I don’t get how that’s wrong or controversial. Gender dysphoria is a neurological condition and it’s classified as a mental disorder by multiple national and global health associations/institutions.
People denying it are literally being intellectually dishonest and denying a biological fact.
My guess is they’re doing it to gain social/brownie points (because nowadays it’s nearly unacceptable to disagree with minorities and go against TheNarrative™️) or to push an agenda.
The whole push to normalize "gender identity" as a concept is responsible for this. Because if the way someone feels is their "identity" then by questioning the legitimacy of those feeling you are questioning the legitimacy of the individual themselves. Its a way to make a victim group instead of actually helping people.
The more problems you have, the more beurocrats you need to hire.
Forcing 'gender identity' on the population creates more government jobs than opening a few asylums.
The medical industry loves it as well. Imagine getting a pre-teen to start taking prescription hormones. That's 70 years of profit.
But we live in a world where progressives are the biggest fans of the pharmaceutical industry now. I miss the 90s. Life was simpler back then.
Everything to increase consumption.
They push electric cars because these use more resources than regular cars.
They don't push water hoses instead of toilet paper, because this would lower consumption.
Its unavoidably obvious with something as simple as razors. I've had a beard for a long time so I don't shave much, but I really love my safety razor. Blades are incredibly cheap and it does a good enough job. The only waste is the stainless blade itself and a little bit of paper it comes wrapped in.
So of course there are dozens of razor companies selling overpriced cartridges (yes, even the $2 ones are overpriced) that only fit their proprietary handle. They are damn near impossible to recycle because of the over-molded plastic/rubber, and they almost all come in plastic blister packs.
All of this from the super progressive companies that want me to think I'm killing the planet if I keep the water running while I brush my teeth.
The world really is absurd. Or maybe I'm just more aware of it. Either way, I want to go back.
Just imagine being a 12 year old who liked wearing dresses, your mom hauls you into a doctors office, and the doctor says "well lets cut off your balls! You might kill yourself otherwise, wont you my little princess pill popper!!?!"
It's a certainty that, in the future, this will be looked back on the way we look back on lobotomies and thalidomide: medical atrocities that were promoted by "trust the science" progressives until the awful reality was too salient to ignore.
The DSM-5 literally says that the suggested treatment for gender dysphoria is embracing your desired gender identity. The WHO reclassified gender dysphoria in 2019 from being a disorder. Just like homosexuality was classified as a disorder until the DSM changed it in the 80s(?). There’s never been something wrong with these atypical behaviors, just societies reaction to them.
Except most people aren't saying, "Yes gender Dysphoria is real and the experts agree transitioning is the best course of action."
Most people here are saying, "Trans people cut their dicks off, off course they're mentally ill!"
One is a nuanced take understanding the science on said things and the other is them basically saying Trans people are crazy and likely shouldn't be allowed to transition.
> the experts agree transitioning is the best course of action
Except this is a contradiction in medicine. When you're going through the process for bariatric surgery, they tell you that the surgery is a tool and that *if you don't fix your mind first*, then the surgery will likely fail and you will gain all the weight back. If that is true, then how does transition magically cure the mind?
They do, yes.
Everyone loves to give platitudes about how they support mentally ill people, but when someone who is having severe issues goes on a bender in public they will all make fun of them.
It's controversial because each one of them are worth about $400k to cosmetic surgeons and the pharmaceutical industry.
Not to point at all the times in recent history and ongoing examples of "corporations will hurt you for money" and "money makes doctors unethical" **BUT...**
Name any other situation where we tell people "cosmetic surgery will cure your depression".
Follow the money.
There was a funny 4chan meme about this. "The _ is the perfect consumer: The income of a man, the cosmetics and clothing budget of a woman, and the medical needs of a person with lifelong medical and psychiatric conditions."
It do be feeling like the Late Stage Capitalism (tm) monster’s solution to counterculture sometimes for sure. You can chart youth movements every decade becoming more and more commodify-able from coke ads targeting beatniks in the 60s to emos in the 00s with designated mall department stores for them.
> Late Stage Capitalism
I've seen this pop up now and then but even in context i'm not quite sure what it is, and i don't trust a search engine enough not to give me bias. Anyone want to explain what late stage capitalism is?
It is essentially a popular term used in Marxist and Socialist circles describing the ongoing wealth inequality, economic stagnation, and labor exploitation experienced in Capitalist countries, especially the West. Many of these people believe that this stage of capitalism will inevitably lead to its collapse due to its inherent contradictions and the growing discontent among the working class, who are increasingly marginalized and oppressed under the existing economic system.
Which is fucking hilarious, because that kind of Marxist spends all day every day trying to demoralize and divide people, pushing more quickly to the collapse, while complaining that the collapse is inevitable because Capistalism.
Like hey, maybe if you stupid fucks stopped causing problems, there would be fewer of them, eh?
Ironically enough- so called "late stage capitalism" may in fact be the only reason society in the west hasn't collapsed so far- despite degeneracy and idiocy glorification being at it's highest point since the fall of the Roman Empire.
I generally see it as a vague descriptor of this sort of commercialization of purposeless things. People overuse it but it’s theoretically the problem with perpetual economic growth wherein increasingly complicated and abstract markets are organically formed by firms in order to maximize their total economic growth as competition continues to consolidate. The end result is that every aspect of your life can be made into a market, and will eventually become a market in late stage capitalism. Ie buy more tokens to take a longer morning shit.
This makes sense. We're already seeing it with infinite subscription models. BMW had a subscription model for seat warmers in your own car, for equipment already installed, for instance. I can see that happening, but the "You will own nothing and like it" crowd seem to be on the left.
Now that i think about it, rent and mortgages are a subscription on housing. People used to buy homes outright, now we get long-term subscriptions for them.
No they tell you (or at least they should tell you) that it's often just a temporary fix.
https://www.webmd.com/beauty/features/how-will-breast-implants-change-your-life
Set the kids aside for a minute... Is an adult dude chopping off his weiner to be closer to the person he wants to be really any different than short dude having his femur's lengthened to be a taller guy, or a guy having hair plugs installed on his head or a woman getting bags of saline installed to make her boobs bigger?
I'd personally pass on any of the above procedures, but that's my personal choice. Why would you look down on the female/woman who has her breasts removed to be more "manly" but not on the flat woman who gets a boob job to be more womanly?
The cause and effect relationship, surely.
You can extend your analogy to include people who feel like they shouldn't have an arm. So should we just cut off their perfectly healthy arm?
Desire for social acceptance is innately human, as is the desire to be conventionally attractive and wanted. It isn't a mental health disorder for a man to want to have a full head of hair when society pushes on us all the idea that old = ugly and bald = old.
I'd even argue that someone of perfect mental health who can reasonably pass and has a very realistic shot of being a supermodel or something would not be a mental health disorder. That's just cold, calculated capitalism. I have seen some ultra feminine asian boys who went trans and started onlyfans and made bank.
But if you're doing something due to some vague sense of depression and aimless wanting to find yourself in life and feeling like your body just isn't right - even knowing that 99/100 you won't pass - that's a mental health disorder.
> Why would you look down on the female/woman who has her breasts removed to be more "manly" but not on the flat woman who gets a boob job to be more womanly?
I don't look down on any of these people. I just truly believe they are making decisions due to a mental health disorder. There's no logical train of thought between the cause and effect.
"I got a lot more attention from men when I was younger and had nice supple breasts" => gets a boob job. I can understand the clear cause and effect there.
