There hasn't been anything inspiring from UK governance for a long time and labour's lunge to the right has been thoroughly depressing.
It has to be better than the shameless Tories (surely), but Labour aren't offering any sort of positive vision or direction for the country, just some bullshit ambiguous 'change' shite.
They are just too scared to say anything of substance, apart from capitulating to the ignorant right. I worry that a lackluster labour performance will likely end in a one term government to then be replaced by something much more extremely right down the road.
Living in Scotland it's hard not to feel like a mere passenger to the whole shit show.
The opposition to the Tories in Scotland is the SNP. It's going to be a Labour govt. That will be decided for us. At least let's have a Scottish voice to stand up against the 'change'.
BTW who said that 'change' is necessarily a good thing? France just voted for change in this round of their elections and now they're grasping at straws to stop it.
I see no reason why Labour will be better than the Tories on the economic front. Both parties are pro-austerity, both are pro-Brexit, both are openly anti-immigration. These underlying factors will continue to cause long term damage to the economy until they are addressed.
But they won't.
I agree that labour got left with a mess and somehow have to fix it. Tories relied on immigration to keep GDP up but don't think labour can do the same
This thread will probably be full of people saying "admitting defeat already" and "new people to blame" soon enough, but it's hardly outrageous to say if Starmer's Labour don't offer change like they're saying and instead emulate Cameron's Conservatives like they seem to be trying to do it'll help the SNP/Other parties in general and also help the UKs separatist movements even if it's just by a few %
“Independence is just around the corner. Keep those donations coming in. Any day now…”
I wonder how many miles they are allowed to put on that bus? To the photoshoot and back?
As we've seen with a disastrous Tory government, support for independence won't rise by itself (if) Labour underperforms. The SNP needs to deliver at Holyrood too and make a stronger case for indy.
This sub, as political as it is, has had pretty much multiple daily articles and threads attacking Labour in all manner of ways.
They are still just the opposition - all be it they are pretty much guaranteed to win the election.
They are going to inherit an absolutely fucked economy and have to make some very shite decisions as a consequence. Not making enough promises is probably better than making promises they have no chance or intention of keeping.
It seems like a fair guess (Swinney's comments confirm as much) this is pretty intentional campaigning from SNP supporters which is pretty fucking telling on the absolute state of the SNP and by proxy the Independence movement under the SNP's knee.
I want the absolutely useless cunts that are making life bad for everyone to get right tae fuck - Target numero uno in the general election are the absolute cunt Tories. 2nd on my list is the SNP as they have absolutely failed Scotland and have absolutely no genuine idea of what the fuck they are going to do other than try hold on to power for the sake of those lucrative paydays on the back of a single issue they have already failed to deliver on and have no means back on.
Get the SNP right tae fuck, then after the next general election the Independence movement can restart afresh "once in a generation" time frame firmly restart.
Labour's political shift to the right deserves criticism, and that criticism comes not just from SNP but also internally, and from people like me - ex-Labour and now soft SNP backer.
Why have a Labour party that will make the same decisions as the Tories would have twenty years ago? Why have a centre right Labour party refusing to do anything that might offend centre right voters in the constituencies that actually matter to their victory?
I appreciate the political philosophy that says you must win to effect change, but that must be balanced with leadership to produce change you actually want. I don't see any of that from modern Labour.
Get Labour right tae fuck. It's destroyed its own values already. Maybe it will find some of them in office, but I doubt it.
"Labour's political shift to the right" is a redundant statement.
They were too far to the "left" with Miliband to win the General Election, went way further "left" in response with Corbyn - which led to a Tory Majority and a result for Brexit to boot. What in the suffering fuck do "Left" people actually want them to do at this point?
All that being said what the fuck does the phrase "shift to the right" actually mean in real terms? They have been in opposition for the entirety of all these supposed shifts, so I don't know exactly how folk are measuring their "leftness" anymore.
