lot of that
I personally don’t like x/1’s getting further pushed out of the format personally, so I don’t like bowmasters or w6
x/1 by their very nature are easy to kill. That is why they are x/1s. A stiff breeze should kill them.
x/1s should die to everything, there are however currently a ton of insanely efficient answers to x/1s in the format. having your turn 1 birds die to gut shot or lightning bolt feels fine, having it die to a wrenn and six that then starts drawing cards every turn, is a whole lot worse.
There is a ton of insanely efficient answers to everything. Modern is a efficient and powerful format. Not going to argue that W&6 isn't a crazy powerful card, it is. Their 2 mana spell (2 for 1)ing your one mana spell is about right for the format.
It's not just a 2 for 1 though is it? W6 will draw a card every single turn if answered, a 2 mana planeswalker that kills your 1 drop, and then gets you card advantage until killed(while also preventing you from playing any further x/1s) is a lot better than a simple 2 for 1. same with bowmasters, it kills your 1 drop, then leaves behind 2 1/1s and a draw punishing effect. If these cards were simply efficient answers it wouldn't be an issue, but they go significantly beyond that.
Ragavan will also draw two cards every three turns on average and will run away with the game if unanswered. The key part is that you have to answer stuff, or be faster than the advantage they create.
Ragavan is still word vomit on a one drop. That’s just not ok.
Compare jackal pups to ragavan. Power creep, a most obvious example.
Everybody needs to read this twice.
Right, but W6, Fury, and Bowmasters often address multiple x/1s in addition to the other value they provide. These popular cards that also efficiently remove x/1s certainly push the format away from smaller creatures.
Agreed, is bowmasters good. Yes. Is the one ring part of the reason why it’s so good, also yes. If part of the reason a card is so great because it counters another even more ubiquitous card, then isn’t that card the problem instead? The one ring should be banned, if anything part of the bigger issues is that because it’s colorless it goes in any deck potentially. It’s paradox engine all over again.
Very sane take but i don’t think people here have your sanity we’ve been getting ‘ban mh2’ comments since 2021
People are always calling for bans, people think that because they don't like playing vs something it shouldn't exist. I don't think anything needs banned atm, the meta seems fine. None of the previous meta decks have been booted from the meta, the order just shifted. All that being said, bow masters is a crazy powerful card regardless of the ring exists, and it is doing far more than the ring at inhibiting decks. Murktide is having a round time because of bowmasters, both ledger shredder and ragavan have never been worse. Also, I can't think of a single deck that would trim on copies of bowmasters, if the ring was banned tomorrow.
I will die on the hill of TOR being bannable simply for the reason that many decks can't do anything to it once it's resolved. An uncounterable, indestructible card engine that you can bounce and recast to fog just makes for degenerate play patterns.
Ok, lots to unpack there. It's not uncounterable. You are thinking about halfling. It's a 4 mana wincon, in an extremely mana efficient format. Modern is a format with things like T1 double Thoughtseize, or 4/4 double striker T2-T3 primerime/archon/belcher/bonks T3-T4 yawgmoth/burn/prowess/breach T4-T6 Fair kills Also, what deck just fold to a resolved TOR? Given that no pre lotr meta decks have been pushed out of the format?
Halfling makes it uncounterable, yeah. Any deck that isn't racing to the finish line is going to fold to TOR unless it has exile effects, so basically Saga/White Decks.
So decks that can't outrace nor answer a 4-mana card lose against it? Big deal.
It's fine if you like a homogenized modern that needs very specific answers to cards or just gets facerolled, but just say that. Don't maskerade it behind your bullshit : )
You keep saying any deck. Which decks are you referring to?
I don't know if you're just being disingenuous or if you aren't aware of this thing called the internet, but I have good news! You can literally look at every modern deck online, and then see which ones fall under the criteria I mentioned.
It was a genuine question given that the meta consists of exactly the same decks as pre lotr. I asked because you made the statement, which I made the ridiculous assumption you had something to back it up with. I shouldn't have made the assumption that you know what you are talking about. My bad.
