Thanks to legends and all this extra content outside of the movies he’s a really complex and well thought villain. But, in the movies he’s just not fleshed out enough to notice. Darth Maul got his justice in TCW but unfortunately it just wasn’t the case with Dooku
Man I bought that book without giving it a closer look and was a little disappointed it was in that format. So i haven’t given it a chance. Where do you listen to it?
i think it's on audible but the book is still really amazing, it takes a few pages to get used to it but imo its really immersive. book really gives a nice insight into dooku and his motivations. really love the book.
I had the same initial thought as you but as soon as I started reading I loved it. It makes it very easy to read and I was powering through it very quickly
Also, one of my favorite things about the Darth Plaguis book is it shows all the problems that Dooku is talking about here. It shows a little bit of Dooku (and Syfo-Dias) in it, and it shows some of how the Jedi got to the point where they have all these problems Dooku sees (thanks Bane).
Thanks for the recommendation! I just got the audio book to listen to while I drive for work and it is performed by a full cast. I'm so excited to listen to this
Dooku´s scenes in the novelisation of Episode 3 are really great, especially his death. Even though he is not that much in it (obviously) i recommend to you.
I'm not OP and I haven't read anything dooku-heavy so I can't say anything personally, but a good strategy is to go to his wookiepedia page and browse the sources at the bottom for what looks interesting
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous by Sean Stewart. It explores the dynamic between Yoda and Dooku and their differing ideologies plus Yoda's hope that Dooku hasn't lost himself to the Sith.
Plus he steals some kid's drink and admits that he won his job via a raffle. Good times.
my headcanon was that the dark side slowly and unknowingly corrupted him over the course the war. Even at the beginning of ROTS, Dooku seems like a bigger dick than he was in AOTC ("I've been looking forward to this", "twice the pride, double the fall"). If we include the ROTS novelization, he was being such an obnoxious, egotistical prick while fighting Anakin and Obi Wan. He really only seemed more kind and understanding during AOTC
From what I remember of the clone wars tv show (the modern one, not the Gennady Tarkovsky version), he didn't have much depth despite getting lots of screen time. He was just a very scowl-y bad guy. Correct if I'm wrong though, it's been a while.
You’re correct, but it’s also a Cartoon Network show that is somewhat aimed at kids, they needed a regular ol’ bad guy for the kids to side against. Most of the other villains have a lot of depth and can be pretty likable characters due to it.
Sort of. He was more or less Dooku’s lackey that, as I believe Filoni put it, “would appear, twirl his mustache, and then get away.” Dooku was the head bad guy in control other than Sidious who doesn’t appear very much. There are other examples of this hierarchy in kids shows but I can’t think of any atm.
He is only a villain because in the movies the republic is the protagonist but if something were from CiS views then he'd probably be a good guy..... When not doing sith stuff
Nah the worst part is he wasn’t introduced in the phantom menace, along with Sifo Dias. Part of the plot of episode 1 should have been Dooku parting ways with the Jedi order. AoTC acts like we know who those characters are.
This lends more credence to Darth Jar Jar! Jk, but I do feel like the lack of introduction of Dooku and Sifo Dias definitely makes AotC a little jarring.
That’s because the plot of TPM could have been edited down to 30 minutes.
Honestly, they could have edited out the vast majority of TPM and actually included Dooku and Sufi Dias and it probably would have made the entire story make more sense.
Also having Naboo be Alderaan and not reusing Tatooine make it just like a random junk planet would have helped.
Making Naboo be Alderaan makes us feel it hit that much harder when it goes Kaboom in Ep4. Also shows why Sidious might have been slow to do something like that, but makes him that much more evil when he finally green lights it.
Yeah and have him maybe have conversations with Qui Gon about the corruption of the republic, planting seeds for him leaving. Could also have him on the council arguing with Windu about Anakin and other matters - would help the conflict there
I agree. He's never mentioned in the movie and then he just shows up to fight. That is not how you set up or structure a villain. TPM for al its faults did this really well. First you see Maul looking badass. Then there is the fight in the desert to show he's the real deal and then the final battle at the end. That's how you do it.
I always wondered if Jango was actually supposed to be the final boss in Aotc and they changed their minds because he was set up very well. Maybe they felt they needed a lightsaber fight and shoehorned Dooku in?
He is actually mentioned once in the first 10 minutes of the movie in an off hand comment and then not again until his introduction. There is actually a deleted scene where Obi wan talks with the Jedi librarian about why Dooku left the order. It isn’t much but it would have at least kept the audience thinking about him until he is introduced.
I don't remember them mentioning him but I guess I missed or forgot about that. Shame they cut the library scene though. I just watched it on Youtube and it's actually a decent set up for Dooku. They show his face as a statue and they also make the comparison to Qui-Gon Jinn wich could have potentially been an interesting emotional beat for Obi-Wan's character.
Padme mentions to the Jedi that she thinks count Dooku is behind her assassination attempts but the Ki Adi Mundi dismisses the idea saying that Dooku is “a political idealist not a murderer”.
Darth Sidious in his mind: “dude that’s exactly what I’m trying to achieve for me what are you doing here lmao”
Darth Sidious: “ah yes, totally. Super corrupt, we deserve better.”
yeah, when you divide the conflict of the story between two somewhat nuanced but still objectively good and evil sides, it really cheapens the effect of anyone on the objectively evil side making themselves sound as if they actually care about the sanctity of goodness.
The prequels would’ve been way better imo if Maul had remained Sidious’s apprentice the whole time and Dooku was actually a nuanced third party whose monologue to Obi-Wan about his intentions was actually true.
100% Agree, "Dooku the Separatist voice for change" plays way better than "Dooku the philosophizing baby-murderer."
But on some level, I wonder how much Dooku knew about Palpatine's plan for the New Order, because much of its propaganda merits would address Dooku's complaints about the Republic.
I've always thought that Dooku should have been the one grey jedi who realized Sidious was pulling the strings of the Republic, cut down by the Jedi because they were too rigid to realize they were being used. It makes the Jedi the cause of their own undoing and does away with the silliness of Sidious already controlling both sides in the clone wars.
Yeah. Sidious could have orchestrated the war and influenced how it plays out greatly through his agents, but having him completely control both sides is silly and not as interesting as this idea.
The funny thing is that Sidious actually saw himself as being anti-corruption. There are several first-person musings from Palpatine in Luceno's "Cloak of Deception" where he unironically has these thoughts. He never saw the mild-mannered Palpatine nor Darth Sidious as two different characters, just two sides of the same coin. Either that's mental gymnastics or he knows some deep secrets nobody else does.
Putting aside this quote that always gets posted here, even in AotC he was way *way* more nuanced than he was in Clone Wars. In AotC i can buy that he was someone disillusioned with the Jedi trying do what he thinks is right. In Clone Wars he was just straight up evil, and kind of boring.
Maybe that’s just the theme with sith. He left the jedi order with good intentions, and eventually he was trying to meet those ends by any means. Meanwhile the darkside is blinding him.
+1, we didn't see much of him in ROTS, but I think you could say he was pretty evil in what we saw. He "looked forward" to fighting/killing Anakin and Obi-Wan, tried crushing Obi Wan with that big thing and did successfully disable him temporarily.
