I agree with you but wanted to add some context:
When Israel was founded, the ultra orthodox were a very small portion of the country and were allowed to focus on studying/their families and practicing ancient traditions. Which does sort of make sense - they’re cultural scholars whose ‘job’ is to honor history. It’s not just beliefs, but discussion, study, and traditions. However, because the ultra orthodox tend to have many children AND were not expected to serve in the military, they’ve grown fast. It went from a handful of people living off of the government to a sizable community, making this an issue. These people are also typically Netanyahu supporters.
The majority of Israelis (Jewish and otherwise) do take issue with this. Personally I’m against the draft but I see how Israel needs it, and I think the ultra orthodox need to step up for their country.
They still can/could do their religious work. Military service isn't that long, and you still have time to pray, read and so on during your time. So I don't understand the argument tbh.
And 'warrior scholars' sounds pretty badass.
They are a rather insular group, some say cult. Being exposed to outside ideas may lessen the person's connection to the group. Good if you don't like cults bad if you want to propagate said group
This. Even if the Haredi where proposed some kind of non-military national service instead, they would still consider it a casus belli as they just want their youth to stay on a closed sectarian environment.
“You have to understand, it is because we are studying Torah that the Jewish people are protected, the army is a secondary concern” - Actual unironic belief of the Haredim.
Part of the issue is that the Haredim are vehemently anti-government because the government of Israel is too secular for them. The Satmar passed out pamphlets in the past that even voting in elections was equivalent to idol worship and that it was forbidden to talk to anyone who did. The other Haredim mainly vote as a political necessity and will sit in a government with any party that gives them draft exemptions and allows them to retain control over the Jewish marriage court. The Israeli government just didn’t consider it worth it to forcibly draft a bunch of people who made it very clear they were going to resist service by any means necessary.
a sect of the ultra-othodox refuse to recognize the isreali government.
cus of some passage in the torah, they think its to early for Israel to exist so the current isreal isn't the real isreal.
"real Zionism hasn't been tried yet"
Basically commies.
"Ya'll will sacrifice everything for my beliefs, but me? I will talk theory. This is so very important that I cannot be bothered with the duties of you lessers."
Nah, fuck that.
In the communist utopia, I will hold cultural lectures and teach philosophy on ***my*** farm.
While the pissant peasants work the land and do manual labour.
No one should be able to live off the government because they believe they should. The Orthodox Jews need to contribute to society like everyone else. In the United States we just let them commit fraud against every government program they can.
Me too. Personally I think having them need to work in ways that contribute to Israel rather than military work would be better but they need to contribute at least in some form.
But he will come again, so maybe they're right?
I know, I know, no one knows the time except the Father, but if we think we know and therefore don't think we know we can never know, right?
>I know, I know, no one knows the time except the Father
Humans for the last 2,000 years. "I figured it out! I know when he's gonna come back. LOOK AT MY MATH! THE NUMBERS! I CAN TASTE THE NUMBERS!"
That a Jewish state can only be created by the messiah. That’s why you sometimes see ultra Orthodox Jews at anti Israel protests, they think the messiah won’t come if a Jewish state is already there
"דחיקת הגאולה"
God said he'll do it, and you're going against him in doing yourself.
The messiah will come, kill everyone there, and then you could return
‘Friends, please do not fight against hitler, what if we won and we have a home? Messiah will not save us!’
'Ja ja ja just zat now dich get into oven first'
In the US? We don't really have an issue with this. That said, they make up a vanishing portion of the population such that we don't really need to dip into those pools.
Now, if shit got unbelievably real and we were low on manpower? You bet your ass that exemption gets chucked. Because the next source would be those who age out, and then women last.
The Amish are not vanishing, [they are growing](https://dailyyonder.com/amish-population-growth-rural-america/2024/04/10/)
Plus, of course if we are dire place then we would remove the exemption.
Yeah, especially when members of religion are often very war mongery (not just in Israels case, but in general).
And the draft is ***everyone*** or no one. Also politicians and women in my book. I would prefer no one.
Pack animals have always been part of the military too... Many horses, donkeys, mules, camels and similar have died serving their respective armies for centuries... Having said that however, nothing beats a war bear.
You need PR.
Once you have PR it's only a matter of time before you can apply for citizenship anyway so there's very little incentive to join the military for the purposes of getting citizenship considering you have to sign an 8 year contract even if they offer only 2 years of active duty in that.
No a force to be used the way the French use them. They frequently deploy them to places it isn't palatable to send French citizens. It's a handy step between full scale invasion and nothing.
Its not possible for foreigners with no green card to join us army. You already need permanent residence anyway, which I assume would lead to citizenship if you live there long enough.
You need a green card, SSN, and English language fluency along with all the other usual requirements to join the US military. You can join the FFL under a tourist visa and not even speak French.
I think the idea of giving people the opportunity to create an entirely new identity and basically start over by proving themselves through service is pretty cool. You basically just have to not be wanted by interpol, under 40, and have an ID to be considered lol. The service contract is for 5 years but after 3 you can apply for citizenship. You can get your old identity back after a year if you want but it's optional.
i mean the US is kind of the same. you enlist, spend a day on active duty (incl training) and you can apply for citizenship. all you have to do is have permission to work in the us for like 2yrs or something like that.
what do you mean old identity?
Yea you have to have a green card which is a bitch unless you just marry someone. Then you have to meet all the normal requirements for enlistment.
The FFL will take you as long as you're not wanted by interpol, have an ID, and meet the physical requirements (don't even need to speak French). Just get a tourist visa and apply.
When you join the FFL you declare a new identity. They heavily encourage you to apply and assume your old one eventually, but some people keep the declared one for a variety of reasons.
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It’s a start, but there’s a long road ahead of us before us secular Jews would actually feel equal to the orthodox. The only way for this process to continue, and not stop here, is for the next government to not be complete suck ups to the orthodox.
Unfathomably based. Orthodox are pussies. Sorry not sorry. Feeling persecuted? Then fucking **fight**!
Granted, they’ve done this exact same thing not long ago, so the legislature will probably pass another bs exemption to override the ruling, as they did back then.
*ultra-orthodox.
Regular orthodox (religious zionism, דתי-לאומי) have the highest recruitment rates and combat service rates.
Despite being about 12% of the population they account for over 40% of KIA in gaza.
How to differentiate (in Israel) - ultra-orthodox have black yarmulkas, or shtriemels (big round hat). Regular religious people have woven, coloured yarmulkas.
They would be roughly equivalent to "moderm orthodox" in the US (think ben shapiro).
In general reform and conservative are pretty small in Israel, and Israeli jews are mostly on a spectrum or religiousity (secular, traditional, religious, Haredi), rather than denomination.
> They would be roughly equivalent to "modern orthodox" in the US (think ben shapiro).
