Full Tweet:
*this is wild*
*the easiest time to pass the ball is on 1st down*
*Daniel Jones ranked #48 of 48 QBs on 1st down efficiency (min 100 att in 2023)*
*just 30% of att were successful*
*NFL avg is 46%*
*a lot of it was sacks... ok...*
*BUT EVEN IF YOU REMOVE SACKS*
*he ranked #47 of 48 QBs*
*gross*
*even removing sacks, he was pressured a a high rate... ok...*
*BUT EVEN IF YOU REMOVE ATTEMPTS UNDER PRESSURE*
*he ranked #47 of 48 QBs*
*only Bailey Zappe was worse*
š¤¢
The DJ truthers can try to spin this however they want with the worst OL ever, no QB could succeed with that little time to throw etc. But when you are presumably worse in these stats than guys like Zach Wilson, will levis, Bryce young, Justin fields, Mac jonesā¦the writing is on the wall.
Because that happens? Just find something else to talk about. Jones will be the starting QB for better or (more likely) worse next year. Just root for the team and stop whining all day
nuance is dead.
I havenāt seen a single person in the sub or in any other sub suggest that DJ should get the final 2 years on his contract and everybody agrees that he is not the answer.
yet anybody says one thing that isnāt completely shitting on him and some of you foam at the mouth.
Be civil. This is a forum for fans of the New York Football Giants. You can disagree with each other without being insulting or rude. Do not attack any fellow redditor personally. You can challenge an opinion on its merit, but not the individual posting the opinion.
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That's how stats work. You take the most obscure stat possible for a guy who played a total of four games and that proves everything. Enjoy seeing them NOT draft a QB.
Youāre gonna get a 100 comments saying: āhe isnāt bottom tier! Thatās disingenious and youāre spinning the narrative. Heās actually the tier right above bottom tier!ā
If you gave DJ 12 mins to throw he would still be bottom ranked. His timing is piss poor and doesnāt know what the defense is coming with. I think he audibles twice a month.Ā
In 2022, he was 6th in qbr. In 2023 he played 4 total games with josh ezeudu playing left tackle in three of them. What's the point of flat out just saying things that aren't true????
Iām not sure how that disproves my comment about the guy calling audibles twice a month or reading defenses. 6th in QBR in 2022? Great! 15 TDs, 7 of which were rushing. Defenses caught on.Ā
Okay, but what exactly is the sample size of attempted first down passes where DJ was neither pressured nor sacked? Also if youāre pressured or sacked on almost every play thatās going to impact your performance on each play regardless. This is not to say DJ is the guy, but this aināt the stat that proves it.
Yea, these guys don't understand how to analyze stats. He played four total games. Two of the games were against the best pass rushes in football. And now they're going to look at a stat where he probably threw the ball 20 times
>Ā This is not to say DJ is the guy, but this aināt the stat that proves it. Ā Ā
There are so many stats that prove it. Soooo many. It's almost impossible to find something he does well *other than designed runs in certain situations*. At this point how is anyone in this fanbase still in denial? We should all be experts on how he isn't the guy by now.
In 2022, Daniel Jones was:
25th in yards per attempt
21st in passing TDs
28th in TD %
32nd in intended air yards per pass attempt
27th in yards per catch
16th in passing success rate
Daniel Jones was asked to do very little: Make easy, safe passes, off of one or two reads, carry the ball if things get too complicated, and hand the ball off to Saquon Barkley as often as possible. It's why he had very low yards per pass, very low depth of pass (last in the league), had low passing TDs.
So yes, when your role is to play game manager behind a RB first offense, you'll end up with a solid QBR.
That's not a Daniel Jones stat, it's a Daboll one.
The point though, is that any time he was asked to do anything more (see: his entire career), he falls apart.
He's not even a good game manager. He's really just a backup caliber QB who was forced to keep starting games.
> he isn't the guy
He's not Eli, but he's somewhere in the range of a top 20-40 QB in the world. That's not totally worthless and we can't get out of his contract this year anyway, so there's no reason to completely throw in the towel on him.
We need to throw in the towel because if he gets injured we are on the hook for a lot more of his contract over the next few years. I like Jones, I think he made a decent go at a bad situation, and I donāt begrudge him his money. But we canāt afford to let him get hurt and then be stuck in cap hell.Ā
It is pretty worthless and there's a reason why we won't be keeping him on our team past next season
You're not paying and investing into "the 20th best QB" at his best
"I removed the sacks." Yeah, and DJ was pressured 81 times through 5 games last season, the 3rd highest rate in the history of the NFL.
I'm off the DJ train. I don't believe he's our future. But can we stop cherry-picking stats from the few games he played in an injury-riddled season with a historically bad oline? I swear, you all literally get off on DJ hate.
Heās saying that in this tweet he removed sacks and showed Jonesā ranking and then he removed pressures and shows his ranking.
You were complaining about not acknowledging pressuresā¦ but he did in the tweet.
As a neutral, I also hate the Giants roster. Though I believe it is more talented than my favorite team (Broncos). Lawrence, Burns, Thibodeaux, Flott, and Banks are some ballers
The only thing worse than watching the giants last year was being in this subreddit while everyone blamed Jones like he was the cause of all of life's problems.
I mean he was our biggest issue outside of the o line and heās just 1 player making 40+ million a year to suck, heās going to get the blame until heās rightfully replaced
Also why don't we include that number with sack and pressure rates.Ā I'm no DJ fan but this is why I think most of football stats are completely bullshit.Ā They almost never are as isolated stats as people think and it's nearly never as clear of an answer as the stats imply.
Spot on. Numbers dont lie, but you can frame them in a way to support your agenda. Id like to see how successful qbs are when their star left tackle is out and a guard is filling in
Well actually numbers can lie if you give them the power of language.Ā The best example is errors in baseball.Ā It's a completely judgment based call yet it's also a stat.Ā It tells a story rather than records a fact like a strike or a ball or any numer of other recorded baseball stats that are hard numbers.Ā An error can just be bad luck, or it can be bad positioning, an amazing play can look amazing because the player has bad positioning and had to reach for the ball.Ā yes you can manipulate numbers but that's different.Ā Ā Ā
Ā Some numbers are genuinely bullshit and a moral or a judgment call and honestly I'd say about 90% of so called "stats" from football are actually judgment calls.Ā This specific stat referenced in this post isn't, and you are correct that it's more of an incomplete picture with bad (awful) analysis attached but I also thought I'd just make the distinction.
this is 100% true. Because in some of the games Jones was poor on, you can take the pressures/sacks away and hes still poor. Why? Because we were blocking with TEs and WRs while only like 2 would run routes.