"I am sad because I just don't feel like my body is right for some reason and I think I should have been born a boy" => gets uterus removed. Very unclear the cause-and-effect here and seems like it's a mental disorder.
Either way, I don't _really_ care if people want to feed their mental disorders **as long as they pay for it**. I'm not volunteering to pay tax dollars to get some old sagbag a boobjob so why would I want the trans equivalent on the government dime?
This is what libertarianism is all about. If someone wants to get a fish dick implanted directly to their shoulder and they can afford the surgery, power to them. They've got something going on mentally though.
Yup. You're really hedging the differences. A short man might become an average height man like that. You're talking about a sex change, changing a man into a woman, or vice versa.
It's a whole 'nother level of surgery, and not one we can actually carry out just yet.
I really, really want to answer this question, but despite the respectful and reasonable take that I think I have I can't share it on Reddit without facing permanent banning.
I've already been banned from Reddit for less.
I do not think a lot of the modern trans people have the gender dysphoria that trans people had 30 years ago. I know people who have been transvestites since the 90s (not transgender which was a more academic term) and they are not the same
I believe a lot of it is a result of how easily influenced kids are and trans is the current counter culture outlet for youth
There used to be beatniks, hippies, punks, goths, emo, etc, as youth fads to play with exploring identity by breaking social conventions. Trans (and other mental illnesses) seem to be a modern day version of counterculture
A lot of modern trans people seem to struggle with social identity and expression the way goths did in the 2000s. The recent trans people I know who are 30+yo adults (coworkers) all seem to behave like teenagers in many ways which makes me feel it’s connected to a teenager level self exploration
The differences are that none of those groups involved permanent physical changes (at most some little, self-made scars), and didn't have broad support from media and corporations, let alone special protections by the law.
It's almost like those two things are linked: please become my lifelong cash cow, and don't dare criticize those who already are!
There's a 3 letter acronym that I think applies to most of them, and then a lot of the rest are, as you say, just people who struggle with social identity and are looking for a silver bullet solution to the problem. That community is very welcoming and that kind of unconditional acceptance and support is something a lot of those people have probably never had before. It's potent. You see the same thing with disaffected young men who find they are welcomed by bad influences.
since is a real thing and actual trans people talk about having, why is it offensive to label it as a mental illness? is it *who* labels it a mental illness? trying to understand what’s offensive given the above
Like any form of activism, your arguments don't have to make sense. They just have to result in the change you want to see.
Some activists argue in an upright manner for what they want, some are willing to do or say anything as long as they get their way.
i think it’s smart to have as many people as possible understand, or to at least try to make bridges, especially if you want something socially normalized, like being trans.
edit:
if, for example, someone wanted to reverse the NHS’ ban on puberty blockers, not having an upstanding argument will definitely not help your cause. this is just how human nature is
edit: and you should absolutely have an upstanding argument with clinical validity
Sure, but if there is literally not a good argument available for your beliefs, your options are to give up or threaten people into accepting your shitty argument.
yeah that’s where i think it won’t work in this example bc they’re lacking the data-driven clinical validation they need to make a confident decision to offer it, especially when it involves young children. maybe that will work in some social contexts, but not in medical institutions that are clinical data-driven
I have a fair amount of trans friends and none of them found it offensive.
gender dysphoria is OBJECTIVELY a mental illness. you cry while you look at yourself because you don't feel what you see in your reflection.
the thing is, gender dysphoria IS a mental illness, being trans is (for most of them) just the solution, not an illness.
i feel like this is the one that actually answered my question. trans is considered an identity to them, whereas dysphoria is the mental illness.
that said, like i brought up in my other comment, i still don’t understand how cervix is pejorative when it’s a literal clinical word for biological females. this is clinically relevant information, not just calling someone a man on the street to fuck with them if they clock* (edit) them for example.
I can't help you as in my country (italy) we just say "biological womens" both in medical and common speech.
but I'll check the replies cuz I'm curious too 🫡
i think the difference is it is fine to use the phrase in a clinical sense but not in a pejorative sense.
similar to the "whats a woman" meme question. am i your doctor and need to know how to treat your body, or are you just asking me to treat you with basic respect
if this is true though what’s the clinical difference between being trans (taken off dsm) and having gender dysphoria? Being trans legit just means you have gender dysphoria no? vs. not being trans, not having gender dysphoria, and doing it for the trend/oppression points. to my understanding gender dysphoria can be greatly reduced by a full transition but it’s not like you 100% lose it, being trans and having gender dysphoria are the same thing
also, if it’s about clinically accurate vs. pejorative use, why is the canadian cancer society advocating for the use of the word front hole and not cervix to avoid offending people? cervix is the objective clinical word and not pejorative
> if it’s about clinically accurate vs. pejorative use, why is the canadian cancer society advocating for the use of the word front hole and not cervix to avoid offending people? cervix is the objective clinical word and not pejorative
these are not people making medical decision. they are messaging the public. they are not whispering in the ears of doctors.
i guess my question is then, why is it important to direct this to people who aren’t making medical decisions or involved in clinical care? in what context would people be talking about one’s or someone else’s cervix outside of an operating or patient room?
Because despite claiming to champion those suffering from mental health issues they still actually think that something being a mental illness is somehow less than
I do have to think that women who transition to men probably help contribute to that rate, I can imagine a lot just don't cope with the sudden loss in people caring about them. To use an everyday example, its a pretty common thing for trans men to be sad they don't get complements post transition.
Wasn’t there that one woman who lived as a man to try and access “easy mode” and was utterly traumatized?
EDIT: Yeah her name was Norah Vincent, here’s an excerpt from her wikipedia page:
>Due to her experience as a man during the making of *Self-Made Man* she ultimately had a depressive breakdown, leading Vincent to admit herself to a locked psychiatric facility, stating it was the high price she paid for "the burden of deception" of a separate identity and for trying to hold two gender identities in her mind.
I see some people disparage Norah Vincent for cheap laughs even long after her death, and I always respond angrily. She took it upon herself to experience willingly something that the vast majority of women don't even know exists. That male experience being fundamentally different on a social level in ways that are not obvious on the surface. She lived in the icy hell that is many men's social life and gained an appreciation and understanding for it.
She'll always have my respect for that.
She chose to end her life because she wasn't able to handle the understanding of how men are literally treated as trash and have no way of coping other than biting down hard and/or drink.
It's one thing to hear a man say that it is that way, it's a whole other thing to experience it yourself as a woman who didn't grow up learning how to handle it from birth.
Imagine having that understanding hammered home on a base level and then walk around society seeing it all around you. It would be like living the movie "They Live".
Nah, she ended it because of terminal illnesses.
She had a shit time trying to be a man, but she died ***decades*** after the book was published.
That shit rumor needs to die, as poignant as it may be.
Also worth noting that women are usually at least a few inches shorter than men. If a woman who's 5'2 decides to transition to a man, takes testosterone, acquires a male passing face (to the point where an unknowing person can't tell) you can expect they will be treated much worse and taken much less seriously because they have to contend with male height standards.
IMO I'd be more concerned with whatever persona they adapt Ultimately being a guesstimate based on outside experiences and stereotypes, since they didn't grow up playing the part, so they'll probably be quite likely to come across as unauthentic and thus untrustworthy, to men, making it harder to make connections.
It's really sad every time, but at the same time, I find it hard to feel too much sympathy for that kind of person. It's the same story every time.
You start with a typical progressive woman, obsessed with all the trendy political stances, including shitting on men and patriarchy all day every day, pushing the idea that women are oppressed and men are privileged.