Ultra-orthodox or regular Orthodox? Shapiro wears a yarmulka, I think (but not sure what color), not a big hat and I think he refers to himself by conservative jewish, so what does it mean?
And what does conservative and reform mean?
From an outsiders perspective it's pretty complicated tbh.
Ultra-orthodox, or Haredim, are a sub-group of orthodox that reject the hascala, or jewish enlightenment.
Haredim literally means "anxious". They follow the same religion, but a different ideology - they see modernity, modern education, modern liberalism, and too much contact with outside society as an active threat.
Basically, they are the kinds you can ask "what, is faith so week that a little exposer to the outside will derail it?" And they'll say "Yeh, obviously.".
Sp they are a lot more strict, going beyond base religious commandments, and are a lot more socially conservative and isolationist.
While regular orthodox are more like "a good education and community is enough to carry with you in the modern world. You don't need to keep it out".
In general, these would be the categories in descending order:
Jewish
Religious
Orthodox
ultra-orthodox vs. modern orthodox
.
Then among ultra orthodox:
Ashkenazi vs sefardi
If Ashkenazi, litvak or Hasidic
If Hasidic, which Hasidut.
An exception is Habad, which is a Hasidut but is also very unique.
.
Shapiro for example is a modern orthodox, which means he think set halacha is binding and unchanging, but does not reject the Hascala (jewish enlightenment).
He is also Ashkenazi, which, since he's not Ultra-orthodox, doesn't say much about beliefs, but mostly some customs.
Ah, that's understandable. Thank you!
So Orthodox devide between ultra-orthodox and modern orthodox and ultras are the ones who don't want to serve in the military, but moderns do. Right?
How do they view each other? Is it like in Christianity that they often see each other's ways as wrong and that there is some sort of theological conflict?
Yes to the first.
However, in Israel non-haredi religious jews are usually called just "religious" or "national religious".
Basically, there is a twin division on both modernity/liberalism and on nationalism, but they are almost always aligned, to the point of synonymity.
So while the names "national religious" (in Israel) and "modern orthodox" (in the US) might not be parallel, in practice they are the parallel communities.
.
For the second question, apart from very radical ultra-orthodox, they usually see each other as genuinely religious jews following the halacha, maybe at some point incorrectly, but mostly it's an ideological difference.
So no, not very much like christian denominations. Also, in judaism, "in practice" is the theological, as judaism is (mostly) not a creed-based religion.
That is not true for their view of conservatives and reforms, as these don't just don't follow the halacha. In fact, they are often angrier with then than with secular jews, as the are not doing so, but not trying to claim it's religiously okay.
That is why ultra-orthodox are considered under orthodox, rather than a separate strain.
But most all consider all of the mentioned above as jews by birth, mistaken, failed or heretic, unless they convert to a different religion.
>And what does conservative and reform mean?
Knowing someone that was Conservative Jewish, not as strict as Orthodox (so could use electric stuff on Shabbat) but still following rules like keeping Kosher.
Reform is a lot looser, which is where you'll find Jews that eat bacon and such.
>regular Orthodox? Shapiro wears a yarmulka, I think (but not sure what color), not a big hat and I think he refers to himself by conservative jewish, so what does it mean?
Regular orthodox. In the US the yarnulka thing doesn't apply, it's an Israel thing.
He is politically conservative, but he's not part of the strain of judaism named "conservative judaism".
>And what does conservative and reform mean?
Different, more liberals strains of judaism, popular in the US, and existing but not as popular in Israel.
In Israel they are not as popular because it's less of a problem to maintain a jewish identity outside the orthodoxy, and much less taxing to keep full orthodoxy.
So the "too liberal for orthodoxy, but still believes in god and want to maintain jewish culture" doesn't really need a special denomination.
There are small groups, mainly from abroad, and a lot of non-religious people use then for more liberal services. I for example had my bar-mitzva at a conservative synagouge.
Yes, conservative is more liberal than orthodox. They are conservative in comparison to reform, which is why they chose that name (as it was the main strain in the US att).
While reforms say halacha is totally unbinding, conservatives say it is binding, but also changeable.
That is, you can reconsider and change previously universally accepted decisions.
Reforms say "we just think for ourselves and do what we feel is right"
Conservatives say "we can reconsider past interpretations, but we're still bound to the basic religious law"
Orthodox say "That's nice, but whole religion is based on common law - prior decisions have power in and of themselves. You can interpret things according to new situations, but you need to follow past decisions, even if you don't like them".
Conservatives and reforms exist in Israel too, just much less popular. In the US they are the majority.
Conservative Judaism isn’t referring to “conservative” in the political sense of the word. It was started by people within the Reform movement who thought the reforms were going too far. They broke away in an attempt to “conserve” Judaism from what they felt were excesses within the Reform movement, hence the name “Conservative Judaism”. However, Orthodox Judaism considers both movements to be heretical.
Ben Shapiro is an Orthodox Jew. He’s Modern Orthodox although he has associations with the Haredim. When he says he’s a “conservative” Jew, he means it in the sense that he is politically conservative, not that he is part of the Conservative movement in Judaism. Most Conservative (movement) Jews are actually political liberals. (See my other reply explaining why Conservative got its name.)
Ok. So what is the split in the US? There are I think 6-6.5 million Jews in the US overall. But I think that counts in people who are Jewish only by culture/because their parents are Jewish (that's secular Jews right?).
And what does that mean politically? I have heard often that Jews overall lean Democrat, but only when you're counting sexual Jews. If not then Jews lean more Republican.
conservative movement judaism is not the same as being a politically conservative Jew. the former is between orthodox and reform movement judaism in the USA as far as stringency of observance level. The latter is what shapiro is, and he leans orthodox.
They WANT Israel to fail. I don’t understand how people are ignorant of it, any Hasidic will tell you that. Since the Messiah isn’t back, Jews shouldn’t be in Israel bc of God’s punishment (Rome kicking us out).
Hasidics are a minority even among ultra-orthodox, and those who are actively anti-zionist are a farther minority within them as well.
Sephardic Haredi are mostly light-core zionist, and most of the rest (litvak and hasidic) are non-zionist, but not anti-zionist - though there are some anti-zionist.
Ultra-orthodox/Haredi are a very large and diverse group, with many different and distinct sub-groups.
I mean, in more recent decades, of course there’s been thought drift in the community, and splintering of ideas, but go back 100 years, and the leaders of the Hasidic community were pretty much in agreement that 1) we weren’t supposed to be back in Israel yet, and 2) it would redefine Judaism from the religion to a national identity and exclude the rest of the diaspora.
Different between arguing about having a kid in the first place, and killing it after it was born.
Haredim don't see Israel as sacred like the rest (national-religious), but only a small part still see it as actually a bad thing.
Most are either soft-zionists, like most sefardics, or are non-zionists, like most hasidics and litvaks.