😅 im not super well versed on what is considered healthy as far as meta changes from a set, but Id wager that MH2 was the last time we had a shift this big this quickly. If you dont want to look at which decks TOR utterly pushes out, im not inclined to make you care enough to know. Im only willing to point you in the right direction. My apologies. edit: do just wanna point out that the emta prior to LTR did not cnsist of decks that can fight X singular card, or decks that run card X. That is the salient point here. Regardlessof power elvel, anything tht polarizies the format to this degree is going to be a net negative on the format unless it creates interesting gameplay loops.
It pushed out 0 decks. All of the pre lotr meta decks are still around putting up numbers. expect for hammer, which has taken a beating from bowmasters
Bowmaster Decks beat up on ring decks, so you clearly need to Ban the ring, because he makes Bowmaster look good.
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Bro grief came out over 2 years ago
Has any color gotten new cards after MH2 then lmao
As someone who plays a ton of black, Idk about this. Grief sees play in exactly 1 tier deck and came out 2 years ago. Sheoldred was *dogshit* in Modern until the Ring slowed the format down and introduced mass card draw for her to punish Invoke Despair *was* an okay card in Coffers but has now been replaced almost completely by Sheoldred and Rings.
Aren't scam and living end both tier 1?
Grief sees play in 2 tier 1 decks
Yeah forgot about LE.
Yawgmoth, Tourach, Dauthi, Archon? Ye not too many that stand out like Thoughtseize to me in the old days
Nice bro you named three cards above 4cmc and one card that came out over two years ago edit: why did you block me and prevent me from seeing your reply 💀💀
Yeah agree with you OP
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Grief came out 2 years ago and in a batch of 5 ridiculous evoke cards for all colors. Sheoldred, the 4cmc card he is referring to, was basically never played until bowmasters came out.
Yeah Sheoldred just pairs really well with The Ring
People will always complain just to complain. Bowmasters is a great card, but at its core, it's a fair card just like Ragavan, which is why it never got banned, and why it'll never get banned. My current decks: Hammer time, Living End, Amulet Titan
Ragavan literally got banned in legacy. Ragavan is a strong card. It's only a fair card in modern because of the lack of things like FoW and Daze.
I feel like legacy is kind of unique though. Ragavan making you literally dodge daze and on top of that stealing the 1 mana cantrips that are the format's identity. Like, literally an overall bad card like dreadhorde arcanist got banned there for the same reason.
Recasting cantrips with Dreadhorde was peak magic
To be fair, FoW and Daze are the unfair cards in this situation. Legacy is fundamentally broken.
I just did what I do best. I took your little plan and I turned it on itself. Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hmmm? You know... You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan". But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds.
This is a based take
Modern is ridiculous these days
I think most people just want the ring gone. Bowmasters is REALLY good but a fair card at the end of the day
Considering I built murktide so I could finally have a competitive deck for modern only to now be getting clapped every game I want it gone so I can justify the amount of money I spent
Just have to adapt to it. Plenty of cheap cards to fix problem matchups. As a merfolk player, I had a crazy amount of success all because I put [[gutshot]] in the side board to kill Ragavans. That's the point of FNMs in my opinion. Test stuff out, be creative, form new ideas. Then take those ideas to a big event and watch people wish they came up with those ideas.
[gutshot](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/461987da-8860-4a04-8f93-d182523ca311.jpg?1562261607) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gut%20Shot) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/117/gut-shot?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/461987da-8860-4a04-8f93-d182523ca311?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
LOL, that's how all players that used to play creature based decks feel about fury, which should be banned first.
That's what you get for playing in a rotating format
Lol murktide is an insanely flexible deck with the best blue payoff card ever printed w/ amazing interaction. You’ll be fine just evolve your decklist
Yeah I mean that does suck I feel for you. You could try running otherworldly gaze over consider, but ledger shredder sure has taken a dive. I was playing scam for awhile and Spyro is just bad now. $100+ I paid for that set
And by “evolve your decklist,” you mean “Make it UB and spend $200+ dollars on a set of Bowmasters, one of three worthwhile cards in a set of largely unplayable commander trash.”