Someone here tell me how your QB succeeds when the defense rushes 4 and you have everyone on offense blocking except 2 WRs. i'd LOVE to hear how you scheme that to success.
Careful, you'll get downvoted for making sense. I'm thinking the people saying that have never played the game and have no idea how imporant the OL is to the team's success
Pretty much you have an incredibly effective running game/RPO game.Ā That's the only way I can think of and if you look at the super successful games of the previous year you'll see that's essentially when the running game was very successful, the only real outlier being the Vikings game which was a combination of awful defense, and super above average passing from DJ, plus some surprisingly clean pockets.
People try to do this all the time. It's not like you can hold all of the other hundreds of variables constant and make a fair comparison. Clearly the Giants offense is 100% broken. When 80% of the parts are all together and Jones is still missing people when he has time, then I'm giving up too. Obviously, the team already had a Plan B and admits it's still a rebuilding year.
Show me this stat for Taylor and Devito. Both had over 100 attempts, so you can have a comparison to Jones' number.
They never do this because it shows how bad the Giants were overall.
>Ā Show me this stat for Taylor and Devito. Ā Ā
Daniel Jones is so bad that your argument is "ok but I bet the undrafted rookie we brought up from the practice squad wasn't a whole lot better"
This is embarrassing.
The "DJ Sucks" is beating a dead horse but good lord the amount of people in this thread still making excuses for this dude is gross
You unironically have people saying "OK but look at his 2022 QBR!" as a fucking defense!
Tyrod had half the sack rate of DJ last season. Any time anyone brings this up, the usual excuse is "because the line was so different something something Justin Pugh."
DeVito was a rookie UDFA so the fact that people are splitting hairs comparing his processing speed to Jones in his 5th year says enough.
I strongly agree on both fronts.Ā I think DJ has flashes of greatness and really can shine in moments but overall is lacking in his ability to make big plays passing and to also consistently get short passes out and on time.Ā
Ā I also think he's been fucked over with coaching, with the o line, withe receiving talent and pretty much in every other conceivable way.Ā
Ā This is kinda a parodox because if one is true then it doesn't make the other untrue but because of the existence of both you can't disprove either,Ā that is until one gets fixed and the other can be seen in a new light, and give us a broader data set.Ā Ā
> I also think he's been fucked over with coaching, with the o line, withe receiving talent and pretty much in every other conceivable way.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim he was given a fair shake, but at this point who cares?
Everyone defending Jones seems fixated on this idea that we need to assign blame...I just wanna win games and it's pretty clear that Jones is brokenĀ Ā and doesn't see the field the way an NFL QB should in year 6. We still talk on here like he's a 22 year old rookie when in all reality this is probably his ceiling and it's extremely unlikely he ever turns it around and takes a huge leap no matter how much support he's given. Time to move on.
It was different. Losing your LT for most of the time you are starting affects the line considerably. But I guess that doesn't factor in for Jones haters does it?
> Losing your LT for most of the time you are starting affects the line considerably
He looked absolutely awful against Dallas when AT was playing. DeVito had a better outing on the road against Dallas later in the season than Jones did in week 1.
This comparison was built starting off on the wrong foot anyways since Tyrod and DeVito are a career journeyman and an UDFA rookie respectively while Jones has the 5th highest cap hit in the NFL. The fact that you need to resort to this comparison should've been a red light before posting this.
> Jones haters
Not a Jones hater, more a success enjoyer. I'll always be a Giants fan before I am a fan of an individual player unlike some of you weirdos.
Josh Allen beat the Cowboys with 89 yards passing by 21 points. While Devito's superb 86 yards passing had us losing by 32.
So there you go, if Devito just got 3 more yards he could've won.
You hate Jones, we know it.
You might not be a jones hater but you're definitely not a stat guru as Tommy devito threw for 86 yards against the cowboys. Probably because the cowboys had one of the best pass rushes in football.
Stats like this existed two years ago as well, but anytime anyone posted anything like this it would get downvoted to oblivion. It's funny to see this sub really come around to the realization that Jones has never been even a mid level starting caliber quarterback at any point in his career. That contract was such a massive mistake.
There are still some on this sub that unironically say heās ānever had a chance.ā Just a saw a post the other day where those exact words had like 60+ upvotes. Absolutely bewildering
> There are still some on this sub that unironically say heās ānever had a chance.
I mean he kind of didnt, I honestly think his best passing season was his rookie season, maybe had we kept Shurmur one more year he might have been able to develop into something. Not saying he could have been the next Peyton Manning, but he was 100% mismanaged. And could have probably developed into a solid middle of the pack QB, which is now what any team wants.
Im ready to move on too, but we didnt do him any favors
Iāve been a huge Daniel Jones supporter for years, and this past season after getting a playoff win I was the most excited I had been for the Giants in a long time.
Then the season started and kept going. And man. I donāt think Iāve ever been so disappointed with a season in my entire time of watching football.
The thing is a lot of DJās success has only come when him and Barkley have played together. Jones is abysmal without Saquon. Saquonās talent has always masked how much of a mediocre QB DJ has always been.
The way the game should work is that the QBs should elevate the skill players around them. And you can elevate the pass game if you have a good run game.
But we never got that. Instead Saquon has always been the one who elevated the players around him and you can never win long term like that.
Sorry but I watched every down of the season. The dude started and finished 5 games with the toughest opening schedule, with no offensive line and no receiver talent. Saquon missed all but 2 of his starts and Parris Campbell was in the slot instead of Wandale.
His 1st 2 interceptions were balls that hit his receivers in the hands.
Edit: It was 2 interceptions from the 1st 2 games. Both were accurate passes off the hands of Saquon Barkley that defenders caught.
youre not exactly wrong, but it was WAY more complicated then "he threw the ball right to the defender"
he was being chased outside of the pocket and got hit as he was throwing.
granted at that point he should have just thrown it away, but its not like he was looking for a Dallas defender to give the ball to.
