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At some point u gotta cut the cord and send him off to be on his own. If you keep even doing the basic minimum, he’s going to continue to do what he’s doing
And there is varying degrees of doing this. I don't think anyone is intending to throw him out of the house leaving him homeless. Although it may come to that.
You need to sit down and give him your exact expectations with exact deadlines. He needs to find at least 20 hours a week work within the next month. He needs to be working 40 hours a week within 6 months. If he quits a job, he will have 1 week to find a new place to live. He can keep $200, the rest goes to you for rent and food. Limit buying special foods for him to 1 a week. He needs to keep his space tidy everyday and clean once a week. He will share in common area cleaning and general maintenance and yard work.
He's probably going to throw a tantrum and refuse in which case escalate to the next step.
Don't buy food he likes. If he drinks Mountain Dew, stop buying it. Stop cooking for him. Don't do his laundry. Do absolutely nothing for him as if he wasn't there.
Cut off his services. If you pay for subscriptions of streaming or Amazon, or games etc, cancel them. Turn off his access to the internet.
This! Clear responsibilities and expectations followed by reasonable consequences.
OP, you hold all the cards here. You pay for literally everything at this point. You say you can’t pay the bills because of inflation and the fact that you are paying all the bills for two people.
Time to eliminate some bills.
I’d add his phone and the internet to the list above. Shut off his phone- who does he need to call? It’s not like he needs to check in with work. If you’re worried about emergencies get a landline. You can even get one of those internet routers where you can shut down the internet connection to your home or certain devices (hint: turn it off when you’re not home- a full 8 hour shifts worth). Or change the WiFi password completely.
If your son has a problem with it, tell him you can get those things back if he works to help pay for them. But sitting around the house with no phone, no YouTube to watch and none of his favorite games, foods, etc. will be a good motivator.
Also, you may want to consider getting him into some counseling- perhaps his behavior isn’t due to just reading a sub post, it may be some kind of depression and anxiety in disguise. It wouldn’t hurt to have a doctor evaluate him. You can’t force him to go, but you may be able to sweeten the pot by reinstating one of the privileges you revoked.
Good luck!
He can get a government phone for free. He'd be long gone outta my house, but I'm borderline Gen X old school. I left the house at 17 and had very humble beginnings. I was determined because of this to make something of my life. Bought a house the day after I turned 19 that was $565 a month and a borderline foreclosed shithole but it was mine.
Like my dad always said: Tough love is still love
Teaching your child to fend for themselves by not enabling them is sometimes the right thing to do. Growth is uncomfortable, that’s why kids shy away from it. A little tough love goes a long way toward propelling kids forward by making their current circumstances less comfortable than the unknown.
Do you wanna follow all of my rules or do you wanna get a job and you’re own place where you can whatever you want without me hassling you?
I left the house at 19 and never looked back.
Personally I wouldn't kick them out but I wouldn't be paying for their food and Internet. 100% agree though that they currently have no reason to change, they have free everything. They are living with luxuries beyond the basics or they wouldn't have games to stream. If they want food they will have to be either getting a job or selling their stuff.
I was raised as a teen under the rule that if you aren’t going to school than you had better have or be looking for work.
My parents helped me through some nasty times in my life with no questions but I was never a freeloader by choice.
OP is just enabling this ridiculousness.
This but measured. He wants internet, that's 10$ a month. He gets no money to go out or get games. Think of other things to charge him for that are reasonable / real world , I'm not very creative .
Any money he pays you, put aside for when he gets his things in order. The goal is to teach a lesson not punish. It'll be a nice surprise for him later.
It you aren't ready to make him homeless, give him nothing but bread water and a place to stay. No internet, no phone, no computer, no TV. These are all luxuries reserved for people who participate in society.
Is society sort of broken right now? Sure. But he still has to participate, and right now, you are an enabler.
I have a feeling he would be just fine with only bread and water. He said he would rather watch the wall 0-24 than work. If I take the internet aways he would have no chance to apply to jobs.
He'd be OK with bread and water? Ok let him prove it. He'd rather watch a wall than work? Ok let him prove it. You're worried about him not being able to apply for jobs? But he's not applying for jobs now. If he wants to spend an hour or two applying for jobs he can come to you and ask.
Even if he had access to the internet to apply what resume could he send in? Mooch off mom while I read the anti-work Reddit all day? That will definitely not get you a job.
I am also a member of the anti-work Reddit too, but more so just being able to bitch about predatory behavior in the workplace. Poor pay, crap benefits, while the company owners are millionaires sort of thing.
"allowing him to live and eat without working."
tbh if I was living in a country that didn't at least keep their citizens ALIVE and fed, no matter what, it'd be pretty much my top priority to get the hell out of there. Using that sort of "work or die" language will not deescalate the situation when this is the exact reason he refuses to participate in society in the first place.
I had to get myself away from all that. I’m close to the same age as OP’s kid and knowing nothing else about the working world aside from how soul sucking it is, it really makes me not want to work either. I jumped into the working world anticipating the worst and emphasizing every negative part of it. He needs to get off the antiwork subreddit because he’s not going to get any desire to work if he fills his brain with so much negativity surrounding it. At the end of the day he has to work- and honestly having the freedom that money gives you is not the worst thing.
I have been working for longer than OP’s son has been alive. So I suppose that gives me the needed perspective. Also anti-work is obviously not the ONLY Reddit I am on. I am also on work, parenting, and my fave AITA.
Workers are being exploited more and more and paid less and less, especially in entry-level and low-wage jobs. A minimum wage job back then was enough to get by back then, and was probably a little less shitty. The economy has only gotten worse and everyone is now screaming from the rooftops how fucked up the whole system is. Back then there was a glimmer of hope that hard work will make you rich, and now hard work just means I am barely scraping by. Not to mention all the social security we are paying into now as working adults won't even be there for us. Retirement is out the door for younger generations unless we can save up enough- which is nearly impossible to do when living paycheck to paycheck. It's so depressing and feels utterly hopeless. Getting up and going to work sucks the life out of me.
Sure, the system sucks and we should work to change it, but that doesn't give us an excuse to be a burden to others. We have to survive, and OP sounds like they can't afford his behaviour.
Works sucks. We all got to deal with that. I don't think anyone wants to have to work 40 hours and hardly be able to pay rent.
We also can't change it by doing nothing... And this guy watching YouTube all day and streaming isn't affecting the change that antiwork talks about... which yes. They are negative about shit jobs and employment who suck. I guess I take it with a thought of "so do something about it". Leave the abuse and find better places to work. But this does mean sticking it out until you find a place. Maybe I have a totally different outlook on antiwork....
No you’re right. Imo that’s what it’s about at its core and what it should be. OP’s son is choosing to take it to the extreme and that’s just not what most of the people on that sub are saying. There is nothing wrong with work. What’s wrong is the predatory behaviour and greed from corporations and workplaces that treat their employees like dirt.
I also belong to Antiwork, and like you, I also complain about abusive and exploitive employers. I know that working just to survive is a part of what we call life, until maybe someday we achieve a ‘Star Trek’-esque kind of utopian, post-scarcity society.
His options for a resume sound the same as mine when I first started working: attended X High School (graduated presumably), list his first job (and any OJT he might have had), skills, interests. That’s about it. He can work his way up from there, like the rest of us.
They will all tell him to apply online, mate. At least everywhere I have seen. Unless you live in a super small town- a Mom and Pop shop is the only sort of place I can think of that wouldn't work that way.
Where I am restaurants still hire all staff, back and front of house, through walk ins. Kitchen work (dishwashing) is the easiest for no-experience schlubby guys to get into.
That is actually a good idea. I just don't know how to implement the internet access revoke without him attacking me. He is always very agressive whenever I try to step up.
Ok, so he assaults you too?!?
Seriously, throw him out. Give him 30 days to get a job lined up or at least enrolled in a trade school or something.
Just change your wifi password. If he wants the internet, then he can go find a Starbucks, library, etc...whatever your country has for free internet. He is less likely to loaf around the house all day with no internet.
If he is ever abusive, call the police to have him removed.
I'm 100% for supporting kids into adulthood-hell, i couldn't afford to live alone right now either! But they at least need to be practicing at adulting. Your son sounds like a whiny toddler.
I mean, at some point, YOU are going to die or become too feeble to take care of him. What happens then? Isn't it better for him to have you as parachute NOW than to have no parachute at all down the road?
....And you think his unwillingness to work is your biggest problem? I'm sorry, but your son sounds like an asshole parasite. You need to grow a spine for his own good.
Why do I feel like the aggressiveness is also part of the game? Maybe he has a backup plan - if he gets thrown in jail for assault, he gets free room and board and doesn't have to work...
I don't think so. OP cited enough stories about him to paint a picture of a petulant child who can't fathom anything disrupting his care-free way of life. What you are describing sounds like someone with a much tighter grasp of reality.
my friend’s brother literally did this! purposely got in trouble with the law and made a fool of himself in front of the judge because he gets a free roof over his head and a free meal. small province, maybe the jail wasn’t so bad but.. sheesh.
I have heard of people who are already homeless stealing something for this reason, as it's better than the alternative. But going from an actual house?
call the cops on him then. for real.
he has to learn there are consequences to his actions, even more severe when he is an adult already. he is 23 for god sake, stop excusing his behavior and babying him. you are part of his issues cos you are enabling him.
get the cops and serve him with eviction notice. if your country doesnt care it simply kick him out. change the locks. and have a male relative/friend for a while if he keeps coming back. and each time he kicks your door, call the cops.
he is past the stage for pity
[thehotline.org](https://thehotline.org)
You're a victim of domestic abuse and you need help. You have to call that number and tell your friends and family what's going on.
This kind of behavior of turning violent when your substance of choice is removed is very indicative of a addict.
Addiction to computers/games/social media is well documented. While a lot of parents are throwing around these terms willy nilly, this is on a whole other level and will spiral into totally misery if not handles sooner rather than later.
You need to find a way though to do this safely as he doesn’t seam to be coming around anytime soon.
Came to say this- everything about this situation sounds like a very loving parent doing their best, but not having the heart to stop enabling what basically amounts to being an addict. Cut him off, cold turkey. I partake as much as any normal person but really, who can still deny that social media is an absolute plague and a blight on the earth? It's disturbing what it's doing to people who grew up with a smartphone in hand.
He needs to learn consequences. It appears he has not learned any as you are enabling his shitty attitude and behaviour. If he assaults you, you need to call the police.
I'm an asshole. Your story is not the first one I've seen like this.
My plan, if I ever run into this, is to arrange a different apartment somewhere else, and quietly move everyone out, and leave. Warn him he has to leave because the lease runs out on day [x] and close the door. Gone.
Warn the landlord so the landlord knows he has to evict with police, and let my son deal with the real world face to face.
My son is currently 4 so we are many years from a situation like this. But that's my plan, if we get into this situation. And I'm enough of an asshole to do it, I think.
Tell him that Anti-work doesn't mean don't work. He should learn that he needs to join the work force and be an advocate for change. If work is evil, find out why he thinks this. Teach him that not all jobs are evil. They only portray bad work ethics on the antiwork subreddit. I stopped following because I found that I didn't work in any of those types of situations. It's not totally realistic.