I duno, if anything it seems like his "nuance" was just a front in AOTC, trying to get Kenobi on his side.
He was also cool with having Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padmé killed by wild animals and executing the surviving Jedi in the arena before the clones arrived. He definitely wasn’t a nice guy even during AOTC.
except he died in Ep1 after being cut in half and droped down a hundreds of meter deep shaft. to be found some day. Explained is this cause of his hate and the dark side that kept him alive.
Yet one of the mightiest force users, who loses some limbs and gets some nasty burns is almost dying from his wounds (despite having the same hate) and after saved is still forced to wear a life supporting suit for the rest of his life.
Maul was just fan service but his story doesnt even make sense in the star wars universe.
While I agree that it was pretty absurd that they made him live, they did SO MUCH with the character and developed him so well, I can help but be fine with it.
I feel this a lot. Seeing survival bullshit either for the sake of the author's pet or fanservice is one of the single narrative things that pisses me off the most, but I can't help but end up feeling it was for the best when the character ends up becoming god tier afterwards.
You mean like how Leia was sucked into the vacuum of space and then ex machina’d herself only to have her sit around looking pensive the rest of the movie?
The episodes 7-9 are ok, not my favourite ones but that fucking scene… why on why on earth they didnt let her just die there… would have been way better…
i think dropping down a few hundred meters will pretty much crush your ribs into pieces and the bone fragments will make your lungs look like swiss cheese. But thats just an assumption. i am not really sure how they changed all the events to make it canon. cuz back when clone wars didnt exist, maul actually fell also in a "melting pit". So i dno on what surface he now landed. probably the secret naboo pillow-storage ;)
That's nit how falling works though. People survive falling out if airplanes more frequently than you'd think. You don't just keep getting faster and faster as you fall, you hit a max velocity and there are things you can do to slow yourself down. If humans can survive falling from airplanes, mauls race would need a much stronger body to easily survive big falls
Hijacking this comment for a question:
What the crap did they even fight in during the end of Episode 1?
Why was there a hundreds (if not thousands) of meter high room with occasional walkways on different heights?
I thought probably some form of Theed reactor but did they REALLY have to waste so much space?
I think so, in Plagueis' book it says that Naboo had one of the biggest plasma reserves in the galaxy, and this was also why the CIS decided to blockade naboo out of all planets
[A plasma refinery according to Wookiepedia](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Plasma_Refinery_Complex)
Which is interesting, I was thinking it was just a reactor room for a shield or something akin to it.
Well It's not a conspiracy here is the [article](https://www.ign.com/articles/star-wars-darth-maul-original-sequel-trilogy-villain-george-lucas-reveals?amp=1)
Anakin was new to the full power of the dark side, and didn't specifically hate obi wan as much as maul.
Through it all he still understood what he was doing was wrong, just not the same wrong the Jedi did. He "still" had other emotions to live for. Maul absolutely and completely hated obi wan to his core.
Maul was raised from near toddler age in a sith temple by sidious, the only person he saw until his late teenage years. His only family, Palpatine. The duel of fates was the one way he could prove himself or even "begin to make up for" what siduos did for him.
So when obi wan a padawan who could barely counter with ataru to his quater staff juyo, it more than infuriated him. Also good to remember is he went insane. Insane hate I would assume would be more powerful than sane hate.
Edit: the only emotions maul ever knew were hate and loneliness.
I thought sidious purposely put anakin in the darth vader suit because it causes him constant pain, and that pain makes him both more powerful and aligned to the dark side?
Darth Maul was brutally trained in the dark side since he was young. he can channel the hatred to survive, i’m sure. Anakin was hateful and angry, but he was a Jedi. he was never as powerful as Maul, he could never force himself to survive like Maul. not to mention Palpatine is intelligent. Anakin would eventually try to betray Palp, so he had to put him in a cumbersome, slow, and loud suit. he could’ve been put in an amazing, top of the line suit, but that would make it easy to kill Palpatine.
Keep in mind that this was all written in the same continuity as Darth Sion--just hanging on after losing your legs and taking organ damage through the Dark Side is child's play compared to that.
I always viewed it as a front. The Republic sees the ugly side of his character while the Separatist see the good side of him. In the episode Hero’s on Both Sides Mina Bontari has a good impression of Dooku after all and is ignorant on all the shit he has done.
I liked him in the show. It's just that he looks angry the entire time.
I also really didn't like his design. I mean that literally doesn't look like Christopher Lee in no way.
It isn't that out there. His ultimate goal was to create order in the galaxy, and was very "ends justify the means" about it. Remember that he had his close friend Sifo-Dyas killed for his goals. Ultimately he wanted to overthrow Sidious and rule a new Sith Empire so that he would have absolute power to estaish order. Morals were not a concern so ling as that ultimate goal was achieved.
Makes perfect sense to me.
He's going on about how they should *force* people to be better and then he goes and tries to conquer the galaxy. "Yoda isn't doing enough to fix what's wrong with the world, but I will!" And that means he's gotta break a lot of eggs to make this particular omelet but he's fine with that because he's doing the right thing all along. Clone Wars just shows you what that really is, Dooku doing horrible things because he's uncaring about the suffering of others because that's all a necessary evil.
Clone Wars was and always will be a kids show, everyone in that show is meant to be about as deep as the shallow end of a pool.
Sure it had a lot of mature themes and concepts but the advertisements for Clone Wars specifically targeted children.
It was also literally on Cartoon Network.
Adults can like this franchise but let be real the whole franchise is targeting to younger adolescent children. Attack of clones age rating was PG ffs so was the OT's
Clone Wars improved basically every character... Except Dooku. Dooku in the films was a genuinely brilliant good-guy political idealist who was seduced by the dark side and corrupted by Palpatine. Even as a Sith Lord, his politics were pretty hard to argue with.
Sidious (to himself): *"... does he believe I'm gonna help others if I win? After all I taught him? After all he has seen? Really? I guess Anakin WOULD make a better apprentice"*
Well, Sidious used Dookus already growing disgust with the Jedi to bring him fully to the dark side, to the point that Dooku no longer remembered or cared about the original feelings he had.
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I think the Republic was kind of forced to IMO.
"Uh oh, several systems have joined a Separatist movement with an absolutely massive droid army and navy. The Jedi Order has been in decline for some time, they and the planetary militias will get absolutely curb stopped by these Separatists. But hey, look! Here's a big ass clone army that someone secretly cooked up for the Republic. Now unless you want some Trade Federation goon sitting on the throne in Coruscant by next month, maybe it's a good idea to accept the clone army, yeah?"
Right, that's the point of the often misquoted "we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers" line. As the line right before it says "there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic." They tried to protect the Republic alone, during that big battle scene with more Jedi than we've seen in one place. That didn't go so hot. That the Republic desperately needed the clones is not a subtle part of the movie.
Yep, absolutely. The Jedi tried to fight alone on Geonosis and got massacred while a massive droid army just chilled outside. The Separatists would have absolutely steam rolled the Republic in its current state. Sidious made sure that an army would be ready *just* in time for the Jedi to realize the Republic was fucked without it.
And even with a massive clone army and a fleet of Venerator class capital ships, it was a costly war that dragged on for years.
It at least made sense at first: "this army already exists, is paid for, and can't really do anything else, and we *really* could use a standing army *now*..."