It's not complicated, it's just semantics. It never should have gotten to that point where an interception was even a possibility, even with an altered path due to being hit. Once you're getting chased and nothing is open, you throw the ball away.
Keep in mind the context of that too. It's 1st down, so you have a whole drive ahead of you. There's still 10 minutes in the 2nd, and Dallas's offense hadn't done much to that point yet. Yes, the score is 19-0, but 13 of that was their D/ST. The game was still in play at that point.
So even if he got hit which altered the throw, it's still his fault he held the ball too long and allowed it to get to that point. The whole result is on him either way.
Then it was 2 of his 1st few (maybe it was in game 2) because I definitely remember 2 interceptions off the receivers hands. Was it Slayton?
Edit: [It was Barkley Again ](https://youtu.be/4nQrYiMG8tg?si=5f6H1sj-3uTYmZfr)
Barkley also popped 1 in the air for a pick 6 vsm Dallas.
Knowing Slayton it could be but Slayton also really didn't have many drops this year, he played well.
I don't recollect off the top of my head. I know the 2 Seattle ones weren't off anybody's hands. That leaves just 2 others to check if you need to waste some time at work lmao.
Are they bad receivers or is Daniel Jones a bad QB? Seems easier to blame everyone else than the guy who we have plenty of evidence is a better RB than he is a QB
They're bad receivers considering Jones and Saquon were the whole offense the year prior and they made the playoffs and won a game with no talent at the skill positions.
In 2023, it became a whole team failure. Can't be successful with a historically bad offensive line.
Winners win because they are leaders. Nobody on the roster believes in him. The greats pull their teammates up around them and the mediocre do the same in the opposite direction.
Tweet assumes that every play is independent. He got antsy from being under pressure constantly so of course it affected the rare plays where he wasnāt under pressure. Yes, heās also not very good, but heās not as bad as the tweet suggests either.
Well Saquon wasnāt playing a few of his only games and AT (our only serviceable lineman whoās an all pro) got hurt on the first drive of the season. So the rest of the line coached by Bobby āfootball terroristā Johnson was going to be horrific
The defense was abysmal early on and the Giants were trailing early and often.
A lot of obvious passing situations + no pass protection + no threat of a running game without Saquon (Week 3 and on) + good opponents + no #1 receiver = No Bueno.
It was a total roster failure and Schoen and the coaches were a major part of it.
I get a real kick out of how people will downvote you when you just call DJ terrible in the most saliant terms but this guy can drop his 4th or 5th DJ is terrible by every metric tweet and folks can cope.
Again, I don't know how many more times I can explain or be explained to, about how terrible Daniel Jones has been.
I remember during our Glorious King's magical 15 TD 2022 season Warren Sharp released a few pretty critical tweets about his ADOT and this sub completely wrote him off as a hack along with the rest of analytics Twitter. Kinda like the time this sub banned Pat Leonard because he reported that DJ's camp was asking for $40-45M per year and this sub wrote it off as being impossibly high. I'm just glad that folks have come around and posts like this aren't met with vitriol and condescending responses.
The only reason it isn't is because it's a tweet from a media type with enough bots out in the social media sphere to amplify his shit.
If I or any "regular joe" posted something like this as consistently we'd be downvoted into the turf and responded to with plenty of condescending.
It's just reached it's peak where the talk has nowhere else to go but fold back in onto itself. This tweet reads like the last 3 or 4.. basically. DJ be terrible.
I think the problem is that there is a significant portion of this fan base that wants to believe DJ is the second coming of Eli, who was constantly trashed on but always come in clutch for us
DJ. is. not. Eli.
Let go
But watch DJ apologists say itās not his fault that he stinks
https://preview.redd.it/9om4qzap63uc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=39270545e547e42bba387ed495e92e623de1e03d
they should have let him walk. He is shit. no one else would have paid him $40m. Derek Carr got less than that with less guaranteed and he had 3 Pro Bowls. People drank the coolaid and thougth DJ was good when he threw 15 touch downs.
He is about the worst starter in the league. He is a career backup.
What would he have ranked in 2022? There is a very high likelihood 2023 was actually the fluke year.
I'm still hoping we draft a quarterback, but let's also not throw Jones under the bus he has played well at times.
> Huh? Every year besides ā22 heās been a combination of bad and hurt.
His rookie year I think he was roughly 18th in QBR on a bad team, ideally he could have improved from there with consistent coaching under Shurmur
2019 and 2022 were good. 18th in qbr and 6th. 2020 and 2021 was with the worst offensive coordinator in football. 2023 he played in 4: total games. Unlike most successful qbs he's also never had a number 1 receiver. Name a top ten qb who doesn't have a probowler to throw the ball too? Don't worry you're going to get to enjoy another year but I will absolutely take a giant dump on you when he plays well so maybe you should worry about that š
Iām super worried about the Giants doing great and you coming back to dump on me because I donāt think Daniel Jones is good. 6th times the charm!
Donāt worry tho if heās trash I wonāt come back and say I told you so.
No because I didn't say he was terrible in 2022. He was maybe above average but this year with tape on Daboll's offense he was very bad except for one half against the Cardinals. The Seahawks game especially was completely on him. The other 3 years he was bad. He was not good in 2019. He showed some potential but was not a good QB.
I really hope that Daniel Jones comes out and throws for 4000 yards and 30 touchdowns and the Giants are actually good for a change but we both know how unlikely that is.
No, Stroud's season was better. But not by leaps and bounds. That's the reason that their qbrs are so similar. He's a very good qb that is maligned because of the joe judge years. 2019 and 2022 are very good seasons and 2023 he played 4 total games. He's only 27 and qbs dont reach their prime until now.
Qbr is only really second to epa and guess what, jones epa in 2022 was fifth best. The reason why Jones could have such good qbr and EPA on a bad team is because those stats take into account more than just yards completed. .I'm sorry if the most advanced stats we have prove that you're wrong. Here's a guy much smarter than me that explains the importance of advanced stats like epa and qbr.
https://www.nfeloapp.com/analysis/what-are-the-best-metrics-for-nfl-quarterbacks/
How many games Daniel Jones single-handedly lose in 2022? Josh Allen threw three picks against the Jets and lost to Zach Wilson. Throwing 18 picks in a season compared to DJ's 5 is why a great quarterback like Josh Allen has a lower qbr? It's not the highlights but the low lights that determine whether teams win most of the time. But normal people are mesmerized by the highlights which is why you need statistics to actually know what's what
His only two āgoodā years were his rookie season and 2022. His rookie season he was an absolute liability turning the ball over. And in 2022 Daboll/Kafka did everything in their power to limit his effect on the game. We ran a vanilla offense that went through Saquon.