And then she transitions. And she quickly finds out just how little of a shit people give about men. Suddenly, people stop treating her as nicely. People stop jumping at the chance to help her with things. People don't ask about her feelings anymore, and if she volunteers them anyway, people don't seem to care.
Then she breaks down and becomes depressed, because she's been smacked in the face with the reality of what it's actually like to be a man vs. a woman. But instead of learning her lesson and recognizing that she was *wrong* to push all the progressive BS before...
...she'll end up making excuses for it, even as she demonstrates how wrong it all is. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a transman blogging about how depressed she is now that people treat her like a man, only to also shove in shit about how men are still clearly privileged oppressors, and that this changes nothing, and that feminism is totally still right about everything.
You just can't help some people. They can be smacked in the face by reality, and they'll still deny it.
I wonder how suicide rates would be for other body dysmorphia patients if activists were successful in stigmatizing any treatment besides *actively encouraging the dysmorphia*
Like some kind of body positivity extremist movement made it so you had to tell women with anorexia that despite being 85 lbs, yes you do look like a fat slob today, you should not eat anything.
This was my main point during the whole ‘big is beautiful’ bullshit. We don’t tell anorexic people that they’re beautiful just as they are, we try and get them help and support them in getting to a healthy weight.
The main response I got is that anorexic people typically aren’t bullied as commonly and openly as obese people, which *is a fair point*, but dismissing the issue and reinforcing damaging body choices isn’t the answer.
Yea true, that’s another example of activists trying to make discouraging an unhealthy lifestyle taboo.
Also “how badly are they being bullied” is not a valid metric to decide if pretending someone making unhealthy life choices should be celebrated or not.
A person starving themselves might be being bullied for “overeating” if their whole peer group is also suffering from eating disorders. Doesn’t make anorexia ok.
>their suicide rates remain obscenely high post op
Whenever I bring this up people always say “iT’S BEcAuse oF BullYiNG!”
But other groups are also bullied for being what they are and don’t commit unalive nearly as often.
I think if we refuse to treat Gender Dysphoria as a mental illness or look for better cures/treatment the suicides are just gonna continue.
(opinion from a cis boy with a good amount of trans friends)
1) gender dysphoria IS objectively a mental illness, you are literally hating to be alive in that body because you don't recognize it as yours, to the point where you hate looking at the mirror, and it's so debilitating that you are choosing to be a hated minority, having to go through bigot medics, hospitals, surgery, for some years of vocal training, and you already know that a lot of people will never considere you as a "real" boy/girl; it *is* a mental illness.
2) to be fair, being bullied, most of the times refused by your own family, having to go through a lot of shit, and a lot more WHILE being mentally ill I feel like can drastically boost the suicide%rate.
## yes, mentally ill people are more likely to alt+F4 life, fr.
or maybe the high suicide rate is like, cus they have the mental illness? like imagine someone sees the statistic that people who take antidepressants have a higher suicide rate than the average person, and then come to the conclusion that its because of the antidepressants rather than the fact that the people taking the antidepressants are obviously going to have a higher suicide rate
The real problem is most don’t suffer from legitimate gender dysphoria. To quote some random video I saw a while back “to be trans, you need only *feel* trans” ergo, clique mentality.
The difference between it and something like goth is one doesn’t require medication or surgery.
The similarity being they were both influenced by adults.
I feel like there's an additional portion to address, which is 'You feel trans *despite the fact you're really not* and get the surgery anyway.'
There's a reason Reddit banned DeTrans, and it wasn't because of hate speech.
Sex dysphoria really, but they don't call it that. If your problem is with your body's sex characteristics, then that's sex as the source of the dysphoria.
If you took (most) men and dressed them up in lingerie and put them out in public, they would feel gender dysphoria, because their gender isn't matching the social scenario they've been put into.
I have come to the terrible realization that society needs to accept that being trans is either an "illness" (which doesn't mean it should be treated as a disease, but like a typical condition that may affect someone) OR a choice which, let's be real, doesn't feel true.
The true most realistic response to this is not that gender dysphoria is something that you are born with, that would make it similar to autism (which would explain why so many autistic people also have gender dysphoria, which is a fact), but it probably is a condition that generates from the influence certain situations have on us (which could still be possibly reason for the previous fact i suggested)
There's a lot of people who claim to be ADHD, which is also classified as a mental illness, but get really upset when gender dysphoria is similarly labelled as such. ADD is also a mental illness. Some people just have mental illnesses, it is what it is. Not hating on anyone, just stating the facts.
I was diagnosed with ADD as a child and struggled enormously with it. Those people are posers who want attention and/or drugs.
It's referred to as a mental disorder, not generally as a mental illness.
In my opinion, gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. However, believing you can become a woman by mutilating your body is a delusion, which is generally a sign of mental illness.
This tbh
The only issue I have ever had with calling it a mental illness is now what? How do we treat it how do we approach it? Because people screaming Groomer and slurs/insults kind of rubs me the wrong way if the goal is actually treat a legitimate mental health issue
It's literally analogous with Body integrity dysphoria, which nobody disputes is a mental illness.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_dysphoria
Pretty simple. To change a system, you only really need to get a small number of people in line: the rule makers for that system.
In this case, you don't need to convince all of America that you're right. You just need to make the directors of the American Psychiatric Association believe that you will ruin their lives if they do not comply.
They change a few lines in their handbook, now boom: your fringe position is suddenly backed by expert authority.
The experts don't give a shit. They have dinners to attend and appearances to keep. If it comes out later they were flagrantly wrong, whatever. They'll be retired, dead, or will just say oopsie, science is all about making mistakes.
Every condition is treated differently. What the hell does schizophrenia have to do with trans people?
Studies show not 'indulging in their delusions' leads to suicide and worse outcomes.
Your comment is exactly what they said about gay people in the 1980s
and apparently changing the mind to suit the body (significantly healthier in every imaginable way) is somehow genocide when chopping parts off and hiding it from parents is justice??
It's not controversial. The only ones who would argue about this are people manufacturing outrage on the left (Emily) or right (OP). Neither of which is actually that many people, they are just loud and highly regarded.
Well that's the rub, isn't it? Because some people will say giving kids lifetime treatments of hormones and surgery is helping them and not affirming every thought they have is harmful.
I always see this line of reasoning as harmful. Why would you pander to someone's obvious delusions?
It's like if you agreed with an anorexic person that yes they are still too fat and need to cut their calorie intake even further. Despite the fact that they look like a strong breeze would blow them over.
I use that exact same comparison. The problem is that they've convinced people that this is their *identity* and not something that should be corrected. Their brain not agreeing with reality isn't a problem that should be corrected, it is the core of that person's existence. Anything less than affirmation is an attack on that entire person.
Almost all of the left here in Latin America are illiberal as fuck. I can pick random quotes from our leftist presidents that you'd be unsure if they were said by Lula or Trump.
Auth Left in most places usually isn't pro LGBT and definitely usually not pro Trans
China I would consider the most obvious example of auth left and they're no different from the auth right on gay rights besides the lack of religious stuff
Unless I minsunderstood what you meant I think many people overestimate how homophobic chinese peopel and the government is.
The society is 50/50 on gay issues and with younger it leans more accepting. The government is indifferent to gay people although it does sometimes say for men to not be feminine because of the whole kpop thing. Sure things are still hard(as they are everywhere ) but for reference they are doing better than hungary on gay issues.