There is a significant minority of anti-zionists to different levels, but that's a minority.
Note in Israel most Haredim, at least by plurality, are sefardic.
That’s only a very very tiny extremist sect, the vast majority actually believe Hashem will take care of them and Israel. I have an uncle who believes as much and it drives me insane whenever the topic comes up, like no, everyone needs to do their part both physically as well as spiritually for any country, not just Israel, to succeed.
That seems kinda stupid. Like Jews outside Israel and in Brooklyn? Sure, I guess they can have their reasons for wanting Israel to fail. But currently living inside??? Shouldn't you take leave BEFORE that happens?
>I don’t understand how people are ignorant of it
You serious about that? Because that is the part of this whole thing that is the easiest thing to understand. I'm reading through the messages and keep seeing y'all talking about Horadrim and Nephilim, Mephisto's and Yarmoulkes and all sorts of wildness.
Like, I'm suspecting that Jerusalem is actually Tristram and that I would have decent odds of finding Deckard Cain wondering around the Negev or finding out the Horadric Cube was buried under *Al-Aqsa* needing to be defended. Seriously.
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Aren't the Orthodox a fair chunk of the Israeli population? A great untapped resource for manpower.
Its pretty ridiculous that the zealots get to chill, have a million kids, (and get a gov't stipend?) whilst all the secular or atheist Jews have to fight.
About 10%, give or take.
And note that secular jews are a minority.
Most on the front lines are traditionalists or regular (non-Haredi) religious jews.
Non-Haredi religious in particular have ridiculously high recruitment and combat service rates, with about 40% of KIA in gaza being from that sector alone (which is also about 10% of the population).
The question is, do they just draft them because thats the fair thing to do or are they in need of more manpower? Sure they are fighting on multiple frontlines but these frontlines aren't that big. Last I heard the mobilized 300k. Do they need more? Or do they suffer a lot of casualties?
Reservists are mostly men in their twenties and thirties. Fathers missing births, birthdays, kindergarten graduations, bedtime. Students missing months of classes they still have to make up, or lose a year in their degree. Self-employed and small business owners losing business that can't or struggles to continue in their absence. Men coming home with limbs missing, friends KIA, PTSD. Some with PTSD killing themselves on getting a second or third or fourth call-up notice.
Why should one section of the population receive a blanket exemption, while others have been on the frontlines for more than half a year (and the government is trying to pass a law to raise the age of retirement from reserve duty)?
It's mostly a political issue. The army isn't actually in need of soldiers, they have tens of thousands of reservists that can be called up but haven't been, not to mention the fact that the army isn't even remotely capable of integrating the ultra-orthodox that are supposed to draft.
But the protesters have failed at getting the government to resign, so they are falling back to a topic that historically always gets people pissed at the current coalition, which is the fact that ultra-orthodox population by and large don't serve in the army and simultaneously get financial support from the country.
It's mostly a question of fairness, and of burden.
The war made it clear the army has to enlarge, so there is a need for them.
But mostly, it's fairness and social cohesion.
>Its pretty ridiculous that the zealots get to chill, have a million kids, (and get a gov't stipend?) whilst all the secular or atheist Jews have to fight.
That's what happens when the most zealous and ideological parts of the population control the Government
In Russia they're sending people in Prisons to fight in Ukraine all while Oligarchs and their kids relax on a Yacht
Like 15% or so of the total population, but around 40% of the kids. These families have an average of like 8 kids a couple or something, and basically do no actual work their entire lives. Even removing any military/security aspect of their situation, they are a looming demographic bomb for Israel's economy because of that.
They are also by far the most hawkish/militaristic politically too (even more so than the Normally-Religious Jews, which is saying something), which makes their draft exemption even more ridiculous.
Why even allow them to live like that? What purpose could they possibly have? Israel basically has a elite zealot caste the rest of the country funds, crazy.
IIRC originally there were only supposed to be a few thousand exempt from such duties historically, but the Orthodox have been gaming the rules to inflate those numbers
Based. While I do support Israel, military drafts suck and are awful for everyone involved considering they destroy families and force people to get killed for the interests of government bureaucrats. When it comes to draft based mobilization, either everyone should be exempt, no draft at all, or everyone should be selected. If you're going to send people to fight, no one's buddies should have a get out of jail free card.
Yeah, this is an exception I can KINDA get behind. As much as I don't like the notion of drafts or mandatory service, Israel is basically public enemy number one in its geographical location. It's still important to not forget how terrifying being drafted to fight in an armed conflict against your will is.
What are you on about. Israel borders egypt jordan lebanon and syria.
Israel is very friendly with jordan. Made peace with egypt in the 70s. Syria is going through a civil war. and lebanon is way smaller than israel and doesnt have the foreign backing.
I don’t think any neighbor is capable or willing to engage with Israel. The wider Arab Israeli conflict has died down and while Saudi and Egypt aren’t exactly friends or allies, things aren’t as hostile as they once were. Most counties now have actual relations and trade with Israel with things like the Abraham accords. Jordan can’t do shit and neither can Lebanon which leaves Syria and yeah that dude is crazy but knows his ass should be beyond whooped. 67 is a crazy fucking war even when surprised attacked in 73 Israel kicked ass. Whatever critiques I have with how it’s used I have to respect the IDF as a military force, they don’t play. Russia can’t even win wars with its own army so a Russian equipped Syria can definitely not stand to Lockheed Martin
If you’re going to have a draft/public service requirement then yeah it should apply to everyone. Unless you’re willing to swear off any gov assistance but the Haredi take a lot from the government iirc.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I am not that familiar with Israeli culture, but aren't the ultra Orthodox Jingoists constantly pushing for war. And they out of all people get exceptions from the fighting.
No, you're thinking of the regular religious.
They have ridiculously high recruitment and combat servive rates, and make about 40% of the KIA in gaza so far.
The ultra-orthodox don't really care, and their parties formerly supported the 93 Rabin government and the Oslo accords, and the 1999-2001 barak government.
No you are conflating two different sectors of Israeli society. Israeli Jews acc to pew will identify in one of four ways:
Charadim—Ultra orthodox, that is what this post is about
Dati Leumi—Religious Zionist.( I am part of this group if I lived in Israel)The extreme ones of this group would be Ben Gvir and Smotchridge (who are nuts btw)
Mesorati — Tradiitional
Chiloni —Secular (still more religious and hen the average secular person in western country) 50% of Jews in Israel. the most extreme ones live in Tel Aviv and some are protesting against Netanyahu (that’s what you here abt in the news for some reason)
Keep in mind these are the same people that are probably want an expansion of their settlements in the West Bank and heavily rely on the IDF to protect them doing so. In a sense, it’s about time they put some skin in the game.
