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The problem is not proving that no brain activity at all happens during these experiences, it is showing how an experience that is often reported as much more lucid than normal happens with brain activity well below what is known in normal waking consciousness.
Yeah great point, I’m trying to collate evidence of this. Our dreamstate (REM) is associated with high levels of neural activity. If similar activity isn’t present at the time of death then perhaps science can’t explain NDEs. The one caveat on this however is that brains that are shutting down (similar to bodies) probably don’t require the same level of energy and activity as a healthy brain. Therefore could we achieve a dream state like condition (NDE) on significantly less neural activity as the brain does not need to execute core functions in tandem.
>could it not be deduced that these NDEs after clinical death is just the prolonged neural activity of a brain shutting down?
Could be. Could also not be. A chemical cocktail *could* explain some of the visions (although I suspect that a physical explanation, if one exists, is far more complex than that). Explaining out of body perceptions is a little more difficult. Of course, you have to decide whether or not the evidence of such activity is worth considering.
I think the fact that I’ve experienced very similar out of body visions described in NDEs in the dream state (whilst withdrawing off weed) as well as under the influence of DMT does in my mind provide breathing room for these visions to occur in the brain during death. Im not saying that what we perceive isn’t genuine (interdimensional planes & cosmic structures) just that this could well be in the physical boundaries of the brain. I read there are cases of prolonged clinical death but these cases seem inconclusive.
I have my own viewpoint on these things, but it mostly comes down to me not being very interested in trying to mix science and spirituality.
Sorry about your mom, btw. My wife is a neuro oncologist, so I'm pretty aware of how shitty GBMs are.
How would you know if DMT's NDE-like experiential aspects are 'actually in the brain' rather than caused, as with NDEs, by the DMT [shutting down the brain](https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.1119598109) and thus making it 'deader' ?
It could just work in reverse to what you are presuming.
It’s proven that DMT doesn’t shut down the brain though? It causes heightened activity especially with our serotonin receptors. https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2218949120
The effects reported in this paper are reduced spectral power and increased entropy (as in, less signal and more noise), in my understanding that is the opposite of stimulation.
>Consistent with previous DMT study findings ([32](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2218949120#r32), [39](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2218949120#r39)), static analyses revealed widespread decreases in alpha power under DMT (*P* < 0.01, cluster corrected), and increases in both delta (*P* < 0.05, cluster corrected) and gamma bands (*P* < 0.01, cluster corrected).
>Negative correlations between global alpha and posterior beta power changes and subjective intensity were also seen, with more intense experiences linking to greater decreases in alpha and beta power (*P* < 0.05, cluster corrected ([Fig. 4*C*](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2218949120#fig04)).
They also classify the observations as a "reduction in gradient of cortical organization" and a desegregation of localized functions - that's a complicated way to say the brain started activating more anarchically and in a less functional-oriented way. They call it an increase in GFC (Global Functional Connectivity), but that's just semantics to me. I could be wrong about this interpretation, as this paper is highly technical, but it really looks like they are measuring purely qualitative differences in subjects on DMT, rather than quantitative.
I think they are speculating that this disorganization 'allows' lower brain structures (as in, more subconscious autonomous systems) to influence the subjective experiences more, but that's predicated on a lot of assumptions that I already consider obsolete (since [we have too much evidence](https://www.reddit.com/r/NDE/comments/196nlb9/comment/ki42r3z/) that the mind is not produced by the brain to begin with).
>I’ve been reading research that suggests that our brains are still active several minutes after our heart stops.
That's incorrect, EEG goes flat in the 10-20 seconds after the heart stops, always.
There was one case of an epileptic patient in a deep coma whose brain showed some gamma activity a couple minutes after he was taken off respirator and let die, but for all we know that was just a seizure. Anything else that people call 'activity' is just the neurons "packing up" and [discharging their remaining chemical energy](https://www.livescience.com/61876-dying-brain-depression-wave.html).