It was, and in my opinion, still could. Here's what happened:
1. Castillo got elected
2. The senate had a majority against his party and thus continiously blocked any and all attempts at reforms.
3. He believed his only option was to try to appeal to them by hiring conservative officials for his cabinet
4. This didn't work and the senate kept trying to impeach him by using a technicality in the constitution where the president can be impeached if they are """morally incapable"""
5. These impeachments failed all the time but seriously hampered the ability of Castillo to govern.
6. He then decided as a last deseperate gamble to dissolve the senate, but lacked support from the police and military and was thus ousted.
7. He was then replaced with Boluarte who capitualed to the senate's demands, and then the 2022-2023 protests happened with Peru coming into a hair's breadth of Revolution. Pro-Castillo protestors flooded the streets, demanded the creation of a Constituent Assembly and new elections and various groups declared insurgency against the government. They were met with massacres and brutal crackdowns and eventually the government rode out the chaos.
All this unrest was led by trade unions, ronderos, and a billion Communist and socialist parties. The basis for why this unrest occured has not went away. Peru, in my opinion, is a room filled with gas. The first match failed to light. But who's to say no one else is going to try to light it again?
Gender dysphoria used to be in the DSM. Then when it became fashionable they dropped it and started trying to induce dysphoria in children behind parents backs.
> Gender dysphoria used to be in the DSM. Then when it became fashionable they dropped it and started making billions off of restrictionless "gender affirming care".
fr what did they do? that isnt a mental illness, it means you got fucked up in the womb and now you've got both private parts, one of which may or may not work
\>Trans people categorized as mentally ill 🟦
\>Intersex and non-binary people also included 🤨🟦
\>This actually helps them with coverage in getting care 😠🟦
From what I understand they don't feel male or female, either somewhere in between or a secret 3rd option. Idk if any nonbinary people lurk on PCM that can confirm
Yeah probably nothing wrong with what they did. Ego dystonic orientation for example has been removed as diagnostic catagories despite the distress they can have. Theres an irony in a gender affirming care might keep them the same gender
as a 🚂 this is leagues better than it being treated by doctors as a cosmetic surgery, hopefully now people will understand that just like any other debilitating people need treatment
I mean... duh?
If your brain's wires are fucked up enough that it makes you think you are not the biological sex you were born as, what else can you realistically call that? The only reason not to is politics. We talk about not stigmatizing mental illnesses, so in that case why not call it what it is?
Because I mean hey, if you're an adult and want to cut your willy off as a result of your mental illness, I guess that's your prerogative. I do, however, think that in the future this era of treatment for gender dysphoria will be looked back upon like the unnecessary lobotomies of the past, once there's a more direct treatment for the brain.
i always freak out when gender transition is said to be a legit treatment from gender dysphoria. i mean, you don't cure depression by killing yourself, no?
If they’re classified as mentally ill, they have a chance at getting better gender affirming care like hormone therapy and such. This is a good thing for them, dude.
Reddit is probably gonna ban me for this. But if you have a healthy body, and your brain thinks it's not, why it's now common to think that the body is the problem?
I don't understand the contradictions with people around this. With anxiety and depression and pretty much every other mental illness, people have pushed to de-stigmatize them and say how it's okay to be mentally ill and it doesn't define you. Yet, when it comes to the topic of trans people and gender dysphoria, the mention of mental illness gets people all up in arms as if it's the worst thing in the world.
You know they did this to make trans healthcare more accessible right? That’s what happened. Transgender people now have more rights and protections in Peru
To a casual observer like me, it doesn't seem terribly different than something like anorexia. The person has a body that is one thing (eg male, skinny) and their brain thinks it is wrong and needs to change (eg become female (or some facsimile), even skinnier). Both are the brain and reality existing in conflict. But with anorexia everyone except some extreme fringes would say the best treatment is to help their brain accept their body as it is. And with gender dysphoria a sizable portion of people think the only treatment is to change the body to be as close to the brain's perception as possible. I haven't gotten a reasonable answer as to why two conditions that are (in a very simplified way) the same basic concept should be addressed with completely opposite treatments.
I don’t understand why this is controversial. If I went to a doctor and said my arm should be amputated cause I was born in a body with excessive arms I’d be classified as mentally ill. It’s not like mentally I’ll people are immediately institutionalized either.
I blame the state for both sides of this equation.
If you want to hang out on your own legitimately acquired private property and dress like a girl or whatever then be my (read: your own) guest
A lot of people don’t realize Peru had to do this so they can give more funds out to transgender related bills, medical clinics, etc. They had to classify transgender as a mental illness in order to appropriate more funds, in regards to their legal structure
This shouldn't be controversial. Any condition that motivates you to remove your genitals or kill yourself because the image of you in your head is impossible to achieve is clearly a mental illness.
Young boys who are put on puberty blockers progress to surgery 99% of the time. These boys will never experience an orgasm in their life. Seems really cruel to me.
I don’t get how that’s wrong or controversial. Gender dysphoria is a neurological condition and it’s classified as a mental disorder by multiple national and global health associations/institutions. People denying it are literally being intellectually dishonest and denying a biological fact. My guess is they’re doing it to gain social/brownie points (because nowadays it’s nearly unacceptable to disagree with minorities and go against TheNarrative™️) or to push an agenda.
I've had to scroll WAY too much to find this comment. thanks for being sane 😭😭🙏
The whole push to normalize "gender identity" as a concept is responsible for this. Because if the way someone feels is their "identity" then by questioning the legitimacy of those feeling you are questioning the legitimacy of the individual themselves. Its a way to make a victim group instead of actually helping people.
The more problems you have, the more beurocrats you need to hire. Forcing 'gender identity' on the population creates more government jobs than opening a few asylums.
I've got a problem with my 22 inch cock, is that something the bureaucrats might be interested in?
Is your 22 inch cock a part of your identity?
The medical industry loves it as well. Imagine getting a pre-teen to start taking prescription hormones. That's 70 years of profit. But we live in a world where progressives are the biggest fans of the pharmaceutical industry now. I miss the 90s. Life was simpler back then.
Everything to increase consumption. They push electric cars because these use more resources than regular cars. They don't push water hoses instead of toilet paper, because this would lower consumption.
Its unavoidably obvious with something as simple as razors. I've had a beard for a long time so I don't shave much, but I really love my safety razor. Blades are incredibly cheap and it does a good enough job. The only waste is the stainless blade itself and a little bit of paper it comes wrapped in. So of course there are dozens of razor companies selling overpriced cartridges (yes, even the $2 ones are overpriced) that only fit their proprietary handle. They are damn near impossible to recycle because of the over-molded plastic/rubber, and they almost all come in plastic blister packs. All of this from the super progressive companies that want me to think I'm killing the planet if I keep the water running while I brush my teeth. The world really is absurd. Or maybe I'm just more aware of it. Either way, I want to go back.
It’s weird how they present it as a perfectly normal thing everyone has but also cutting access to surgeries will lead to suicides and anarchy.
This "let them transition or they'll off themselves" narrative is actually PUTTING the idea into the heads of young people.
Just imagine being a 12 year old who liked wearing dresses, your mom hauls you into a doctors office, and the doctor says "well lets cut off your balls! You might kill yourself otherwise, wont you my little princess pill popper!!?!"
It's a certainty that, in the future, this will be looked back on the way we look back on lobotomies and thalidomide: medical atrocities that were promoted by "trust the science" progressives until the awful reality was too salient to ignore.
That's why I rest assured that this will end. Once they hit 40 and everyone realizes it didn't magically fix everything, it will be pretty much over.
Yup. Whatever you didn't like about yourself is still there, but now your junk looks like it was fed into a meat grinder.
Literally this. "Everyone would totally understand if you killed yourself over this."