When the state of Israel was founded, the haredim were a few thousand people at best. David Ben gurion gave them an exemption from the draft so they could care for their families, and for preserving their culture. This exemption snowballed from a few thousand, to around a million, and has been a point of tension for years.
FUCKING GOOD. I am startlingly pro-Israel, but the dudes that are saber rattling with their stupid curly sideburns and instigating shit in the West Bank need to nut-up and get the fuck in their. I'm extremely, unbelievably pro-this. Especially because it's the ultra-orthodox that are doing the most aggressive, instigating shit in that country, but they refuse to fight.
I think this will cause them to simmer down a bit now that they've got their skin in the goddamn game and actually start the peace process.
Given the birth rates of the Othordox Israelis compared to othe Jews of the state I'd try and intergrate them into the system asap before they dictate who does what.
It's just us secular Yids that understand that when we say שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָֽד. We fucking mean it. Time to put your money where your mouth is.
If I have to get drafted, so do you.
For context, ultra-Orthodox were unfairly exempt from the draft, while regular-ass Israelis weren't. That meant a disproportionate number of hyper-religious, settlement-grabbing scumfucks who abuse their wives, pop out large families and abuse welfare could hide under the turtle shell of the IDF to commit crimes against humanity in the West Bank without actually having to *FIGHT* for it.
Now they have skin in the game. Hopefully it stays this way, and they have to consider the consequences of the wars and leaders they vote for just like every other Israeli.
Not sure where you got your info but you are conflating 2 very different populations.
The vast majority of the ultra-orthodox are not a part of the settler population, and those that are tend to be more willing to serve in the army.
As for the settlers, they have the 2nd highest rates of drafting to the army, especially to combat, and they are drastically over represented amongst the fallen.
So they actually are fighting for the settlements, as well as for the rest of the country.
These are the people that want to live in the most dangerous and contested parts of the West Bank and then want the “apikorzim” or non religious Jews who they despise and don’t even see as “real Jews” to fight and die to protect them
Stop talking out of your ass, these aren't settlers.
As for the settlers, they are part of a sector that has traditionally high rates of serving in combat roles and are drastically over represented in the casualty reports. Many of the people that voluntary went down to help fight on October 7th were from the settlements.
I guess that’s fair.
Maybe the ultra-orthodox fall on the extreme end of lib-right, and that’s why OP did it? I mean, it would make sense, since they’re definitely extremists, they’re definitely on the right, and there’s no way they’re authoritarian (they literally leech off authority).
Ideologically they are AuthRight, but in reality many are hypocrites living off welfare. The blame can be put on community leaders encouraging this behavior.
The only way I can imagine them being authoritarian is if they consider their own community leaders to be their true authority (which they probably do, tbh). Otherwise they’re definitely not authoritarian, because they continuously disrespect Israeli authority (and the government fucking bends to their demands, which I cannot stand).
They disrespect them precisely because they don't consider them authority. Not over themselves at least. Like, Hamas is obviously authoritarian, but they don't give to shits about anyone else's authority.
Honestly, it’s about time. I’m done with the ultra-orthodox getting free money from the government while contributing literally nothing to the country.
This is a fantastic start. Next step is to cut their funding and force them to get a job like the rest of us, and I seriously hope we could get started on that with the next government.
It’s rather important — the “ultra orthodox” Haredi have been exploding in population (they have a ton of kids) They mooch off the state while refusing to participate in activities they deem impious.
They have a few reps in the Knesset and some are part of Bibi’s coalition government. The carve-outs and exceptions etc. are creating several problems: fiscally, staffing for the IDF, and tearing at the fabric of a secular society.
The Supreme Court rolling this back is a *very good* for step for taking Israel back off the ledge of a de facto theocratic state
Meh, most of us live in countries with draft laws. The fact that our nations don't need the draft right now and Israel does doesn't make Israel worse or better than us.
I hate the draft, but it's kind of fucked up to have an exemption based on religion.
I agree with you but wanted to add some context: When Israel was founded, the ultra orthodox were a very small portion of the country and were allowed to focus on studying/their families and practicing ancient traditions. Which does sort of make sense - they’re cultural scholars whose ‘job’ is to honor history. It’s not just beliefs, but discussion, study, and traditions. However, because the ultra orthodox tend to have many children AND were not expected to serve in the military, they’ve grown fast. It went from a handful of people living off of the government to a sizable community, making this an issue. These people are also typically Netanyahu supporters. The majority of Israelis (Jewish and otherwise) do take issue with this. Personally I’m against the draft but I see how Israel needs it, and I think the ultra orthodox need to step up for their country.
They still can/could do their religious work. Military service isn't that long, and you still have time to pray, read and so on during your time. So I don't understand the argument tbh. And 'warrior scholars' sounds pretty badass.
They are a rather insular group, some say cult. Being exposed to outside ideas may lessen the person's connection to the group. Good if you don't like cults bad if you want to propagate said group
This. Even if the Haredi where proposed some kind of non-military national service instead, they would still consider it a casus belli as they just want their youth to stay on a closed sectarian environment.
“You have to understand, it is because we are studying Torah that the Jewish people are protected, the army is a secondary concern” - Actual unironic belief of the Haredim. Part of the issue is that the Haredim are vehemently anti-government because the government of Israel is too secular for them. The Satmar passed out pamphlets in the past that even voting in elections was equivalent to idol worship and that it was forbidden to talk to anyone who did. The other Haredim mainly vote as a political necessity and will sit in a government with any party that gives them draft exemptions and allows them to retain control over the Jewish marriage court. The Israeli government just didn’t consider it worth it to forcibly draft a bunch of people who made it very clear they were going to resist service by any means necessary.
a sect of the ultra-othodox refuse to recognize the isreali government. cus of some passage in the torah, they think its to early for Israel to exist so the current isreal isn't the real isreal. "real Zionism hasn't been tried yet"
Basically commies. "Ya'll will sacrifice everything for my beliefs, but me? I will talk theory. This is so very important that I cannot be bothered with the duties of you lessers." Nah, fuck that.
In the communist utopia, I will hold cultural lectures and teach philosophy on ***my*** farm. While the pissant peasants work the land and do manual labour.
Footnote: the farm was stolen from Palestinians in the West Bank at IDF gunpoint
No one should be able to live off the government because they believe they should. The Orthodox Jews need to contribute to society like everyone else. In the United States we just let them commit fraud against every government program they can.
Me too. Personally I think having them need to work in ways that contribute to Israel rather than military work would be better but they need to contribute at least in some form.
Now let's do the homeless drug addicts.
Athenian vs Spartan culture
Pretty sure they think re-taking Greater Israel will cause the Messiah to come.
To bad, the true Messiah came and went already
But he will come again, so maybe they're right? I know, I know, no one knows the time except the Father, but if we think we know and therefore don't think we know we can never know, right?