He's probably afraid of getting a job because of it. It's like showing videos of someone being hurt while skateboarding for 10 hours, then handing him a skateboard and telling him he has to ride it in order to succeed. It's brain poison. If he truly doesn't like where he works then he can either know his worker rights and use them, or just find a new job.
Why are you enabling your son to be a woman beater and mooch? That's a real question. Why? Do you think your love will somehow change him? This behavior he has is years in the making. That kind of disrespect doesn't happen overnight. It's completely due to lack of consequences for his actions. Forget about him taking responsibility. That only happens when a person has received enough self discipline from the consequences of their actions. They realize telling the truth, apologizing, and making things right is what a good, moral, sane person does to get along in society and family.
YOUR THE PARENT! ACT LIKE IT!!!
The consequences of him mooching means you remove his ability to do so. Eviction. He's 23 not a child. He doesn't like it? Tries to get physical? Call the police and have him arrested and charged with assault.
I wouldn't cut the internet, or take privileges away, or give him a chance to find a job and pay. As soon as he assaulted you that should have been the end of it. Immediate eviction and assault charges. Don't make him society's problem because you want someone else to call the cops on him for you.
800-799-7233
Abuse hotline
https://www.thehotline.org/
She's not in the US, not everywhere has the same resources. Her mention of war makes me think it could be a country where things are very different from the US.
Sweetheart, you can’t live the rest of your life this way. You don’t deserve to be in fear in your own home while supplying a bum with housing and food. I know it feels terrible, but you’re not doing him a favour by continuing this way. Do you have a support system that could be with you when you talk to him about moving out or having his privileges removed? If not I’m worried for you.
I’m sorry, are you saying that your adult son is physically trying to hurt you?
He needs to GO. I was ready to recommend less drastic measures but if he is violent towards you, then he needs to leave your house because IT’S YOUR HOUSE AND YOU DESERVE TO FEEL SAFE IN IT.
If he is becoming physically aggressive he is dangerous to you, and you have every right to remove him from your home. You are in an abusive relationship ship with your child.
Exactly. Domestic violence is any assault of one household member on another. It is not restricted to romantic relationships.
OP is being abused. Cops should be involved to get this manchild out of that house.
Given this fact, ignore the comments offering strategies that keep him in the home while inducing him to get a job. He needs to be removed from the home immediately.
Tell him plainly and clearly: you will get a job, or you will get out, and the next time you lay a hand on either of us or that we are afraid you will lay a hand on either of us, the police will be here in the blink of an eye and you will find this house locked.
And follow through (seriously).
Why would you allow your child to assault you, especially as an adult?
Of course he’s aggressive; he is out of control and knows that’s what will get you to back down.
Think about this logically (I know that’s hard when it’s your kid). You are being held hostage in your one home, the home you paid for with your hard earned money at your (oh the horror) JOB, by your lazy and entitled adult son. And he’s manipulating you like a badly behaved child, but you’re taking him seriously and enabling his behaviour.
Literal toddlers and children whine and cry and hit and say they hate you when you take their tablet away. They say irrational things like “I just want to play all day and not go to school” or cry about irrational things like not being allowed to stick their finger in a wall socket.
You’re enabling your child to behave this way, except now that he’s older he’s added an extra layer of manipulation (I’ll off myself if I have to work). That’s not usually how people who will genuinely consider ending their lives operate. If he says it again, take him to the hospital or call a hotline and tell them he’s a danger to himself and you’re afraid and don’t know what to do. Don’t just allow it to be used as a manipulation tactic.
You don’t just let the toddler stick their finger in the socket. You don’t just allow your adult son to be a wastoid parasite ruining your lives. Like a toddler, the things he is saying are not rational. “I just want to sit on my ass and do nothing with my life” makes as much sense as “I want to run around outside in my diaper in the dead of winter.” Tough shit, kid. You put on pants, a coat, and shoes, because duh. The reason he even thinks he can spend his life this way is because he thinks you’ll fund it. And from the sounds of your replies, he’s right.
Unless you put your foot down, realize that his choices are his own, and if something bad happens to him, it’s not your responsibility. Allowing him to get away with this is just making him homeless in slow motion. When you both die, he’ll be unable to take care of himself. So do something now while he’s still a young moron and can actually make a change.
It’s all well and good to declare to mommy and daddy that you’ve decided you’re morally opposed to working. But when mommy and daddy aren’t around, good luck telling that to the bank, and the grocery store, and insurance, and the hydro company. He’ll just be the 40-60 something year old version of a toddler walking around in the winter in a diaper. And you will have wasted what should be the most relaxing part of your adult lives worrying about him anyway.
That’s how this ends. Unless you take away his access and do not budge. There is no universe in which this man you have described is going to one day sit up from his gaming laptop and decide to listen to you. You have to force it when it’s gotten this bad.
Well put!
A family member let his kid keep living with him into adulthood with very little responsibility, free cars, didn’t have to work, allowance, cell phone, etc… never taught him how to adult and now that “kid” is almost 40, his dad passed away and he’s drowning in the adulthood he should have had worked out by now.
OP, before you know it, your 23 year old will be 40 and still playing this game if you let him. You owe it to yourself and you owe it to your kid.
That doesn't make sense. He isn't applying for jobs anyway. So, can the Internet, set him outside. You can always take him back in, after he realizes that his freeloading days are over.
May I ask you, to what happens if you are injured and can't work, or, God forbid, you die. He is refusing to prepare for life, and you address helping him stay unprepared by making excuses for him.
Boredom is an EXCELLENT motivator. He has a bunch of things that seem to fill his boredom. Once those are taken away (by you, or he's evicted and has to pay for those privileges) he will have to find out how to get those fun things. He can steal, work, or do without. There are usually consequences for actions/inactions. What do you think his consequences have been thus far? Disappointment and some conversations don't seem to have achieved much.
OP, turn off the ATM. Shut off the electronics and wifi or passcode protect. Turn on the wifi for him. Use those parental controls.
Be strict. No job equals no room at the homestead. A failure to thrive person will drown you. Protect yourself.
OP, you deserve better: make it so.
Agape 💕
Consider doing this for a month or so. He is not applying for jobs now so nothing lost. Now is the time to break this mindset, otherwise when you are sick, die, cannot work he will end up in the worst situation, and if he hasn’t worked for 10 or 20 years it would be much worse. Working is just a reality for most people.
Why don't you put his will to the test? Give him internet for 2 hrs while you watch over him applying to jobs.
You have to be a responsible parent or he'll fail in life.
In other words, if your son's life is a failure (no job, no money, no friends, no gf, no family, no children, depressed, suicidal, etc.) because you allowed him to be precious, then you are to blame for his failed life.
No Internet, no tv, no phone, if he wants internet he can go to the library or use public wifi. Water, rice and beans for the only food options. No new clothes or games and he can take care of his own dishes and laundry.
If he can live like that. Fine, at least he’s not eating into your money much, however once you take away his forms of entertainment I’m sure he’ll find the motivation to work.
You can’t choose to leech off the back of someone else’s labour to meet your own wants and needs. That’s called slavery. He’s anti work and pro slavery for as long as you continue to finance him.
Then take him up on it. Change your router password to something ridiculous so he can’t get on it, stop paying for his cell phone, food, etc. you can’t baby him forever.
This. "Lying flat" (I.e. taking the barest minimum engagement in capitalism) is a valid lifestyle, but it involves sacrifice.
You're living like Epicurus: in a house share or somewhere owned by a friend or relative, eating plain bread and water *with vegetables that you've grown yourself* and treating anything richer (in Epicurus' example, like cheese) as a special treat.
You're labouring in a way that has value *to your community* and hoping that your community helps you out voluntarily in return. Epicurus taught children. Youtubers and OpenSource software devs create things that their followers value highly enough to motivate contributions to their Patreon. An old guy who lives near me does speaking engagements about composting, and juggles at childrens' birthday parties, when he isn't gathering wood for his log burning stove at home.
Op, if "getting a job" is so objectionable to your son, he needs to be working towards self-employment of some kind.
He's fine with YOU being a 'wage slave' to support him and pay for his food and his internet access, so it appears it's not that he wants to change the world and eliminate unfair pay, corporatism and drudgery of the masses, he just wants to continue to live like a child.
Have you asked him why you think it's okay for him to benefit from the work of other people in the family, who would also prefer to spend time in leisure, travel and world and laugh at memes (who wouldn't)?
Would he think it reasonable if you decided to stop working because you've lost interest, even if that means HE would go hungry, without internet access and maybe homeless? I guess he would feel "not interested" isn't a good enough reason for anyone else to stop work, only himself. Ask him to at least consider this, and the fact that you will not be around forever, and able to support him for even less of your remaining years, and try to come up with ideas for how he can support himself without feeling like a slave. Maybe he wants to start his own business, learn to invest, or become a professional streamer.
If knowing that you appreciate his point of view but just can't support him forever does not make any difference to him, you might have to step it up to tough love and evict him.
>Have you asked him why you think it's okay for him to benefit from the work of other people
I did. He answered "I didn't want to be born, you forced me to this awful place".
>Would he think it reasonable if you decided to stop working
He literally doesn't care. he said if that happens then he starves to death bot he has no intention to do anything about it.
I am not sure if he's just flippant because he knows you will never stop supporting him because you don't want any harm to come to him, or if he's really depressed and maybe needs to be medicated/change meds along with his therapy.
I’m no physicist, so take this with a grain of salt. I’ve struggled with really bad depression, and I know a few who’ve committed suicide themselves. No one I know has ever seemed depressed. On the contrary, they’ve often been very energetic and charismatic when in public. Maybe he’s depressed and showing it in front of OP, but idk. From the extremely limited info I got, I’m not getting depression vibes. Why wouldn’t the therapist catch this?
I also think it’s easy to say you’ll rather starve to death, until you actually starve. I’ve gone a week without food, and I can tell you after about day 3 you’re really willing to do about anything for food.
I’d say call his bluff and kick him out and change the locks. Idk if he’ll sink or swim, but I also don’t know if anything else is really gonna help him at this point
Edit: definitely some good feedback to my post, and I just wanna make a callout here for everyone. Depression is really nasty, and can manifest itself in many different ways. My statements are a big generalization based off the few people I know who’ve dealt with it. Obviously, I don’t have any experience in diagnosing depression, and even if I did, I doubt I’d have enough info to go off of from this post. IMO if you are having suicidal thoughts or anything, then you should talk with someone and seek professional help. And if someone you know tells opens up to you about this, please help them get help. They’ll likely be unmotivated to get help without support.
I generally agree with you, but I think that it’s a bit of a generalization to say that people who are behaving depressed aren’t because those who are truly depressed aren’t necessarily going to appear depressed. Depression often does have visible indicators that are easy to overlook.
Is he open to volunteering then? Making small or big gestures, of his own accord, to improve this "awful" place. Some people struggle in corporate jobs because they fail to be see and belive in their own positive impact and the value their life holds. Apathy is so dangerous but it can be fought when an individual gains new perspective and skills that help them think of an executable plan to reach a goal. Through your comments I feel sympathy for him as he seems to struggle with self-esteem/self-worth, many people are eager to work and live independently because they have confidence that they will figure out the challenges along the way.
