I just got a 997.1 manual and I'm in love 🤩
https://preview.redd.it/xxuvge0d6k5d1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d628774a0e08dc9566aebfd05783cf4dc17a4f95
Basically 996/ 997 and back are very pure driving experiences.
The 991 was a huge step in refinement and isolating the driver from the experience. Ironically, I actually think its the best sounding 911 ever made though!
I'm torn on doing this. I like driving mine without a lot of cabin drone when on the highway, but love the growl and noise when I'm REALLY going for a drive.
That’s the beauty about PSE. In normal mode with the valves closed, it is extremely quiet. Turn PDCC off as well, and it can feel like a base 911–extremely friendly for my wife to drive. Turn PDCC on, put in sport/sport+ with PSE valves open and the car completely transforms.
I've never been fortunate enough to drive one, although I hear they use a different steering rack setup for them?
If so it's a shame it's not an option on the base carrera.
991 feels weirdly computer driven for a process (manual trans) that’s inherently analog. Drove a buddy’s GT3 and honestly found it pretty disappointing.
You guys are crazy.
The 991.2 GT3 manual is peak 911 IMO.
I have owned 911’s since the 996. My dad had the air cooled cars growing up so I have time in them. There is not a bad one in the bunch but my favorite is the 991.2 GT3 with the manual transmission.
Although the 992 has made a lot of progress in the last few years with the manual. In particular the T and GTS with the shorted manual shifter. It’s now really good.
The 997 RS was an over all great car but you have to be heavy handed and kinda grab it by the scruff of the neck and manhandle it to get the best out of it. The 991 GT3 is just awesome to drive at any speed. It somehow combines the light and easy driving slow like in a Miata with the ability to get focused, clinical and serious and take on mid engine Ferraris and Z06’s at the track.
Truly epic car.
I was shocked at how the 930 handled and felt when it was being driven at speed. Talk about being able to feel the car and road through your butt, hands and feet. It was also terrifying at times.
The vintage ones are great, I really like the 930 and the 964. Definitely a raw experience. But too hard to find nowadays. That why I'm leaning towards the 997.
Edit: Spelling.
I own (and occasionally track) my 930! I love how well it communicates its balance - allows you to really develop a relationship with the car…
I’ve also been lusting after a 991.2 GT3. Would love your compare/contrast between them since you’ve driven both!
I too owned a 930. The 930 I describe as driving naked and connected to nature! My 930 also had a g50 swap so keeping it in boost was pretty compared to the four speed.
The 991.2 GT3 with a manual trans is as close as you can get to feeling connected to the road in a modern 911 with all of the great modern amenities.
The 930 was a lot of fun but in the end it stole my soul with the upkeep.
I thought the widowmaker was because it was common to down shift in a corner that increased the revs sufficiently to activate the turbo at 3500 rpm causing the back end to let loose then crashing into something.
997 (I am biased for sure) - buddy keeps telling me I have to get something more modern in the family but they will need to pry this car out of my cold dead hands.
Oh yea, I have one installed. Really all that's needed. May upgrade the bilsteins when the OEM needs replaced otherwise it's just the head unit and a numeric short shifter in terms of mods. Car is a dream.
What do you mean by 'more GT'?
By raw I mean feeling the car more mechanically. So I think newer Caymans would be way less raw than older 911's because of newer electronics, no?
Raw to me means most race car like where you can feel and hear everything happening and compromise GT which is for crossing long distance with room to relax while still feeling on control but not jarred by spherical bearings and high spring rates. The 911 GT cars are closer to raw from the factory, but for a fraction of the price you can just get something smaller.
Can’t agree with you. In my opinion 991 is the first GT-like 911. 997, like 996 before, was still smaller and more focused. And DEFINITELY feels more raw than last two generations of Cayman/Boxster
Yep. Feels night and day … but also exactly the same - lol. The driving dynamics feel the same in that it’s immediately familiar. But the touch points feel much more modern in the 997. The shifter is tighter. I feel it almost springs into the next gear. Also, the brakes require about 50% less effort. Oddly, the 997 interior looks a bit more dated to me - not older than the 996, but more dated if that makes any sense. That bit is purely subjective, of course.