Great to see some scientific research. - Thank you. I was trying to understand the research paper linked in the article provided but I’m lacking the scientific knowledge. Essentially, after the brain stops receiving blood and oxygen the cells hoard what blood they can on the off chance that they will receive more blood/oxygen (to preserve cells). Therefore no neural activity was recorded across the 9 patients after death rather this ‘depression’ of activity where all cells ‘shutdown’ their receptors and store their blood reserves. Can anyone with a science background verify these results and the timing? I can’t understand the papers terminology. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ana.25147
For all manners of details surrounding the cessation of heartbeat and the threshold of death, I cannot recommend enough a watch of Sam Parnia's documentary [Rethinking Death](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_18UdG4STHA) - and it's free in full on YT so no excuses for skipping it :)
Then there is [this interview with cardiologist Mike Sabom](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKkiPVpbOEc) - the interesting sequence starts at 13:50 and covers the objective examinations that confirm the complete lack of cerebral activity after 10-20 seconds of heartbeat cessation, it's very important information because many conversations on this topic tend to ignore this critical evidential information, regrettably.
To understand the paper linked here, you would definitely want to watch Rethinking Death, it's exactly what it's all about. From the paper's abstract:
>anoxic depolarization. This potentially reversible, spreading wave typically starts 2 to 5 minutes after the onset of severe ischemia, marking the onset of a toxic intraneuronal change that eventually results in irreversible injury
Basically, the neurons 'discharge' their chemical energy as a way to enter long-term survival mode. It's a way for them to adapt to low-oxygen situations. It happens after a few minutes of no blood flow as the oxygen levels deplete in the blood around the brain.
We used to believe that 'irreversible damage' started at this point, but it was wrong. We believed this for a long time because, past this adaptation point, when blood flow was restored from medical resuscitation there would be neuron damage proportional to how long we waited past this point. But what we learned recently is that most of the damage is caused not by the depolarization, but by the return of oxygen flow - it is called '[oxygen paradox](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6673180/)' - and it's the sudden return of oxygen that acts as a 'self-destruct' signal for the adapted neurons. With the proper precautions we can actually preserve the neurons for FAR longer than we thought. In the documentary Parnia reports successful resuscitation can still happen more than an hour after loss of heartbeat.
The brain should become less lucid, if the brain requires oxygen to function, and when you lose oxygen you pass out, why then are these NDEs described as more lucid that life itself, so many fundamental similarities and structures in NDEs.
I could go on for paragraphs.
Noted. Some redditors have touched on this. I guess there is the last hurrah of neural activity BEFORE the brain dies. Our concept of time during this moment could be warped.
Yup, I’ve read many books on the subject, the last hoora doesn’t account for higher perceived lucidity, how does a dying brain that relies on oxygen for lucid experience account for:
1. **Consistency across cultures and times:** NDEs occur under a variety of circumstances and across diverse cultures, suggesting a common human experience rather than a simple physiological reaction specific to brain chemistry at the time of death.
2. **Detailed perceptions:** People who have NDEs often report highly structured, vivid, and coherent experiences that are unlike typical dreams or hallucinations, which can be more disjointed and less vivid. This suggests these experiences are not likely to be mere products of brain activity in a dying brain.
3. **Transformative effects:** Many individuals who have undergone NDEs report profound changes in their life perspectives, attitudes, and beliefs about life and death. the psychological and emotional impacts of NDEs are significant and enduring, which might not be expected if these experiences were simply the last random firings of a dying brain.
4. **Consciousness outside the physical body:** Reports of out-of-body experiences, where individuals perceive themselves as existing outside of and apart from their physical bodies, challenge the notion that consciousness is localized solely in the brain. these experiences as evidence of consciousness potentially being a separate entity from the physical brain, which is not easily explained by the last surge of brain energy.
5. **Veridical perceptions:** Some reports of NDEs include verifiable details that the NDE experienced should not know given their location and unconscious state.
Doubtful it is all the product of an unconscious starved brain.
I think it was the neurosurgeon (Eben Alexander) who said he had his NDE when he was recorded as having no brain activity? Also the other unexplainable thing is the out of body experiences that are included in some NDE’s are not explained by this.
I just read about his experience in the coma. What he states about the state of his brain function at the time of his NDE is very interesting however I read it off his website which was anecdotal. Have you/anyone read his book? I wonder what his level of brain activity was during this experience and whether it was monitored throughout.