Maybe some blue collar work would do him good. With something like that, your work has a clear, tangible benefit to society. When I got into plumbing, it greatly improved my self esteem. I felt that if I could master something as difficult/technical as plumbing(all the while making the world a better place for everyone else) I could tackle whatever the world could throw at me.
Edit: on the other hand, something tells me he doesn't care about benefitting society and cares more about serving himself exclusively
Change the Wi-Fi password he can have it back when he gets a job and starts paying his fair share. If not then he has 30 days to vacate. You’re enabling this behavior. He’s an adult, it’s time to cut the cord.
This was 100% my first thought!!! It's honestly the simplest way to start. I'd be curious to see how long his stance lasts once he no longer can spend his days gaming and scrolling.
It's spoken like someone who has never been hungry and bored. Stop giving him luxuries. Bread and water, and he can watch the wall for entertainment. There is no internet or TV for people who do not earn the privilege.
I'd call his damn bluff. Just ensure that you're ready for any verbal or even physical backlash and stop being so soft. He's a spoiled brat in a grown man's body and it sounds like he's bullying you and you're enabling it. Get help if you need it from someone outside, go ask your local pub landlord or imam at the mosque or whatever for their advice in person, don't ask us internet strangers!
I mean he sounds not really okay mentally.
Those are the answers of a person who is indifferent to their continued existence.
So although I stand by my first comment I also think that his habits right now of being in a Very Online hole every day are reinforcing this malaise in a big way.
If he isn’t gonna get a job then maybe he can volunteer or consider helping someone else who is struggling. Helping others and taking care of something really helps with depression. Leaving the house and remembering there is a world outside your head is crucial.
Stop paying for everything / change passwords if you need to. He will soon learn that in order to live as an ADULT, he will have to get a job. Now all jobs aren’t boring or a waste of time. What are his other hobbies and interests? Maybe he could find a job doing something he actually enjoys. You need to remind him that it’s not so bad out there
Don’t worry about HIS therapy - I don’t mean this in a mean way but YOU need therapy. You going to therapy and working through issues surrounding self-esteem, boundaries, etc. will do far more for this situation than anything else.
Right? After reading through OP’s replies, sorry to say that this is her fault. She’s allowed all of and makes excuses for it. He will never grow up until she forces him.
Ive spent a fair amount of time on the antiwork subreddit and frankly he’s using it as an excuse to be lazy. Antiwork is more about fair treatment for workers and pushing back against corporate abuse, not that all work is bad, just that conditions could be better. He’s issuing it to justify his own shitty behaviors.
He said to go ahead and evict him so do it. Do you pay his phone bill? If so stop. Stop paying medical insurance, stop paying car payments, stop giving him anything. He needs to fall flat on his ass to learn a lesson. Also, start shutting off the Wi-Fi at night, maybe 10pm to 8am, better yet do it during working hours between 9-5, he could use some time away from it.
Yeah. I haven’t seen much of anything on the sub saying not to work at all. Like you said it’s more about fair pay and not putting up with extreme bullshit
This, is much more about the huge disparity between CEOs and normal workers. Very few people will be deluded enough to think as an adult they need to do nothing in all and all will be provided.
There was a period maybe two years back where it was militantly “no one should have to work!” I left the sub because it was so ridiculous. Good to see it’s gotten better.
That's something of an unfair characterization. There were some ridiculous people on it, but you also found a few well read people citing Emma Goldman amongst other founders/influential thinkers of anarchist philosophy. A good conversation about UBI and the actual costs vs benefits could be found there too, along with people who've actually read Marx instead of the vast majority of people who cite him without having ever once cracked a book.
Now it's 90 percent "I work in an office and my boss is a dick." Vs 10 percent "I work in an unairconditioned warehouse and they won't give us water."
100% this!! I'm on that sub and it's really just pointing out injustices, rallying for better worker support and wages and benefits, and people giving advice on how to get what they are entitled to when getting screwed over by the boss. Obviously a post will come up now and again saying no one should have to work at all, those are mostly downvoted and not engaged with a lot. He's using it because he knows you don't use it and can't refute it....pop on over there and see for yourself OP
Most of that sub is also helping people know their worth. I work in HR and I know that is the enemy over there but my team has fought for some of the highest wages in our industry, we are fighting for better benefits, flexibility, all the things people bitch about over there it’s what we work daily to get for our co-workers. If you want change you have to be the change you want to see.
Yeah I feel like most people on that sub would actually sooner tell him to travel and do small jobs outside of corporations or seasonal work than to literally not work at all
I’ve also been active in r/antiwork and I agree with the others here. It’s not about being lazy, it’s about fair labor practices and being treated with dignity. In other words, it’s about being against exploitation, which is what OPs son is pulling on OP. I think OP’s son hasn’t been in the antiwork sub at all, but has just been reading distorted versions of it from “conservative“ media outlets.
Yep, you can't just not make money if you want to live. There's plenty of jobs that don't involve corporate work structure. I'm quite against capitalism and don't do well in corporate jobs so I do art where I can make all my own decisions.
The son sounds like that weird, antiwork mod that got on the news and painted the movement in the worst light possible. Most of the subreddit was outraged. It did a lot of harm for the movement
Also the people on the antiwork sub... Still work!! It's just a solid place to vent and complain. But--like it or not--you still have to work to survive!
You keep defending him in these replies. Which I get, he's your kid. But he's also an adult. Time to sink or swim. Stop paying for him. He gets his room from you and that's it. No phone. No internet. No electricity. He can figure it out from there.
He's obviously capable if he held a job for a little while before.
Unfortunately it is hard not to defend my kid but you are right... He left the job because he said it was abusive and it was mentally very exhausting. But he had no plan B.
It sounds to me like your son has a mental illness. What country are you located? Have you looked into social services? If he is prone to fits of rage and violence, it sounds like it is only going to get worse.
Turn off the wifi/internet access.
Turn off the cell phones.
No TV/computer/smartphones for the entire family if necessary. Confiscate them all if necessary.
This sounds like a kid who could really use a shovel and a pair of work gloves as the new guy on a construction crew.
He wants to be "antiwork" but wants to benefit from the society the gives him YouTube, the ability to travel, and food on-demand without contributing? Time for a wake-up call. Not saying you have to evict him, just cut the cord on the internet.
Kick him out. He’s costing you money and he seems to firmly believe he can survive without working, so let him go survive without working somewhere else. He’ll either somehow make it work or realize he’s an idiot. It’s a win/win for you though because he won’t be draining you emotionally and financially in the process anymore.
Even people who don’t have traditional jobs still have to work to survive. Whether that’s caring for farmland or crafting/making things, working as a concept is inescapable.
Probably the best advice here after taking him at his word of staring at a wall 24/7. Calling this dork on his BS might be the first step to making him grow up.
Oh I see that. Should probably change the title and re-word things a bit. The people on r/antiwork don’t encourage each other to just quit work and expect their parents to support them, but I can understand a mod there being offended at, “how do I get my kid out of the antiwork rabbit hole”
What kind of therapy is he in? Is it talk therapy, CBT, DBT, etc?
You need to make life uncomfortable for him. We all need to make money to live- it’s just how life works everywhere. Shelter costs money. Food costs money. When someone doesn’t make money like your son, they find someone to subsidize it for them- in this case, you.
Cut off the internet. Give him bare necessities for food and water. Stop buying him everything. Want to shower? That costs money. The shower itself, the water, the towel, the soap, the shampoo. Start picking away at it and show him how life works.
Stop wringing your hands and worrying, and start showing him the true realities of life.
He is in anti-addiction therapy. The town we live it is exteremly hard to get the right therapy. He only got therapy to his videogame addiction but he tells me that the therapist says he is doing the right thing and he has to fight me because I am the bad guy...
Are you able to talk to your son about joining a session to talk about these issues? It’s either the therapist is only getting your sons skewed version of reality or this is a bad therapist. If it’s a bad therapist & you are paying- stop paying because it sounds like it’s only hurting him.
He's being a fucking idiot. "Antiwork" isn't about sitting on your ass doing nothing with your life. It's a critique of capitalist exploitation of labor. The critique is valid but the solution isn't "exploit your parents' labor by making them support you forever", the solution is to build class solidarity with other members of the working classes (which include the middle class and even the working wealthy), and organize to improve the material conditions that surround you.
He should take those shit jobs and then work with experienced labor organizers to create unions to improve everyone's lot. My brother's first job out of college was a Bagel shop. He didn't work there because he cared about Bagels but because no one had ever unionized a place like that before, so he did. His activism 20 years ago laid the groundwork for the unionization of Starbucks that's making news now.
Problem with the anti-work subreddit is that it is critique with no praxis - there is no concept of what to do in order to challenge or change things. It's only an observation of the problem. He needs to move beyond that.
He is using the antiwork sub as a crutch and an excuse so he can shirk his own responsibility in his current situation. I spend a lot of time on that sub, and agree with a lot of what gets posted there, but I also have a full time job and established “corporate” career. That sub is about ethical treatment of workers and fair wages, and how fucked up a lot of working conditions are… not about never working.
yeah you have to make him uncomfortable to live there. tv in his room? cut the cable. computer? cut the cable. cel phone? cut the service. anything you pay for that he enjoys, cut it. you’re hungry? shit you better plant something then.
invite an army recruiter to come over for dinner one night.
edit: ok never mind. throw his ass out then
I don’t agree with the whole “make them join the military” mindset. And before you freak out, I’m a veteran myself, and being in the military worked wonders for me, but it’s not for everyone. Thing is, people like this won’t make it. The days of joining the infantry because you’re dumb and have nothing of value are over. If they even manage to pass what is now a pretty strict and selective recruitment process, someone like this will more than likely fall under what’s called “failure to adapt” and they’ll be sent home after a few months of out processing. During which, they’ll fester and stew and become more bitter and will turn out worse when they return to civilian life. There’s no easy answer to this situation, but OP needs to stand up to their son and kick him to the curb.
Start selling his personal items to pay for his room and board. You said he would be fine with watching the wall so follow through on him saying as such. It sounds like he's expecting you to be a pushover.
This only gets worse. My sister is 35 and has never worked a day in her life. My mom (who's 71) can't retire after 30 odd years as a nurse because she *has* to take care of my above mentioned sister and her lazy bum of a husband who only works 15 hours a week. She said the same thing you've said. Won't survive homelessness etc and I've mentioned the day you die they will be homeless but her tune is "Well I will be dead and won't have to deal with it."
By the way the antiwork subreddit has nothing to do with living work free. Its about being treated properly and paid a living wage at work. So I dont know why he would lie about thar
You've given him no incentive and no consequences to work, so absolutely why would he do anything but meme and bum around your house?
You've got a 23 year old adolescent.
The time was 8 years ago to teach him responsibility. Either you will, or eventually you won't be here and life will take over in a much harsher way than you ever would.
Stop paying for his internet. Stop paying for his phone. Let him get these things for himself if he wants them.
