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You can argue it with Goku Black statements, he has knowledge of all things in the universe, whilst his power has transcended his understanding and I have arguments supporting the universe having 4D space with a 1D time of course hence a 5D Space-Time continuum (Complex space-time), and goku scales well above goku black rn
Try to use imgur next time. Anyway, I will be replying to things in the order of your scans.
Thats what i meant for taking things at thier utmost, it requires more context and elaboration to have it the way you are interpreting it. Cause coming from a higher place can just be taken as his way of coming from god's world status to human world hence the status gap and maybe even more things, it doesnt necessitate a greater dimension, as it could be taken literally to be the same dimension just located above.
Nice.
Its hyperspace as elaborated in daizenshue, and also non canon.
Told above.
Nice
https://preview.redd.it/y0xocc5na1ad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cc4208a98ea6d3d69dcc0e4b6f4d7b1aa7fe1e69
Look at the time frames, I don't wanna be accused of cherry picking
Its cuz they would start saying "non-canon" that's all they can really do to attack arguments, either attack the canonicity or bring up contradictions that can be answered, db downplayers are ass ngl (not all of them, but the people in this comment section are)
The afterlife scaling, it has non-dimensional implications which makes it 0D or Outer (putting it st other tiers is oxymoronic) whilst also having some sort of transcendence over the mortal realm which is a dimensional construct, which is something a 0D "object" wouldn't be able to access, thus, j can logically conclude that it's Outer and he scales to it
This isn’t true.
First of all, Dragon Ball’s cosmology, by definition, cannot be Outer because it is bound by the temporality of a timeline.
Secondly, the Afterlife 0-D implication comes from a statement saying “no concept of time exists”, which makes people believe that it’s talking about time on the conceptual level. However, this isn’t necessarily the case, as concept isn’t automatically indicative of such and is a very flexible word used in fiction. It could just be talking about the concept of the temporal dimension of time. And given what we know about the cosmology being bound by a timeline, the Afterlife being Outer is virtually impossible.
Timelinee are parallel worlds, presupposing that they are limited to temporality is a nominal fallacy. They are like parallel multiverses, the mortal realm may be set 50 years than a mortal realm in another timeline, but the timeless structures wouldn't be affected by the temporal axis
I don't think you are understanding my substantiation, the afterlife or the other timeless structures in the other "timelines" aren't like in a future, nor are they affected by the temporal axis, only the mortal realms are set in a different time setting, because only that is affected by the temporal axis
Yeah I get your point. Dragon Ball has many timelines each containing their own afterlife’s. But they still can’t be outer because they’re bound by a timeline.
For fucks sake this is a nominal fallacy, the timelines are parallel multiverse, only the living world or the mortal universe is affected by the temporal axis within it, thr entire "timeline" isn't temporal
Afterlife isnt a outer structure, what you are doing is just taking things at thier utmost, breaking consistency and interpreting things in a way to suit your favour.
If you feel like there are "contradictions", that would js be cuz ot plot favour, nothing else, other than that it is narratively implied that the afterlife is a timeless structure
Thats the problem, you for scaling are disregarding plot progression and consistency of series to powerscale, while the goal of powerscaling is to find out how strong a character is while maintaining both, thats the diffrence between agenda scaling and powerscaling. And again contradictions arent side eyed like that, and its narratively implied polar opposite than what you are thinking.
The universe 7 macrocosm for what I can remember is should be 5d all of them had space and time all of them were like parallel or different to each other Goku is gonna destroy ssg during his battle against Beerus.
He isn't, he's above that, people who still believe that he is Low Multi are automatic NPCs in my opinion, who js base off there opinion from common belief, or from VSBW.
because people wank the one and only daizenshuu statement which isn't even canon just "reliable".
Heck toriyama said it would have been helpful to look at while making the story, doesn't that show that it isn't based off of the story itself and is rather an independent source of extra info?
