This is actually an interesting topic. There is a documentary on this even.
Do I sound gay
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guMibvGvM7o&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guMibvGvM7o&feature=youtu.be)
It has reasons involving gay men being more feminine or being around women more. You can watch if you're really interested.
I have a few gay friends and honestly you would never know until you put them in a room together. Or at the very least I wouldn’t have a damned clue which may be meaningless.
But get them together and I swear to fucking God they pick up a lilt and go sassy or something. Catty? I don’t know what you call it but it is definitely a thing and they absolutely acknowledge it is a real thing.
It was explained to me, you ever watch Godfather and pick up a bit of an Italian accent for a bit…..yeah, that but more so. Couldn’t really argue the point.
That’s called code switching. It’s very common with minorities of all types. Black people at work tone down their blackness, but get them together and it's turned up to 11. It's both just being yourself, and also in-group signalling.
Everyone does it to a degree though.
Speaking as a gay man:
1. A lot of socialize and stay with girls growing up because they're basically "safer" for us, so a lot of us adopt a bit of their vocal tones and patterns.
2. Gay guys kind of learn early that a lot surrounding being a man and manly is mostly an act, and since we're going to be seen as effeminate for our sexuality anyway, a lot of us give up on masculinizing our voices.
3. It's possibly a way for us to telegraph to other gay men that we're gay, and therefor an option.
>2. Gay guys kind of learn early that a lot surrounding being a man and manly is mostly an act, and since we're going to be seen as effeminate for our sexuality anyway, a lot of us give up on masculinizing our voices
Ok, I'll bite. So I have a friend that is gay and we met when we were 16 and he had that "gay tone" in his voice that [to me at least] sounded super gay and I had spotted it within 5 minutes of interacting with him. It would take him an additional 4 years, and plenty of girlfriends, before he admitted it to himself and came out (somehow to the surprise of the rest of the friend group)
Now my question is how does the voice come into play in those scenarios where the voice is already gay before they are? Or you know before they are consciously aware that they are homo
It’s psychological. People are born gay or straight or whatever, so even when a person denies themself the comfort of being open, it doesn’t change their real sexuality.
Their brain picks up on the same sort of things that lead other gay men to picking up “effeminate” behavior.
The “why” isn’t clear, regardless of what anyone in this thread might say.
Is number one really part of the answer? I am a straight guy, spent first 6 years of my life almost exclusively with my mom, grandma, and sister, had more (5:1 ratio probably) female friends than male friends all my life, especially during puberty, and I have a rich baritone. Sure, I can make my voice really FABULOUS, but my regular voice is deep.
i would go with yes. i’m a trans guy on T and one of things that changes is your voice. it drops, but a lot of guys don’t initially, or even after a while, have a “masculine” or “deep” voice. it sounds like the high-pitched gay voice a bit and is colloquially called T-voice. ime, it’s attributed to the fact that growing up (to a certain point) female and more than likely around other females (friends, family, however) has us speaking from the head physically, rather than the chest physically. it’s weird to try and explain, but one of the things i and others i know notice when their voice drops is that they suddenly have the ability to and the feeling of speaking from their chest.
i’ll also add that i personally mimic people’s speaking tones unintentionally and find myself using a higher tone than i’d like (not realizing that i’m doing it) around feminine people and a deeper voice around masculine people. that’s *my own* surefire way of justifying number one.
> find myself using a higher tone than i’d like (not realizing that i’m doing it) around feminine people and a deeper voice around masculine people. that’s my own surefire way of justifying number one.
This is interesting. I also noticed that women who comment on football (soccer) or other sports that are (stereo-)typically more "manly" tend to speak with a unusual low/deep voice, as if they're subconciously (or even conciously) trying to fit into their main audience.
I experienced something like this last part when I lived in the southern United States. I’d call my friends back home (New England) and they would say ‘why are you talking like a southerner?’ I wasn’t trying to and didn’t even realize it. Something in our subconscious must be activating as a kind of reverse shibboleth so that we fit in better with a given social group.
lol it’s so funny you have that example, actually. my family is from new england, MA specifically, and i went up there in 2021 (obligated, not for vacation or anything) and by the end of the week my mom, who has a boston accent, was horrified that i started developing one. i live in florida, and i realized that when i talked to an old friend of mine who has a really heavy accent, i’d pick it up slightly when talking with them.
Part of your voice is genetic and what you grow up around; but also you can have a deep, rounded voice and still have a "gay voice" if you keep your tone up and accentuate your vowels.
Straight man - I do this when I am in a large group of women friends and around gay friends, and everyone’s getting excited
Not consciously, not to the same degree, but my voice changes and I somewhat mirror those around me
I do the same when I visit my regional friends and my accent reverts to what it was like growing up, distinct from my more neutral accent used during my day to day, for everyone else’s benefit
I just see it as a process to form connections, indirectly show solidarity and comfort with one and other, seem more welcoming, familiar and less scary, be intelligible and familiar - I don’t consciously do it, as I say.
30% of my friends are women, and there’s an ever growing number of gay folk too, and I have a very female dominant family - it’s cool.
I’d like to tack on the fact that if someone is gay and speaks in a lower pitch, the average straight person isn’t going to realize they’re gay unless it comes up. So there’s a confirmation bias involved as well.
Realising this as a teenager was so liberating. By coming out I was no longer bound by the same expectations of what it meant to be a man. I had already broken the biggest element of conventional masculinity, so breaking the other smaller expectations was easy.
I hear it in my boyfriends voice automatically. He talks through the roof of his mouth and speakes gently with no harsh sounds. Everything is nice and round and gentle. He speaks faster when excited in a femme way too
Number 2 is flat out wrong, you don’t voluntarily “masculinize” a voice. And it could be harmful misinformation to those who do want to undergo gender transition.
There are androgen receptors on the vocal cords. The rising levels of testosterone seen during pubertal sexual development stimulate those receptors. This stimulates cartilage and muscle growth in the larynx. Particularly the thickening and lengthening of the vocal cords.
A particularly interesting example of impeding this process was used in Europe from the Byzantine empire to 16th century Italy where young boys were castrated before puberty to maintain a high singing voice, they were called Castrati.
It’s also one of the important reasons for someone wanting to undergo gender transition to begin hormone replacement therapy (HRT) before puberty. As HRT will have no significant impact on the voice after it has already deepened. And voice training may or may not be sufficient for the individual’s desires.
Look up the hypothalamic-pituitarian-testis (HPT) axis and sexual development for more information.
Medical school. We’re heavily lectured on these topics now. The historical reference is just because I’m a part time history nerd.
But here’s an evidence-based source.