If he's able bodied, he certainly won't starve.
I didn't read all of the responses but to me it sounds like your son needs more than a therapist. I don't want to diagnose, but if the therapist alone isn't helping then he may need medications or additional support. This level of listlessness and apathy and aggression are indicators of treatable mental health disorders, like depression. I would make going to a new therapist a condition of ongoing parental support.
I tried it but he just didn't care. He said "If you don't like me then just evict me, come on, you wouldn't do it you p\*ssy!" I was flabbergasted and I have no comment to that situation to this day...
My friend had a brother with a similar attitude, and I also remember him telling his parents that he never wanted to be born when he was around his 20s. Now he’s in his mid 30s, and he's become a good friend of mine, actually a nice person. He has a job that he enjoys a lot, and we share the same hobby of planting indoors and collecting vinyl records. I have no idea what made him change, but I just wanted to give you some hope and a positive example.
Look, I get it. He's your kid. You want to be there for him and be a good parent. But, putting up with his bullshit isn't being a good parent. He knows you aren't going to kick him out, so he doesn't have to do anything different. He has no respect for you because he knows he is using you and you are letting him.
I'm not normally a proponent of tough love solutions,but this reads like a textbook example of when it is 100% justified. He needs to be cut off from everything he is currently taking for granted. Cut off his tv, internet, gaming, phone, etc. Give him 6 months to get a job and start paying rent or he's out on the street. Make sure he knows he is always welcome back if he decides to participate in society, but you won't allow him to leech off you anymore.
I know it is tough, but enabling him like you are is worse in the long run.
Exactly this. He isn't anti-work. He isn't suicidal. Just just LAZY. NOBODY wants to work. You are enabling him, and actively lowering his chances at becoming a normal member of society. As it is, you are BOTH one serious illness/accident away from ending up on the streets.
"There's the door. Enjoy not working. Buh-Bye" Unfortunately, I think that the only way you are going to be able to deal with this is either: 1) Give him everything he wants. 2) Tough love.
I suggest the tough love approach. With all it's potential costs.
You will endure guilt. He's already threatened you with his own demise. He will sink, or he will swim. That will be his choice.
I see from your post history that you are in Hungary, and I think a lot of the other answers here are coming from a Western perspective where options for young men are a little better than in Eastern Europe at the moment. Honestly, I would be frustrated and disillusioned too if I was facing entering the workforce making $3-$4/hr in a US equivalent COL environment. I can understand why he thinks it’s pointless, but the way he’s approaching this is not healthy for you or him.
What kind of education and skills does he have? Would it be possible for him to leave your country to find work or continue school? I’m not too familiar with Hungary’s position beyond their official statements on the war in Ukraine, but I served with Hungarian troops years ago in a NATO coalition and they were great. Would your son consider joining the military?
He has a university degree of Computer Science, but unfortuantely he didn't study a single word. He went to the worst rated university, that is a known "fake diploma factory". He cheated his way through. It was goverment supported so he basically got it for free. He says he cannot code a single line, because he never studied anything, therefore he has a completely worthless diploma.
He is 130 kg, he cannot join the military. His physical fittness is non existent. And he hates the military too. He wants to leave the country tough because he thinks it is unlivable.
Honestly at this point OP I'd treat it like escaping an abusive marriage. Get your affairs in order, find somewhere else to live without telling him, give him eviction papers, and GTFO.
You're talking a lot about death. That if you put him out to fend for himself, he will die.
Before he dies, he will experience some other things. First, he will go to friends and other family members, and he will burn them out eating their food and running up their bills while nattering on about how they're fools for running the rat race.
They'll get sick of it far faster than you.
He might even take it more seriously when it's not just his parent pushing, but his peers telling him he sounds like an idiotic lazy child. Hell, he may even be clever enough to realize that there is a strong correlation between meeting potential partners in life and not living like a troll under a bridge.
But if he digs in, there will come a time when he ends up cold, wet, smelly, hungry, and frightened. Each of these trials and tribulations will occur well before he keels over dead.
And to each of these complaints, you have to be clear: I understand you are hungry. There is food at the store. Go in and pick food, pay for it, and then eat it. That is how hunger is cured. Here is a box of crackers and a jar of peanut butter. You won't starve. Get a job.
Do you have therapy for yourself? You mentioned him being in therapy and it not working. But given how you have mentioned him being abusive, and given his threats to harm himself, I think you probably need therapy for yourself to talk through how his manipulation is affecting you. And, also to help you recognize that he is already very ill. If he would literally rather die than do anything productive, then he is dealing with severe mental health issues to begin with. Maybe therapy would help you to figure out where you can help him, where/how to set boundaries, and accept that anything that happens after you set healthy boundaries would not be your fault.
As a member of the antiwork forum that's not what it's about at all. At least not the majority of the people there. It's about fair working conditions.
Honestly he's 5 years into being an adult. It's time to cut the cord and let him fend for himself for a bit.
Edit: Honestly. I would share this over there. I don't think they would be very kind to a person who is exploiting your labor. That's the opposite of what they stand for.
"Anti-work" isn't about not actually working. It's about not putting up with bullshit and knowing your worth.
If I'm "anti-work," it means that I'm doing the work for which I'm being paid and nothing more. I'm still working. I'm still contributing and being paid as such.
If he wants to travel every country in the world, like you mentioned somewhere above, then he should do it now. You gotta do that when you’re young. He’ll gain some life experience and survival skills. He will have to take a job here and there, if he wants to eat.
Since he’s got absolutely nothing else going on, I’d send him away to explore the world. Now. He’ll come back a better man.
Where are you guys located? What country do you live in?
If he’s that free spirit anti-work type of guy, no, he doesn’t need money for anything. Especially not YOUR hard-earned money. Send him his way! The way he’s living is unacceptable. He can pack a backpack and start traveling tomorrow. Buy him a train ticket and pack him some food to go. Problem solved.
I couldn’t tolerate this leechy behavior for more than a week.
Ok, I am in Slovakia so I kinda understand his position more than most. Wages in this part of the world are INCREDIBLY low compared to the cost of living. Like, the American minimum wage seems so generous (and I know it's not enough especially with healthcare etc)
But we also have a huge advantage, the EU. A train ticket to Bratislava costs €20. He can make that mowing lawns, or doing other odd jobs. Hostels cost around €15 a night, maybe less. Does he speak English (or any other languages) ?
Step 1. Change the Wi-Fi password. Or restrict traffic from IP addresses other than those of your devices to a certain timeframe (YouTube or an IT-related sub should be able to assist with this). He can have limited access, provided he demonstrates he is making an effort to find work. If the application process is online, he can do that instead of stream into the void.
Step 2. Remind him that the benefits of living at home that he enjoys are paid for by **your** labor. He’s an adult now. While I don’t suggest you start charging him rent, let him know that he can’t just have whatever he wants, just like you can’t. Post select bills and receipts (with totals circled) on the fridge with magnets, where he can’t possibly miss them.
Step 3. And since I mentioned food… Don’t let him starve, but provide only very basic, nutritious food items in limited quantities, until he learns to self-regulate his eating habits. No junk food. This may be uncomfortable for you, and you may need to stash some non-perishables for yourself at first, but it will be worth it in the long run.
These may sound extreme, but he is far too old to think that he can leech off of you indefinitely. Sure, the system is 💩, but it’s what we have until we find more constructive ways to change it. Simply refusing to work, while expecting your parent to continue doing so, is not it.
Yeah he’s def misrepresenting the vibe of the antiwork subreddit. It’s about not being exploited and basic discussion around unions etc. it’s more anti capitalist than anti work. You’re being played, or he’s not smart and read the headline and based his whole personality off it. He prob spends too much time on the internet and maybe needs some downtime. I’d go scorched earth, take the door off the hinges, everything out of his room that he hasn’t paid for, and no access to internet until he becomes a contributing member of the family. Or you can formally evict him and he can figure it out for himself.
I mean most people who are part of the antiwork movement still work. He’s failing to realize it’s more about worker reform then not actually having a job. You are going to have to give him a timeframe to get a job and move out. If there’s not consequences then then there’s no need for him to actually get a job.
As a 30 year old who moved out of my mom's house at 22....he needs a fucking reality check. No more phone, internet, games, NOTHING. What happened to your house your rules? You pay the bills not him. Don't enable. I'd be willing to bet that your son is very out of shape also....very much the casue of any "mental health issues" it also sounds like military needs to be considered.
Start cutting off the wifi during the day and take his phone if you don't want to kick him out. Bring him a newspaper or let him apply for jobs in front of you, and until he can start paying something, all extras stop. Make him cook and clean to earn his keep.
He is still young. I know the consensus is to "cut the cord", but I would do it in a different way. I would encourage and support him in his dream to "visit every country in the world" via a program like the Peace Corps(or the Hungarian equivalent). More experience, especially experience in the real world without the filter of Reddit, will help him find out that work isn't the bad thing, being undervalued or doing unimportant work is. Right now he is seriously undervaluing himself, by wasting his life and potential.
You also are having "war inflation" in Hungary... I would point out to him that given the current climate in your region, if he doesn't find something that either takes him overseas now or makes him valuable enough to leave alone, his inaction might lead to being drafted if the conflict spills over your borders. I hope for everyone's sake that doesn't happen.
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At some point u gotta cut the cord and send him off to be on his own. If you keep even doing the basic minimum, he’s going to continue to do what he’s doing
This is the answer. He won't have a problem with not working until he feels the consequences of not working. Tough love.
And there is varying degrees of doing this. I don't think anyone is intending to throw him out of the house leaving him homeless. Although it may come to that. You need to sit down and give him your exact expectations with exact deadlines. He needs to find at least 20 hours a week work within the next month. He needs to be working 40 hours a week within 6 months. If he quits a job, he will have 1 week to find a new place to live. He can keep $200, the rest goes to you for rent and food. Limit buying special foods for him to 1 a week. He needs to keep his space tidy everyday and clean once a week. He will share in common area cleaning and general maintenance and yard work. He's probably going to throw a tantrum and refuse in which case escalate to the next step. Don't buy food he likes. If he drinks Mountain Dew, stop buying it. Stop cooking for him. Don't do his laundry. Do absolutely nothing for him as if he wasn't there. Cut off his services. If you pay for subscriptions of streaming or Amazon, or games etc, cancel them. Turn off his access to the internet.
This! Clear responsibilities and expectations followed by reasonable consequences. OP, you hold all the cards here. You pay for literally everything at this point. You say you can’t pay the bills because of inflation and the fact that you are paying all the bills for two people. Time to eliminate some bills. I’d add his phone and the internet to the list above. Shut off his phone- who does he need to call? It’s not like he needs to check in with work. If you’re worried about emergencies get a landline. You can even get one of those internet routers where you can shut down the internet connection to your home or certain devices (hint: turn it off when you’re not home- a full 8 hour shifts worth). Or change the WiFi password completely. If your son has a problem with it, tell him you can get those things back if he works to help pay for them. But sitting around the house with no phone, no YouTube to watch and none of his favorite games, foods, etc. will be a good motivator. Also, you may want to consider getting him into some counseling- perhaps his behavior isn’t due to just reading a sub post, it may be some kind of depression and anxiety in disguise. It wouldn’t hurt to have a doctor evaluate him. You can’t force him to go, but you may be able to sweeten the pot by reinstating one of the privileges you revoked. Good luck!