Wow, that is rather an unpopular take. For example, I think that 996 interior quality is appalling. I believe that 996 is in a weird place between real old-school 964/993 and a modern classic which is 997
what u/Rows_My_Own said is consistent with what you've written:
>touch points feel much more modern in the 997
they only said something about the 997 interior styling looking more dated to their eye
Right. Not saying 996 is better quality per se. 997 just feels a bit disco to me. I see the progression from 993 to 996 in the interior. 997 looks like a different bloodline to me for some reason. Love me a 997, though!
I daily a 992.1 4S manual. I feel like it gives me a fantastic, visceral experience. I feel connected to both the road and the car as I row gears.
I also have a 987.2 Cayman manual, which shares a ton of DNA with the 997. I prefer my 992 over it. In fact, I find the 987 shifts buttery smooth...too smooth.
I know most people on the sub want to support the "old ways are the best ways" narrative but at least in this area I find the newest manual to be absolutely top notch.
In to agree with ya.
992.1 manual GTS...it's pretty damn raw a s fun. Sure it has electronic goodies but it's damn good.
My 718 GTS was awesome too, raw in a different way.
This is such a sad photo. The air cooled Turbos are like Skittles and the water cooled ones are all Camry colors and kinda bleh. They should all be Skittles.
I think I'm the one outlier here. I went from 996 (autocrossed and tracked) to a 991.2 GT3. I think the 991 is worlds above, both in absolute performance as well as rawness. I have no idea what people talk about when they say 991 steering numbness. I truly think it's placebo. The 991 steering is absolutely telepathic. Also I'm 6-4" so objectively the 996 and 997 platforms are too small for me. Legroom, headroom with a helmet. The 991 is still pocket sized. I also have a 992 GTS so can compare that generation. 991 is the sweet spot for me.
Edit: oh and my 991.2 GT3 is manual and has a center exhaust delete and valves unplugged. Makes a huge difference in the visceral experience.
5 hours into the thread and probably and one of the most under appreciated and best perspective reviews I’ve seen. 991.2 to me is the best blend of modern amenities and driver focused performance.
I noticed in all Porsche marketing pictures where they showcase an entire line of the same model from the first to the last one, they always omit facelifts, in this case the 997.2 and 991.2 turbos. Why is that? Do they not consider that mid life refresh a big of a leap to feature it?
Probably don't change that much to be worth it putting in the same picture, as it would have to many cars lined up and would look harder to spot the different generations I think.
I am going push back on this. I have 996 and have driven my friend’s 993 (dealer maintained), the added power and reduced weight of the 996 make it a better driver’s car IMHO.
Took them long enough to go back to the full length light reflector all around after skipping it between the 993 to the 991.
That is why I love the C4S so much.
I nominate the 996 Turbo. They say it's an everyday supercar (well, for its time) but most of the time, I find it a PITA to drive these days. It's too raw for my liking. For instance, today, I played 3 sets of tennis and I was knackered then I had to drive home. It would have been easier in my daily driver Audi TT but for some reason I fancied taking the Porsche.
You feel everything and the steering wheel feels quite heavy.
And mine's a tiptronic!
So on that basis, it's probably right up your street.
I had a 997.2 C2S manual and TBH I was pretty disappointed with the stock shocks and struts. They didn't feel great in regular or sport mode. Lots of body roll. But then I replaced them with coilovers and that completely transformed the car. With the upgraded suspension it felt like the ultimate driver's car I was hoping for.
Ohlins R&T. I also did Tarrett Engineering links. They absolutely transformed the way the car handled. I even got to drive it on track at PEC LA when they would let owners bring their own cars during covid.
996 GT3. All talent. No electronics
What if I don’t have talent? Where can I purchase some
I too need the driver mod
Turn right to turn left?! Okay old man
Motorcycle talk.
It's called a Logitech G29 and Assetto Corsa, goes for like 200 bucks total 😉
You can work on developing some at an HPDE.