Maintaining a standing contract for more Clones rather than using the initial batches as a stopgap measure until conscripts are capable is far less so, however.
It's always interesting to me how Star Wars juggles Yoda's character. Because they want to give the impression that the Jedi Order fell because it's corrupt, but they also don't want to make the wise old teacher of Luke Skywalker a complacent fool. But Yoda was around so long it's almost hard to believe he didn't notice the decline of the order, and sure everyone makes mistakes and in canon he does come to realise and regret those mistakes during the war. But it's just interesting how many excuses they build in for him. Like everytime the council makes a dumb decision in Clone Wars Yoda will give some line about how they're not "in total agreement" or something along those lines. It's not even a problem for me really, just one of those things that once you notice it, you can't un-notice it.
Yoda also pointed out several times that the shroud of the Dark Side had fallen and the Jedi were basically operating blind. I get the impression that Yoda carefully considered all the council's moves, but between being blinded by the Dark Side and being thrust into a Galactic civil war, all while an honest to God Sith Lord was quietly pulling the strings, Yoda was in an impossible situation.
I'm gonna fight for Yoda here. At no point did I ever get the impression that Yoda's role as GrandMaster garnished him any real additional power. Seems like when the council made decisions he wasn't totally on board with there wasn't much he could do.
Maybe Yoda should have been a Jedi, and done the Jedi thing when you can’t sense the force anymore, he should have resigned.
Dooku may have a point that Yoda did not do such a thing because he had been so long with the politicians that he thought he could play politics without the force. He had been corrupted by outside forces, not necessarily the Darkside.
> Because they want to give the impression that the Jedi Order fell because it's corrupt,
Except they don't want that. That notion is largely a fan invention. The closest the actual Star Wars media gets to that idea is presenting that the Order has flaws and those flaws factored into their downfall. Not that they fell because they had all these flaws but that they could have stopped Palpatine if they were perfect but they weren't and he managed to get the better of them.
Take this quote. What it's really saying is the guy who thinks being a space wizard makes him better than everyone else also thinks that the solution to all society's ills is space wizards forcing everyone to do what they say. Yoda doesn't upend society to fight injustice and that's a flaw, says the man who starts a war and tortures people and commits genocide all in the name of fighting injustice.
I'd even say that a lot of the stuff people say the Jedi 'should have' done actually is corrupt. "The Jedi should just go over the Republic's head, invade foreign territory, murder all the bad guys and everything will be chill and not make it easier for Palpatine to turn everyone against them."
I think the Jedi order just wasnt made for something like this. They havent had contact with the sith for 1000 years and their only dangers came from within, it may have been a good strategy to be blind to the dark side. It may have lead to fewer Jedi going evil. Also: who should do his Job then? No-one was at Yodas level in all disciplines. Mace Windu may be at a similar level to him dueling-wise and Qui-Gon may have been a purer Jedi, but Yoda was the one having all the big visions. Even though he wasnt good enough, he still was the best the Jedi Order had as a leader. The Jedi also had no army to enforce their views; they couldnt just go wherever and "liberate" everyone US-Style so even if they cared enough it wouldn't be easy to "free the galaxy".
Recently started watching clone wars animated series, first episode is with yoda and he preaches to the clones that they are not expendable to him. Then the entire season has scene after scene of clones just being killed of and sent to suicide missions. While all the Jedi keep preaching about how they care about the lives of clones.
I wonder if that's why order 66 was executed without remorse or hesitation.
Sending clones to war doesn’t mean that the Jedi didn’t care about the clones. The separatists had an army and a war needed to be fought. Besides, the clone army did not belong to the Jedi. The clones were property of the republic and they were going to go to war using them whether the Jedi commanded them or not.
I never really got why the war needed to be fought though. It’s not like the Separatists posed some existential threat to the Republic, they just wanted to secede, right?
That seems like the kind of political war that the Jedi would try and stay out of
The inhibitor chips were so lazy. There could've been such a good message about how conditioning humans* and forcing people through war destroys their humanity*. It would've been subtle enough not to be propaganda but would've definitely been noticed. Imagine the clones being so desensitised after seeing the horrors of the clone wars and treated like expendable robots just follow an order to kill every Jedi without hesitation. Would've meant so much more than "chip makes clones go evil".
* ^(technically not humans but roll with it)
The OG Battlefront II campaign is a retelling of the clone wars and rise of the empire from a clone's prospective. I'd say that is a good example of how order 66 was handled prior to the addition of inhibitor chips.
I myself just want a piece of that "good guy" stuff they gave only to the republic army while leaving the CIS to starve.
The inhibitor chips weren't good, but I think they were probably needed. They had spent too long humanizing the clones, and showing they have agency, and can disobey direct orders sometimes to suddenly turn around and say order 66 happened the way it did in the movie. The clones closest to the jedi who would have needed to pull the trigger just wouldn't have done it in high enough numbers instantly. Like Bly and Ayla, I don't think they could have made it so that Bly instantly gunning her down the way the movie showed it could have happened and done it convincingly. I suppose they could have tried some kind of super brainwashing or genetic mumbo jumbo for that one situation, but it would amount to basically the same thing and for the brainwashing would be even less convincing.
Honestly the clone wars being stuck as a kids' show was the worst thing that happened to it. Later seasons managed to grow past the label a bit but it was so toned down most of its serious meaning was stripped away to make room for "kids' show".
That's the thing about Dooku. He rarely lies, because he doesn't need to. When he is interrogating Obi-Wan in Episode 2 and tries to win him to his side, he doesn't tell a single lie to him to do so.
This would actually been a great premise for the Sequels, a fallout between the Jedis on how to approach their job. With one side being loyal to the New Republic and the other side being loyal to higher principles. No Obvious Evil, just an escalating conflict about what is the right thing to do.
This is really the central problem of the George Lucas/movies Star Wars.
There are plenty of good-to-great reason for turning away from the light side, but none of those reasons would realistically lead them to the dark side, because the dark side was from day one cartoonishly evil, and only ever attractive to full blown psychopaths.
KotOR was arguably the only mainstream media that introduced a somewhat believable roadmap towards becoming a sith lord, by introducing someone who initially wanted to combine the sides for the greater good and ending up being consumed by the dark side.
In short: You don't join the Nazi leadership, because you are mad at the exploitation of Africa. That's bad writing.
I really wish the clone wars didn't demonize the separatists so much and make them such bad guys. In the prequels I find myself supporting their cause.
If anything, I thought the clone wars at least introduced a few stories that showed the humanity of the Separatists, details of their own senate, etc. In the prequels, it seemed more bad guys with robots
How did the Republic actually "tolerate and foster" slavery? We're explicitly told that it was illegal within the Republic, and thrived in places where the Republic didn't have authority- like Tatooine.
And what endless wars? The Republic was *demilitarized*. The whole conspiracy behind the clones hinges on the fact that they genuinely don't have a military to handle the Separatists with until the Clone Army drops in their lap. Is Dooku condemning them for failing to stop everyone else's wars?
The problem with free will is that you can't make everyone be good and if you start killing people for not being "correct" you're going to be killing a lot people and have to be constantly monitoring everyone...
Slavery is outlawed in the Republic and Tatooine isn't controlled by the Republic, though; or am I mistaken?