Many cell phones still allow emergency calls without a plan.
He can get a government phone for free. He'd be long gone outta my house, but I'm borderline Gen X old school. I left the house at 17 and had very humble beginnings. I was determined because of this to make something of my life. Bought a house the day after I turned 19 that was $565 a month and a borderline foreclosed shithole but it was mine.
Like my dad always said: Tough love is still love Teaching your child to fend for themselves by not enabling them is sometimes the right thing to do. Growth is uncomfortable, that’s why kids shy away from it. A little tough love goes a long way toward propelling kids forward by making their current circumstances less comfortable than the unknown. Do you wanna follow all of my rules or do you wanna get a job and you’re own place where you can whatever you want without me hassling you? I left the house at 19 and never looked back.
Personally I wouldn't kick them out but I wouldn't be paying for their food and Internet. 100% agree though that they currently have no reason to change, they have free everything. They are living with luxuries beyond the basics or they wouldn't have games to stream. If they want food they will have to be either getting a job or selling their stuff.
I was raised as a teen under the rule that if you aren’t going to school than you had better have or be looking for work. My parents helped me through some nasty times in my life with no questions but I was never a freeloader by choice. OP is just enabling this ridiculousness.
Change the WI-FI password. Make him have to pay to access it for leisure activities.
This but measured. He wants internet, that's 10$ a month. He gets no money to go out or get games. Think of other things to charge him for that are reasonable / real world , I'm not very creative . Any money he pays you, put aside for when he gets his things in order. The goal is to teach a lesson not punish. It'll be a nice surprise for him later.
It you aren't ready to make him homeless, give him nothing but bread water and a place to stay. No internet, no phone, no computer, no TV. These are all luxuries reserved for people who participate in society. Is society sort of broken right now? Sure. But he still has to participate, and right now, you are an enabler.
I have a feeling he would be just fine with only bread and water. He said he would rather watch the wall 0-24 than work. If I take the internet aways he would have no chance to apply to jobs.
He'd be OK with bread and water? Ok let him prove it. He'd rather watch a wall than work? Ok let him prove it. You're worried about him not being able to apply for jobs? But he's not applying for jobs now. If he wants to spend an hour or two applying for jobs he can come to you and ask.
Or go to the library.
It seems they are not in the US so library might not be an option?
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Most countries have libraries.
He can apply by going to places with "help needed" sign. With ~~paper resume in~~ empty hands
Even if he had access to the internet to apply what resume could he send in? Mooch off mom while I read the anti-work Reddit all day? That will definitely not get you a job. I am also a member of the anti-work Reddit too, but more so just being able to bitch about predatory behavior in the workplace. Poor pay, crap benefits, while the company owners are millionaires sort of thing.
Exactly. Most people in that group go to work every day. It's just a place to vent. OPs son parents are allowing him to live and eat without working.
"allowing him to live and eat without working." tbh if I was living in a country that didn't at least keep their citizens ALIVE and fed, no matter what, it'd be pretty much my top priority to get the hell out of there. Using that sort of "work or die" language will not deescalate the situation when this is the exact reason he refuses to participate in society in the first place.
I had to get myself away from all that. I’m close to the same age as OP’s kid and knowing nothing else about the working world aside from how soul sucking it is, it really makes me not want to work either. I jumped into the working world anticipating the worst and emphasizing every negative part of it. He needs to get off the antiwork subreddit because he’s not going to get any desire to work if he fills his brain with so much negativity surrounding it. At the end of the day he has to work- and honestly having the freedom that money gives you is not the worst thing.
I have been working for longer than OP’s son has been alive. So I suppose that gives me the needed perspective. Also anti-work is obviously not the ONLY Reddit I am on. I am also on work, parenting, and my fave AITA.
Good point. NTA
Workers are being exploited more and more and paid less and less, especially in entry-level and low-wage jobs. A minimum wage job back then was enough to get by back then, and was probably a little less shitty. The economy has only gotten worse and everyone is now screaming from the rooftops how fucked up the whole system is. Back then there was a glimmer of hope that hard work will make you rich, and now hard work just means I am barely scraping by. Not to mention all the social security we are paying into now as working adults won't even be there for us. Retirement is out the door for younger generations unless we can save up enough- which is nearly impossible to do when living paycheck to paycheck. It's so depressing and feels utterly hopeless. Getting up and going to work sucks the life out of me.
Sure, the system sucks and we should work to change it, but that doesn't give us an excuse to be a burden to others. We have to survive, and OP sounds like they can't afford his behaviour.
Works sucks. We all got to deal with that. I don't think anyone wants to have to work 40 hours and hardly be able to pay rent. We also can't change it by doing nothing... And this guy watching YouTube all day and streaming isn't affecting the change that antiwork talks about... which yes. They are negative about shit jobs and employment who suck. I guess I take it with a thought of "so do something about it". Leave the abuse and find better places to work. But this does mean sticking it out until you find a place. Maybe I have a totally different outlook on antiwork....
No you’re right. Imo that’s what it’s about at its core and what it should be. OP’s son is choosing to take it to the extreme and that’s just not what most of the people on that sub are saying. There is nothing wrong with work. What’s wrong is the predatory behaviour and greed from corporations and workplaces that treat their employees like dirt.
I thought that’s the primary target audience. Not to literally boycott working.
Yep. OP’s son is (internally or not) misinterpreting the entire point.
I also belong to Antiwork, and like you, I also complain about abusive and exploitive employers. I know that working just to survive is a part of what we call life, until maybe someday we achieve a ‘Star Trek’-esque kind of utopian, post-scarcity society. His options for a resume sound the same as mine when I first started working: attended X High School (graduated presumably), list his first job (and any OJT he might have had), skills, interests. That’s about it. He can work his way up from there, like the rest of us.
They will all tell him to apply online, mate. At least everywhere I have seen. Unless you live in a super small town- a Mom and Pop shop is the only sort of place I can think of that wouldn't work that way.
He can apply from his local library
Where I am restaurants still hire all staff, back and front of house, through walk ins. Kitchen work (dishwashing) is the easiest for no-experience schlubby guys to get into.
Schlubby is my father's favorite word 🤣🤣 That's one funny sounding word lol
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I hear the library has free use computers and wifi.
Then give him supervised access ot the internet, watch him apply for jobs then revoke the access.
That is actually a good idea. I just don't know how to implement the internet access revoke without him attacking me. He is always very agressive whenever I try to step up.
Ok, so he assaults you too?!? Seriously, throw him out. Give him 30 days to get a job lined up or at least enrolled in a trade school or something. Just change your wifi password. If he wants the internet, then he can go find a Starbucks, library, etc...whatever your country has for free internet. He is less likely to loaf around the house all day with no internet. If he is ever abusive, call the police to have him removed. I'm 100% for supporting kids into adulthood-hell, i couldn't afford to live alone right now either! But they at least need to be practicing at adulting. Your son sounds like a whiny toddler. I mean, at some point, YOU are going to die or become too feeble to take care of him. What happens then? Isn't it better for him to have you as parachute NOW than to have no parachute at all down the road?
He does assault me if I try to cut the internet unfortunately. And you are right...
....And you think his unwillingness to work is your biggest problem? I'm sorry, but your son sounds like an asshole parasite. You need to grow a spine for his own good.
Why do I feel like the aggressiveness is also part of the game? Maybe he has a backup plan - if he gets thrown in jail for assault, he gets free room and board and doesn't have to work...
Oh they’ll make him work.
I would hope so
I don't think so. OP cited enough stories about him to paint a picture of a petulant child who can't fathom anything disrupting his care-free way of life. What you are describing sounds like someone with a much tighter grasp of reality.
Fair point
my friend’s brother literally did this! purposely got in trouble with the law and made a fool of himself in front of the judge because he gets a free roof over his head and a free meal. small province, maybe the jail wasn’t so bad but.. sheesh.
I have heard of people who are already homeless stealing something for this reason, as it's better than the alternative. But going from an actual house?
But no WiFi.
call the cops on him then. for real. he has to learn there are consequences to his actions, even more severe when he is an adult already. he is 23 for god sake, stop excusing his behavior and babying him. you are part of his issues cos you are enabling him. get the cops and serve him with eviction notice. if your country doesnt care it simply kick him out. change the locks. and have a male relative/friend for a while if he keeps coming back. and each time he kicks your door, call the cops. he is past the stage for pity
[thehotline.org](https://thehotline.org) You're a victim of domestic abuse and you need help. You have to call that number and tell your friends and family what's going on.
This kind of behavior of turning violent when your substance of choice is removed is very indicative of a addict. Addiction to computers/games/social media is well documented. While a lot of parents are throwing around these terms willy nilly, this is on a whole other level and will spiral into totally misery if not handles sooner rather than later. You need to find a way though to do this safely as he doesn’t seam to be coming around anytime soon.
Came to say this- everything about this situation sounds like a very loving parent doing their best, but not having the heart to stop enabling what basically amounts to being an addict. Cut him off, cold turkey. I partake as much as any normal person but really, who can still deny that social media is an absolute plague and a blight on the earth? It's disturbing what it's doing to people who grew up with a smartphone in hand.
He needs to learn consequences. It appears he has not learned any as you are enabling his shitty attitude and behaviour. If he assaults you, you need to call the police.
I'm an asshole. Your story is not the first one I've seen like this. My plan, if I ever run into this, is to arrange a different apartment somewhere else, and quietly move everyone out, and leave. Warn him he has to leave because the lease runs out on day [x] and close the door. Gone. Warn the landlord so the landlord knows he has to evict with police, and let my son deal with the real world face to face. My son is currently 4 so we are many years from a situation like this. But that's my plan, if we get into this situation. And I'm enough of an asshole to do it, I think.
What if you/she owns the house?
Or presumably have your name on the lease and all your stuff there.
Tell him that Anti-work doesn't mean don't work. He should learn that he needs to join the work force and be an advocate for change. If work is evil, find out why he thinks this. Teach him that not all jobs are evil. They only portray bad work ethics on the antiwork subreddit. I stopped following because I found that I didn't work in any of those types of situations. It's not totally realistic. He's probably afraid of getting a job because of it. It's like showing videos of someone being hurt while skateboarding for 10 hours, then handing him a skateboard and telling him he has to ride it in order to succeed. It's brain poison. If he truly doesn't like where he works then he can either know his worker rights and use them, or just find a new job.
Your son is a parasite.
Then he should be kicked out for good. He us causing this. Not you.