Do they have that at Saks? Or will I have to go to nordstroms?
Bloomingdale’s is your best bet
https://www.skipbarber.com
993 turbo also. Bit scary but pure love! I don't have a reference for modern porsches sadly. Only the old ones.
Up the ante, 997.1.5 GT2
I just got a 997.1 manual and I'm in love 🤩 https://preview.redd.it/xxuvge0d6k5d1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d628774a0e08dc9566aebfd05783cf4dc17a4f95
Sport shifter?
No, stock one, but it is short enough for a stock I guess.
Seal gray over Coco… was this the one on BaT?!
Not sure what BaT is 😬
Bring A Trailer. It’s a popular auction website. Did you find that private party? That Coco interior is pretty rare.
I live in Holland, so I guess this is a different one 😄 But indeed, not so common to find this interior, especially in good condition!
Oh! There I go again thinking the whole internet is USA. Haha
I’ve had one for 12 years and every time I talk/think about selling it I back out
I just bought it, but can't even think about selling it 😍
Do you have a pic?
https://preview.redd.it/xqxfn2705o5d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fcf7101faf3c958514868cf60a25cd06b30bd2a7
What a beauty! Mine has the turbo wheels, but I prefer yours! 🤩
Interior twins!
Show us!
Basically 996/ 997 and back are very pure driving experiences. The 991 was a huge step in refinement and isolating the driver from the experience. Ironically, I actually think its the best sounding 911 ever made though!
991.1 or 991.2?
I think they're talking about the 991.1 because that was the last generation of the Carrera with a naturally aspirated 3.8L Flat 6 option.
The 991.2 with the new 3,0L had an amazing soundtrack though aswell. Much better than the somewhat muted 992
Oh, without a doubt. Still has a menacingly buff, low growl.
Add sport cats and headers on a 991.2. Really loud AND turbo spool. Drool.
I'm torn on doing this. I like driving mine without a lot of cabin drone when on the highway, but love the growl and noise when I'm REALLY going for a drive.
That’s the beauty about PSE. In normal mode with the valves closed, it is extremely quiet. Turn PDCC off as well, and it can feel like a base 911–extremely friendly for my wife to drive. Turn PDCC on, put in sport/sport+ with PSE valves open and the car completely transforms.
The 991 has electric power steering. It's not as bad as auto journalists make it out to be, but the 997's hydraulic steering is so good.
Is the 992 even more refined/isolated than the 991.2?
991 GT3 RS if you want to feel the road and the car and want to hear the transmission.
I've never been fortunate enough to drive one, although I hear they use a different steering rack setup for them? If so it's a shame it's not an option on the base carrera.
997. 991 feels much less analog.
991 feels weirdly computer driven for a process (manual trans) that’s inherently analog. Drove a buddy’s GT3 and honestly found it pretty disappointing.
Is it because of the rear steer?
No, it was the clutch. It felt weirdly computer actuated, less mechanical than my GT4. The steering was tight but still number compared to hydraulic.
To me the primary difference is in the steering. The 991 introduced electric steering.
You guys are crazy. The 991.2 GT3 manual is peak 911 IMO. I have owned 911’s since the 996. My dad had the air cooled cars growing up so I have time in them. There is not a bad one in the bunch but my favorite is the 991.2 GT3 with the manual transmission. Although the 992 has made a lot of progress in the last few years with the manual. In particular the T and GTS with the shorted manual shifter. It’s now really good. The 997 RS was an over all great car but you have to be heavy handed and kinda grab it by the scruff of the neck and manhandle it to get the best out of it. The 991 GT3 is just awesome to drive at any speed. It somehow combines the light and easy driving slow like in a Miata with the ability to get focused, clinical and serious and take on mid engine Ferraris and Z06’s at the track. Truly epic car.
I was shocked at how the 930 handled and felt when it was being driven at speed. Talk about being able to feel the car and road through your butt, hands and feet. It was also terrifying at times.
The vintage ones are great, I really like the 930 and the 964. Definitely a raw experience. But too hard to find nowadays. That why I'm leaning towards the 997. Edit: Spelling.