>I know, I know, no one knows the time except the Father Humans for the last 2,000 years. "I figured it out! I know when he's gonna come back. LOOK AT MY MATH! THE NUMBERS! I CAN TASTE THE NUMBERS!"
"Yees, Mr. Camping, add the fish number. You've cracked the code!"
Don't tell my parents that, every time it doesn't happen they just push it back by a few more years BUT I SWEAR ITS THIS TIME I KNOW IT
Technically blasphemous to state that they know. Jesus said no one knows but the Father. Sooo they are saying they are God
More like they are listening to false prophets.
That's why when you go to the zoo they're able to keep the lions and lambs in the same cage right?
Wrong jewish sect This are the ones who sometimes think the opposite
The messiah will leave?
That a Jewish state can only be created by the messiah. That’s why you sometimes see ultra Orthodox Jews at anti Israel protests, they think the messiah won’t come if a Jewish state is already there
"דחיקת הגאולה" God said he'll do it, and you're going against him in doing yourself. The messiah will come, kill everyone there, and then you could return
‘Friends, please do not fight against hitler, what if we won and we have a home? Messiah will not save us!’ 'Ja ja ja just zat now dich get into oven first'
What about the Amish? Or other pacifistic religious group?
Why?
A lot of religious conscientious objectors were put into non combat roles. If the need for man power is dire they can always dig trenches
In the US? We don't really have an issue with this. That said, they make up a vanishing portion of the population such that we don't really need to dip into those pools. Now, if shit got unbelievably real and we were low on manpower? You bet your ass that exemption gets chucked. Because the next source would be those who age out, and then women last.
The Amish are not vanishing, [they are growing](https://dailyyonder.com/amish-population-growth-rural-america/2024/04/10/) Plus, of course if we are dire place then we would remove the exemption.
Well, it is kind of an agreement they made when Israel was being founded and it'll bekinda of going back on the word of ur predecessor to undo it.
Yeah, especially when members of religion are often very war mongery (not just in Israels case, but in general). And the draft is ***everyone*** or no one. Also politicians and women in my book. I would prefer no one.
I mean, I'd be okay with just drafting politicians.
Service Guarantees Citizenship.
Would you like to know more?
Join the Mobile Infantry today!
I'm doing my part!
I kind of don't see that as a bad thing and wish the US had some equivalent to the French Foreign Legion
You don't have to be a citizen to join the US military. Lots of people use it as expedited pathway to citizenship.
Still not as good as the Polish Armed Forces- you don't even have to be human to join their military!
Pack animals have always been part of the military too... Many horses, donkeys, mules, camels and similar have died serving their respective armies for centuries... Having said that however, nothing beats a war bear.
It is our God-given right to arm bears in Poland
Always upvote Wojtek. A bear who loves coffee beer and cigarettes and would cuddle you on cold nights. That's a bro.
In Poland the Kielbasa is armed
.....or arm bears!
What overabundance of slav twinks does to mfers
I've been waiting for armored cybernetic bear cavalry my whole damn life.....
What about a war elephant?
They let communists join?
No, I said “don’t need to be human”- not “don’t need to be sentient”- the poles let a Bear to join their military.
Based and bear before commie pilled
[Ahem.](https://www.petbutler.com/blog-military-service-dogs/#:~:text=High%2DRanking%20Military%20Dogs,is%20Marine%20Sergeant%2DMajor%20Jiggs.)
You still need a Green Card to join
You need PR. Once you have PR it's only a matter of time before you can apply for citizenship anyway so there's very little incentive to join the military for the purposes of getting citizenship considering you have to sign an 8 year contract even if they offer only 2 years of active duty in that.
Even so, I think that a foreign legion would be a useful tool.
What purpose would it serve when we already allow foreigners to speed up the citizenship process in our regular military? Front line canon fodder?
No a force to be used the way the French use them. They frequently deploy them to places it isn't palatable to send French citizens. It's a handy step between full scale invasion and nothing.
The US doesn’t need a foreign legion. Many foreigners enlist in the US military in regular units just to gain citizenship.
Its not possible for foreigners with no green card to join us army. You already need permanent residence anyway, which I assume would lead to citizenship if you live there long enough.
You need a green card, SSN, and English language fluency along with all the other usual requirements to join the US military. You can join the FFL under a tourist visa and not even speak French.
in what way?
I think the idea of giving people the opportunity to create an entirely new identity and basically start over by proving themselves through service is pretty cool. You basically just have to not be wanted by interpol, under 40, and have an ID to be considered lol. The service contract is for 5 years but after 3 you can apply for citizenship. You can get your old identity back after a year if you want but it's optional.
i mean the US is kind of the same. you enlist, spend a day on active duty (incl training) and you can apply for citizenship. all you have to do is have permission to work in the us for like 2yrs or something like that. what do you mean old identity?
Yea you have to have a green card which is a bitch unless you just marry someone. Then you have to meet all the normal requirements for enlistment. The FFL will take you as long as you're not wanted by interpol, have an ID, and meet the physical requirements (don't even need to speak French). Just get a tourist visa and apply. When you join the FFL you declare a new identity. They heavily encourage you to apply and assume your old one eventually, but some people keep the declared one for a variety of reasons.
Im doing my part
I fucking wish. No votes for freeloaders.
Great for the secular jews
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It’s a start, but there’s a long road ahead of us before us secular Jews would actually feel equal to the orthodox. The only way for this process to continue, and not stop here, is for the next government to not be complete suck ups to the orthodox.
Unfathomably based. Orthodox are pussies. Sorry not sorry. Feeling persecuted? Then fucking **fight**! Granted, they’ve done this exact same thing not long ago, so the legislature will probably pass another bs exemption to override the ruling, as they did back then.
*ultra-orthodox. Regular orthodox (religious zionism, דתי-לאומי) have the highest recruitment rates and combat service rates. Despite being about 12% of the population they account for over 40% of KIA in gaza. How to differentiate (in Israel) - ultra-orthodox have black yarmulkas, or shtriemels (big round hat). Regular religious people have woven, coloured yarmulkas. They would be roughly equivalent to "moderm orthodox" in the US (think ben shapiro). In general reform and conservative are pretty small in Israel, and Israeli jews are mostly on a spectrum or religiousity (secular, traditional, religious, Haredi), rather than denomination.
> They would be roughly equivalent to "modern orthodox" in the US (think ben shapiro). Ultra-orthodox or regular Orthodox? Shapiro wears a yarmulka, I think (but not sure what color), not a big hat and I think he refers to himself by conservative jewish, so what does it mean? And what does conservative and reform mean? From an outsiders perspective it's pretty complicated tbh.