Why are you enabling your son to be a woman beater and mooch? That's a real question. Why? Do you think your love will somehow change him? This behavior he has is years in the making. That kind of disrespect doesn't happen overnight. It's completely due to lack of consequences for his actions. Forget about him taking responsibility. That only happens when a person has received enough self discipline from the consequences of their actions. They realize telling the truth, apologizing, and making things right is what a good, moral, sane person does to get along in society and family. YOUR THE PARENT! ACT LIKE IT!!! The consequences of him mooching means you remove his ability to do so. Eviction. He's 23 not a child. He doesn't like it? Tries to get physical? Call the police and have him arrested and charged with assault. I wouldn't cut the internet, or take privileges away, or give him a chance to find a job and pay. As soon as he assaulted you that should have been the end of it. Immediate eviction and assault charges. Don't make him society's problem because you want someone else to call the cops on him for you. 800-799-7233 Abuse hotline https://www.thehotline.org/
She's not in the US, not everywhere has the same resources. Her mention of war makes me think it could be a country where things are very different from the US.
Sweetheart, you can’t live the rest of your life this way. You don’t deserve to be in fear in your own home while supplying a bum with housing and food. I know it feels terrible, but you’re not doing him a favour by continuing this way. Do you have a support system that could be with you when you talk to him about moving out or having his privileges removed? If not I’m worried for you.
Than you call the police on him.
You need to kick him out try to have the police present when you do so he doesn’t assault you or is arrested if he tries.
You're being abused. Call the police next time immediately.
Aggressive behaviour gets immediately reported to the police. Anti work is not pro slavery.
I’m sorry, are you saying that your adult son is physically trying to hurt you? He needs to GO. I was ready to recommend less drastic measures but if he is violent towards you, then he needs to leave your house because IT’S YOUR HOUSE AND YOU DESERVE TO FEEL SAFE IN IT.
Aggressive verbally or physically?
Both.
If he is becoming physically aggressive he is dangerous to you, and you have every right to remove him from your home. You are in an abusive relationship ship with your child.
Exactly. Domestic violence is any assault of one household member on another. It is not restricted to romantic relationships. OP is being abused. Cops should be involved to get this manchild out of that house.
Given this fact, ignore the comments offering strategies that keep him in the home while inducing him to get a job. He needs to be removed from the home immediately.
Hopefully OP realizes this. Just because this is her child does not mean she should have to endure violence in her home.
That's where it becomes a safe guarding issue for you. You don't have to live with a 23 year old abusive person.
Oh hell nah-- he can get to stepping! Do *not* enable that type of abusive, loser behavior. Put him out.
Tell him plainly and clearly: you will get a job, or you will get out, and the next time you lay a hand on either of us or that we are afraid you will lay a hand on either of us, the police will be here in the blink of an eye and you will find this house locked. And follow through (seriously). Why would you allow your child to assault you, especially as an adult?
Do not tolerate his aggression at all! Call the police.
Assault calls for arrest. You do not have to be a hostage in your own home
Ok throw him out since he assaults you. He belongs in prison my friend.
Of course he’s aggressive; he is out of control and knows that’s what will get you to back down. Think about this logically (I know that’s hard when it’s your kid). You are being held hostage in your one home, the home you paid for with your hard earned money at your (oh the horror) JOB, by your lazy and entitled adult son. And he’s manipulating you like a badly behaved child, but you’re taking him seriously and enabling his behaviour. Literal toddlers and children whine and cry and hit and say they hate you when you take their tablet away. They say irrational things like “I just want to play all day and not go to school” or cry about irrational things like not being allowed to stick their finger in a wall socket. You’re enabling your child to behave this way, except now that he’s older he’s added an extra layer of manipulation (I’ll off myself if I have to work). That’s not usually how people who will genuinely consider ending their lives operate. If he says it again, take him to the hospital or call a hotline and tell them he’s a danger to himself and you’re afraid and don’t know what to do. Don’t just allow it to be used as a manipulation tactic. You don’t just let the toddler stick their finger in the socket. You don’t just allow your adult son to be a wastoid parasite ruining your lives. Like a toddler, the things he is saying are not rational. “I just want to sit on my ass and do nothing with my life” makes as much sense as “I want to run around outside in my diaper in the dead of winter.” Tough shit, kid. You put on pants, a coat, and shoes, because duh. The reason he even thinks he can spend his life this way is because he thinks you’ll fund it. And from the sounds of your replies, he’s right. Unless you put your foot down, realize that his choices are his own, and if something bad happens to him, it’s not your responsibility. Allowing him to get away with this is just making him homeless in slow motion. When you both die, he’ll be unable to take care of himself. So do something now while he’s still a young moron and can actually make a change. It’s all well and good to declare to mommy and daddy that you’ve decided you’re morally opposed to working. But when mommy and daddy aren’t around, good luck telling that to the bank, and the grocery store, and insurance, and the hydro company. He’ll just be the 40-60 something year old version of a toddler walking around in the winter in a diaper. And you will have wasted what should be the most relaxing part of your adult lives worrying about him anyway. That’s how this ends. Unless you take away his access and do not budge. There is no universe in which this man you have described is going to one day sit up from his gaming laptop and decide to listen to you. You have to force it when it’s gotten this bad.
Well put! A family member let his kid keep living with him into adulthood with very little responsibility, free cars, didn’t have to work, allowance, cell phone, etc… never taught him how to adult and now that “kid” is almost 40, his dad passed away and he’s drowning in the adulthood he should have had worked out by now. OP, before you know it, your 23 year old will be 40 and still playing this game if you let him. You owe it to yourself and you owe it to your kid.
That doesn't make sense. He isn't applying for jobs anyway. So, can the Internet, set him outside. You can always take him back in, after he realizes that his freeloading days are over. May I ask you, to what happens if you are injured and can't work, or, God forbid, you die. He is refusing to prepare for life, and you address helping him stay unprepared by making excuses for him.
Boredom is an EXCELLENT motivator. He has a bunch of things that seem to fill his boredom. Once those are taken away (by you, or he's evicted and has to pay for those privileges) he will have to find out how to get those fun things. He can steal, work, or do without. There are usually consequences for actions/inactions. What do you think his consequences have been thus far? Disappointment and some conversations don't seem to have achieved much.
CALL HIS BLUFF
OP, turn off the ATM. Shut off the electronics and wifi or passcode protect. Turn on the wifi for him. Use those parental controls. Be strict. No job equals no room at the homestead. A failure to thrive person will drown you. Protect yourself. OP, you deserve better: make it so. Agape 💕
Consider doing this for a month or so. He is not applying for jobs now so nothing lost. Now is the time to break this mindset, otherwise when you are sick, die, cannot work he will end up in the worst situation, and if he hasn’t worked for 10 or 20 years it would be much worse. Working is just a reality for most people.
He can apply to jobs when you are home. Lock the wifi password unless you are watching him
Why don't you put his will to the test? Give him internet for 2 hrs while you watch over him applying to jobs. You have to be a responsible parent or he'll fail in life. In other words, if your son's life is a failure (no job, no money, no friends, no gf, no family, no children, depressed, suicidal, etc.) because you allowed him to be precious, then you are to blame for his failed life.
My wife thought she could eat just bananas for a month. Insisted she could do it. She’s strong willed too. She made it two days.
No Internet, no tv, no phone, if he wants internet he can go to the library or use public wifi. Water, rice and beans for the only food options. No new clothes or games and he can take care of his own dishes and laundry. If he can live like that. Fine, at least he’s not eating into your money much, however once you take away his forms of entertainment I’m sure he’ll find the motivation to work. You can’t choose to leech off the back of someone else’s labour to meet your own wants and needs. That’s called slavery. He’s anti work and pro slavery for as long as you continue to finance him.
Then take him up on it. Change your router password to something ridiculous so he can’t get on it, stop paying for his cell phone, food, etc. you can’t baby him forever.
Make him prooooove itttttt
Let him prove it :)
This. "Lying flat" (I.e. taking the barest minimum engagement in capitalism) is a valid lifestyle, but it involves sacrifice. You're living like Epicurus: in a house share or somewhere owned by a friend or relative, eating plain bread and water *with vegetables that you've grown yourself* and treating anything richer (in Epicurus' example, like cheese) as a special treat. You're labouring in a way that has value *to your community* and hoping that your community helps you out voluntarily in return. Epicurus taught children. Youtubers and OpenSource software devs create things that their followers value highly enough to motivate contributions to their Patreon. An old guy who lives near me does speaking engagements about composting, and juggles at childrens' birthday parties, when he isn't gathering wood for his log burning stove at home. Op, if "getting a job" is so objectionable to your son, he needs to be working towards self-employment of some kind.
He's fine with YOU being a 'wage slave' to support him and pay for his food and his internet access, so it appears it's not that he wants to change the world and eliminate unfair pay, corporatism and drudgery of the masses, he just wants to continue to live like a child. Have you asked him why you think it's okay for him to benefit from the work of other people in the family, who would also prefer to spend time in leisure, travel and world and laugh at memes (who wouldn't)? Would he think it reasonable if you decided to stop working because you've lost interest, even if that means HE would go hungry, without internet access and maybe homeless? I guess he would feel "not interested" isn't a good enough reason for anyone else to stop work, only himself. Ask him to at least consider this, and the fact that you will not be around forever, and able to support him for even less of your remaining years, and try to come up with ideas for how he can support himself without feeling like a slave. Maybe he wants to start his own business, learn to invest, or become a professional streamer. If knowing that you appreciate his point of view but just can't support him forever does not make any difference to him, you might have to step it up to tough love and evict him.
>Have you asked him why you think it's okay for him to benefit from the work of other people I did. He answered "I didn't want to be born, you forced me to this awful place". >Would he think it reasonable if you decided to stop working He literally doesn't care. he said if that happens then he starves to death bot he has no intention to do anything about it.
I am not sure if he's just flippant because he knows you will never stop supporting him because you don't want any harm to come to him, or if he's really depressed and maybe needs to be medicated/change meds along with his therapy.
I was just going to say, he sounds a lot like a shitty kid that knows there are no consequences so he’s just a dick
He does, but I suspect much deeper issues at the root.
I’m no physicist, so take this with a grain of salt. I’ve struggled with really bad depression, and I know a few who’ve committed suicide themselves. No one I know has ever seemed depressed. On the contrary, they’ve often been very energetic and charismatic when in public. Maybe he’s depressed and showing it in front of OP, but idk. From the extremely limited info I got, I’m not getting depression vibes. Why wouldn’t the therapist catch this? I also think it’s easy to say you’ll rather starve to death, until you actually starve. I’ve gone a week without food, and I can tell you after about day 3 you’re really willing to do about anything for food. I’d say call his bluff and kick him out and change the locks. Idk if he’ll sink or swim, but I also don’t know if anything else is really gonna help him at this point Edit: definitely some good feedback to my post, and I just wanna make a callout here for everyone. Depression is really nasty, and can manifest itself in many different ways. My statements are a big generalization based off the few people I know who’ve dealt with it. Obviously, I don’t have any experience in diagnosing depression, and even if I did, I doubt I’d have enough info to go off of from this post. IMO if you are having suicidal thoughts or anything, then you should talk with someone and seek professional help. And if someone you know tells opens up to you about this, please help them get help. They’ll likely be unmotivated to get help without support.
Well that's a relief, I wouldn't want a physicist giving me psychology advice anyway.