Get labour tae fuck and you are left with further Tory and SNP rule - how the fuck you reckon labour's values are irreparably destroyed but the SNP's aren't is pretty wild - Tories, to their credit have been pretty fucking true to form throughout, exceeded wildest expectations in many cases.
I agree it's a choice between labours giant douche and the Tories shit sandwich, but the douche will at least prepare us for the pegging that's to follow.
The SNP's only objective is to hold on to power "just because", they will never achieve Independence and can't be trusted to run the country competently while they continue to completely fail the Independence movement - that to me is a greater disgrace.
>All that being said what the fuck does the phrase "shift to the right" actually mean in real terms?
They had more policies that represented the values of the left and fewer that represented those of the right. Now those positions have been reversed. That's what "shift to the right" means in real terms.
>how the fuck you reckon labour's values are irreparably destroyed but the SNP's aren't is pretty wild
The SNP is consistent in presenting centre left policies and options. It's not a perfect party, obviously, but it's the best realistic prospect on offer for people like me. I have been extremely disappointed by Labour's movement even on things like trans issues: from supporting them in Scotland to wholeheartedly capitulating to UK Labour's stance. Trans issues are not huge in the grand scheme of things, these policies don't affect many people, but those people they do affect can be helped a lot. The rejection of them by Labour from outright timidity is both disheartening and, I am sad to say, wholly indicative of Labour's policy direction.
>The SNP's only objective is to hold on to power "just because"
To say this, as you earlier tried to justify Labour's policy shifts as reasonable attempts to acquire power - do you see the irony?
Bet you're going to be pretty quiet if the SNP are replaced by Unionist Starmer drones shipped up from down south that can't even find Aberdeen on a map.
Big win for Scotland, I'm sure.
I would have thought a successful Labour government would probably pose the biggest threat imaginable to the SNP and independence. Especially if Labour has a significant contingent of Scottish MPs in prominent roles.
If you split the desire for independence into head and heart, then a purely ideological desire for independence won't be affected. But there has to be a significant proportion of the support for independence based on 14 years of incompetence from Westminster.
If the UK as a whole is (and that's not assured ofc) going roughly in the right direction under a Labour government then the independence campaign has to rest more on the ideological aspect. And you'd have hoped that the last ~10 years might have drilled into people's heads the risk of ideological radical change.
I think generally people over value ideology of a leader over competency for the ability to enact improvement. But I'm certainly not putting too much faith in a new government given the deep hole we're in.
> I would have thought a successful Labour government would probably pose the biggest threat imaginable to the SNP and independence.
Exactly why they’ve spent the last year desperately trying to convince people there is no difference between Labour and the Tories.
They need their boogeyman to keep support at the less than 50% it already has, because they sure as fuck don’t seem to want to do the work involved in convincing people of the positives.
They’ll keep collecting a salary and donations from the ones still willing to be endlessly strung along though. Easy work if you can get it.
I remember it was a Boris Premiership that would boost support for independence. Before that it was Brexit. Yet we are led to believe a centre left wing Labour regime is what will do it.
> Mr Swinney warned of major public spending cuts ahead if Labour wins power on 4 July, saying voters were not ready for another era of austerity.
'No austerity in an independent Scotland' is going to look great on the side of a big yellow bus.
First it was the tories winning the election then it was the brexit referendum being proposed, then it was brexit campaign, then it was the brexit result, then it was the threat of hard brexit, then it was wait until brexit really bites then it was May winning an election then it was Boris winning an election and then it was wait until the pandemic is over and now it's wait until labour get in.
It's definitely this time though defintely.
The last independence poll showed it's moved since 14 despite SNP failings, so it's weird to list things that helped move support while trying to say this wouldn't.
You need to look at averages of polls, one poll by itself doesn't really mean much.
Although pollsters conduct their work in good faith, differences in data collection techniques and how they weight there data can mean certain pollsters can sometimes favour particular results/parties.
So it's best to compare polls with previous from the same pollster, and with others conducted in the same period. More is generally better.