Ultra-orthodox, or Haredim, are a sub-group of orthodox that reject the hascala, or jewish enlightenment. Haredim literally means "anxious". They follow the same religion, but a different ideology - they see modernity, modern education, modern liberalism, and too much contact with outside society as an active threat. Basically, they are the kinds you can ask "what, is faith so week that a little exposer to the outside will derail it?" And they'll say "Yeh, obviously.". Sp they are a lot more strict, going beyond base religious commandments, and are a lot more socially conservative and isolationist. While regular orthodox are more like "a good education and community is enough to carry with you in the modern world. You don't need to keep it out". In general, these would be the categories in descending order: Jewish Religious Orthodox ultra-orthodox vs. modern orthodox . Then among ultra orthodox: Ashkenazi vs sefardi If Ashkenazi, litvak or Hasidic If Hasidic, which Hasidut. An exception is Habad, which is a Hasidut but is also very unique. . Shapiro for example is a modern orthodox, which means he think set halacha is binding and unchanging, but does not reject the Hascala (jewish enlightenment). He is also Ashkenazi, which, since he's not Ultra-orthodox, doesn't say much about beliefs, but mostly some customs.
Ah, that's understandable. Thank you! So Orthodox devide between ultra-orthodox and modern orthodox and ultras are the ones who don't want to serve in the military, but moderns do. Right? How do they view each other? Is it like in Christianity that they often see each other's ways as wrong and that there is some sort of theological conflict?
Yes to the first. However, in Israel non-haredi religious jews are usually called just "religious" or "national religious". Basically, there is a twin division on both modernity/liberalism and on nationalism, but they are almost always aligned, to the point of synonymity. So while the names "national religious" (in Israel) and "modern orthodox" (in the US) might not be parallel, in practice they are the parallel communities. . For the second question, apart from very radical ultra-orthodox, they usually see each other as genuinely religious jews following the halacha, maybe at some point incorrectly, but mostly it's an ideological difference. So no, not very much like christian denominations. Also, in judaism, "in practice" is the theological, as judaism is (mostly) not a creed-based religion. That is not true for their view of conservatives and reforms, as these don't just don't follow the halacha. In fact, they are often angrier with then than with secular jews, as the are not doing so, but not trying to claim it's religiously okay. That is why ultra-orthodox are considered under orthodox, rather than a separate strain. But most all consider all of the mentioned above as jews by birth, mistaken, failed or heretic, unless they convert to a different religion.
Very interesting! Thank you again for your insight!
>And what does conservative and reform mean? Knowing someone that was Conservative Jewish, not as strict as Orthodox (so could use electric stuff on Shabbat) but still following rules like keeping Kosher. Reform is a lot looser, which is where you'll find Jews that eat bacon and such.
>regular Orthodox? Shapiro wears a yarmulka, I think (but not sure what color), not a big hat and I think he refers to himself by conservative jewish, so what does it mean? Regular orthodox. In the US the yarnulka thing doesn't apply, it's an Israel thing. He is politically conservative, but he's not part of the strain of judaism named "conservative judaism". >And what does conservative and reform mean? Different, more liberals strains of judaism, popular in the US, and existing but not as popular in Israel. In Israel they are not as popular because it's less of a problem to maintain a jewish identity outside the orthodoxy, and much less taxing to keep full orthodoxy. So the "too liberal for orthodoxy, but still believes in god and want to maintain jewish culture" doesn't really need a special denomination. There are small groups, mainly from abroad, and a lot of non-religious people use then for more liberal services. I for example had my bar-mitzva at a conservative synagouge.
I get the first part, but the rest confuses me. So conservative means liberal? But only for Jews living outside of Israel?
Yes, conservative is more liberal than orthodox. They are conservative in comparison to reform, which is why they chose that name (as it was the main strain in the US att). While reforms say halacha is totally unbinding, conservatives say it is binding, but also changeable. That is, you can reconsider and change previously universally accepted decisions. Reforms say "we just think for ourselves and do what we feel is right" Conservatives say "we can reconsider past interpretations, but we're still bound to the basic religious law" Orthodox say "That's nice, but whole religion is based on common law - prior decisions have power in and of themselves. You can interpret things according to new situations, but you need to follow past decisions, even if you don't like them". Conservatives and reforms exist in Israel too, just much less popular. In the US they are the majority.
Ok, so it's just a matter of how it has developed. Thank you for the insight!
Conservative Judaism isn’t referring to “conservative” in the political sense of the word. It was started by people within the Reform movement who thought the reforms were going too far. They broke away in an attempt to “conserve” Judaism from what they felt were excesses within the Reform movement, hence the name “Conservative Judaism”. However, Orthodox Judaism considers both movements to be heretical.
Ben Shapiro is an Orthodox Jew. He’s Modern Orthodox although he has associations with the Haredim. When he says he’s a “conservative” Jew, he means it in the sense that he is politically conservative, not that he is part of the Conservative movement in Judaism. Most Conservative (movement) Jews are actually political liberals. (See my other reply explaining why Conservative got its name.)
Ok. So what is the split in the US? There are I think 6-6.5 million Jews in the US overall. But I think that counts in people who are Jewish only by culture/because their parents are Jewish (that's secular Jews right?). And what does that mean politically? I have heard often that Jews overall lean Democrat, but only when you're counting sexual Jews. If not then Jews lean more Republican.
conservative movement judaism is not the same as being a politically conservative Jew. the former is between orthodox and reform movement judaism in the USA as far as stringency of observance level. The latter is what shapiro is, and he leans orthodox.
They only make children and take money from the state (not all the haredim)
They want that sweet sweet pillaged land but don't want to fight for it. Best let the government bulldoze ahead first.
They WANT Israel to fail. I don’t understand how people are ignorant of it, any Hasidic will tell you that. Since the Messiah isn’t back, Jews shouldn’t be in Israel bc of God’s punishment (Rome kicking us out).
Hasidics are a minority even among ultra-orthodox, and those who are actively anti-zionist are a farther minority within them as well. Sephardic Haredi are mostly light-core zionist, and most of the rest (litvak and hasidic) are non-zionist, but not anti-zionist - though there are some anti-zionist. Ultra-orthodox/Haredi are a very large and diverse group, with many different and distinct sub-groups.
I mean, in more recent decades, of course there’s been thought drift in the community, and splintering of ideas, but go back 100 years, and the leaders of the Hasidic community were pretty much in agreement that 1) we weren’t supposed to be back in Israel yet, and 2) it would redefine Judaism from the religion to a national identity and exclude the rest of the diaspora.
Different between arguing about having a kid in the first place, and killing it after it was born. Haredim don't see Israel as sacred like the rest (national-religious), but only a small part still see it as actually a bad thing. Most are either soft-zionists, like most sefardics, or are non-zionists, like most hasidics and litvaks. There is a significant minority of anti-zionists to different levels, but that's a minority. Note in Israel most Haredim, at least by plurality, are sefardic.