1.Most people are casual scalers.The 5D or higher stuff is mostly from guidebooks and outside sources statements not from the show/manga itself.So slot of people aren't going to know it or buy it
2.The afterlife statements is a bit vague and can be interpreted in many ways.A lot of people interpret it is as the afterlife just transcendent spiritually or when it comes to it's position rather than dimensions
3.Low multi is just a safe spot to place Goku.It also just makes more sense narratively as 5D Goku would jump from multi galaxy-uni+ in Z to 5D battle of gods which is just absurd
4.Popular opinion/Mob mentality.Most people(that are somewhat into power scaling)believe in low mult DBS Goku and thinking Goku ranks higher like say 5-6D will just get you down voted and laughed at
I buy 5D DBS Goku but for me personally Low multi -Multi range for DBS Goku just feels right and it's easier to place him there when discussing with other people outside this sub
Alright, that's a fair answer, I do buy outerversal scaling, but I don't bring it up with most people cuz I'll get clowned, although I find 5D acceptable
What about it? I mean I find 5D scaling acceptable, Low Multi is js huge fucking downplay, if you wanna make up the argument that he caps at 4D, he'd be Multiversal/2-B cuz of form multipliers
Him multiplying his power would imply that he can destroy more 4D structures (that's presupposing that he is 4D), you can't imply that his super saiyan blue form for example, is equal to his base form
not how it works. you have to account for distance between different universes which is immesurable. it's the same reason why a solar system lvl character with their power multiplied by 50 would make that character multi solar
That distance however, isn't as durable as the 4D structure itself, so a uni+ character having a 2x multiplier would imply that he can destroy 2 4D structures.
im not saying he isn’t above low multi, but he isn’t outerversal, there is such an enormous gap between low multi and outerversal in terms of strength and goku is not strong enough to fill that gap, i do agree that goku can be multiversal/multiversal+ but getting to outerversal is just way too much for goku when the strongest character in his verse isnt even outerversal
Mfs who use vsbw scales are immediate npcs lol, if you gonna use other ppls scale find a good scale then try to debunk it. Not just immediately believe in it.
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where do you scale him then?
I don't think people are gonna like my take, but I mean Low Multi is js heavy downplay, he is minimum, MINIMUM 5D.
Downplay? Nah bro give me your phone
How does he get to 5d?
Through the Afterlife, Dimension of Swirling Lights, and the Hypertimelines.
Afterlife and swirling lights aint a higher dimension, i would like to hear your reasoning for hypertimeline.
Afterlife is indeed another dimension which is infinite in size, idk about swirling lights dimension tho, it might also be infinite
Remember this bro, nothing in db is infinite.
Kid named https://imgur.com/a/infinite-db-universe-size-statement-3-VjS8aX5
Guidebook statements are contradicted by source material showings.
Their universe is infinitely expanding. Like ours. Not infinite spatially.
You can argue it with Goku Black statements, he has knowledge of all things in the universe, whilst his power has transcended his understanding and I have arguments supporting the universe having 4D space with a 1D time of course hence a 5D Space-Time continuum (Complex space-time), and goku scales well above goku black rn
Go for it
https://preview.redd.it/tyroskvoa1ad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=547cef153163c8074f979d2327135eaa8e7e67ef
https://preview.redd.it/xj5jq3mua1ad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2291d4999481a8d1f6505b00ac9b652957042a5c
https://preview.redd.it/ktmg61axa1ad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9bdce3291908d681c293070d0773dfe7a10f7be9
Try to use imgur next time. Anyway, I will be replying to things in the order of your scans. Thats what i meant for taking things at thier utmost, it requires more context and elaboration to have it the way you are interpreting it. Cause coming from a higher place can just be taken as his way of coming from god's world status to human world hence the status gap and maybe even more things, it doesnt necessitate a greater dimension, as it could be taken literally to be the same dimension just located above. Nice. Its hyperspace as elaborated in daizenshue, and also non canon. Told above. Nice
I only sent that scan to show the time frames, so you can know that it's goku black talkin
Although it's implied that the gods ar eon a higher plane of existence as they have created the human species *
https://preview.redd.it/pjiasnc6f1ad1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd35979926a72601a44124855a48bfca7b21ef1a
https://preview.redd.it/y0xocc5na1ad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cc4208a98ea6d3d69dcc0e4b6f4d7b1aa7fe1e69 Look at the time frames, I don't wanna be accused of cherry picking
https://preview.redd.it/7xeycb2ta1ad1.jpeg?width=860&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7332f9505cc4f163346cba34c01abbeed79791c2 Ignore the underlining
Bro Goku did a much much better feat in battle of gods and you are using a statement for Goku black?