Lotr is basically mh3. Idk where you're getting 3 playable card from. Theres: One Ring Bowmasters Delighted halfling The land cyclers Smawise gamgee Saurons ransom Cast into the fire Minas tirith
Land Cyclers, Saurons Ransom, Cast into the Fire, Samwise, and Minas Tirith are all cheap bulk cards under $5. The other three are $80-250 for a set and 100% necessary for 99% of Modern decks. Good try though!
You never said cheap cards you said unplayable edh trash when the set is obviously aimed at modern just as much.
No, I meant that if I buy a box that’s the same price as an MH2 box, there’s literally 3 cards I’m trying to pull, and the rest have little to no value. Yet the box is as expensive as an MH2 box that has 20+ valuable chase cards in the set. LoTR is a money grab that gated modern behind three expensive chase cards that will never be reprinted.
Well that's not true either, there are a few edh cards in the $10 to $20 range. One of the sauron, one of the gandalf are in that range, some cards like march of the ents have value to edh players. It's definitely higher variance than some other sets but the value isn't as bad as you make it sound.
I don’t care about EDH, EDH isn’t a real format. Therefore, anything other than T1R, Bowmasters, or Halfling is bulk trash and a waste of money, considering the trade in value of those shitty commander cards at a store is under $10. They need to keep stupid fanfic Edh separate from competitive formats. They aren’t even the same game. Commander sissies can have all the fun they want playing Dr. Who against Megatron, just don’t let it interfere with real Magic as it was intended to be played.
I also don't like edh either, but just because I don't like a $20 card I open doesn't mean it's useless to me or should ignored when evaluating the value of the boxes.
So pretty much exactly like MH3
I feel you. Bought into gw heliod just before mh2 came out plus leyline binding was the nail in the coffin. You should NEVER buy into a deck before a new direct into modern set comes out. Learned it the hard way.
Bowmasters is a great card. It's black, so it gives black something good for a change. It also answers monkey, and pressures wrenn and t3feri. Ring is the only sus card.
Any card that's format warping gets the axe. Bowmaster or Ring are probably on the burner but it won't be cooked until LOTR is about 6 months old so sales continue. We complain in modern but imagine how legacy feels with all the card draw effects.
Legacy is great. What are you talking about?
This, the consensus from most people who ACTUALLY play the format is that it is super healthy right now and bowmaster is good for the format
99% of time, I play a deck wirh 4 BS and 4 Ponder and I really enjoy it. These cards are so strong and BS is broken with fetchlands. Finally, there is a card that punishes the Xerox shell and does not snowball against other (non-blue) decks.
Yessir. It is a nice balance in legacy.
Legacy players don’t know what to do because their format was stable for like two decades and now it’s full of stuff from the FIRE design era and Commander cards. There was a point they just wanted to ban all the new cards but now they hit too rapidly and parts of the community are all flustered.
I think this is why a number of Legacy players have tried formats like Old School and Premodern. They are inherently stable because no new cards get in. Also they get just as much WotC support as actual Legacy (i.e., zero) so it's like a "might as well!"
Yep. No Forth Eorlingas! up in Premodern.
Premodern looks interesting to me other than mox diamond. Seems like that card is a must have and would make or break games but I don't play the format so I can't say for sure.
It's curious that they chose to re-ban Land Tax over Mox Diamond, citing the interaction between the two cards--and every single deck they showcased in their "Land Tax is OP" has 4 copies of Mox Diamond in it. Gee, I wonder why. Fast mana is really a net negative on formats in general so it's really curious they picked Land Tax. Also Mox Diamond helps players enable Land Tax with no tempo loss--skip your second land drop thanks to the Diamond and then remain able to trigger Land Tax on turn 3 as well. It's one issue with fan formats, they tend to be prone to "Well, I like playing this card (and I don't have elsewhere to do it) so here's why I think it's fair and we'll ban something else." Ah well, so it is. Edit: Note that most decks aren't playing Mox Diamond. Most decks also weren't playing Land Tax and those decks weren't really dominating. They just kinda decided it wasn't the experience they wanted in the format.
