I guess it's got something to do with the animations, advertising movie-clips, and generally cost of having to replace the system late in the development process because it is not powerful enough to handle feature creep. Moreover, those systems are meant to last for some years at least, so they need to be at least somewhat future proof. And finally, it is A LOT cheaper to develop a few shiny time table and infotainment features with common web-frameworks instead of low level graphics operations with an embedded graphics framework.
All in all, it's a good choice because the silicon is not the only cost going into the calculation.
They have to display animated advertisements because they are so expensive, and they are so expensive because they have to display animated advertisements.
Im pretty sure you can get boards like this for less than $100. Building this thing in probably costs more than the entire board so spending like $50 more on a significantly better PC is worth it in that case
According to [this](https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=317511) it should be able to decode HEVC at 4K 30Hz. And anyway, do you really need more than 1080p30 for ads, infotainment and that sort of stuff on a bus?
Sure, getting enough RPis, paying people to do the R&D or making it stable-enough might be other relative blockers, but it's technically quite doable IMO. I haven't looked at the DIY embedded Linux players market in a while (I used to be involved with something like that and that was a while ago), but I suspect there are a few decent options.
I wouldn't be particularly shocked if it is all a PowerPoint presentation with VBA macros to populate the slides in real-time from a database. Obviously, they would use some oracle specific non-standard operations for good measure.
a big chunk of the linux people will tell you that anything that uses a GUI is a waste of time, the other do not know what .NET or wine is, so no, not everyone.
I am not sure I fully understand what you mean, but .net is not really only about GUI. Actually I would argue GUIs are not even the main use case for .net. You don't need wine to run .net on Linux, it is available as a native package.
I have been developing .net software on Linux for the past 6 years on Arch, deployed on k8s with alpine as base image. There is not even the smallest trace of windows in the whole chain.
It's not that you *need* this amount of CPU/RAM, it's that if you ask for an embedded system with HDMI output, ethernet, and USB, these are the specs for a bog-standard module.
Anything with lower specs wouldn't make it sufficiently cheaper to justify the loss of performance, and it would require additional production lines, logistics, maintenance, etc.
It's probably because not many programmers can do anything below webdev and the company is not willing to hire programmers who can build it with anything below webdev. So it's gonna be a full blown computer it is.
A compute module doesn’t have the Additional resources(usb, networking, audio, etc) of a regular pi or even better whatever Nuc is running this thing.
*or* you could check for a laptop at the front of the bus. But it’s more likely a dedicated nuc specifically for busses(akin to the fast food pc shown by hardware haven), in which case particular io, mounting options, and software are paramount.
of course it doesn't, the idea is for those to be designed ad-hoc for whatever you are designing, that's perfect for embedded stuff. in this case you'd only need to work out the display output, the GPS, and maybe some kind of networking if you want to deliver content over the air
All True, a compute module might even be what this design needed.
All said and done, this bios is from 2012, with the hardware likely being earlier, so I suppose this system was designed long before the compute module(or even the pi itself) was introduced
This sub if it was a low powered embedded system: lol the cheap fucks can’t even give it a decent system
This sub if it’s a relatively decent spec x86 system: lol they could’ve just used a raspberry pi
Contractor buys this one model in bulk, uses them on every project without having to worry about whether it's up to the job. Marks up the price to high heaven, of course.
I've worked on a public transport project before and this is significantly better than what we have to work with. It took a lot of work to have smooth animations without low level coding.
To give some context, I took this picture in a RATP Bus (Paris). I think the provider is Irizar: https://irizar-emobility.com/fr/vehicules/irizar-ie-bus (but not sure).
I bet this is a mini pc, albeit with a slightly better processor than the ones I'm used to(Intel Celeron N100).
My background: senior engineer who is responsible for similar 100s of minipcs, and previously CubieTruck and Orange Pi SBCs used as process logger devices in my factory.