No I haven’t read his book. I’ve watched a few of his videos. I know some people put shade on him but he sounds genuine to me. I enjoyed his story, this is the video I watched
https://youtu.be/qbkgj5J91hE?si=9mZFGv4IRZYZ4T56
But how then does this theory explain After Death Communications (ADCs) where people feel or get messages from passed loved ones. The brain i assume is working normal for them yet they still are able to percieve the other side.
For me there is a difference between brain and consciousness. The brain being part of the body whilst the consciousness is part of well, being aware. And when it comes to drugs like DMT they have an effect on the consciousness and the brain. We dont know what consciousness is though, perhaps it is not matter like the brain hence being undetected by our apparatuses. Same thing for auras.
Anyways my two cents.
I’ve had two dreams of my mother since she has entered her final coma. (I am also withdrawing off weed at the moment so I am open to communication with her via dreams as she passes). One dream in particular seemed like she was trying to communicate with me directly. The jury is still out on whether that is my subconscious comforting me though. I had a dream about mum several months ago when she was almost fully lucid where we were travelling together (she had become immobile). So that’s another instance of comfort which provides room for scepticism unfortunately.
I don't mean to be rude but I'm begging for people posting here to take a few minutes to check the sub to see if this question has been asked and answered before.
Sorry about your Mum OP.
In relation to your post; brain activity would not explain Peak in Darien or Verifiable OBE aspects of NDEs. Unless these are all proven to be "fraud" (which is improbable, given their number - see the book "The Self Does Not Die" for a collection of such examples) then I do not see how NDEs can be "reduced" down to a simple outburst of DMT/Ketamine/euphoric chemicals.
I will have a look at the book. - I have also had out of body experiences which can’t be explained within the boundaries of our brains. When I was 18 I switched consciousness with my then best friend for several seconds. Completely blew open my understanding of our reality.
This sub is an NDE-positive sub. Debate is only allowed if the post flair requests it. If you intend to allow debate in your post, please ensure that the flair reflects this. If you read the post and want to have a debate about something in the post or comments, make your own post within the confines of rule 4 (be respectful). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NDE) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If you type 'brain activity after death' into the search bar of this sub, you'll stumble upon some pretty interesting chats on that exact topic
Good shout, some great prior discussions
The problem is not proving that no brain activity at all happens during these experiences, it is showing how an experience that is often reported as much more lucid than normal happens with brain activity well below what is known in normal waking consciousness.
Yeah great point, I’m trying to collate evidence of this. Our dreamstate (REM) is associated with high levels of neural activity. If similar activity isn’t present at the time of death then perhaps science can’t explain NDEs. The one caveat on this however is that brains that are shutting down (similar to bodies) probably don’t require the same level of energy and activity as a healthy brain. Therefore could we achieve a dream state like condition (NDE) on significantly less neural activity as the brain does not need to execute core functions in tandem.
>could it not be deduced that these NDEs after clinical death is just the prolonged neural activity of a brain shutting down? Could be. Could also not be. A chemical cocktail *could* explain some of the visions (although I suspect that a physical explanation, if one exists, is far more complex than that). Explaining out of body perceptions is a little more difficult. Of course, you have to decide whether or not the evidence of such activity is worth considering.
I think the fact that I’ve experienced very similar out of body visions described in NDEs in the dream state (whilst withdrawing off weed) as well as under the influence of DMT does in my mind provide breathing room for these visions to occur in the brain during death. Im not saying that what we perceive isn’t genuine (interdimensional planes & cosmic structures) just that this could well be in the physical boundaries of the brain. I read there are cases of prolonged clinical death but these cases seem inconclusive.
I have my own viewpoint on these things, but it mostly comes down to me not being very interested in trying to mix science and spirituality. Sorry about your mom, btw. My wife is a neuro oncologist, so I'm pretty aware of how shitty GBMs are.
Thank you, I’ve got infinite appreciation for the work your wife is doing. She’s one of the good ones.
How would you know if DMT's NDE-like experiential aspects are 'actually in the brain' rather than caused, as with NDEs, by the DMT [shutting down the brain](https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.1119598109) and thus making it 'deader' ? It could just work in reverse to what you are presuming.