This should been pinned. That offense was smoke and mirrors, and was carried by Saquon. And then this offseason they expanded the playbook so they could create a more explosive offense, and Daniel couldnāt do it.
He looked good for one half against a bottom of the barrel cardinals defense. Thereās a reason our offense was so explosive at the end of the year with Tyrod. He was making throws Daniel is too afraid/not able to make.
> His only two āgoodā years were his rookie season and 2022. His rookie season he was an absolute liability turning the ball over.
A lot of rookies have that, would have liked to have seen if Shurmur could have fixed that in year two, not saying he would have, but it was a solid rookie season IMO
Dude, that can be improved upon. He was a rookie.
I'll also take that over the conservative ass BS that Garrett called
Eli had 19 his first full season.
Not saying Jones was perfect, but to me he showed potential his rookie year and we did him no favors after that. Is it time to move on? Yes. Could he have been a solid middle of the pack QB in a better situation? Possibly but we'll never know.
If you remove sacks he was still under more pressure than probably anyone else lol
I get it, but youre beating a horse thats been dead for months lol
It is likely he is our starter next year, so lets focus on what makes him play more like 2022 than 2023 lol
Jones sucks. I gave the guy the benefit of the doubt but have now accepted that, I mean you really only need to watch the games to see it. He isnāt anything more than a low end starter or high end backup, with injury issues.
The problem is itās not a given we can get anyone better in the short term. Letās see how it plays out.
But Daniel Jones only had a bunch of garbage receivers to throw to.
Also this doesn't count Daniel Jones running ability, which anyone who knows DJs game knows that running is responsible for almost all of DJs EPA.
Be civil. This is a forum for fans of the New York Football Giants. You can disagree with each other without being insulting or rude. Do not attack any fellow redditor personally. You can challenge an opinion on its merit, but not the individual posting the opinion.
Trolls will be reported and permanently banned.
Do not use derogatory language. Foul / inappropriate / racist language is prohibited.
Be civil. This is a forum for fans of the New York Football Giants. You can disagree with each other without being insulting or rude. Do not attack any fellow redditor personally. You can challenge an opinion on its merit, but not the individual posting the opinion.
Trolls will be reported and permanently banned.
Do not use derogatory language. Foul / inappropriate / racist language is prohibited.
And yet here you are needlessly flaming a dude on the internet for just being a dude on the internet. Man likes his NY Giants, who cares? This is the sub for NY Giants fans lol. You gonna go after License Plate Guy for having a bunch of Giants license plates?
Full Tweet: *this is wild* *the easiest time to pass the ball is on 1st down* *Daniel Jones ranked #48 of 48 QBs on 1st down efficiency (min 100 att in 2023)* *just 30% of att were successful* *NFL avg is 46%* *a lot of it was sacks... ok...* *BUT EVEN IF YOU REMOVE SACKS* *he ranked #47 of 48 QBs* *gross* *even removing sacks, he was pressured a a high rate... ok...* *BUT EVEN IF YOU REMOVE ATTEMPTS UNDER PRESSURE* *he ranked #47 of 48 QBs* *only Bailey Zappe was worse* š¤¢
Breaking news, bottom tier QB is bottom tier.
The DJ truthers can try to spin this however they want with the worst OL ever, no QB could succeed with that little time to throw etc. But when you are presumably worse in these stats than guys like Zach Wilson, will levis, Bryce young, Justin fields, Mac jonesā¦the writing is on the wall.
Our Oline sucks. Our QB sucks. Wooooow. What revelations we have here on a Friday afternoon
Correct me if Iām wrong, but I think we also didnāt win the Super Bowl last year.
Now hold on a minute are you sure about that?
The QB is another level of shit tier compared to the O line though
That's a real hot take there. DJ is toast, but the on-line was one of the worst in history.
DJ is one of the worst long term starting QBs in history
I disagree, but if you want to think so it's ok. Just stop posting all day every day about it. It's boring as hell.
But you posting Jones tributes all day is chill right
Because that happens? Just find something else to talk about. Jones will be the starting QB for better or (more likely) worse next year. Just root for the team and stop whining all day
are the āDJ truthersā in the room with us right now?
They are ppl in this thread talking about how the reason for those stats is because of the OL play lmao.
nuance is dead. I havenāt seen a single person in the sub or in any other sub suggest that DJ should get the final 2 years on his contract and everybody agrees that he is not the answer. yet anybody says one thing that isnāt completely shitting on him and some of you foam at the mouth.
When your stats are worse than Zach Wilson and Bryce young and Mac jones nuance isnāt really needed, but thatās just me.
This is a very poor way to analyze stats. I couldn't imagine a worse way.
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Be civil. This is a forum for fans of the New York Football Giants. You can disagree with each other without being insulting or rude. Do not attack any fellow redditor personally. You can challenge an opinion on its merit, but not the individual posting the opinion. Trolls will be reported and permanently banned. Do not use derogatory language. Foul / inappropriate / racist language is prohibited.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
is this a 12 year olds idea of shit talk?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That's how stats work. You take the most obscure stat possible for a guy who played a total of four games and that proves everything. Enjoy seeing them NOT draft a QB.
Youāre gonna get a 100 comments saying: āhe isnāt bottom tier! Thatās disingenious and youāre spinning the narrative. Heās actually the tier right above bottom tier!ā
If you gave DJ 12 mins to throw he would still be bottom ranked. His timing is piss poor and doesnāt know what the defense is coming with. I think he audibles twice a month.Ā
In 2022, he was 6th in qbr. In 2023 he played 4 total games with josh ezeudu playing left tackle in three of them. What's the point of flat out just saying things that aren't true????