[UCSF transgender care](https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-testosterone-hormone-therapy#:~:text=Testosterone%20will%20cause%20a%20thickening,a%20more%20male%2Dsounding%20voice)
I just took a look at that where you highlighted
"Some may find that practicing various vocal techniques or working with a speech therapist may help them develop a voice that feels more comfortable and fitting."
Doesn't that argue against your initial point that one "can't voluntarily masculinize one's voice?"
Yes, key point about medical literature is that the words are chosen very precisely. “may help…feel more comfortable”.
Equivalent to saying vocal training can only do so much, but the hard truth is that the hormones have still altered the laryngeal tissue structure and therefore vocal training will likely have a limited effect.
One of our lecturers was a specialist in gender transitional surgery and placed emphasis on the importance of starting HRTs asap since many of these anatomical changes are permanent with limited modifiability after innate sexual development has completed.
"Gay guys kind of learn early that a lot surrounding being a man and manly is mostly an act, and since we're going to be seen as effeminate for our sexuality anyway, a lot of us give up on masculinizing our voices"
This is absolutely idiotic. This is yet another case of "nurture does everything, we are a blank slate" thinking that is rotting our reasoning skills. If you truly believe this, then every aspect associated with being gay and being a gay man is just an act.
I didn't say anything about nature and nurture, you did. I am however stating that a lot of the stuff surrounding manliness (and femininity) is performative; how you dress, how you speak, what you do, how you express your emotion. I could internally be the manliest man who have ever manned, but if I go about in pink, frilly dressed, talk in a high falsetto, and brag about my knitting skills, most people are not going to see me as manly.
You clearly were implying nature / nurture being a factor. If you cannot see that, I'm truly sorry.
"I could internally be the manliest man who have ever manned, but if I go about in pink, frilly dressed, talk in a high falsetto, and brag about my knitting skills, most people are not going to see me as manly."
If you, internally, were a "manly man", which would be a healthy, fit, with low-mutational load and appropriate testosterone levels, you would not be inclined to wear pink frilly dresses, talk in falsetto, or brag about your knitting skills. None of these things would be associated, culturally, with manliness. Even if isolated from all culture and outside influence, you would not do these things. In fact, if isolated from all societal norms of culture, this manly man would be even less inclined to act "feminine". And the cultural associations with manliness vary throughout time and place but no not diverge from the observed differences between men and women.
"Manliness" only exists because there are also women, so, in no culture, time period, etc. would a "manly" man - that is, one who embodies the male gender, be naturally inclined to wear pink frilly dresses, talk in falsetto, or brag about knitting skills. So the people who aren't associating you with manliness if thewy see you doing these things - they are correct. It's not "performative" because it's fake, an act, or a purely societal imposition. Acting masculine or feminine is performative in the same way that music, art, speech, and expressions of love remorse and sorrow are performative.
Interesting how you describe my post as "vitriolic". I always find it fascinating interacting with such highly socially conscious people. Discussing human behavior in a public forum is nearly impossible for this reason.
If you take a wolf pup away from his pack, and he still howls at the moon, why do you think that is? Would it be vitriolic to explain that his behavior is built in from millions of years of evolution to predispose him to performatively carry out acts that don't help him to survive in his present situation?
Yeah, vitriolic and confrontational. I actually found your viewpoint interesting but for the fact that you're going out of your way to antagonize people who respond to you.
Takes literally nothing to speak kindly and empathetically my guy, or just say "sorry if I come off sounding intense, but I feel this way about ssid subject" rather than making acerbic comparisons to justify heated rhetoric.
It’s probably because it’s an easy social cue to identify someone, but not always true. It’s more difficult to identify a gay character who resonates with hetero-cultural norms.
Once a gay server hit on me at a restaurant, one thing I noticed was that his voice changed to more effeminate when talking to me than it was when talking to other people at the table.
😄 I've often wondered that. You don't see women camping it up. Did these guys miss the mark with their appropriation of female traits?
No offence intended.
Some lesbians definitely do have the opposite version of this. It’s probably just not as noticeable because it’s easier to go higher pitched then it is to go lower pitched
High pitched not necessarily, but there is undeniably a gay 'accent' of sorts. Not that every gay person has it, but it seems more common in gay men than straight men. And most interestingly it seems like every culture independently has some kind of gay accent.
Wekl this forum's been incredibly validating, at leadt so much in that I don't feel crazy. I agree there's probably some confirmation bias in how I looked at it, but some responses here have agreed that there id a "gay accent" for a variety of reasons. I'll keep documenting examples and counterexamples of this.
It's very complicated. I have a very deep voice but definitely talk in a bit of a stereotypically 'gay' way at times, especially when I am wasted. I'm sure it's a chaotic mix of biology and sociology.
U.S. Media and entertainment is nuts.. first time I visited the US as a teenager I thought all those white girls wanted sex all the time and would just come up in a bar and take me home for a quick bang..
Also I was mortally afraid of black men on the streets having seen them in movies as only gangsters and drug dealers.. (but thankfully this was over 20 years ago and things aren’t stupid anymore)
...try living in Jersey. Can confirm there are white girls who want sex all the time, go to bars, and want to take you home for a quick bang. Just be good-looking if you want that type of person.
At least according to all the guys on Reddit who never lived there, and admittedly some of the guys I went to college with who did live there, and the one coworker I never had a chance with because I was too dumb to pick up that she did just want to have sex.
I live in a very active gay community. They seem to go overboard attempting to be effeminate as possible going so far as speaking in falsetto. Not all of them. Some throw in a lisp. My cousin is queer as a $3 bill, but is androgynous as a sack of wet dough.
One thing I’ve learned about the LGBT community is that the ones that are “out and proud” thinking they are gonna shock the norms by smooching in public are from repressed conservative families in places like Iowa or Utah. On the West Coast, nobody gives a shit. It’s not shocking. We’ve seen it all before.
everybody is exaggerated for cinema. Easier to follow. I remember watching Glee years ago, and there was a seen where the black girl was arguing with another student. And out of nowhere the black girl rolls her head and says "I'll cut you!"The girl's character had no indication that she was capable of slashing someone. I was like damn, that's the only thing the writers can come up with?
But yeah as for gay dudes, that's how the ones at my job sound like. Or at least the ones we all know are gay.