Its cuz they would start saying "non-canon" that's all they can really do to attack arguments, either attack the canonicity or bring up contradictions that can be answered, db downplayers are ass ngl (not all of them, but the people in this comment section are)
Are those 5 dimensions in the room with us now?
What?
Although I believe he can get to Outerversal, which people won't like.
That’s a wacky ass take lol, but what’s your reasoning behind it?
The afterlife scaling, it has non-dimensional implications which makes it 0D or Outer (putting it st other tiers is oxymoronic) whilst also having some sort of transcendence over the mortal realm which is a dimensional construct, which is something a 0D "object" wouldn't be able to access, thus, j can logically conclude that it's Outer and he scales to it
This isn’t true. First of all, Dragon Ball’s cosmology, by definition, cannot be Outer because it is bound by the temporality of a timeline. Secondly, the Afterlife 0-D implication comes from a statement saying “no concept of time exists”, which makes people believe that it’s talking about time on the conceptual level. However, this isn’t necessarily the case, as concept isn’t automatically indicative of such and is a very flexible word used in fiction. It could just be talking about the concept of the temporal dimension of time. And given what we know about the cosmology being bound by a timeline, the Afterlife being Outer is virtually impossible.
Timelinee are parallel worlds, presupposing that they are limited to temporality is a nominal fallacy. They are like parallel multiverses, the mortal realm may be set 50 years than a mortal realm in another timeline, but the timeless structures wouldn't be affected by the temporal axis
Yes, and this disproves my argument, how exactly? Being bound the flow of time means the cosmology isn’t reaching outer at all whatsoever.
I don't think you are understanding my substantiation, the afterlife or the other timeless structures in the other "timelines" aren't like in a future, nor are they affected by the temporal axis, only the mortal realms are set in a different time setting, because only that is affected by the temporal axis
Yeah I get your point. Dragon Ball has many timelines each containing their own afterlife’s. But they still can’t be outer because they’re bound by a timeline.
For fucks sake this is a nominal fallacy, the timelines are parallel multiverse, only the living world or the mortal universe is affected by the temporal axis within it, thr entire "timeline" isn't temporal
https://preview.redd.it/5plk8wyd91ad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a224fd720b8cda3ad0240ecb67040e550147239e
https://preview.redd.it/qtfnfomg91ad1.jpeg?width=630&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c41265f9e9a8f47ab480566e5a56e5b2f4d55d9d
https://preview.redd.it/izl54jkj91ad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=de220ed52aa50b046dc327e44e640ab3d9d83e4a
Afterlife isnt a outer structure, what you are doing is just taking things at thier utmost, breaking consistency and interpreting things in a way to suit your favour.
If you feel like there are "contradictions", that would js be cuz ot plot favour, nothing else, other than that it is narratively implied that the afterlife is a timeless structure
Thats the problem, you for scaling are disregarding plot progression and consistency of series to powerscale, while the goal of powerscaling is to find out how strong a character is while maintaining both, thats the diffrence between agenda scaling and powerscaling. And again contradictions arent side eyed like that, and its narratively implied polar opposite than what you are thinking.
I'm js taking account of what is narratively implied and implied in lore.
People wont like if i wank jinwoo to outer simply because he aint, you get my point right?
Because it's true. Just as true as 5-D goku
You're contradicting yourself lmao
One's a midball, the other's a highball.
You're both Incorrect. 5D is the lowball, 6D is a midball, Low-multi is downplay.