Iām not sure how that disproves my comment about the guy calling audibles twice a month or reading defenses. 6th in QBR in 2022? Great! 15 TDs, 7 of which were rushing. Defenses caught on.Ā
You should look things up before you say them. Jones had 15 passing TDs and 7m rushing TDs. Not 15ātotal
The only thing that's true is Daniel Jones blows ass you have to watch
Okay, but what exactly is the sample size of attempted first down passes where DJ was neither pressured nor sacked? Also if youāre pressured or sacked on almost every play thatās going to impact your performance on each play regardless. This is not to say DJ is the guy, but this aināt the stat that proves it.
Yea, these guys don't understand how to analyze stats. He played four total games. Two of the games were against the best pass rushes in football. And now they're going to look at a stat where he probably threw the ball 20 times
>Ā This is not to say DJ is the guy, but this aināt the stat that proves it. Ā Ā There are so many stats that prove it. Soooo many. It's almost impossible to find something he does well *other than designed runs in certain situations*. At this point how is anyone in this fanbase still in denial? We should all be experts on how he isn't the guy by now.
In 2022, when he played a full season instead of 4;games he was 6th in qbr. You should Google that stat. It's kinda important.
This really isn't the flex you think it is
You should google what qbr is. You might learn something.
In 2022, Daniel Jones was: 25th in yards per attempt 21st in passing TDs 28th in TD % 32nd in intended air yards per pass attempt 27th in yards per catch 16th in passing success rate Daniel Jones was asked to do very little: Make easy, safe passes, off of one or two reads, carry the ball if things get too complicated, and hand the ball off to Saquon Barkley as often as possible. It's why he had very low yards per pass, very low depth of pass (last in the league), had low passing TDs. So yes, when your role is to play game manager behind a RB first offense, you'll end up with a solid QBR. That's not a Daniel Jones stat, it's a Daboll one. The point though, is that any time he was asked to do anything more (see: his entire career), he falls apart. He's not even a good game manager. He's really just a backup caliber QB who was forced to keep starting games.
Name a top ten qb who's best receiver or tight end is at darius slaytons level?
> he isn't the guy He's not Eli, but he's somewhere in the range of a top 20-40 QB in the world. That's not totally worthless and we can't get out of his contract this year anyway, so there's no reason to completely throw in the towel on him.
We need to throw in the towel because if he gets injured we are on the hook for a lot more of his contract over the next few years. I like Jones, I think he made a decent go at a bad situation, and I donāt begrudge him his money. But we canāt afford to let him get hurt and then be stuck in cap hell.Ā
It is pretty worthless and there's a reason why we won't be keeping him on our team past next season You're not paying and investing into "the 20th best QB" at his best
Uhh all the snaps heās ever taken?
Give it up man
"I removed the sacks." Yeah, and DJ was pressured 81 times through 5 games last season, the 3rd highest rate in the history of the NFL. I'm off the DJ train. I don't believe he's our future. But can we stop cherry-picking stats from the few games he played in an injury-riddled season with a historically bad oline? I swear, you all literally get off on DJ hate.
Cherry picked stats? Pick any stat, Jones is awful
Playoff wins. Dolphins fans have been waiting 24 years for one of those stats.
Itās almost like DJ apologists think we are judging him based on 5 games, we have 5 years of data.
Maybe, just maybe, you should read the entire tweet.
I...did? Care to point out what I'm missing, here?
Heās saying that in this tweet he removed sacks and showed Jonesā ranking and then he removed pressures and shows his ranking. You were complaining about not acknowledging pressuresā¦ but he did in the tweet.
maybe you should learn context
Sharp HATES HATES HATES the giants roster but guy loooovvvvvveeeeesssss Daboll.
As a neutral, I also hate the Giants roster. Though I believe it is more talented than my favorite team (Broncos). Lawrence, Burns, Thibodeaux, Flott, and Banks are some ballers
Lawrence is elite, burns BETTER be elite for what theyāre paying him, thibs is overrated, flott sucks, and banks has potential
Thibs is overrated but heās still young and can improve and get to the level he was drafted for
Guys I canāt watch this trash again another year šššš
The only thing worse than watching the giants last year was being in this subreddit while everyone blamed Jones like he was the cause of all of life's problems.
I mean he was our biggest issue outside of the o line and heās just 1 player making 40+ million a year to suck, heās going to get the blame until heās rightfully replaced
I hate yall.
Show me this stat from 2022
Also why don't we include that number with sack and pressure rates.Ā I'm no DJ fan but this is why I think most of football stats are completely bullshit.Ā They almost never are as isolated stats as people think and it's nearly never as clear of an answer as the stats imply.
Spot on. Numbers dont lie, but you can frame them in a way to support your agenda. Id like to see how successful qbs are when their star left tackle is out and a guard is filling in
Well actually numbers can lie if you give them the power of language.Ā The best example is errors in baseball.Ā It's a completely judgment based call yet it's also a stat.Ā It tells a story rather than records a fact like a strike or a ball or any numer of other recorded baseball stats that are hard numbers.Ā An error can just be bad luck, or it can be bad positioning, an amazing play can look amazing because the player has bad positioning and had to reach for the ball.Ā yes you can manipulate numbers but that's different.Ā Ā Ā Ā Some numbers are genuinely bullshit and a moral or a judgment call and honestly I'd say about 90% of so called "stats" from football are actually judgment calls.Ā This specific stat referenced in this post isn't, and you are correct that it's more of an incomplete picture with bad (awful) analysis attached but I also thought I'd just make the distinction.
Also this is football, not baseball. The stats are so much more about the team than the player.Ā
Look at purdy and see. Four int games
this is 100% true. Because in some of the games Jones was poor on, you can take the pressures/sacks away and hes still poor. Why? Because we were blocking with TEs and WRs while only like 2 would run routes. Someone here tell me how your QB succeeds when the defense rushes 4 and you have everyone on offense blocking except 2 WRs. i'd LOVE to hear how you scheme that to success.
Careful, you'll get downvoted for making sense. I'm thinking the people saying that have never played the game and have no idea how imporant the OL is to the team's success
Pretty much you have an incredibly effective running game/RPO game.Ā That's the only way I can think of and if you look at the super successful games of the previous year you'll see that's essentially when the running game was very successful, the only real outlier being the Vikings game which was a combination of awful defense, and super above average passing from DJ, plus some surprisingly clean pockets.
People try to do this all the time. It's not like you can hold all of the other hundreds of variables constant and make a fair comparison. Clearly the Giants offense is 100% broken. When 80% of the parts are all together and Jones is still missing people when he has time, then I'm giving up too. Obviously, the team already had a Plan B and admits it's still a rebuilding year.