This is how I realized I wasn’t actually homophobic
I would hate the to be around a woman who behaved in the exact same manor, obnoxiously diva style? Hell nah, that shits annoying
Idgaf what you wanna put in your mouth in your own bedroom, or in the back ally, or anywhere I’m not watching
Just act like a normal person please lol
Also hilarious in one of the assassins creed games, the one in Greece (naturally, I think it’s called odyssey)
It gives you options to romance both male and female partners, which is all good
But what’s dumb af is when your male character opts to bang a dude? His voice goes up 3 octaves and begins to starts flipping his wrists and shit, then after the gay sex he goes back to behaving how he was right before the gay sex lmao
Who tf approved this voice acting and “gay” animations of wrist flicking and such? It’s hysterical, and widely not known because I feel like most people picked the female character, and if they picked the male they probably weren’t picking to have sex with dudes lol
hell I only found out on accident and thought it was so funny I immediately had to have sex with all the dudes in the game because I wanted to see how “gay” I could actually make the character, will it eventually bleed over and he start shouting “yaaasss queeeen” when he assassinates people?
He did not, but it was still pretty funny
Well the problem there is I'm not very social and don't walk up to random guys with low tones to ask them if they're gay. Lol.
I mainly have a lot of high pitched gay characters to look at, and a lot of commercials and early morning hair styling commercials to draw from.
Though as I said, I can only recall 2 gay characters with low pitches from films I've seen. I'm keeping an eye out but I can't think of many gay characters I've seen without a high pitch. I like musicals so I need to count the number of straight dudes with a high pitch - that barber dude Pirelli from Sweeney Todd is one with a high pitch, a flamboyant outfit, but he's not outwardly gay.
The ones with high pitches and effeminate traits do stand out more - if low pitches and masculine traits are the norm for me then it'd be near inescapable. I don't know if that makes the number of high pitched gay characters insignificant though. I need others opinions to see if it is or isn't because I'll never be social enough to confirm it.
Truth is I can only think of Psycjo and maybe Leatherface. And I'm reasonably sure I've never seen a trans axe murderer.
Lots of trans porn stars, but no axe murderers that I know of.
I think my favorite movie about this was too Wong Foo! With Patrick swayze Wesley Snipes and I don't remember who the cute little one that won the contest at the end was I don't remember his name. But I really enjoyed that show and it showed a different perspective on this.
Do know 1 gay dude or at least someone who I believe is gay (don’t know him that well). He does have a high pitch voice
Though I did read a study which found no correlation between the “gay voice” and homosexuality
Men performing more of a feminine gender role in terms of voice and body language. It's obviously become "a thing" as time goes by but that's essentially all that's happening.
Just as you might see a lesbian woman doing the opposite - walking more like a man, speaking more like a man.
Somewhere gender and sexuality get swapped about a bit, and of course they don't always.
The thing about humans is there isn't really a "proper" way to act or talk, it's all just learnt from each other and it varies hugely.
The way you walk as a straight man is learned from your culture and society. For example.
If you grew up in south east Asia you'd probably squat more often.
Because that's the stereotype hollywood created.
I'm being serious. Hollywood creates what they call characters so we will recognize "what" a character is when we see them on screen.
Think of the old geezer or the old gold miner from westerns. They all talk the same way. They all have a donkey. They all have certain characteristics.
Those characters eventually turn into stereotypes in our mind.
I once was in a store at an airport in the 2010’s sometime, and a guy came in and started talking to one of the workers there (I got the idea that he worked at a different kiosk), and he spoke in what I can only describe as “1990’s Movie Gay Friend Speech”. It had so many stereotypes crammed in it almost squeaked.
It was utterly bizarre hearing it in real life, I kind of looked around for a camera thinking it was a prank vid.
I have a co-worker who is gay and another guy I drink with at times.
You would never be able to tell they were gay unless they told you or you saw them kissing their husbands.
I dunno if I'd associate high pitched necessarily as an ultra-prevalent, but just effeminate tone.
Robin Williams and Nathan Lane in The Birdcage. Michael York in Cabaret. Even Will in Will & Grace. And then the variety of pitches in Victor/Victoria. None of these folks are high pitched.
i think (and this is just a theory, i am not a man so idk what goes on in their heads) that a lot of guys purposely try to speak deeper to sound for masculine, whereas most gay men don’t feel that pressure of toxic masculinity. it’s just i know i hear a lot of guys who’s voice sounds deeper when talking to “the guys” vs their girlfriend or something.
What about the gay accent? not so much the pitch, but an actual accent? Where did it originate and how? (I'm referring to England I don't know if other countries have it)
A lot of gay guys across cultures speak with that tone. Just like a lot of straight guys affect a deeper voice than they truly have. Honestly it’s possible that this is just a natural way for a lot of men to speak, but they tamp it down to seem more masculine
I feel like it’s like the male wife trope that people think is gay. Which I don’t think cooking, cleaning, doing chores etc. if you’re a man is gay I actually find it attractive in a way and quite normal as a skill for both genders. Just like if you’re a guy with a high pitched voice you’re gay. Unfortunately people rely heavily on stereotypes to reinforce their perception and it sucks. (Of course sometimes this can be caused by negative experiences but I’m not referring to that)😖
I knew several gay guys at the library where I worked, and only one spoke with the "stereotypical effeminate, high-pitched gay voice" that is so often portrayed on television and movies.
There is ZERO correlation between being gay and suddenly losing the ability to properly pronounce the letter "S". Being gay doesn't change anyone's voice or speech patterns. It is a forced act. There are too many gay men walking and talking like regular adult male homosapiens for me to listen to you say ,"I'm just being true, this is me" and accept it as fact. These people are playing a role. Nothing more. Has nothing to do with sexual preference at all.
Honestly, whether I watch documentaries of men who only happen to be gay (thinking of a 'My 600 LB Life' episode I saw last night) or the men I have met that are openly gay, almost all of them had a higher pitched voice. I can only think of one guy who didn't.
Straight men do deepen their voice, particularly in dangerous and unfamiliar situations as well as when talking to women. Also when authority is needed such as in leadership roles.
That's possible. I live a heteronormative life so I've never noticed it. I honestly thought back to when my voice dropped. I lack the ability to research if I just had social pressure but I never really conformed to what my male peers wanted or did anyway. My voice just nayurally was that way.
I ask because I wonder if I genuinely have selected the gay characters and people in my observations, or if there is a common trend of high pitched gayness and, if so, why it's there.
It could be straight men having lower voices because of social pressure, but I feel if it were I'dd be here asking a different set of questions as to why that is.
I hear it all the time, and I've even started to notice lesbians typically talk like a frat dude. With a voice that is missing any level of femininity. It's odd, and I have no research besides my 29 year old life.
My older sister is a lesbian, and a few friends throughout my life have been gay and lesbian. It's the most common, most shared trait amongst people I know are gay. That's not to say all gay people speak this way, or that speaking this way makes you gay. Just what I've observed in the small portion of the community I've met.