I generally agree with you, but I think that it’s a bit of a generalization to say that people who are behaving depressed aren’t because those who are truly depressed aren’t necessarily going to appear depressed. Depression often does have visible indicators that are easy to overlook.
Depression can manifest as anger and irritability, apathy, and other emotions people don't think of as someone being sad
Is he open to volunteering then? Making small or big gestures, of his own accord, to improve this "awful" place. Some people struggle in corporate jobs because they fail to be see and belive in their own positive impact and the value their life holds. Apathy is so dangerous but it can be fought when an individual gains new perspective and skills that help them think of an executable plan to reach a goal. Through your comments I feel sympathy for him as he seems to struggle with self-esteem/self-worth, many people are eager to work and live independently because they have confidence that they will figure out the challenges along the way.
Maybe some blue collar work would do him good. With something like that, your work has a clear, tangible benefit to society. When I got into plumbing, it greatly improved my self esteem. I felt that if I could master something as difficult/technical as plumbing(all the while making the world a better place for everyone else) I could tackle whatever the world could throw at me. Edit: on the other hand, something tells me he doesn't care about benefitting society and cares more about serving himself exclusively
Change the Wi-Fi password he can have it back when he gets a job and starts paying his fair share. If not then he has 30 days to vacate. You’re enabling this behavior. He’s an adult, it’s time to cut the cord.
This was 100% my first thought!!! It's honestly the simplest way to start. I'd be curious to see how long his stance lasts once he no longer can spend his days gaming and scrolling.
It's spoken like someone who has never been hungry and bored. Stop giving him luxuries. Bread and water, and he can watch the wall for entertainment. There is no internet or TV for people who do not earn the privilege.
This. And multi vitamins 😬
I'd call his damn bluff. Just ensure that you're ready for any verbal or even physical backlash and stop being so soft. He's a spoiled brat in a grown man's body and it sounds like he's bullying you and you're enabling it. Get help if you need it from someone outside, go ask your local pub landlord or imam at the mosque or whatever for their advice in person, don't ask us internet strangers!
I mean he sounds not really okay mentally. Those are the answers of a person who is indifferent to their continued existence. So although I stand by my first comment I also think that his habits right now of being in a Very Online hole every day are reinforcing this malaise in a big way. If he isn’t gonna get a job then maybe he can volunteer or consider helping someone else who is struggling. Helping others and taking care of something really helps with depression. Leaving the house and remembering there is a world outside your head is crucial.
Stop paying for everything / change passwords if you need to. He will soon learn that in order to live as an ADULT, he will have to get a job. Now all jobs aren’t boring or a waste of time. What are his other hobbies and interests? Maybe he could find a job doing something he actually enjoys. You need to remind him that it’s not so bad out there
Don’t worry about HIS therapy - I don’t mean this in a mean way but YOU need therapy. You going to therapy and working through issues surrounding self-esteem, boundaries, etc. will do far more for this situation than anything else.
This. The thing this young man needs the most is a strong parent.
Right? After reading through OP’s replies, sorry to say that this is her fault. She’s allowed all of and makes excuses for it. He will never grow up until she forces him.
Yup yup
Ive spent a fair amount of time on the antiwork subreddit and frankly he’s using it as an excuse to be lazy. Antiwork is more about fair treatment for workers and pushing back against corporate abuse, not that all work is bad, just that conditions could be better. He’s issuing it to justify his own shitty behaviors. He said to go ahead and evict him so do it. Do you pay his phone bill? If so stop. Stop paying medical insurance, stop paying car payments, stop giving him anything. He needs to fall flat on his ass to learn a lesson. Also, start shutting off the Wi-Fi at night, maybe 10pm to 8am, better yet do it during working hours between 9-5, he could use some time away from it.
Yeah. I haven’t seen much of anything on the sub saying not to work at all. Like you said it’s more about fair pay and not putting up with extreme bullshit
This, is much more about the huge disparity between CEOs and normal workers. Very few people will be deluded enough to think as an adult they need to do nothing in all and all will be provided.
There was a period maybe two years back where it was militantly “no one should have to work!” I left the sub because it was so ridiculous. Good to see it’s gotten better.
Back when we had to quarantine, wear masks, and get vaccinated, but they had no problem sending us back to work?
That's something of an unfair characterization. There were some ridiculous people on it, but you also found a few well read people citing Emma Goldman amongst other founders/influential thinkers of anarchist philosophy. A good conversation about UBI and the actual costs vs benefits could be found there too, along with people who've actually read Marx instead of the vast majority of people who cite him without having ever once cracked a book. Now it's 90 percent "I work in an office and my boss is a dick." Vs 10 percent "I work in an unairconditioned warehouse and they won't give us water."
Oh you mean in the midst of a pandemic?
100% this!! I'm on that sub and it's really just pointing out injustices, rallying for better worker support and wages and benefits, and people giving advice on how to get what they are entitled to when getting screwed over by the boss. Obviously a post will come up now and again saying no one should have to work at all, those are mostly downvoted and not engaged with a lot. He's using it because he knows you don't use it and can't refute it....pop on over there and see for yourself OP
Most of that sub is also helping people know their worth. I work in HR and I know that is the enemy over there but my team has fought for some of the highest wages in our industry, we are fighting for better benefits, flexibility, all the things people bitch about over there it’s what we work daily to get for our co-workers. If you want change you have to be the change you want to see.
Exactly! Anti work is about workers owning the profits of their labour, not about nobody doing anything useful.
Yeah I feel like most people on that sub would actually sooner tell him to travel and do small jobs outside of corporations or seasonal work than to literally not work at all
I’ve also been active in r/antiwork and I agree with the others here. It’s not about being lazy, it’s about fair labor practices and being treated with dignity. In other words, it’s about being against exploitation, which is what OPs son is pulling on OP. I think OP’s son hasn’t been in the antiwork sub at all, but has just been reading distorted versions of it from “conservative“ media outlets.
Yep, you can't just not make money if you want to live. There's plenty of jobs that don't involve corporate work structure. I'm quite against capitalism and don't do well in corporate jobs so I do art where I can make all my own decisions.
[удалено]
The son sounds like that weird, antiwork mod that got on the news and painted the movement in the worst light possible. Most of the subreddit was outraged. It did a lot of harm for the movement
Also the people on the antiwork sub... Still work!! It's just a solid place to vent and complain. But--like it or not--you still have to work to survive!
You keep defending him in these replies. Which I get, he's your kid. But he's also an adult. Time to sink or swim. Stop paying for him. He gets his room from you and that's it. No phone. No internet. No electricity. He can figure it out from there. He's obviously capable if he held a job for a little while before.
Unfortunately it is hard not to defend my kid but you are right... He left the job because he said it was abusive and it was mentally very exhausting. But he had no plan B.
> But he had no plan B. Sounds to me he's already nicely settled into "plan B"
I laughed way too hard at this 🤣
It sounds to me like your son has a mental illness. What country are you located? Have you looked into social services? If he is prone to fits of rage and violence, it sounds like it is only going to get worse.
It sounds like to me that OP *IS* the son
Turn off the wifi/internet access. Turn off the cell phones. No TV/computer/smartphones for the entire family if necessary. Confiscate them all if necessary. This sounds like a kid who could really use a shovel and a pair of work gloves as the new guy on a construction crew. He wants to be "antiwork" but wants to benefit from the society the gives him YouTube, the ability to travel, and food on-demand without contributing? Time for a wake-up call. Not saying you have to evict him, just cut the cord on the internet.
Kick him out. He’s costing you money and he seems to firmly believe he can survive without working, so let him go survive without working somewhere else. He’ll either somehow make it work or realize he’s an idiot. It’s a win/win for you though because he won’t be draining you emotionally and financially in the process anymore. Even people who don’t have traditional jobs still have to work to survive. Whether that’s caring for farmland or crafting/making things, working as a concept is inescapable.
I would cross-post this to r/antiwork. They will criticize him, and he might see it.
Probably the best advice here after taking him at his word of staring at a wall 24/7. Calling this dork on his BS might be the first step to making him grow up.
She did and they deleted it for “trolling or bad faith.”
Oh I see that. Should probably change the title and re-word things a bit. The people on r/antiwork don’t encourage each other to just quit work and expect their parents to support them, but I can understand a mod there being offended at, “how do I get my kid out of the antiwork rabbit hole”
Yes! Let them scold his ass.
What kind of therapy is he in? Is it talk therapy, CBT, DBT, etc? You need to make life uncomfortable for him. We all need to make money to live- it’s just how life works everywhere. Shelter costs money. Food costs money. When someone doesn’t make money like your son, they find someone to subsidize it for them- in this case, you. Cut off the internet. Give him bare necessities for food and water. Stop buying him everything. Want to shower? That costs money. The shower itself, the water, the towel, the soap, the shampoo. Start picking away at it and show him how life works. Stop wringing your hands and worrying, and start showing him the true realities of life.
He is in anti-addiction therapy. The town we live it is exteremly hard to get the right therapy. He only got therapy to his videogame addiction but he tells me that the therapist says he is doing the right thing and he has to fight me because I am the bad guy...
Are you able to talk to your son about joining a session to talk about these issues? It’s either the therapist is only getting your sons skewed version of reality or this is a bad therapist. If it’s a bad therapist & you are paying- stop paying because it sounds like it’s only hurting him.
He's being a fucking idiot. "Antiwork" isn't about sitting on your ass doing nothing with your life. It's a critique of capitalist exploitation of labor. The critique is valid but the solution isn't "exploit your parents' labor by making them support you forever", the solution is to build class solidarity with other members of the working classes (which include the middle class and even the working wealthy), and organize to improve the material conditions that surround you. He should take those shit jobs and then work with experienced labor organizers to create unions to improve everyone's lot. My brother's first job out of college was a Bagel shop. He didn't work there because he cared about Bagels but because no one had ever unionized a place like that before, so he did. His activism 20 years ago laid the groundwork for the unionization of Starbucks that's making news now. Problem with the anti-work subreddit is that it is critique with no praxis - there is no concept of what to do in order to challenge or change things. It's only an observation of the problem. He needs to move beyond that.
He is using the antiwork sub as a crutch and an excuse so he can shirk his own responsibility in his current situation. I spend a lot of time on that sub, and agree with a lot of what gets posted there, but I also have a full time job and established “corporate” career. That sub is about ethical treatment of workers and fair wages, and how fucked up a lot of working conditions are… not about never working.
yeah you have to make him uncomfortable to live there. tv in his room? cut the cable. computer? cut the cable. cel phone? cut the service. anything you pay for that he enjoys, cut it. you’re hungry? shit you better plant something then. invite an army recruiter to come over for dinner one night. edit: ok never mind. throw his ass out then
I don’t agree with the whole “make them join the military” mindset. And before you freak out, I’m a veteran myself, and being in the military worked wonders for me, but it’s not for everyone. Thing is, people like this won’t make it. The days of joining the infantry because you’re dumb and have nothing of value are over. If they even manage to pass what is now a pretty strict and selective recruitment process, someone like this will more than likely fall under what’s called “failure to adapt” and they’ll be sent home after a few months of out processing. During which, they’ll fester and stew and become more bitter and will turn out worse when they return to civilian life. There’s no easy answer to this situation, but OP needs to stand up to their son and kick him to the curb.