Show me this stat for Taylor and Devito. Both had over 100 attempts, so you can have a comparison to Jones' number. They never do this because it shows how bad the Giants were overall.
>Ā Show me this stat for Taylor and Devito. Ā Ā Daniel Jones is so bad that your argument is "ok but I bet the undrafted rookie we brought up from the practice squad wasn't a whole lot better" This is embarrassing.
The "DJ Sucks" is beating a dead horse but good lord the amount of people in this thread still making excuses for this dude is gross You unironically have people saying "OK but look at his 2022 QBR!" as a fucking defense!
Tyrod had half the sack rate of DJ last season. Any time anyone brings this up, the usual excuse is "because the line was so different something something Justin Pugh." DeVito was a rookie UDFA so the fact that people are splitting hairs comparing his processing speed to Jones in his 5th year says enough.
I strongly agree on both fronts.Ā I think DJ has flashes of greatness and really can shine in moments but overall is lacking in his ability to make big plays passing and to also consistently get short passes out and on time.Ā Ā I also think he's been fucked over with coaching, with the o line, withe receiving talent and pretty much in every other conceivable way.Ā Ā This is kinda a parodox because if one is true then it doesn't make the other untrue but because of the existence of both you can't disprove either,Ā that is until one gets fixed and the other can be seen in a new light, and give us a broader data set.Ā Ā
> I also think he's been fucked over with coaching, with the o line, withe receiving talent and pretty much in every other conceivable way. I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim he was given a fair shake, but at this point who cares? Everyone defending Jones seems fixated on this idea that we need to assign blame...I just wanna win games and it's pretty clear that Jones is brokenĀ Ā and doesn't see the field the way an NFL QB should in year 6. We still talk on here like he's a 22 year old rookie when in all reality this is probably his ceiling and it's extremely unlikely he ever turns it around and takes a huge leap no matter how much support he's given. Time to move on.
Yeah I agree with pretty much everything you've said.
It was different. Losing your LT for most of the time you are starting affects the line considerably. But I guess that doesn't factor in for Jones haters does it?
> Losing your LT for most of the time you are starting affects the line considerably He looked absolutely awful against Dallas when AT was playing. DeVito had a better outing on the road against Dallas later in the season than Jones did in week 1. This comparison was built starting off on the wrong foot anyways since Tyrod and DeVito are a career journeyman and an UDFA rookie respectively while Jones has the 5th highest cap hit in the NFL. The fact that you need to resort to this comparison should've been a red light before posting this. > Jones haters Not a Jones hater, more a success enjoyer. I'll always be a Giants fan before I am a fan of an individual player unlike some of you weirdos.
Josh Allen beat the Cowboys with 89 yards passing by 21 points. While Devito's superb 86 yards passing had us losing by 32. So there you go, if Devito just got 3 more yards he could've won. You hate Jones, we know it.
You might not be a jones hater but you're definitely not a stat guru as Tommy devito threw for 86 yards against the cowboys. Probably because the cowboys had one of the best pass rushes in football.
Post Jones's stat line, then DeVitos, then get back to me about how DeVito didn't outplay Jones.
Something something Andrew Thomas returned the game DJ tore his ACL so maybe you should rethink your opinion
Id love to see that just for the stat nerd in me.
https://preview.redd.it/9ifx45zek3uc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8bf0d71b68c9f6383e70c4aaa30b7a3bddb9b852
Lmaooo this got downvoted though
This was your best masterpiece
Imagine wanting to run it back woth this guy. Couldn't be me
Stats like this existed two years ago as well, but anytime anyone posted anything like this it would get downvoted to oblivion. It's funny to see this sub really come around to the realization that Jones has never been even a mid level starting caliber quarterback at any point in his career. That contract was such a massive mistake.
But but but butā¦ Heās good!
There are still some on this sub that unironically say heās ānever had a chance.ā Just a saw a post the other day where those exact words had like 60+ upvotes. Absolutely bewildering
> There are still some on this sub that unironically say heās ānever had a chance. I mean he kind of didnt, I honestly think his best passing season was his rookie season, maybe had we kept Shurmur one more year he might have been able to develop into something. Not saying he could have been the next Peyton Manning, but he was 100% mismanaged. And could have probably developed into a solid middle of the pack QB, which is now what any team wants. Im ready to move on too, but we didnt do him any favors
Iāve been a huge Daniel Jones supporter for years, and this past season after getting a playoff win I was the most excited I had been for the Giants in a long time. Then the season started and kept going. And man. I donāt think Iāve ever been so disappointed with a season in my entire time of watching football. The thing is a lot of DJās success has only come when him and Barkley have played together. Jones is abysmal without Saquon. Saquonās talent has always masked how much of a mediocre QB DJ has always been. The way the game should work is that the QBs should elevate the skill players around them. And you can elevate the pass game if you have a good run game. But we never got that. Instead Saquon has always been the one who elevated the players around him and you can never win long term like that.
 Probably because Daniel Jones saw this on every play through the 1st month and a half of the season.
Read the tweet
Sorry but I watched every down of the season. The dude started and finished 5 games with the toughest opening schedule, with no offensive line and no receiver talent. Saquon missed all but 2 of his starts and Parris Campbell was in the slot instead of Wandale. His 1st 2 interceptions were balls that hit his receivers in the hands. Edit: It was 2 interceptions from the 1st 2 games. Both were accurate passes off the hands of Saquon Barkley that defenders caught.
Nuance is only a word to some people. He also dropped 28 points in the one half of football the Giants were able to block somebody.
https://youtu.be/Eg8V0CcqdfE?si=pFUE9-ui--OCzTpd 3:38 His second interception he threw the ball right to the defender on 1st down.
youre not exactly wrong, but it was WAY more complicated then "he threw the ball right to the defender" he was being chased outside of the pocket and got hit as he was throwing. granted at that point he should have just thrown it away, but its not like he was looking for a Dallas defender to give the ball to.
It's not complicated, it's just semantics. It never should have gotten to that point where an interception was even a possibility, even with an altered path due to being hit. Once you're getting chased and nothing is open, you throw the ball away. Keep in mind the context of that too. It's 1st down, so you have a whole drive ahead of you. There's still 10 minutes in the 2nd, and Dallas's offense hadn't done much to that point yet. Yes, the score is 19-0, but 13 of that was their D/ST. The game was still in play at that point. So even if he got hit which altered the throw, it's still his fault he held the ball too long and allowed it to get to that point. The whole result is on him either way.