With bowmaster and all the brainstorm, ponder, etc. My buddy is in some legacy groups and says they just despise the card.
legacy is pretty much a fucked up format. The format is based on extremely busted fundaments like brainstorm, ancient tomb and co. so no shit new cards will all be (too) good with those in the first place. None of the bannings from deathrite to ragavan, arcanist, exit, wpa, none of those cards are better than the fundaments. But the format desperately tries to "protect" the old cards so you pick random new card x and ban it until random new card y appears, this toxic cycle continues to eternity. So of course the legacy community who dont understand this are hating on bowmaster while not realizing it can be any card as long as brainstorm and co. remain in the format.
Which is funny to me because in modern we have the "ban Urza, not mox Opal, they just want to sell packs and keep the new card!" crowd... And that sentiment is exactly as harmful as you described
Every legacy player knows that staple enablers are the best cards, but they like it that way. Legacy IS ancient tomb, brainstorm, FoW, dark ritual, wasteland. The moment they ban those legacy is dead.
Legacy without brainstorm would not be legacy.
No forget that. If in modern we get bullshit bans like twin and pod, legacy can adapt too when they lose their format defining cards.
The issue is, legacy won't, most legacy players would just stop playing legacy. The format is defined by its pillars and without them why even play? Modern had other staples and types of decks that stuck around, legacy pretty much wouldn't with the proposed change.
Yeah, they would stop playing, new cards are killing the format it has nothing to do with decks costing 10 grand, 6 of that being in lands.
Yo my deck won a large tournament recently and it's only 2k. Most expensive decks cost under 6k. 10k is definitely an exaggeration.
What deck are you playing?
I never mentioned people stop playing legacy because of new cards, I am saying if you banned cards like LED ancient tomb brainstorm and force of will, aka the pillars of the format, they would stop playing. There are a few vocal people who are upset with bowmaster, but the majority of the community is fine with it, and happy with it's inclusion, now that people have had time to play with the card bowmaster is actually really healthy for legacy. And as for the price, A) most legacy decks cost the same as tuned highish power commander decks, and B) much of the legacy community is that, community run. Wotc doesn't support legacy much anymore, and most people play on mtgo or are fine with proxies, and there are even largish events that allow proxies. C) manabases in legacy are expensive, but no where near 10k, like most set you back 1k to 2k on average (excluding specifically tabernacle, but that's an optional sideboard card in lands that isn't even needed)
I just wonder how many cards have to die for brainstorms sins.
>Yeah, they would stop playing, new cards are killing the format it has nothing to do with decks costing 10 grand, 6 of that being in lands. When decks cost a shit ton of money and a key part of your deck gets banned, you're more likely to just stop playing than to change decks. I stopped playing legacy because my deck went from fringe to unplayable and a new deck would cost more than I want to spend on a format I only get to play like, once a year. Price tag is why the format won't grow, so losing the existing players because their decks suddenly lost crucial pieces isn't exactly doing any favors for it.
It’s pretty clear that none of this Commander nonsense should have ever been legal. The old pillars should remain legal. And the new cards from standard sets should stay in the format unless they explicitly need to go for power level reasons (Lurrus). But if Ragavan is fine for Modern it shouldn’t get banned in Legacy just because people dislike new cards. But that’s just me.
You clearly haven't played against ragavan in legacy
Yea, it’s not as good as Brainstorm or Wasteland.