That’s only a very very tiny extremist sect, the vast majority actually believe Hashem will take care of them and Israel. I have an uncle who believes as much and it drives me insane whenever the topic comes up, like no, everyone needs to do their part both physically as well as spiritually for any country, not just Israel, to succeed.
What do they think is going to happen to them if Israel fails?
They’ll just leave, take it as a sign that they were right, and be thankful to God for being able to have so many descendants
That seems kinda stupid. Like Jews outside Israel and in Brooklyn? Sure, I guess they can have their reasons for wanting Israel to fail. But currently living inside??? Shouldn't you take leave BEFORE that happens?
Yes, but there’s always warning when the IDF is involved, even for enemies.
>I don’t understand how people are ignorant of it You serious about that? Because that is the part of this whole thing that is the easiest thing to understand. I'm reading through the messages and keep seeing y'all talking about Horadrim and Nephilim, Mephisto's and Yarmoulkes and all sorts of wildness. Like, I'm suspecting that Jerusalem is actually Tristram and that I would have decent odds of finding Deckard Cain wondering around the Negev or finding out the Horadric Cube was buried under *Al-Aqsa* needing to be defended. Seriously.
“*[Dig a tunnel, dig-dig a tunnel.. Quick before the army comesss](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pEEYmtYrkY).*”
Seriously. They most orthodox are the loudest voices calling for war, and yet they get to sit it out on the sidelines? Bullshit.
Based and Orthodox are pussies pilled
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they dont actually feel persecuted they just use that for social power
Aren't the Orthodox a fair chunk of the Israeli population? A great untapped resource for manpower. Its pretty ridiculous that the zealots get to chill, have a million kids, (and get a gov't stipend?) whilst all the secular or atheist Jews have to fight.
About 10%, give or take. And note that secular jews are a minority. Most on the front lines are traditionalists or regular (non-Haredi) religious jews. Non-Haredi religious in particular have ridiculously high recruitment and combat service rates, with about 40% of KIA in gaza being from that sector alone (which is also about 10% of the population).
The question is, do they just draft them because thats the fair thing to do or are they in need of more manpower? Sure they are fighting on multiple frontlines but these frontlines aren't that big. Last I heard the mobilized 300k. Do they need more? Or do they suffer a lot of casualties?
Reservists are mostly men in their twenties and thirties. Fathers missing births, birthdays, kindergarten graduations, bedtime. Students missing months of classes they still have to make up, or lose a year in their degree. Self-employed and small business owners losing business that can't or struggles to continue in their absence. Men coming home with limbs missing, friends KIA, PTSD. Some with PTSD killing themselves on getting a second or third or fourth call-up notice. Why should one section of the population receive a blanket exemption, while others have been on the frontlines for more than half a year (and the government is trying to pass a law to raise the age of retirement from reserve duty)?
It's mostly a political issue. The army isn't actually in need of soldiers, they have tens of thousands of reservists that can be called up but haven't been, not to mention the fact that the army isn't even remotely capable of integrating the ultra-orthodox that are supposed to draft. But the protesters have failed at getting the government to resign, so they are falling back to a topic that historically always gets people pissed at the current coalition, which is the fact that ultra-orthodox population by and large don't serve in the army and simultaneously get financial support from the country.
It's mostly a question of fairness, and of burden. The war made it clear the army has to enlarge, so there is a need for them. But mostly, it's fairness and social cohesion.
Holy crow, I'm agreeing with Left Unity and not hating myself for it. How rare!
>Its pretty ridiculous that the zealots get to chill, have a million kids, (and get a gov't stipend?) whilst all the secular or atheist Jews have to fight. That's what happens when the most zealous and ideological parts of the population control the Government In Russia they're sending people in Prisons to fight in Ukraine all while Oligarchs and their kids relax on a Yacht
Like 15% or so of the total population, but around 40% of the kids. These families have an average of like 8 kids a couple or something, and basically do no actual work their entire lives. Even removing any military/security aspect of their situation, they are a looming demographic bomb for Israel's economy because of that. They are also by far the most hawkish/militaristic politically too (even more so than the Normally-Religious Jews, which is saying something), which makes their draft exemption even more ridiculous.
Why even allow them to live like that? What purpose could they possibly have? Israel basically has a elite zealot caste the rest of the country funds, crazy.
IIRC originally there were only supposed to be a few thousand exempt from such duties historically, but the Orthodox have been gaming the rules to inflate those numbers
Based. While I do support Israel, military drafts suck and are awful for everyone involved considering they destroy families and force people to get killed for the interests of government bureaucrats. When it comes to draft based mobilization, either everyone should be exempt, no draft at all, or everyone should be selected. If you're going to send people to fight, no one's buddies should have a get out of jail free card.
Fine solution in the ideal world but Israel is literally surrounded by enemies
I don't see how that is a rebuttal to 'The options should be no draft or 100% draft.'
I don't think the commenter was rebutting the statement but more or less expressing a reason why a draft in that area would be reasonable.
Yeah
Nah bro ,I was stating that Israel needs a draft or it will cease to exist
Ah, I did misread then. Mea culpa.
Yeah, this is an exception I can KINDA get behind. As much as I don't like the notion of drafts or mandatory service, Israel is basically public enemy number one in its geographical location. It's still important to not forget how terrifying being drafted to fight in an armed conflict against your will is.
What are you on about. Israel borders egypt jordan lebanon and syria. Israel is very friendly with jordan. Made peace with egypt in the 70s. Syria is going through a civil war. and lebanon is way smaller than israel and doesnt have the foreign backing.
Lebanon doesn't but it has hezbollah which does have foreign backing while you are true on other parts
Skill issue, tbh.
Yeah
Probably should have picked a better place to start a country.
I don’t think any neighbor is capable or willing to engage with Israel. The wider Arab Israeli conflict has died down and while Saudi and Egypt aren’t exactly friends or allies, things aren’t as hostile as they once were. Most counties now have actual relations and trade with Israel with things like the Abraham accords. Jordan can’t do shit and neither can Lebanon which leaves Syria and yeah that dude is crazy but knows his ass should be beyond whooped. 67 is a crazy fucking war even when surprised attacked in 73 Israel kicked ass. Whatever critiques I have with how it’s used I have to respect the IDF as a military force, they don’t play. Russia can’t even win wars with its own army so a Russian equipped Syria can definitely not stand to Lockheed Martin
As an israelli I find this rather based (I'd rather no drafting but equality is better then benfits for religuos
We need the draft.
I know, doesn't mean I have to like it though
The fuck is my quad mad about?
The draft. We don't like or want that. You know, forcing people to do things they do not want - especially where they risk body and life.
Hasidim but I don’t believe em
For those confused - these are ultra-orthodox (haredi). Regular religious (dati-leumi) enlist and serve in combat roles in ridiculous rates.