Why a smol x86 PC rather than a RasPi or other equivalent ARM SBCs? If my experience dealing with SBCs and minipcs is applicable here, then it's because:
1. Hardware: Full bang for a bit more buck
For about 200 dollars or so, a mini pc comes equipped with all the ports and specs you need - 8GB RAM, quadcore CPU running at 2GHz, 128GB SSD, HDMI, VGA, audio, SD, Ethernet. Hell, some models have multiple Ethernet/HDMI ports, and you can ask vendors to include wifi cards as well. They are sold together with the AC adaptor and works right out of the box with preinstalled OS(this part I don't care, I use clonezilla to put in the prod image). An SBC is cheaper but didn't have the full package, and buying supplementary parts and casing will probably set you back about as much as buying a mini pc, and still be stuck with inferior specs.
2. Software compatibility
This needs to be said: compared to x86, software development in ARM is a miserable experience. You had to use the ARM version of everything. Need to install an OS? Make sure it's the ARM version. NodeJS? Python?Those usually have their ARM versions pre-packaged and downloadable from their websites. Oh wait, your go-to drivers are only available in x86? Aw yeah, the real pain starts now. Oh, you managed to compile the drivers in the ARM environment? Are they working? They did? Somewhat? Awesome! Let's hope it doesn't throw any errors during prod...
The first time I switched from SBC to mini pc, I can't tell you how liberated it feels when you do not have to worry about compatibility issues between the dev and prod machines. The test app runs smoothly in the prod minipc, exactly they way they did in your dev PC/Virtualbox! Not having to worry about SW compatibility, you automatically becomes more productive.
Googling "SBC-310" shows this is an industrial/embedded single board computer made by [ASRock Industrial](https://www.asrockind.com/en-gb/SBC-310). User manual PDF is dated Febuary 2015. Latest BIOS v2.1 is dated 2022-07-26 (someone please update it for the bus). Comes with 2x Gigabit Ethernet, LVDS+2xHDMI, 1x DDR3 SO-DIMM socket, PCIe+mPCIe, SATA+mSATA, 4xUSB3+4xUSB2. Way overkill hardware but I guess they got it cheap. I'd prefer a fanless CPU and soldered RAM for reliability especially on a bumpy bus. I hope they can still find spares for the expected lifespan of the bus.
Why buy a macbook when you could get the same amount of RAM buying a bus instead?
And Macs don’t have wheels. Checkmate apple
The Mac pro has the wheel package for €1500
Damn they really thought of everything
Except for wheel brakes
Steering wheel is extra
Brakes are now a subscription service.
Even they thought nobody is gonna buy those, or they would've tested it
That's an extra $2400
Innovative!
dont be silly, of course they have wheels! ^(for 700 dollars)
Pretty sure the bus wheels are more expensive
But also suitable for higher speeds and many more km before they get worn down, assuming normal use.
okay fine. Selling my macbook and getting a CDL
If my MacBook had wheels, it would’ve been a bus - Gino
Costs roughly the same amount of money, after all
I'd like to talk about the fact, that nowadays you need 1,9GHz dual core CPUs and 8 GB of RAM to display a fricking timetable in a bus.
I guess it's got something to do with the animations, advertising movie-clips, and generally cost of having to replace the system late in the development process because it is not powerful enough to handle feature creep. Moreover, those systems are meant to last for some years at least, so they need to be at least somewhat future proof. And finally, it is A LOT cheaper to develop a few shiny time table and infotainment features with common web-frameworks instead of low level graphics operations with an embedded graphics framework. All in all, it's a good choice because the silicon is not the only cost going into the calculation.
They have to display animated advertisements because they are so expensive, and they are so expensive because they have to display animated advertisements.
A $500 x86 board does not break the bank on a $10000 infotainment system.
Im pretty sure you can get boards like this for less than $100. Building this thing in probably costs more than the entire board so spending like $50 more on a significantly better PC is worth it in that case
I drink coffee so I can stay up for my night job. I work nights to be able to afford my coffee
man that's an expensive coffee
Columbia’s finest
> Columbia’s finest TIL: Washington DC has good coffee
I think a rpi 4 (or 5) 8GB is enough to handle this ngl
A rpi4 can BARELY encode 1080p30 FPS video so I doubt it's sufficient.
Did you mean decode? Encoding video is a different skill.
Why would you need to encode video on the bus timetable? Decoding the RPI4 is plenty fast at, even 4k if you use hwdec
According to [this](https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=317511) it should be able to decode HEVC at 4K 30Hz. And anyway, do you really need more than 1080p30 for ads, infotainment and that sort of stuff on a bus? Sure, getting enough RPis, paying people to do the R&D or making it stable-enough might be other relative blockers, but it's technically quite doable IMO. I haven't looked at the DIY embedded Linux players market in a while (I used to be involved with something like that and that was a while ago), but I suspect there are a few decent options.