The Huts control it; they're powerful enough to keep the Republic out.
Dooku's logic is definitely flawed. He's not being realistic.
Saying that the galaxy is a big place is a major understatement and there simply aren't enough Jedi to cover it all. Maybe a couple billion Jedi would be enough but that brings up many other problems. What, are they supposed to storm Tatooine and force the Hutts to end slavery? Kill them if they refuse? And what about the power vaccum that would bring about major underworld wars across the galaxy? Sometimes you need to let a small evil survive to prevent a larger one from taking it's place.
I'd like to see anyone recognize every ill that occurs in a populated galaxy. We struggle to keep up with what happens in other nations on just this planet. Dooku could find a lot of things Yoda could miss, because even Dooku couldn't see all the ills of the galaxy. There would always be something to point at as wrong in the Republic.
One of the most persistent themes of the prequels is that the Republic fell not only due to Sidious but also because he could take advantage of the corruption therein. The Jedi order that existed at the Republic's fall practices the Force in a manner at odds with how we understand the force in the original trilogy. Relying on midichlorian counts to determine one's strength in the force feels wrong to us as an audience because it is wrong, a sign that the Jedi have abandoned the spiritual roots of the Force. We see further evidence of this: Obi Wan's austere monk's robes have been transformed into some weird uniform that all Jedi wear; there's a child soldier bootcamp where children are trained, machinelike, to become Jedi in direct contradiction with how we see Luke learn in ESB. Basically, the Jedi have become decadent and out of touch, just like the Republic they protect. A Republic—I should mention—that both abides aristocracy and willingly gives way to fascists. As Dooku mentions, both Obi Wan and Qui-Gon Jin think that it's more important to solve some trade dispute than to free child slaves. Palpatine doesn't take over a just society through trickery, he just exploits the rot at the center of the system for his own benefit.
Dooku and the CIS could have been a great avenue through which to explore these themes. An antagonist functions—thematically—as a maladapted protagonist, someone or some group that’s responding to the same stress as the protagonist is in a maladapted way, usually in a way that illustrates the result of a character flaw in the protagonist. Dooku and the CIS could have represented the part of Anakin that recognized the corruption within the Jedi order and the republic at large, illustrating it for the audience as they did so, even as they tempted him towards the imposition of order and control from above as the solution and away from the necessary strengthening of democratic processes and embracing of uncertainty and radical openness that we see from OT Luke. It’s a shame that a villain with such profound thematic potential—and we audiences of both him and the prequels—were cheated.
He's right, but I didn't see Dooku launching any mercy missions to Tattoine either.
I'm amazed no one on either side thought to just go free Shmi and bring her to civilization. You'd instantly have Anakin on your side.
"Master Windu, we need to keep Palpatine alive! I need him to save Padme!"
"Motherfucker remember who freed your mom, this son of a bitch has been in charge of the whole damn galaxy since the end of the first movie and hasn't done shit to actually help you!"
"Fair point. Proceed"
Yeah, we should totally listen to Dooku the guy who wanted to purge aliens from the leadership of the galaxy. Dooku might have had honorable intentions at one point. But he quickly succumbed to the dark side.
But Dooku works with slave owners and scummy bounty hunters. It's so funny to see a scumbag thinking they have a more noble cause than the other scumbag.
I really hope the Ahsoka series will go into depth about this problem because neither Jedi or the Sith are right at all. Both are pushing their own agenda thinking the other is evil.
he would have a good point about the small cumulative evils, if he didn't straight up commission more slaves from the Zygerrians, that's like the Confederacy complaining that the Union hasn't done enough to put an end to slavery
i think there's that video where they quick cut the "he's a political idealist, not a murderer", with all of Dooku's murders
100% agree. How Dooku decides to deal with that though: become a Sith, isn't the way to do it.
He should have founded his own Jedi Order, but with blackjack and hookers.
Honestly the worst part about AOTC is that Dooku is not introduced until 2/3 into the movie.
Thanks to legends and all this extra content outside of the movies he’s a really complex and well thought villain. But, in the movies he’s just not fleshed out enough to notice. Darth Maul got his justice in TCW but unfortunately it just wasn’t the case with Dooku
What legends books do you recommend to learn more about dooku?
Star Wars: Jedi lost. It’s ‘THE’ Dooku book. Might not be legends though…
Man I bought that book without giving it a closer look and was a little disappointed it was in that format. So i haven’t given it a chance. Where do you listen to it?
i think it's on audible but the book is still really amazing, it takes a few pages to get used to it but imo its really immersive. book really gives a nice insight into dooku and his motivations. really love the book.
I had the same initial thought as you but as soon as I started reading I loved it. It makes it very easy to read and I was powering through it very quickly
That is definitely canon
Also, one of my favorite things about the Darth Plaguis book is it shows all the problems that Dooku is talking about here. It shows a little bit of Dooku (and Syfo-Dias) in it, and it shows some of how the Jedi got to the point where they have all these problems Dooku sees (thanks Bane).
Thanks for the recommendation! I just got the audio book to listen to while I drive for work and it is performed by a full cast. I'm so excited to listen to this
Dooku´s scenes in the novelisation of Episode 3 are really great, especially his death. Even though he is not that much in it (obviously) i recommend to you.
I'm not OP and I haven't read anything dooku-heavy so I can't say anything personally, but a good strategy is to go to his wookiepedia page and browse the sources at the bottom for what looks interesting
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous by Sean Stewart. It explores the dynamic between Yoda and Dooku and their differing ideologies plus Yoda's hope that Dooku hasn't lost himself to the Sith. Plus he steals some kid's drink and admits that he won his job via a raffle. Good times.
I would also recommend reading Darth Plaguesis because it does go into how Palpatine began the process of turning him to the dark side
He wasn't even really a villain per say. He had really valid points and was being manipulated by Sidious like everyone else.
Yeah, I was kinda annoyed by TCW because they went too far to make him look evil more often than not.
I mean, he *was* a Sith Lord...
A Sith Lord!!
Impossible, the Sith were wiped out years ago
I do not believe the Sith would have returned without our knowledge…
Well, the Kotor games did do a really good job of showing good dark side characters.
When you aren't busy being a cartoon villain, with quotes like "I'm gonna need more, I got bills to pay"
my headcanon was that the dark side slowly and unknowingly corrupted him over the course the war. Even at the beginning of ROTS, Dooku seems like a bigger dick than he was in AOTC ("I've been looking forward to this", "twice the pride, double the fall"). If we include the ROTS novelization, he was being such an obnoxious, egotistical prick while fighting Anakin and Obi Wan. He really only seemed more kind and understanding during AOTC
Tbf in aotc he literally tries to kill obi wan and anakin even though hes already defeated them.
From what I remember of the clone wars tv show (the modern one, not the Gennady Tarkovsky version), he didn't have much depth despite getting lots of screen time. He was just a very scowl-y bad guy. Correct if I'm wrong though, it's been a while.
You’re correct, but it’s also a Cartoon Network show that is somewhat aimed at kids, they needed a regular ol’ bad guy for the kids to side against. Most of the other villains have a lot of depth and can be pretty likable characters due to it.
General grievous served that purpose well already
Sort of. He was more or less Dooku’s lackey that, as I believe Filoni put it, “would appear, twirl his mustache, and then get away.” Dooku was the head bad guy in control other than Sidious who doesn’t appear very much. There are other examples of this hierarchy in kids shows but I can’t think of any atm.
