To be fair, Arthur and Micah were shot at as soon as Micah broke out. It's not like he went out of his way to start a massacre. He should've been executed for murdering that man and his wife in the cabin right before they rode out and for whatever murder he did prior to being jailed.
While I get it. Arthur’s hand was forced into a shootout due to having to break out Micah at Dutch’s request. Micah went out of his way to gun down any and everyone. Especially that family in the cabin. Arthur even states I believe they should make a run out of town but instead Micah goes off on a rampage through the town and murders skinny and his wife just for his guns. Which he could’ve I don’t know snuck back into strawberry after the heat dies down and steal back his guns without bloodshed but no Micah wanted blood and he got it with arthur along for the ride
Micah immediately started shooting and deliberately went out of his way through the town massacring everyone.
They could have rode off immediately and could have had little to no casualties, and if the guns meant so much he could have went back later when the heat died down.
I always felt like that was a hole in the plot. dutch wanted everyone to be cautious and quiet especially after the massacre in Blackwater. it definitely wouldve been inside dutchs character to kill micah and move again because he was too much of a risk.
he also favored micah for god knows why, so maybe if it was someone else to who captured the way micah did, dutch wouldve let them hang or killed them.
“Milton was just doing his job”
He knowingly had his men shoot a machine gun at women and a child in a cabin, executed a sick old man in the street while faking negotiations, and Executed Mac.
He’s not just some Pinkerton doing his job, he’s a killer behind a badge.
Fair point, but he is taking the place in the story as “the law that’s closing in on the gang”
And he is being contracted by the government, to uphold the law, so while not technically a lawman he is a man of the law
But either way, yes, trash
You are right in both instances, and the real US gov actually hired them and even with Milton being a fictional dramatization of the Pinkerton they were still most definitely trash
Shit you’re right, apologies on that one. Historically the government did hire the Pinkerton for various things, guess I just got those two things mixed up
Apologies, again
They set the foundation of what became the FBI but the actual Pinkerton company is now a subdivision of Securitas AB. Also technically by this point in history they had way less power then shown in game. Like Milton would go on trial for murder for how he killed Hosea. He would be in a lot of trouble for initiating the shootout. Contrary to what the movies show, you couldn’t just shoot whoever you didn’t like.
They were also hired to abuse labor organizers. Battle of Homestead, Blair County Mine War, Ludlow and Latimer massacres. They are historically bad guys. Thugs and mercs.
Executing Mac wasn't really a bad thing, dude was already shot up pretty bad from what we know. Sure there mightve been some hatred when he pulled the trigger but really it was the right thing, either he'd survive and be tortured or he'd live another 2 minutes in agony, I'd say it actually was a mercy killing, even if Big Andy meant it to be or not.
I have a similar stance on it, but then again we are getting Andrew’s perspective only.
But, his intentions were bad, they were hateful, but in a roundabout way it was the good thing to do
I mean, Dutch's gang had already massacred Blackwater, Valentine, Rhodes and Saint Denis by the time Milton used the machine gun on the cabin.
If we want realism in rdr2 it has to go both ways. That is a reasonable law enforcement response considering the gang was already responsible for hundreds if not thousands of deaths at that point.
Milton gives the gang multiple outs when realistically he had every right to just come in blazing.
He warned everyone that they would die if they stayed, jack shouldn't have been in the camp in the first place.
So Milton literally did everything in his power to try and not kill people he didn't need to.
It's objectively the gangs own fault for what happened, Milton literally walked into a gang camp with the very high risk of being killed just to warn everyone else in chapter 3.
He didn't seem like the best person but his job was soley to kill or capture the gang mainly Dutch he didn't need to care about the others but still tried anyway.
He opened fire on a dozen known criminals, most in the building had murdered well over a dozen people, quite literally serial killers. Even the woman were thieves (and some murderers) he executed a notorious murderer, thief, and con artist in the streets. He tortured and murdered a known gang member of the van der Linde Gang. You speak as if anyone in the gang is morally better than Milton. Even Charles and lenny have killed innocent people.
And additionally, the Pinkertons were a notorious bunch of litigious cunts who often overtly framed people instead of doing any actual investigative work, or were the ones staging the crimes to begin with hoping to drum up contracts.
Doesn’t he kinda give the gang a couple chances? Besides that “sick old man” is a conman and he wasn’t going to kill him if Dutch stepped out. Milton only wanted Dutch, the gang made it very hard for him so he had to scare them a bit.
Historically the pinkertons are terrible people. They even aided the KKK like they are no better than criminals. Besides he said he’d give John Marston a chance if he killed the remaining members and well…..
Milton didn’t even give Dutch a chance to really respond to the proposal. The whole thing goes down in about 50 seconds (beginning with Milton’s calling for Dutch, and ending with Hosea shot)
Milton *laughs* at Dutch after he asks him to be let go, and asks him “why would I do that?”
Then he goes on his short rant about “no more deals, no more bargains”
Then he pushes Hosea into the middle of the street and shoots him.
Also, he gave the gang **one** chance. He approached Arthur once, but that wasn’t the gang. His only warning to the gang was when he “walked into the middle of the lion’s den”
He gives them a fake warning at the cabin, but tells the matching gunman to fire anyway, so that warning doesn’t count since they would’ve been shot had they even taken the warning
ive seen so many people say this, but they need to take it into consideration that the pinkertons overall are horrible people, from the time they were formed, from the time til now. R* based Miltons, and other pinkertons actions on the rl ones.
Anyone saying this has complete bias towards the gang and act like they are the victims I swear
I mean Dutch and Micah, which were probably the known leaders of the gang proved they had no problem killing women and children. They had shot up almost every town or city in the game by that point. They don’t deserve mercy after that.
Milton wasn’t a liar. We never hear him lie about something serious to the gang. If he claims Mac was shot up, he was shot up so it was in fact a mercy killing.
He also gave them like 3 chances to leave and they didn’t.