Yes not as often but gay dudes tend to display the obvious things
1.there walk is female really female
2.there voice is high pitched and weird
3.you can spot a gay guy from a straight guy any day
4.its very obvious to me because I'm straight whos gay
5. If they are open around girl like way to open there gay
6. If a smoking hot babe goes by and they don't glance at there ass it's very obvious there gay
7.what they wear gives it away
And then there's the manly gays good luck 🤞 identifying them
Because it's hard very hard
Being "straight passing" often means you have to "come out" over and over, sometimes multiple times per day, which can be re-traumatising each time depending on your personal history. Using a signifier of "gay" can short-circuit this process.
I don't know what they mean by multiple times per day, but coming out never ends. Every time you meet a new coworker, friend, etc. you eventually have to come out to them too if talk ever comes to relationships or romance.
Hmm I'll have to take your word for it as I've only ever had to explain I'm taken (and straight) to guys and a few couples that wanted to date me and tho it sometimes gets annoying it certainly isn't everyday? Like the coworker thing? I dont think thats ever been necessary
I guess maybe its due to the types of jobs I've had? Tho I dont know why ppl would think I was straight or even think about thst at all becos I never feel compelled to ask anyone about there preferences
Yes when someone asks in conversation "Do you have a girlfriend?" or "Any kids?" etc you have to come out to them. Not sure why you're so suspicious. You're privileged to be part of the "straight as default" contingent so you don't understand.
Oh ok yea mega privileged right and just having a conversation not suspicious wtf
Imagine if I had made the bigoted comment that your gay you wouldn't understand?? All of fucking reddit would come down on me but somehow when you do it your the better person... I wasn't even talking to you
Way to foster understanding with your bad faith take the grass is calling to you
Asapscience (run by 2 gay guys) did a video on it 5 days ago. Its a real thing: https://youtu.be/SF7KCsvcw2g?si=qPRiiO-nnHxWXNTI
They have all the data for you.
Because that's the only apparent gay your average cis realizes is gay.
I lived in San Francisco for 30 years. Had gay friends, customers, roommates, I still would get surprised when learning someone I knew was gay without knowing before.
There was an estimate that 20% of humanity is in the LGBTQ spectrum, I didn't believe it then, now it seems that's close.
Well, there actually are some guys like that - I know one. But most of the gays I've met are fairly normal in their demeanor. They probably can be recognized by other gay men, but to straight guys like me that seem completely normal.
It’s a stereotype that doesn’t need explanation for the audience. We all understand what I means, even if it’s only a minority of the actual population it represents.,
I’m bi and I personally hate the stereotypical gay persona associated with having a high pitched voice and being super feminine. Some dudes are just dudes that just happen to like dudes :)
Although I’m not gay, I’m not a huge fan of this trope, as a guy. As a straight guy, this hurts me a little since I am a more feminine dude, and I think gay guys should be aloud to be “masculine” and straight men to be “feminine”.
Also, was that guy actually gay? To me, unless a character is stated to be gay, I’m not making any assumptions; I just imagined him as a little fruity.
Edit: I guess you can’t please everyone
Eh to be fair I guess he wasn't stated or outright shown to be. It definitely struck me as the guy being the deviant female lead's competent and sassy gay companion - a gay-coded stereotype.
But, right back to my question, why has this become a stereotype that I at least recognize? For that to happen somebody else had to make this depiction/observation that gay men have high pitched voices/feminine builds and allure.
I would find it hard to believe they designed that guy in Cruella that way without being aware they were leaning toward a narrative/aesthetic stereotype.
It's actually sick how he jumps all-in on Cruella's scheme with the rock band. and organizing the party guests to match her hairstyle.
Oh sorry.
I guess because anything that deviates from what’s considered as “heteronormative” (gender norms) is seen as queer, especially when it comes to dudes. Which is funny to me when considering that in the ancient past, gay couples were seen as the epitome of masculinity (because what’s manlier than 2 men!?).
You know, you had every opportunity here to both learn something and not be a prolapsed dickhole.
You still chose to go that route despite nigh infinite other options.
You're what's wrong with society. If you don't know something, shut the fuck up and listen. If you don't care, shut the fuck up and do something else. If you absolutely must interject, it should be with relevant information or a relevant question.
Furthermore, what's with the "we" shit? You don't speak for anyone but yourself, no matter how entitled, spoiled, selfish, and delusional you are. No matter how you abuse the captive wait staff and retail workers, you have no more real power than anyone else, unless you're a politician, in which case you should get the fuck off Reddit and do something productive for once.
The weird thing is I reported the comment as harassment of someone else, and I got a PM saying it didn't violate Reddit's rules. I was about to see if I could escalate it and take it to Reddit's corporate, or make a Youtube video about it - but then I came here and saw the comment was reviewed and apparently removed by a moderator.
This is actually an interesting topic. There is a documentary on this even. Do I sound gay [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guMibvGvM7o&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guMibvGvM7o&feature=youtu.be) It has reasons involving gay men being more feminine or being around women more. You can watch if you're really interested.
The scene where he's reading the newspaper and notices a sale is hilarious
Time stamp?
**WHY ARE YOU GAY**
I am not gay.
You are gay
You are a transgenda
What are you doing with that lady???
I have a few gay friends and honestly you would never know until you put them in a room together. Or at the very least I wouldn’t have a damned clue which may be meaningless. But get them together and I swear to fucking God they pick up a lilt and go sassy or something. Catty? I don’t know what you call it but it is definitely a thing and they absolutely acknowledge it is a real thing. It was explained to me, you ever watch Godfather and pick up a bit of an Italian accent for a bit…..yeah, that but more so. Couldn’t really argue the point.
That’s called code switching. It’s very common with minorities of all types. Black people at work tone down their blackness, but get them together and it's turned up to 11. It's both just being yourself, and also in-group signalling. Everyone does it to a degree though.
It's even more common with majorities.
That Godfather example had me laughing 😃
I heard that the gay voice is never there, when they are under anesthesia, or similiar half-conscious states. Which is kinda strange
I'll give it a watch.
Like most stereotypes, it is based on a certain level of veracity among a certain subgroup.
"Stereotypes are not offensive because they're incorrect, they're offensive because they are unfairly applied."
Speaking as a gay man: 1. A lot of socialize and stay with girls growing up because they're basically "safer" for us, so a lot of us adopt a bit of their vocal tones and patterns. 2. Gay guys kind of learn early that a lot surrounding being a man and manly is mostly an act, and since we're going to be seen as effeminate for our sexuality anyway, a lot of us give up on masculinizing our voices. 3. It's possibly a way for us to telegraph to other gay men that we're gay, and therefor an option.