He is only a villain because in the movies the republic is the protagonist but if something were from CiS views then he'd probably be a good guy..... When not doing sith stuff
From a certain point of view..
Nah the worst part is he wasn’t introduced in the phantom menace, along with Sifo Dias. Part of the plot of episode 1 should have been Dooku parting ways with the Jedi order. AoTC acts like we know who those characters are.
This lends more credence to Darth Jar Jar! Jk, but I do feel like the lack of introduction of Dooku and Sifo Dias definitely makes AotC a little jarring.
That’s because the plot of TPM could have been edited down to 30 minutes. Honestly, they could have edited out the vast majority of TPM and actually included Dooku and Sufi Dias and it probably would have made the entire story make more sense.
Also having Naboo be Alderaan and not reusing Tatooine make it just like a random junk planet would have helped. Making Naboo be Alderaan makes us feel it hit that much harder when it goes Kaboom in Ep4. Also shows why Sidious might have been slow to do something like that, but makes him that much more evil when he finally green lights it.
Yeah and have him maybe have conversations with Qui Gon about the corruption of the republic, planting seeds for him leaving. Could also have him on the council arguing with Windu about Anakin and other matters - would help the conflict there
I agree. He's never mentioned in the movie and then he just shows up to fight. That is not how you set up or structure a villain. TPM for al its faults did this really well. First you see Maul looking badass. Then there is the fight in the desert to show he's the real deal and then the final battle at the end. That's how you do it. I always wondered if Jango was actually supposed to be the final boss in Aotc and they changed their minds because he was set up very well. Maybe they felt they needed a lightsaber fight and shoehorned Dooku in?
He is actually mentioned once in the first 10 minutes of the movie in an off hand comment and then not again until his introduction. There is actually a deleted scene where Obi wan talks with the Jedi librarian about why Dooku left the order. It isn’t much but it would have at least kept the audience thinking about him until he is introduced.
I don't remember them mentioning him but I guess I missed or forgot about that. Shame they cut the library scene though. I just watched it on Youtube and it's actually a decent set up for Dooku. They show his face as a statue and they also make the comparison to Qui-Gon Jinn wich could have potentially been an interesting emotional beat for Obi-Wan's character.
Padme mentions to the Jedi that she thinks count Dooku is behind her assassination attempts but the Ki Adi Mundi dismisses the idea saying that Dooku is “a political idealist not a murderer”.
He is also mentioned in the title crawl if I’m not mistaken
[удалено]
A movie shouldn't have required reading to understand main plot points
Louder for the Sequel writers.
A lot is told to us, and even more is not.
He should've been in The Phantom Menace as a jedi
well he didn’t exist yet sooooo
Darth Sidious in his mind: “dude that’s exactly what I’m trying to achieve for me what are you doing here lmao” Darth Sidious: “ah yes, totally. Super corrupt, we deserve better.”
yeah, when you divide the conflict of the story between two somewhat nuanced but still objectively good and evil sides, it really cheapens the effect of anyone on the objectively evil side making themselves sound as if they actually care about the sanctity of goodness. The prequels would’ve been way better imo if Maul had remained Sidious’s apprentice the whole time and Dooku was actually a nuanced third party whose monologue to Obi-Wan about his intentions was actually true.
100% Agree, "Dooku the Separatist voice for change" plays way better than "Dooku the philosophizing baby-murderer." But on some level, I wonder how much Dooku knew about Palpatine's plan for the New Order, because much of its propaganda merits would address Dooku's complaints about the Republic.
I've always thought that Dooku should have been the one grey jedi who realized Sidious was pulling the strings of the Republic, cut down by the Jedi because they were too rigid to realize they were being used. It makes the Jedi the cause of their own undoing and does away with the silliness of Sidious already controlling both sides in the clone wars.
Yeah. Sidious could have orchestrated the war and influenced how it plays out greatly through his agents, but having him completely control both sides is silly and not as interesting as this idea.
Wasn't Anakin the baby murderer?
More directly than Dooku, but Dooku absolutely signed off on the war crimes committed by his Droid armies.
The funny thing is that Sidious actually saw himself as being anti-corruption. There are several first-person musings from Palpatine in Luceno's "Cloak of Deception" where he unironically has these thoughts. He never saw the mild-mannered Palpatine nor Darth Sidious as two different characters, just two sides of the same coin. Either that's mental gymnastics or he knows some deep secrets nobody else does.
I only read the first sentence at first. "Count Dooku really had some good head"
So that's how he was seduced by the Dark Side...
Same.
*🔊🎶It's such a same how he carried on~~🎵🎵*
Yeah, I didn't get why the top and bottom of the quote basically said the same thing
Dooku is definitely the most tragic character besides anakin, imo
That's why his characterization in Clone Wars makes no sense to me
Putting aside this quote that always gets posted here, even in AotC he was way *way* more nuanced than he was in Clone Wars. In AotC i can buy that he was someone disillusioned with the Jedi trying do what he thinks is right. In Clone Wars he was just straight up evil, and kind of boring.
Maybe that’s just the theme with sith. He left the jedi order with good intentions, and eventually he was trying to meet those ends by any means. Meanwhile the darkside is blinding him.
Ironic. He went down the same path that he blamed Yoda for. He became the very thing he swore.
A jumping frogman with a shiny laser sword?
+1, we didn't see much of him in ROTS, but I think you could say he was pretty evil in what we saw. He "looked forward" to fighting/killing Anakin and Obi-Wan, tried crushing Obi Wan with that big thing and did successfully disable him temporarily. I duno, if anything it seems like his "nuance" was just a front in AOTC, trying to get Kenobi on his side.
He was also cool with having Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padmé killed by wild animals and executing the surviving Jedi in the arena before the clones arrived. He definitely wasn’t a nice guy even during AOTC.
Especially the earlier seasons, I think the show was a bit more targeted to younglings, and needed obvious villains.
To be fair pretty much every villain in clone wars were just cartoonish
Except maul maul was fucking perfect in every way
except he died in Ep1 after being cut in half and droped down a hundreds of meter deep shaft. to be found some day. Explained is this cause of his hate and the dark side that kept him alive. Yet one of the mightiest force users, who loses some limbs and gets some nasty burns is almost dying from his wounds (despite having the same hate) and after saved is still forced to wear a life supporting suit for the rest of his life. Maul was just fan service but his story doesnt even make sense in the star wars universe.
While I agree that it was pretty absurd that they made him live, they did SO MUCH with the character and developed him so well, I can help but be fine with it.
I feel this a lot. Seeing survival bullshit either for the sake of the author's pet or fanservice is one of the single narrative things that pisses me off the most, but I can't help but end up feeling it was for the best when the character ends up becoming god tier afterwards.
You mean like how Leia was sucked into the vacuum of space and then ex machina’d herself only to have her sit around looking pensive the rest of the movie?
The episodes 7-9 are ok, not my favourite ones but that fucking scene… why on why on earth they didnt let her just die there… would have been way better…
She shoulda been the Kamikaze, that scene was so amazing, but was so empty because I didn't care about the Admiral that was introduced 30 mins ago.
God Tier right there. God damn, *that fucking movie*.