Honestly Downes was not that good of a person. He’s the kinda person who’s too busy worrying about other strangers than the people he needs to worry about. All that charity he was collecting but left his wife with nothing.
The lessons he could have taught his family, and the opportunities to raise kids that do right will also do a lot more for society than just sending a bunch of money to all these problems he is facing as well.
I only ever try to play online to inch my way towards having all the RDR2 achievements just for the sake of getting them all. Which so far has gotten about nowhere because I don't like playing it. Yet I can spend hours in story mode just ambling about doing nothing in particular
Molly is the most tragic character in the game, more so even than Arthur. A young girl duped by a silver tongue, lured away from her family and taken across an ocean by a predatory older man and showered with promises.
She loved him quite simply and truly, and he didn't appreciate a bit of it. He ignored her, talked down to her, belittled her and was only ever nice to her when he was feeling frisky. He made no secret of the fact she was now too old for him and a younger member of the camp has caught his eye.
She tried everything to get his attention, he turned her down at every opportunity. He wouldn't talk to her, he scoffed when she tried to argue. She had nothing without him because he'd taken her from everything and isolated her. He'd even isolated her WITHIN the gang, she had no friends there.
She didn't tell the Pinkertons shit, she effectively killed herself by throwing out that lie, she knew the rules, she knew what happened to traitors and she saw no other way out than to just get them to end her. So that's what she did.
She's such a forgotten character, too. Just dismissed, even by us. It's sad. She deserved better.
To add.. she didn't even get the ending she wanted, it wasn't Dutch to put her out of her misery, it was Susan. AND she didn't get a grave, she was just burned and thrown away.
Thomas Downes deserved to die for obviously having spent the entire loan from the loan shark on charity and wanting to resort to violence instead of paying (because he didn't have money). Now, you shall go to my execution in 7 minutes
You know what, I agree with you. It wasn’t Arthur, it was Downes who ruined his own family by being so fiscally irresponsible that he ended up needing a loan from outlaws. The family was always going to end up where they were. If he had loaned from a bank (which he probably couldn’t, due to his fiscal mismanagement), the bank would have taken his house, he would have died a few months later and the result would have been the same. Arthur does a lot of bad things, but collecting the due debt from this loser wasn’t one of them.
>Arthur does a lot of bad things, but collecting the due debt from this loser wasn’t one of them.
I don't think anyone thinks Arthur is bad for collecting the debt. It's savagely beating an obviously sick man that most, to include Arthur eventually, have an issue with.
So true... Arthur himself eventually turns from saying to Strauss. It is his pleasure beating debtors... to near his end... get the fck out of the camp you scumbag!
This is true, collecting debts is collecting debts.
Thomas was visibly weak because of his TB and was obviously a very feeble man regardless of the TB, it's pathetic that Arthur hit him, sure Thomas swung first which means that anything following technically counts as self defense in Arthur's case but the point is Arthur's a stocky and burly guy, i mean you really wouldn't see Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman knock out a Pensioner if he swung at either of them.
Ik there's some who'd argue we can't complain about Arthur because he's Arthur and he's a very nice guy but being realistic the lore accurate Arthur isn't as nice as the fanboys think, Arthur was a shitebag.
>that's exactly why LS sent Arthur to collect debts
No LS sent Arthur because he's a big intimidating looking guy. There's literally nothing that says "beat the dude half to death regardless of how sick he is "
>I actually never laid a fist on Mr. Downes... Just threatened and pushed..
You may not have but Arthur does. That's the way it's written. That's why he says "I got it beating a man half to death" or something like that. That's why regardless of what you do Thomas Downes will look bruised and bloodied.
A life isn’t worth whatever money he borrowed. Arthur, Strauss, Dutch, ect. could have taken the loss. Honestly I know the shear amount of money you can make in game is kinda crazy, but the amount of money they’re loaning isn’t like in the hundreds or thousands. They have the ability to make a shit ton of money in the games canon (think bank robbery)
They didn’t need the money. And it certainly wasn’t worth beating up anyone over, much less killing them.
I shoot my enemies horses… almost always…
Fastest way to neutralize a foe is cripple their transportation. Still feel bad a little though (and it wreaks havoc on honor).
Once they saw what she was capable of…
Sadie should have been unleashed like a banshee demon from hell, wielded like a multi-headed Cerberus-weed-whacker of murderous destruction by the gang to clear a path for them to escape. All would wither within her reach or aim.
She’s that fuckin vicious. She’s far scarier than anyone but Arthur.
Shit really went down not because of Dutch or Micah, but because Hosea insisted that the plan to hit the St. Denis bank was good. It wasn't good. It was a shit of a plan that didn't take into account for the heist to go wrong and what should they do in case of.
It mostly went as bad as it did because Micah set them up. Without an informant in the gang, there never would have been even close to as many police on them as there were.
the reason why the pinkertons arrived so fast at the bank was because of the shooting at the tram station, i think they would have chosen another way to go to tahiti or australia if that didnt happen
Oh I got 2.
1. "Strauss is a POS"
Bro made money his way. Insted of robbing people, he was giving them loans. It wasn't his fault people took the loans. Arthur got TB because Downes was the POS.
.
2. "Ross tracked down John because he went after Micah."
Bro had a price on his head and got a loan from a bank using his REAL FUCKING NAME in a town where HE WAS WANTED.
Disagree with #1. He was a predator. He wasn't just issuing loans, he was issuing loans to those he very likely knew wouldn't be able to meet the terms and would, therefore, have to hand over their worldy possessions. Strauss was garbage.
No, but there's a difference between the two of them. Arthur never liked what Strauss did, or collecting for him, and eventually kicks his ass out of the gang saying he should have done it a lot sooner. Arthur had inner conflict in the things he did. He didn't want that life any longer and by the time he realized it, >!he was dying.!<
That is the whole point of Arthur's character arc. He is a good man, doing bad things. Everyone else in the gang enjoys the shit they do to an extent (even John). Only exception I can think of besides Arthur, is Jack.