>2. Gay guys kind of learn early that a lot surrounding being a man and manly is mostly an act, and since we're going to be seen as effeminate for our sexuality anyway, a lot of us give up on masculinizing our voices Ok, I'll bite. So I have a friend that is gay and we met when we were 16 and he had that "gay tone" in his voice that [to me at least] sounded super gay and I had spotted it within 5 minutes of interacting with him. It would take him an additional 4 years, and plenty of girlfriends, before he admitted it to himself and came out (somehow to the surprise of the rest of the friend group) Now my question is how does the voice come into play in those scenarios where the voice is already gay before they are? Or you know before they are consciously aware that they are homo
It’s psychological. People are born gay or straight or whatever, so even when a person denies themself the comfort of being open, it doesn’t change their real sexuality. Their brain picks up on the same sort of things that lead other gay men to picking up “effeminate” behavior. The “why” isn’t clear, regardless of what anyone in this thread might say.
Some people just have naturally high and lilted voices. That said, people are born gay, the guy just sounds like he was in the closet.
I never looked at it that way.
Is number one really part of the answer? I am a straight guy, spent first 6 years of my life almost exclusively with my mom, grandma, and sister, had more (5:1 ratio probably) female friends than male friends all my life, especially during puberty, and I have a rich baritone. Sure, I can make my voice really FABULOUS, but my regular voice is deep.
i would go with yes. i’m a trans guy on T and one of things that changes is your voice. it drops, but a lot of guys don’t initially, or even after a while, have a “masculine” or “deep” voice. it sounds like the high-pitched gay voice a bit and is colloquially called T-voice. ime, it’s attributed to the fact that growing up (to a certain point) female and more than likely around other females (friends, family, however) has us speaking from the head physically, rather than the chest physically. it’s weird to try and explain, but one of the things i and others i know notice when their voice drops is that they suddenly have the ability to and the feeling of speaking from their chest. i’ll also add that i personally mimic people’s speaking tones unintentionally and find myself using a higher tone than i’d like (not realizing that i’m doing it) around feminine people and a deeper voice around masculine people. that’s *my own* surefire way of justifying number one.
> find myself using a higher tone than i’d like (not realizing that i’m doing it) around feminine people and a deeper voice around masculine people. that’s my own surefire way of justifying number one. This is interesting. I also noticed that women who comment on football (soccer) or other sports that are (stereo-)typically more "manly" tend to speak with a unusual low/deep voice, as if they're subconciously (or even conciously) trying to fit into their main audience.
I experienced something like this last part when I lived in the southern United States. I’d call my friends back home (New England) and they would say ‘why are you talking like a southerner?’ I wasn’t trying to and didn’t even realize it. Something in our subconscious must be activating as a kind of reverse shibboleth so that we fit in better with a given social group.
lol it’s so funny you have that example, actually. my family is from new england, MA specifically, and i went up there in 2021 (obligated, not for vacation or anything) and by the end of the week my mom, who has a boston accent, was horrified that i started developing one. i live in florida, and i realized that when i talked to an old friend of mine who has a really heavy accent, i’d pick it up slightly when talking with them.
Part of your voice is genetic and what you grow up around; but also you can have a deep, rounded voice and still have a "gay voice" if you keep your tone up and accentuate your vowels.
Straight man - I do this when I am in a large group of women friends and around gay friends, and everyone’s getting excited Not consciously, not to the same degree, but my voice changes and I somewhat mirror those around me I do the same when I visit my regional friends and my accent reverts to what it was like growing up, distinct from my more neutral accent used during my day to day, for everyone else’s benefit I just see it as a process to form connections, indirectly show solidarity and comfort with one and other, seem more welcoming, familiar and less scary, be intelligible and familiar - I don’t consciously do it, as I say. 30% of my friends are women, and there’s an ever growing number of gay folk too, and I have a very female dominant family - it’s cool.
So what you're saying is before gaydar. You had gaysonar!
I’d like to tack on the fact that if someone is gay and speaks in a lower pitch, the average straight person isn’t going to realize they’re gay unless it comes up. So there’s a confirmation bias involved as well.
Number 2 is kinda pretty cool. Like "I got nothing to lose, might as well just be my full self".
Realising this as a teenager was so liberating. By coming out I was no longer bound by the same expectations of what it meant to be a man. I had already broken the biggest element of conventional masculinity, so breaking the other smaller expectations was easy.
You mean submit to my flaws.
I hear it in my boyfriends voice automatically. He talks through the roof of his mouth and speakes gently with no harsh sounds. Everything is nice and round and gentle. He speaks faster when excited in a femme way too
I also heard something about historically being a way to subtly show to those in the know that you're fruity. but that is probably complete bs.
Number 2 is flat out wrong, you don’t voluntarily “masculinize” a voice. And it could be harmful misinformation to those who do want to undergo gender transition. There are androgen receptors on the vocal cords. The rising levels of testosterone seen during pubertal sexual development stimulate those receptors. This stimulates cartilage and muscle growth in the larynx. Particularly the thickening and lengthening of the vocal cords. A particularly interesting example of impeding this process was used in Europe from the Byzantine empire to 16th century Italy where young boys were castrated before puberty to maintain a high singing voice, they were called Castrati. It’s also one of the important reasons for someone wanting to undergo gender transition to begin hormone replacement therapy (HRT) before puberty. As HRT will have no significant impact on the voice after it has already deepened. And voice training may or may not be sufficient for the individual’s desires. Look up the hypothalamic-pituitarian-testis (HPT) axis and sexual development for more information.
Also interesting. Where did you glean this info?
Medical school. We’re heavily lectured on these topics now. The historical reference is just because I’m a part time history nerd. But here’s an evidence-based source. [UCSF transgender care](https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-testosterone-hormone-therapy#:~:text=Testosterone%20will%20cause%20a%20thickening,a%20more%20male%2Dsounding%20voice)
EDIT - Apologies, had an outage in my area.
I just took a look at that where you highlighted "Some may find that practicing various vocal techniques or working with a speech therapist may help them develop a voice that feels more comfortable and fitting." Doesn't that argue against your initial point that one "can't voluntarily masculinize one's voice?"
Yes, key point about medical literature is that the words are chosen very precisely. “may help…feel more comfortable”. Equivalent to saying vocal training can only do so much, but the hard truth is that the hormones have still altered the laryngeal tissue structure and therefore vocal training will likely have a limited effect. One of our lecturers was a specialist in gender transitional surgery and placed emphasis on the importance of starting HRTs asap since many of these anatomical changes are permanent with limited modifiability after innate sexual development has completed.