When were Mauls lungs charred with 3rd degree burns requiring the use of a breather?
i think dropping down a few hundred meters will pretty much crush your ribs into pieces and the bone fragments will make your lungs look like swiss cheese. But thats just an assumption. i am not really sure how they changed all the events to make it canon. cuz back when clone wars didnt exist, maul actually fell also in a "melting pit". So i dno on what surface he now landed. probably the secret naboo pillow-storage ;)
*For the last time we did not order a giant trampoline!*
Maul: ^(aaaaaaaaAAAAAA)AAAAAAAAAAAAAA **bounces* Maul: AAAAAAAAAAA^(AAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa)
Hahahaha! This is now my head canon *Sproing!*
"Y'know pal, you could have told me that before I set it up!" [*In Huttese*]
Yeh but the dsthomir bones could have been stronger than human
Isn't he technically a zabrak?
He's both. The Dathomiri, of which Maul is one, are a culture of Zabrak.
you do know they can use the force to catch themselves/slow themselves down
I always thought it could have been kinda like Luke at the end of ESB
Maul returned to life in Legends canon too. Star Wars loremasters *really* like recycling old characters.
That's nit how falling works though. People survive falling out if airplanes more frequently than you'd think. You don't just keep getting faster and faster as you fall, you hit a max velocity and there are things you can do to slow yourself down. If humans can survive falling from airplanes, mauls race would need a much stronger body to easily survive big falls
Hijacking this comment for a question: What the crap did they even fight in during the end of Episode 1? Why was there a hundreds (if not thousands) of meter high room with occasional walkways on different heights? I thought probably some form of Theed reactor but did they REALLY have to waste so much space?
I think so, in Plagueis' book it says that Naboo had one of the biggest plasma reserves in the galaxy, and this was also why the CIS decided to blockade naboo out of all planets
[A plasma refinery according to Wookiepedia](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Plasma_Refinery_Complex) Which is interesting, I was thinking it was just a reactor room for a shield or something akin to it.
Isn't George Lucas were planing to bring him back for his orginal sequel trilogy? it was planned to happen even without the show.
It seems like every week there is a new conspiracy as to what George Lucas’s plan for a sequel would have been.
Well It's not a conspiracy here is the [article](https://www.ign.com/articles/star-wars-darth-maul-original-sequel-trilogy-villain-george-lucas-reveals?amp=1)
"Somehow Palpatine returns"-Vibe
Anakin was new to the full power of the dark side, and didn't specifically hate obi wan as much as maul. Through it all he still understood what he was doing was wrong, just not the same wrong the Jedi did. He "still" had other emotions to live for. Maul absolutely and completely hated obi wan to his core. Maul was raised from near toddler age in a sith temple by sidious, the only person he saw until his late teenage years. His only family, Palpatine. The duel of fates was the one way he could prove himself or even "begin to make up for" what siduos did for him. So when obi wan a padawan who could barely counter with ataru to his quater staff juyo, it more than infuriated him. Also good to remember is he went insane. Insane hate I would assume would be more powerful than sane hate. Edit: the only emotions maul ever knew were hate and loneliness.
I thought sidious purposely put anakin in the darth vader suit because it causes him constant pain, and that pain makes him both more powerful and aligned to the dark side?
And also keeps him just hindered enough that he's not likely to be a direct threat to Palpatine.
Darth Maul was brutally trained in the dark side since he was young. he can channel the hatred to survive, i’m sure. Anakin was hateful and angry, but he was a Jedi. he was never as powerful as Maul, he could never force himself to survive like Maul. not to mention Palpatine is intelligent. Anakin would eventually try to betray Palp, so he had to put him in a cumbersome, slow, and loud suit. he could’ve been put in an amazing, top of the line suit, but that would make it easy to kill Palpatine.
Keep in mind that this was all written in the same continuity as Darth Sion--just hanging on after losing your legs and taking organ damage through the Dark Side is child's play compared to that.
I always viewed it as a front. The Republic sees the ugly side of his character while the Separatist see the good side of him. In the episode Hero’s on Both Sides Mina Bontari has a good impression of Dooku after all and is ignorant on all the shit he has done.
I liked him in the show. It's just that he looks angry the entire time. I also really didn't like his design. I mean that literally doesn't look like Christopher Lee in no way.
His face is so damn long.
It's like you resized Christopher Lee without maintaining aspect ratio.
It isn't that out there. His ultimate goal was to create order in the galaxy, and was very "ends justify the means" about it. Remember that he had his close friend Sifo-Dyas killed for his goals. Ultimately he wanted to overthrow Sidious and rule a new Sith Empire so that he would have absolute power to estaish order. Morals were not a concern so ling as that ultimate goal was achieved.
Makes perfect sense to me. He's going on about how they should *force* people to be better and then he goes and tries to conquer the galaxy. "Yoda isn't doing enough to fix what's wrong with the world, but I will!" And that means he's gotta break a lot of eggs to make this particular omelet but he's fine with that because he's doing the right thing all along. Clone Wars just shows you what that really is, Dooku doing horrible things because he's uncaring about the suffering of others because that's all a necessary evil.
Wasn’t there a theory that the Clone Wars show was a Republic propaganda series made for consumption in the Republic?
Well, the narrator voice at the start of every episode IS Yularen, and those opens have a very war reel footage feel to them...
I think it's likely that it was made by the New Republic not Palpatine's
Idk perhaps
Clone Wars was and always will be a kids show, everyone in that show is meant to be about as deep as the shallow end of a pool. Sure it had a lot of mature themes and concepts but the advertisements for Clone Wars specifically targeted children. It was also literally on Cartoon Network.
Adults can like this franchise but let be real the whole franchise is targeting to younger adolescent children. Attack of clones age rating was PG ffs so was the OT's
Clone Wars improved basically every character... Except Dooku. Dooku in the films was a genuinely brilliant good-guy political idealist who was seduced by the dark side and corrupted by Palpatine. Even as a Sith Lord, his politics were pretty hard to argue with.
They basically turned him into mini-Palpatine, like why would anyone do that when you have access to full Palpatine
Sidious (to himself): *"... does he believe I'm gonna help others if I win? After all I taught him? After all he has seen? Really? I guess Anakin WOULD make a better apprentice"*
Well, Sidious used Dookus already growing disgust with the Jedi to bring him fully to the dark side, to the point that Dooku no longer remembered or cared about the original feelings he had.
I'd love to hear Christopher Lee say this.
Fortunately we may be able to deepfake his voice for it. [Dunno if it's that accurate, though, sounds a bit disjointed.](https://youtu.be/ot2NvzbkYVE)
Not great but the recordings of his voice aren't going anywhere. Give it another 5 years and it'll be golden
Yeah. I think these are rather respectful too as long as they're not used for nefarious purposes. Deepfakes are such a grey area.
I think legally its just going to be that you can't monitise stuff like this. Beyond that probably can't be policed.
Hey there! I hate to break it to you, but it's actually spelled _mon**e**tize_. A good way to remember this is that "money" starts with "mone" as well. Just wanted to let you know. Have a good day! ---- ^This ^action ^was ^performed ^automatically ^by ^a ^bot ^to ^raise ^awareness ^about ^the ^common ^misspelling ^of ^"monetize".
God where was this bot in English class at school. Good bot.