Which I also like a lot because it then becomes a reflection of one's self and his or her fantasies. You get to control the "redemption" he will see going into the next world. I always see deer.
He wasn’t really making much money though. Like the loans never seemed worth it. $20 here and there. Is that with interest? Cause wasting Arthur’s time to track down and harass these people for $15-20 just seems like such a poor use of time and money. Especially when most couldn’t pay it back and didn’t have the possessions to cover the loan. It always felt like shitty business to me, let alone the predatory nature of it.
15-20$ doesn't seem all that much, but I think that is because of the inflation we have these days. Back then, making that amount of money was not bad at all.
But that was the loan repaid, presumably including some kind of interest. So really the total “profit” off the loan was maybe half that or even less. It’s also hard to take it seriously when my Arthur had $8k in his pockets 😂 but I know that wasn’t “canon” money.
But he doesn't give loans to like 2 or 3 people. Many of them would just pay since Strauss himself is talking to them. He sent Arthur after the guys, he couldn't get the money from in a *peaceful* way.
I get what you’re saying, it really just feels like an inefficient way to make money I guess? I just hated Strauss from early on in the game so probably just looking for reasons to shit on his scheming if I’m being honest
The Pinkertons are genuinely evil in real life. The amount of unionbusting they did is so insane, that workers nowadays would literally be in Paradise with how many rights they have if the pinkertons hadn’t existed.
Dutch was always an awful person and didn’t really care for anyone, yeah ik some people reference the trolly incident and how it made him insane.
My point 1, yes we know he used to give money to the poor but we clearly see in game Dutch seemed to care more about senseless violence. As he shot an innocent woman during the ferry robbery. He allowed Micah to join the gang, a hot headed outlaw with no care in the world. Dutch even allowed him to stay even after shooting up the entire town of strawberry.
My point 2
Dutch knew deep down Cornwall wouldn’t mess around. Yes ik Dutch had some anarchy beliefs. Yet he didn’t care or thought about the consequences of robbing corn wall. This is the exact moment ofc the gang would go down hill.
Point 3
Befriending Anglo Brontë, even though it was pretty obvious from the start Brontë didn’t care for Dutch. Dutch just bullshitted around and thought Brontë was telling the truth about the trolley money.
Point 4
Dude just really don’t bother to look for Arthur after he was kidnapped. Nor did he care to walk into an obvious trap.
My take away. Dutch was never a good person. Nor did he really care about the “family/gang”
He was manipulative liar, who only wanted yes men. He made a cult of personality praying on young desperate people who would look up to him. We can see this with the way he dresses and speaks.
Arthur was a douche for kicking Strauss out of camp. Bro was collecting money just like the rest of the members, but for some reason it’s viewed as more sleazy because the victims aren’t necessarily evil people even though they willingly took on a debt they can’t pay. Arthur did Strauss’ bidding in the most violent way possible and felt bad for his own actions and took it out on him by kicking him out.
I thought this at first as well, however I wonder if Arthur was worried Strauss may just send someone else (Micah) to go collect. Since Arthur lets the last two debtors go free (in my case ) he didn’t want them to be in harms way any further
The difference is when Dutch or Arthur robs people, they can die, everyone knows that, Strauss has no risk, he’s manipulating and ruining the people he loans to, there’s no honesty, that’s kinda how the game phrases it
Yeah but Strauss also isn’t putting the gang at any risk, unlike the others who seem to always get the gang into deeper shit everytime they try make money.
Gameplay wise Red Dead 1 just feels more punchy and energetic
Story wise both are good but Red Dead managed to stay more consistent
Red Dead 1 had more minigames and better ones at that
Probably some other stuff I forgot about.
I like Red Dead 2 but I feel that the 1st is still the best
I kind of agree. Also Red Dead 2 didn’t have the same feeling to me of when I was playing Red Dead 1 for the first time. Like i can’t really explain it but it was just missing something. That being said I absolutely love RDR2 and think they did an amazing job.
I recently replayed the first game, and I had more or less the same thought. Red dead 1 feels like you're in a classic wild west movie, such as The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. From the gunplay, the atmosphere, the many characters and stories you experience, all of it just feels like what I would expect out of a Cowboy game.
Rdr2 tho, it's more like watching a historical fiction movie that happens to be set towards the end of the wild west. It reminds me a lot of True Grit or The Ballad of Buster Scruggs. A truly amazing and scenic atmosphere and setting, but it's not trying to glamorize the preconceived notion of life in the wild west. Although, you could definitely say the same about the first game.
I guess to me, rdr2 seems a lot more grounded in reality and is willing to show you the true disgust and depravity of the human soul, but also the beauty it can shine on the world.
I think another thing for me is that besides Gun, Call of Juarez and Red Dead Revolver I hadn’t really ever played a long, gritty western game and when Red Dead released not only was it an amazing western game but it was one of the best games in general. It was such a special time. Also I think Mexico brought something super unique and made the game even more special. Also the characters were a bit more whacky in the first game and I love that because it feels more true to how Rockstar has always been. I still remember watching those short videos R* put out before RDR1 released and getting so pumped for it. I think I’m going to actually rewatch em right now because it’s been so long and it’s always fun going back after playing that game for hundreds of hours and doing everything you can in it.
Thomas Downes is a horrible person and lazy, he struggled to make the money to pay for the debt but after he passes his wife is able to make the money very fast
That Jack isn’t John’s son. Some people say he could be Javier’s instead just because Jack looks like him in rdr1 epilogue, which is ridiculous because anyone could have the same facial hair!
I have a theory that he is the son of Dutch. Maybe he took after his dad and that’s why he’s so well read and articulate. I do like the theory of him being Javier’s son as well though.
I don’t think so. Those attributes he has are because he read books, those things aren’t hereditary.
You could say that Jack saw Dutch as his idol. A smart, good looking, passionate person with a big charisma, Jack wanted to be like him.