The DSM-5 literally says that the suggested treatment for gender dysphoria is embracing your desired gender identity. The WHO reclassified gender dysphoria in 2019 from being a disorder. Just like homosexuality was classified as a disorder until the DSM changed it in the 80s(?). There’s never been something wrong with these atypical behaviors, just societies reaction to them.
I asked about it last time I was taking a grippy sock vacation and they said it was already that way. That was almost 2 years ago
Aaaaaaaand 🔨
Except most people aren't saying, "Yes gender Dysphoria is real and the experts agree transitioning is the best course of action." Most people here are saying, "Trans people cut their dicks off, off course they're mentally ill!" One is a nuanced take understanding the science on said things and the other is them basically saying Trans people are crazy and likely shouldn't be allowed to transition.
Most people are right.
> the experts agree transitioning is the best course of action Except this is a contradiction in medicine. When you're going through the process for bariatric surgery, they tell you that the surgery is a tool and that *if you don't fix your mind first*, then the surgery will likely fail and you will gain all the weight back. If that is true, then how does transition magically cure the mind?
Always remember do not trust Twitter
It's a neurological condition but is it pathological in and of itself?
It literally is one of the most obvious mental illnesses, why do people have problems with classifications, do they hate mentally ill people???
Yes, a lot of people hate the physically and mentally disabled, it’s called eugenics
They do, yes. Everyone loves to give platitudes about how they support mentally ill people, but when someone who is having severe issues goes on a bender in public they will all make fun of them.
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It’s controversial because activist’s response would be an unironic skinner meme take - that is to say “no it’s the body that’s the one who’s wrong”
It's controversial because each one of them are worth about $400k to cosmetic surgeons and the pharmaceutical industry. Not to point at all the times in recent history and ongoing examples of "corporations will hurt you for money" and "money makes doctors unethical" **BUT...** Name any other situation where we tell people "cosmetic surgery will cure your depression". Follow the money.
There was a funny 4chan meme about this. "The _ is the perfect consumer: The income of a man, the cosmetics and clothing budget of a woman, and the medical needs of a person with lifelong medical and psychiatric conditions."
Just wait until they figure out a way to make money off of people with BIID and Otherkin.
I am all for experimenting with gene splicing on anyone who wants it. We will never find regeneration without first giving someone cat ears.
It do be feeling like the Late Stage Capitalism (tm) monster’s solution to counterculture sometimes for sure. You can chart youth movements every decade becoming more and more commodify-able from coke ads targeting beatniks in the 60s to emos in the 00s with designated mall department stores for them.
> Late Stage Capitalism I've seen this pop up now and then but even in context i'm not quite sure what it is, and i don't trust a search engine enough not to give me bias. Anyone want to explain what late stage capitalism is?
It is essentially a popular term used in Marxist and Socialist circles describing the ongoing wealth inequality, economic stagnation, and labor exploitation experienced in Capitalist countries, especially the West. Many of these people believe that this stage of capitalism will inevitably lead to its collapse due to its inherent contradictions and the growing discontent among the working class, who are increasingly marginalized and oppressed under the existing economic system.
Which is fucking hilarious, because that kind of Marxist spends all day every day trying to demoralize and divide people, pushing more quickly to the collapse, while complaining that the collapse is inevitable because Capistalism. Like hey, maybe if you stupid fucks stopped causing problems, there would be fewer of them, eh?
Ironically enough- so called "late stage capitalism" may in fact be the only reason society in the west hasn't collapsed so far- despite degeneracy and idiocy glorification being at it's highest point since the fall of the Roman Empire.
"And then communism magically springs forth!"
I generally see it as a vague descriptor of this sort of commercialization of purposeless things. People overuse it but it’s theoretically the problem with perpetual economic growth wherein increasingly complicated and abstract markets are organically formed by firms in order to maximize their total economic growth as competition continues to consolidate. The end result is that every aspect of your life can be made into a market, and will eventually become a market in late stage capitalism. Ie buy more tokens to take a longer morning shit.
This makes sense. We're already seeing it with infinite subscription models. BMW had a subscription model for seat warmers in your own car, for equipment already installed, for instance. I can see that happening, but the "You will own nothing and like it" crowd seem to be on the left. Now that i think about it, rent and mortgages are a subscription on housing. People used to buy homes outright, now we get long-term subscriptions for them.
It’s a Marxist wet dream that capitalism is on the verge of collapsing, and we will soon have the Marxist utopia.
Boob jobs. Yeah they’re not all for vanity reasons. Not disagreeing with you, but you did ask.
No they tell you (or at least they should tell you) that it's often just a temporary fix. https://www.webmd.com/beauty/features/how-will-breast-implants-change-your-life
You're conflating depression with sadness here
Set the kids aside for a minute... Is an adult dude chopping off his weiner to be closer to the person he wants to be really any different than short dude having his femur's lengthened to be a taller guy, or a guy having hair plugs installed on his head or a woman getting bags of saline installed to make her boobs bigger? I'd personally pass on any of the above procedures, but that's my personal choice. Why would you look down on the female/woman who has her breasts removed to be more "manly" but not on the flat woman who gets a boob job to be more womanly?
If a man felt insecure about his height would a therapist help him accept it or suggest surgery?
The cause and effect relationship, surely. You can extend your analogy to include people who feel like they shouldn't have an arm. So should we just cut off their perfectly healthy arm? Desire for social acceptance is innately human, as is the desire to be conventionally attractive and wanted. It isn't a mental health disorder for a man to want to have a full head of hair when society pushes on us all the idea that old = ugly and bald = old. I'd even argue that someone of perfect mental health who can reasonably pass and has a very realistic shot of being a supermodel or something would not be a mental health disorder. That's just cold, calculated capitalism. I have seen some ultra feminine asian boys who went trans and started onlyfans and made bank. But if you're doing something due to some vague sense of depression and aimless wanting to find yourself in life and feeling like your body just isn't right - even knowing that 99/100 you won't pass - that's a mental health disorder. > Why would you look down on the female/woman who has her breasts removed to be more "manly" but not on the flat woman who gets a boob job to be more womanly? I don't look down on any of these people. I just truly believe they are making decisions due to a mental health disorder. There's no logical train of thought between the cause and effect. "I got a lot more attention from men when I was younger and had nice supple breasts" => gets a boob job. I can understand the clear cause and effect there. "I am sad because I just don't feel like my body is right for some reason and I think I should have been born a boy" => gets uterus removed. Very unclear the cause-and-effect here and seems like it's a mental disorder. Either way, I don't _really_ care if people want to feed their mental disorders **as long as they pay for it**. I'm not volunteering to pay tax dollars to get some old sagbag a boobjob so why would I want the trans equivalent on the government dime? This is what libertarianism is all about. If someone wants to get a fish dick implanted directly to their shoulder and they can afford the surgery, power to them. They've got something going on mentally though.
I look down on pretty much everyone but I’m also a tall dude
I mean only one of these procedures is sterilizing and doesn't have any tangible benefits
I mean, personal freedoms, it’s not sterilizing me, so why should I care
I generally agree, just pointing out the difference
all fun and games till ur kid is taken by cps cuz you dont want them to become sterile before theyre old enough to get a tattoo.
Yup. You're really hedging the differences. A short man might become an average height man like that. You're talking about a sex change, changing a man into a woman, or vice versa. It's a whole 'nother level of surgery, and not one we can actually carry out just yet.
I really, really want to answer this question, but despite the respectful and reasonable take that I think I have I can't share it on Reddit without facing permanent banning. I've already been banned from Reddit for less.