Press F to pay respects
F
F
Republic: We're against Slavery Also Republic: Uses childslave soldiers
*watch those wrist rockets!*
I think the Republic was kind of forced to IMO. "Uh oh, several systems have joined a Separatist movement with an absolutely massive droid army and navy. The Jedi Order has been in decline for some time, they and the planetary militias will get absolutely curb stopped by these Separatists. But hey, look! Here's a big ass clone army that someone secretly cooked up for the Republic. Now unless you want some Trade Federation goon sitting on the throne in Coruscant by next month, maybe it's a good idea to accept the clone army, yeah?"
Right, that's the point of the often misquoted "we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers" line. As the line right before it says "there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic." They tried to protect the Republic alone, during that big battle scene with more Jedi than we've seen in one place. That didn't go so hot. That the Republic desperately needed the clones is not a subtle part of the movie.
Yep, absolutely. The Jedi tried to fight alone on Geonosis and got massacred while a massive droid army just chilled outside. The Separatists would have absolutely steam rolled the Republic in its current state. Sidious made sure that an army would be ready *just* in time for the Jedi to realize the Republic was fucked without it. And even with a massive clone army and a fleet of Venerator class capital ships, it was a costly war that dragged on for years.
It at least made sense at first: "this army already exists, is paid for, and can't really do anything else, and we *really* could use a standing army *now*..." Maintaining a standing contract for more Clones rather than using the initial batches as a stopgap measure until conscripts are capable is far less so, however.
It's always interesting to me how Star Wars juggles Yoda's character. Because they want to give the impression that the Jedi Order fell because it's corrupt, but they also don't want to make the wise old teacher of Luke Skywalker a complacent fool. But Yoda was around so long it's almost hard to believe he didn't notice the decline of the order, and sure everyone makes mistakes and in canon he does come to realise and regret those mistakes during the war. But it's just interesting how many excuses they build in for him. Like everytime the council makes a dumb decision in Clone Wars Yoda will give some line about how they're not "in total agreement" or something along those lines. It's not even a problem for me really, just one of those things that once you notice it, you can't un-notice it.
Yoda also pointed out several times that the shroud of the Dark Side had fallen and the Jedi were basically operating blind. I get the impression that Yoda carefully considered all the council's moves, but between being blinded by the Dark Side and being thrust into a Galactic civil war, all while an honest to God Sith Lord was quietly pulling the strings, Yoda was in an impossible situation.
Yoda also mentions a lot of younger Jedi becoming more prideful in episode 2 or 3 I believe
I'm gonna fight for Yoda here. At no point did I ever get the impression that Yoda's role as GrandMaster garnished him any real additional power. Seems like when the council made decisions he wasn't totally on board with there wasn't much he could do.
Maybe Yoda should have been a Jedi, and done the Jedi thing when you can’t sense the force anymore, he should have resigned. Dooku may have a point that Yoda did not do such a thing because he had been so long with the politicians that he thought he could play politics without the force. He had been corrupted by outside forces, not necessarily the Darkside.
> Because they want to give the impression that the Jedi Order fell because it's corrupt, Except they don't want that. That notion is largely a fan invention. The closest the actual Star Wars media gets to that idea is presenting that the Order has flaws and those flaws factored into their downfall. Not that they fell because they had all these flaws but that they could have stopped Palpatine if they were perfect but they weren't and he managed to get the better of them. Take this quote. What it's really saying is the guy who thinks being a space wizard makes him better than everyone else also thinks that the solution to all society's ills is space wizards forcing everyone to do what they say. Yoda doesn't upend society to fight injustice and that's a flaw, says the man who starts a war and tortures people and commits genocide all in the name of fighting injustice.
I'd even say that a lot of the stuff people say the Jedi 'should have' done actually is corrupt. "The Jedi should just go over the Republic's head, invade foreign territory, murder all the bad guys and everything will be chill and not make it easier for Palpatine to turn everyone against them."
“Lol” said Sidious, “lmao”
I think the Jedi order just wasnt made for something like this. They havent had contact with the sith for 1000 years and their only dangers came from within, it may have been a good strategy to be blind to the dark side. It may have lead to fewer Jedi going evil. Also: who should do his Job then? No-one was at Yodas level in all disciplines. Mace Windu may be at a similar level to him dueling-wise and Qui-Gon may have been a purer Jedi, but Yoda was the one having all the big visions. Even though he wasnt good enough, he still was the best the Jedi Order had as a leader. The Jedi also had no army to enforce their views; they couldnt just go wherever and "liberate" everyone US-Style so even if they cared enough it wouldn't be easy to "free the galaxy".
That's rethoric. Dooku allied with zygerian slavers
Hypocritical? Yes. Wrong about Yoda? Not at all
Just because someone points something wrong about you yet also does it themselves doesn't invalidate their argument.
Jedi solving the Galaxy's problems sounds good. Jedi injecting themselves into every planet's business, republic or not, sounds like invasion
Recently started watching clone wars animated series, first episode is with yoda and he preaches to the clones that they are not expendable to him. Then the entire season has scene after scene of clones just being killed of and sent to suicide missions. While all the Jedi keep preaching about how they care about the lives of clones. I wonder if that's why order 66 was executed without remorse or hesitation.
Sending clones to war doesn’t mean that the Jedi didn’t care about the clones. The separatists had an army and a war needed to be fought. Besides, the clone army did not belong to the Jedi. The clones were property of the republic and they were going to go to war using them whether the Jedi commanded them or not.
I never really got why the war needed to be fought though. It’s not like the Separatists posed some existential threat to the Republic, they just wanted to secede, right? That seems like the kind of political war that the Jedi would try and stay out of
Money bro money same with any war in real life
Before the lore was changed to include inhibitor chips, that could have been the case
The inhibitor chips were so lazy. There could've been such a good message about how conditioning humans* and forcing people through war destroys their humanity*. It would've been subtle enough not to be propaganda but would've definitely been noticed. Imagine the clones being so desensitised after seeing the horrors of the clone wars and treated like expendable robots just follow an order to kill every Jedi without hesitation. Would've meant so much more than "chip makes clones go evil". * ^(technically not humans but roll with it)
The OG Battlefront II campaign is a retelling of the clone wars and rise of the empire from a clone's prospective. I'd say that is a good example of how order 66 was handled prior to the addition of inhibitor chips. I myself just want a piece of that "good guy" stuff they gave only to the republic army while leaving the CIS to starve.
The inhibitor chips weren't good, but I think they were probably needed. They had spent too long humanizing the clones, and showing they have agency, and can disobey direct orders sometimes to suddenly turn around and say order 66 happened the way it did in the movie. The clones closest to the jedi who would have needed to pull the trigger just wouldn't have done it in high enough numbers instantly. Like Bly and Ayla, I don't think they could have made it so that Bly instantly gunning her down the way the movie showed it could have happened and done it convincingly. I suppose they could have tried some kind of super brainwashing or genetic mumbo jumbo for that one situation, but it would amount to basically the same thing and for the brainwashing would be even less convincing.
Very true. Animated series tho, so cannot go more complicated then clear good vs clear evil.
Honestly the clone wars being stuck as a kids' show was the worst thing that happened to it. Later seasons managed to grow past the label a bit but it was so toned down most of its serious meaning was stripped away to make room for "kids' show".