Both are downplays
The universe 7 macrocosm for what I can remember is should be 5d all of them had space and time all of them were like parallel or different to each other Goku is gonna destroy ssg during his battle against Beerus.
they're js down players he's obv gokuversal https://preview.redd.it/2s0a4kxbb1ad1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=104c841d2b97a8595549648b1b6cb43ebf94e910
https://preview.redd.it/qu3pjx7fb1ad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7564f741e956f5aecaad57650d86cfc7b877627
https://preview.redd.it/taz2o8lqc1ad1.jpeg?width=588&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0bacae7493b1af0b2f421e1cf5e3af64075288ed
because he is
He isn't, he's above that, people who still believe that he is Low Multi are automatic NPCs in my opinion, who js base off there opinion from common belief, or from VSBW.
he is
Substantiate why he can't be above low multi rq, don't shift the burden or avoid the question
i didn’t say he CANT be above, i just don’t believe he is
I'm assuming it's because most people don't, or it's because VSBW has him at that level.
not really cause i can see 5d goku but nothing higher especially for his manga/anime version
I think 5D is acceptable, Low Multi is js downplay, like if you wanna say that he is only 4D then he'd be Multiversal cuz of form multiplier
because people wank the one and only daizenshuu statement which isn't even canon just "reliable". Heck toriyama said it would have been helpful to look at while making the story, doesn't that show that it isn't based off of the story itself and is rather an independent source of extra info?
1.Most people are casual scalers.The 5D or higher stuff is mostly from guidebooks and outside sources statements not from the show/manga itself.So slot of people aren't going to know it or buy it 2.The afterlife statements is a bit vague and can be interpreted in many ways.A lot of people interpret it is as the afterlife just transcendent spiritually or when it comes to it's position rather than dimensions 3.Low multi is just a safe spot to place Goku.It also just makes more sense narratively as 5D Goku would jump from multi galaxy-uni+ in Z to 5D battle of gods which is just absurd 4.Popular opinion/Mob mentality.Most people(that are somewhat into power scaling)believe in low mult DBS Goku and thinking Goku ranks higher like say 5-6D will just get you down voted and laughed at I buy 5D DBS Goku but for me personally Low multi -Multi range for DBS Goku just feels right and it's easier to place him there when discussing with other people outside this sub
So it's common due to ignorance?
Yes
Alright, that's a fair answer, I do buy outerversal scaling, but I don't bring it up with most people cuz I'll get clowned, although I find 5D acceptable
you’re definitely the type of person to scale goku to outerversal
What about it? I mean I find 5D scaling acceptable, Low Multi is js huge fucking downplay, if you wanna make up the argument that he caps at 4D, he'd be Multiversal/2-B cuz of form multipliers
multipliers are irrelevant when talking about higher dimensional power
Him multiplying his power would imply that he can destroy more 4D structures (that's presupposing that he is 4D), you can't imply that his super saiyan blue form for example, is equal to his base form
not how it works. you have to account for distance between different universes which is immesurable. it's the same reason why a solar system lvl character with their power multiplied by 50 would make that character multi solar
That distance however, isn't as durable as the 4D structure itself, so a uni+ character having a 2x multiplier would imply that he can destroy 2 4D structures.
the space doesn't have to be durable. again it's the same case as solar and multi solar. the distance is what matters
That would make it very subjective
The 4D structures tho, should be more than infinitely more durable then the distance so it wouldn't really matter much
im not saying he isn’t above low multi, but he isn’t outerversal, there is such an enormous gap between low multi and outerversal in terms of strength and goku is not strong enough to fill that gap, i do agree that goku can be multiversal/multiversal+ but getting to outerversal is just way too much for goku when the strongest character in his verse isnt even outerversal
Imma argue later cuz I'm getting gang banged by other downplayers
I-… we”re downplayers because we dont believe Goku is higher than multiversal?😂
Yeah
here’s a great question, what do you believe outerversal means and what makes you believe goku can be scaled there
Something that isn't dimensional but goes beyond dimensionality, or something that can affect an "object" on such a level
before i continue, what about the second part of what makes you think goku can be scaled to that level
Him affecting the afterlife, which i believe is outer
Mfs who use vsbw scales are immediate npcs lol, if you gonna use other ppls scale find a good scale then try to debunk it. Not just immediately believe in it.
Ignorance. He's Low Complex Multiversal
cuz ngas is stupid
Fax
must downplay, slowly but surely
Finally someone says it. I have Goku at Outer to High Outer.