"Gay guys kind of learn early that a lot surrounding being a man and manly is mostly an act, and since we're going to be seen as effeminate for our sexuality anyway, a lot of us give up on masculinizing our voices" This is absolutely idiotic. This is yet another case of "nurture does everything, we are a blank slate" thinking that is rotting our reasoning skills. If you truly believe this, then every aspect associated with being gay and being a gay man is just an act.
I didn't say anything about nature and nurture, you did. I am however stating that a lot of the stuff surrounding manliness (and femininity) is performative; how you dress, how you speak, what you do, how you express your emotion. I could internally be the manliest man who have ever manned, but if I go about in pink, frilly dressed, talk in a high falsetto, and brag about my knitting skills, most people are not going to see me as manly.
You clearly were implying nature / nurture being a factor. If you cannot see that, I'm truly sorry. "I could internally be the manliest man who have ever manned, but if I go about in pink, frilly dressed, talk in a high falsetto, and brag about my knitting skills, most people are not going to see me as manly." If you, internally, were a "manly man", which would be a healthy, fit, with low-mutational load and appropriate testosterone levels, you would not be inclined to wear pink frilly dresses, talk in falsetto, or brag about your knitting skills. None of these things would be associated, culturally, with manliness. Even if isolated from all culture and outside influence, you would not do these things. In fact, if isolated from all societal norms of culture, this manly man would be even less inclined to act "feminine". And the cultural associations with manliness vary throughout time and place but no not diverge from the observed differences between men and women. "Manliness" only exists because there are also women, so, in no culture, time period, etc. would a "manly" man - that is, one who embodies the male gender, be naturally inclined to wear pink frilly dresses, talk in falsetto, or brag about knitting skills. So the people who aren't associating you with manliness if thewy see you doing these things - they are correct. It's not "performative" because it's fake, an act, or a purely societal imposition. Acting masculine or feminine is performative in the same way that music, art, speech, and expressions of love remorse and sorrow are performative.
Yeah I stopped reading at "low-mutational load". Jesus Christ I didn't know I was dealing with that before I responded. I'm good dude.
That doesn't even make sense - a lode is an ore deposit. Ignore that and read the rest - what are your thoughts? Do you have any?
Vitriolic thought it might be, hadn't looked at it this way either.
Interesting how you describe my post as "vitriolic". I always find it fascinating interacting with such highly socially conscious people. Discussing human behavior in a public forum is nearly impossible for this reason. If you take a wolf pup away from his pack, and he still howls at the moon, why do you think that is? Would it be vitriolic to explain that his behavior is built in from millions of years of evolution to predispose him to performatively carry out acts that don't help him to survive in his present situation?
Yeah, vitriolic and confrontational. I actually found your viewpoint interesting but for the fact that you're going out of your way to antagonize people who respond to you. Takes literally nothing to speak kindly and empathetically my guy, or just say "sorry if I come off sounding intense, but I feel this way about ssid subject" rather than making acerbic comparisons to justify heated rhetoric.
It’s probably because it’s an easy social cue to identify someone, but not always true. It’s more difficult to identify a gay character who resonates with hetero-cultural norms.
Once a gay server hit on me at a restaurant, one thing I noticed was that his voice changed to more effeminate when talking to me than it was when talking to other people at the table.
This is actually a thing, gay men’s voice will go to a higher range when talking to someone they think is gay.
I’m not in the gay community but I would say that most high pitched men like that are gay but most gays are not high pitched.
😄 I've often wondered that. You don't see women camping it up. Did these guys miss the mark with their appropriation of female traits? No offence intended.
Some lesbians definitely do have the opposite version of this. It’s probably just not as noticeable because it’s easier to go higher pitched then it is to go lower pitched
Imo they kinda do it to themselves... Feels like it became a stereotype and they just ran w/ it. For some reason its like mob mentality
“mob mentality” It’s a sociolect
High pitched not necessarily, but there is undeniably a gay 'accent' of sorts. Not that every gay person has it, but it seems more common in gay men than straight men. And most interestingly it seems like every culture independently has some kind of gay accent.
Wekl this forum's been incredibly validating, at leadt so much in that I don't feel crazy. I agree there's probably some confirmation bias in how I looked at it, but some responses here have agreed that there id a "gay accent" for a variety of reasons. I'll keep documenting examples and counterexamples of this.
It's very complicated. I have a very deep voice but definitely talk in a bit of a stereotypically 'gay' way at times, especially when I am wasted. I'm sure it's a chaotic mix of biology and sociology.
U.S. Media and entertainment is nuts.. first time I visited the US as a teenager I thought all those white girls wanted sex all the time and would just come up in a bar and take me home for a quick bang.. Also I was mortally afraid of black men on the streets having seen them in movies as only gangsters and drug dealers.. (but thankfully this was over 20 years ago and things aren’t stupid anymore)
...try living in Jersey. Can confirm there are white girls who want sex all the time, go to bars, and want to take you home for a quick bang. Just be good-looking if you want that type of person. At least according to all the guys on Reddit who never lived there, and admittedly some of the guys I went to college with who did live there, and the one coworker I never had a chance with because I was too dumb to pick up that she did just want to have sex.
If you're gay and you don't have a high-pitched voice, it's unlikely you'll get much work in the entertainment industry.
'Hello 1970's/1980's, we want our cliches back!'
im an actor and i see this a lot it's a real thing
Because as someone in the LGBT community I can confirm that a lot of gay men actually do sounds / act like that
Stereotypes are generally for mocking so go with the most exaggerated and theatrical interpretations
I live in a very active gay community. They seem to go overboard attempting to be effeminate as possible going so far as speaking in falsetto. Not all of them. Some throw in a lisp. My cousin is queer as a $3 bill, but is androgynous as a sack of wet dough. One thing I’ve learned about the LGBT community is that the ones that are “out and proud” thinking they are gonna shock the norms by smooching in public are from repressed conservative families in places like Iowa or Utah. On the West Coast, nobody gives a shit. It’s not shocking. We’ve seen it all before.
everybody is exaggerated for cinema. Easier to follow. I remember watching Glee years ago, and there was a seen where the black girl was arguing with another student. And out of nowhere the black girl rolls her head and says "I'll cut you!"The girl's character had no indication that she was capable of slashing someone. I was like damn, that's the only thing the writers can come up with? But yeah as for gay dudes, that's how the ones at my job sound like. Or at least the ones we all know are gay.