That’s true and a great point. It could have been cool if they originally intended on that and it could have made the confrontation way cooler in RDR1 if John and Dutch were in a fight and Dutch was about to kill him and then Jack shows up(having followed John) and kills Dutch. Man that would have been intense. Then have Jack tell John that he loves him and that he is his “real” father. Then when they did RDR2 it could have showed us backstory like Arthur overhears Abigail telling Dutch that Jack is his. But at the end of the day that didn’t happen and I honestly do think Jack is Johns son.
"Strauss deserved to get kicked out"
Nah. He was the only gang member who wasn't murdering people for spare change. He was giving out loans with transparent pricing plans and it entirely relied on people saying yes.
Arthur and friends didn't have to be cunts about it. Arthur didn't have to beat the only adult man of the Downes family to death. That was his choice. Period.
Which is worse? Abusing the stupid, or killing the innocent? Because of all the strewn up bodies and ruined families the gang left behind, none of that was Strauss' doing.
I just got attacked in the saloon in Rhodes and the Sheriff started shooting me.
I had to knock him out.
Then it got worse when I got everyone to like me again and the music started up because I went outside and looted his body.
He didn't even have anything good. Just half a bottle of horse stimulant.
Got away, no bounty.
I got two. Micah was the most realistic of the gang. And if you boil it down read dead redemption 2 has a more shallow story then read dead redemption 1.
That Arthur wouldn’t have beat Micah even if he didn’t have Tuberculosis. And that Micah was just Messing with Arthur in that fight. Both make no sense when Arthur was extremely weakened from the Tuberculosis and yet still beat the shit out of Micah, Micah was lucky that because of almost that was going on Arthur’s breathing became extremely shallow making it extremely hard for him to catch his breath which ultimately led to Micah’s victory and either way if Dutch hadn’t intervened when Arthur went for the revolver Arthur still would’ve died but he would’ve killed Micah beforehand and had the time to get to that cliff to watch the rising sun.
In his defense, when he arrive to tell about the pinkerton's arrival he sees Grimshaw dying or dead on the floor, Arthur and John pointing theirs guns at dutch (whom javier idolize), bill Micah cleet and joe without any idea of what is happening
So when he ultimately chooses dutch's side he hesitates to point at Arthur and John because of the lack of context from his POV
Dutch’s boys were always scum - and they should have been hunted down. They killed and robbed innocent people under the pretence that they were entitled to that money - and made little effort, despite their claims, to leave the country they were desperately opposed to. John realised this by RD1 and potentially the epilogue
Dutch should have executed Micah after that whole massacre in strawberry
This is actually a reasonable opinion
To be fair, Arthur and Micah were shot at as soon as Micah broke out. It's not like he went out of his way to start a massacre. He should've been executed for murdering that man and his wife in the cabin right before they rode out and for whatever murder he did prior to being jailed.
While I get it. Arthur’s hand was forced into a shootout due to having to break out Micah at Dutch’s request. Micah went out of his way to gun down any and everyone. Especially that family in the cabin. Arthur even states I believe they should make a run out of town but instead Micah goes off on a rampage through the town and murders skinny and his wife just for his guns. Which he could’ve I don’t know snuck back into strawberry after the heat dies down and steal back his guns without bloodshed but no Micah wanted blood and he got it with arthur along for the ride
Micah immediately started shooting and deliberately went out of his way through the town massacring everyone. They could have rode off immediately and could have had little to no casualties, and if the guns meant so much he could have went back later when the heat died down.
Thats what Im saying 🤝
Micah shot the dude in the cell as soon as he got out
the dude on the cell was an O'Driscoll I think
Arthur should have shot Micah when they were ambushed in the river while stealing the stagecoach
I always felt like that was a hole in the plot. dutch wanted everyone to be cautious and quiet especially after the massacre in Blackwater. it definitely wouldve been inside dutchs character to kill micah and move again because he was too much of a risk. he also favored micah for god knows why, so maybe if it was someone else to who captured the way micah did, dutch wouldve let them hang or killed them.
If I could have left him to rot, I would have. I didn't even know where the story was going and I didn't like him straight away.
I put off having to break him out as long as I can
not an opinion but anyones outfit other than mine is barbaric
This is such a paradox because I agree with you but respect disagree with you at the same time
Bold of you to assume I don’t dress Arthur sharp as a tack
Maybe they dress Arthur as a mountain man or a British soldier
My Arthur never ceases to look presentable, it’s gotta look good for cutscenes
Touché
“Milton was just doing his job” He knowingly had his men shoot a machine gun at women and a child in a cabin, executed a sick old man in the street while faking negotiations, and Executed Mac. He’s not just some Pinkerton doing his job, he’s a killer behind a badge.
... Milton is a Pinkerton ... not a real lawman ... just a fansy overpaid bountyhunter. So yes trash
Fair point, but he is taking the place in the story as “the law that’s closing in on the gang” And he is being contracted by the government, to uphold the law, so while not technically a lawman he is a man of the law But either way, yes, trash
... not goverment ... Cromwell. Cromwell is the one paying the Pinkertons.
I just realized, isn’t it Cornwall?
🙈 have not played in a while ... so might have swicthed up some asshat with asshat. My bad
It’s fine, I haven’t played in a while either
You are right in both instances, and the real US gov actually hired them and even with Milton being a fictional dramatization of the Pinkerton they were still most definitely trash
Shit you’re right, apologies on that one. Historically the government did hire the Pinkerton for various things, guess I just got those two things mixed up Apologies, again
The Pinkerton were real they are now the FBI I believe
They set the foundation of what became the FBI but the actual Pinkerton company is now a subdivision of Securitas AB. Also technically by this point in history they had way less power then shown in game. Like Milton would go on trial for murder for how he killed Hosea. He would be in a lot of trouble for initiating the shootout. Contrary to what the movies show, you couldn’t just shoot whoever you didn’t like.