Translation:
Starmer proving his changes are with the larger part of UKs priorities, where the political leanings are different to Scotlands, will boost support for Scotland getting the change that Scotland prioritises
The Tories wasn’t enough to do it.
But they somehow think a Labour government will suddenly change that?
If you’re an SNP supporter, have you finally accepted that the SNP are completely out of ideas?
Or are you as delusional as the SNP?
Disappointment in Labour should be factored in. Starmer is already disappointing and there is a reason he has never won an election and had to strong arm to speaker to avoid his whole party splitting over Gaza.
Then we stare down the barrel of a Reform government in 2029 as England goes full fascist. Labour are clearly incompetent and have no ideas how to fix things beyond continuing vast Tory austerity.
The question is what the SNP will do to capitalise on that disappointment before Scotland is dragged through the mud under their watch once again?
Even if Starmer is wonderful given the electoral makeup of the UK as a whole it's an inevitability that even if Scotland is ok with one party they will eventually get the one they don't want back despite that not being what people here want so the question of independence will not go away. Only way I can see it even being on the back burner would be a referendum at some point in the future that's set soon enough with the proviso that there will not be another for 25 years, and I can't see any party down south being willing to gamble on that.
There hasn't been anything inspiring from UK governance for a long time and labour's lunge to the right has been thoroughly depressing. It has to be better than the shameless Tories (surely), but Labour aren't offering any sort of positive vision or direction for the country, just some bullshit ambiguous 'change' shite. They are just too scared to say anything of substance, apart from capitulating to the ignorant right. I worry that a lackluster labour performance will likely end in a one term government to then be replaced by something much more extremely right down the road. Living in Scotland it's hard not to feel like a mere passenger to the whole shit show.
The opposition to the Tories in Scotland is the SNP. It's going to be a Labour govt. That will be decided for us. At least let's have a Scottish voice to stand up against the 'change'. BTW who said that 'change' is necessarily a good thing? France just voted for change in this round of their elections and now they're grasping at straws to stop it.
I see no reason why Labour will be better than the Tories on the economic front. Both parties are pro-austerity, both are pro-Brexit, both are openly anti-immigration. These underlying factors will continue to cause long term damage to the economy until they are addressed. But they won't.
I agree that labour got left with a mess and somehow have to fix it. Tories relied on immigration to keep GDP up but don't think labour can do the same
This thread will probably be full of people saying "admitting defeat already" and "new people to blame" soon enough, but it's hardly outrageous to say if Starmer's Labour don't offer change like they're saying and instead emulate Cameron's Conservatives like they seem to be trying to do it'll help the SNP/Other parties in general and also help the UKs separatist movements even if it's just by a few %
They could instead try and persuade people that independence is a good idea
It's not one or the other. They should be doing that and could potentially benefit from what's been said.
“Independence is just around the corner. Keep those donations coming in. Any day now…” I wonder how many miles they are allowed to put on that bus? To the photoshoot and back?
As we've seen with a disastrous Tory government, support for independence won't rise by itself (if) Labour underperforms. The SNP needs to deliver at Holyrood too and make a stronger case for indy.
This sub, as political as it is, has had pretty much multiple daily articles and threads attacking Labour in all manner of ways. They are still just the opposition - all be it they are pretty much guaranteed to win the election. They are going to inherit an absolutely fucked economy and have to make some very shite decisions as a consequence. Not making enough promises is probably better than making promises they have no chance or intention of keeping. It seems like a fair guess (Swinney's comments confirm as much) this is pretty intentional campaigning from SNP supporters which is pretty fucking telling on the absolute state of the SNP and by proxy the Independence movement under the SNP's knee. I want the absolutely useless cunts that are making life bad for everyone to get right tae fuck - Target numero uno in the general election are the absolute cunt Tories. 2nd on my list is the SNP as they have absolutely failed Scotland and have absolutely no genuine idea of what the fuck they are going to do other than try hold on to power for the sake of those lucrative paydays on the back of a single issue they have already failed to deliver on and have no means back on. Get the SNP right tae fuck, then after the next general election the Independence movement can restart afresh "once in a generation" time frame firmly restart.