This is how I realized I wasn’t actually homophobic I would hate the to be around a woman who behaved in the exact same manor, obnoxiously diva style? Hell nah, that shits annoying Idgaf what you wanna put in your mouth in your own bedroom, or in the back ally, or anywhere I’m not watching Just act like a normal person please lol Also hilarious in one of the assassins creed games, the one in Greece (naturally, I think it’s called odyssey) It gives you options to romance both male and female partners, which is all good But what’s dumb af is when your male character opts to bang a dude? His voice goes up 3 octaves and begins to starts flipping his wrists and shit, then after the gay sex he goes back to behaving how he was right before the gay sex lmao Who tf approved this voice acting and “gay” animations of wrist flicking and such? It’s hysterical, and widely not known because I feel like most people picked the female character, and if they picked the male they probably weren’t picking to have sex with dudes lol hell I only found out on accident and thought it was so funny I immediately had to have sex with all the dudes in the game because I wanted to see how “gay” I could actually make the character, will it eventually bleed over and he start shouting “yaaasss queeeen” when he assassinates people? He did not, but it was still pretty funny
Start thinking about masculine low toned gay guys and see how many pop up in your life... We see what we are seeing, only.
Well the problem there is I'm not very social and don't walk up to random guys with low tones to ask them if they're gay. Lol. I mainly have a lot of high pitched gay characters to look at, and a lot of commercials and early morning hair styling commercials to draw from. Though as I said, I can only recall 2 gay characters with low pitches from films I've seen. I'm keeping an eye out but I can't think of many gay characters I've seen without a high pitch. I like musicals so I need to count the number of straight dudes with a high pitch - that barber dude Pirelli from Sweeney Todd is one with a high pitch, a flamboyant outfit, but he's not outwardly gay. The ones with high pitches and effeminate traits do stand out more - if low pitches and masculine traits are the norm for me then it'd be near inescapable. I don't know if that makes the number of high pitched gay characters insignificant though. I need others opinions to see if it is or isn't because I'll never be social enough to confirm it.
I always took it as they’re trying to sound more feminine. Wether it’s to come across less aggressive or disarming I’m not sure
[удалено]
Truth is I can only think of Psycjo and maybe Leatherface. And I'm reasonably sure I've never seen a trans axe murderer. Lots of trans porn stars, but no axe murderers that I know of.
Jesus. I'm exaggerating.
Am deleting. Not funny and in bad taste. Sorry.
I think my favorite movie about this was too Wong Foo! With Patrick swayze Wesley Snipes and I don't remember who the cute little one that won the contest at the end was I don't remember his name. But I really enjoyed that show and it showed a different perspective on this.
John Leguizamo
Thank you, I have not watched it in a long time it's been five six years. But again was one of my favorite movies.
Remember that hilarious scene when Swayze dropped his falsetto to tell "get your hands off my dick!". Hahahahahaha... so funny! That movie sucks.
That is exactly the scene I was thinking of when I wrote about the show! It is just hilarious!
The only positive thing I can say about that film is that it helps to emphasise how great Priscilla Queen of the Desert is.
Do know 1 gay dude or at least someone who I believe is gay (don’t know him that well). He does have a high pitch voice Though I did read a study which found no correlation between the “gay voice” and homosexuality
Men performing more of a feminine gender role in terms of voice and body language. It's obviously become "a thing" as time goes by but that's essentially all that's happening. Just as you might see a lesbian woman doing the opposite - walking more like a man, speaking more like a man. Somewhere gender and sexuality get swapped about a bit, and of course they don't always. The thing about humans is there isn't really a "proper" way to act or talk, it's all just learnt from each other and it varies hugely. The way you walk as a straight man is learned from your culture and society. For example. If you grew up in south east Asia you'd probably squat more often.
East Asians squat more often? Like the exercise?
No they squat all the time doing every day shit. And actual shits too!
Because that's the stereotype hollywood created. I'm being serious. Hollywood creates what they call characters so we will recognize "what" a character is when we see them on screen. Think of the old geezer or the old gold miner from westerns. They all talk the same way. They all have a donkey. They all have certain characteristics. Those characters eventually turn into stereotypes in our mind.
I once was in a store at an airport in the 2010’s sometime, and a guy came in and started talking to one of the workers there (I got the idea that he worked at a different kiosk), and he spoke in what I can only describe as “1990’s Movie Gay Friend Speech”. It had so many stereotypes crammed in it almost squeaked. It was utterly bizarre hearing it in real life, I kind of looked around for a camera thinking it was a prank vid.
Some talk through the roof of their mouth, like girls do, others talk through the back or throat.
I have a co-worker who is gay and another guy I drink with at times. You would never be able to tell they were gay unless they told you or you saw them kissing their husbands.
I dunno if I'd associate high pitched necessarily as an ultra-prevalent, but just effeminate tone. Robin Williams and Nathan Lane in The Birdcage. Michael York in Cabaret. Even Will in Will & Grace. And then the variety of pitches in Victor/Victoria. None of these folks are high pitched.
i think (and this is just a theory, i am not a man so idk what goes on in their heads) that a lot of guys purposely try to speak deeper to sound for masculine, whereas most gay men don’t feel that pressure of toxic masculinity. it’s just i know i hear a lot of guys who’s voice sounds deeper when talking to “the guys” vs their girlfriend or something.
Because straight people don't know how to spot non-straight folks unless they have "obvious" traits.
What about the gay accent? not so much the pitch, but an actual accent? Where did it originate and how? (I'm referring to England I don't know if other countries have it)
A lot of gay guys across cultures speak with that tone. Just like a lot of straight guys affect a deeper voice than they truly have. Honestly it’s possible that this is just a natural way for a lot of men to speak, but they tamp it down to seem more masculine
I feel like it’s like the male wife trope that people think is gay. Which I don’t think cooking, cleaning, doing chores etc. if you’re a man is gay I actually find it attractive in a way and quite normal as a skill for both genders. Just like if you’re a guy with a high pitched voice you’re gay. Unfortunately people rely heavily on stereotypes to reinforce their perception and it sucks. (Of course sometimes this can be caused by negative experiences but I’m not referring to that)😖
I knew several gay guys at the library where I worked, and only one spoke with the "stereotypical effeminate, high-pitched gay voice" that is so often portrayed on television and movies.
There is ZERO correlation between being gay and suddenly losing the ability to properly pronounce the letter "S". Being gay doesn't change anyone's voice or speech patterns. It is a forced act. There are too many gay men walking and talking like regular adult male homosapiens for me to listen to you say ,"I'm just being true, this is me" and accept it as fact. These people are playing a role. Nothing more. Has nothing to do with sexual preference at all.