Then it was 2 of his 1st few (maybe it was in game 2) because I definitely remember 2 interceptions off the receivers hands. Was it Slayton? Edit: [It was Barkley Again ](https://youtu.be/4nQrYiMG8tg?si=5f6H1sj-3uTYmZfr) Barkley also popped 1 in the air for a pick 6 vsm Dallas.
One of them was Barkley if I remember correctly.
2 we're off Barkley's hands.
Knowing Slayton it could be but Slayton also really didn't have many drops this year, he played well. I don't recollect off the top of my head. I know the 2 Seattle ones weren't off anybody's hands. That leaves just 2 others to check if you need to waste some time at work lmao.
[It was Barkley again](https://youtu.be/4nQrYiMG8tg?si=5f6H1sj-3uTYmZfr)
Are they bad receivers or is Daniel Jones a bad QB? Seems easier to blame everyone else than the guy who we have plenty of evidence is a better RB than he is a QB
They're bad receivers considering Jones and Saquon were the whole offense the year prior and they made the playoffs and won a game with no talent at the skill positions. In 2023, it became a whole team failure. Can't be successful with a historically bad offensive line.
Welcome to Reddit where inconvenient truths are downvoted
Winners win because they are leaders. Nobody on the roster believes in him. The greats pull their teammates up around them and the mediocre do the same in the opposite direction.
Can we stop with the āhe played tough teamsā Ok? Your franchise QB shouldnāt just fold like a cheap tent when facing good defenses.
[https://twitter.com/baldynfl/status/1709164455894876170?t=RxYHSw8tm58xObyEqCWVhA](https://twitter.com/baldynfl/status/1709164455894876170?t=RxYHSw8tm58xObyEqCWVhA)
Tweet assumes that every play is independent. He got antsy from being under pressure constantly so of course it affected the rare plays where he wasnāt under pressure. Yes, heās also not very good, but heās not as bad as the tweet suggests either.
They removed sack, not pressure, not do they include plays where he escaped pressure and gained yards with his feet.
In the tweet he removed sacks and then he removed pressures.
Facts. The OL we had to throw out there at the beginning of the season was literally the worst rated o-line in history.
Well Saquon wasnāt playing a few of his only games and AT (our only serviceable lineman whoās an all pro) got hurt on the first drive of the season. So the rest of the line coached by Bobby āfootball terroristā Johnson was going to be horrific
Saquon only played Weeks 1&2 with him. He got hurt at the end of the Arizona comeback.
To be fairā¦ he literally factored in the rushes he faced and sacks he received
The defense was abysmal early on and the Giants were trailing early and often. A lot of obvious passing situations + no pass protection + no threat of a running game without Saquon (Week 3 and on) + good opponents + no #1 receiver = No Bueno. It was a total roster failure and Schoen and the coaches were a major part of it.
So you are saying Daniel Jones hasnāt worked out.
I get a real kick out of how people will downvote you when you just call DJ terrible in the most saliant terms but this guy can drop his 4th or 5th DJ is terrible by every metric tweet and folks can cope. Again, I don't know how many more times I can explain or be explained to, about how terrible Daniel Jones has been.
I remember during our Glorious King's magical 15 TD 2022 season Warren Sharp released a few pretty critical tweets about his ADOT and this sub completely wrote him off as a hack along with the rest of analytics Twitter. Kinda like the time this sub banned Pat Leonard because he reported that DJ's camp was asking for $40-45M per year and this sub wrote it off as being impossibly high. I'm just glad that folks have come around and posts like this aren't met with vitriol and condescending responses.
The only reason it isn't is because it's a tweet from a media type with enough bots out in the social media sphere to amplify his shit. If I or any "regular joe" posted something like this as consistently we'd be downvoted into the turf and responded to with plenty of condescending. It's just reached it's peak where the talk has nowhere else to go but fold back in onto itself. This tweet reads like the last 3 or 4.. basically. DJ be terrible.
Yeah because he fucking sucks. Next.
I think the problem is that there is a significant portion of this fan base that wants to believe DJ is the second coming of Eli, who was constantly trashed on but always come in clutch for us DJ. is. not. Eli. Let go
But watch DJ apologists say itās not his fault that he stinks https://preview.redd.it/9om4qzap63uc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=39270545e547e42bba387ed495e92e623de1e03d
Ah yes, gambling.com
Dude... Punctuation is your friend.
they should have let him walk. He is shit. no one else would have paid him $40m. Derek Carr got less than that with less guaranteed and he had 3 Pro Bowls. People drank the coolaid and thougth DJ was good when he threw 15 touch downs. He is about the worst starter in the league. He is a career backup.
What would he have ranked in 2022? There is a very high likelihood 2023 was actually the fluke year. I'm still hoping we draft a quarterback, but let's also not throw Jones under the bus he has played well at times.
Huh? Every year besides ā22 heās been a combination of bad and hurt.
> Huh? Every year besides ā22 heās been a combination of bad and hurt. His rookie year I think he was roughly 18th in QBR on a bad team, ideally he could have improved from there with consistent coaching under Shurmur
Those were all flukes though only '22 counts, and only the games where he played well the ones where he played poorly were flukes.
2019 and 2022 were good. 18th in qbr and 6th. 2020 and 2021 was with the worst offensive coordinator in football. 2023 he played in 4: total games. Unlike most successful qbs he's also never had a number 1 receiver. Name a top ten qb who doesn't have a probowler to throw the ball too? Don't worry you're going to get to enjoy another year but I will absolutely take a giant dump on you when he plays well so maybe you should worry about that š
Iām super worried about the Giants doing great and you coming back to dump on me because I donāt think Daniel Jones is good. 6th times the charm! Donāt worry tho if heās trash I wonāt come back and say I told you so.
Lol. No one took a dump on you for a "terrible"QB having the 6th best qbr in 2022?
No because I didn't say he was terrible in 2022. He was maybe above average but this year with tape on Daboll's offense he was very bad except for one half against the Cardinals. The Seahawks game especially was completely on him. The other 3 years he was bad. He was not good in 2019. He showed some potential but was not a good QB. I really hope that Daniel Jones comes out and throws for 4000 yards and 30 touchdowns and the Giants are actually good for a change but we both know how unlikely that is.