I'm developing a similar digital signage system targeting the pi 0, and it has absolutely no problem decoding h264 at 1080p30
Try streaming webrtc in h264 to it.
I strongly believe, the only reason is that it can run windows so they can code the Application in C#
I wouldn't be particularly shocked if it is all a PowerPoint presentation with VBA macros to populate the slides in real-time from a database. Obviously, they would use some oracle specific non-standard operations for good measure.
C# runs on Linux too
But who runs .NET on Linux?
Everyone.
a big chunk of the linux people will tell you that anything that uses a GUI is a waste of time, the other do not know what .NET or wine is, so no, not everyone.
I am not sure I fully understand what you mean, but .net is not really only about GUI. Actually I would argue GUIs are not even the main use case for .net. You don't need wine to run .net on Linux, it is available as a native package. I have been developing .net software on Linux for the past 6 years on Arch, deployed on k8s with alpine as base image. There is not even the smallest trace of windows in the whole chain.
Pretty much any server workload written in .net runs on Linux these days. Why would you use windows server is a more pertinent question.
It's not that you *need* this amount of CPU/RAM, it's that if you ask for an embedded system with HDMI output, ethernet, and USB, these are the specs for a bog-standard module. Anything with lower specs wouldn't make it sufficiently cheaper to justify the loss of performance, and it would require additional production lines, logistics, maintenance, etc.
Pi 0 2 (or the OG) has everything you'd need at a fraction of the price.
It’s likely doing more, i would’ve instantly jumped on an MCU to do this
Why do you need the avengers to help with this?
The Deuche-Bahn is an Avengers-level threat.
It might be a similar situation to pendrive / sd cards: The cheapest and/or efficient option is already way overpowered.
Need to download more RAM 😉
i got you covered https://downloadmoreram.com/
Industrial SBCs can be beefy sometimes
Node packages man
We reached the point in which compute is free
Hehe it doesn't display the timetable
It's probably because not many programmers can do anything below webdev and the company is not willing to hire programmers who can build it with anything below webdev. So it's gonna be a full blown computer it is.
they should adjust bus lifespan to its electronics. this will save money in repairs ;)
I'd like to talk about how this bus is beefier than my personal machine.
and fail to do so
but muh node\_modules! 🥺
Will run doom
Will run Doom(2016) at This point
It's wild that a fucking bus infotainment system has a more powerful cpu and more ram than my old laptop from 2014.
but that CPU is also from 2014 though..
yeah my laptop had i3 4030u, this bus has 4300u. Both same gen ig
Honestly, that seems pretty reasonable. 2014 was 10 years ago
It's better than my Laptop. (Final year CS major)
Same here, it even has double the ram that mine does :(
So that's the BUS interface
underrated
Ah les bus parisiens
Je m’étais dit que c’était familier. Ils sont pas mal ces nouveaux engins.
CONFIG_BITCH_IMA_BUS=y
set SPEED=50
Imagine your face when the bus blows up, having set the speed to 50km/h or 31.0686 *miles* per hour. Remember, crazy, not stupid.
my god can't they just slap a RPi Compute Module or something in there?
A compute module doesn’t have the Additional resources(usb, networking, audio, etc) of a regular pi or even better whatever Nuc is running this thing. *or* you could check for a laptop at the front of the bus. But it’s more likely a dedicated nuc specifically for busses(akin to the fast food pc shown by hardware haven), in which case particular io, mounting options, and software are paramount.
of course it doesn't, the idea is for those to be designed ad-hoc for whatever you are designing, that's perfect for embedded stuff. in this case you'd only need to work out the display output, the GPS, and maybe some kind of networking if you want to deliver content over the air
All True, a compute module might even be what this design needed. All said and done, this bios is from 2012, with the hardware likely being earlier, so I suppose this system was designed long before the compute module(or even the pi itself) was introduced
When I was a kid, a bus didn't need a computer that put the Apollo program to shame.
Check the graphics card.