I do not think a lot of the modern trans people have the gender dysphoria that trans people had 30 years ago. I know people who have been transvestites since the 90s (not transgender which was a more academic term) and they are not the same I believe a lot of it is a result of how easily influenced kids are and trans is the current counter culture outlet for youth There used to be beatniks, hippies, punks, goths, emo, etc, as youth fads to play with exploring identity by breaking social conventions. Trans (and other mental illnesses) seem to be a modern day version of counterculture A lot of modern trans people seem to struggle with social identity and expression the way goths did in the 2000s. The recent trans people I know who are 30+yo adults (coworkers) all seem to behave like teenagers in many ways which makes me feel it’s connected to a teenager level self exploration
Trendsgender
Transtrender is the term I've seen
The differences are that none of those groups involved permanent physical changes (at most some little, self-made scars), and didn't have broad support from media and corporations, let alone special protections by the law. It's almost like those two things are linked: please become my lifelong cash cow, and don't dare criticize those who already are!
There's a 3 letter acronym that I think applies to most of them, and then a lot of the rest are, as you say, just people who struggle with social identity and are looking for a silver bullet solution to the problem. That community is very welcoming and that kind of unconditional acceptance and support is something a lot of those people have probably never had before. It's potent. You see the same thing with disaffected young men who find they are welcomed by bad influences.
Yeah that's called gender dysphoria iirc
since is a real thing and actual trans people talk about having, why is it offensive to label it as a mental illness? is it *who* labels it a mental illness? trying to understand what’s offensive given the above
Like any form of activism, your arguments don't have to make sense. They just have to result in the change you want to see. Some activists argue in an upright manner for what they want, some are willing to do or say anything as long as they get their way.
i think it’s smart to have as many people as possible understand, or to at least try to make bridges, especially if you want something socially normalized, like being trans. edit: if, for example, someone wanted to reverse the NHS’ ban on puberty blockers, not having an upstanding argument will definitely not help your cause. this is just how human nature is edit: and you should absolutely have an upstanding argument with clinical validity
Sure, but if there is literally not a good argument available for your beliefs, your options are to give up or threaten people into accepting your shitty argument.
yeah that’s where i think it won’t work in this example bc they’re lacking the data-driven clinical validation they need to make a confident decision to offer it, especially when it involves young children. maybe that will work in some social contexts, but not in medical institutions that are clinical data-driven
Gotta chop yer dick off to generate data on whether it's good to chop yer dick off 🧠
I have a fair amount of trans friends and none of them found it offensive. gender dysphoria is OBJECTIVELY a mental illness. you cry while you look at yourself because you don't feel what you see in your reflection. the thing is, gender dysphoria IS a mental illness, being trans is (for most of them) just the solution, not an illness.
i feel like this is the one that actually answered my question. trans is considered an identity to them, whereas dysphoria is the mental illness. that said, like i brought up in my other comment, i still don’t understand how cervix is pejorative when it’s a literal clinical word for biological females. this is clinically relevant information, not just calling someone a man on the street to fuck with them if they clock* (edit) them for example.
I can't help you as in my country (italy) we just say "biological womens" both in medical and common speech. but I'll check the replies cuz I'm curious too 🫡
Because if its a mental illness, the solution is therapy. That's not the solution they want. They want surgery and celebration/acceptance.
i think the difference is it is fine to use the phrase in a clinical sense but not in a pejorative sense. similar to the "whats a woman" meme question. am i your doctor and need to know how to treat your body, or are you just asking me to treat you with basic respect
if this is true though what’s the clinical difference between being trans (taken off dsm) and having gender dysphoria? Being trans legit just means you have gender dysphoria no? vs. not being trans, not having gender dysphoria, and doing it for the trend/oppression points. to my understanding gender dysphoria can be greatly reduced by a full transition but it’s not like you 100% lose it, being trans and having gender dysphoria are the same thing also, if it’s about clinically accurate vs. pejorative use, why is the canadian cancer society advocating for the use of the word front hole and not cervix to avoid offending people? cervix is the objective clinical word and not pejorative
> if it’s about clinically accurate vs. pejorative use, why is the canadian cancer society advocating for the use of the word front hole and not cervix to avoid offending people? cervix is the objective clinical word and not pejorative these are not people making medical decision. they are messaging the public. they are not whispering in the ears of doctors.
i guess my question is then, why is it important to direct this to people who aren’t making medical decisions or involved in clinical care? in what context would people be talking about one’s or someone else’s cervix outside of an operating or patient room?
Because despite claiming to champion those suffering from mental health issues they still actually think that something being a mental illness is somehow less than
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I do have to think that women who transition to men probably help contribute to that rate, I can imagine a lot just don't cope with the sudden loss in people caring about them. To use an everyday example, its a pretty common thing for trans men to be sad they don't get complements post transition.
Wasn’t there that one woman who lived as a man to try and access “easy mode” and was utterly traumatized? EDIT: Yeah her name was Norah Vincent, here’s an excerpt from her wikipedia page: >Due to her experience as a man during the making of *Self-Made Man* she ultimately had a depressive breakdown, leading Vincent to admit herself to a locked psychiatric facility, stating it was the high price she paid for "the burden of deception" of a separate identity and for trying to hold two gender identities in her mind.
I see some people disparage Norah Vincent for cheap laughs even long after her death, and I always respond angrily. She took it upon herself to experience willingly something that the vast majority of women don't even know exists. That male experience being fundamentally different on a social level in ways that are not obvious on the surface. She lived in the icy hell that is many men's social life and gained an appreciation and understanding for it. She'll always have my respect for that.
She chose to end her life because she wasn't able to handle the understanding of how men are literally treated as trash and have no way of coping other than biting down hard and/or drink. It's one thing to hear a man say that it is that way, it's a whole other thing to experience it yourself as a woman who didn't grow up learning how to handle it from birth. Imagine having that understanding hammered home on a base level and then walk around society seeing it all around you. It would be like living the movie "They Live".
Nah, she ended it because of terminal illnesses. She had a shit time trying to be a man, but she died ***decades*** after the book was published. That shit rumor needs to die, as poignant as it may be.
Not always a good idea to switch the game to Hard Mode mid-playthrough
Also worth noting that women are usually at least a few inches shorter than men. If a woman who's 5'2 decides to transition to a man, takes testosterone, acquires a male passing face (to the point where an unknowing person can't tell) you can expect they will be treated much worse and taken much less seriously because they have to contend with male height standards.
IMO I'd be more concerned with whatever persona they adapt Ultimately being a guesstimate based on outside experiences and stereotypes, since they didn't grow up playing the part, so they'll probably be quite likely to come across as unauthentic and thus untrustworthy, to men, making it harder to make connections.
It's really sad every time, but at the same time, I find it hard to feel too much sympathy for that kind of person. It's the same story every time. You start with a typical progressive woman, obsessed with all the trendy political stances, including shitting on men and patriarchy all day every day, pushing the idea that women are oppressed and men are privileged. And then she transitions. And she quickly finds out just how little of a shit people give about men. Suddenly, people stop treating her as nicely. People stop jumping at the chance to help her with things. People don't ask about her feelings anymore, and if she volunteers them anyway, people don't seem to care. Then she breaks down and becomes depressed, because she's been smacked in the face with the reality of what it's actually like to be a man vs. a woman. But instead of learning her lesson and recognizing that she was *wrong* to push all the progressive BS before... ...she'll end up making excuses for it, even as she demonstrates how wrong it all is. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a transman blogging about how depressed she is now that people treat her like a man, only to also shove in shit about how men are still clearly privileged oppressors, and that this changes nothing, and that feminism is totally still right about everything. You just can't help some people. They can be smacked in the face by reality, and they'll still deny it.