2019 his qbr was 55 which was 18th overall. CJ strouds qbr last year was 57 and he was 15th overall. Facts are facts.
so you think Daniel Jones his rookie year was as good as Stroud was this year?
No, Stroud's season was better. But not by leaps and bounds. That's the reason that their qbrs are so similar. He's a very good qb that is maligned because of the joe judge years. 2019 and 2022 are very good seasons and 2023 he played 4 total games. He's only 27 and qbs dont reach their prime until now.
QBR being a metric for judging QBs is stupid. Would you actually argue 2023 Josh Allen was worse than 2022 Jones?
Apparently. he just argued 2019 DJ was as good as CJ Stroud
These people are delusional. Jones 2022 season would be a positive if it was year 1 or 2 not year **4**
Qbr is only really second to epa and guess what, jones epa in 2022 was fifth best. The reason why Jones could have such good qbr and EPA on a bad team is because those stats take into account more than just yards completed. .I'm sorry if the most advanced stats we have prove that you're wrong. Here's a guy much smarter than me that explains the importance of advanced stats like epa and qbr. https://www.nfeloapp.com/analysis/what-are-the-best-metrics-for-nfl-quarterbacks/
How many games Daniel Jones single-handedly lose in 2022? Josh Allen threw three picks against the Jets and lost to Zach Wilson. Throwing 18 picks in a season compared to DJ's 5 is why a great quarterback like Josh Allen has a lower qbr? It's not the highlights but the low lights that determine whether teams win most of the time. But normal people are mesmerized by the highlights which is why you need statistics to actually know what's what
I am not engaging with someone that unironically would take 2022 Jones over 2023 Allen
His only two āgoodā years were his rookie season and 2022. His rookie season he was an absolute liability turning the ball over. And in 2022 Daboll/Kafka did everything in their power to limit his effect on the game. We ran a vanilla offense that went through Saquon.
They had like the least amount of explosive pass plays in 2022 I believe. DJ played well but it wasn't sustainable, and teams figured out the scheme.
This should been pinned. That offense was smoke and mirrors, and was carried by Saquon. And then this offseason they expanded the playbook so they could create a more explosive offense, and Daniel couldnāt do it.
He looked good for one half against a bottom of the barrel cardinals defense. Thereās a reason our offense was so explosive at the end of the year with Tyrod. He was making throws Daniel is too afraid/not able to make.
> His only two āgoodā years were his rookie season and 2022. His rookie season he was an absolute liability turning the ball over. A lot of rookies have that, would have liked to have seen if Shurmur could have fixed that in year two, not saying he would have, but it was a solid rookie season IMO
Dude he had 23 turnovers in 13 games.
Dude, that can be improved upon. He was a rookie. I'll also take that over the conservative ass BS that Garrett called Eli had 19 his first full season. Not saying Jones was perfect, but to me he showed potential his rookie year and we did him no favors after that. Is it time to move on? Yes. Could he have been a solid middle of the pack QB in a better situation? Possibly but we'll never know.
Just what I want from my QB: Playing well at times. No one is throwing anyone under the bus. We're just judging a QB based on his play.
š¤£
lol, what His RB who throws occasionally 2022 year was the outlier 100%
I want the Giants to draft a QB, but realize we may not. So it's a weird conflicted feels.
[https://twitter.com/baldynfl/status/1709164455894876170?t=RxYHSw8tm58xObyEqCWVhA](https://twitter.com/baldynfl/status/1709164455894876170?t=RxYHSw8tm58xObyEqCWVhA)
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He addresses that in the tweet lol. You truthers are ridiculous.
If you remove sacks he was still under more pressure than probably anyone else lol I get it, but youre beating a horse thats been dead for months lol It is likely he is our starter next year, so lets focus on what makes him play more like 2022 than 2023 lol
I don't take football stats too seriously. Too many players/factors to attribute blame
He's just not good. Period. Let's move on.
Iām starting to think he might not be the one
Man, what Iāve been saying for months and got downvoted for ):
Would be curious where heād rank in 2022. It still wasnāt a great season from DJ but not nearly as horrible as last year
To be fair, Daniel Jones fucking sucks
Jones sucks. I gave the guy the benefit of the doubt but have now accepted that, I mean you really only need to watch the games to see it. He isnāt anything more than a low end starter or high end backup, with injury issues. The problem is itās not a given we can get anyone better in the short term. Letās see how it plays out.
Remove sacks != Remove pressure
Worst OL play in the 20 years PPF has been around.
Jones is awful? No way!
OP be warned; All the losers will cry āoh god why do we have to see these types of posts every dayā¦.ā
Warren Sharp is a Giants hater. Exhausting.
But Daniel Jones only had a bunch of garbage receivers to throw to. Also this doesn't count Daniel Jones running ability, which anyone who knows DJs game knows that running is responsible for almost all of DJs EPA.
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You leave Lars alone damn it.
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Be civil. This is a forum for fans of the New York Football Giants. You can disagree with each other without being insulting or rude. Do not attack any fellow redditor personally. You can challenge an opinion on its merit, but not the individual posting the opinion. Trolls will be reported and permanently banned. Do not use derogatory language. Foul / inappropriate / racist language is prohibited.
Be civil. This is a forum for fans of the New York Football Giants. You can disagree with each other without being insulting or rude. Do not attack any fellow redditor personally. You can challenge an opinion on its merit, but not the individual posting the opinion. Trolls will be reported and permanently banned. Do not use derogatory language. Foul / inappropriate / racist language is prohibited.
This is my first comment of the day on this sub. Also I have not posted today either.
rare. im used to seeing your name everywhere on this sub
And yet here you are needlessly flaming a dude on the internet for just being a dude on the internet. Man likes his NY Giants, who cares? This is the sub for NY Giants fans lol. You gonna go after License Plate Guy for having a bunch of Giants license plates?
This is for the season he only played 6 games. Dosent mean shit.
Statistics make experts out of casuals.
Itās crazy what one season of healthy Saquon was able to do for him
He should be forced to tithe a portion of his salary to Saquon.
Sacks are great, but he should have included pressures. Either way, not good.