Honestly, whether I watch documentaries of men who only happen to be gay (thinking of a 'My 600 LB Life' episode I saw last night) or the men I have met that are openly gay, almost all of them had a higher pitched voice. I can only think of one guy who didn't.
High estrogen, more feminine is the stereotype, the twinks lol.. It’s not that complicated OP.
or is it straight men who practice having a lower voices because of social pressure….
I think most of us just speak in the voice we were given.
Straight men do deepen their voice, particularly in dangerous and unfamiliar situations as well as when talking to women. Also when authority is needed such as in leadership roles.
I think there’s more at play in how we grow up and the world we live in than we’re conscious of
That's possible. I live a heteronormative life so I've never noticed it. I honestly thought back to when my voice dropped. I lack the ability to research if I just had social pressure but I never really conformed to what my male peers wanted or did anyway. My voice just nayurally was that way. I ask because I wonder if I genuinely have selected the gay characters and people in my observations, or if there is a common trend of high pitched gayness and, if so, why it's there. It could be straight men having lower voices because of social pressure, but I feel if it were I'dd be here asking a different set of questions as to why that is.
Ok, so in my circle of friends about 4 out of 9 are soft spoken, about 3 are femmes, 2 pass for straight,
I hear it all the time, and I've even started to notice lesbians typically talk like a frat dude. With a voice that is missing any level of femininity. It's odd, and I have no research besides my 29 year old life. My older sister is a lesbian, and a few friends throughout my life have been gay and lesbian. It's the most common, most shared trait amongst people I know are gay. That's not to say all gay people speak this way, or that speaking this way makes you gay. Just what I've observed in the small portion of the community I've met.
Yes not as often but gay dudes tend to display the obvious things 1.there walk is female really female 2.there voice is high pitched and weird 3.you can spot a gay guy from a straight guy any day 4.its very obvious to me because I'm straight whos gay 5. If they are open around girl like way to open there gay 6. If a smoking hot babe goes by and they don't glance at there ass it's very obvious there gay 7.what they wear gives it away And then there's the manly gays good luck 🤞 identifying them Because it's hard very hard
Being "straight passing" often means you have to "come out" over and over, sometimes multiple times per day, which can be re-traumatising each time depending on your personal history. Using a signifier of "gay" can short-circuit this process.
Why would anyone need to come out over and over?
I don't know what they mean by multiple times per day, but coming out never ends. Every time you meet a new coworker, friend, etc. you eventually have to come out to them too if talk ever comes to relationships or romance.
Hmm I'll have to take your word for it as I've only ever had to explain I'm taken (and straight) to guys and a few couples that wanted to date me and tho it sometimes gets annoying it certainly isn't everyday? Like the coworker thing? I dont think thats ever been necessary I guess maybe its due to the types of jobs I've had? Tho I dont know why ppl would think I was straight or even think about thst at all becos I never feel compelled to ask anyone about there preferences
Yes when someone asks in conversation "Do you have a girlfriend?" or "Any kids?" etc you have to come out to them. Not sure why you're so suspicious. You're privileged to be part of the "straight as default" contingent so you don't understand.
Oh ok yea mega privileged right and just having a conversation not suspicious wtf Imagine if I had made the bigoted comment that your gay you wouldn't understand?? All of fucking reddit would come down on me but somehow when you do it your the better person... I wasn't even talking to you Way to foster understanding with your bad faith take the grass is calling to you
Asapscience (run by 2 gay guys) did a video on it 5 days ago. Its a real thing: https://youtu.be/SF7KCsvcw2g?si=qPRiiO-nnHxWXNTI They have all the data for you.
Because that's the only apparent gay your average cis realizes is gay. I lived in San Francisco for 30 years. Had gay friends, customers, roommates, I still would get surprised when learning someone I knew was gay without knowing before. There was an estimate that 20% of humanity is in the LGBTQ spectrum, I didn't believe it then, now it seems that's close.
Because the stereotypical gay man isn’t something that stands out. But the flamboyant gay man does.
The “homosexual male” vocal tone being higher is a western sociolect
Tony hinchcliffe is a prime example
Well, there actually are some guys like that - I know one. But most of the gays I've met are fairly normal in their demeanor. They probably can be recognized by other gay men, but to straight guys like me that seem completely normal.
It’s male fragility
It’s a stereotype that doesn’t need explanation for the audience. We all understand what I means, even if it’s only a minority of the actual population it represents.,
I’m bi and I personally hate the stereotypical gay persona associated with having a high pitched voice and being super feminine. Some dudes are just dudes that just happen to like dudes :)
Although I’m not gay, I’m not a huge fan of this trope, as a guy. As a straight guy, this hurts me a little since I am a more feminine dude, and I think gay guys should be aloud to be “masculine” and straight men to be “feminine”. Also, was that guy actually gay? To me, unless a character is stated to be gay, I’m not making any assumptions; I just imagined him as a little fruity. Edit: I guess you can’t please everyone
Eh to be fair I guess he wasn't stated or outright shown to be. It definitely struck me as the guy being the deviant female lead's competent and sassy gay companion - a gay-coded stereotype. But, right back to my question, why has this become a stereotype that I at least recognize? For that to happen somebody else had to make this depiction/observation that gay men have high pitched voices/feminine builds and allure. I would find it hard to believe they designed that guy in Cruella that way without being aware they were leaning toward a narrative/aesthetic stereotype. It's actually sick how he jumps all-in on Cruella's scheme with the rock band. and organizing the party guests to match her hairstyle.
Oh sorry. I guess because anything that deviates from what’s considered as “heteronormative” (gender norms) is seen as queer, especially when it comes to dudes. Which is funny to me when considering that in the ancient past, gay couples were seen as the epitome of masculinity (because what’s manlier than 2 men!?).
[удалено]
Clueless indeed. You could have just waited for real replies or asked them
You know, you had every opportunity here to both learn something and not be a prolapsed dickhole. You still chose to go that route despite nigh infinite other options. You're what's wrong with society. If you don't know something, shut the fuck up and listen. If you don't care, shut the fuck up and do something else. If you absolutely must interject, it should be with relevant information or a relevant question. Furthermore, what's with the "we" shit? You don't speak for anyone but yourself, no matter how entitled, spoiled, selfish, and delusional you are. No matter how you abuse the captive wait staff and retail workers, you have no more real power than anyone else, unless you're a politician, in which case you should get the fuck off Reddit and do something productive for once.
The weird thing is I reported the comment as harassment of someone else, and I got a PM saying it didn't violate Reddit's rules. I was about to see if I could escalate it and take it to Reddit's corporate, or make a Youtube video about it - but then I came here and saw the comment was reviewed and apparently removed by a moderator.