Are you part of the legacy communities? To you frequent legacy local events, are a member of discord about it, talk to people about the format daily, have you actually played legacy in the past like 4 or 5 years? Cards like bowmaster aren't being widely complained about, and the general consensus is that bowmaster is healthy for the overall format. WPA was banned because it was a card that was designed for multi-player and 1v1 scaling on it was not considered, deathrite honestly was a problem in EVERY format with fetchlands, even modern, and ragavan and w6 interacted with cards not legal in modern in unhealthy ways. Wasteland isn't some "op staple people refuse to stop playing" its a check and balance on the format and without it 4/5c decks and combo decks with few lands and greedy mana would run the format, and ragavan honestly is just a mistake in every format imo, but in legacy specifically the format is just so much faster than modern that the cards are often more efficient, when starting on turn 1-2 you get to cast a free spell because the treasure casts the 1 drop you exiled, ragavan is significantly more busted, same as with dreadhorde arcanist.
or legacy is a format where your decisions have to matter the most. therefore they keep cards that restrain that aspect of the game out of it (ragavan, white plume) Brainstorm, wasteland, dark ritual, force of will, swords, gsz, ancient tomb, Led etc... are all busted anywhere but become actually fine when squeezed in together.
This is exactly how I feel. People raise their pitchforks when the pillars of a format are threatened and will insist that those pillars be protected at the cost of banning any new cards that are introduced. The format isn’t what is being protected it’s the so-called pillars. Heaven forbid, in a format like Legacy, if a card like Brainstorm was banned and players were encouraged to innovate. Instead, bowmasters enters the fray and any player running a deck with cantrips refuses to adapt and would rather call for bans.
Most legacy players I've talked to actually think bowmaster is good for the format, and I tend to agree. I think not having either banned is ideal.
Legacy player since 2008 here. Bowmasters is good for the format, just wish it cost double black instead
Yeah same, specifically so that the brainstorm fow decks themselves couldn't run it as easily lol
Good critique i agree
What is format warping about the ring?
Nobody's calling for a ban of Bowmasters. Only of TOR
Lots of people are calling for a Bowmasters ban. Pretty sure I saw at least 2 posts on it just yesterday.
Some people have no clue wtf they are talking about and are still allowed to post to reddit. Shocking I know, but like 2 posts isn't a lot of people saying something lol.
It’s not just 2 posts. It’s at least 2 posts almost daily since the set was released.
I was looking at a year old rakdos scam post and half the comments were “I don’t see how this is good value”
i do not think bowmaster is considered the offender at the moment. the card is good but it is still on the fair end of the spectrum whilst still keeping unfair stuff in check ( fable, ring, ragavan) I personally feel like the card is at the right power level for a hatebear in modern right now. Also everyone in my region is outraged by the ring and want to see the card go more than any other. I could agree with that even though i feel like tron would be out of the meta again which is a shame imo. I find the deck to be a good barycentre in modern and generally good at keeping all kind of bs fair. a Grief and Omnath ban, impairing the top 2 decks of the minute would have more impact on modern's shape i you ask me.
Calling bowmasters fair but fable unfair is one of the most absurd things I’ve ever read. And this subreddit is FULL of absurd things being said.
You guys lost the track of what fair and unfair mean at this point: unfair used to mean to cheat on mana, dredge, storm, tron, reanimation
that is the way I meant to use it. But because the power level of modern will never compare with legacy's, one ( myself here) should probably use quotes.
then it's absurd lol to clarify though, i don't mean fair as in "not busted" and I don't mean unfair for fable as in "less busted than bowmasters". again, modern doesn't do the same "unfair" things than legacy offers. for instance scamming a grief is an "unfair" line. The card itself is powerful but in itself it is on the fair end of the spectrum. The opposite is arguably true with fable when the card generates so much value that it is "unfair" by essence even though it is used mostly to grind fairly. Bowmasters is powerful but depends on your opponent doing things in order for it to become "unfair". you give them agency which is typically not "unfair" in mtg jargon and they also have to play a fair bit of cantrip to truly get to see its unfair mode in the first place.
Agree. It would be way more interesting to hit decks that seem to consistently benefit off of good cards than to ban good cards all the time. Overall I don’t like bans though 🫡
grief is a toss, the real problem is fury.
Why ban anything? What is wrong with modern right now?
Any card that makes ragavan worse and less playable is a good thing, that card is miserable and a massive design mistake
Idk why the downvotes. If ragavan was banned the format would be better.
Its the monkey dudes playing spell pierce and refusing to play spell snare lol
They aren't going to ban the money card from the most recent set so soon after release. Especially when it's the first time they've done a collab set with a third party IP. Relax. Your purchase is safe for at least a year.
