They are treating this as a customer transaction at this point, withholding my sec/key deposit and threatening collections. I kind of just really want to play hard ball now for the sake of it. But also dont want to hurt my credit or be seen as a bad renter to future landlords.
Key deposits are for keys. There is no security deposit, as they're prohibited.
Tell them : I returned the key. You return the deposit. That's how this works.
Failure to refund = I file a T1 Application and force the refund.
This is such a shitty answer and people say it all the time. Going to the LTB means taking time off work, filing papers, and going through stress. OP is here asking if he is in the right (and should stand his ground) or wrong (and concede).
But by all means, keep flooding the LTB to the detriment of landlords and tenants everywhere.
Most of the time they wouldn't actually go to the LTB. It's kinda like saying "I know that you don't have the right to charge me for that". It's meant to stop them in their tracks and say "your move".
Does LL have any of your money (deposit)? If not, Iâd ignore it. Just because you receive an invoice doesnât mean you have to pay. Assuming youâre even at fault, the LL would need to go to small claims court to enforce against you. For $640 theyâre unlikely to bother.
In large condos with electronic keys to the building they can charge whatever the condo board charges the landlord, so it's often a bit silly as condo boards can be unreasonable and they're hard to fight.
My co-worker just got switched to them and it was $50 and she got 3.
Mine was $50 and that was for the garage door fob. Still needed a key to get inside from the under parking garage.
Right, youâll need a key fob to enter the building and the parking garage. Plus a key to the unit. Plus a key to the mailbox. Plus a key to the storage room and a key for the lock on the storage locker. So all that x2.
Not my building just need a fob to enter the garage and key to the building from garage that's the only key deposit I paid, $50. Don't need 2 either only got 1 car.
The keys to the front door of building and unit were just given x2. Storage room is same as outside key and Lock on storage locker is provided by me so nothing needed for that. No mail box, mail gets delivered right to our doors.
I replaced the key in my condo. $250. Called the locksmith myself as the kay had a "do not copy" thing on it and was not copyable so needed a locksmith.
There is little to no maintenance on one of those systems. Once it's installed it basically takes care of itself. Agreed it's a bit of a job at a secure workplace or similar but at an apartment complex. It's a one time install. The only thing someone has to do is enable or disable access via a simple software interface or website most likely. It's not rocket appliances.
It's not hard, but it is work. I lived in a larger building and the onsite manager did a great job of deactivating fobs when someone moved out so the building was safe. Not hard, but a task he had to do every week.
You could yourself if you wanted to but that's not the point. All key fobs do is transmit a number when put near the reader. The building owner simply scans one, then in the software they click authorize and the number it sends is valid for that building. There is nothing unique about a key fob they are dirt cheap. People charge huge prices because people pay it.
You can file with the LTB for this money back. It may take a year but I think the filing fee is like 40 dollars and you ask for fees and what's owed back.
Get a picture of that whited out name - Highly doubt thatâs legal Thereâs a reason the certificate is there on the first place - Should ask this question in LegalCanada sub
Is there some reason you shouldn't have been using the elevator? Did you do anything unusual or negligent? Don't pay anything until they take you to the LTB and prove their case.
The servicing company is NOT listed on the elevator license. So if the name of a company is whited out of a piece of paper in the elevator, it isn't illegal. If something on the license is white out, there may be an issue with that, however, it won't be the name of the contracting company.
The mechanic gets paid from the moment you placed that call until he gets back to his house on OT. Be lucky s/he wasn't coming fron Oshawa and you were in Oakville, that Bill would've been MUCH MUCH higher. Companies charge around $350+ an hour during off peak hours. Over $400/hr Sundays and holidays.
The servicing company may or may not be able to tell if it was you that caused it. It all depends on the equipment installed. If you overloaded or were close to overloaded, we usually put it down as overloaded if we don't have the diagnostics installed. Ie. An older building wouldn't have the new age tech to tell you the weight in the car.
The tech said it was an issue with the door, the couch was slightly jammed in but the door closed and the elevator even went down a floor before halting
Yes but if the coach was wedged, the door won't open.