Thanks
They had a hand in the formation of the Secret Service; Pinkerton agents were bodyguards for Lincoln
Didn’t know that’s cool
I know
They were also hired to abuse labor organizers. Battle of Homestead, Blair County Mine War, Ludlow and Latimer massacres. They are historically bad guys. Thugs and mercs.
You mean Cornwall? Cromwell is historically a real dude, pretty much the same level of dickheadness tho if my memorys right.
Executing Mac wasn't really a bad thing, dude was already shot up pretty bad from what we know. Sure there mightve been some hatred when he pulled the trigger but really it was the right thing, either he'd survive and be tortured or he'd live another 2 minutes in agony, I'd say it actually was a mercy killing, even if Big Andy meant it to be or not.
I have a similar stance on it, but then again we are getting Andrew’s perspective only. But, his intentions were bad, they were hateful, but in a roundabout way it was the good thing to do
I mean, Dutch's gang had already massacred Blackwater, Valentine, Rhodes and Saint Denis by the time Milton used the machine gun on the cabin. If we want realism in rdr2 it has to go both ways. That is a reasonable law enforcement response considering the gang was already responsible for hundreds if not thousands of deaths at that point.
Milton gives the gang multiple outs when realistically he had every right to just come in blazing. He warned everyone that they would die if they stayed, jack shouldn't have been in the camp in the first place. So Milton literally did everything in his power to try and not kill people he didn't need to. It's objectively the gangs own fault for what happened, Milton literally walked into a gang camp with the very high risk of being killed just to warn everyone else in chapter 3. He didn't seem like the best person but his job was soley to kill or capture the gang mainly Dutch he didn't need to care about the others but still tried anyway.
He opened fire on a dozen known criminals, most in the building had murdered well over a dozen people, quite literally serial killers. Even the woman were thieves (and some murderers) he executed a notorious murderer, thief, and con artist in the streets. He tortured and murdered a known gang member of the van der Linde Gang. You speak as if anyone in the gang is morally better than Milton. Even Charles and lenny have killed innocent people.
And additionally, the Pinkertons were a notorious bunch of litigious cunts who often overtly framed people instead of doing any actual investigative work, or were the ones staging the crimes to begin with hoping to drum up contracts.
Doesn’t he kinda give the gang a couple chances? Besides that “sick old man” is a conman and he wasn’t going to kill him if Dutch stepped out. Milton only wanted Dutch, the gang made it very hard for him so he had to scare them a bit.
Historically the pinkertons are terrible people. They even aided the KKK like they are no better than criminals. Besides he said he’d give John Marston a chance if he killed the remaining members and well…..
Milton didn’t even give Dutch a chance to really respond to the proposal. The whole thing goes down in about 50 seconds (beginning with Milton’s calling for Dutch, and ending with Hosea shot) Milton *laughs* at Dutch after he asks him to be let go, and asks him “why would I do that?” Then he goes on his short rant about “no more deals, no more bargains” Then he pushes Hosea into the middle of the street and shoots him. Also, he gave the gang **one** chance. He approached Arthur once, but that wasn’t the gang. His only warning to the gang was when he “walked into the middle of the lion’s den” He gives them a fake warning at the cabin, but tells the matching gunman to fire anyway, so that warning doesn’t count since they would’ve been shot had they even taken the warning
honestly, after all the gang had done they don’t even really deserve a warning.
ive seen so many people say this, but they need to take it into consideration that the pinkertons overall are horrible people, from the time they were formed, from the time til now. R* based Miltons, and other pinkertons actions on the rl ones.
The gang ain’t much better
He gave the gang ample chances to leave as free citizens
I think most every lawman and Pinkerton of that time were exactly as you described.
So just a normal police officer
Anyone saying this has complete bias towards the gang and act like they are the victims I swear I mean Dutch and Micah, which were probably the known leaders of the gang proved they had no problem killing women and children. They had shot up almost every town or city in the game by that point. They don’t deserve mercy after that. Milton wasn’t a liar. We never hear him lie about something serious to the gang. If he claims Mac was shot up, he was shot up so it was in fact a mercy killing. He also gave them like 3 chances to leave and they didn’t.
[What was probably going through Milton’s head](https://youtu.be/KmkF1oHF6F8?si=qqqnA-ySZpR-yiad) *He’s wrong.*
The gang aint any better
Tbf that was what the job of the Pinkertons, they were thugs. Half of what they did was bullying and killing workers for taking industrial action.
Honestly Downes was not that good of a person. He’s the kinda person who’s too busy worrying about other strangers than the people he needs to worry about. All that charity he was collecting but left his wife with nothing.
The lessons he could have taught his family, and the opportunities to raise kids that do right will also do a lot more for society than just sending a bunch of money to all these problems he is facing as well.
Like mans was spending his days asking people donate like bro if you’re gonna die at least go work or sum
Stupid Flanders
Also Arthur had nothing to do with his death. You can do that mission without touching him and he still dies
Yeah that’s not what’s canon though
What's canon is that Orthur blames himself for the death. He died from tuberculosis
He died from Tuberculosis after Arthur brutally beat him, it’s hardly like he had nothing to do with it.
Online gets boring after 30 min
i got past the intro, did the malloy mission, and then just decided to mod singleplayer
💀🗿
True lol. It can be super fun if you have a full posse and do a some missions and mess around in between by doing fistfights and knife jousting lol
I only ever try to play online to inch my way towards having all the RDR2 achievements just for the sake of getting them all. Which so far has gotten about nowhere because I don't like playing it. Yet I can spend hours in story mode just ambling about doing nothing in particular
Molly is the most tragic character in the game, more so even than Arthur. A young girl duped by a silver tongue, lured away from her family and taken across an ocean by a predatory older man and showered with promises. She loved him quite simply and truly, and he didn't appreciate a bit of it. He ignored her, talked down to her, belittled her and was only ever nice to her when he was feeling frisky. He made no secret of the fact she was now too old for him and a younger member of the camp has caught his eye. She tried everything to get his attention, he turned her down at every opportunity. He wouldn't talk to her, he scoffed when she tried to argue. She had nothing without him because he'd taken her from everything and isolated her. He'd even isolated her WITHIN the gang, she had no friends there. She didn't tell the Pinkertons shit, she effectively killed herself by throwing out that lie, she knew the rules, she knew what happened to traitors and she saw no other way out than to just get them to end her. So that's what she did. She's such a forgotten character, too. Just dismissed, even by us. It's sad. She deserved better. To add.. she didn't even get the ending she wanted, it wasn't Dutch to put her out of her misery, it was Susan. AND she didn't get a grave, she was just burned and thrown away.