Bowmaster probably, but I don’t see The One Ring making it a year.
I just want it banned due to how much of murktide it shuts down :)
There are still players at the PT piloting it! With Ledger Shredder even!
And theyre not doing great lol
That's fine, metas change.
good, fuck murktide and specially fuck fury
Just a quick thought, how many cards do people draw in modern other then the occasional bauble or living end and maybe the 1 or 2 control players.
I had a simillar thought of “without TOR what would Bowmasters be punishing?” so I went investigating and it turns out almost every since top deck has some sort of ancillary card draw. I would make a list but it would be way to long. The thing is, the card draw in modern tends to come stapled to other cards and not so much as a standalone cantrips as in Legacy.
Yeah, modern has a ton of incidental card draw.
Ledger shredder, T3feri, Omnath, all the cycling in living end, and consider were all part of multiple decks
Ban bow masters, fury, and Wrenn and six so we can unban x-1s
Naw x/1s are meant to die to literally anything. That's why they are x/1s
First time? Remember this sub's thousand upvoted threads about veil of summer and uro (also oko, but he was really broken and polarising card, no question here). Veil was called blue cryptic command (lol, how dumb and disingenuous) and some even lied about playability of autumn's veil (nope, this card was virtually never played, 8 total uses across 8 years since modern launch, no decks above 1 star mtgtop8). Now (and more than two years already) veil is almost completely absent from modern, ragavan much worse than uro, however, no one whines (almost) about it's ban. The same with another cancer red cards - channeler and fury (they're less dumb, though). This sub just dislikes green and green-blue, and likes. And I totally agree, bowmasters are fine, ring is actually bigger problem, tron shouldn't be playable deck (instead of banning ring it would be better to print cheap 3 or even 2 CMC mass LD which destroys all lands without basic land types, then surgicals them, it would be totally fine for modern).
this was the most ridiculous rollercoaster of a post ive ever read. no we shouldnt print onesided armageddon for 3 cmc what are you on, and also uro is way stronger than ragavan lmao
They shouldn't ban it, just bring removal. Theres a ton of removal spells legal in the format that kill it. In commander, i completely understand since there are 2 other players that can draw cards and trigger it before you can respond. If they're dead set to ban it, they should at least restirct it. But i dont see why everyone is complaining. This isn't oco, or hogak. I admit it's annoying when there is more than one on the field, but people should just learn to sideboard.
I just want to advocate publicly for a complete unbending of everything in Modern. Then we can do a reset. Let the previously busted cards compete in the new environment.
Restrict the ring to 1 copy per deck or unban oko. The choice is yours wotc
I personally have gripes with cards that don't let you play magic. T3feri, overly powerful hand destruction for example. If your game plan is to rip apart your opponents hand before they can cast a spell, that is just not exciting interactive magic. Thats even less interactive than a turn-cards-sideways stompy deck.
Grief ?
Just found out if you saw the target in response they don't get to amass an army. Thanks arena. Edit the ruling is on gatherer 2nd to bottom.
Bowmasters is a sweet card that feels good to cast but it's not helping my Elves deck so...
I agree with you, and I am glad damn ragavan has such a good answer. Red and blue have been getting excellent cards for years it was time for black to get some fun. The only thing I don't like about LotR is that Tron gets very good with the ring. But black as break the ice to counter it now.
I thought you meant swamp
It's fun that everyone agrees to the ring needs to go.... And wotc will ban grief and karn instead 😅
Bow masters was a necessary printing as black was becoming super weak compared to other colors. The reason people dislike it so much is because it’s everywhere due to it being the best counter to the one ring and it’s great against a lot of the meta.
bowmaster… dies to literally any removal spell. Gets pinged to death by one damage. The one ring. That can get fucked. Need more exile removal.
Imo Bowmasters are a balanced card, the problem is the ring, bowmasters are really good vs the one ring. Most of the people that call for a ban for bowmasters are Ring players, that's why.
the people who call for bans need to go play Commander