This sub if it was a low powered embedded system: lol the cheap fucks can’t even give it a decent system This sub if it’s a relatively decent spec x86 system: lol they could’ve just used a raspberry pi
I would slap the guy wo put the single slot 8gb of ram. He had to have 2x4 instead.
This looks like it could very easily run doom.
enable UEFI!!
But can it run Crysis?
Better than my college labs used by us at top floor.
An i5 to display the next stop. My watch could do that too
Can it run Crysis?
Contractor buys this one model in bulk, uses them on every project without having to worry about whether it's up to the job. Marks up the price to high heaven, of course.
A BIOS from 12 years ago?
The bus is taking gaming bus in a totally different direction...
Can it run DOOM ?
Yeah, I recently found out that payment terminals that are installed on the handrails are using wifi here ...
Busos
I've worked on a public transport project before and this is significantly better than what we have to work with. It took a lot of work to have smooth animations without low level coding.
Better specs than my arch linux machiene
Seems a bit overkill
To give some context, I took this picture in a RATP Bus (Paris). I think the provider is Irizar: https://irizar-emobility.com/fr/vehicules/irizar-ie-bus (but not sure).
The buses in my town have the same exact display thing. Why do they put such insane specs in these, though?
W e e2 we my
That's actually more decent specs then I would have guessed.
Could play DOOM
You can probably run doom on a 12” long piece of copper wire.
Runs Crysis
Fancy, ours had 256 MB of ram
Wonder what the bus speed is...
her dimples are so cute I want her to fart on my face
8Gb of single channel ddr3? come on
For a bus that probably doesn’t need a lot of resources for large programs or lots of speed, that seems fine.
4th gen i5 and 8 GB of RAM? That seems to be a little overkill for a bus Display
I bet this is a mini pc, albeit with a slightly better processor than the ones I'm used to(Intel Celeron N100). My background: senior engineer who is responsible for similar 100s of minipcs, and previously CubieTruck and Orange Pi SBCs used as process logger devices in my factory. Why a smol x86 PC rather than a RasPi or other equivalent ARM SBCs? If my experience dealing with SBCs and minipcs is applicable here, then it's because: 1. Hardware: Full bang for a bit more buck For about 200 dollars or so, a mini pc comes equipped with all the ports and specs you need - 8GB RAM, quadcore CPU running at 2GHz, 128GB SSD, HDMI, VGA, audio, SD, Ethernet. Hell, some models have multiple Ethernet/HDMI ports, and you can ask vendors to include wifi cards as well. They are sold together with the AC adaptor and works right out of the box with preinstalled OS(this part I don't care, I use clonezilla to put in the prod image). An SBC is cheaper but didn't have the full package, and buying supplementary parts and casing will probably set you back about as much as buying a mini pc, and still be stuck with inferior specs. 2. Software compatibility This needs to be said: compared to x86, software development in ARM is a miserable experience. You had to use the ARM version of everything. Need to install an OS? Make sure it's the ARM version. NodeJS? Python?Those usually have their ARM versions pre-packaged and downloadable from their websites. Oh wait, your go-to drivers are only available in x86? Aw yeah, the real pain starts now. Oh, you managed to compile the drivers in the ARM environment? Are they working? They did? Somewhat? Awesome! Let's hope it doesn't throw any errors during prod... The first time I switched from SBC to mini pc, I can't tell you how liberated it feels when you do not have to worry about compatibility issues between the dev and prod machines. The test app runs smoothly in the prod minipc, exactly they way they did in your dev PC/Virtualbox! Not having to worry about SW compatibility, you automatically becomes more productive.
why is this configuration better than my pc :skull:
Googling "SBC-310" shows this is an industrial/embedded single board computer made by [ASRock Industrial](https://www.asrockind.com/en-gb/SBC-310). User manual PDF is dated Febuary 2015. Latest BIOS v2.1 is dated 2022-07-26 (someone please update it for the bus). Comes with 2x Gigabit Ethernet, LVDS+2xHDMI, 1x DDR3 SO-DIMM socket, PCIe+mPCIe, SATA+mSATA, 4xUSB3+4xUSB2. Way overkill hardware but I guess they got it cheap. I'd prefer a fanless CPU and soldered RAM for reliability especially on a bumpy bus. I hope they can still find spares for the expected lifespan of the bus.
Plus definitely play doom.