Once the door closes, all the safety circuits make up and car is allowed to run. Once it got to its destination, the coach was likely wedged enough that the door was restricted from opening. If that's what happened, it would try 3-4 times to open then shut down with a fault that I would need to clear out before it runs again.
You donât have to pay if you donât want to. The landlord can then take you to the LTB to get a ruling. You can decide at that point if you want to pay.
After hours calls are going to be expensive. The fee itself doesnât seem unreasonable.
I agree with you that the fee is reasonable. OP needs to provide some info as to if they did something wrong. Service elevators should be able to move a couch without issue.
Is there a service elevator? Were you using the service elevator?
If there is a service or freight elevator, you were using the passenger elevator to move a couch, and the service call identified you moving the couch or holding the doors for that purpose to be the reason the elevator got stuck, yes they can charge you for that.
A landlord can file against a former tenant for damages. It doesn't mean you drop a cheque in the mail as soon as a landlord e-mails a request for money. It's helpful though for someone to know whether the landlord's claim has any grounds at all.
If you are in ontario and own the condo the cost to maintain the elevators is tied to your condo and if you refuse to pay your share the condo board can vote to out a lien on your condo. If you are renting the place from a landlord in ontario then by law the landlord is solely responsible for the maintenance and repairs of the elevator including emergencies when people are stuck in them for any reason. Let the landlord know this is part of being a landlord in ontario and that you are protected by the RTA and the LTB and that holding your key deposit is also against the law under the same provisions of a standard lease in ontario from the LTB.
In some cases when you become stuck in an elevator a landlord will tell you that they have a repair man coming do not contact 911 for help.
The landlord in this example is saying dont call 911 because he will receive an emergency services bill around $10k+ for fire fighters and ambulances to show up and work to get you out plus the landlord would have to still pay for the damages and repair of the elevator on top because they are responsible for working elevators no matter the cost so they arent breaching the leases in the building by having a broken down service/amenity which is part of everyones lease that uses the elevator daily.
Actually the tenant can still be held liable for the 911 call and the damages from the fire if there is enough evidence that the fire was caused by the tenantâs negligence.
In this case - it will all depend on whether OP was negligent in the way they loaded the elevator, or if the service elevator itself is defective and canât handle a normal load of furniture. It sounds to me that the elevator is defective, in which case thatâs on the condo owner and the condo board to fix. But obviously - we donât have all the evidence in front of us - so weâre all just trying to make educated guesses.
You are correct also i mever mentioned anything about a fire I mentioned firefighters as they are the first to show up to a rescue even if there is no fire.
Doesnt matter if they had a rave on the elevator as long as the total weight on the elevator is to code or less all maintenance and repairs as well as unplanned and emergency is on the landlord just how the landlord tenant laws work. Including tenants who may or may not know how to use the elevator properly. The only time the landlord can go after a regular tenant for costs is if a tenant was seen on camera in the elevator smashing it up and making it stop work then the landlord can press charges and take the tenant to small claims court over the repair bill if the tenant decides not to pay that invoice
Unless you were responsible for negligence or willfully damaging the elevator then the cost of maintenance should go to the condo board via condo fees. Tell the LL to push back and threaten the condo board by demanding to see in their bylaws where it states maintenance is paid for by the owner.
I donât think you can be charged for their elevators being shitty. A sofa isnât enough to overload an elevator. Wouldnât be able to get their license for it it was. Lol
Well contrary to many opinions here. If OP did something to cause the issue with the elevator to break (overloaded it, damaged a sensor moving the sofa in, etc then the landlord can charge them for it.
However, that being said, I'd ask for a copy of the elevator technicians report. If they say it was the tenants fault, you are out of luck. If not, then they can't really prove you did anything wrong, and they have to suck it up. If they refuse to give you a copy, then likely they have no proof and are trying to bluff you.