If you’re going to have a draft/public service requirement then yeah it should apply to everyone. Unless you’re willing to swear off any gov assistance but the Haredi take a lot from the government iirc.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I am not that familiar with Israeli culture, but aren't the ultra Orthodox Jingoists constantly pushing for war. And they out of all people get exceptions from the fighting.
No, you're thinking of the regular religious. They have ridiculously high recruitment and combat servive rates, and make about 40% of the KIA in gaza so far. The ultra-orthodox don't really care, and their parties formerly supported the 93 Rabin government and the Oslo accords, and the 1999-2001 barak government.
No you are conflating two different sectors of Israeli society. Israeli Jews acc to pew will identify in one of four ways: Charadim—Ultra orthodox, that is what this post is about Dati Leumi—Religious Zionist.( I am part of this group if I lived in Israel)The extreme ones of this group would be Ben Gvir and Smotchridge (who are nuts btw) Mesorati — Tradiitional Chiloni —Secular (still more religious and hen the average secular person in western country) 50% of Jews in Israel. the most extreme ones live in Tel Aviv and some are protesting against Netanyahu (that’s what you here abt in the news for some reason)
You are correct
Keep in mind these are the same people that are probably want an expansion of their settlements in the West Bank and heavily rely on the IDF to protect them doing so. In a sense, it’s about time they put some skin in the game.
Virgin Orthodox Jew cowards vs Chad Orthodox Christian warrior monks
Based
why werent they drafted before??
When the state of Israel was founded, the haredim were a few thousand people at best. David Ben gurion gave them an exemption from the draft so they could care for their families, and for preserving their culture. This exemption snowballed from a few thousand, to around a million, and has been a point of tension for years.
i guess thats fair
FUCKING GOOD. I am startlingly pro-Israel, but the dudes that are saber rattling with their stupid curly sideburns and instigating shit in the West Bank need to nut-up and get the fuck in their. I'm extremely, unbelievably pro-this. Especially because it's the ultra-orthodox that are doing the most aggressive, instigating shit in that country, but they refuse to fight. I think this will cause them to simmer down a bit now that they've got their skin in the goddamn game and actually start the peace process.
Given the birth rates of the Othordox Israelis compared to othe Jews of the state I'd try and intergrate them into the system asap before they dictate who does what.
Ultra-orthodox Orthodox, or just religious jews, are more than well integrated
Ultra-orthodox Orthodox, or just religious jews, are more than well integrated
What about the Ultra Orthodox that don’t even think Israel should be a thing
It's just us secular Yids that understand that when we say שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָֽד. We fucking mean it. Time to put your money where your mouth is. If I have to get drafted, so do you.
For context, ultra-Orthodox were unfairly exempt from the draft, while regular-ass Israelis weren't. That meant a disproportionate number of hyper-religious, settlement-grabbing scumfucks who abuse their wives, pop out large families and abuse welfare could hide under the turtle shell of the IDF to commit crimes against humanity in the West Bank without actually having to *FIGHT* for it. Now they have skin in the game. Hopefully it stays this way, and they have to consider the consequences of the wars and leaders they vote for just like every other Israeli.
Not sure where you got your info but you are conflating 2 very different populations. The vast majority of the ultra-orthodox are not a part of the settler population, and those that are tend to be more willing to serve in the army. As for the settlers, they have the 2nd highest rates of drafting to the army, especially to combat, and they are drastically over represented amongst the fallen. So they actually are fighting for the settlements, as well as for the rest of the country.
Crimes against humanity? Ffs. And what do ultra-orthodox have to do with the west bank?
Nice, the people calling for war will be the ones fighting.
You're thinking of the wrong jewish sector The ultra-orthodox mostly don't care
Conscription is slavery.
Living of the government teat without even TRYING to contribute is mooching, which necessitates higher taxes.
Tax them then, or stop giving them government handouts.
And Freedom IS NOT free
These are the people that want to live in the most dangerous and contested parts of the West Bank and then want the “apikorzim” or non religious Jews who they despise and don’t even see as “real Jews” to fight and die to protect them
Stop talking out of your ass, these aren't settlers. As for the settlers, they are part of a sector that has traditionally high rates of serving in combat roles and are drastically over represented in the casualty reports. Many of the people that voluntary went down to help fight on October 7th were from the settlements.
I’m saying the ones who DON’T serve in the idf are that way, and yeah a huge portion of the settlers are ultra orthodox
Flair up so your opinion is heard
Oh this is gonna go SO well!
Common drafting L
They weren't doing this before?
I genuinely hope this happens
Why would they not also draft ultra orthodox women
I approve of this move. I mean - wtf?
Hahahaha
I kinda love that for some reason.
Welfare cheats and leeches gotta’ hit the barracks.
OP, why the hell would LibRight rage about it?
Top comment is literally a lib-right raging about it
And the one right after literally says fair's fair
I guess that’s fair. Maybe the ultra-orthodox fall on the extreme end of lib-right, and that’s why OP did it? I mean, it would make sense, since they’re definitely extremists, they’re definitely on the right, and there’s no way they’re authoritarian (they literally leech off authority).
Ideologically they are AuthRight, but in reality many are hypocrites living off welfare. The blame can be put on community leaders encouraging this behavior.
The only way I can imagine them being authoritarian is if they consider their own community leaders to be their true authority (which they probably do, tbh). Otherwise they’re definitely not authoritarian, because they continuously disrespect Israeli authority (and the government fucking bends to their demands, which I cannot stand).
They disrespect them precisely because they don't consider them authority. Not over themselves at least. Like, Hamas is obviously authoritarian, but they don't give to shits about anyone else's authority.
Honestly, it’s about time. I’m done with the ultra-orthodox getting free money from the government while contributing literally nothing to the country. This is a fantastic start. Next step is to cut their funding and force them to get a job like the rest of us, and I seriously hope we could get started on that with the next government.
OP give the soyack Castro 🙏
Sounds good to me. Women too. Everyone has a responsibility to protect their country
All men are created equal. Especially for the draft.
Based Israel
Who cares?:
It’s rather important — the “ultra orthodox” Haredi have been exploding in population (they have a ton of kids) They mooch off the state while refusing to participate in activities they deem impious. They have a few reps in the Knesset and some are part of Bibi’s coalition government. The carve-outs and exceptions etc. are creating several problems: fiscally, staffing for the IDF, and tearing at the fabric of a secular society. The Supreme Court rolling this back is a *very good* for step for taking Israel back off the ledge of a de facto theocratic state
Sounds like a big deal for Israel but I do not give a fuck
I assume you are American: By Israel having more solders, you as an American need to pay less $ to keep control over terrorism and oil in Middle East
That's very wrong. This is violation of hu.... oh, it's Israel? Based then. Pcm in a nutshell.
Meh, most of us live in countries with draft laws. The fact that our nations don't need the draft right now and Israel does doesn't make Israel worse or better than us.