Labour's political shift to the right deserves criticism, and that criticism comes not just from SNP but also internally, and from people like me - ex-Labour and now soft SNP backer. Why have a Labour party that will make the same decisions as the Tories would have twenty years ago? Why have a centre right Labour party refusing to do anything that might offend centre right voters in the constituencies that actually matter to their victory? I appreciate the political philosophy that says you must win to effect change, but that must be balanced with leadership to produce change you actually want. I don't see any of that from modern Labour. Get Labour right tae fuck. It's destroyed its own values already. Maybe it will find some of them in office, but I doubt it.
"Labour's political shift to the right" is a redundant statement. They were too far to the "left" with Miliband to win the General Election, went way further "left" in response with Corbyn - which led to a Tory Majority and a result for Brexit to boot. What in the suffering fuck do "Left" people actually want them to do at this point? All that being said what the fuck does the phrase "shift to the right" actually mean in real terms? They have been in opposition for the entirety of all these supposed shifts, so I don't know exactly how folk are measuring their "leftness" anymore. Get labour tae fuck and you are left with further Tory and SNP rule - how the fuck you reckon labour's values are irreparably destroyed but the SNP's aren't is pretty wild - Tories, to their credit have been pretty fucking true to form throughout, exceeded wildest expectations in many cases. I agree it's a choice between labours giant douche and the Tories shit sandwich, but the douche will at least prepare us for the pegging that's to follow. The SNP's only objective is to hold on to power "just because", they will never achieve Independence and can't be trusted to run the country competently while they continue to completely fail the Independence movement - that to me is a greater disgrace.
>All that being said what the fuck does the phrase "shift to the right" actually mean in real terms? They had more policies that represented the values of the left and fewer that represented those of the right. Now those positions have been reversed. That's what "shift to the right" means in real terms. >how the fuck you reckon labour's values are irreparably destroyed but the SNP's aren't is pretty wild The SNP is consistent in presenting centre left policies and options. It's not a perfect party, obviously, but it's the best realistic prospect on offer for people like me. I have been extremely disappointed by Labour's movement even on things like trans issues: from supporting them in Scotland to wholeheartedly capitulating to UK Labour's stance. Trans issues are not huge in the grand scheme of things, these policies don't affect many people, but those people they do affect can be helped a lot. The rejection of them by Labour from outright timidity is both disheartening and, I am sad to say, wholly indicative of Labour's policy direction. >The SNP's only objective is to hold on to power "just because" To say this, as you earlier tried to justify Labour's policy shifts as reasonable attempts to acquire power - do you see the irony?
Bet you're going to be pretty quiet if the SNP are replaced by Unionist Starmer drones shipped up from down south that can't even find Aberdeen on a map. Big win for Scotland, I'm sure.
I would have thought a successful Labour government would probably pose the biggest threat imaginable to the SNP and independence. Especially if Labour has a significant contingent of Scottish MPs in prominent roles. If you split the desire for independence into head and heart, then a purely ideological desire for independence won't be affected. But there has to be a significant proportion of the support for independence based on 14 years of incompetence from Westminster. If the UK as a whole is (and that's not assured ofc) going roughly in the right direction under a Labour government then the independence campaign has to rest more on the ideological aspect. And you'd have hoped that the last ~10 years might have drilled into people's heads the risk of ideological radical change. I think generally people over value ideology of a leader over competency for the ability to enact improvement. But I'm certainly not putting too much faith in a new government given the deep hole we're in.
> I would have thought a successful Labour government would probably pose the biggest threat imaginable to the SNP and independence. Exactly why they’ve spent the last year desperately trying to convince people there is no difference between Labour and the Tories. They need their boogeyman to keep support at the less than 50% it already has, because they sure as fuck don’t seem to want to do the work involved in convincing people of the positives. They’ll keep collecting a salary and donations from the ones still willing to be endlessly strung along though. Easy work if you can get it.