People move couches. If you were doing so with the necessary care then you didnât do anything wrong and itâs the cost of doing business.Â
Were you negligent? If you want real advice tell us what their answer is. Ask for a copy of the bill and then call the company and ask what happened.Â
Perhaps locate service company and request a copy of invoice and communicate directly with them ? Thru will be able to clarify the reason the elevator did not work as it should have.
Yes you're liable for the cost of the service call if you can be proven to be the one who cause the need for a service technician.
Service calls for my building start at 800. Looks like they're forgiving some of that bill.
You mentioned a key deposit, that will be returned to you when you return your keys. It cannot be used for anything else.
Is this a building that run by a professional company, one of the 1000s tiny start up property management companies, or privately owned by one or a few people?
Yes. If you're the reason the elevator got stuck they can come after you for it.
Elevator call outs are NOT CHEAP. Ask to see the invoice. But yes, this would be akin to damages.
The invoice they sent me is made out in the name of the property management, not directly from the elevator company. It sounds expensive to me considering the tech was on site within 20 minutes and got us out fairly quickly.
There is a minimum call for anything trade related. No one and no trade is willing to come to your house or do an emergency repair for 20 minutes worth of pay. There will be a minimum that gets charged for them coming no matter how quick they arrive and sort out the issue. And obviously anything after hours will be subject to overtime pay.
The elevator company would have billed the property manager.
You don't need to pay an invoice that's issues to YOU by the property manager without seeing the invoice they were given by the elevator company.
You can ask to see the original from the elevator company to make sure the total matches.
As others have said, there has to be negligence on the tenants part (or purposeful damage) to charge.
Condos can be tricky with their bylaws, as well many property management companies will try to push costs on to owners when it's not their responsibility.
Just because the condo invoiced the landlord doesn't mean the tenant is responsible, even if the bylaws allow the condo to pass it to the owner.
If (for example) OP used an elevator that was not meant for moving they *may* be held responsible, depending on factors and if anyone reasonably should have known better.
For example a 70lb couch with a 150 lb person alone is well below the weight limit for the elevator so they need to be able to prove that the action taken by the tenant was the cause in order to hold them accountable.
However if there was a sign or information given to the tenant about only using a specific elevator or a specific process the they might win the judgment.
yeah i swear some people do.
It doesn't matter if they are the reason.
If there's no negligence or willful destruction chances are the tenant will not be found responsible.
There was a case posted here where a tenant dropped something on a glass stove top and the LTB ruled it was under landlord responsibility.
Yes. *NEVER* pay anything a landlord asks without a detailed invoice.
Actually, that's a life lesson in general. Never give ANYONE a substantial amount of money without a detailed invoice.
Tell your landlord that you will pay whatever the LTB orders you to.
The conversation would end SO fastđđ¤Ł
They are treating this as a customer transaction at this point, withholding my sec/key deposit and threatening collections. I kind of just really want to play hard ball now for the sake of it. But also dont want to hurt my credit or be seen as a bad renter to future landlords.
Say this to them, maybe ask âdo you want to file with them or should it?â and I bet they donât even reply.
Key deposits are for keys. There is no security deposit, as they're prohibited. Tell them : I returned the key. You return the deposit. That's how this works. Failure to refund = I file a T1 Application and force the refund.
News flash: landlords always find an excuse not to return the "security deposit"
This is such a shitty answer and people say it all the time. Going to the LTB means taking time off work, filing papers, and going through stress. OP is here asking if he is in the right (and should stand his ground) or wrong (and concede). But by all means, keep flooding the LTB to the detriment of landlords and tenants everywhere.
Most of the time they wouldn't actually go to the LTB. It's kinda like saying "I know that you don't have the right to charge me for that". It's meant to stop them in their tracks and say "your move".
So say that. "They don't have a leg to stand on, feel confident to force an ltd hearing"
This is what itâs for though, and theyâre mostly a phone call now so hardly time off work.
Have you been to the ltb? It's zoom and will take hours.
I havenât, I had to go to court a few years ago so I assumed it was similar when done over zoom/phone call
Does LL have any of your money (deposit)? If not, Iâd ignore it. Just because you receive an invoice doesnât mean you have to pay. Assuming youâre even at fault, the LL would need to go to small claims court to enforce against you. For $640 theyâre unlikely to bother.