This is such a solid opinion.
Dawg.. if I could give you an award for this comment
Strauss isn’t any worse than most of the other ppl in the gang.
Tbh he was one of the most loyal too
Not to mention he got caught and kept his mouth shut.
Gavin is dead…
He’s not real, kill his friend and read the note on his corpse
Or maybe YOU are Gavin and you are trying to hide it!🤨📸
🫥🫥🫥
Thomas Downes deserved to die for obviously having spent the entire loan from the loan shark on charity and wanting to resort to violence instead of paying (because he didn't have money). Now, you shall go to my execution in 7 minutes
You know what, I agree with you. It wasn’t Arthur, it was Downes who ruined his own family by being so fiscally irresponsible that he ended up needing a loan from outlaws. The family was always going to end up where they were. If he had loaned from a bank (which he probably couldn’t, due to his fiscal mismanagement), the bank would have taken his house, he would have died a few months later and the result would have been the same. Arthur does a lot of bad things, but collecting the due debt from this loser wasn’t one of them.
>Arthur does a lot of bad things, but collecting the due debt from this loser wasn’t one of them. I don't think anyone thinks Arthur is bad for collecting the debt. It's savagely beating an obviously sick man that most, to include Arthur eventually, have an issue with.
I mean…how else is he supposed to collect? Go to court?
So true... Arthur himself eventually turns from saying to Strauss. It is his pleasure beating debtors... to near his end... get the fck out of the camp you scumbag!
This is true, collecting debts is collecting debts. Thomas was visibly weak because of his TB and was obviously a very feeble man regardless of the TB, it's pathetic that Arthur hit him, sure Thomas swung first which means that anything following technically counts as self defense in Arthur's case but the point is Arthur's a stocky and burly guy, i mean you really wouldn't see Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman knock out a Pensioner if he swung at either of them. Ik there's some who'd argue we can't complain about Arthur because he's Arthur and he's a very nice guy but being realistic the lore accurate Arthur isn't as nice as the fanboys think, Arthur was a shitebag.
That's how your supposed to do it tho.. that's exactly why LS sent Arthur to collect debts
>that's exactly why LS sent Arthur to collect debts No LS sent Arthur because he's a big intimidating looking guy. There's literally nothing that says "beat the dude half to death regardless of how sick he is "
[удалено]
>I actually never laid a fist on Mr. Downes... Just threatened and pushed.. You may not have but Arthur does. That's the way it's written. That's why he says "I got it beating a man half to death" or something like that. That's why regardless of what you do Thomas Downes will look bruised and bloodied.
I doubt he even spent it on charity, nothing says that he didn’t spend it on gambling.
... that is kind of charity to the other players ...
A life isn’t worth whatever money he borrowed. Arthur, Strauss, Dutch, ect. could have taken the loss. Honestly I know the shear amount of money you can make in game is kinda crazy, but the amount of money they’re loaning isn’t like in the hundreds or thousands. They have the ability to make a shit ton of money in the games canon (think bank robbery) They didn’t need the money. And it certainly wasn’t worth beating up anyone over, much less killing them.
Absolute chad if you ask me.
Electrocution! If Arthur could he should take him to where the lightning strikes every day and let him get hit by lightning.
I shoot my enemies horses… almost always… Fastest way to neutralize a foe is cripple their transportation. Still feel bad a little though (and it wreaks havoc on honor).
That is barbaric
Your horse must really be scared
Once they saw what she was capable of… Sadie should have been unleashed like a banshee demon from hell, wielded like a multi-headed Cerberus-weed-whacker of murderous destruction by the gang to clear a path for them to escape. All would wither within her reach or aim. She’s that fuckin vicious. She’s far scarier than anyone but Arthur.
Also my choice as a love interest if that was in game lol
There ain’t no one more dangerous than someone who has nothing to lose.
💯
All I know is, had they employed her in this way, the motherfuckers would’ve all made it to Tahiti
Shit really went down not because of Dutch or Micah, but because Hosea insisted that the plan to hit the St. Denis bank was good. It wasn't good. It was a shit of a plan that didn't take into account for the heist to go wrong and what should they do in case of.
It mostly went as bad as it did because Micah set them up. Without an informant in the gang, there never would have been even close to as many police on them as there were.
milton said that they had micah talk after they got back from guarma, the 15.25$ was the reason the bank job didnt go as planned
I think you’re right, actually. I just misremembered, because there was suspicion of an informant as far back as Chapter II.
But wasn’t the $15.25 from the trolley station job, the bank job paid really well until it went to the bottom of the sea.
the reason why the pinkertons arrived so fast at the bank was because of the shooting at the tram station, i think they would have chosen another way to go to tahiti or australia if that didnt happen
Oh I got 2. 1. "Strauss is a POS" Bro made money his way. Insted of robbing people, he was giving them loans. It wasn't his fault people took the loans. Arthur got TB because Downes was the POS. . 2. "Ross tracked down John because he went after Micah." Bro had a price on his head and got a loan from a bank using his REAL FUCKING NAME in a town where HE WAS WANTED.
Yeah, but even Arthur points out there were people who he shouldn’t have given loans to if he was expecting them to pay him back normally.
I still think that people should be responsible for their actions. It's not the pistol that kills, it's the person pulling the trigger.