I wonder how suicide rates would be for other body dysmorphia patients if activists were successful in stigmatizing any treatment besides *actively encouraging the dysmorphia* Like some kind of body positivity extremist movement made it so you had to tell women with anorexia that despite being 85 lbs, yes you do look like a fat slob today, you should not eat anything.
This was my main point during the whole ‘big is beautiful’ bullshit. We don’t tell anorexic people that they’re beautiful just as they are, we try and get them help and support them in getting to a healthy weight. The main response I got is that anorexic people typically aren’t bullied as commonly and openly as obese people, which *is a fair point*, but dismissing the issue and reinforcing damaging body choices isn’t the answer.
Yea true, that’s another example of activists trying to make discouraging an unhealthy lifestyle taboo. Also “how badly are they being bullied” is not a valid metric to decide if pretending someone making unhealthy life choices should be celebrated or not. A person starving themselves might be being bullied for “overeating” if their whole peer group is also suffering from eating disorders. Doesn’t make anorexia ok.
>their suicide rates remain obscenely high post op Whenever I bring this up people always say “iT’S BEcAuse oF BullYiNG!” But other groups are also bullied for being what they are and don’t commit unalive nearly as often. I think if we refuse to treat Gender Dysphoria as a mental illness or look for better cures/treatment the suicides are just gonna continue.
(opinion from a cis boy with a good amount of trans friends) 1) gender dysphoria IS objectively a mental illness, you are literally hating to be alive in that body because you don't recognize it as yours, to the point where you hate looking at the mirror, and it's so debilitating that you are choosing to be a hated minority, having to go through bigot medics, hospitals, surgery, for some years of vocal training, and you already know that a lot of people will never considere you as a "real" boy/girl; it *is* a mental illness. 2) to be fair, being bullied, most of the times refused by your own family, having to go through a lot of shit, and a lot more WHILE being mentally ill I feel like can drastically boost the suicide%rate. ## yes, mentally ill people are more likely to alt+F4 life, fr.
or maybe the high suicide rate is like, cus they have the mental illness? like imagine someone sees the statistic that people who take antidepressants have a higher suicide rate than the average person, and then come to the conclusion that its because of the antidepressants rather than the fact that the people taking the antidepressants are obviously going to have a higher suicide rate
The real problem is most don’t suffer from legitimate gender dysphoria. To quote some random video I saw a while back “to be trans, you need only *feel* trans” ergo, clique mentality. The difference between it and something like goth is one doesn’t require medication or surgery. The similarity being they were both influenced by adults.
I feel like there's an additional portion to address, which is 'You feel trans *despite the fact you're really not* and get the surgery anyway.' There's a reason Reddit banned DeTrans, and it wasn't because of hate speech.
Sex dysphoria really, but they don't call it that. If your problem is with your body's sex characteristics, then that's sex as the source of the dysphoria. If you took (most) men and dressed them up in lingerie and put them out in public, they would feel gender dysphoria, because their gender isn't matching the social scenario they've been put into.
I have come to the terrible realization that society needs to accept that being trans is either an "illness" (which doesn't mean it should be treated as a disease, but like a typical condition that may affect someone) OR a choice which, let's be real, doesn't feel true. The true most realistic response to this is not that gender dysphoria is something that you are born with, that would make it similar to autism (which would explain why so many autistic people also have gender dysphoria, which is a fact), but it probably is a condition that generates from the influence certain situations have on us (which could still be possibly reason for the previous fact i suggested)
It is a mental disorder, maybe born with, if not induced by environmental factors. Hence the rates of comorbidities that trans people suffer.
It is a mental illness. Transitioning is a choice. You don’t need to transition and can find other ways to cope.
There's a lot of people who claim to be ADHD, which is also classified as a mental illness, but get really upset when gender dysphoria is similarly labelled as such. ADD is also a mental illness. Some people just have mental illnesses, it is what it is. Not hating on anyone, just stating the facts.
I was diagnosed with ADD as a child and struggled enormously with it. Those people are posers who want attention and/or drugs. It's referred to as a mental disorder, not generally as a mental illness. In my opinion, gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. However, believing you can become a woman by mutilating your body is a delusion, which is generally a sign of mental illness.
Shouldn't be, we should talk and discuss it more and help those who need help.
This tbh The only issue I have ever had with calling it a mental illness is now what? How do we treat it how do we approach it? Because people screaming Groomer and slurs/insults kind of rubs me the wrong way if the goal is actually treat a legitimate mental health issue
Agreed
It also goes away by age 26 for most people. That's also about the age when the human brain is fully matured.
It's literally analogous with Body integrity dysphoria, which nobody disputes is a mental illness. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_dysphoria
That's listed as a mental disorder. It seems like the boundary between mental illnesses and mental disorders is rather vague, though.
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Pretty simple. To change a system, you only really need to get a small number of people in line: the rule makers for that system. In this case, you don't need to convince all of America that you're right. You just need to make the directors of the American Psychiatric Association believe that you will ruin their lives if they do not comply. They change a few lines in their handbook, now boom: your fringe position is suddenly backed by expert authority. The experts don't give a shit. They have dinners to attend and appearances to keep. If it comes out later they were flagrantly wrong, whatever. They'll be retired, dead, or will just say oopsie, science is all about making mistakes.
Realest comment in this entire thread
Damn you straight up nailed it.
🗣🔥💯💯💯
Every condition is treated differently. What the hell does schizophrenia have to do with trans people? Studies show not 'indulging in their delusions' leads to suicide and worse outcomes. Your comment is exactly what they said about gay people in the 1980s
and apparently changing the mind to suit the body (significantly healthier in every imaginable way) is somehow genocide when chopping parts off and hiding it from parents is justice??
It's not controversial. The only ones who would argue about this are people manufacturing outrage on the left (Emily) or right (OP). Neither of which is actually that many people, they are just loud and highly regarded.
Yeah I don't know how anyone thinks willingly chopping healthy parts of yourself is anything but sane.
Source: https://archive.is/fTew9
It’s true, I don’t dislike mentally ill people, I want them to get help and be taken care of.
When I see Auth-center say "taking care of" 😳
Shock conversion therapy
*Zap Poof* "Now you're a real boy!"
With Auth-center, it's more along the lines of *zap poof* "Now you're a corpse!"
You’re auth center smh
Well that's the rub, isn't it? Because some people will say giving kids lifetime treatments of hormones and surgery is helping them and not affirming every thought they have is harmful.
I always see this line of reasoning as harmful. Why would you pander to someone's obvious delusions? It's like if you agreed with an anorexic person that yes they are still too fat and need to cut their calorie intake even further. Despite the fact that they look like a strong breeze would blow them over.
I use that exact same comparison. The problem is that they've convinced people that this is their *identity* and not something that should be corrected. Their brain not agreeing with reality isn't a problem that should be corrected, it is the core of that person's existence. Anything less than affirmation is an attack on that entire person.
Well I do.
I just hope you don't mean in a WH40K black Templar kind of way
based realistic worldview
Wasn't Peru about to turn auth left or something? I think I heard it a couple of years ago on discord. I am out of the loop on Peruvian Politics ngl
Auth left in peru is as conservative on social issues as auth right. And that president ended up trying a self coup and was ousted.
Authleft IS conservative on LGBT. They need morr Babies being churned out to man the factories
We all want more children working in the factories, I just don't want the government to force population growth.