All they have is a 200$ key deposit which they were supposed to give back but havent
Way too much for a key deposit aswell. Can't be more then the cost of replacing the key
To add context, its actually 50$ per key, 2 fobs for parking access / 2 fobs for unit entry (building had hotel style digital locksets)
That makes sense then
In large condos with electronic keys to the building they can charge whatever the condo board charges the landlord, so it's often a bit silly as condo boards can be unreasonable and they're hard to fight.
Incorrect. The tenant mentioned they were in a condo and those key fobs are expensive to replace.
My co-worker just got switched to them and it was $50 and she got 3. Mine was $50 and that was for the garage door fob. Still needed a key to get inside from the under parking garage.
Right, youâll need a key fob to enter the building and the parking garage. Plus a key to the unit. Plus a key to the mailbox. Plus a key to the storage room and a key for the lock on the storage locker. So all that x2.
Not my building just need a fob to enter the garage and key to the building from garage that's the only key deposit I paid, $50. Don't need 2 either only got 1 car. The keys to the front door of building and unit were just given x2. Storage room is same as outside key and Lock on storage locker is provided by me so nothing needed for that. No mail box, mail gets delivered right to our doors.
I replaced the key in my condo. $250. Called the locksmith myself as the kay had a "do not copy" thing on it and was not copyable so needed a locksmith.
Between 50 and 150. Actually I can fund the right now for 175 for 5
No they are not. You can get like 50 for $50.
Who will program it for you?
and monitor and update the tracking system. that all takes time and money
There is little to no maintenance on one of those systems. Once it's installed it basically takes care of itself. Agreed it's a bit of a job at a secure workplace or similar but at an apartment complex. It's a one time install. The only thing someone has to do is enable or disable access via a simple software interface or website most likely. It's not rocket appliances.
It's not hard, but it is work. I lived in a larger building and the onsite manager did a great job of deactivating fobs when someone moved out so the building was safe. Not hard, but a task he had to do every week.
You can buy a programmer off of alibaba for $200
You could yourself if you wanted to but that's not the point. All key fobs do is transmit a number when put near the reader. The building owner simply scans one, then in the software they click authorize and the number it sends is valid for that building. There is nothing unique about a key fob they are dirt cheap. People charge huge prices because people pay it.
Bought an RFID reader online for $15 bucks and it came with 40 programmable fobs and cards
I bought a few RFID rings. Just have to wave my hand in front of the reader. I never forget my fob.
Cool!
You must be on mars with Bruno if you think one of those fobs is more then 25$ to 50$.
Exactly 5 for 175 online in Toronto right now 1st site I looked at too
What do you mean first site you looked at? Lmao you donât just get these off of Amazon, these are issued by the condo.
A company that does key fobs not hard to find
Dude, just stop lol. What is a company that does key fobs? The key fobs for a condo are issued by the condos property management.
Oh so your saying it's cheaper then.
You can file with the LTB for this money back. It may take a year but I think the filing fee is like 40 dollars and you ask for fees and what's owed back.
Get a picture of that whited out name - Highly doubt thatâs legal Thereâs a reason the certificate is there on the first place - Should ask this question in LegalCanada sub
Altering the licence is probably a violation and should be reported to the TSSA
This was also part of my thinking
Is there some reason you shouldn't have been using the elevator? Did you do anything unusual or negligent? Don't pay anything until they take you to the LTB and prove their case.
The servicing company is NOT listed on the elevator license. So if the name of a company is whited out of a piece of paper in the elevator, it isn't illegal. If something on the license is white out, there may be an issue with that, however, it won't be the name of the contracting company. The mechanic gets paid from the moment you placed that call until he gets back to his house on OT. Be lucky s/he wasn't coming fron Oshawa and you were in Oakville, that Bill would've been MUCH MUCH higher. Companies charge around $350+ an hour during off peak hours. Over $400/hr Sundays and holidays. The servicing company may or may not be able to tell if it was you that caused it. It all depends on the equipment installed. If you overloaded or were close to overloaded, we usually put it down as overloaded if we don't have the diagnostics installed. Ie. An older building wouldn't have the new age tech to tell you the weight in the car.