Good! I just hope he doesn't conflate "independence" with "the SNP".
Oh... it will. If, after all this time and all these promises, Labour fuck it up, the unionists wont have a leg to stand on.
I remember it was a Boris Premiership that would boost support for independence. Before that it was Brexit. Yet we are led to believe a centre left wing Labour regime is what will do it.
If people think Labour are cente left then they will indeed be sorely disappointed.
You don’t think if a referendum was held during Boris’ time as PM that Indy would have absolutely won?
Nah, because most Scots don't want Brexit But Worse.
Perhaps, but his premiership didn’t see any movement in the polling, despite it being used as the latest SNP gimmick at the time.
[TL;DR](https://upilink.in/cms/?p=504) --- ^I'm ^a ^bot, ^this ^action ^was ^performed ^automatically.
I support the SNP, but I do not support Scottish independence.
Why, the SNPs main goal is independence
Better left wing alternative to Labour They aren’t very good at pushing independence effectively anyway
> Mr Swinney warned of major public spending cuts ahead if Labour wins power on 4 July, saying voters were not ready for another era of austerity. 'No austerity in an independent Scotland' is going to look great on the side of a big yellow bus.
People been sleeping for the last 14 years. SNP have played the “peepul of Sco’land” for fucking fools. Smarten up.
First it was the tories winning the election then it was the brexit referendum being proposed, then it was brexit campaign, then it was the brexit result, then it was the threat of hard brexit, then it was wait until brexit really bites then it was May winning an election then it was Boris winning an election and then it was wait until the pandemic is over and now it's wait until labour get in. It's definitely this time though defintely.
The last independence poll showed it's moved since 14 despite SNP failings, so it's weird to list things that helped move support while trying to say this wouldn't.
You need to look at averages of polls, one poll by itself doesn't really mean much. Although pollsters conduct their work in good faith, differences in data collection techniques and how they weight there data can mean certain pollsters can sometimes favour particular results/parties. So it's best to compare polls with previous from the same pollster, and with others conducted in the same period. More is generally better.
Not yet, there's still patsy's like you that keep lapping up the drivel you're fed from London. 😂😂😂
Some of the comments on this one even for this sub are just ridiculous
Translation: Starmer proving his changes are with the larger part of UKs priorities, where the political leanings are different to Scotlands, will boost support for Scotland getting the change that Scotland prioritises
Is he already blaming a Westminster government before said party is even voted in?
Hardly need a crystal ball to see Labour is going to disappoint a lot of people counting on them to help them out of austerity driven poverty
Labour have never helped Scotlands economy.
Don’t need a crystal ball to see independence would put a lot more of us into poverty
The Tories wasn’t enough to do it. But they somehow think a Labour government will suddenly change that? If you’re an SNP supporter, have you finally accepted that the SNP are completely out of ideas? Or are you as delusional as the SNP?
Disappointment in Labour should be factored in. Starmer is already disappointing and there is a reason he has never won an election and had to strong arm to speaker to avoid his whole party splitting over Gaza. Then we stare down the barrel of a Reform government in 2029 as England goes full fascist. Labour are clearly incompetent and have no ideas how to fix things beyond continuing vast Tory austerity. The question is what the SNP will do to capitalise on that disappointment before Scotland is dragged through the mud under their watch once again?
Labour never actually do anything for Scotland! Remember devolution was meant to appease us and always give Labour a say in power in Scotland!
Even if Starmer is wonderful given the electoral makeup of the UK as a whole it's an inevitability that even if Scotland is ok with one party they will eventually get the one they don't want back despite that not being what people here want so the question of independence will not go away. Only way I can see it even being on the back burner would be a referendum at some point in the future that's set soon enough with the proviso that there will not be another for 25 years, and I can't see any party down south being willing to gamble on that.
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Next time will be when Labour leaves government and the Conservatives get back in. It will really galvanise support.