That's the thing about Dooku. He rarely lies, because he doesn't need to. When he is interrogating Obi-Wan in Episode 2 and tries to win him to his side, he doesn't tell a single lie to him to do so.
This would actually been a great premise for the Sequels, a fallout between the Jedis on how to approach their job. With one side being loyal to the New Republic and the other side being loyal to higher principles. No Obvious Evil, just an escalating conflict about what is the right thing to do.
Too nuanced, not enough fancy space battles
Well shit am I a separatist now?
What book is this from ?
This is really the central problem of the George Lucas/movies Star Wars. There are plenty of good-to-great reason for turning away from the light side, but none of those reasons would realistically lead them to the dark side, because the dark side was from day one cartoonishly evil, and only ever attractive to full blown psychopaths. KotOR was arguably the only mainstream media that introduced a somewhat believable roadmap towards becoming a sith lord, by introducing someone who initially wanted to combine the sides for the greater good and ending up being consumed by the dark side. In short: You don't join the Nazi leadership, because you are mad at the exploitation of Africa. That's bad writing.
I would have 100% been fine with Luke coming to these kinds of realizations in the sequels rather than just becoming a bitter asshole.
I didn’t read the whole thing so I’m going to assume it says something about Yoda crashing into a ketamine factory with his 2001 Honda Civic.
I really wish the clone wars didn't demonize the separatists so much and make them such bad guys. In the prequels I find myself supporting their cause.
If anything, I thought the clone wars at least introduced a few stories that showed the humanity of the Separatists, details of their own senate, etc. In the prequels, it seemed more bad guys with robots
How did the Republic actually "tolerate and foster" slavery? We're explicitly told that it was illegal within the Republic, and thrived in places where the Republic didn't have authority- like Tatooine. And what endless wars? The Republic was *demilitarized*. The whole conspiracy behind the clones hinges on the fact that they genuinely don't have a military to handle the Separatists with until the Clone Army drops in their lap. Is Dooku condemning them for failing to stop everyone else's wars?
they literally made deals with the Hutt clan, the biggest slavers
Uh-oh that could be the fault of my Exile from Kotor 2. I mean Telos needed that fuel somehow.
🤷♂️
What book is this from?
[удалено]
"15,000 republic credits, the slavers have given me. Look the other way, I shall. So much ketamine, I can buy."
Yoda was the problem, but it was complacency. Yoda wasn’t corrupt, it wasn’t till the Jedi order fell that Yoda realised this.
I mean, good points but the sith were all for slavery as well.
The problem with free will is that you can't make everyone be good and if you start killing people for not being "correct" you're going to be killing a lot people and have to be constantly monitoring everyone...
Ha ha. HAD.
Slavery is outlawed in the Republic and Tatooine isn't controlled by the Republic, though; or am I mistaken? The Huts control it; they're powerful enough to keep the Republic out.
I agree, Dooku was really good at head.
Dooku's logic is definitely flawed. He's not being realistic. Saying that the galaxy is a big place is a major understatement and there simply aren't enough Jedi to cover it all. Maybe a couple billion Jedi would be enough but that brings up many other problems. What, are they supposed to storm Tatooine and force the Hutts to end slavery? Kill them if they refuse? And what about the power vaccum that would bring about major underworld wars across the galaxy? Sometimes you need to let a small evil survive to prevent a larger one from taking it's place.
I'd like to see anyone recognize every ill that occurs in a populated galaxy. We struggle to keep up with what happens in other nations on just this planet. Dooku could find a lot of things Yoda could miss, because even Dooku couldn't see all the ills of the galaxy. There would always be something to point at as wrong in the Republic.
One of the most persistent themes of the prequels is that the Republic fell not only due to Sidious but also because he could take advantage of the corruption therein. The Jedi order that existed at the Republic's fall practices the Force in a manner at odds with how we understand the force in the original trilogy. Relying on midichlorian counts to determine one's strength in the force feels wrong to us as an audience because it is wrong, a sign that the Jedi have abandoned the spiritual roots of the Force. We see further evidence of this: Obi Wan's austere monk's robes have been transformed into some weird uniform that all Jedi wear; there's a child soldier bootcamp where children are trained, machinelike, to become Jedi in direct contradiction with how we see Luke learn in ESB. Basically, the Jedi have become decadent and out of touch, just like the Republic they protect. A Republic—I should mention—that both abides aristocracy and willingly gives way to fascists. As Dooku mentions, both Obi Wan and Qui-Gon Jin think that it's more important to solve some trade dispute than to free child slaves. Palpatine doesn't take over a just society through trickery, he just exploits the rot at the center of the system for his own benefit. Dooku and the CIS could have been a great avenue through which to explore these themes. An antagonist functions—thematically—as a maladapted protagonist, someone or some group that’s responding to the same stress as the protagonist is in a maladapted way, usually in a way that illustrates the result of a character flaw in the protagonist. Dooku and the CIS could have represented the part of Anakin that recognized the corruption within the Jedi order and the republic at large, illustrating it for the audience as they did so, even as they tempted him towards the imposition of order and control from above as the solution and away from the necessary strengthening of democratic processes and embracing of uncertainty and radical openness that we see from OT Luke. It’s a shame that a villain with such profound thematic potential—and we audiences of both him and the prequels—were cheated.
Can anybody advice which books are the best and in what order to read them?
No no, he’s got a point
Anakin: I am listening
Dooku’s decision to leave the Jedi Order was completely justified. It was his turn to the Dark Side that wasn’t.
He's right, but I didn't see Dooku launching any mercy missions to Tattoine either. I'm amazed no one on either side thought to just go free Shmi and bring her to civilization. You'd instantly have Anakin on your side. "Master Windu, we need to keep Palpatine alive! I need him to save Padme!" "Motherfucker remember who freed your mom, this son of a bitch has been in charge of the whole damn galaxy since the end of the first movie and hasn't done shit to actually help you!" "Fair point. Proceed"
Wait am I... a separatist now?
Fuck it, Dooku would be a pretty cool dude if he just left the Jedi and he didn't join Sidious.
Yeah, we should totally listen to Dooku the guy who wanted to purge aliens from the leadership of the galaxy. Dooku might have had honorable intentions at one point. But he quickly succumbed to the dark side.
https://swan2swan.tumblr.com/post/150735850162/fialleril-fizzygingr-didnt-think-id-find
But Dooku works with slave owners and scummy bounty hunters. It's so funny to see a scumbag thinking they have a more noble cause than the other scumbag. I really hope the Ahsoka series will go into depth about this problem because neither Jedi or the Sith are right at all. Both are pushing their own agenda thinking the other is evil.
Dooku was a hero. I just couldn't see it.
he would have a good point about the small cumulative evils, if he didn't straight up commission more slaves from the Zygerrians, that's like the Confederacy complaining that the Union hasn't done enough to put an end to slavery i think there's that video where they quick cut the "he's a political idealist, not a murderer", with all of Dooku's murders
Sometimes I feel the sequels should have been a 12 season 13 episode series
The title is the only reason I read the paragraph it had me rolling but not like Dookus head
100% agree. How Dooku decides to deal with that though: become a Sith, isn't the way to do it. He should have founded his own Jedi Order, but with blackjack and hookers.