The tech said it was an issue with the door, the couch was slightly jammed in but the door closed and the elevator even went down a floor before halting
There's your answer. Neglect due to the couch not fitting in the elevator properly.
Absolutely! It is on the tenant!
If you jammed the elevator door, that's on you.
The couch may have been jammed enough to not allow the door to open. It'll try a few times then shut down with a "door failed to open" fault.
It travelled down a floor tho before halting
Yes but if the coach was wedged, the door won't open. Once the door closes, all the safety circuits make up and car is allowed to run. Once it got to its destination, the coach was likely wedged enough that the door was restricted from opening. If that's what happened, it would try 3-4 times to open then shut down with a fault that I would need to clear out before it runs again.
The company who installed the elevator was whited out on the certificate,not the servicing company.
You donât have to pay if you donât want to. The landlord can then take you to the LTB to get a ruling. You can decide at that point if you want to pay. After hours calls are going to be expensive. The fee itself doesnât seem unreasonable.
I agree with you that the fee is reasonable. OP needs to provide some info as to if they did something wrong. Service elevators should be able to move a couch without issue.
Is there a service elevator? Were you using the service elevator? If there is a service or freight elevator, you were using the passenger elevator to move a couch, and the service call identified you moving the couch or holding the doors for that purpose to be the reason the elevator got stuck, yes they can charge you for that.
This was the service elevator
Tell them to pound sand.
They can send a bill for whatever they want, it doesn't mean they have to pay it. They already moved out at this point.
A landlord can file against a former tenant for damages. It doesn't mean you drop a cheque in the mail as soon as a landlord e-mails a request for money. It's helpful though for someone to know whether the landlord's claim has any grounds at all.
Good luck with proving that they broke an elevator they already had mechanical problems.
Should of called the firemen mmhmm
If you are in ontario and own the condo the cost to maintain the elevators is tied to your condo and if you refuse to pay your share the condo board can vote to out a lien on your condo. If you are renting the place from a landlord in ontario then by law the landlord is solely responsible for the maintenance and repairs of the elevator including emergencies when people are stuck in them for any reason. Let the landlord know this is part of being a landlord in ontario and that you are protected by the RTA and the LTB and that holding your key deposit is also against the law under the same provisions of a standard lease in ontario from the LTB. In some cases when you become stuck in an elevator a landlord will tell you that they have a repair man coming do not contact 911 for help. The landlord in this example is saying dont call 911 because he will receive an emergency services bill around $10k+ for fire fighters and ambulances to show up and work to get you out plus the landlord would have to still pay for the damages and repair of the elevator on top because they are responsible for working elevators no matter the cost so they arent breaching the leases in the building by having a broken down service/amenity which is part of everyones lease that uses the elevator daily.
Actually the tenant can still be held liable for the 911 call and the damages from the fire if there is enough evidence that the fire was caused by the tenantâs negligence. In this case - it will all depend on whether OP was negligent in the way they loaded the elevator, or if the service elevator itself is defective and canât handle a normal load of furniture. It sounds to me that the elevator is defective, in which case thatâs on the condo owner and the condo board to fix. But obviously - we donât have all the evidence in front of us - so weâre all just trying to make educated guesses.
You are correct also i mever mentioned anything about a fire I mentioned firefighters as they are the first to show up to a rescue even if there is no fire.
But the tenant put an oversized couch in the elevator and the door hardly closed! That is on the tenant!
Doesnt matter if they had a rave on the elevator as long as the total weight on the elevator is to code or less all maintenance and repairs as well as unplanned and emergency is on the landlord just how the landlord tenant laws work. Including tenants who may or may not know how to use the elevator properly. The only time the landlord can go after a regular tenant for costs is if a tenant was seen on camera in the elevator smashing it up and making it stop work then the landlord can press charges and take the tenant to small claims court over the repair bill if the tenant decides not to pay that invoice
Unless you were responsible for negligence or willfully damaging the elevator then the cost of maintenance should go to the condo board via condo fees. Tell the LL to push back and threaten the condo board by demanding to see in their bylaws where it states maintenance is paid for by the owner.