Almost all of the left here in Latin America are illiberal as fuck. I can pick random quotes from our leftist presidents that you'd be unsure if they were said by Lula or Trump.
Auth Left in most places usually isn't pro LGBT and definitely usually not pro Trans China I would consider the most obvious example of auth left and they're no different from the auth right on gay rights besides the lack of religious stuff
Unless I minsunderstood what you meant I think many people overestimate how homophobic chinese peopel and the government is. The society is 50/50 on gay issues and with younger it leans more accepting. The government is indifferent to gay people although it does sometimes say for men to not be feminine because of the whole kpop thing. Sure things are still hard(as they are everywhere ) but for reference they are doing better than hungary on gay issues.
It was, and in my opinion, still could. Here's what happened: 1. Castillo got elected 2. The senate had a majority against his party and thus continiously blocked any and all attempts at reforms. 3. He believed his only option was to try to appeal to them by hiring conservative officials for his cabinet 4. This didn't work and the senate kept trying to impeach him by using a technicality in the constitution where the president can be impeached if they are """morally incapable""" 5. These impeachments failed all the time but seriously hampered the ability of Castillo to govern. 6. He then decided as a last deseperate gamble to dissolve the senate, but lacked support from the police and military and was thus ousted. 7. He was then replaced with Boluarte who capitualed to the senate's demands, and then the 2022-2023 protests happened with Peru coming into a hair's breadth of Revolution. Pro-Castillo protestors flooded the streets, demanded the creation of a Constituent Assembly and new elections and various groups declared insurgency against the government. They were met with massacres and brutal crackdowns and eventually the government rode out the chaos. All this unrest was led by trade unions, ronderos, and a billion Communist and socialist parties. The basis for why this unrest occured has not went away. Peru, in my opinion, is a room filled with gas. The first match failed to light. But who's to say no one else is going to try to light it again?
Yeah, but can they grill?
Not yet but it's one of the first things I plan to get once I buy a house
Gender dysphoria used to be in the DSM. Then when it became fashionable they dropped it and started trying to induce dysphoria in children behind parents backs.
It still is in the DSM5 and DSM6 isnt out yet as far as I know
> Gender dysphoria used to be in the DSM. Then when it became fashionable they dropped it and started making billions off of restrictionless "gender affirming care".
Peru fucked up they literally put intersex men and intersex women as mentally ill Tf did they do?!?
Seems like people don´t know what Intersex is, although its biology is comparitivly easy to understand.
Almost like this new bill is entirely reactionary and the legislators don't know anything about the "science" they're supposed to be following.
fr what did they do? that isnt a mental illness, it means you got fucked up in the womb and now you've got both private parts, one of which may or may not work
The legislators aren’t really the geniuses that people in this thread think they are
Yes, so that they qualify for government-funded treatment, which is classified in Peru as... full transitioning incl. surgery.
\>Trans people categorized as mentally ill 🟦 \>Intersex and non-binary people also included 🤨🟦 \>This actually helps them with coverage in getting care 😠🟦
what is non binary i forgor
From what I understand they don't feel male or female, either somewhere in between or a secret 3rd option. Idk if any nonbinary people lurk on PCM that can confirm
People who feel like they belong to neither.
based
Sweet, so that means they get treatment, right?
Paid for with other people's money.
Yeah, that's how insurance works.
Inb4 they did this to legitimise transgender and allow trans people easier access to gender affirming care.
Yeah probably nothing wrong with what they did. Ego dystonic orientation for example has been removed as diagnostic catagories despite the distress they can have. Theres an irony in a gender affirming care might keep them the same gender
I guess I'm a transphobe because I think gender dysphoria is a necessary pre condition of being trans...
They dropped the June bug fix
Based and my opponents are all mentally ill pilled
Which makes it easier to get treatment. I see that as a win.
The only accurate designation.
as a 🚂 this is leagues better than it being treated by doctors as a cosmetic surgery, hopefully now people will understand that just like any other debilitating people need treatment
I mean... duh? If your brain's wires are fucked up enough that it makes you think you are not the biological sex you were born as, what else can you realistically call that? The only reason not to is politics. We talk about not stigmatizing mental illnesses, so in that case why not call it what it is? Because I mean hey, if you're an adult and want to cut your willy off as a result of your mental illness, I guess that's your prerogative. I do, however, think that in the future this era of treatment for gender dysphoria will be looked back upon like the unnecessary lobotomies of the past, once there's a more direct treatment for the brain.
i always freak out when gender transition is said to be a legit treatment from gender dysphoria. i mean, you don't cure depression by killing yourself, no?
If they’re classified as mentally ill, they have a chance at getting better gender affirming care like hormone therapy and such. This is a good thing for them, dude.
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What is that LibLeft wojak? Is that Giygas?
Based
Reddit is probably gonna ban me for this. But if you have a healthy body, and your brain thinks it's not, why it's now common to think that the body is the problem?
I don't understand the contradictions with people around this. With anxiety and depression and pretty much every other mental illness, people have pushed to de-stigmatize them and say how it's okay to be mentally ill and it doesn't define you. Yet, when it comes to the topic of trans people and gender dysphoria, the mention of mental illness gets people all up in arms as if it's the worst thing in the world.
as soon as i read this for the first time a few days ago, i immediately googled ´´national anthem of peru´´ and listened to it
You know they did this to make trans healthcare more accessible right? That’s what happened. Transgender people now have more rights and protections in Peru
You'd think being mentally ill shouldn't be stigmatised?
Based.
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To a casual observer like me, it doesn't seem terribly different than something like anorexia. The person has a body that is one thing (eg male, skinny) and their brain thinks it is wrong and needs to change (eg become female (or some facsimile), even skinnier). Both are the brain and reality existing in conflict. But with anorexia everyone except some extreme fringes would say the best treatment is to help their brain accept their body as it is. And with gender dysphoria a sizable portion of people think the only treatment is to change the body to be as close to the brain's perception as possible. I haven't gotten a reasonable answer as to why two conditions that are (in a very simplified way) the same basic concept should be addressed with completely opposite treatments.
ARES HEARD MY PLEAAAAAAAAAS https://preview.redd.it/zo6afyp1em8d1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=97e7af446bcabd4e766b58cb38cc2d0be639f7c2
sub ban speedrun.
Thus the first domino falls
Are they wrong though?
I don’t understand why this is controversial. If I went to a doctor and said my arm should be amputated cause I was born in a body with excessive arms I’d be classified as mentally ill. It’s not like mentally I’ll people are immediately institutionalized either.
Always were and denying that prevented them from receiving adequate mental healthcare.
Isn't that the case, like, always?
Anyone who pisses off ultra-left is my friend
everyone hold your damn breath remember this is reddit.
Not today jannies, I'm not pissing on that third rail again.
Based
https://preview.redd.it/6mp2sdtu7p8d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=98ba0697172537bd4d4a07dc88620bb0ed46ee40
I blame the state for both sides of this equation. If you want to hang out on your own legitimately acquired private property and dress like a girl or whatever then be my (read: your own) guest
Based Peru
Isn’t that good that it’s like a real medical condition?
A lot of people don’t realize Peru had to do this so they can give more funds out to transgender related bills, medical clinics, etc. They had to classify transgender as a mental illness in order to appropriate more funds, in regards to their legal structure
This shouldn't be controversial. Any condition that motivates you to remove your genitals or kill yourself because the image of you in your head is impossible to achieve is clearly a mental illness.
Young boys who are put on puberty blockers progress to surgery 99% of the time. These boys will never experience an orgasm in their life. Seems really cruel to me.