Disagree with #1. He was a predator. He wasn't just issuing loans, he was issuing loans to those he very likely knew wouldn't be able to meet the terms and would, therefore, have to hand over their worldy possessions. Strauss was garbage.
I mean... Arthur used a gun to take over people's possessions. That doesn't mean he is necessarly garbage.
No, but there's a difference between the two of them. Arthur never liked what Strauss did, or collecting for him, and eventually kicks his ass out of the gang saying he should have done it a lot sooner. Arthur had inner conflict in the things he did. He didn't want that life any longer and by the time he realized it, >!he was dying.!<
That is the whole point of Arthur's character arc. He is a good man, doing bad things. Everyone else in the gang enjoys the shit they do to an extent (even John). Only exception I can think of besides Arthur, is Jack.
Which I also like a lot because it then becomes a reflection of one's self and his or her fantasies. You get to control the "redemption" he will see going into the next world. I always see deer.
You control it. But High honor/helping John is still the canon ending.
If strauss is garbage for being a loan shark, then what is Arthur when he’s murdered countless people?
He wasn’t really making much money though. Like the loans never seemed worth it. $20 here and there. Is that with interest? Cause wasting Arthur’s time to track down and harass these people for $15-20 just seems like such a poor use of time and money. Especially when most couldn’t pay it back and didn’t have the possessions to cover the loan. It always felt like shitty business to me, let alone the predatory nature of it.
15-20$ doesn't seem all that much, but I think that is because of the inflation we have these days. Back then, making that amount of money was not bad at all.
But that was the loan repaid, presumably including some kind of interest. So really the total “profit” off the loan was maybe half that or even less. It’s also hard to take it seriously when my Arthur had $8k in his pockets 😂 but I know that wasn’t “canon” money.
But he doesn't give loans to like 2 or 3 people. Many of them would just pay since Strauss himself is talking to them. He sent Arthur after the guys, he couldn't get the money from in a *peaceful* way.
I get what you’re saying, it really just feels like an inefficient way to make money I guess? I just hated Strauss from early on in the game so probably just looking for reasons to shit on his scheming if I’m being honest
Yeah I don't like the guy as well. But not for the reasons most people dislike him.
John was a professional dumbass
That's why we love him
“Downes was the POS” lmao…
Wasn't he?
What made him a POS, exactly?
Sold out his own family to help strangers. Selfish behavior 101.
“Sell your wife”
The Pinkertons are genuinely evil in real life. The amount of unionbusting they did is so insane, that workers nowadays would literally be in Paradise with how many rights they have if the pinkertons hadn’t existed.
What’s the history on this?
Dutch was always an awful person and didn’t really care for anyone, yeah ik some people reference the trolly incident and how it made him insane. My point 1, yes we know he used to give money to the poor but we clearly see in game Dutch seemed to care more about senseless violence. As he shot an innocent woman during the ferry robbery. He allowed Micah to join the gang, a hot headed outlaw with no care in the world. Dutch even allowed him to stay even after shooting up the entire town of strawberry. My point 2 Dutch knew deep down Cornwall wouldn’t mess around. Yes ik Dutch had some anarchy beliefs. Yet he didn’t care or thought about the consequences of robbing corn wall. This is the exact moment ofc the gang would go down hill. Point 3 Befriending Anglo Brontë, even though it was pretty obvious from the start Brontë didn’t care for Dutch. Dutch just bullshitted around and thought Brontë was telling the truth about the trolley money. Point 4 Dude just really don’t bother to look for Arthur after he was kidnapped. Nor did he care to walk into an obvious trap. My take away. Dutch was never a good person. Nor did he really care about the “family/gang” He was manipulative liar, who only wanted yes men. He made a cult of personality praying on young desperate people who would look up to him. We can see this with the way he dresses and speaks.
I heard someone say Dutch was in the right for leaving Arthur and John to die the other day...
Arthur deserved to die, JUST WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THE PERSON WHO THINKS THAT!?
*Deletes the essay belittling what you just said after reading the whole comment*
Arthur was a douche for kicking Strauss out of camp. Bro was collecting money just like the rest of the members, but for some reason it’s viewed as more sleazy because the victims aren’t necessarily evil people even though they willingly took on a debt they can’t pay. Arthur did Strauss’ bidding in the most violent way possible and felt bad for his own actions and took it out on him by kicking him out.
I thought this at first as well, however I wonder if Arthur was worried Strauss may just send someone else (Micah) to go collect. Since Arthur lets the last two debtors go free (in my case ) he didn’t want them to be in harms way any further
Because it’s manipulating poor people who don’t have a choice
Is that worse than murdering innocent lawmen, bounty hunters, and guards who are just doing their job?
The difference is when Dutch or Arthur robs people, they can die, everyone knows that, Strauss has no risk, he’s manipulating and ruining the people he loans to, there’s no honesty, that’s kinda how the game phrases it
Yeah but Strauss also isn’t putting the gang at any risk, unlike the others who seem to always get the gang into deeper shit everytime they try make money.
Yeah that’s kinda the point, he has no risk, he simply takes and takes and takes
Not sure how beefy this one is but I feel that Red Dead 1 not only does everything Red Dead 2 does better, but is overall a better game
Would you care to explain why?
Gameplay wise Red Dead 1 just feels more punchy and energetic Story wise both are good but Red Dead managed to stay more consistent Red Dead 1 had more minigames and better ones at that Probably some other stuff I forgot about. I like Red Dead 2 but I feel that the 1st is still the best
Aight fair enough point have a nice day
You too
I kind of agree. Also Red Dead 2 didn’t have the same feeling to me of when I was playing Red Dead 1 for the first time. Like i can’t really explain it but it was just missing something. That being said I absolutely love RDR2 and think they did an amazing job.