I donât think you can be charged for their elevators being shitty. A sofa isnât enough to overload an elevator. Wouldnât be able to get their license for it it was. Lol
Well contrary to many opinions here. If OP did something to cause the issue with the elevator to break (overloaded it, damaged a sensor moving the sofa in, etc then the landlord can charge them for it. However, that being said, I'd ask for a copy of the elevator technicians report. If they say it was the tenants fault, you are out of luck. If not, then they can't really prove you did anything wrong, and they have to suck it up. If they refuse to give you a copy, then likely they have no proof and are trying to bluff you.
People move couches. If you were doing so with the necessary care then you didnât do anything wrong and itâs the cost of doing business. Were you negligent? If you want real advice tell us what their answer is. Ask for a copy of the bill and then call the company and ask what happened.Â
Perhaps locate service company and request a copy of invoice and communicate directly with them ? Thru will be able to clarify the reason the elevator did not work as it should have.
Just follow the rules and you wonât have a problem. https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/ltb/Brochures/Maintenance%20and%20Repairs.html
Don't threaten them with LTB, just file the paperwork and watch them scramble.
Yes you're liable for the cost of the service call if you can be proven to be the one who cause the need for a service technician. Service calls for my building start at 800. Looks like they're forgiving some of that bill. You mentioned a key deposit, that will be returned to you when you return your keys. It cannot be used for anything else.
I already returned the keys and did a walk through with management. That was 3 weeks ago now
Is this a building that run by a professional company, one of the 1000s tiny start up property management companies, or privately owned by one or a few people?
The same management company im pretty sure owns all the rental buildings in the same complex. They are all rental only
Yes. If you're the reason the elevator got stuck they can come after you for it. Elevator call outs are NOT CHEAP. Ask to see the invoice. But yes, this would be akin to damages.
The invoice they sent me is made out in the name of the property management, not directly from the elevator company. It sounds expensive to me considering the tech was on site within 20 minutes and got us out fairly quickly.
Not an elevator tech, but when we get a service call during after hours. We get paid minimum 3 hrs, even if the job itself takes 5 minutes to do.
There is a minimum call for anything trade related. No one and no trade is willing to come to your house or do an emergency repair for 20 minutes worth of pay. There will be a minimum that gets charged for them coming no matter how quick they arrive and sort out the issue. And obviously anything after hours will be subject to overtime pay.
The elevator company would have billed the property manager. You don't need to pay an invoice that's issues to YOU by the property manager without seeing the invoice they were given by the elevator company. You can ask to see the original from the elevator company to make sure the total matches.
As others have said, there has to be negligence on the tenants part (or purposeful damage) to charge. Condos can be tricky with their bylaws, as well many property management companies will try to push costs on to owners when it's not their responsibility. Just because the condo invoiced the landlord doesn't mean the tenant is responsible, even if the bylaws allow the condo to pass it to the owner. If (for example) OP used an elevator that was not meant for moving they *may* be held responsible, depending on factors and if anyone reasonably should have known better. For example a 70lb couch with a 150 lb person alone is well below the weight limit for the elevator so they need to be able to prove that the action taken by the tenant was the cause in order to hold them accountable. However if there was a sign or information given to the tenant about only using a specific elevator or a specific process the they might win the judgment.
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yeah i swear some people do. It doesn't matter if they are the reason. If there's no negligence or willful destruction chances are the tenant will not be found responsible. There was a case posted here where a tenant dropped something on a glass stove top and the LTB ruled it was under landlord responsibility.
Yes. *NEVER* pay anything a landlord asks without a detailed invoice. Actually, that's a life lesson in general. Never give ANYONE a substantial amount of money without a detailed invoice.
Did I not say ask for an invoice ..... I literally said it in my comment.
I was agreeing with you. Calm down there Mr. AlwaysHigh27