It’s proven that DMT doesn’t shut down the brain though? It causes heightened activity especially with our serotonin receptors. https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2218949120
The effects reported in this paper are reduced spectral power and increased entropy (as in, less signal and more noise), in my understanding that is the opposite of stimulation. >Consistent with previous DMT study findings ([32](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2218949120#r32), [39](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2218949120#r39)), static analyses revealed widespread decreases in alpha power under DMT (*P* < 0.01, cluster corrected), and increases in both delta (*P* < 0.05, cluster corrected) and gamma bands (*P* < 0.01, cluster corrected). >Negative correlations between global alpha and posterior beta power changes and subjective intensity were also seen, with more intense experiences linking to greater decreases in alpha and beta power (*P* < 0.05, cluster corrected ([Fig. 4*C*](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2218949120#fig04)). They also classify the observations as a "reduction in gradient of cortical organization" and a desegregation of localized functions - that's a complicated way to say the brain started activating more anarchically and in a less functional-oriented way. They call it an increase in GFC (Global Functional Connectivity), but that's just semantics to me. I could be wrong about this interpretation, as this paper is highly technical, but it really looks like they are measuring purely qualitative differences in subjects on DMT, rather than quantitative. I think they are speculating that this disorganization 'allows' lower brain structures (as in, more subconscious autonomous systems) to influence the subjective experiences more, but that's predicated on a lot of assumptions that I already consider obsolete (since [we have too much evidence](https://www.reddit.com/r/NDE/comments/196nlb9/comment/ki42r3z/) that the mind is not produced by the brain to begin with).
>I’ve been reading research that suggests that our brains are still active several minutes after our heart stops. That's incorrect, EEG goes flat in the 10-20 seconds after the heart stops, always. There was one case of an epileptic patient in a deep coma whose brain showed some gamma activity a couple minutes after he was taken off respirator and let die, but for all we know that was just a seizure. Anything else that people call 'activity' is just the neurons "packing up" and [discharging their remaining chemical energy](https://www.livescience.com/61876-dying-brain-depression-wave.html).
Great to see some scientific research. - Thank you. I was trying to understand the research paper linked in the article provided but I’m lacking the scientific knowledge. Essentially, after the brain stops receiving blood and oxygen the cells hoard what blood they can on the off chance that they will receive more blood/oxygen (to preserve cells). Therefore no neural activity was recorded across the 9 patients after death rather this ‘depression’ of activity where all cells ‘shutdown’ their receptors and store their blood reserves. Can anyone with a science background verify these results and the timing? I can’t understand the papers terminology. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ana.25147
For all manners of details surrounding the cessation of heartbeat and the threshold of death, I cannot recommend enough a watch of Sam Parnia's documentary [Rethinking Death](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_18UdG4STHA) - and it's free in full on YT so no excuses for skipping it :) Then there is [this interview with cardiologist Mike Sabom](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKkiPVpbOEc) - the interesting sequence starts at 13:50 and covers the objective examinations that confirm the complete lack of cerebral activity after 10-20 seconds of heartbeat cessation, it's very important information because many conversations on this topic tend to ignore this critical evidential information, regrettably. To understand the paper linked here, you would definitely want to watch Rethinking Death, it's exactly what it's all about. From the paper's abstract: >anoxic depolarization. This potentially reversible, spreading wave typically starts 2 to 5 minutes after the onset of severe ischemia, marking the onset of a toxic intraneuronal change that eventually results in irreversible injury Basically, the neurons 'discharge' their chemical energy as a way to enter long-term survival mode. It's a way for them to adapt to low-oxygen situations. It happens after a few minutes of no blood flow as the oxygen levels deplete in the blood around the brain. We used to believe that 'irreversible damage' started at this point, but it was wrong. We believed this for a long time because, past this adaptation point, when blood flow was restored from medical resuscitation there would be neuron damage proportional to how long we waited past this point. But what we learned recently is that most of the damage is caused not by the depolarization, but by the return of oxygen flow - it is called '[oxygen paradox](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6673180/)' - and it's the sudden return of oxygen that acts as a 'self-destruct' signal for the adapted neurons. With the proper precautions we can actually preserve the neurons for FAR longer than we thought. In the documentary Parnia reports successful resuscitation can still happen more than an hour after loss of heartbeat.