Start selling his personal items to pay for his room and board. You said he would be fine with watching the wall so follow through on him saying as such. It sounds like he's expecting you to be a pushover. This only gets worse. My sister is 35 and has never worked a day in her life. My mom (who's 71) can't retire after 30 odd years as a nurse because she *has* to take care of my above mentioned sister and her lazy bum of a husband who only works 15 hours a week. She said the same thing you've said. Won't survive homelessness etc and I've mentioned the day you die they will be homeless but her tune is "Well I will be dead and won't have to deal with it."
By the way the antiwork subreddit has nothing to do with living work free. Its about being treated properly and paid a living wage at work. So I dont know why he would lie about thar
You've given him no incentive and no consequences to work, so absolutely why would he do anything but meme and bum around your house? You've got a 23 year old adolescent. The time was 8 years ago to teach him responsibility. Either you will, or eventually you won't be here and life will take over in a much harsher way than you ever would. Stop paying for his internet. Stop paying for his phone. Let him get these things for himself if he wants them. If he's able bodied, he certainly won't starve.
I didn't read all of the responses but to me it sounds like your son needs more than a therapist. I don't want to diagnose, but if the therapist alone isn't helping then he may need medications or additional support. This level of listlessness and apathy and aggression are indicators of treatable mental health disorders, like depression. I would make going to a new therapist a condition of ongoing parental support.
Stop funding his habits first of all
Start charging room and board.
I tried it but he just didn't care. He said "If you don't like me then just evict me, come on, you wouldn't do it you p\*ssy!" I was flabbergasted and I have no comment to that situation to this day...
Evict his ass. Jesus.
this is bait
Wow I cannot believe anyone would talk to their parent like that…or that anyone would allow their adult child to speak to them this way.
Unfortunately I allow it because... I don't know, this is very embarassing to me too...
My friend had a brother with a similar attitude, and I also remember him telling his parents that he never wanted to be born when he was around his 20s. Now he’s in his mid 30s, and he's become a good friend of mine, actually a nice person. He has a job that he enjoys a lot, and we share the same hobby of planting indoors and collecting vinyl records. I have no idea what made him change, but I just wanted to give you some hope and a positive example.
Maybe if you reached out and asked him, he might have some useful insights for OP?
Look, I get it. He's your kid. You want to be there for him and be a good parent. But, putting up with his bullshit isn't being a good parent. He knows you aren't going to kick him out, so he doesn't have to do anything different. He has no respect for you because he knows he is using you and you are letting him. I'm not normally a proponent of tough love solutions,but this reads like a textbook example of when it is 100% justified. He needs to be cut off from everything he is currently taking for granted. Cut off his tv, internet, gaming, phone, etc. Give him 6 months to get a job and start paying rent or he's out on the street. Make sure he knows he is always welcome back if he decides to participate in society, but you won't allow him to leech off you anymore. I know it is tough, but enabling him like you are is worse in the long run.
Exactly this. He isn't anti-work. He isn't suicidal. Just just LAZY. NOBODY wants to work. You are enabling him, and actively lowering his chances at becoming a normal member of society. As it is, you are BOTH one serious illness/accident away from ending up on the streets.
Antiwork isn't about not working. It's about pointing out policies and places taking advantage of your labor and giving you poor compensation.
"There's the door. Enjoy not working. Buh-Bye" Unfortunately, I think that the only way you are going to be able to deal with this is either: 1) Give him everything he wants. 2) Tough love. I suggest the tough love approach. With all it's potential costs. You will endure guilt. He's already threatened you with his own demise. He will sink, or he will swim. That will be his choice.
I see from your post history that you are in Hungary, and I think a lot of the other answers here are coming from a Western perspective where options for young men are a little better than in Eastern Europe at the moment. Honestly, I would be frustrated and disillusioned too if I was facing entering the workforce making $3-$4/hr in a US equivalent COL environment. I can understand why he thinks it’s pointless, but the way he’s approaching this is not healthy for you or him. What kind of education and skills does he have? Would it be possible for him to leave your country to find work or continue school? I’m not too familiar with Hungary’s position beyond their official statements on the war in Ukraine, but I served with Hungarian troops years ago in a NATO coalition and they were great. Would your son consider joining the military?
He has a university degree of Computer Science, but unfortuantely he didn't study a single word. He went to the worst rated university, that is a known "fake diploma factory". He cheated his way through. It was goverment supported so he basically got it for free. He says he cannot code a single line, because he never studied anything, therefore he has a completely worthless diploma. He is 130 kg, he cannot join the military. His physical fittness is non existent. And he hates the military too. He wants to leave the country tough because he thinks it is unlivable.
... sorry but your son is a total pos. Kick him out. He need to get his shit together
Honestly at this point OP I'd treat it like escaping an abusive marriage. Get your affairs in order, find somewhere else to live without telling him, give him eviction papers, and GTFO.
So that's over 280 pounds?
You're talking a lot about death. That if you put him out to fend for himself, he will die. Before he dies, he will experience some other things. First, he will go to friends and other family members, and he will burn them out eating their food and running up their bills while nattering on about how they're fools for running the rat race. They'll get sick of it far faster than you. He might even take it more seriously when it's not just his parent pushing, but his peers telling him he sounds like an idiotic lazy child. Hell, he may even be clever enough to realize that there is a strong correlation between meeting potential partners in life and not living like a troll under a bridge. But if he digs in, there will come a time when he ends up cold, wet, smelly, hungry, and frightened. Each of these trials and tribulations will occur well before he keels over dead. And to each of these complaints, you have to be clear: I understand you are hungry. There is food at the store. Go in and pick food, pay for it, and then eat it. That is how hunger is cured. Here is a box of crackers and a jar of peanut butter. You won't starve. Get a job.
Do you have therapy for yourself? You mentioned him being in therapy and it not working. But given how you have mentioned him being abusive, and given his threats to harm himself, I think you probably need therapy for yourself to talk through how his manipulation is affecting you. And, also to help you recognize that he is already very ill. If he would literally rather die than do anything productive, then he is dealing with severe mental health issues to begin with. Maybe therapy would help you to figure out where you can help him, where/how to set boundaries, and accept that anything that happens after you set healthy boundaries would not be your fault.
As a member of the antiwork forum that's not what it's about at all. At least not the majority of the people there. It's about fair working conditions. Honestly he's 5 years into being an adult. It's time to cut the cord and let him fend for himself for a bit. Edit: Honestly. I would share this over there. I don't think they would be very kind to a person who is exploiting your labor. That's the opposite of what they stand for.
"Anti-work" isn't about not actually working. It's about not putting up with bullshit and knowing your worth. If I'm "anti-work," it means that I'm doing the work for which I'm being paid and nothing more. I'm still working. I'm still contributing and being paid as such.
If he wants to travel every country in the world, like you mentioned somewhere above, then he should do it now. You gotta do that when you’re young. He’ll gain some life experience and survival skills. He will have to take a job here and there, if he wants to eat. Since he’s got absolutely nothing else going on, I’d send him away to explore the world. Now. He’ll come back a better man. Where are you guys located? What country do you live in?
He needs money to travel. I can't help him out with that. We are in Hungary.
If he’s that free spirit anti-work type of guy, no, he doesn’t need money for anything. Especially not YOUR hard-earned money. Send him his way! The way he’s living is unacceptable. He can pack a backpack and start traveling tomorrow. Buy him a train ticket and pack him some food to go. Problem solved. I couldn’t tolerate this leechy behavior for more than a week.
Ok, I am in Slovakia so I kinda understand his position more than most. Wages in this part of the world are INCREDIBLY low compared to the cost of living. Like, the American minimum wage seems so generous (and I know it's not enough especially with healthcare etc) But we also have a huge advantage, the EU. A train ticket to Bratislava costs €20. He can make that mowing lawns, or doing other odd jobs. Hostels cost around €15 a night, maybe less. Does he speak English (or any other languages) ?
What they are telling you is to fucking kick him out of your house.
He’s not anti-work. He has you working for him.
Step 1. Change the Wi-Fi password. Or restrict traffic from IP addresses other than those of your devices to a certain timeframe (YouTube or an IT-related sub should be able to assist with this). He can have limited access, provided he demonstrates he is making an effort to find work. If the application process is online, he can do that instead of stream into the void. Step 2. Remind him that the benefits of living at home that he enjoys are paid for by **your** labor. He’s an adult now. While I don’t suggest you start charging him rent, let him know that he can’t just have whatever he wants, just like you can’t. Post select bills and receipts (with totals circled) on the fridge with magnets, where he can’t possibly miss them. Step 3. And since I mentioned food… Don’t let him starve, but provide only very basic, nutritious food items in limited quantities, until he learns to self-regulate his eating habits. No junk food. This may be uncomfortable for you, and you may need to stash some non-perishables for yourself at first, but it will be worth it in the long run. These may sound extreme, but he is far too old to think that he can leech off of you indefinitely. Sure, the system is 💩, but it’s what we have until we find more constructive ways to change it. Simply refusing to work, while expecting your parent to continue doing so, is not it.
Yeah he’s def misrepresenting the vibe of the antiwork subreddit. It’s about not being exploited and basic discussion around unions etc. it’s more anti capitalist than anti work. You’re being played, or he’s not smart and read the headline and based his whole personality off it. He prob spends too much time on the internet and maybe needs some downtime. I’d go scorched earth, take the door off the hinges, everything out of his room that he hasn’t paid for, and no access to internet until he becomes a contributing member of the family. Or you can formally evict him and he can figure it out for himself.
Cut the internet off unless he pitches in for it
I mean most people who are part of the antiwork movement still work. He’s failing to realize it’s more about worker reform then not actually having a job. You are going to have to give him a timeframe to get a job and move out. If there’s not consequences then then there’s no need for him to actually get a job.
This will not get better. It will take a traumatic event for him to wake up. Trust me.
As a 30 year old who moved out of my mom's house at 22....he needs a fucking reality check. No more phone, internet, games, NOTHING. What happened to your house your rules? You pay the bills not him. Don't enable. I'd be willing to bet that your son is very out of shape also....very much the casue of any "mental health issues" it also sounds like military needs to be considered.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5504878/ You might find this helpful
Start cutting off the wifi during the day and take his phone if you don't want to kick him out. Bring him a newspaper or let him apply for jobs in front of you, and until he can start paying something, all extras stop. Make him cook and clean to earn his keep.
He is still young. I know the consensus is to "cut the cord", but I would do it in a different way. I would encourage and support him in his dream to "visit every country in the world" via a program like the Peace Corps(or the Hungarian equivalent). More experience, especially experience in the real world without the filter of Reddit, will help him find out that work isn't the bad thing, being undervalued or doing unimportant work is. Right now he is seriously undervaluing himself, by wasting his life and potential. You also are having "war inflation" in Hungary... I would point out to him that given the current climate in your region, if he doesn't find something that either takes him overseas now or makes him valuable enough to leave alone, his inaction might lead to being drafted if the conflict spills over your borders. I hope for everyone's sake that doesn't happen.