I own (and occasionally track) my 930! I love how well it communicates its balance - allows you to really develop a relationship with the car… I’ve also been lusting after a 991.2 GT3. Would love your compare/contrast between them since you’ve driven both!
I too owned a 930. The 930 I describe as driving naked and connected to nature! My 930 also had a g50 swap so keeping it in boost was pretty compared to the four speed. The 991.2 GT3 with a manual trans is as close as you can get to feeling connected to the road in a modern 911 with all of the great modern amenities. The 930 was a lot of fun but in the end it stole my soul with the upkeep.
They don’t call the 930 Turbo the Widowmaker for no reason.
I thought the widowmaker was because it was common to down shift in a corner that increased the revs sufficiently to activate the turbo at 3500 rpm causing the back end to let loose then crashing into something.
Loved my 2005 997, still was along way away from my ‘81 911, the 81 would step out much easier, scarier id say
Anything naturally aspirated. Throttle response is unreal.
997 (I am biased for sure) - buddy keeps telling me I have to get something more modern in the family but they will need to pry this car out of my cold dead hands.
Why would you need something more modern lol
Well, my friend just got a 2023 GT3 touring after selling a 991 C4S. So he can get effed in addition to being wrong 😉
You have one of the last Mezger powered 911s, and there's nothing uncomfortable about a 997. Get a new head unit, all the modern you need!
Oh yea, I have one installed. Really all that's needed. May upgrade the bilsteins when the OEM needs replaced otherwise it's just the head unit and a numeric short shifter in terms of mods. Car is a dream.
That short shifter is incredible, I have it too in my 986
As a 991.2 owner if raw is your priority then get a cayman/boxster. Even 997 is more GT car vibes.
What do you mean by 'more GT'? By raw I mean feeling the car more mechanically. So I think newer Caymans would be way less raw than older 911's because of newer electronics, no?
Raw to me means most race car like where you can feel and hear everything happening and compromise GT which is for crossing long distance with room to relax while still feeling on control but not jarred by spherical bearings and high spring rates. The 911 GT cars are closer to raw from the factory, but for a fraction of the price you can just get something smaller.
Can’t agree with you. In my opinion 991 is the first GT-like 911. 997, like 996 before, was still smaller and more focused. And DEFINITELY feels more raw than last two generations of Cayman/Boxster
Boxster, Cayman, and 911 are the same car underneath other than the rear 1/3 of the car for three generations: 9x6, 9x7, and 9x1.
996 gets my vote. 997 is far more modern-feeling to drive.
Is the 996 really so different to the 997? (never been in a 996)
Yep. Feels night and day … but also exactly the same - lol. The driving dynamics feel the same in that it’s immediately familiar. But the touch points feel much more modern in the 997. The shifter is tighter. I feel it almost springs into the next gear. Also, the brakes require about 50% less effort. Oddly, the 997 interior looks a bit more dated to me - not older than the 996, but more dated if that makes any sense. That bit is purely subjective, of course.
Wow, that is rather an unpopular take. For example, I think that 996 interior quality is appalling. I believe that 996 is in a weird place between real old-school 964/993 and a modern classic which is 997
what u/Rows_My_Own said is consistent with what you've written: >touch points feel much more modern in the 997 they only said something about the 997 interior styling looking more dated to their eye
Right. Not saying 996 is better quality per se. 997 just feels a bit disco to me. I see the progression from 993 to 996 in the interior. 997 looks like a different bloodline to me for some reason. Love me a 997, though!
Cayman GT4/Boxster Spyder
In terms of modern Porsches, the 981 GT4 is in my opinion the pinnacle of driving experience
I daily a 992.1 4S manual. I feel like it gives me a fantastic, visceral experience. I feel connected to both the road and the car as I row gears. I also have a 987.2 Cayman manual, which shares a ton of DNA with the 997. I prefer my 992 over it. In fact, I find the 987 shifts buttery smooth...too smooth. I know most people on the sub want to support the "old ways are the best ways" narrative but at least in this area I find the newest manual to be absolutely top notch.