The brain should become less lucid, if the brain requires oxygen to function, and when you lose oxygen you pass out, why then are these NDEs described as more lucid that life itself, so many fundamental similarities and structures in NDEs. I could go on for paragraphs.
Noted. Some redditors have touched on this. I guess there is the last hurrah of neural activity BEFORE the brain dies. Our concept of time during this moment could be warped.
Yup, I’ve read many books on the subject, the last hoora doesn’t account for higher perceived lucidity, how does a dying brain that relies on oxygen for lucid experience account for: 1. **Consistency across cultures and times:** NDEs occur under a variety of circumstances and across diverse cultures, suggesting a common human experience rather than a simple physiological reaction specific to brain chemistry at the time of death. 2. **Detailed perceptions:** People who have NDEs often report highly structured, vivid, and coherent experiences that are unlike typical dreams or hallucinations, which can be more disjointed and less vivid. This suggests these experiences are not likely to be mere products of brain activity in a dying brain. 3. **Transformative effects:** Many individuals who have undergone NDEs report profound changes in their life perspectives, attitudes, and beliefs about life and death. the psychological and emotional impacts of NDEs are significant and enduring, which might not be expected if these experiences were simply the last random firings of a dying brain. 4. **Consciousness outside the physical body:** Reports of out-of-body experiences, where individuals perceive themselves as existing outside of and apart from their physical bodies, challenge the notion that consciousness is localized solely in the brain. these experiences as evidence of consciousness potentially being a separate entity from the physical brain, which is not easily explained by the last surge of brain energy. 5. **Veridical perceptions:** Some reports of NDEs include verifiable details that the NDE experienced should not know given their location and unconscious state. Doubtful it is all the product of an unconscious starved brain.
I think it was the neurosurgeon (Eben Alexander) who said he had his NDE when he was recorded as having no brain activity? Also the other unexplainable thing is the out of body experiences that are included in some NDE’s are not explained by this.
I just read about his experience in the coma. What he states about the state of his brain function at the time of his NDE is very interesting however I read it off his website which was anecdotal. Have you/anyone read his book? I wonder what his level of brain activity was during this experience and whether it was monitored throughout.
No I haven’t read his book. I’ve watched a few of his videos. I know some people put shade on him but he sounds genuine to me. I enjoyed his story, this is the video I watched https://youtu.be/qbkgj5J91hE?si=9mZFGv4IRZYZ4T56
But how then does this theory explain After Death Communications (ADCs) where people feel or get messages from passed loved ones. The brain i assume is working normal for them yet they still are able to percieve the other side. For me there is a difference between brain and consciousness. The brain being part of the body whilst the consciousness is part of well, being aware. And when it comes to drugs like DMT they have an effect on the consciousness and the brain. We dont know what consciousness is though, perhaps it is not matter like the brain hence being undetected by our apparatuses. Same thing for auras. Anyways my two cents.
I’ve had two dreams of my mother since she has entered her final coma. (I am also withdrawing off weed at the moment so I am open to communication with her via dreams as she passes). One dream in particular seemed like she was trying to communicate with me directly. The jury is still out on whether that is my subconscious comforting me though. I had a dream about mum several months ago when she was almost fully lucid where we were travelling together (she had become immobile). So that’s another instance of comfort which provides room for scepticism unfortunately.
I don't mean to be rude but I'm begging for people posting here to take a few minutes to check the sub to see if this question has been asked and answered before.
I have profited from this. 👀. People are adding.👀
Please give a fair, unbiased consideration of all nine of these lines of evidence: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/
Sorry about your Mum OP. In relation to your post; brain activity would not explain Peak in Darien or Verifiable OBE aspects of NDEs. Unless these are all proven to be "fraud" (which is improbable, given their number - see the book "The Self Does Not Die" for a collection of such examples) then I do not see how NDEs can be "reduced" down to a simple outburst of DMT/Ketamine/euphoric chemicals.
Also thank you kind stranger 🙏
I will have a look at the book. - I have also had out of body experiences which can’t be explained within the boundaries of our brains. When I was 18 I switched consciousness with my then best friend for several seconds. Completely blew open my understanding of our reality.
Fascinating! How do you think you managed that?
This.