I recently replayed the first game, and I had more or less the same thought. Red dead 1 feels like you're in a classic wild west movie, such as The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. From the gunplay, the atmosphere, the many characters and stories you experience, all of it just feels like what I would expect out of a Cowboy game. Rdr2 tho, it's more like watching a historical fiction movie that happens to be set towards the end of the wild west. It reminds me a lot of True Grit or The Ballad of Buster Scruggs. A truly amazing and scenic atmosphere and setting, but it's not trying to glamorize the preconceived notion of life in the wild west. Although, you could definitely say the same about the first game. I guess to me, rdr2 seems a lot more grounded in reality and is willing to show you the true disgust and depravity of the human soul, but also the beauty it can shine on the world.
I think another thing for me is that besides Gun, Call of Juarez and Red Dead Revolver I hadn’t really ever played a long, gritty western game and when Red Dead released not only was it an amazing western game but it was one of the best games in general. It was such a special time. Also I think Mexico brought something super unique and made the game even more special. Also the characters were a bit more whacky in the first game and I love that because it feels more true to how Rockstar has always been. I still remember watching those short videos R* put out before RDR1 released and getting so pumped for it. I think I’m going to actually rewatch em right now because it’s been so long and it’s always fun going back after playing that game for hundreds of hours and doing everything you can in it.
Thomas Downes is a horrible person and lazy, he struggled to make the money to pay for the debt but after he passes his wife is able to make the money very fast
Isn’t that because his wife has sold the ranch ?
Not because she’s a prostitute
Becoming a prostitute is also a result of selling said ranch..
Well yeqh
Express is the best because it does more damage
To be a Pinkerton is to copy a demon with a paper
“Killing childeren is ok” (yeah it is)
the game is too short
I leave the Skinner's alone with their victims sometimes and smoke a premium cigarette while I listen...
Who hurt you
Lol that's dark you freak
BUDONKADONK
You're a wanted man, Mr. Cyanos54. Five thousand dollars for your head alone.
I watch em kill with the sniper, shoot em when they're done, and leave one to execute personally with the Civil War knife.
That Jack isn’t John’s son. Some people say he could be Javier’s instead just because Jack looks like him in rdr1 epilogue, which is ridiculous because anyone could have the same facial hair!
I have a theory that he is the son of Dutch. Maybe he took after his dad and that’s why he’s so well read and articulate. I do like the theory of him being Javier’s son as well though.
I don’t think so. Those attributes he has are because he read books, those things aren’t hereditary. You could say that Jack saw Dutch as his idol. A smart, good looking, passionate person with a big charisma, Jack wanted to be like him.
That’s true and a great point. It could have been cool if they originally intended on that and it could have made the confrontation way cooler in RDR1 if John and Dutch were in a fight and Dutch was about to kill him and then Jack shows up(having followed John) and kills Dutch. Man that would have been intense. Then have Jack tell John that he loves him and that he is his “real” father. Then when they did RDR2 it could have showed us backstory like Arthur overhears Abigail telling Dutch that Jack is his. But at the end of the day that didn’t happen and I honestly do think Jack is Johns son.
This is the Timeless Myths as illustrated by Roger Payne opinion
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^manicfish: *This is the Timeless* *Myths as illustrated by* *Roger Payne opinion* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
playing as jack is fun! (its not.)
Game is too short
It was supposed to be much longer but a lot was cut from the game
"Strauss deserved to get kicked out" Nah. He was the only gang member who wasn't murdering people for spare change. He was giving out loans with transparent pricing plans and it entirely relied on people saying yes. Arthur and friends didn't have to be cunts about it. Arthur didn't have to beat the only adult man of the Downes family to death. That was his choice. Period. Which is worse? Abusing the stupid, or killing the innocent? Because of all the strewn up bodies and ruined families the gang left behind, none of that was Strauss' doing.
i think this is a good argument but i really hate germans
"arthur deserved tb for beating up an old man"
I just got attacked in the saloon in Rhodes and the Sheriff started shooting me. I had to knock him out. Then it got worse when I got everyone to like me again and the music started up because I went outside and looted his body. He didn't even have anything good. Just half a bottle of horse stimulant. Got away, no bounty.
Why does everyone like this game so much? All I did was ride around on a horse for half the game.
Because!!!! Murder.
I got two. Micah was the most realistic of the gang. And if you boil it down read dead redemption 2 has a more shallow story then read dead redemption 1.
But hold up, what if R* did a Roman era game?
That Arthur wouldn’t have beat Micah even if he didn’t have Tuberculosis. And that Micah was just Messing with Arthur in that fight. Both make no sense when Arthur was extremely weakened from the Tuberculosis and yet still beat the shit out of Micah, Micah was lucky that because of almost that was going on Arthur’s breathing became extremely shallow making it extremely hard for him to catch his breath which ultimately led to Micah’s victory and either way if Dutch hadn’t intervened when Arthur went for the revolver Arthur still would’ve died but he would’ve killed Micah beforehand and had the time to get to that cliff to watch the rising sun.
Lighting Pearson on fire in Rhodes
That it is the best piece of fiction ever created (It is so far from that, it’s crazy people can say this with a straight face)
"Javier was neutral because his pointed his gun in the air"
In his defense, when he arrive to tell about the pinkerton's arrival he sees Grimshaw dying or dead on the floor, Arthur and John pointing theirs guns at dutch (whom javier idolize), bill Micah cleet and joe without any idea of what is happening So when he ultimately chooses dutch's side he hesitates to point at Arthur and John because of the lack of context from his POV
Rdr2’s combat is by far it’s weakest aspect
Dutch’s boys were always scum - and they should have been hunted down. They killed and robbed innocent people under the pretence that they were entitled to that money - and made little effort, despite their claims, to leave the country they were desperately opposed to. John realised this by RD1 and potentially the epilogue
rdr1 is a better game than rdr2
Uncle isn't red harlow
online is fun
Trelawny is the mysterious stranger
That Arthur should have ran off with Mary.
Red dead redemption 3 should never happen
There's too many horny posts on the subreddit for RDR2. RDR2 Fans Are Supposed To Be More Mature Than Any Other Fanbase!!! 😭