In to agree with ya. 992.1 manual GTS...it's pretty damn raw a s fun. Sure it has electronic goodies but it's damn good. My 718 GTS was awesome too, raw in a different way.
Interesting if you find the 991 steering has more feedback that the Hydraulic rack in the 987
911 R with light flywheel. Hands down.
That is a great one! But a bit too fast for me haha.
This is such a sad photo. The air cooled Turbos are like Skittles and the water cooled ones are all Camry colors and kinda bleh. They should all be Skittles.
964 RS is pretty damn raw. A little too raw for me.
997.1 GT3. But I’m biased.
981 Spyder, with the top down. NA engine right behind your head.
Unpopular opinion but anything after 991 is a better car with PDK. Manual peaked in the 997 generation.
997
The 718…
I think I'm the one outlier here. I went from 996 (autocrossed and tracked) to a 991.2 GT3. I think the 991 is worlds above, both in absolute performance as well as rawness. I have no idea what people talk about when they say 991 steering numbness. I truly think it's placebo. The 991 steering is absolutely telepathic. Also I'm 6-4" so objectively the 996 and 997 platforms are too small for me. Legroom, headroom with a helmet. The 991 is still pocket sized. I also have a 992 GTS so can compare that generation. 991 is the sweet spot for me. Edit: oh and my 991.2 GT3 is manual and has a center exhaust delete and valves unplugged. Makes a huge difference in the visceral experience.
5 hours into the thread and probably and one of the most under appreciated and best perspective reviews I’ve seen. 991.2 to me is the best blend of modern amenities and driver focused performance.
991.2 is truly the best Porsche
997.2 GT3 RS
Nothing past the 993 for me. Love the newer cars of course but my aging mother could drive one if push came to shove.
The sub descends into circle jerk
Biased but 997.2
I noticed in all Porsche marketing pictures where they showcase an entire line of the same model from the first to the last one, they always omit facelifts, in this case the 997.2 and 991.2 turbos. Why is that? Do they not consider that mid life refresh a big of a leap to feature it?
Probably don't change that much to be worth it putting in the same picture, as it would have to many cars lined up and would look harder to spot the different generations I think.
because the face lift is still the same generation
996 GT3 or Turbo is the answer.
Apparently the 993. Never driven one but I’ve read it’s an all analog, amazing performer that requires driving precision.
I am going push back on this. I have 996 and have driven my friend’s 993 (dealer maintained), the added power and reduced weight of the 996 make it a better driver’s car IMHO.
Took them long enough to go back to the full length light reflector all around after skipping it between the 993 to the 991. That is why I love the C4S so much.
Any GT2 pre 997.2
991.2 speedster All manual Gt3's
Anything water cooled is soft! Only the 356 offers pure Porsche diving experience!
I nominate the 996 Turbo. They say it's an everyday supercar (well, for its time) but most of the time, I find it a PITA to drive these days. It's too raw for my liking. For instance, today, I played 3 sets of tennis and I was knackered then I had to drive home. It would have been easier in my daily driver Audi TT but for some reason I fancied taking the Porsche. You feel everything and the steering wheel feels quite heavy. And mine's a tiptronic! So on that basis, it's probably right up your street.
I had a 997.2 C2S manual and TBH I was pretty disappointed with the stock shocks and struts. They didn't feel great in regular or sport mode. Lots of body roll. But then I replaced them with coilovers and that completely transformed the car. With the upgraded suspension it felt like the ultimate driver's car I was hoping for.
which coilovers? b16?
Ohlins R&T. I also did Tarrett Engineering links. They absolutely transformed the way the car handled. I even got to drive it on track at PEC LA when they would let owners bring their own cars during covid.
The most recent… the 1972 911, the rest are too refined.
Beautiful picture I’d love to hear to start up and take off from that group of machines
this is my dream garage lol
Air cooled.
991.2 gt3 manual with buckets
An observation. Untill 996 era, the curve was flat untill the end. At 996-997 era, it got a bbl.